Unpopular opinions

[pika pal]

USUM perplexes me on not wanting to "add" rather than "replace" content compared to previous 3rd-version games: Giratina and the Distortion World didn't do away with Cyrus or Team Galactic in their base or at Spear Pillar, for example. All you would need to do is insert the Ultra Recon Squad throughout Alola akin to Looker's appearances in Platinum (have them investigating Z-Crystals since they have similar energy to Necrozma/the Wormholes), and then perhaps follow-up one of the Lusamine battles with Nebby being taken by Necrozma (drawn to the battle by its evolution power and Lusamine tearing open Wormholes) to lead into the Ultra Necrozma battle.

If you insist on tying things together, Lusamine's reformation could go from a simple purging of Nihilego's toxins to a "dear god I caused this" reaction to Necrozma becoming (to her) a monstrosity (Dusk/Dawn) in tandem with her reaction to her kids having stood up to her lunacy. Not to say this would be better than how her SM self was written but at least it'd keep a flow between the new events instead of just kind of pivoting into new stuff and relegating the old climaxes to "oh and this happened" or haphazard decisions (Lusamine's insanity becomes "okay I had a plan" that still involves freezing a bunch of Pokemon?).

Hell, some of the USUM stuff makes less sense for USUM than Vanilla SM: Rainbow Rocket has to kidnap and brainwash Lusamine to work for them instead of hiring the equally-knowledgeable Faba who sold her out to begin with (which would beg the question why they didn't do the same with N from Unova instead of bringing the obvious-traitor-later Ghetsis onboard). Seeking out SM Lusamine would track because she was a Megalomaniac and much more capable battler for most of the story, and the concern could be down to her potentially joining up with them if she relapsed or simply being in danger to her health since she hadn't recovered from Nihilego yet.

This is why I consider USUM the weakest "third version" games, for a criticism I (to a significantly lesser extent) share with ORAS as remakes over Gen 3 and Emerald; for everything they add, they took away significant parts of the original such that even if they're superior to you, they have major gaps and reasons that prevent them from being OBJECTIVELY better or more up to date game experiences compared to their predecessor at respective release. USUM has a lot of cool battling and catching content, but the story, arguably the strongest suit of SM was definitively a worse one. It stings especially because it makes Gen 7 two halves of a really good Pokemon game rather than one strong whole. One could argue Gen 5 had a similar issue, but B2W2 was always presenting itself as a sequel, not a replacement/definitive edition, so it has less of a "need" to be the previous game but better on story.

And let's be real, if USUM was a thing nowadays it would have just been an expansion pack like Gen 8 and 9 have. The "3rd version" trend was always contentious with Pokemon, but USUM combined the biggest "not a strict improvement" feeling with being on the 3DS, a console that should be capable of DLC if the team was more forward thinking (to ensure the game had Assets able to be accessed and arranged for new maps and such rather than literally copy-pasting a copy into every map as was infamously rumored about Lillie's Model for example). Even if USUM are themselves fine games, in the context of Gen 7 and the Pokemon franchise they reflect some of the worst practices/incompetence by developer and publisher, and I'm willing to bet they contributed to the intensity (not necessarily validity/invalidity) of Gen 8 after them.

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

Saw a lot of comments on the previous page about what direction the franchise should take for sustainability, and I think the solution is pretty simple - reboot every generation from 1-9 before moving on with generation 10. Besides it being a nice 'gesture' before releasing the tenth generation as well as potentially 'fixing' older favourites, it would buy decades of time for the franchise - the typical 3 year cycle for each generation would mean that remaking every generation that exists nowadays would take 27 years (and potentially much longer if Gamefreak/Nintendo stop rushing out games). But alas, production of the generation 10 games are well under way .

 

[R_N]

Hell, some of the USUM stuff makes less sense for USUM than Vanilla SM: Rainbow Rocket has to kidnap and brainwash Lusamine to work for them instead of hiring the equally-knowledgeable Faba who sold her out to begin with (which would beg the question why they didn't do the same with N from Unova instead of bringing the obvious-traitor-later Ghetsis onboard). Seeking out SM Lusamine would track because she was a Megalomaniac and much more capable battler for most of the story, and the concern could be down to her potentially joining up with them if she relapsed or simply being in danger to her health since she hadn't recovered from Nihilego yet.

So I do agree that USUM not changing enough just makes things weird but...

They probably didn't hire Faba (Though he did easily work for them) because he's just a toady and wouldn't have the full pull that Lusamine did in ordering people and stuff around.
And they didn't...really kidnap Lusamine, per say. I mean they kind of did, but only after she herself went up to them to try and get them out. The brainwashing aspect is..still weird, mind you. An unseen Ultra Beast that can knock you out and also brainwash you to serving under Giovanni's will is really weird thing to just throw in there and never follow up on.
But that aside, Giovanni also felt he needed Lusamine because it gave him full access to the entirety of the Aether Foundation's stuff. Hypothetically, they're a world wide foundation, with a lot of pull in addition to their technology.

They didn't do the same to N because N does nothing for them. Ghetsis was the one pulling everything behind the scenes and is the one with the people pushing power and access to whatever other tech and resources he had to begin with; and judging by him having the legendary Pokemon it seems like N didn't even get to keep that. Whatever went down in his Unova was probably pretty bad for N, honestly. It's pretty interesting that Ghetsis is the only one we don't find out about the fallout of where he went. Maxie, Archie, & Lysandre all got pulled under the earth/the sea/the beam and Cyrus got whisked away by Giratina. Ghetsis never says anything, beyond still wanting to use N as a King-puppet.





Also, while I'm here...Lusamine was still a megalomaniac in USUM. Most of that is on the back of not changing 95% of what happened around her up to the climax, but the difference was it was went from "Fuck all this, UBs forever" to "Fuck all of you, I'm the one who knows what I'm doing and whatever I do is the best for everyone". It's honestly part of the reason I'm not as down about Lusamine in USUM as others are; I think it made sense for the character to potentially veer into that direction instead of nihilism and I think USUM's big failing was not doing that more with other characters. If you're going to slightly tweak things, doing tweaks like that can be really interesting.

And, well, since I'm on the subject. I think that....when people talk about USUM Lusamine...they kind of project how she was in the anime? There she's way softer, a smother more than anything, and when she gets nihilego'd she basically becomes a child throwing a tantrum. And I see a lot of people say similar things about her here but it's really not. Not everyone does this, mind you, but I see it enough that it sticks out to me.
She got humbled hard (off screen, annoyingly) and then once in a position where she failed and had to be bailed out by her daughter & friend, Lillie talks it out and she can't run away from that. She gets better, but it's also not instant. If you follow the dialog after that it's a pretty interesting little arc.

"Lillie... It seems that you were right. Right to feel hurt by the suffering of Pokémon. Right to take Cosmog away..."
"Here... You should take these Beast Balls. Put out your hand." "Those are special Poké Balls that we developed with the Ultra Recon Squad's help to capture Ultra Beasts. I know I can trust leaving them in the hands of a Trainer like you."
"With its light stolen from it, Cosmog is... No, SolgaleoUS/LunalaUM is weak. We will take it back to Paradise to care for it. Lillie, you will help also."

She's started to acknowledge that she was extremely wrong, and is starting to make some immediate amends because of it. But she's also still very terse, serious. She still commands LIllie, even if the context makes it a little softer.

Then Rainbow Rocket happens and she tries to take it into her own hands to prevent what would be a disaster from happening again: And fails. Again. And has to be bailed out by Lillie & her friend (& Guzma!) again. ALl her dialog during this sequence is very serious and kind of played somberly; there's none of her fanatacism, she's tired, she's gotta rebuild things, but also she's still putting herself into this and got owned.

This next part you only see if you visit her after that, so it's pretty easy to miss
"I'm in no position to face my children now... I've lost any right to claim that I am protecting Pokémon as well... If I can't be a mother to them, and I'm no longer worthy to be the president of this foundation... then what am I to be?"

"I am Lusamine. I am the president of this foundation and mother to Gladion and Lillie. And while I will pour my love into protecting Pokémon and my children from pain... I will also try to be strong enough to watch over them without interfering from now on. That would be an even more beautiful kind of love, wouldn't you say? I learned to think this way after watching you... young <player>."

She's really going through it now. She acknowledges her wrongs by this point, she wants her children to be allowed to do their own thing, so she tries again to try and be a better person.

And that kind of goes with the Mohn scene where she sees him happy and just...let's him go on.

And you get one more thing to all this
"The Pokémon League... They say that being the strongest Pokémon Trainer is not enough to become Champion. So how about you show me exactly what kind of Trainer you are?"
---
"Caring won't keep the things you love safe. But if you don't care, if you're so hard at heart, you may find you have nothing left to protect... Is that it? Maybe I can understand Lillie a little better now."

You only get this if you defeat Lusamine as a Title Defense opponent (and you need to see the Mohn scene for it iirc). She's still trying to both understand and improve. And still has room to go

I think it's a better end cap for her character, and probably pretty similar to what would happen with Lillie & Lusamine post SM.

On subsequent battles she's got some of her confidence back
"As the president of the Aether Foundation, and as Lillie's mother... I will take you on in battle, <player>!"
but
"Strong and yet kind... No... Perhaps your strength in fact comes from that kindness. Thank you for battling with me. Thank you for being Lillie's friend."
Acknowledges where she has to go.

It could be better, of course. Not being tucked away in side dialogs you can easily miss, having there be more dialog for her in general, show us the conversation between Lillie & Lusamine (if only for Lillie's sake...), don't have her asleep during the entire RR finale so we can have more interplay between her, Lillie & us, etc., ec etc. Many criticisms.
But I don't think Lusamine's character is as terrible in USUM vs SM as some people think. It's fine, of course, if you still don't like the change in direction or liked the SM climax more, there's various reasons why, just...this one very specific view of USUM Lusamine bugged me.

 

[RocketSurgery]

Ultra Sun remains my favorite playthrough of the series due to it being my mono-ghost run and being able to add Marshadow to the team since the event had been done by then, as I've mentioned in various other threads. It was also one of the few games where I learned to RNG manip so I could catch shinies in the ultra wormholes, which was a lot of fun until the circle-pad on my 3DS broke. :(

However, there were several things I felt USUM lacked or preferred in SM:

-I was hoping the Ultra Recon squad would cause the storylines to diverge a lot sooner than they did. It really felt a lot like SM with some minor changes up until near the climax.

-I preferred Kukui being the final boss to Hau, though I don't think USUM should have necessarily used Kukui again. I just really liked Kukui being the Champion stand-in because this was the first league. I'm not sure how they could have topped that in USUM: it would have felt boring if they just did it again, but going with Hau was also just the obvious alternate choice. Maybe the younger Ultra recon squad member should have gradually built an actual team over the course of the story and tried to battle you for the title.

-I liked the Ultra Beast postgame storyline better than Rainbow Rocket. It felt more like an adventure whereas RR was more like a boss rush. Maybe if the villains had been spread out around Alola instead of just in a castle it would have felt more interesting. Also I missed the Electrode in the castle before it reverted to regular Aether Mansion. :(

-The thing that drives me nuts the most, though (which maybe we've covered this in this or another thread before and I just perpetually forget if anyone has had a counterpoint) is that at the climax the Ultra Recon squad already has a Solgaleo/Lunala, making all of the business with Nebby seem pointless. This always felt like a big plothole to me.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Just drop the long walls of text and tell it like it is: You aren't really mad at USUM as a game, deep down. You're mad that you got had by the third version scam one last time. There's nothing wrong with that, I can sympathize. Just direct your anger at the right source (Pokemon's dysfunctional scheduling) instead of all this weird post-hoc rationalizing about how USUM is actually a meaningless rethread or, in the cope's worst form, a straight-up downgrade.

 

[CPU]

Just drop the long walls of text and tell it like it is: You aren't really mad at USUM as a game, deep down. You're mad that you got had by the third version scam one last time. There's nothing wrong with that, I can sympathize. Just direct your anger at the right source (Pokemon's dysfunctional scheduling) instead of all this weird post-hoc rationalizing about how USUM is actually a meaningless rethread or, in the cope's worst form, a straight-up downgrade.

I honestly don't mind USUM as a game and, for what it added, it's definitely more worth paying full price for than any of the "third versions" up through Platinum. It really does add a lot of good QoL aspects to Alola as a whole. I admit that early on while playing it I felt like it would have been better implemented as DLC, but that's probably more from the perspective that it's a possibility than saying that it added less than Emerald/Platinum. I think DLC is a better way of adding "third version"-type content nowadays, though.

I kind of indulged myself with Ultra Sun, transferring in a Porygon Egg (because they made the Porygon gift postgame again) and I think transferring in a Kabuto Egg (because they made some of the fossils version exclusive). I still had a lot of fun, though.

R_N I genuinely don't remember the invisible UB that Giovanni apparently used to brainwash Lusamine? That's wild and kind of stupid???

 

[R_N]

R_N I genuinely don't remember the invisible UB that Giovanni apparently used to brainwash Lusamine? That's wild and kind of stupid???

It's something that's really easy to overlook in the thick of things and I find that when it first comes up people's reactions are "I must have missed a full conversation" and not literally one line

"The president will not awaken for some time. I have used the power of that Ultra Beast to make her sleep... And when she awakens next, she will be a loyal servant to my will!"

like even if it was just Nihilego (which would be weird because this is not how the toxin works) or hell Pheromosa (still doesn't put to sleep but does have a control aspect) like idk bro maybe you could show it to us seems pretty thematically important to Lusamine's character. Hell Nihilego wouldn't be that out of place on your team

And if it's NOT one of those two then there's an entirely separate UB in play here that we don't see, hear about after this, or otherwise acknowledge. It's wild.

 

[CPU]

It's something that's really easy to overlook in the thick of things and I find that when it first comes up people's reactions are "I must have missed a full conversation" and not literally one line


like even if it was just Nihilego (which would be weird because this is not how the toxin works) or hell Pheromosa (still doesn't put to sleep but does have a control aspect) like idk bro maybe you could show it to us seems pretty thematically important to Lusamine's character. Hell Nihilego wouldn't be that out of place on your team

And if it's NOT one of those two then there's an entirely separate UB in play here that we don't see, hear about after this, or otherwise acknowledge. It's wild.

Both Xurkitree and Blacephalon get Hypnosis, so maybe it was intended to be one of them? Either way, it's a weird story beat; Pokémon is usually good at explaining stuff like this at some point.

 

[Hugin]

Just drop the long walls of text and tell it like it is: You aren't really mad at USUM as a game, deep down. You're mad that you got had by the third version scam one last time. There's nothing wrong with that, I can sympathize. Just direct your anger at the right source (Pokemon's dysfunctional scheduling) instead of all this weird post-hoc rationalizing about how USUM is actually a meaningless rethread or, in the cope's worst form, a straight-up downgrade.

Nah, I always do US for my replays instead of Moon, they added a bunch of stuff that makes it a better game, it was worth it for me.

BUT

I am still mad about the story changes. Most of them don't really matter, Ultra Recon is underdeveloped(whatever), but eliminating the climax of Lillie's story and dialing back Lusamine's abuse to "Lillie ran away because her mom was hurting pokemon" really screwed up that whole aspect of the story. And again, there was no reason to do that, it was a change for the sake of making a change.

I seriously wonder if one of the big execs in Japan didn't like the portrayal of an abusive parent in their games and made the writers minimize that element in the sequel.

 

[Pikachu315111]

If you insist on tying things together, Lusamine's reformation could go from a simple purging of Nihilego's toxins to a "dear god I caused this" reaction to Necrozma becoming (to her) a monstrosity (Dusk/Dawn) in tandem with her reaction to her kids having stood up to her lunacy. Not to say this would be better than how her SM self was written but at least it'd keep a flow between the new events instead of just kind of pivoting into new stuff and relegating the old climaxes to "oh and this happened" or haphazard decisions (Lusamine's insanity becomes "okay I had a plan" that still involves freezing a bunch of Pokemon?).

Honestly I was fine with the changes they did to Lusamine in USUM (up until the resolution point). In SM, when it was JUST Lusamine, it makes sense she would just become obsessive over Nihilego and her plan would just be living with them. USUM throws in a new plot element, the Ultra Recon Squad, who came to the Aether Foundation with their problem concerning an Ultra Beast, Necrozma, having stolen the light from their world and is likely going to do the same to the Pokemon World. This addition changes Lusamine's focus to Necrozma, seeing it as a creature in suffering, and not only will she be helping it but as a bonus she'll be saving multiple worlds (but note that the "saving the world" part is just a bonus to Lusamine, she still only cares about the Ultra Beasts)!

So for Lusamine I would pretty much keep everything with in her USUM as is, up until reaching the Alter where her and Guzma are kicked out of Ultra Space (but before Nebby evolves to Solgaleo/Lunala). Instead of having Lusamine injured and terrified, she gets up and is furious that Necrozma would not accept her love. THIS is where they can then move the Lillie confrontation; not off screen, but rather have Lusamine be "alright" but crazy so that Lillie can tell her what a horrible mother she is (of course Necrozma can't accept her love, what love does she have where she doesn't have any for her own children?). This is where you can throw in an extra Lusamine battle (or move the Lusamine battle to here), but eitherway Necrozma soon appears. Still angry as Lusamine, it attacks her, but Lillie jumps in the way of the attack. Seeing Lillie in danger, Lusamine snaps out of her anger and tries shielding Lillie. But before the attack lands, both are teleported away behind everyone else: in their place absorbing the attack is Cosmoem-Nebby. This is when Lillie and the player both play the flutes and Nebby evolves to Solgaleo/Lunala and we have the epic battle between it and Necrozma... only for it to than get absorbed and flees to Ultra Megaloplois. And from here the player is lent the URS's Legendary while Lillie stays behind, feeling like her and Lusamine can finally have a heart-to-heart.

It there's any problem with the story pacing, it's the Ultra Recon Squad. Their added scenes don't really give them that much development time (not to mention the battles with them are disappointing as they only use one Pokemon). They needed more time, better battles, and of course Ultra Megalopolis made into an actual city instead of glorified hallway.

Hell, some of the USUM stuff makes less sense for USUM than Vanilla SM: Rainbow Rocket has to kidnap and brainwash Lusamine to work for them instead of hiring the equally-knowledgeable Faba who sold her out to begin with (which would beg the question why they didn't do the same with N from Unova instead of bringing the obvious-traitor-later Ghetsis onboard). Seeking out SM Lusamine would track because she was a Megalomaniac and much more capable battler for most of the story, and the concern could be down to her potentially joining up with them if she relapsed or simply being in danger to her health since she hadn't recovered from Nihilego yet.

I know R_N already pointed out some stuff, but just wanted to also mention a better way to use Lusamine in the Rainbow Rocket arc that would have left her in a similar situation as in the end of SM (thus keeping the story point of Lillie needing to go with a sick Lusamine to Kanto).

Instead of an invisible Ultra Beast having put Lusamine to sleep, instead Giovanni could have summoned a Nihilego to intoxicate Lusamine which turns her back into her SM personality. Lillie tried to get through to her but she brushes her aside, saying she only needs the Nihilego and fuses with it to become the Mother Beast. Player battles and defeats her, and while stunned Wicke tosses a Beast Ball from a higher platform she's observing from to capture the Nihilego and forcing it to unfuse with Lusamine who falls unconscious. From there you battle Giovanni, defeat him, clear out Rainbow Rocket, and after some time we end on a scene similar to that of SM with Lillie's departure to Kanto.

-The thing that drives me nuts the most, though (which maybe we've covered this in this or another thread before and I just perpetually forget if anyone has had a counterpoint) is that at the climax the Ultra Recon squad already has a Solgaleo/Lunala, making all of the business with Nebby seem pointless. This always felt like a big plothole to me.

I wasn't bothered by that as much. Up until the Alter, you really weren't working with the Ultra Recon Squad, at most you were an interesting subject to observe and at worst you were an obstacle. Their Legendary is the ONLY way for them to get back home, they're not going to give it to just anyone unless they absolutely needed to. After Necrozma fuses with Nebby and its clear only the player and their Pokemon has the strength to go up against it do they acquiesce and give us access to their Legendary to ride to Ultra Megalopolis.

It's something that's really easy to overlook in the thick of things and I find that when it first comes up people's reactions are "I must have missed a full conversation" and not literally one line

"The president will not awaken for some time. I have used the power of that Ultra Beast to make her sleep... And when she awakens next, she will be a loyal servant to my will!"

like even if it was just Nihilego (which would be weird because this is not how the toxin works) or hell Pheromosa (still doesn't put to sleep but does have a control aspect) like idk bro maybe you could show it to us seems pretty thematically important to Lusamine's character. Hell Nihilego wouldn't be that out of place on your team

Huh, weird. I wonder what the Japanese line was, because this is VERY strange. I'm wondering if maybe he said something like "I have used the power of those Ultra Beasts" or just "I have used the energy from the Ultra Beasts", which makes a little bit more sense as he's just saying he used the Ultra Beasts energy instead of a specific Ultra Beast that's apparently in the room with them.

I seriously wonder if one of the big execs in Japan didn't like the portrayal of an abusive parent in their games and made the writers minimize that element in the sequel.

Maybe, they also notably dialed down the "subtle sexualized" tones the original game had at points:

• During the Water Trial, instead of Lana imagining its a hunky male swimmer that needs help, she just says it sounds like a Pokemon needs help.
• During the Grass Trial, instead of the minigame where you're mashing the ingredients together into a goop to a view of Mallow's crotch, she just puts it all in a boiling pot.
• Instead of Lillie going with you to Exeggutor Island to fetch the other flute, only the player is allowed to go (and post game the cave scene between Lillie & the player in SM is replaced with a similar joke scene but it's with the boat captain).

I can see parents complaining about the mature content the game had "hidden" in it and so in USUM decided to dial it back.

 

[R_N]

Nah, I always do US for my replays instead of Moon, they added a bunch of stuff that makes it a better game, it was worth it for me.

BUT

I am still mad about the story changes. Most of them don't really matter, Ultra Recon is underdeveloped(whatever), but eliminating the climax of Lillie's story and dialing back Lusamine's abuse to "Lillie ran away because her mom was hurting pokemon" really screwed up that whole aspect of the story. And again, there was no reason to do that, it was a change for the sake of making a change.

I seriously wonder if one of the big execs in Japan didn't like the portrayal of an abusive parent in their games and made the writers minimize that element in the sequel.

Lusamine's abuse wasn't changed at all.

like just grabbing some random quotes here
Lusamine's speech?

"Ah, <player>. It's been a while since we last saw you..." "Hmm. So you know one another?" "A gifted young Trainer like <player>... And he/she bothers with someone like you?" "How disappointing." "My... You do say such incomprehensible things." "Calling me mother? I don't have any children! Certainly not any wretched children who would run off and reject my love!" "So tell me how you'll save that Pokémon. What can you do, Lillie? You failed to convince me to listen to you. You don't even have the strength of a Trainer. The only thing that you've ever done on your own is steal someone else's research material!"

To this point it's the same in both games. She's flinging some pretty awful abuse here.

USUM:

"It's so terribly unattractive. But know that my fathomless love will save even someone like you... when I protect this entire world from darkness!"
"That's right... I will force Cosmog to use its power, and it may very well die. But if it will save the world for all of my beloved Pokémon, then that is what I will do." "Lillie. I will be using the Cosmog you stole for a great purpose. You have kept it safe until now, and for that... I thank you."

SM:
"You're not beautiful enough for my world... but fine. Since you're here anyway, you can watch me summon my sweet beast. And then...you can leave." "You're right... it probably will die. Because I'm going to force it to use its power whether it wants to or not!"

This one differs, mostly to adjust the context (megalomaniac wanting to save the world by any means beacuse she knows best, to killing, but even then we still have the "You're ugly" and "yeah cosmog will probably die". The most USUM "softens" her words directly to Lillie is it adds a sarcastic thank you (for taking care of the Pokemon i'm about to kill to meet my goals)

So how about Lillie's being forced to wear what her mom picks her?
"Oh. <Player>... Tell me, do you pick out all your own clothes?" Of course I do: "Of course... Most people do, don't they..." My mom does it: "Oh, your mother must have a great sense of style then. I love the way that you dress." "I...I've always just worn the clothes that my mother wanted me to wear.

same in both versions

Lillie making her please to Lusamine
"I don't need your approval, Mother! Or your permission! I will save Cosmog!" "I'm not being foolish or selfish... I am asking you to listen, Mother! Do not sacrifice Cosmog for that beast's sake!" "If you open the Ultra Wormhole, Cosmog will... Cosmog will die!"

"I don't need your approval, Mother! Or your permission! I will save Cosmog!" "Protect this world...? Mother! What is it you're trying to do?!" "Is that why you want Nebby? Is that what you would sacrifice Cosmog for?"

Slightly different second & third line to account for context, but Lillie's basically saying the same thing

"I think...I'll sleep here. In the bed that I once shared with my mother when I was small... Just one last time..."

"I think...I'll stay here. I want to spend some time trying to understand what it is my mother might have been thinking..."

Basically the same, but obviously the context differs a little since in the former Lusamine is seemingly gone forever while the later she's presumably going to come back so she can focus on that then "what if i dont see her again". The great context of "staying in her mother's bed to think about her" is still the same.


"The president... My mother is— She's selfish. She lavishes her love only on those she deems worthy, not caring whether it is wanted or not." "But I will save her. I still have something I need to tell her. And I think I can save Guzma as well."

"The president... My mother is— She's selfish. She decides all by herself what she thinks needs to be done to make other people happy, not even caring what it is they may want..." "But people ought to help one another out! That is what I have learned here in Alola! And that is what I'm going to teach her, too. Then I think we can save Mr. Guzma."

Tweaked the context since, again, Lusamine is now doing something different, but still acknwoledges the selfishness.


Looking through all the text, there's one isntance I can see where they directly softened it up for reasons other than just
"But...but when you took Null and left Aether Paradise two years ago... you left me alone with Mother! She was so bad after you left! If I hadn't had Wicke with me..."

which became

"I'm glad that I finally know why you left. And that you were trying to help Mother and Father. But if you'd just told me that back then..."

A completely different line (Gladion's reasoning was expanded to bring up the Mohn backstory that kicked off Lusamine's obsession with wormholes again). Which is a shame to lose, for sure. But also considering how everything else is the same (up to and including the trophy room) wel I mean. It's still there. All those little details people picked up on before, all those backstory beats, those are still present. & they still have grounding in Lusamine's current obsession.
(and still has a fucking trophy room....like god dang if you wanted to soften lusamine GET RID OF THE TROPHY ROOM)

Hell this line got moved around to accommodate when you pick up Nebby but it's still pretty loaded.
"SolgaleoUS/LunalaUM... No... Nebby. Nebby, you belong with <player> now. He/She will be the one to raise you. Just like any parent should raise their child. He/She will be your father/mother now."


But yes I do agree that gutting Lillie's speech & the trip to exeggutor Island. If they did anything to "soften" Lusamine's abuse it was by just shunting that confrontation off so you basically forget about it with all the Necrozma stuff, especially if you dont do any of the follow ups available after RR.

 

[Ironmage]

It occurred to me that USUM was sort of the last opportunity for Rainbow Rocket's concept to have worked. Gen 7 is when the series began to transition away from supervillain plots for its evil Teams with Team Skull, though Aether Foundation carried itself as a second Team (I always figured that Aether not being directly slotted in was because it was already shown off in the main plot). Teams Yell and Star are beneath the likes of Galactic and Plasma. Trying to skip the Teams of new gens in favour of the person driving the plot of the legendaries still feels like it would be clunky: why would a Rose that successfully contained Eternatus be doing outright villainy? Gen 8/9 also have much less emphasis on parallel worlds as a part of the setting than gens 5-7, so 'antagonists from timelines where they won' would more jarring to suddenly introduce.

 

[pika pal]

It occurred to me that USUM was sort of the last opportunity for Rainbow Rocket's concept to have worked. Gen 7 is when the series began to transition away from supervillain plots for its evil Teams with Team Skull, though Aether Foundation carried itself as a second Team (I always figured that Aether not being directly slotted in was because it was already shown off in the main plot). Teams Yell and Star are beneath the likes of Galactic and Plasma. Trying to skip the Teams of new gens in favour of the person driving the plot of the legendaries still feels like it would be clunky: why would a Rose that successfully contained Eternatus be doing outright villainy? Gen 8/9 also have much less emphasis on parallel worlds as a part of the setting than gens 5-7, so 'antagonists from timelines where they won' would more jarring to suddenly introduce.

On the parallel worlds concept, 5 doesn't really bring it up beyond the meta tie-in for stuff like the Entralink or Old-Save bonuses, it's mainly 6 and 7 where it's raised (and in 6 it's technically conjecture that never gets any chance to be verified because of Zinnia). 7 is the only game where Other worlds are a significant concept in the plot, though 8 still has the Wormholes implicitly because of the Ultra Beasts appearing in the Max Lair. USUM was less the "last" opportunity for them to do Rainbow Rocket as it was written, rather it was the only time in the first place where it would make sense to attempt.

As far as the "person driving the plot" issue, that really only applies to Rose in Gen 8 (and this is assuming they were to use him and not someone like Swordward and Shielbert with either the cover Legendaries or Eternatus due to their Dynamax shenanigans). The Gen 9 Professor would probably fit right in with the other Team Bosses, given their blatant disregard for people or a facet of the Ecosystem isn't very far removed from Magma/Aqua or Ghetsis/SM Lusamine (which I'd expect to be the depiction they'd go with hypothetically given they used Vanilla Maxie/Archie AND that Lusamine being more overtly a villain in Pokemon depiction). Pokemon's not exactly moving away from plots where the ultimate antagonist can be given 1 or 2 faces, Rose was just a bizarre case compared to the outright criminals in previous stories (and this assuming they don't finagle a reason anyway like The Darkest Day ruining Galar to drive Rose out of his world).

 

[PokemonCrusader]

If Gen 1 wasn't first no one would care about it.

If it wasn't first, it wouldn't be the Gen 1 of our timeline. So we have no idea if it would be beloved or not.

 

[Rapti]

Maybe, they also notably dialed down the "subtle sexualized" tones the original game had at points:

• During the Water Trial, instead of Lana imagining its a hunky male swimmer that needs help, she just says it sounds like a Pokemon needs help.
• During the Grass Trial, instead of the minigame where you're mashing the ingredients together into a goop to a view of Mallow's crotch, she just puts it all in a boiling pot.
• Instead of Lillie going with you to Exeggutor Island to fetch the other flute, only the player is allowed to go (and post game the cave scene between Lillie & the player in SM is replaced with a similar joke scene but it's with the boat captain).

I can see parents complaining about the mature content the game had "hidden" in it and so in USUM decided to dial it back.

Ok I can see 1 and mayyyyybe 2 but how is 3 even remotely sexualized?

the Perfume Palace fireworks in gen 6 are more "subtly sexualized" than anything that happens in Executor Island

heck so is the entirety of Zinnia's interactions with the player in ORAS
(which is to say, not even Freud would consider any of these examples sexual at all)

 

[Yung Dramps]

Currently replaying BW2 for the first time in many years, and in the process among many other thoughts I have come to think that its rendition of the Team Plasma grunt theme is legitimately too good. Distractingly so. Consider the fact that the first time you hear this famously awesome jam is as accompaniment to a battle against a singular Level 14 Patrat. And sure, the Pokemon selection steadily improves as you progress further, but you never really quite get an encounter that lives up to how dynamic and intense the music is.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Ok I can see 1 and mayyyyybe 2 but how is 3 even remotely sexualized?

Maybe not sexualized but I felt it was flirtatious.

Currently replaying BW2 for the first time in many years, and in the process among many other thoughts I have come to think that its rendition of the Team Plasma grunt theme is legitimately too good. Distractingly so. Consider the fact that the first time you hear this famously awesome jam is as accompaniment to a battle against a singular Level 14 Patrat. And sure, the Pokemon selection steadily improves as you progress further, but you never really quite get an encounter that lives up to how dynamic and intense the music is.

The true victim of this is the Team Star Grunt them.

The song goes on for about 2:10 minutes before it loops, going through several instrumental segments... not that you'll know as the longest battle of the trainers who use this theme has 2 Pokemon, with most grunts only having one. It takes about 30 seconds to defeat one grunt and if they have you battle a second one they restart the theme so not like you're going to hear the rest unless you don't select a Move.

 

[Worldie]

The song goes on for about 2:10 minutes before it loops, going through several instrumental segments... not that you'll know as the longest battle of the trainers who use this theme has 2 Pokemon, with most grunts only having one. It takes about 30 seconds to defeat one grunt and if they have you battle a second one they restart the theme so not like you're going to hear the rest unless you don't select a Move.

I'm always amazed by how many good bangers SV has.

The game gets a lot of trashing for the performance issues, but man the BGM absolutely bangs. I will fight over the Team Star boss theme (and Cassiopeia's )and pretty much all the Area Zero themes.

I swear i wasn't basically crying during the final Area Zero battle between how much of a banger the theme is and the plot enfolding there. Send help.

 

[SpyderMarz]

Gen 7 is when the series began to transition away from supervillain plots for its evil Teams with Team Skull, though Aether Foundation carried itself as a second Team (I always figured that Aether not being directly slotted in was because it was already shown off in the main plot).

They never really stopped making the supervillain plots, they just switched to making the evil teams secondary in Gen 8. Yes, Team Yell isn't really evil, but SwSh also had Macro Cosmos. Sure, it was a stupid plot, but the evil team was there. Gen 9 had the whole Area Zero plot, and while it wasn't exactly a 'team', The Paradox pokemon/ Paradise Protection Protocol kinda filled that role.

 

[Ransei]

Every "third legendary" of a box art trio got half-assed in their games prior to Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon. ORAS Delta Episode was the sole exception. Giratina was done much better in the Gen 8 games than in Platinum.

 

[Coronis]

Every "third legendary" of a box art trio got half-assed in their games prior to Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon. ORAS Delta Episode was the sole exception. Giratina was done much better in the Gen 8 games than in Platinum.

Can you go into any more detail here? i.e What was half assed about them?

 

[Sultan]

Sword/Shield and Scarlet/Violet are probably worse games on an objective level, but Sun and Moon were the least fun I've ever had with a Pokémon game. The sheer amount of pointless cutscenes that interupt you every minute makes the game border on unplayable to me, and USUM didn't fix this problem so I never played it. Also, I don't know how they fucked up online play in that game so badly when they had gotten it nearly perfectly the previous generation.

 

[pika pal]

Sword/Shield and Scarlet/Violet are probably worse games on an objective level, but Sun and Moon were the least fun I've ever had with a Pokémon game. The sheer amount of pointless cutscenes that interupt you every minute makes the game border on unplayable to me, and USUM didn't fix this problem so I never played it. Also, I don't know how they fucked up online play in that game so badly when they had gotten it nearly perfectly the previous generation.

My issue with them is that they lack Quality of Life features that were plaguing games literally 20 years before (or had been fixed by them depending on the Developer you're looking at). The cutscenes themselves have very flat direction, the character faces have been memed, the lack of voice acting feels very jarring when the framing and direction really feel like they were made with it in mind (Zelda had this issue for a few entries), and of course the fact that the cutscenes are unskippable (FFX, one of the definitive RPG's of the PS2 era, had this particular issue even in re-releases, yet Kingdom Hearts around 1 year after did not).

 

[Ransei]

Can you go into any more detail here? i.e What was half assed about them?

All Rayquaza did in Emerald's plot was fly towards Sootopolis, roar, then leave. Its only other involvement included you trying to summon Rayquaza, to catch Rayquaza, and from a call from May saying she found a green dragon flying about towards Route 131.

Giratina was just shoehorned into the same climax as DP to save the day, with no real build-up, backstory, or explanation behind it until 13 years later with Legends Arceus. Unlike with Legends Arceus, Giratina's lore barely even got fleshed out or explored in Platinum. All we did was enter its home and catch it after it randomly swooped in.

Kyurem, instead of being expanded upon with valuable info over what exactly it had to do with the Original Dragon, and maybe either completing the story of it or explaining why the Original Dragon cannot return, was just used as a plot device to promote the direction of Team Plasma being terrorists. Team Plasma used it as a weapon, and collected a device they found that could have a Kyurem fuse with Reshiram/Zekrom. In the end, Drayden was left to speculate that Kyurem could be the shell of the Original Dragon, but was still unsure. Juniper speculates that if Kyurem was the shell, then whatever fell into Giant Chasm must've been a Dragon Stone, which doesn't make any sense. B2W2 fails to explain on the story of the Original Dragon or flesh out on Kyurem very much, leaving it to be one of the most misunderstood Pokemon ever.

(Reaching off topic but Xerneas/Yveltal were similar to Kyurem except they were used as the fuel to a weapon rather than the weapon themselves, however, they also had significant tie-ins with said weapon in the lore, as the weapon carried some of the main traits of both Xerneas and Yveltal to cause a cataclysmic event in the past. The Ultimate Weapon drained the life of many surrounding Pokemon (Yveltal's normal job), then bestowed a new eternal life to Eternal Floette (Xerneas's capabilites). The remaining energy was left to eject from the weapon, end the Kalosian war, and incidentally create Mega Evolution. Xerneas/Yveltal's energy was the primary fuel for the ultimate weapon as it needed Pokemon life energy to work the first time, and the two are Pokemon life energy at its essence. Unlike with Xerneas/Yveltal, Kyurem's case had nothing to do with its lore. It was just, "it's a powerful ice-type attacker. we can use it to freeze the world")

Zygarde was scattered around Alola to monitor its ecosystem but we've never seen it take any action of its own in the games aside from that, unless we force it to through pure gameplay.

Pokemon Emerald wasn't about Rayquaza. It was about Archie and Maxie aiming to accomplish their goals with Kyogre and Groudon. Rayquaza just swooped by, resolved the climax, and left. The Delta Episode really put a lot more emphasis on Rayquaza.

Pokemon Platinum wasn't about Giratina, but should have been, considering Giratina's interesting backstory about being banned to Distortion World for its own violence. Legends Arceus did this.

Pokemon Black 2 White 2 was not about Kyurem or anything to do with its lore. It was just about Team Plasma striking back as terrorists. Kyurem was just tacked on there because it needed something to do for its game.

Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon were about Necrozma. Necrozma was the main thing going on with the games and your goal was to work around it.

 

[Karxrida]

(FFX, one of the definitive RPG's of the PS2 era, had this particular issue even in re-releases, yet Kingdom Hearts around 1 year after did not).

iirc the original release of the first Kingdom Hearts only lets you skip cutscenes under specific circumstances. I think you have to die to a boss then go rematch them, at which point you can skip the cutscene before the fight. Really bizarre. The ability to skip most cutscenes with no strings attached was only added in the HD version, and even then there's one that you can't skip for some reason. (It's affectionately known as the Unskippable Cutscene That Cannot Be Skipped Because It Is Unskippable.)

But then Kingdom Hearts II (another one of the definitive RPGs of the PS2 era) added a cutscene skip option that is accessed by pausing, so my point is kind of moot lol.