Idk guys the problem with Chien-Pao is more that it's one-dimensional and not whether it's manageable. Chien-Pao has one, maybe two viable sets and both are "Click here to win". It's just that by not choosing Pao you set yourself for a disadvantage. Maybe it's more exploitable than Chi-Yu, but not by much.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Oh god no
Why are you doing this
Meta without Chien-Pao: Meta with x amount of problems/issues
Meta with Chien-pao
: Meta with x+1 amount of problems/issues with Chien-Pao most likely being one of the most toxic and centralizing issues thanks to it's ability to 2HKO pretty much everything and to use Tera Fire against Magearna.
I'm petrified. I will now go cower in fear under a blanket.
Why are you doing this
Meta without Chien-Pao: Meta with x amount of problems/issues
Meta with Chien-pao
: Meta with x+1 amount of problems/issues with Chien-Pao most likely being one of the most toxic and centralizing issues thanks to it's ability to 2HKO pretty much everything and to use Tera Fire against Magearna.I'm petrified. I will now go cower in fear under a blanket.
Zamazenta will reduce Tera Dark Crunch spam somewhat. We might see more Tera Ice Chien-Pao if it becomes legal
Just curious, how do members of the council decide their votes? Obviously, each vote is thought out and has a “why” associated with it, but I’m more curious on the “how”: is the decision reached mainly through discussion/theorymonning? Do council members have a post-HOME build of OU that they play, and they get a sense of the strength through practice games? Do council members rely a lot on past generations? There are so many times where things are much more/less strong in practice than in theory and normally bans are based on the performance of a Pokémon, not how they would feel in theory. Obviously there is some desire to not have a busted meta and a scrambling council for a few weeks, but if the council can shed some light on how they are making these decisions in the absence of actual play I think it would be appreciated.
The short answer is experience and common sense. The long answer I don’t have time for, but it’s never ever a perfect/flawless process. It is the only part of tiering that hinges on some theory, but without an initial banlist, it would take eons for things to become playable. This is why we have quickbans and retests!
Which results are we getting tonight finch? Do you know?
Well we already revealed Annihilape for the day today, but tomorrow will be Chien-Pao and Saturday will be Spectrier.
Imma guess chien pao goes free
Technically speaking, they didn't unban Magearna. Rather, they didn't quickban Magearna. The difference being that Annihilape needed a supermajority vote to go back to OU, while Magearna needed a supermajority vote to start in Ubers.
We all already know that mf is gonna stay Ubers for good, I bet it's the second unanimous vote too
Nah, I'd bet Flutter Mane is more busted than Spectrier and F. Mane is more likely to be the second unanimous vote (although Last Respects was a unanimous vote barring abstentions, so it's very possible we've already seen all unanimous votes); Spectrier needs Dark Pulse to break Zoroark-H quickly enough and needs Tera Fighting Tera Blast to deal with Kingambit and Tyranitar. No-Tera Tera Blast is unironically nice coverage on Spectrier, but man is Draining Kiss weak.We all already know that mf is gonna stay Ubers for good, I bet it's the second unanimous vote too
You're assuming mage is here to stay (hopefully not).
HEY
WANNA SEE SOMETHING COOL?!
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zoroark-Hisui: 133-157 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Spectrier Draining Kiss (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 183-216 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Skeledirge: 184-217 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 201-237 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Spectrier: 146-172 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
(60 BP because Draining Kiss is not Multi-Hit or Priority)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Spectrier Draining Kiss (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 183-216 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Skeledirge: 184-217 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 201-237 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Spectrier: 146-172 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
(60 BP because Draining Kiss is not Multi-Hit or Priority)
Spectrier epitomizes how buster Ghost as a type to spam has become since the Steel Resist was removed in Gen 6. Given Tera Fairy it's basically diet Flutter Mane, so it's only less busted insofar as it might get 9/10 Uber votes instead of 10/10. Its Shadow Balls are actually stronger against anything besides a direct resist/immunity, with its only shortcoming being that it needs Tera Fairy to achieve the same stupid STAB combo, though compared to Flutter Mane, it's then healing off the couple targets it's clicking with that secondary attack type, which is a relevant benefit to it because despite those defenses, a Base 100 HP is enough to take some neutral hits, which a very frequent scenario for Tera and with such an obvious Weakness flip. I think most offensive teams would consider "Flutter Mane at Home" a reasonable trade-off for "required Tera" if defensive/balance teams think the same of Garganacl.
i’m not sure where the idea that spectrier would at all be tera-dependant is coming from. anything that might have a chance of standing up to its shadow balls folds to wisp+hex and/or sub+cm (easily the best sets before it was banned) as was the case last generation. there’s no world in which something like spectrier blights ou again, imo.
As a Pao in OU hater, I would say with all the new tools + Tauros Paldea in general being a pretty good check. I'm fine with seeing it in OU (I wouldn't be that mad, probably deserves another chance) but I lean it staying in ubers as long as tera is legal.
Thoughts about Spectrier in OU: L O FUCKING L (It's the same mon in gen 8, insane speed tier, insane power, add tera to that equation it will be known as the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse)
i don’t remember the speed benchmarks, but i recall a spread going around that allowed spectrier’s sub to survived a knock off from either burned ferrothorn or mandibuzz. been a while so i’m not sure which mon it was, though, so you’ll have to calc.
So don't attack it. Swap to your counter.
We were speaking about a hypothetical scenario with no tera. In a world with no tera, Gholdengo (+ Talonflame as you mentioned) would be hard stops as long as you don't boost its power by needlessly attacking it.
What new tools are there? Paldea Tauros isn't a good pokemon already in the tier (it dropped on the vr post Pao ban), and HOME to my knowledge isn't bringing anything either so I'm not seeing it.
Mag and Urishifu resists Pao's stabs I guess. But yeah, IDK why people want to let Pao again when most of the defensive types we are getting are weak to ice and dark.
This is also assuming Urshifu remains OU fair, when a lot of people speculated with decent-basis that Swords Dance might push it over the edge for OU.
And between the Annihilape guy and the old "Tera Water Clodsire" user from a few months back, this thread (present speaker included) seem very bad at letting bad topics/bait go.
And between the Annihilape guy and the old "Tera Water Clodsire" user from a few months back, this thread (present speaker included) seem very bad at letting bad topics/bait go.
Being not as bad as flutter mane means literally zero lol like whats even the point in comparing it to a mon that broken and ye as mentioned it goes insane tera or not. With a bonus of it being stupid impossible to attempt to stop with tera in the equation ofc.
Magearna (if it stays) and Watershifu are new checks. And Zamazent (also if it stays).
Tauros dropped after Chien Pao left, it will rise when Chien Pao returns. Yes, its otherwise not a very solid Mon, however it is an almost (weird Tera being exceptions) a surefy stop.
Ferdinand (Tauros-Paldea-Aqua) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fairy / other viable Tera types, choose the best one for the team.
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Body Press
- Raging Bull
Back when Chien Pao centralized the Tier, I used this guy a lot ( in fact, both the Tera Suspect Reqs and the Chien Pao Reqs I got with Tauros on my team). It does not only stop Chien Pao either. It also completely nulifies non Tera Blast (or the also rare Zen Headbutt and Grass Knot) Kingambit, which is currently a Top 2 Mon (in Chien Pao Meta it was worse though). Very often while using this, I could run into both Chien Pao and Kingambit. This meant those games started 6-4 in my favor, very rarely either of those could break it.
Other Mons it stops:
Tusk (some sets).
Baxcalibur (shaky)
Roaring Moon (non Flying variants).
Cinderace.
Already Tera'd Nite.
Ceruledge
Floatzel (extremely hard to stop Mon for most teams without immunities).
There is also Fire variant, which I consider worse, but has WoW.
Despite being Restalk, Water Tauros was not limited to Stall teams, and worked quite well in balance, supporting with Intimidate teammates, that could now switch-in easier.
Theorymoning with Tauros regarding new Mons, it can also check Hisuian Arcanine, Hisuian Samurott, Kleavor and is a shaky switch-in to Sneasler, Zamazenta, Ursaluna, Basculegion and Watershifu.
So, I don,t see this guy bad at all in the context of a Meta with Chien Pao in it, its not like its job is only to stop the cat.
Back to Chien Pao, even with new checks it might be too much, I can admit that. However, its not an obvious Ban for me like Landorus-I, Spectrier or Annihilape, we don,t lose anything by testing it and I can see it providing something positive for OU, that being keeping in check offensive teams while not being as good (but still very viable) vs more bulky ones (its similar to Zamazenta in this regard). If its too much, it can always be banned again.
I know plenty of y'all are getting bored with the current meta and looking forward to new drops with HOME, but I wanted to take a minute to remember and rate the memorable meme sets I've tried over the course of the generation. Would be interested to see what out-there stuff other people have had success with.
CB Dondozo: 0/10
I got this idea after Morkal made a post about CB Alomomola. You'd think being able to switch into a boosted `mon and just batter it with a CB STAB Wave Crash would be great in this meta but, uh, not so much. Not enough power or coverage to make good use of prediction, since the `mons it wants to check or revenge are already primed to switch out against it. Slow enough that it's guaranteed to get hit twice by anything it can't OHKO. Relies on HP for Bulk, making hazards hell. Every now and then you get the satisfaction of absolutely walloping something, but just use Curse sets if you're after that high.
Mirror Herb Flamigo: 3/10
Specifically, CC/Acrobatics/SD/Taunt with Mirror herb. I really though this thing would go off on hazard stack teams. Maybe I was just too eager with it? The idea was to abuse Tusk being everywhere to steal the speed boost from its spin while boosting Acrobatics at the same time. Click SD and go to town, with taunt to shut down defensive counterplay and prevent (p)hazing. Well, folks, it turns out BE Iron Valiant is a pretty popular set and there are a bunch of Unaware `mons in the meta who are deeply underwhelmed by Flamgio's un-boosted power. Who knew? I still want this to work. Maybe I'll try it again on a non-HO team where I can get hazards up later in the match to set up the sweep? */shrug*
Rocky Helmet/Endure Glimmora: 4/10
Using Endure to help re-set multiple layers of t-spikes in the late match had its moments, but that means you're being more cautious with Glimmora early, either revealing the tech early (possibly without needing to) and losing out on a turn of hazards that you would have gotten from Sash or just getting hazards up later. It's not bad, but mortal spin (or corrosion + toxic) + Spiky Shield sets are better if you want to run something other than the standard sash lead.
Electric Terrain Iron Hands: 6/10
I used this exclusively with Terrain Extender to support Iron Moth and E Belt Iron Valiant without needing to run Pincurchin, but it could be worth another look with a different item and only using terrain to dial its own number, since its big problem was Great Tusk and losing turns of E Terrain to switching around. Even if it's not supporting the team, this set can absolutely beat up on fat teams that SD/CB sets can struggle with: Amoonguss can't spore you. Dondozo can't Rest, even if it teras into an electric resist. Clodsire gets wrecked by either Ice Punch or EQ. Tera/E-Terrain/Quark Drive-boosted Wild Charge obliterates pretty much anything else.
Poison Heal Breloom: 6/10
It took a minute to find the right version of this. The key, for me, was giving up on Spore in favor of Toxic. Who knew Breloom even still had toxic?! Toxic + Leech Seed + Protect + Mach Punch with Poison Heal's massive recovery and status immunity is just horribly annoying to bring down.
Endure Garchomp: 7/10
Significantly better than Endure Glimmora because of the Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet combo and the massively better bulk. Being able to force a minimum ~60% damage onto any contact attacker is just a fantastic bail out option. I made a lot of Palafins very sad with this set in the early days of the meta. If your hazard removal is on point, you can even get away with bringing this in multiple times to spread damage and play mind games with Dragon Tail when they try to set up on a predicted Endure.
Covert Cloak Magnezone: ???/10
I tried running this thing with Tera Ghost to dunk on Garg (back before Garg started running EQ), since it naturally has STABs to wallop Water/Fairy/Rock/Flying, but then I went a whole day on ladder without seeing a single one and blamed the `mon for my getting tilted instead of my own poor impulse control. Maybe it's actually good?
Anybody else have favorite sub-optimal sets that kept the meta fun for you? Or horror stories of things that felt clever only to crash and burn?
CB Dondozo: 0/10
I got this idea after Morkal made a post about CB Alomomola. You'd think being able to switch into a boosted `mon and just batter it with a CB STAB Wave Crash would be great in this meta but, uh, not so much. Not enough power or coverage to make good use of prediction, since the `mons it wants to check or revenge are already primed to switch out against it. Slow enough that it's guaranteed to get hit twice by anything it can't OHKO. Relies on HP for Bulk, making hazards hell. Every now and then you get the satisfaction of absolutely walloping something, but just use Curse sets if you're after that high.
Mirror Herb Flamigo: 3/10
Specifically, CC/Acrobatics/SD/Taunt with Mirror herb. I really though this thing would go off on hazard stack teams. Maybe I was just too eager with it? The idea was to abuse Tusk being everywhere to steal the speed boost from its spin while boosting Acrobatics at the same time. Click SD and go to town, with taunt to shut down defensive counterplay and prevent (p)hazing. Well, folks, it turns out BE Iron Valiant is a pretty popular set and there are a bunch of Unaware `mons in the meta who are deeply underwhelmed by Flamgio's un-boosted power. Who knew? I still want this to work. Maybe I'll try it again on a non-HO team where I can get hazards up later in the match to set up the sweep? */shrug*
Rocky Helmet/Endure Glimmora: 4/10
Using Endure to help re-set multiple layers of t-spikes in the late match had its moments, but that means you're being more cautious with Glimmora early, either revealing the tech early (possibly without needing to) and losing out on a turn of hazards that you would have gotten from Sash or just getting hazards up later. It's not bad, but mortal spin (or corrosion + toxic) + Spiky Shield sets are better if you want to run something other than the standard sash lead.
Electric Terrain Iron Hands: 6/10
I used this exclusively with Terrain Extender to support Iron Moth and E Belt Iron Valiant without needing to run Pincurchin, but it could be worth another look with a different item and only using terrain to dial its own number, since its big problem was Great Tusk and losing turns of E Terrain to switching around. Even if it's not supporting the team, this set can absolutely beat up on fat teams that SD/CB sets can struggle with: Amoonguss can't spore you. Dondozo can't Rest, even if it teras into an electric resist. Clodsire gets wrecked by either Ice Punch or EQ. Tera/E-Terrain/Quark Drive-boosted Wild Charge obliterates pretty much anything else.
Poison Heal Breloom: 6/10
It took a minute to find the right version of this. The key, for me, was giving up on Spore in favor of Toxic. Who knew Breloom even still had toxic?! Toxic + Leech Seed + Protect + Mach Punch with Poison Heal's massive recovery and status immunity is just horribly annoying to bring down.
Endure Garchomp: 7/10
Significantly better than Endure Glimmora because of the Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet combo and the massively better bulk. Being able to force a minimum ~60% damage onto any contact attacker is just a fantastic bail out option. I made a lot of Palafins very sad with this set in the early days of the meta. If your hazard removal is on point, you can even get away with bringing this in multiple times to spread damage and play mind games with Dragon Tail when they try to set up on a predicted Endure.
Covert Cloak Magnezone: ???/10
I tried running this thing with Tera Ghost to dunk on Garg (back before Garg started running EQ), since it naturally has STABs to wallop Water/Fairy/Rock/Flying, but then I went a whole day on ladder without seeing a single one and blamed the `mon for my getting tilted instead of my own poor impulse control. Maybe it's actually good?
Anybody else have favorite sub-optimal sets that kept the meta fun for you? Or horror stories of things that felt clever only to crash and burn?
Agree with both points. Pao I think we can give another chance initially and see if meta shifts and new mons can help us deal with it better – it was never as hard a ban as stuff like Ape to begin with. Spect, NO NO NO. It still has all the crazy broken stuff from last gen and Tera lets it just eat the tier alive. Could see us giving it a chance via suspect if we ever did get rid of Tera for what it's worth, it might be more manageable with Garg and the various new Dark-types this gen introduced.
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