LC ADV Little Cup

[rineko]

art by uppa
approved by phoopes

Welcome to the ADV LC Thread!​

ADV LC is a metagame that has been around on and off since 2014, but recently saw a revival and serious development in 2023. ADV LC is a bit different from other LC metagames thanks to Generation 3's unique mechanics:

• No physical special split - As a result, some Pokemon lose STAB they would normally have, but also gain coverage through Hidden Power or other moves.
• Reduced item pool - Items that are staples in future generations such as Eviolite or Choice Scarf do not exist in Generation 3! Common items include Sitrus Berry (which restores 30HP instead of 1/4 HP), pinch berries (like the Salac Berry,) Choice Band, and type boosting items (like Silk Scarf.)
• Early turn ends - Unlike future generations, the turn ends as soon as a Pokemon faints. This creates opportunities to deny your opponent a turn by using Explosion or sacking a Pokemon to hazards.

This metagame had a 4 year period of inactivity, and has been shaken up by recent bans made in 2023. As a result, there is plenty to discover in ADV LC! If you are interested in talking about or playing ADV LC, you are welcome to join the Discord! You can also challenge other players on Pokemon Showdown using the [Gen 3] LC format!

Resources

Tiering Council

Alder ST
evakiyama!
PoseidonWrath
rineko
shreyashhy

Banlist

Pokemon:
Moves: Sonic Boom, Dragon Rage, Baton Pass, Swagger, sleep inducing moves, accuracy lowering moves, Thunder Wave
Items: Deep Sea Tooth

Viability Rankings

S Rank
Wailmer

A+ Rank
Snubbull
Elekid
Anorith
Gastly
Chinchou
Trapinch
Voltorb

A Rank
Staryu
Ponyta
Doduo

A- Rank
Lileep
Cacnea
Exeggcute
Koffing

B+ Rank
Houndour
Bagon
Magnemite

B Rank
Oddish
Cubone
Onix
Machop
Horsea
Larvitar
Mankey
Duskull

B- Rank
Pineco
Spoink
Drozwee
Magby
Baltoy
Togepi

C Rank
Treecko
Meowth
Charmander
Smoochum
Lotad
Tentacool
Poliwag
Grimer
Bellsprout

Potential mon

These mons are functionally unranked but are still perceived to have a small niche in the metagame.

D Rank
Sandshrew
Venonat
Snorunt
Taillow
Growlithe
Carvanha
Kabuto
Torchic
Krabby
Swablu

Sample Teams

Double Electric + Bagon with Spikes by PoseidonWrath


Double Water + Bagon Offence by evakiyama!


Fast Offense with Double Water + Sun by shreyashhy


Knock Off Anorith with Double Water + Sun by Celdanami


Cacnea Hazard Stack + Sun by Zcarlett


Ponyta Lead + Petaya Elekid Balance by rineko


Doduo Lead + DD Bagon Offence by rineko


Rain team with Double Electric + Snubbull Lead by Shing


Triple Electric + Double Water Balance by Shing


Voltorb Lead + Hazard Stack Balance by Shing

Sample sets for any Pokemon on the Viability Ranking can be found on the Smogon Strategy Pokedex.

Outdated Sample Teams (03/08/2026)

Staryu lead by Onraider

Role Compendium

Spikes:
Rapid Spin:
Encore:
Taunt:
Trick:
Memento:
Explosion:
Self-Destruct:

Quick Attack:

Endure

Thief

Knock Off*:
*Thief is usually better than Knock Off, but Anorith, Corphish, and Makuhita do not learn it.

Agility:
Belly Drum:
Bulk Up:
Calm Mind:
Curse:
Dragon Dance:
Swords Dance:

Rain Abusers:
Sun Abusers:
Sand Abusers*:
*Sand Veil only

Speed Tiers

Speed	Sprite	Pokemon	Base	Nature	IVs	EVs	±
32		Carvanha	65	Neutral	31	236	+2
30		Horsea	60	Neutral	31	196	+2
28		Larvitar	41	Positive	31	188	+2
28		Bagon	50	Neutral	31	196	+2
25		Anorith	75	Neutral	31	196	+1
24		Carvanha	65	Neutral	31	236	+1
22		Exeggcute	40	Neutral	31	36	+2
21		Larvitar	41	Positive	31	188	+1
21		Bagon	50	Neutral	31	196	+1
21		Cacnea	35	Positiv	31	236	+1
20		Elekid	95	Positive	31	236	0
20		Voltorb	100	Positive	31	196	0
19		Staryu	85	Positive	31	236	0
19		Ponyta	90	Positive	31	196	0
19		Meowth	90	Positive	31	196	0
19		Poliwag	90	Positive	31	196	0
19		Magby	83	Positive	31	252	0
18		Doduo	75	Positive	31	236	0
18		Gastly	80	Positive	31	196	0
18		Anorith	75	Positive	31	236	0
17		Onix	70	Positive	31	196	0
17		Anorith	75	Positive	31	156	0
17		Mankey	70	Positive	31	196	0
16		Chinchou	67	Neutral	31	220	0
16		Carvanha	65	Neutral	31	236	0
16		Smoochum	65	Neutral	31	236	0
15		Wailmer	60	Neutral	31	196	0
15		Chinchou	67	Neutral	31	140	0
15		Houndour	65	Neutral	31	156	0
15		Horsea	60	Neutral	31	196	0
15		Spoink	60	Neutral	31	196	0
15		Tentacool	70	Neutral	31	116	0
15		Snorunt	50	Positive	31	196	0
14		Cacnea	35	Positive	31	236	0
14		Cubone	35	Positive	31	236	0
14		Larvitar	41	Positive	31	188	0
14		Magnemite	45	Neutral	31	236	0
14		Bagon	50	Neutral	31	196	0
13		Wailmer	60	Neutral	31	36	0
13		Cubone	35	Neutral	31	236	0
13		Baltoy	55	Neutral	31	76	0
13		Lotad	30	Positive	31	196	0
12		Swablu	50	Neutral	31	36	0
11		Machop	35	Neutral	31	76	0
11		Koffing	35	Neutral	31	76	0
11		Exeggcute	40	Neutral	31	36	0
11		Oddish	30	Neutral	31	116	0
11		Drowzee	43	Neutral	31	20	0
11		Venonat	45	Neutral	31	0	0
10		Wailmer	60	Negative	31	0	0
10		Snubbull	30	Neutral	31	36	0
10		Koffing	35	Neutral	31	0	0
10		Cacnea	35	Neutral	31	0	0
9		Grimer	25	Neutral	31	0	0
9		Snubbull	30	Neutral	31	0	0
8		Pineco	15	Neutral	31	0	0
8		Trapinch	10	Neutral	31	36	0
8		Lileep	23	Negative	31	12	0
8		Duskull	25	Negative	31	0	0
8		Togepi	20	Neutral	31	0	0
7		Trapinch	10	Neutral	31	0	0

History

Note: events prior to the 2023 revival may not be documented. View the Old ADV LC Thread if you are interested in history prior to the 2023 revival.

June 1st, 2023	Signups go up for Todd Bonzalez's ADV LC Open, an ADV LC tournament to encourage metagame development sponsored by faint.
June 3rd, 2023	[Gen 3] LC is added as a challenged format to Pokemon Showdown thanks to dhelmise.
June 4th, 2023	The ADV LC thread is created.
June 25th, 2023	Sleep inducing moves are banned from ADV LC.
July 9th, 2023	The first Viability Ranking for ADV LC is released.
July 16th, 2023	Discussion on whether or not Porygon should be banned is opened. Ultimately, Porygon remains in the tier.
July 29th, 2023	Baton Pass, originally only banned in combination with Agility, is banned entirely from ADV LC.
August 1st, 2023	ADV LC is featured as a Ruins of Alph Spotlight format. A spotlight tournament and monthly ladder are hosted.
August 2nd, 2023	Swagger is banned from ADV LC.
August 18th, 2023	The ADV LC vs ADV ZU crew battle takes place.
September 13th, 2023	A formal tiering council is established (grape tylenol, reggg, Kaboom, Quinn, MOHAMEDALL.) The Viability Ranking is updated.
October 1st, 2023	ADV LC is selected by LPL players to be featured in LPL11. LPL (Levi's Premier League) is an off-site biannual LC team tournament hosted on Discord by Eseque, records relating to LPL (including replays and usage statistics) can be viewed in the LPL Discord server.
November 1st, 2023	ADV LC is featured as a Ruins of Alph Spotlight format. A spotlight tournament and monthly ladder are hosted.
November 19th, 2023	The ADV LC vs ADV RU crew battle takes place.
December 10th, 2023	The Viability Ranking is updated and a Doduo suspect test is announced (Policy Review discussion thread).
December 29th, 2023	Signups go up for ADV LC Open: Porygon's Bizarre Adventure go up, a sequel to the original Todd Bonzalez's ADV LC Open tournament.
December 31st, 2023	After an extremely close vote that goes to the deadline, Doduo remains unbanned in ADV LC.
January 1st, 2024	Introduction to ADV LC is published in The Flying Press.
January 11th, 2024	A temporary ADV LC ladder is added to Pokemon Showdown to allow players to practice for the ongoing ADV LC Open: Porygon's Bizarre Adventure tournament. The ladder ran from January to February.
January 13th, 2024	Accuracy lowering moves are banned from ADV LC via council vote.
January 26th, 2024	A DeepSeaTooth suspect test is announced.
February 5th, 2024	DeepSeaTooth is banned from ADV LC.
February 13th, 2024	The Viability Ranking is updated. The ADV LC Analysis Project is started.
March 17th, 2024	Signups for ADVPL IV, which is including ADV LC for the first time, go up.
March 18th, 2024	ADV LC is selected by LPL players to be featured in LPL12.
April 6th, 2024	Signups for ADV LC Cup, featured in LC Classic for the first time, go up.
May 7th, 2024	The Viability Ranking is updated.
June 9th, 2024	A Thunder Wave suspect test is announced (Discussion thread here).
June 25th, 2024	Thunder Wave is banned from ADV LC. The ADV LC Analysis Project is closed. Kaboom and MOHAMEDALL step down from council.
July 31, 2024	Signups go up for ADV LC No Thunder Wave Tournament, a tournament held to explore the metagame after Thunder Wave was banned.
September 15th, 2024	Porygon is banned from ADV LC via council vote.
September 26th, 2024	ADV LC is introduced as a permanent slot in LPL13.
October 14th, 2024	Signups for ADV LC Open, which is newly a part of ADV Grand Slam, go up.
November 15th, 2024	The Viability Ranking is updated and naere and Shing are added as council members.
December 8th, 2024	Signups for the first Little Cup Big Cup (LCBC), which features ADV LC, go up.
February 17th, 2025	A Diglett suspect test is announced following a tiering survey (Discussion thread here).
March 4th, 2025	Diglett remains legal in ADV LC. grape tylenol and reggg step down from council.
May 19th, 2025	Signups for LCPL XIV, the first LCPL to include ADV LC, go up.
May 26th, 2025	Signups for the first ADVLTL, which features ADV LC, go up.
June 1st, 2025	Signups for LCSL IV, which features ADV LC, go up.
June 17th, 2025	The viability ranking and sample teams are updated.
August 30th, 2025	evakiyama! and rineko join the ADV LC council.
September 15th, 2025	Signups for ADV LC Open II, for ADV Grand Slam, go up.
September 16th, 2025	Another Diglett suspect test is announced following another tiering survey.
September 22nd, 2025	Diglett is banned from ADV LC.
December 28th, 2025	Signups for the ADV LC UU Cash Cup go up.
January 10th, 2026	The first round of the Greeditational, an invitiational tournament which features ADV LC, goes up.
February 5th, 2026	Signups for ADV LC Tournament: Lead Me Baby go up.
February 5th, 2026	Signups for the first LCCL, which features ADV LC, go up.
March 9th, 2026	Signups for ADVPL VI go up.
March 9th, 2026	Signups for ADV LC Cup III go up.
April 20th, 2026	Abra is quickbanned from ADV LC following a tiering survey.
May 11th, 2026	Signups for LCPL XV go up.
May 25th, 2026	Signups for LCSL V go up.
July 13th, 2026	Signups for ADVLTL II go up.
August 8th, 2026	The sample teams are updated. Signups for LPL 15 go up.
August 16th, 2026	Shing and naere step down from ADV LC Council. In their place, Alder ST and shreyashhy join ADV LC Council.
October 17th, 2026	Viability rankings have been updated. Quinn steps down; PoseidonWrath joins ADV LC Council.

 

[Peachy07]

I've been having a lot fun in this meta, and I wanted to discuss some of my favorite sets I've been using (some are in samples but I'll be including others).
CLICK SPRITES FOR SETS

Cyndaquil is an incredibly strong nuke due to the speed boost from Salac berry in combination with it's blaze ability. Blaze boosted Flamethrowers can easily clean up teams, with hidden power grass to help against resists such as Larvitar, Chinchou or Wailmer. It does have some very annoying matchups however such as flash fire Ponyta or Houndour, as well as any pokemon with Quick Attack. Diglett is a great partner for it in helping it eliminate the aforementioned fire types.

Snubull has the ability intimidate and solid natural bulk which helps it take on some major physical threats such as Diglett, Meowth, or Bagon. It has also great coverage moves on Shadow Ball and Earthquake that handle normal resists like Gastly and Larvitar. Thief is fantastic for stealing sitrus berries from opposing pokemon, which keeps Snubbull around even longer. Thief is also very useful for stealing sitrus berries from recycle Porygon, one of the absoulute best pokemon in the meta. Snubbull is let down by it's speed but makes up for with raw strength, good coverage, and useful ability.

Abra has many good tools but I've been really enjoying boltbeam Abra. Abra is already a very fast Pokemon, but salac berry allows it to outspeed other 19 speed pokemon and 20 speed pokemon. Abra's base 105 special attack in combination with stab Psychic, and coverage in Ice Punch and Thunder Punch allows it to blow past many meta relevant pokemon. This Abra set in particular works very well on spikestack teams, which chip stuff like Chinchou into range of Psychic.There are still pokemon that this set despises, particularly Houndour and any pokemon with Priority.

The silk scarf set is a nice alternative to the choice band set. While it has less power, you still get boosted Quick Attack without being forced to lock into it. STAB Quick attack itself is very useful for picking off all Salac berry users or even just fast and frail Pokemon such as Abra, Meowth, and Diglett. Hidden power Fighting doesn't come in use a whole lot but it does hit Lileep, Larvitar, and Magnemite which is nice. Overall this Doduo is a very strong breaker and a safety net against salac berry pokemon.

This has been one of my favorite pokemon to use, it's so bulky. Lileep can take basically any special attack from full, heal up with a sitrus berry, and retaliate with Mirror Coat. Giga Drain, while it has low PP, is still very useful for handling water types in addition to one shotting Larvitar and Diglett. Lileep also has access to recovery furthering its longevity. It's hard walled by Cacnea and has a hard time vs Doduo, but if positioned right this thing is unkillable.



UNTESTED/NOT SUGGESTED FOR BEGINNERS SETS

IF you can get Sandshrew set up it wrecks everything.Very little can actually take its attacks, but its special defense is so low it can be hard to find a set up opportunity. It's a neat surprise pick that can put in work, but not something I'd recommend.

It's a water type Cyndaquil, has stiff competition for the water slot but it's certainly pretty solid.

A cute rain answer that can also take on Wailmer. Not amazing but it does it's job well if you need water type answers.

This honestly isn't a bad mon, it's just outclassed by the other fire types. I have had a lot of fun with it when pairing it up with Snubbull for double intimidate though.

I haven't tested this set out but I think calm mind Slowpoke could be a legitimate pick. It might be too slow to pull it off, but it's definitely something I'll be further looking into.

 

[grape tylenol]

Sleep moves are now banned from ADV LC! + tiering survey results

Recently I ran a survey to determine what the next steps of the ADV LC metagame should be. This survey was given out to players in the Todd Bonzalez ADV LC Open - thank you very much to the people who took the time to fill out the survey! Let's take a closer look at the results (participants were asked how they felt about a specific element of the metagame, with 1 being balanced, 3 being potentially banworthy, and 5 being banworthy:)

As expected Porygon is strong (mostly due to the Sitrus Berry + Recycle combo) but not considered to be immediately banworthy. I will be keeping a close eye on it as the metagame develops.

When creating the survey, I predicted that Wailmer would be more powerful than it currently is - but Chinchou is actually more popular as a Water type! This graph definitely reflects that.

Doduo, Sitrus Berry, and Baton Pass all got a mixed response. These are elements that are a bit trickier to evaluate: Sitrus Berry is part of a powerful Recycle + Sitrus Berry combo on Porygon, but it is also one of the few defensive (or even item) options available in the tier. Baton Pass + Agility is banned, but still sees some use to pass pinch berries or to pass a Substitute to a teammate, creating a great setup opportunity. I personally think once sleep is banned, Baton Pass will become more balanced. Speaking of that...

Sleep moves are the only thing the community clearly agrees on - and agrees that they are banworthy! I wrote a post detailing why here, but it boils down to the uncompetitive nature of moves like Hypnosis, lack of counterplay, and a dissatisfaction with games being decided by hitting Hypnosis or other sleep moves. As a result all sleep inducing moves have been banned from ADV LC.

 

[az]

please add my team to the op.

i debuted this team in the fabled todd bonzalez's adv lc open $100 usd tournament and it is a very good team because it has a wooper on it and i called my wooper "oopa" which i feel is cute. ok let's get right into it this is the team

oopa (Wooper) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Atk / 192 SpD
Brave Nature
- Ice Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Earthquake
- Surf

Pokekids2 (Teddiursa) @ Choice Band
Ability: Pickup
Level: 5
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
- Return

Tiny (Aron) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 228 HP / 252 Atk / 28 SpA
Serious Nature
- Rock Slide
- Substitute
- Iron Defense
- Iron Tail

snorgler (Gulpin) @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Toxic
- Yawn

Charmandler (Charmander) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Blaze
Level: 5
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SpA / 136 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Double-Edge
- Dragon Dance
- Flamethrower
- Rock Slide

Carpk (Magikarp) @ Leftovers
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 5
EVs: 216 HP / 16 Atk / 88 SpD / 188 Spe
Serious Nature
- Splash
- Flail
- Tackle

some notes: Carpk is pronounced like "carpark"
gulpin should be shiny.

 

[az]

^ addendum:

any of these pokemon could be repurposed for tiers outside of lc adv in gen 3 or later, just level them up

 

[LRXC]

ADV Little Cup content

 

[grape tylenol]

Hello everyone!

I'm excited to announce the first viability ranking for ADV LC! You can view it in the original post of this thread. Thank you to faint, Peachy07, Kaboom, and reggg for their help in creating it.

Because this is the first viability ranking and we only had 4 rounds of tournament games to work off of, some Pokemon might be a little higher or lower than expected. I plan to put out an updated viability ranking in 2 or 3 weeks that will hopefully be more accurate. If you think a Pokemon is missing, it's likely because it didn't see much tournament use and thus was difficult to rank. I hope that this viability ranking will be helpful to new players regardless!

If you are interested in making your own viability ranking, I've created a template here: https://tiermaker.com/create/adv-lc-tier-list-15818310

July 9th, 2023 Viability Ranking

S
Porygon

A+
Abra
Chinchou
Diglett
Doduo
Elekid

A
Gastly
Meowth
Ponyta
Trapinch
Voltorb
Wailmer

A-
Anorith
Houndour
Snubbull

B+
Koffing
Staryu

B
Duskull
Horsea
Larvitar
Lileep
Machop
Skitty

B-
Baltoy
Cacnea
Cubone
Cyndaquil
Magby
Mankey
Pineco

C
Bellsprout
Exeggcute
Magnemite
Oddish
Onix
Poliwag

July 10th sample sets update:

Thanks to many contributors (Peachy07, Kaboom, rarre, reggg, BlueWollyWog, TheLoyalBandito, NotJackewu and myself) the set compendium in the original post of this thread has been updated. There is now a competitive set (or multiple) listed for every Pokemon on the viability ranking. I hope that this resource will be useful to players building new teams!

If you are interested in submitting sample sets for the set compendium or providing feedback on the sets in the set compendium, please feel free to do so here or in the ADV LC Discord.

 

[Peachy07]

So I've been thinking about this post for awhile now and I really think Porygon needs to be banned. It's always been the single most controversial mon in the meta since day 1. In my opinion it's set variety is so vast that it can be nearly impossible to guess what set it's running until it's too late. There are two main sets, the bulky thunder wave variant and the agility variant. But within those main sets there are many moves it can run that each change it's counterplay.

Here are some examples I've encountered that show what I mean:
If you guess that the opposing Porygon is defensive and you click toxic, you might've just given it a free agility.
If you guess that the Porygon was offensive and try to slow it down with Thunder wave, you just made it immune to statuses such as poison or freeze that would otherwise ruin it.
If you thought you could use a Pokemon with explosion, Porygon just clicked substitute and you just lost your mon.
If you thought that Chinchou would be a safe answer due to it's resistance to boltbeam coverage, Porygon just whipped out HP Grass.


Another point I'd like to talk about is god damn Porygon wars. The Porygon wars are the single worst part of the tier imo, with games such as this going from turn 13 till the war ended at turn 43. In terms of LC this is a long time, and when it's the single best mon in the tier it's very common for games to drag out. While that itself is not a reason for it being broken, it still takes away from the tier. You really don't want to switch out in fear of losing your other Pokemon to boltbeam coverage so you're (usually but not always) inclined to stay, in and whoever wins the war is often favored. My biggest issue with these wars is that often it's two Porygons just fishing to freeze with ice beam as seen in these two games. I think it's clear why that is unhealthy for the metagame.

Another important topic is how easy it is to eliminate Porygon's checks when partnered with Diglett. Pokemon such as and especially all have tools to try to pick off Porygon, but Diglett is able to come in and eliminate them at any point before Porygon comes in.

For example let's say you use Chinchou to take on Wailmer. Then the opponent can easily revenge kill with Diglett and you just lost your best Porygon answer. So then this can cause situations where you have to preserve Chinchou for Porygon, but you really need to use Chinchou to beat something else. Basically a pick your poison scenario. That is not to say Diglett is the issue, however it enables Porygon extremely well.

So what does this all mean?
All of the mentioned topics above in conjunction with it's incredible bulk and insane special attack turns Porygon into the single best pokemon in the metagame. It also has an incredible ability in trace that can allow it to copy abilities such as Arena trap to revenge kill Trapinch or Diglett. Almost nothing can OHKO it, while it's able to continuously go back up to full health with with recycle + Sitrus berry. It also has one of the single highest special attack stats in the meta, with access to agility to mitigate it'd middling speed. You get to chose between an unkillable mon or one of the most dangerous sweepers in the meta all while forcing your opponent to guess what set you are, what coverage you have, and what even checks your specific set. Not to mention those Skitty calm mind baton pass teams that boost it's special attack even further and allow it to set up even easier.

This is not to say Porygon does not have flaws and it does have ways to beat it such as thief or Machop. However a well played Porygon is almost unstoppable, very unpredictable, and a very problematic element in the tier. I'm hoping to spark up discussion from both those who agree and disagree with me to see what the community overall thinks, I imagine opinions overall are very split.

 

[grape tylenol]

Porygon

As we saw in the earlier tiering survey, Porygon was already a controversial element of ADV LC:

(participants were asked how they felt about a specific element of the metagame, with 1 being balanced, 3 being potentially banworthy, and 5 being banworthy:)

And as you may have already guessed by Peachy07's post above this one, the sleep ban has only made Porygon stronger. Peachy's post sums up the pro-ban argument pretty well but there are a few more points I'd like to bring up.

• Thief shuts down Porygon's recovery and makes it much more manageable. Thief is actually a quite powerful move in ADV LC that's both useful against targets besides Porygon and is widely distributed. Many top tier Pokemon like Abra and Snubbull already run Thief, and Thief is learned by many (relatively) unexplored options like Duskull, Grimer, and Koffing.
  
  
• The Agility Porygon set is honestly what prompted me to start thinking about Porygon again in the first place. While it hasn't been used much yet, when combined with boosts from Skitty it can win the game as seen here.
  
  
• Trace is so powerful on Porygon that Ponyta gives up Flash Fire and instead runs Run Away (a completely useless ability) just so that it isn't walled by Porygon. While Fire isn't a very common attacking type in ADV LC, I think this goes to show the strong effect Porygon has on the tier is.

While I am personally leaning towards banning Porygon, this is a difficult decision to make and I'd like to hear the playerbase's thoughts on it. If you're interested in sharing your opinion, please share if you would prefer to have Porygon remain in the tier or be banned here. In addition, you are encouraged to post your thoughts here or join us in the ADV LC Discord to discuss Porygon!

I will be making a decision on whether or not Porygon should remain in the tier on the 23rd, so please make your opinion known before then.

 

[zf]

I think the Funniest thing About porygon is it is Its own best counter…

It also learn the THIEF

 

[zf]

Tiers r in no particular order…

S+
Porygon - u literalmente cannot build a serious team without this mon. It does EVERYTHING… trace gives ample utility vs weather sweepers/trappers, coverage is excellent, gets thief, gets recycle, can feasible run any spread - fast, slow, pdef, Sdef, physical attacker… always use this Mon

S
Wailmer - bulk is absurd, only stab electric or grass moves can ohko (or cb doduo). Waterspout and hydro pump are excellent, powerful stabs… between the bulk and selfdestruct, this mon will always trade 1 for 1 at a minimum and can spot check some of the scariest sweepers like horsea, anorith, and larvitar. Amazing

Doduo - priority is necessary in a tier without scarfers and chip weather. Normal stab is also amZing, given the fact there are maybe 3 viable resists. silk scarf is a great glue, cb has no consistent swap ins, hell even agility or mixed hp grass sets can easily nab a sweep at times

Gastly - normal resists r needed and this is by far the best. Movepool and typing means it can do basically whatever it wants… amazing tool for making progress as it can lure anything with boom and force in specific targets tailored to its team by altering coverage. endure salac is one of the scariest users because it can’t be revenged by priortity

A
Larvitar - the Gatekeeper. Really only held back by trappers and the fact pory and wailmer (the two best/most splashable mons) are its best checks. Edgequake is excellent stabs, dd is a great sweeper. Liechi, sitrus, subdd vs hpbug… a great mon

Horsea - swift swim is another gatekeeper. Again, wailmer / pory checks it best… but it kills every other non- water resist straight up.

Ponyta - good strong stab, solar beam, good speed tier and amazing BST overall. great lead that prevents all spikers from getting em up.

Elekid / voltorb - 20 speed electrics… elekid has wayyy better coverage, plus thief/pursuit/auick attack for utility, while the Orb gets boom… both solid AF

DIGLETT - yeah it’s lc, diglett rules. Trapper, 20 speed, etc etc

Meowth - normal stab is great, pseudo priortity, sball for the best resists. Good speed tier

Koffing - great physical bulk, ground immune, thief + boom… yeah it’s legit.

Chinchou - elec immune, great water resist, gets agility… unfortunately hatd checked by pory and trappable by dig on the backswing

Anorith - good enough speed, good overall stats, a great normal resist. Swords dance is a pretty good breaker and overall tough mon to trade with 1v1

B
Abra - good coverage, strong, good speed, thief, screens… on the cusp of being an a rank mon. Unfortunately garbo bulk, easily checked by pory and trapped by both dig and pinch…

Staryu - good coverage, good speed tier, decent power… unfortunately walled to hell and back by porygon and doesn’t get thief

Poliwag - 19 spe plus drum can always be a threT… idk where it stands after the sleep ban but u definitely need to respect it

Trapinch - much like dig except it has priortity in exchange for speed. Changes its MU spread, generally worse overall tho than dig

Pineco - spikes plus boom… it’s ok i guess

Cubone - para is great, it’s strength is absurd with thick club. Unfortunately slow…

Houndour - pursuit utility mon that easily checks pony, abra, gastly… otherwise a worse fire than pony

Duskull - good bulk, thief, 2 immunities… no boom tho. Imo competes with koffing for a slot but is worse overall

Cacnea - grass stab is good, deceptively good resist with electrics, grounds, and waters everywhere… spikes r good to punish swaps like pory

Oddish - best sub sweeper by far… obviously worse after the sleep ban (hence the drop to low B) but grass stab is arguably better vs a lot of the utility checks in the meta like wailmer or chou…

C
Magby - crosschop and thief for pory… no solarbeam tho… 19 speed fire that competes with pony but is usually worse unless u can leverage its coverage…

Taillow - 19 speed with great stabs and priority… like doduo jr. Idk if it’s good but probably is

Lileep - normal resist with coverage… great swap to pory and gastly, alright 1 time resist vs most of the meta with sitrus + recover + grass stab. unfortunately doesn’t exert a lot of pressure back but there aren’t really steels to punish it like later metas… underexplored pick atm. May deserve a higher ranking upon exploration

Magnemite - wow this guy has some great resists and qualities. Amazing swap to 3/4 of the S mons… Typing is great and powr is real. Unfortunately slow and lacks agility like GSC, and recycle / boom from later gens… and easily trapped by dig, which keeps it from being higher. Unexplored

Bagon / dratini - dd mons with unique resistances but lack power overall

Eggxecute - grass stab is great, psy covers pory and fires better than oddish. Explosion and thief too… sadly 60 spa is kinda weK, and psychic secondary typing is more a liability than positive. Good mon tho, prob shld be higher actually

Carvahna - goddamn this guy hits hard with hydro / crunch / ice / thief as options… unfortunately weak af, easily trapped, and lets it all faster mons.

Shellder - uh ok this mon. Good phys bulk makes it a great chdck to larv, doduo, meowth… but no spikes :(. Boom is great utility. Pure water is a lot better than pineco’s bug for resisting hydros and random fireblast but its let down by its tiny hp and SpD base stats. Again foghting with koffing for a team slot

D
Ledyba - can pass subs/agility, gets encore

Lotad - OPTIMAL water resist PLUS grass stab and thief. Held back by WOAT base stats

Baltoy - wow edgequake resist plus boom… shit speed, bad BST holding it back… perhaps a cb trick sets might work? Idk

Venonat - lol sucks now that sleep is banned but used to be able to pass subs

Skitty - should be down here too… can pass CM boosts but absolutely ass stats

 

[Fantos13]

Doduo, come back!
Go! Abra!
Abra was hurt by the spikes!

The opposing Porygon used Thunder Wave!
Abra is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
[Abra's Synchronize]
The opposing Porygon is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
(Abra ate its Lum Berry!)
Abra was cured of paralysis!

Am I the only one who uses Abra as my initial Pory switchin? you can always fish for the twave

 

[grape tylenol]

Doduo, come back!
Go! Abra!
Abra was hurt by the spikes!

The opposing Porygon used Thunder Wave!
Abra is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
[Abra's Synchronize]
The opposing Porygon is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
(Abra ate its Lum Berry!)
Abra was cured of paralysis!

Am I the only one who uses Abra as my initial Pory switchin? you can always fish for the twave

It's a good option (especially since you can run Thief to steal the Porygon's Sitrus Berry!) but you have to watch out for mixed or physical Porygon, which have a small (Return) to guaranteed chance to OHKO (Facade after being paralyzed, Double Edge) with their normal stab.

 

[grape tylenol]

As I said last week...

I will be making a decision on whether or not Porygon should remain in the tier on the 23rd, so please make your opinion known before then.

I'm posting this a bit early as round 7 of Todd Bonzalez's ADV LC Open is going up early today. Of course, you are still welcome (and encouraged!) to discuss Porygon in this thread. Following careful observation, hearing the community's thoughts, and viewing the results of the poll, I have decided not to ban Porygon at this time. I will continue to keep an eye on Porygon (and especially Baton Pass) and take action if necessary.

Poll results:

I've also updated the original post of this thread with a role compendium! Happy teambuilding!

 

[GoldenCyber]

This meta has been a fun experience for me. I made some teams if anyone wants to use them. I've had some success in the ADV open with these.

https://pokepast.es/824281fbe7e3151d
https://pokepast.es/347d2fdad348dbc7
https://pokepast.es/c03bd8eebd6d29c8
https://pokepast.es/2734126fea5e7741
https://pokepast.es/683a589503c8ccc1

 

[grape tylenol]

Baton Pass

Effective immediately, the move Baton Pass will be banned from ADV LC. Baton Pass was already banned in combination with Agility from before the tier's 2023 revival. However, this was not enough - over the course of the recent ADV LC tournament Skitty has abused Baton Pass to pass Calm Mind boosts (and potentially a Salac Berry boost) to powerful sweepers like Porygon and Elekid. By banning Baton Pass entirely, we both simplify a complex ban and make the tier more competitive. This ban will be in effect for Round 8 of Todd Bonzalez's ADV LC Open.

August 2nd Viability Rankings Update:
As a result of the above ban, the viability rankings have been updated slightly.

Skitty: B → Unranked
Skitty's only niche in the tier was to boost with Calm Mind and Baton Pass to a powerful sweeper like Porygon or Elekid. Because Baton Pass is now banned, Skitty has been moved off of the viability rankings.

Cubone: B- → C
Cubone is no longer able to recieve a Salac boost from a Baton Pass, making it slightly weaker in the meta. Cubone will likely still be able to function on teams that focus on paralyzing all opposing Pokemon (paraspam) teams, however.

Bagon: Unranked → B
The initial viability rankings were based off of usage statistics from a round of Todd Bonzalez's ADV LC Open, and Bagon was not used in that round. Since then, Bagon has been used in combination with Larvitar to form a powerful duo of Dragon Dance sweepers.

In addition to the viability ranking update, a new sample team featuring Bagon has been added to the original post (thanks reggg!)

 

[NotJackewu]

A new strategy has hit ADV LC with the grand opening of the ADV LC ladder, Paralysis Swagger spam.

The strategy is simple (clickable):

​

The lead

Use one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier that has decent bulk to go along side it. Simply Thunder Wave your opponent and click Substitute until they get para'd, you can then swagger them to have a 25% of para or 50% for the confused pokemon to hit itself. Its moveset has one big flaw, it allows pokemon such as Trapinch to come in and kill you with Earthquake. Hidden Power Grass wont kill either Trapinch or Diglett, but we can use that to our advantage. Let yourself get trapped and let the next pokemon take care of it.

The Diglett/Trapinch answer

With the ability Trace it can counter-trap both Diglett and Trapinch, enabling the rest of the team to spam Paralysis freely as (to my awareness) no-one is running two ground types on the same team. Porygon will kill the trapper, eat its berry and Thunder Wave the next pokemon that comes in to continue the Paralysis Swagger cycle. Its worth to note that if Diglett crits the Porygon, you will lose it and in turn, probably lose the game.

The rest

Continue annoying your opponent further with spamming Paralysis Swagger over and over again until one person wins more coinflips than the other. One of these slots can easily be replaced with a set up sweeper like Bagon or Larvitar to capitalize on the opposing Pokemon being paralyzed.

The item that makes this possible

Leftovers allow your Pokemon to continue setting up Substitutes as you pray your opponent hits itself in confusion or gets fully paralyzed. The Pokemon are EV'd+IV'd to have an unequal number in their HP stat so they can afford to set up five Substitutes instead of four, although the random para + confuse chance can make that 6-7 substitutes per Pokemon.


How do I beat this strategy

• Get lucky. You still have 25% to not get para'd and a 50% to not hit yourself in confusion.
• Make your lead a fast Pokemon like Diglett and outspeed the opponent, this is obviously not something you WANT to rely on as fast Pokemon dont have to be good leads. It also leaves you weak to many common leads as speed ≠ power.
• Do not allow your opponent to paralyze you by switching to a Ground type. The team is built around Ground types like Diglett and Trapinch by utilizing Porygon's trace ability, in turn that's also its weakness. Porygon is a slow Pokemon allowing you to sub on it and set up or simply kill it. This Substitute needs to be broken in order for the Paralysis Swagger user to use their gimmick on you.
• Explosion Pokemon. Explosion Pokemon allow you to mess with the opponent's Paralysis Swagger cycle by breaking their Substitute without the opposing Pokemon being Paralyzed. Of course, this requires YOU to have a Pokemon that is fast enough to outspeed the Pokemon on the field (Good luck when that Pokemon is Abra, Staryu or Voltorb though).

I myself have yet to lose to this strategy but as you might imagine, it came down to purely luck. The strategy is definitely not optimal, but neither is my understanding of it. Im sure that if I tested with it a bunch I could find optimizations that make the strategy too much to handle (Adding Dragon Dance sweepers like Bagon comes to mind), but I dont want to force people to suffer playing against this strategy any more than need be. I frankly am not looking forward to what people come up with on their own to make this strategy even better.

In my opinion we should EXCLUSIVELY ban Swagger as Thunder Wave is not an issue when it's not paired with Swagger and Swagger is not used outside of this strategy. From my understanding it's been done in most generations that come after Gen 3, we might as well do the same here.

 

[grape tylenol]

Swagger

As you may already be aware, ADV LC was selected as the Community Choice Ruins of Alph Spotlight ladder this month! This has been great for the tier as it has brought in many new players and strategies. Unfortunately, one of these strategies has quickly become notorious in the tier - the "paraswag" team (a variation of which you can read about in NotJackewu's post above this one.) This strategy combines both Swagger and Thunder Wave to attempt to lock the opponent out of the game. Whether you can fight back or not is entirely dependent on luck - your Pokemon must overcome both a 50% chance to hit itself in confusion as well as a 25% chance to be fully paralyzed. If you manage to break through, good luck because you'll have to do it again 4 or 5 more times depending on what your opponent is running.

I believe this strategy is uncompetitive and reduces the game to luck, completely eliminating player skill. Unsurprisingly, Swagger is already banned in every LC meta before confusion was nerfed, so I feel there is enough precedent to justify this ban. While this strategy has not been seen outside of ladder yet, I feel it is best to address Swagger immediately both before it is developed further and taken advantage of in tournament play, and so that players can have a competitive experience on the ADV LC ladder.

As a result, effective immediately, the move Swagger will be banned from ADV LC. This ban will be in effect for Round 9 of Todd Bonzalez's ADV LC Open. Tagging Kris for implementation (thank you!)

 

[reggg]

Just got knocked out after a run I'm pretty happy with considering I've very little idea what I'm doing. Really enjoyed playing this meta and the varieties that came with it over the course of the tournament thus far. Thought I'd share some teams I've created that I thought were really fun. Warning that most of them are probably not legal with the current meta.


https://pokepast.es/e6fe2164619f03d6

First up is my favorite team of them all, and one that I made really early on in the revival of ADV LC. The concept is to spam twave on as many things as possible, get up some spikes, and let Cubone sweep. The team also featured a salac sleep powder venonat that could pass a speed boost to Cubone. It's just a really fun team, and it got quite a few wins in the early rounds of the tournament. Here is my favorite one from MOHAMEDALL https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3lc-1889488327-r1zmieum25zumaeqzpavq7ogfwr7vpzpw



https://pokepast.es/ad5070c5680cfb43
https://pokepast.es/b28be1b0895e3f7c

Next is pretty normal looking team that features a lead Ponyta that has hypnosis. I don't know when it started exactly, but Ponyta and Meowth began a reign of terror as speedy mons that quite threaten a 60% sleep chance. This kind of swung games very heavily, as you can see in this https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3lc-698518.
This team also saw some decent wins in the beginning of the tournament.



https://pokepast.es/95ad181946288685

Mankey my beloved, a fun idea of a team with Sub + Focus Punch as well as Reversal. The idea of the team was to lead abra and bait in a porygon or houndour, then bring in Mankey to sub on them. Sub + FP allows it to be instantly threatening behind a sub without relying on being low hp for reversal. It won my only game in a fun series vs Faint https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3lc-1899600369-6urbo0ae5mbx0jcu7tu6my0cmsuybmzpw.


https://pokepast.es/1072bdefc956a0b8

Team that's now in the samples, I based it on a similar team that was in the old ADV LC thread. Double dragon dance is just a fun style to play, lead off Pineco to get spikes, get in position with your dd'ers and click buttons. Pineco is a fun set with giga drain and light screen, giving it a better mu vs things like elekid, chinchou, or abra. Solid team that got some great wins in the tournament, shout out to Éric and Quinn
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3lc-1908234969-0og8eq8roanorqviwrpkmeb3ol6rezbpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3lc-1913557630
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3lc-1913562702



https://pokepast.es/e00a0b44963a1263

Finally, the most evil team of them all. Baton Pass Skitty to agility substitute Porygon. I thought that a calm mind pass the porygon could be strong, and then I find out Heysup has already done it. I took the 6 mons he had and tried to recreate. The sets could be different, I do not know if he ran substitute on his Porygon, but that is where I got the team from. I think this team and others like it is what got Porygon initially suspected, and then Baton Pass later banned. This skitty ran no attacks and was complete dead weight if positioned wrong, but if it was put it the right spot, it was incredibly easy to para fish with substitute and calm mind up on any of the special attackers, and then Baton pass to Porygon. Substitute let you get a free agility off on an opposing Porygon trying to Twave. An evil team, probably good that it's banned now.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3lc-1911793531
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3lc-704146


I had a blast playing and building in this revived meta, looking forward to more of it this month with RoA. Shout out to LeJames Chonk for taking anything that I would give him, to grape tylenol for being a wonderful host and all the hard work she's done so far, and to anyone else that ended up trying my teams. Thank for reading.

 

[Kaboom]

Just like Reg I've been eliminated after a run I can't complain about. LCPL kept me a bit distracted from building in the later rounds, but I'll share some of the squads that got me to top 24.

Two of my go to squads for the tour:
https://pokepast.es/edec68d7a5da19da (outdated)
Hit fast, hit hard is the motto of this tier imo. Meowth is a really strong lead. Provides early chip against the bulky leads that abuse Sitrus Berry, and tanking nearly everything from full to KO back. Elekid is the backup second priority user to hold down Salac Berry sweepers, as well as beating on the other Electrics using Petaya. Sunny Day Ponyta dumpsters the waters and can beat Porygon if you win some 50/50s, but crippling it regardless. Anorith is a solid sweeper that has a great MU against Doduo, the scariest mon in the tier to build for IMO. I was a really early adopter of Liechi Berry Diglett over Choice Band, and its shown to be the standard.
https://pokepast.es/0a51536d4fd40b2d (outdated)
My favorite team, and still playable if you update the Wailmer and Porygon sets (Will put those at the bottom of the post). Wailmers an incredible lead, pumping out massive damage and having a solid matchup against most other leads. Just a simple Chou and old standard Pory for the electrics and checking majority of the tier between the two of them. Elekid gets to shine late game with Pineco Spike support, who I don't run as a lead because I think its a waste.

Random Tourney Squads:
https://pokepast.es/6be15ffd80d3c67d (outdated)
Its wild this was legal for so long, skittys normal typing and reasonable bulk allows it late-game to find opportunities to Calm Mind and turn Porygon into the perfect sweeper. Memento Duskull meant the special Porygons weren't able to break Skitty's Substitute and you auto won the game if they stayed in.
https://pokepast.es/f77368dd8c6757c0
Won in its only showing (the round I got knocked out). Double trappers are a rarity in the tier, but Endure Salac Diglett is able to anti-lead the common leads such as Meowth (Double Edge recoil puts it into EQ range), Elekid, Voltorb, and Trapinch is able to mid-game shut down these same Pokemon if they were held in the back. Porygon and Abra are capable of holding the Water types down, though the team struggles against Horsea. Choice Band Doduo once the trappers guarantee troubling mons like Abra and Elekid are gone just demolishes the tier. Koffing is my Doduo answer of choice, but its not the most durable. You often end up sacking mons to Doduo if the game goes long. Definitely ladder viable.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3lc-1899530258
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3lc-1899537694
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3lc-1908854555
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3lc-1908857623

The last team I would like to share was built today to peak the ladder, and it way over preformed.
https://pokepast.es/a4cb967adb8ccc00
These have the updated Wailmer and Porygon sets I would have on the 2nd team posted. The EVs and EQ allows Wailmer to 1v1 every Electric bar Modest Chou, and demolish every common lead except Pineco/Cacnea. Return Pory fixes the mirror and Abra matchups, and only really sacrifices the OHKO on Horsea. Anorith checks Doduo and has cleaned up so many late-games with SD. Petaya Elekid trades off QA utility to just OHKO basically everything that isn't a Porygon.

Rank Screenshots

Been a massive fan of this current iteration of ADV LC, and hope we continue to see growth in both the playerbase and the metagame.

 

[grape tylenol]

Ladder Competition

Ruins of Alph is hosting a temporary ladder for ADV LC this month! To encourage activity, I've been checking the ladder at 10PM GMT-4 every Sunday and awarding the following prizes in the ADV LC Discord:

1st Place	Drawing from yours truly + custom role color in the ADV LC Discord
2nd Place	Custom role color in the ADV LC Discord
3rd Place	Custom role color in the ADV LC Discord

If you would like a chance at one of the prizes, hit the ADV LC ladder on Pokemon Showdown! and make it to at least 3rd place by 10PM GMT-4 this Sunday. If you don't make it, I'll be checking the ladder again at 10PM GMT-4 the Sunday after that! Please note that you may only win the drawing and/or custom role color once.

As for why I'm just posting this now... When I checked the ladder last week, the 1st and 3rd place prize went unclaimed. If you are the owner of the "kidnelson" (1st place) or "vtmagno" (3rd place) accounts and would like to claim your prize, please join the ADV LC Discord and tag me!

August 15th Sample Teams Update:
The sample teams have been updated to reflect recent meta developments. Thanks Kaboom, BlueWollyWog, and NotJackewu for your contributions!

 

[SkidandPump102]

This is the team that got me to top 50
https://pokepast.es/096592120c5039d4

 

[SkidandPump102]

I got a diglett sweep https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3lc-1927266135

 

[SkidandPump102]

I've gotten to top 20 with the same team

 

[grape tylenol]

I've gotten to top 20 with the same team

Hey SkidandPump102! I'm glad to hear you're enjoying the ADV LC ladder. I've noticed you've been posting in this thread a lot, which is great! But it would be appreciated if you either made longer, more in depth posts or combined your shorter posts into a single post.

You are also welcome to join the ADV LC Discord for more casual discussion about the tier!