Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

[ianlazerbeem]

Gems were closer to a generational gimmick honestly

You could also say it was Wonder Launcher - common thread is that ALL 3 of these so called "generational mechanics" were subject to ban or restriction. So even if "generational gimmicks" were a material and not a completely subjective and made up concept, there is zero reason that they would be "off limits" or given special treatment during the tiering process

 

[BolTingBlazie]

sorry finch for turning this thread into natdex tera discussion apparently. please dont kill me im so nice



there's plenty of posts written more eloquently by smarter people than me on why this is a bad idea. The first option is a big middle finger to non-english speaking communities who cannot speak english or cannot express themselves as well as a native speaker and also just people who dare to not talk in the forums for various reasons but still have knowledge on the metagame. Genuinely all this will do is making smogon less welcoming and insular and end up with half baked posts from people who have to show activity to vote. The latter will just have people create accounts in smogon, not do anything with them and let them age so they can use it for suspect tests.

I understand that non english speakers should be able to vote, but honestly I feel there should be a far larger barrier to entry for suspects on mechanics like this that could fundamentally change the game, something that natdex failed to do before their second tera suspect. Thus why I have some lingering concerns here about this suspect

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I understand that non english speakers should be able to vote, but honestly I feel there should be a far larger barrier to entry for suspects on mechanics like this that could fundamentally change the game, something that natdex failed to do before their second tera suspect.

I swear this is how some of y'all sound talking about "Chinese foreign influence on the suspects." All bans fundamentally change the game.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

View attachment 535470I swear this is how some of y'all sound talking about "Chinese outside influence on the suspects." All bans fundamentally change the game.

I don't desire to sound like this, I'm just pointing out my concerns with the way this suspect could be handled thus far, as I at least believe that natdex mishandled the suspect one way or another with reqs. I do believe that all people should be able to vote, but for suspects on stuff like terastal that if restricted or gone could massively change the game more than a single pokemon, I believe the required elo reqs should always be higher for tests like this. Something natdex failed to do on their tests, I think all of you get my point now on why I am at least a little concerned.

 

[kosecant]

3 Pokémon having 3 abilities being considered the "generational mechanic" of gen 5 is proof we should stop using this ridiculous term to influence discussion on tiering action

The difference is there is now clearly going to be a very large mechanic that has a ton of impact across the game every generation, and game freak has shown that they aren’t interested in using it for more than one game. Z moves are exclusive to gen 7, dynamax to gen 8, and now terastal to gen 9. Bans on these are much more wide sweeping than banning any Pokémon, hence why they require a multiple threads, including a policy review thread, to take any action. I don’t think it’s fair to compare it to anything else, because bans of this magnitude are extremely rare and should be taken as seriously as this is, especially if this is going to be done every generation. This is more akin to banning something like sleep, which I would want as much consideration and debate about because of how massively it would shift every single tier we play.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

The difference is there is now clearly going to be a very large mechanic that has a ton of impact across the game every generation, and game freak has shown that they aren’t interested in using it for more than one game. Z moves are exclusive to gen 7, dynamax to gen 8, and now terastal to gen 9. Bans on these are much more wide sweeping than banning any Pokémon, hence why they require a multitalented threads, including a policy review thread, to take any action. I don’t think it’s fair to compare it to anything else, because bans of this magnitude are extremely rare and should be taken as seriously as this is, especially if this is going to be done every generation. This is more akin to banning something like sleep, which I would want as much consideration and debate about because of how massively it would shift every single tier we play.

Exactly what I was trying to say on my previous comment. ELO Reqs for suspects akin to this one should probably be far higher, as these types of things being banned can change the game oftentimes more than any other single pokemon being banned or restricted, like something like sleep or freeze clause, or like gems being banned in black and white OU, since all those things could fundamentally change how the game was played, which is why I believe reqs should be decently higher for suspects in this nature as far as ELO goes.

 

[RoiDadadou]

Can we focus on OU guys?

 

[RoiDadadou]

3 Pokémon having 3 abilities being considered the "generational mechanic" of gen 5 is proof we should stop using this ridiculous term to influence discussion on tiering action

Gimmicks so far have been Gems/Mega/Z-Moves/Dyna/Tera.
No one ever called Paradox or Supreme Overlord the gimmick of the Gen. Just like no one called UltraBeasts and HDB such things.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Can we focus on OU guys?

Yeah, I was just trying to share my concerns a bit is all about how this suspect could be handled, and how I personally believe reqs should probably be far higher for tests in this nature since it changes the game far more oftentimes than any pokemon could change the meta.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Yeah, I was just trying to share my concerns a bit is all about how this suspect could be handled, and how I personally believe reqs should probably be far higher for tests in this nature since it changes the game far more oftentimes than any pokemon could change the meta.

Actually, this test doesn't have to be particularly game warping. A Tera Blast ban would significantly weaken Tera's most unhealthy application without affecting its several other applications or changing much about how the game is played

Gimmicks so far have been Gems/Mega/Z-Moves/Dyna/Tera.
No one ever called Paradox or Supreme Overlord the gimmick of the Gen. Just like no one called UltraBeasts and HDB such things.

And none of these so called "gimmicks" have been "off limits" or required special treatment with regards to tiering action. Unhealthy aspects should be removed from a metagame, regardless of whether they're "unique" or "special"

 

[RoiDadadou]

And none of these so called "gimmicks" have been "off limits" or required special treatment with regards to tiering action. Unhealthy aspects should be removed from a metagame, regardless of whether they're "unique" or "special"

I never said otherwise. I've been pro ban for Gems and Dyna. I just think Tera is much healthier, and perfectly fine as is. I've seen nobody half serious use the 'core mechanic' bullshit so far, so don't worry, it's not a main argument.

 

[mcandrew5629]

Can we please drop the discourse for a completely different metagame's suspect test, especially if you didn't even bother to meet reqs and/or vote? We shouldn't suddenly change established policy because you didn't like the result lol

 

[JunkoAJ]

if you had to be active on the forums for a set period of time and have posted enough prior to actually vote.

People who voted from other countries were barely active on the forums and oftentimes created accounts on here just to vote as soon as they got reqs. That rubs me the wrong way, and I feel like there should be a requirement where you should be a somewhat active member on the forums or have an old enough account to be able to vote, as something like that would prevent people from making forums accounts just to vote and would encourage them to actually interact with people before voting. Something about that test definitely went wrong besides inaction obviously, and I just don't want the same thing to happen to SV OU, where we vote no action because of players who never interacted on the forums before or had an account on here, or vote to take action but cannot decide how we go about it.

Is there an actual REASON for this? I need you to explain to me why non-English speakers should have an account for a forum that is primarily English speakers aside from the Translations sub-forum for analyses. This is arbitrarily moving the goalposts because the suspect test didn't reach an outcome you desired. There's so many people that play Showdown that do not use Smogon and all of these people deserve for their voice to be heard if they got voting requirements - end of discussion.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Gimmicks so far have been Gems/Mega/Z-Moves/Dyna/Tera.
No one ever called Paradox or Supreme Overlord the gimmick of the Gen. Just like no one called UltraBeasts and HDB such things.

Putting gems in that category is also pretty dubious if we're being honest. I wouldn't say the generational "gimmick" thing started until gen 6.

 

[Blue glass]

Yeah, I was just trying to share my concerns a bit is all about how this suspect could be handled, and how I personally believe reqs should probably be far higher for tests in this nature since it changes the game far more oftentimes than any pokemon could change the meta.

As implied in this post the only solution to this "problem" is making voting more accessible, so put translations of the voting requeriments and others related threads on a place that the chinese community can see with tutorials on how to make a smogon account and how to post a vote.

 

[FCKNfuego]

Actually, this test doesn't have to be particularly game warping. A Tera Blast ban would significantly weaken Tera's most unhealthy application without affecting its several other applications or changing much about how the game is played

A tera blast ban doesn't accomplish much and really should just be taken off the table. In banning Tera Blast you're restricting a move that's objectively not broken and doesn't wholly address the mechanic's issues anyway.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Is there an actual REASON for this? I need you to explain to me why non-English speakers should have an account for a forum that is primarily English speakers aside from the Translations sub-forum for analyses. This is arbitrarily moving the goalposts because the suspect test didn't reach an outcome you desired. There's so many people that play Showdown that do not use Smogon and all of these people deserve for their voice to be heard if they got voting requirements - end of discussion.

Disregard the first statement, I realized the flaw in that logic, and everyone should be able to vote that can qualify.

For the other though, I stand by the fact that reqs should be far higher for something like this due to the fact that the changes could end up being massive, as tera has a bigger impact on the meta than any other pokemon possibly could.

 

[SpritePony]

A tera blast ban doesn't accomplish much and really should just be taken off the table. In banning Tera Blast you're restricting a move that's objectively not broken and doesn't wholly address the mechanic's issues anyway.

This is a very valid point. And in banning Tera, you're making Tera Blast literally worthless anyway. A random 80BP Special Normal Move that damn near everything gets but doesn't want to use because it's locked to Normal type? Most people will pass on it, unless it's the only GOOD special Normal STAB a Pokemon gets. Hyper Voice and Boomburst both do better than Tera Blast without Tera.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

A tera blast ban doesn't accomplish much and really should just be taken off the table. In banning Tera Blast you're restricting a move that's objectively not broken and doesn't wholly address the mechanic's issues anyway.

By banning Tera Blast, you're restricting a move that's not broken, but restricting a mechanic that's broken, and removing a non broken move that makes the mechanic more broken and is inseparable from said mechanic minimizes collatoral. I'd actually say that Tera Blast giving every Pokémon super effective STAB against everything and/or perfect unresisted STAB coverage is very relevant to Tera's issues. What are the issues it doesn't address? The "guess a 1/4 Tera type correctly or lose to Kingambit" ones? Preview, which is not mutually exclusive to a Tera Blast ban, helps with this issue, and some players prefer this aspect being in the game, and have valid concerns about preview's impact, so it's best to leave it to a vote that allows for either restriction, or none at all or full ban, to be an option.

this ausma post details well what the objective of a Tera Blast ban would be and why it should be considered despite not being a "broken move" per se. The post been liked by half the council so I don't see a Tera Blast ban being taken off the table

 

[SnackWasTaken]

You could also say it was Wonder Launcher - common thread is that ALL 3 of these so called "generational mechanics" were subject to ban or restriction. So even if "generational gimmicks" were a material and not a completely subjective and made up concept, there is zero reason that they would be "off limits" or given special treatment during the tiering process

I always saw gems as a Gen 5 generational gimmick. Wonder launcher is more similar to a game exclusive format like Inverse Battles in gen 6.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

This is a very valid point. And in banning Tera, you're making Tera Blast literally worthless anyway. A random 80BP Special Normal Move that damn near everything gets but doesn't want to use because it's locked to Normal type? Most people will pass on it, unless it's the only GOOD special Normal STAB a Pokemon gets. Hyper Voice and Boomburst both do better than Tera Blast without Tera.

Banning Tera Blast I feel should not be in this survey, it may be directly related to Tera but it is its own move. Tera Blast should be a separate vote. On that subject, isn’t Tera Blast just more powerful HP that can only be used on one Pokémon?

 

[SpritePony]

Banning Tera Blast I feel should not be in this survey, it may be directly related to Tera but it is its own move. Tera Blast should be a separate vote. On that subject, isn’t Tera Blast just more powerful HP that can only be used on one Pokémon?

Not necessarily. Yes, it's stronger than HP ever was (80BP vs fixed 60 in Gen 6+, or max 70 in Gen 2-5), but HP doesn't rely on the user committing Tera to get full benefits.
The list of Pokemon that realistically can benefit from using Tera Blast at base and then stacking Tera on top of it is pretty damn short. Specs Cyclizar (unlikely), Meloetta, H-Zoroark (super good), Farigiraf, and debatably Arboliva.
What's the common link between these Pokemon? They are all usually Specially focused, and have Normal as a base type. Why does this matter? It means that no matter what, outside of moves like Soak, Tera Blast will always be STAB. No Tera? STAB boosted. With Tera? STAB boosted. On top of this, since you don't need to commit Tera to use it as a Special move, it performs better than on a Pokemon like Ursaluna whom needs to commit Tera to make proper use of the move.

 

[Napoli Burns]

In banning Tera Blast you're restricting a move that's objectively not broken

this like saying back in the days don't ban Metagrossite because metagross (normal) isn't broken or don't ban baton pass because poor espeon or don't ban last respects because the dog isn't really good without it

tera blast (as a move) is only the tip of the iceberg of the T E R A S T A L L I Z A T I O N problem

another mind blowing aspect on how good tera is broken is the fact u aren't FORCED to invest a slot on the pokemon moveset for being able to tera

 

[sims796]

Ok I was completely lost on what China had to do with anything regarding tera, thought that initial post was simply on the wrong forum and that the mods would make it disappear.

What the fuck i didn't sign up to discuss foreign policies, but apparently it's relevant? Do I want to know? Is this what was meant by "raising the barrier of entry"?

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Not necessarily. Yes, it's stronger than HP ever was (80BP vs fixed 60 in Gen 6+, or max 70 in Gen 2-5), but HP doesn't rely on the user committing Tera to get full benefits.
The list of Pokemon that realistically can benefit from using Tera Blast at base and then stacking Tera on top of it is pretty damn short. Specs Cyclizar (unlikely), Meloetta, H-Zoroark (super good), Farigiraf, and debatably Arboliva.
What's the common link between these Pokemon? They are all usually Specially focused, and have Normal as a base type. Why does this matter? It means that no matter what, outside of moves like Soak, Tera Blast will always be STAB. No Tera? STAB boosted. With Tera? STAB boosted. On top of this, since you don't need to commit Tera to use it as a Special move, it performs better than on a Pokemon like Ursaluna whom needs to commit Tera to make proper use of the move.

Yes, there are a handful of Pokémon that have always STAB in Tera Blast. It is a good, optimal strategy for these mons.
However, is this actually viable? Well, if you discount H-Zoroark, which is already a strong mon, then no. This is because none of the Pokémon this strategy is tied to are very strong. Notice that other than Ursaluna, a physical attacker that thus doesn’t get the double benefits, there are no normal type Pokémon in OU.
So my point is, while this perma-STAB is good on paper, and a very optimal strategy for those who can utilize it, the strategy is only tied to one viable mon. For the difference between optimal and viable, Blip Exists has a good, short video on those that I’ve pinned to the bottom of this post. Hope you’ve learned something new from me!