Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

[Srn]

I never said otherwise. I've been pro ban for Gems and Dyna. I just think Tera is much healthier, and perfectly fine as is. I've seen nobody half serious use the 'core mechanic' bullshit so far, so don't worry, it's not a main argument.

Lol I wish. Let me actually highlight the exact parts where Nat uses the generational mechanic argument.

Outside of factors that essentially amount to skill issue, I think it'd be kind of a meme to see us ban the generational gimmick for two gens in a row, which will ultimately span 5+ years. I voted ban>no ban>preview in the previous suspect, but with time I've felt tera really is not as bad as dynamax was. Unlike dynamax we've had ample time to adapt to tera and I'd loathe seeing it removed/seriously altered. Preview to me is the death of gen 9, a concept that lowers the aforementioned skill ceiling yet also makes it less enjoyable in a serious environment. Creativity in the builder is invariably stifled, as the reward of tera-innovation is instead presented to your opponent immediately. More unnatural decisions about if your opponent will tera/if you will in more specialized situations and other interactions will occur that you wouldn't otherwise be privy to, without fail. In effect, play and building both would be hampered. I've changed my opinion a lot on tera since the start of the gen but preview being unviable is the lone constant for me. Vert is probably right that it'd just be a gateway for people to slide down the slope of eventually banning tera, too. Going through 3+ forms of generational gimmick allowance in a single gen would be pathetic. More than anything I hope this option is not slated. I think slating two forms of restriction is a colossal, absurd mess. But, I would be more open to tera blast being slated.

So is Nat somebody not half serious? I sure took their argument seriously. Oh and right below that:

If there is a test, it should be between doing nothing and preview.

A full ban would be the most overtly disastrous decision that would kill SV immediately. Our hand was forced with SS and it has sort of made its identity around not having a dedicated mechanic, but we can’t do that twice. Tera is also nowhere near as broken as dmax.

I also feel like, in practice, games are not that random and types are reasonably predictable. It’s still a skillful tier that contains consistent players. I used to think no restriction was uncompetitive but then I actually tried playing. Don’t fuck this one up please.

Also, banning terablast is epic but like as a separate test.

Is ABR somebody not half serious as well? I sure see this 'core mechanic' bullshit popping up a lot in pro-tera posts lol!
You gave ABR's post a big ol' love react so I hope you read it and didn't forget they made this argument.

I get it's not the main argument (that being that tera is skillful) but it's kinda weird how people still feel the need to mention it, as if it's relevant in any way!

 

[sims796]

Not necessarily. Yes, it's stronger than HP ever was (80BP vs fixed 60 in Gen 6+, or max 70 in Gen 2-5), but HP doesn't rely on the user committing Tera to get full benefits.
The list of Pokemon that realistically can benefit from using Tera Blast at base and then stacking Tera on top of it is pretty damn short. Specs Cyclizar (unlikely), Meloetta, H-Zoroark (super good), Farigiraf, and debatably Arboliva.

Not debatable, it's an excellent move on Arboliva.

 

[furyofyuriy]

Banning Tera Blast I feel should not be in this survey, it may be directly related to Tera but it is its own move. Tera Blast should be a separate vote. On that subject, isn’t Tera Blast just more powerful HP that can only be used on one Pokémon?

Agreed, because arguably Tera Blast is functionally a worse Hidden Power. As you pointed out, it has higher BP. But it comes at the cost of wasting a precious move slot on an Base 80 special move that your mon may never use given that it might not Tera. There has been exactly 1 mon banned because of Tera Blast. Otherwise, the majority of users reside in lower tiers outside a handful of mons that can splash it in OU but typically don't.

 

[SpritePony]

Yes, there are a handful of Pokémon that have always STAB in Tera Blast. It is a good, optimal strategy for these mons.
However, is this actually viable? Well, if you discount H-Zoroark, which is already a strong mon, then no. This is because none of the Pokémon this strategy is tied to are very strong. Notice that other than Ursaluna, a physical attacker that thus doesn’t get the double benefits, there are no normal type Pokémon in OU.
So my point is, while this perma-STAB is good on paper, and a very optimal strategy for those who can utilize it, the strategy is only tied to one viable mon. For the difference between optimal and viable, Blip Exists has a good, short video on those that I’ve pinned to the bottom of this post. Hope you’ve learned something new from me!

Yup, I already knew of this. It was actually kind of the point I was making, but forgot to add it in (as I was rushed to go get groceries.) Optimal vs Viable is always going to be the endless debate, but I'd say that H-Zoroark, Arboliva, and Farigiraf are the best users of it, regardless of their tiers.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Banning Tera Blast I feel should not be in this survey, it may be directly related to Tera but it is its own move. Tera Blast should be a separate vote. On that subject, isn’t Tera Blast just more powerful HP that can only be used on one Pokémon?

Tera Blast isn't really its own move because there's next to no use cases for it independent of Terastalization. Removing it from the tier impacts Terastalization and Terastalization only.

Tera Blast is not functionally worse than Hidden Power as others have claimed as it always gets STAB coming off 80 base power and is legitimately useful even when it isn't super effective, unlike hidden power, which exists only to exploit weaknesses. Pokémon like Kingambit, Dragapult, and Goltres (both physical and special) use it as secondary stab to gain perfect neutral STAB coverage, something that throwing HP Ice or Fire onto a special attacker to hit Lando or Ferrothorn doesn't remotely compare to

 

[Vrin]

Comparing Tera Blast to Hidden Power is crazy to me. Nothing has ever swept by spamming Hidden Power; it was always used as a coverage option. HP Ghost Keldeo or HP Bug Dugtrio or HP Ice Raikou never swept by throwing out powerful Hidden Powers, they used it as coverage to hit a specific thing (typically because it walled their real STAB that they wanted to spam instead, though there are exceptions like Dugtrio using it to trap Celebi). Contrarily, Tera Blast users (Volcarona, Dragapult, Regieleki, Espathra, Articuno-Galar, Dragonite, Gyarados, Valiant, Sandy Shocks, Frosmoth...) almost invariably use it as an additional STAB; Valiant gets spammable Electric STAB, Volcarona gets spammable Water or Fairy or whatever STAB, Frosmoth gets the incredible Ice + Ground dual STAB combo. The only real exception I can think of is Gholdengo, who already has its sexy spammable Ghost STAB and only really uses Tera Fighting as a more accurate Focus Blast (a niche Hidden Power would be too weak to serve regardless except vs specifically Kingambit). Hidden Power and Tera Blast are simply not used similarly at all; the former is used to try to open up opportunities to spam your STAB, whereas the latter creates another (frequently better) STAB to spam instead. The moves might look similar on paper, but anyone who's actually played the tiers in question should be able to recognize the practical differences easily.

If you want an example of this, note that basically nothing is running Tera Ground only to hit Heatran, or Tera Ice specifically to hit Landorus-T. Mons that run those types run them because they're generally good Tera types that also happen to hit threatening Pokemon. Tera Ground Volcarona frequently swept primarily using Tera Blast, whereas HP Ground Volcarona really only hit Heatran (it wouldn't even be strong enough to blast through Toxapex). Tera Ice Sandy Shocks often manages to pick up multiple kills with Tera Blast, oftentimes on neutral targets, rather than specifically luring a single Ground type with it and then proceeding to just spam TBolt again.

This comparison is ridiculous and betrays a greater concern for aesthetic elements rather than for the actual practical effects of the move on the tier. You can oppose a Tera Blast ban on other merits (as mentioned, I do not think it addresses the real issues of Tera), but any comparisons to Hidden Power are illegitimate. There is a massive difference between creating a new STAB to sweep with and just adding a new coverage option.

(And obviously, Hidden Power is way more restricted than Tera due to it being special-only and typically too weak to OHKO anything that isn't a 4x weakness. The ban Tera Blast side wants to curb variance and matchup fishing; even if Hidden Power were somehow comparable to Tera Blast, its fundamental restrictions on what can use it effectively makes these factors far more manageable fundamentally. "Hidden Power but over 2x less restricted" would, in fact, probably be recognized as very problematic, since Hidden Power as a move is already very good and flexible.)

 

[SpritePony]

Comparing Tera Blast to Hidden Power is crazy to me. Nothing has ever swept by spamming Hidden Power; it was always used as a coverage option. HP Ghost Keldeo or HP Bug Dugtrio or HP Ice Raikou never swept by throwing out powerful Hidden Powers, they used it as coverage to hit a specific thing (typically because it walled their real STAB that they wanted to spam instead, though there are exceptions like Dugtrio using it to trap Celebi). Contrarily, Tera Blast users (Volcarona, Dragapult, Regieleki, Espathra, Articuno-Galar, Dragonite, Gyarados, Valiant, Sandy Shocks, Frosmoth...) almost invariably use it as an additional STAB; Valiant gets spammable Electric STAB, Volcarona gets spammable Water or Fairy or whatever STAB, Frosmoth gets the incredible Ice + Ground dual STAB combo. The only real exception I can think of is Gholdengo, who already has its sexy spammable Ghost STAB and only really uses Tera Fighting as a more accurate Focus Blast (a niche Hidden Power would be too weak to serve regardless except vs specifically Kingambit). Hidden Power and Tera Blast are simply not used similarly at all; the former is used to try to open up opportunities to spam your STAB, whereas the latter creates another (frequently better) STAB to spam instead. The moves might look similar on paper, but anyone who's actually played the tiers in question should be able to recognize the practical differences easily.

If you want an example of this, note that basically nothing is running Tera Ground only to hit Heatran, or Tera Ice specifically to hit Landorus-T. Mons that run those types run them because they're generally good Tera types that also happen to hit threatening Pokemon. Tera Ground Volcarona frequently swept primarily using Tera Blast, whereas HP Ground Volcarona really only hit Heatran (it wouldn't even be strong enough to blast through Toxapex). Tera Ice Sandy Shocks often manages to pick up multiple kills with Tera Blast, oftentimes on neutral targets, rather than specifically luring a single Ground type with it and then proceeding to just spam TBolt again.

This comparison is ridiculous and betrays a greater concern for aesthetic elements rather than for the actual practical effects of the move on the tier. You can oppose a Tera Blast ban on other merits (as mentioned, I do not think it addresses the real issues of Tera), but any comparisons to Hidden Power are illegitimate.

Ah, yes, because comparing coverage to hard mechanic committal coverage is totally an illegitimate thing. /s

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Ah, yes, because comparing coverage to hard mechanic committal coverage is totally an illegitimate thing. /s

"Committing to a mechanic" doesn't matter if the game ends very quickly after this commitment is made, as is often the case when sweepers Tera and start firing off STAB Tera Blast Fairy/Fighting

 

[Kamenridingwaves]

Terastallization will get "restricted" by T-Preview and very little will change, then they ban Kingambit, Dragapult, Iron Valient, maybe half a dozen more... It was then revealed that tera was a totally balanced and not broken at all (regieleki was totally broken trust me bro, also last respects should've been banned instead of houndstone.)

 

[SpritePony]

"Committing to a mechanic" doesn't matter if the game ends very quickly after this commitment is made, as is often the case when sweepers Tera and start firing off STAB Tera Blast Fairy/Fighting

IF they carry it. Most often, I find Teras to be either defensive options (covering weaknesses, checking more things, etc) or an offensive STAB option (IE: Ghost Pult, Water Quaq, etc.) Unless it is different at exceptionally high ladder, not everything is on Tera + Tera Blast.

 

[Vrin]

Ah, yes, because comparing coverage to hard mechanic committal coverage is totally an illegitimate thing. /s

My point is that Tera Blast existing creates new sweepers wholecloth, whereas Hidden Power allows existing sweepers to deal with, like, 2 or 3 more things. Like HP Ghost Keldeo hit 3, maybe 4 mons for nonnegligible damage (Lati@s (which Icy Wind was better against anyway), Jellicent, arguably Celebi but it was bad at it), most HP Ice-using Electrics could only really use it effectively vs the handful of 4x weaks in the tier (Hippowdon wasn't ever getting killed by it and even Gliscor often took one), and most HP Ground users were really ONLY using it for Heatran. DPP/BW Latis would KILL for Tera Fighting as a generic attack option, but typically don't even run HP Fighting unless they specifically want to hit TTar (and even then, Surf is often preferred and even EQ is ran sometimes). But most mons that use Tera Ghost or Ice or Ground right now use those types as their main neutral option while sweeping.

Tera Blast isn't allowing existing sweepers to win 2 or 3 specific matchups, it's creating entirely new sweepers with entirely new offensive profiles. This is a massive practical difference in how unpredictable and matchup-fishy the tier is, no matter how many snippy sarcastic one-liner comments you make about how aesthetically similar the description fields of the moves are.

 

[ant4456]

A generational mechanic has a priority over other mechanics, sorry not sorry, this being debated is silly.

If Dynamax was not literally unable to be balanced, it would not have been banned.

Z-Moves were once debated, and kind of still are, and guess what: The counter-arguments were that it made the gen more different, it's a generational mechanic, we should preserve it as best as we can, and that without it it would just be a progression of ORAS. You can go read the Policy Review thread right now.

Generational mechanics get more prominence because they completely shape the game outside of Megas, which were very uncontroversial due to their nature. Gen 7 without Z-Moves is not Gen 7 to me, period, and if Tera stays that will remain the same.

I am sorry, but you will not deny the fact that a generational mechanic will not be seen the same as one Pokemon, or King's Rock, Baton Pass, etc. Because it is a core to the appeal of picking up the games, it transfers as a core of what makes competitive Gen 9 different.

If we are to stray from that, it will need extraordinary evidence to fit the extraordinary demand of deleting that from our collective metagame.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

IF they carry it. Most often, I find Teras to be either defensive options (covering weaknesses, checking more things, etc) or an offensive STAB option (IE: Ghost Pult, Water Quaq, etc.) Unless it is different at exceptionally high ladder, not everything is on Tera + Tera Blast.

Do you find these applications of Tera to be problematic? If not, then that's in favor of a Tera Blast ban, which would not impede on these applications.

 

[SpritePony]

Do you find these applications of Tera to be problematic? If not, then that's in favor of a Tera Blast ban, which would not impede on these applications.

I'm in favor of no action on Tera as a whole. Neither Tera nor Tera Blast.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Tera is fine as is if anything we need to get this thread over with so we can have the suspect and see the actual results instead of circular bickering

 

[furyofyuriy]

Comparing Tera Blast to Hidden Power is crazy to me. Nothing has ever swept by spamming Hidden Power; it was always used as a coverage option. HP Ghost Keldeo or HP Bug Dugtrio or HP Ice Raikou never swept by throwing out powerful Hidden Powers, they used it as coverage to hit a specific thing (typically because it walled their real STAB that they wanted to spam instead, though there are exceptions like Dugtrio using it to trap Celebi). Contrarily, Tera Blast users (Volcarona, Dragapult, Regieleki, Espathra, Articuno-Galar, Dragonite, Gyarados, Valiant, Sandy Shocks, Frosmoth...) almost invariably use it as an additional STAB; Valiant gets spammable Electric STAB, Volcarona gets spammable Water or Fairy or whatever STAB, Frosmoth gets the incredible Ice + Ground dual STAB combo. The only real exception I can think of is Gholdengo, who already has its sexy spammable Ghost STAB and only really uses Tera Fighting as a more accurate Focus Blast (a niche Hidden Power would be too weak to serve regardless except vs specifically Kingambit). Hidden Power and Tera Blast are simply not used similarly at all; the former is used to try to open up opportunities to spam your STAB, whereas the latter creates another (frequently better) STAB to spam instead. The moves might look similar on paper, but anyone who's actually played the tiers in question should be able to recognize the practical differences easily.

There not comparable because Tera Blast is worse in every aspect other than base power. Yes, a handful of mons can run Tera Blast and function as sweepers, allowing for a more reliable STAB option than other alternatives, Tera Ghost Dragapult is an excellent example. But lets not forget that Hidden Power as a move literally kept mons in higher tiers since it's creation and when it was axed in gen 8 those mons held up by the move fell off.

The fact is, hidden power was a coverage move that was much more splash able. Tera Blast requires a hard commitment. Sure, it can become a sweeping move, but if your argument is that "it's a great sweeping move on set up sweepers", so was hidden power. Tera Blast requires a commitment and often times that move sits unused on a mon because you never tera'd that mon. Frosmoth, Volc, Eleki, Galarticuno, and Esparthra used it to great effect because they either had an incredible set up move/ability to enable it or had such a shit move pool they could afford to run it.

Tera Blast isn't allowing existing sweepers to win 2 or 3 specific matchups, it's creating entirely new sweepers with entirely new offensive profiles. This is a massive practical difference in how unpredictable and matchup-fishy the tier is, no matter how many snippy sarcastic one-liner comments you make about how aesthetically similar the description fields of the moves are.

Your forgetting something rather important, that the loss of Hidden Power also PREVENTED much more snowbally hyper sweepers in gen 8 and 9. Let's hypothetically say that Hidden Power remained in gen 8. Eleki would have gone straight to Ubers. Many Lower tier mons like Frosmoth would have probably been in OU or UU because they had the tools to sweep but not the coverage. Tera Blast is balanced compared to Hidden Power because there is a risk/reward to it. Tera Flying Gyarados is strong with Tera Blast, but if you don't Tera then your stuck with a base 80 special attack that's clogging your moveset and restricting your options.

 

[Srn]

A generational mechanic has a priority over other mechanics, sorry not sorry, this being debated is silly.

If Dynamax was not literally unable to be balanced, it would not have been banned.

Z-Moves were once debated, and kind of still are, and guess what: The counter-arguments were that it made the gen more different, it's a generational mechanic, we should preserve it as best as we can, and that without it it would just be a progression of ORAS. You can go read the Policy Review thread right now.

Generational mechanics get more prominence because they completely shape the game outside of Megas, which were very uncontroversial due to their nature. Gen 7 without Z-Moves is not Gen 7 to me, period, and if Tera stays that will remain the same.

I am sorry, but you will not deny the fact that a generational mechanic will not be seen the same as one Pokemon, or King's Rock, Baton Pass, etc. Because it is a core to the appeal of picking up the games, it transfers as a core of what makes competitive Gen 9 different.

If we are to stray from that, it will need extraordinary evidence to fit the extraordinary demand of deleting that from our collective metagame.

Let be more clear:
"A generational gimmick will never be quickbanned" to paraphrase finch.
This is the extent of special treatment that is acceptable to me. Even if we get dynamax on steroids I can understand a suspect test and not a quickban.

Every argument you listed to keep z-move is a bad one imo. Z-moves should stay in gen7 because they are competitive, skillful, balanced and healthy. That's it.

I don't really care if other people see generational gimmicks in a special way. Appealing to outsiders to join our competitive community is very important, but we're not going to compromise competitive integrity in the process. Making Gen9 feel different is not a priority when making tiering decisions, making Gen9 a competitive, stable, and balanced tier is. Of course, it will also feel different regardless of whether we keep or ban tera. I can repeat myself for the 57th time and say we have paradox mons, less recovery pp, less toxic, less scald, less defog, more hazards, etc etc but it never seems to stick.

Nobody half serious is denying that we need evidence to ban tera. The fact that a supermajority of the community wants tiering action on tera is one part of that. We're also considering banning tera blast, a move which is in no way broken or unhealthy on its own, purely to limit an unhealthy mechanic, rather than acting on the mechanic itself. And tera is directly responsible for some problems, because we wouldn't entertain banning tera blast otherwise. Seems like we're dancing around the real problem and very few people are ready to commit to the real solution.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

A generational mechanic has a priority over other mechanics, sorry not sorry, this being debated is silly.

If Dynamax was not literally unable to be balanced, it would not have been banned.

Z-Moves were once debated, and kind of still are, and guess what: The counter-arguments were that it made the gen more different, it's a generational mechanic, we should preserve it as best as we can, and that without it it would just be a progression of ORAS. You can go read the Policy Review thread right now.

Generational mechanics get more prominence because they completely shape the game outside of Megas, which were very uncontroversial due to their nature. Gen 7 without Z-Moves is not Gen 7 to me, period, and if Tera stays that will remain the same.

I am sorry, but you will not deny the fact that a generational mechanic will not be seen the same as one Pokemon, or King's Rock, Baton Pass, etc. Because it is a core to the appeal of picking up the games, it transfers as a core of what makes competitive Gen 9 different.

If we are to stray from that, it will need extraordinary evidence to fit the extraordinary demand of deleting that from our collective metagame.

I find it very interesting that Gens 1-4 didn't even have these so called "generational mechanics" and yet these formats are all completely different, and that no one can agree what Gen 5's "generational gimmick" is yet no one can deny it's a very unique generation, and that Gen 7 also featured another gen's "generational mechanic" and yet was still completely different. It seems to me like generations are defined by the sum of many aspects and mechanics and not singularly by one mechanic each, and there are a number of things you could remove from each generation that would radically alter how they are played.

Ignoring the fact that "Tera is the only thing that makes Gen 9 unique" is a straight up lie (numerous extremely important new Pokémon and movepool changes completely reshape this gen compared to the previous,) there's also a pretty major aspect making it unique: it is the current generation. We should strive to make the current metagame as balanced as possible. Trying to make the metagame "unique" compared to old out of date metagames is just as asinine as centering other metagames such as VGC, STABmons, Freedom Cup, AAA, and others in this discussion. Old gens exist for the few people who want to play them just for fun, not as a replacement for Smogon's flagship metagame. Just because there were people using the completely arbitrary "generational gimmick, must be unique from the last generation" talking point in old discussions does not mean they were correct to do so.

I would also argue that removing Tera (and especially Tera Blast) from the tier would not be the sole game-changing removal theoretically possible in the tier. Removing say Great Tusk from the tier would completely reshape the tier's dynamics just as much if not more than Tera. Tera is not unique, and tiering action on it can actually be fairly inconsequential in the case of less stifling action such as Tera Blast ban and maybe Preview.

I'm in favor of no action on Tera as a whole. Neither Tera nor Tera Blast.

On principle, or because you are worried about the impact that Tera Blast Ban or Team Preview would have?

 

[Vrin]

[snip]

I mean, if you want to test your point, play BW OU but give Latios access to No Guard Focus Blast and see how quickly the tier comes apart. Remember, Latios doesn't even run HP Fighting all that commonly.

Like, obviously there's downsides to Tera Blast relative to Hidden Power — you have to commit to it by using your Tera rather than using it as an option to break specific threats, etc. But all these differences manifest in it being so different in practical play from Hidden Power that any comparison between the two completely ignores why people (not me) want a Tera Blast ban in the first place.

Man, it feels crazy to defend a standpoint I don't even have, but like... Even if you disagree with it, is it so hard to just try to understand why people want it banned before coming out with these comparisons? People want a Tera Blast ban because (they claim) being able to create sweepers with entirely new offensive and defensive profiles increases matchup variance and makes games less predictable. This is something Hidden Power NEVER did. HP was usually fairly predictable (at most you had questions like "is the Electric HP Grass or HP Ice" in ADV, but even that is child's play compared to most Tera Blast users) and didn't totally change the way an offensive threat worked, it just fixed a couple of matchups. HP Fire wasn't ran so that you could start spamming neutral Fire moves across the tier and tear through defensive cores without a decent Fire resist, it was really JUST to hit Ferrothorn and Scizor, and maybe deal a decent amount of damage to Skarm or something. Totally different dynamic.

I do not care which is "better" or "worse" or which has "more opportunity cost" or what. My point is that such sophistry is irrelevant; comparisons to Hidden Power are entirely orthogonal to the reason people want Tera Blast banned since Hidden Power does not whatsoever possess the problematic aspects they allege Tera Blast has (and you can disagree that Tera Blast possesses these aspects, that's fine, but then you have to defend that point directly rather than making these irrelevant non-sequiturs).

 

[Liz Angeles]

Lol I wish. Let me actually highlight the exact parts where Nat uses the generational mechanic argument.

So is Nat somebody not half serious? I sure took their argument seriously. Oh and right below that:

Is ABR somebody not half serious as well? I sure see this 'core mechanic' bullshit popping up a lot in pro-tera posts lol!
You gave ABR's post a big ol' love react so I hope you read it and didn't forget they made this argument.

I get it's not the main argument (that being that tera is skillful) but it's kinda weird how people still feel the need to mention it, as if it's relevant in any way!

I would argue that the fact that tera is a "generational mechanic" is inherently a contributing factor to people wanting to ban/restrict it as well, if there was an expectation that it would exist beyond gen 9 (which it almost certainly won't) then imo it becomes far more difficult to ban it. That's not to say that no one would argue for a restriction or ban, I just think it would be less likely to result in a suspect test or ban. I say this because I can't think of another mechanic that's outright banned. Ultimately the reason people mention not wanting to ban the generational mechanic a second gen in a row is because it shouldn't be the norm, it should be a last resort.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Tera Blast isn't allowing existing sweepers to win 2 or 3 specific matchups, it's creating entirely new sweepers with entirely new offensive profiles. This is a massive practical difference in how unpredictable and matchup-fishy the tier is, no matter how many snippy sarcastic one-liner comments you make about how aesthetically similar the description fields of the moves are.

This is all fine and true. However, when you change these offensive profiles, you prevent other Pokémon from doing so as well. Hidden power produced nigh infinite coverage for the whole team. Tera Blast produces stronger coverage you have to commit to and can only use on one Mon, and excluding Zoroark from the conversation it’s useless otherwise.
To be clear, I only started this HP vs TB debate to point out how everyone was crying an amount of tears worth calling the waaambulance for when HP left in gen 8, but people got mad when Tera blast came in gen 9 as a compromise from GF.

 

[Rootb]

I find it very interesting that Gens 1-4 didn't even have these so called "generational mechanics" and yet these formats are all completely different, and that no one can agree what Gen 5's "generational gimmick" is yet no one can deny it's a very unique generation, and that Gen 7 also featured another gen's "generational mechanic" and yet was still completely different. It seems to me like generations are defined by the sum of many aspects and mechanics and not singularly by one mechanic each, and there are a number of things you could remove from each generation that would radically alter how they are played.

This is because the game was, quite literally, still being formed.

Gen 1 was a bug-riddled mess, and Gen 2 was the first game that was really a "finished, tested" product. Gen 3 introduced Abilities, which were a massive game-changer. And Gen 4's introduction of the Phys/Special split is literally the foundation on which the modern game is built.

Really, it's gen 5 that's the weird outlier between "the old world" and "the modern one". 1-4 were changing major things game-to-game, and 6-9 have their own generational additions. You can definitely make an argument that Megas were originally meant to be a forever thing until Dexit happened, but it did, and Megas didn't come with it

As far as why that matters? I posted this in the metagame discussion thread, but Dynamax's initial ban was 86.7% in favor, in a straight vote. Pretty much everyone hated it. And its removal, while justified, definitely paved the way towards arguments that we can do it again. And that's true! We totally can. But even you have to admit: Tera would never get close to that lofty 87% full-ban.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

This is all fine and true. However, when you change these offensive profiles, you prevent other Pokémon from doing so as well. Hidden power produced nigh infinite coverage for the whole team. Tera Blast produces stronger coverage you have to commit to and can only use on one Mon, and excluding Zoroark from the conversation it’s useless otherwise.
To be clear, I only started this HP vs TB debate to point out how everyone was crying an amount of tears worth calling the waaambulance for when HP left in gen 8, but people got mad when Tera blast came in gen 9 as a compromise from GF.

Doesn't matter when 1 Mon is all it takes. Committing to it is very rarely a downside, and never with proper planning. That "nigh infinite coverage" was not a STAB 80 power move with a type of your choice, it was a weak move for sniping specific weaknesses. Completely different applications and much more specific ones.

As far as why that matters? I posted this in the metagame discussion thread, but Dynamax's initial ban was 86.7% in favor, in a straight vote. Pretty much everyone hated it. And its removal, while justified, definitely paved the way towards arguments that we can do it again. And that's true! We totally can. But even you have to admit: Tera would never get close to that lofty 87% full-ban.

And that's why compromises such as Tera Blast Ban, which is not a broken move but an aspect of Tera that augments its problematic traits and doesn't affect its positive ones, are very much worth discussing

 

[Blue glass]

Hide

This is because the game was, quite literally, still being formed.

Gen 1 was a bug-riddled mess, and Gen 2 was the first game that was really a "finished, tested" product. Gen 3 introduced Abilities, which were a massive game-changer. And Gen 4's introduction of the Phys/Special split is literally the foundation on which the modern game is built.

Really, it's gen 5 that's the weird outlier between "the old world" and "the modern one". 1-4 were changing major things game-to-game, and 6-9 have their own generational additions. You can definitely make an argument that Megas were originally meant to be a forever thing until Dexit happened, but it did, and Megas didn't come with it

As far as why that matters? I posted this in the metagame discussion thread, but Dynamax's initial ban was 86.7% in favor, in a straight vote. Pretty much everyone hated it. And its removal, while justified, definitely paved the way towards arguments that we can do it again. And that's true! We totally can. But even you have to admit: Tera would never get close to that lofty 87% full-ban.

To be fair Gen V introduced team preview which is highly influential to modern Pokémon. Just imagine how many more complaints about 50-50 there would be without it.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

To be fair Gen V introduced team preview which is highly influential to modern Pokémon. Just imagine how many more complaints about 50-50 there would be without it.

We're now up to 4 "generational mechanics" for Gen 5