Quick Claw was also not acted on because it doesn't activate enough to be a legitimate issue. What separates anything you're saying from moves that have a flinch chance?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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Quick Claw was also not acted on because it doesn't activate enough to be a legitimate issue. What separates anything you're saying from moves that have a flinch chance?
I've played against Scarf Sneasler once or twice. It's the most ass-backward thing to run into and it ran train on me. Then again, I can't say much. I've used Scarf Cinder before.
Banning Gambit = Big Stall wins.
I don't know if this is a rhetorical question but I'll answer it as such, the reason Quick Claw hasn't been acted on is because of other pressing issues as stated by the council, the difference between Dire Claw and a "Flinch chance" is that one requires you to move faster then the opposition in order to work and Dire Claw has no such requirement outside not being a steel type when using it against the opponent which isn't difficult to maneuver against. So yeah 2 different status inductions / moves
This is on my list of Suspects I want to happen just so we can drop the topic (with or without the result I'd hope for). It's another circular discussion where every time it comes up it raises the Hax debate that doesn't even technically have a correct answer, and I'm sick of this being the only thing Sneasler is known for. Unlike Houndstone and most Baton Passers, it's a Mon with a viable presence if people would stop using this PoS Signature move: seriously, there is no reason to click Dire Claw unless you're trying to Hax a Bo1 Set when Gunk Shot hits literally everything you'd "normally" aim a Poison STAB at, while being contactless.
At this point I'm hoping they give DC to the DLC Poisons just so we have ground to ban it and move on with our lives and I can get back to (hypothetically) playing actual games with a viable mon I like.
These Kingambit / Bisharp arguments are silly. Bisharp will never be a suitable replacement for Kingambit outside of maybe, just maybe HO on slight occasion because Kingambit has better bulk, and often Leftovers recovery.
This Leftovers recovery is compounded with Sucker Punch, threatening more switches on the Ghost-Types it checks hard, and therefore gaining more recovery. Yeah, with little investment Kingambit probably takes more than an Eviolite Bisharp, but once that damage is on Bisharp it's there forever. In my opinion, one of the most dangerous parts of Kingambit's kit is simply being able to recover for a long time. Unless it's literally "I can OHKO back if I get this Sucker Punch 50/50 win, even if Kingambit is at 100%" (not common with Tera), Kingambit can often literally 50/50 its way to gaining lots of recovery, making the 50/50s even further in Gambit's favor.
Lastly, this whole freak out about Ghost-Type checks is weird anyways. Besides for the few Mandibuzz in early Gen 8 OU, the rarer Tyranitar, only Pokemon such as... Bisharp were actually Dark-Types in OU. Because you don't need a Dark-Type to check Dragapult, at all, and never have.
Don't forget, this is a base 100 Special Attack Pokemon. Its speed carries its middling offenses, allowing it to run Specs. If shit was even 350 Speed, it'd be like RUBL, its speed allowing it to own other offensive Pokemon and Specs helping break BO cores is what makes Dragapult so good.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl: 259-306 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery]
Though personally I would run more SpDef this is a spread that isn't even that commital, and with Protect/Lefties recovery you can get out of 2HKO range and suck up the comparatively low Draco PP, or make a Recovery read on a switch if the Dragapult player expects you to do this.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Heatran: 117-138 (30.3 - 35.7%) --
Specially Defensive Heatran is a good temporary check to Specs Dragapult in the early game that can make good progress with Magma Storm trapping immediately.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 132-156 (33 - 39%) --
Specially Defensive Corviknight struggles against Fire coverage, but it takes Shadow Balls very well.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 178-210 (41.2 - 48.6%) --
Amoongus with little investment loses little when it can switch with Regenerator, or stay in to Spore.
Do I even need to talk about Ting-Lu?
Of course, Dragapult has Tera now, and that is a huge boon to its middling offenses. But that doesn't mean when Dragapult doesn't have Kingambit, it immediately breaks the game. Shit, nothing is stopping you from running Tera Blast Fighting this very second, it's just that Dragapult often would rather accept its bad Kingambit matchup, and use Tera Ghost for other things.
Most of this goes for Gholdengo too, also.
Dragapult doesn't need a fucking Ubers-ass motherfucker with almost Garganacl bulk, a bajillion attack, a broken ability and perfect typing to be checked lol
This Leftovers recovery is compounded with Sucker Punch, threatening more switches on the Ghost-Types it checks hard, and therefore gaining more recovery. Yeah, with little investment Kingambit probably takes more than an Eviolite Bisharp, but once that damage is on Bisharp it's there forever. In my opinion, one of the most dangerous parts of Kingambit's kit is simply being able to recover for a long time. Unless it's literally "I can OHKO back if I get this Sucker Punch 50/50 win, even if Kingambit is at 100%" (not common with Tera), Kingambit can often literally 50/50 its way to gaining lots of recovery, making the 50/50s even further in Gambit's favor.
Lastly, this whole freak out about Ghost-Type checks is weird anyways. Besides for the few Mandibuzz in early Gen 8 OU, the rarer Tyranitar, only Pokemon such as... Bisharp were actually Dark-Types in OU. Because you don't need a Dark-Type to check Dragapult, at all, and never have.
Don't forget, this is a base 100 Special Attack Pokemon. Its speed carries its middling offenses, allowing it to run Specs. If shit was even 350 Speed, it'd be like RUBL, its speed allowing it to own other offensive Pokemon and Specs helping break BO cores is what makes Dragapult so good.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl: 259-306 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery]
Though personally I would run more SpDef this is a spread that isn't even that commital, and with Protect/Lefties recovery you can get out of 2HKO range and suck up the comparatively low Draco PP, or make a Recovery read on a switch if the Dragapult player expects you to do this.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Heatran: 117-138 (30.3 - 35.7%) --
Specially Defensive Heatran is a good temporary check to Specs Dragapult in the early game that can make good progress with Magma Storm trapping immediately.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 132-156 (33 - 39%) --
Specially Defensive Corviknight struggles against Fire coverage, but it takes Shadow Balls very well.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 178-210 (41.2 - 48.6%) --
Amoongus with little investment loses little when it can switch with Regenerator, or stay in to Spore.
Do I even need to talk about Ting-Lu?
Of course, Dragapult has Tera now, and that is a huge boon to its middling offenses. But that doesn't mean when Dragapult doesn't have Kingambit, it immediately breaks the game. Shit, nothing is stopping you from running Tera Blast Fighting this very second, it's just that Dragapult often would rather accept its bad Kingambit matchup, and use Tera Ghost for other things.
Most of this goes for Gholdengo too, also.
Dragapult doesn't need a fucking Ubers-ass motherfucker with almost Garganacl bulk, a bajillion attack, a broken ability and perfect typing to be checked lol
I was actually messing with calcs with the move on Zapdos last night, and the only functional difference with using Dire Claw over Gunk Shot is that you risk getting Paralyzed from Static and thus becoming worthless. Hell, the Unburden set can't even break past a healthy defensive Zapdos while Gunk Shot can. People need to stop using the stupid thing -- it's not worth it on a frail Pokémon that either wants to clean lategame or punch holes.
Dire Claw is just a bad meme like Quick Claw.
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exactly- sneasler MIGHT deserve a suspect but dire claw definitely would not be the reason
thanks for your input, dr. quick claw
Honestly a lot of the points and concerns you raised about Rain in this post are pretty accurate in my experience.I feel like rain teams have been optimized to a certain archetype and there's not much room left for innovations until the arrival of Crawdaunt or maybe Scald tutor. Pelipper - an electric type - two water abusers - two mons that will do whatever you want.
What I feel is maybe the best core, from my experience and from other people teams has to be Basculegion, Zapdos and Greninja.
sinergizes with Greninja because it is physical, Wave crash recoil is hardly a problem since its main purpose is to take hp off enemy water resist and force random tera water, also Aqua jet allows you to at least try to outplay Kingambit, something its female counterpart could only do by running substitute.
is the best thing we have left from last generation and usually the electric type you want on your rain, as you always want one to beat water types and abuse things like tera water garganacl or galarian slowking while keeping momentum with volt switch.
with battle bond is hands down the most powerful late game mon you want to click a water move on. After the Basculegion suicide, it becomes easy to get a kill and proc its ability, then you just kill everything. And of course, it helps vs Kingambit with its typing and priority move.
There are for sure interesting alternatives such as using Thundurus-T or Volt absorb Pawmot as your electric type to help your Zapdos matchup, and good abusers like the almighty Golduck that can run any kind of black magic with access to NP/Encore/Disable/Hypnosis, good offensive coverage and Swift swim. But let us get back to our aforementioned core.
Adding brother Pelipper, we have only two spaces left for pokemons, and there are a few problems we have to deal with :
absolutely destroy us if they can set up, especially under screens.
are special attackers we can't allow to gain momentum.
win condition is still a threat.
And lastly, we have no hazards control whatsoever. Many holes to fill for only two pokemons still allowed. This is where the fun begins and everyone has its own take. I've seen people run Iron treads and Eject pack Amoonguss with bulky tera fairy Zapdos. I've seen people run Ting lu and Kingambit, some going Ting lu/Great tusk in an attempt to keep up with the hazards game. Some just ignore hazards and field one special and one physical tanks, a move that basicaly put your team on a timer even lower than what you would already expect from the offensive rain playstyle.
I am one of those as my two mons are as follow:
specially defensive with Eject button and Spore for momentum.
tera fairy is what I use as a check to the physical threats. It has the luxury of not being as weak to Zapdos as the others.
I felt like I basicaly did a RMT in the wrong forum part. Now, tell me about you. Which mons do you choose to run as your two fillers ? Are there any good unexplored options, what do you think of the 3 mons core I spoke of ? Do you feel as well that Zapdos is a real threat or am i just completely paranoid ? What do you think of rain teams in this generation ?
Anyway, I am going to try out Hydration Rest Whirlpool Alomomola, maybe it is the best way I can ride the wave to victory.
I got to #17 on the ladder using Tauros-Paldea-Aqua on rain a few weeks ago using this team.
I pretty much address all of the threats you listed in the RMT, but here’s a brief version:
Air Balloon Gholdengo reasonably checks Baxcalibur, Enamorus, Dragonite, and sometimes Iron Valiant.
Tauros-Aqua also checks Bax as well as Gambit
I only had room for one swift swimmer and chose Jolly Basculegion to outspeed Booster Valiant and still 2HKO dragonite on the switch without fearing espeed
Scarf Sam can switch into pult and beat it 1v1 while laying down spikes, unless it goes for specs draco which is tricky for the team
I also use defensive Zapdos which helps with some Valiant, Dragonite, Gambit early game, and Roaring Moon.
On paper Roaring Moon seems sort of like a problem for my team, but in practice it hasn’t really been (all the other threats you listed have been tho from my experience)
Zapdos is tricky for my team cuz I have no electric immunity, but Gholdengo and my own Zapdos (which has a slower volt switch) can keep it at bay and I run Tera electric on my bulk up tauros to setup on Zap if needed.
Walking Wake is a monster for my team and probably the worst matchup. I’ve even tera fairy’d Pelipper turn 1 to knock it off/chip it with Hurricane, which sounds silly, except I really have no way of beating Wake otherwise. I suppose I could try teching Outrage onto Basc but idk if it’s worth it.
Kingambit is doing more harm than good for the tier. The only positive merit it has is that it checks ghosts but there are numerous other options for that. In terms of tera abusers Gambit is #1, so its an element in creating an unhealthy metagame. I like using Kingambit but in terms of a balanced metagame it’s too broken.
I like the idea of Kingambit. Nothing wrong with having one mon who is objectively the best cleaner (see: Tauros, gen 1)
In practice, the combination of swords dance + priority + free choice band boost from his ability + unlimited tera options is just too much. You can play to avoid the reverse sweep and then lose anyway because Kingambit had a tera type that you weren't expecting, got a free swords dance, and proceeded to destroy you.
And I would rather see Kingambit get banned than tera.
In practice, the combination of swords dance + priority + free choice band boost from his ability + unlimited tera options is just too much. You can play to avoid the reverse sweep and then lose anyway because Kingambit had a tera type that you weren't expecting, got a free swords dance, and proceeded to destroy you.
And I would rather see Kingambit get banned than tera.
Don’t forget the strong defensive and offensive typing. Also, the base 135 Attack stat, matching Koraidon and besting Sneasler, Great Tusk, and both Urshifus.
Pawmot is actually a reliable check, hitting base Kingambit and Tera Flying Kingambit super effectively, and revival blessing is never unwanted.
Base 135 attack isn't a big deal by itself... his typing isn't a big deal, either... it's really the combination of everything (ability + already high attack + typing that can be changed with tera) that pushes him to unfair territory.
Change any one thing and he's much easier to deal with.
No offense, but care to show where this was said anywhere? The survey results simply say: "Only 33.7% of the whole playerbase wants to ban Quick Claw, but 55.2% of qualified players do. This is a substantial difference and we will continue to monitor the topic." Not because "it doesn't activate enough to be a legitimate issue".
It's absolutely a broken reverse sweeper. You can watch it in all sorts of games doing just that despite the Gambit player being on the back foot. You say "Game plan", but Gambit with supreme overlord, and most importantly tera, is the definition of comeback mechanic and it's just not balanced for the tier.
And can we stop using this "X is holding the tier together" argument? If X goes and Y becomes broken, ban it too. Keeping one thing around because it keeps something else in check just results in broken checking broken metagames which are not fun.
While Tera makes it safer, Kingambit can reverse sweep by itself, even without it. Gambit would still be doing Gambit things with or without Tera. I speak from experience.
it’s ironic that the common assumption is kingambit purely checks the ghosts, when the reality is that beating kingambit all-but-requires the ghost types to lure it out into sub 80%.
one Kingambit has revealed if it’s leftovers or not, and once it has taken 20% or more damage. It’s actually mostly possible to deal with it in the late game. The reason? 80% HP is approximately the range of HP most SE STAB attacks can actually OHKO the Tera type kingambit chooses
additionally..
gholdengo has trick, which is a reliable way to subdue a lot of gambit runaways. Dragapult has will-o-wisp and is more than willing a suicide KO to trade burning the S+ gambit and saving your game from being swept by it.
100% HP gambit is extremely broken, as it’s very easy to build and use a team that lures out its key checks and gets them into manageable HP ranges.
kingambit is in a unique place, because stacking checks to it simply does not work. You actually need to use Pokémon it checks in order to force it out earlier in the game than it wants to come out.
try running 3 fighting types and a dondozo, and then watch yourself get rolled over by a late game healthy gambit regardless.
one Kingambit has revealed if it’s leftovers or not, and once it has taken 20% or more damage. It’s actually mostly possible to deal with it in the late game. The reason? 80% HP is approximately the range of HP most SE STAB attacks can actually OHKO the Tera type kingambit chooses
additionally..
gholdengo has trick, which is a reliable way to subdue a lot of gambit runaways. Dragapult has will-o-wisp and is more than willing a suicide KO to trade burning the S+ gambit and saving your game from being swept by it.
100% HP gambit is extremely broken, as it’s very easy to build and use a team that lures out its key checks and gets them into manageable HP ranges.
kingambit is in a unique place, because stacking checks to it simply does not work. You actually need to use Pokémon it checks in order to force it out earlier in the game than it wants to come out.
try running 3 fighting types and a dondozo, and then watch yourself get rolled over by a late game healthy gambit regardless.
I once lost a game to Gambit due to this exact interaction. Had a full-health Dondozo in the back with no hazards up. Came in at full health and got 2hko'd due to a Kowtow crit on the first turn, and then I didn't get the roll on the Body Press to KO. Not a Tera in sight and it still cooked Dondozo lol.
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 96 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 186-219 (40 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Dondozo Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 300-356 (87.9 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 96 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo on a critical hit: 279-328 (60 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Calcs you see in your nightmares. Gen 9 dark types, man.
It really is wild that, despite how absolutely, patently absurd, Kingambit+5 is, it's only the third silliest one. Pretty easy to go under the radar when your competition is Chien-Pao and goddamn Chi-Yu.
Garganacl really is the boogieman for HO players, huh
interestingly, if gambit went, Garg usage should increase.
therefore covert cloak, substitute and taunt will become more viable.
so there’s less complaining about “running covert cloak for the 15% of games garganacl shows up in”
because it might mean running these techs for the 20% of games you see a garganacl.
[meanwhile] I’m running fighting types for the 45% of games that gambit is in…
Meanwhile, I'm running Cloak Gastro because it slaps every Garg and stops it from dealing with most forms of hax.
Slightly off topic, but still relevant thing;
If Gambit is the suspect, I hope that HAMMERFALL's Last Man Standing is the theme chosen for it. It's so damn fitting for Gambit and what it does lmao.
If Gambit is the suspect, I hope that HAMMERFALL's Last Man Standing is the theme chosen for it. It's so damn fitting for Gambit and what it does lmao.
if it's not "a farewell to kings" i'll be very upsetI have some song suggestions but Finch never answers my calls.
For rain I use:
Pelipper + Basculegion-M + Iron Treads + Samourott-H / Quaquaval
The last 2 slots I play around with. Usually 2 breakers that resist grass or 1 breaker + maximum bulk Zapdos or Amonguss. The archetype is really consistent.
Baculegion is cracked the mon is OP. Iron Treads very good rain mon provides SR, Spin, and with Volt Switch and low speed can pivot into enemy Zapdos. Sam and Quaq are useful options to check the King while still providing offensive pressure.
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