No action supporters have one talking point and it's "please stop talking about this"
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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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No action supporters have one talking point and it's "please stop talking about this"
- Will lead to more lax actions being expected from players concerning moves in the future. Or anything for that matters. If Boots are a problem on a few Mon, which really pushes them over the edge, we ban boots? Same for HP in SM?
- "Tera Preview has little impact in high level play since Tera types are more predictable" : which then only adds up the 50/50 option. Because you know can't 'bait' a Tera out, it's really only a mood game.
- You make it sound like knowing Tera types trends is hard, it's really not if you want to play at a decent level. You have a lot of games of high level to inform yourself.
- I'm glad you're taking a very good approach in the end of your message. While I do prefer giving the edge to experienced players, that is indeed a question to ask more broadly. And an interesting one at that.
In the event that the suspect is Kingambit, I am exceptionally curious to see how people's opinions on Tera shift if it gets banned. So many thoughts and experiences from users both for and against Tera in this thread have used Gambit as an example in some way in their argumentation, so it will be very interesting to see whether or not these perceptions hold up when/if the meta begins to shift.
Also would it fucking kill you guys to edit your posts with replies, or like, reply less? Thread's quality is bad enough as is, really don't want to have to read nearly an entire page of the same 2 people going at it. Like jesus christ.
Also would it fucking kill you guys to edit your posts with replies, or like, reply less? Thread's quality is bad enough as is, really don't want to have to read nearly an entire page of the same 2 people going at it. Like jesus christ.
That's just being realistic. There won't be anything new added into this thread at this point. I didn't say to stop, I said that waiting out on newer data could be beneficial.
Kingambit is indeed very impactful in the vision that all sides have on Tera. I'm interested in this suspect test, as the result is not very obvious, and it will impact quite importantly the Tera matter.
"give a specific example"
*proceeds to make the most vague statement on earth*
what lax actions? What moves? What mons are boots a problem on? If this "creates a precedent" name a move that you believe will be "hastily banned without a proper burden of proof" due to that precedent.
Banning Tera Blast is dumb though.
We've literally just had 6 months of a generation where people moaned incessantly about freeing the dog because Last Respects was so obviously dumb and broken whilst also having a 3 month (IIRC) period in that where Shed Tail was free all because of the (correct) smogon tiering policy in regards to moves having to be proven to be broken on multiple mons (let's be real, Orthworm and Houndstone are shitmons). We have a plethora of mons who AREN'T broken by Tera Blast, just like we have loads of mons not broken by Stored Power. If Smogon is to be consistent with their tiering they cannot ban Tera Blast
Tiering action on Tera Blast would not be a move ban, it would be a Tera Restriction as the move is inseparable from Tera. Other moves are not relevant here as they are not exclusively tied to certain mechanics. Tera Blast by design does not break Pokémon, it introduces unhealthy relationships between Pokémon.
It literally would be a move ban wtf are you on about? The move is entirely separable from Tera, let's say we ban Tera tomorrow but not Tera Blast all that means is that every mon has access to an 80bp normal type move that works of their highest attack stat.
It's different than a move ban because the move, frankly, does not exist outside of Terastalization. There are zero viable users of the move without Tera in the format, save maybe Regieleki, who is a shitpost in pokemon form. Everything that can learn even a single other TM learns it, too! If you wanted to ban every user of Tera Blast, you'd be left with Magikarp and Ditto.
Even if that wasn't the case, every generation has its own decisions to be made. And if Tera can be balanced without Tera Blast, that's a completely reasonable tradeoff to save a mechanic that's done a hell of a lot to make singles more interesting.
In terms of policy, it's still a move ban.
this policy was created before Terastalization was. It's not going to cover every base with every new mechanic, that's why the Tera Discussion thread was in Policy Review first
Great idea, let's adapt the policy every special case. That way, having a policy is useless.
Not really. Tera Blast is worth duscussing about. Most pokémon banned due to terastalization is due to Tera Blast abuse (Volcarona, Espathra and Regieleki), which is more than enough to consider the move a problem, specially if you add the fact other problematic mons like kingambit are using Tera Blast on ocassion. Maybe not ban worthy but it's worth discussing about why it would not be that considering there's proof for both sides.
While it might be on practice just a move ban:
- Moves have been banned before in case it's considered unfair and cumbersome to just restrict users.
- The move is completely dependant on the mechanic of terastalization and is a part of its at times arguably "opressive nature."
- This move ban would not affect LC, the only place where you would find a Terablast used as STAB due to H-Zorua having such awful moveset.
Im glad i already gave other example for why tera makes other pokemon the same way, actually volc was banned due to that reason because with tera you can mix and match your checks as much as you want to and the other person can try and win this game of russian roulette or lose the game sometimes on the spot
While I agree, I'm on the part which considered Gambit to be an even bigger issue than Valiant by far. I get the point tho.
I receive: Tera Blast
You receive: most Pokémon losing the ability to handpick their own counterplay
"no, no, guys, you don't get it, banning this move isn't a move ban!"
this is the actual argument you're going with?
no the fuck they haven't. before this generation, the only moves that were banned were evasion moves, ohko moves, and baton pass, all of which are inherently uncompetitive on anything (yes, anything—any pokemon with baton pass can be part of a baton pass chain). last respects and shed tail got the boot for the same reason. salt cure and rage fist still exist because there are users of them that aren't broken. fishious rend, double iron bash, and wicked blow didn't get banned last gen for the same reason. much as i disagree on some level with this aspect of tiering policy, you can't pick and choose what elements of broken mons make them broken and then ban those elements. the fact that people are not grasping this is troubling.
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Swagger was banned in gen 6 via Swagger Clause, despite not being broken on every mon that had it, but being problematic on the few mons that could abuse it too well (like Tera Blast.) Please do more than the bare minimum research if you're going to die on a hill about a ban not being in line with tiering precedent, this goes to all people posting here not just you.
don't insult me by claiming i don't do research, i just forgot swagger because it hasn't been relevant since the nerf. the reason swagger was banned was because it was uncompetitive rng-fishing nonsense on any mon running it, not because it was broken on certain mons.
There’s the gen 6 PU Chatter ban, where Chatter was the only problematic element of the otherwise not broken Chatot so Chatter got the hammer. However, I don’t consider this precedent for their claim, at least here, because:
1) Chatter is a signature move, as opposed to Tera Blast which is the anthithesis of a signature move
2) Gen 6 PU, similar to the ZU of today, was less official than standard tiers. It was technically an OM, despite having its own room.
3) Chatter’s ban was less of a question of brokens and more it being uncompetitive. Chatter’s 100% confuse rate actively removed agency from the opponent, where as Tera blast at worst indirectly removes agency from the opponent by flipping conventional gamestates. It’s easy to say Chatter is uncompetitive and needs to go, it’s less cut and dry to say the same about Tera blast.
the more you know though
Swagger has actually been found to be problematic in multiple places in gens prior to VI. We have a PR thread about its impact on Gen II NU, for instance. The Swagplayers of Gen VI were just the best and most viable abusers at the time.
also, tiering policy was different back then. that's how we got wack shit like baton pass clause and why endless battle clause happened instead of just a ban on leppa berry
Policy is a framework -- it's something designed to give future tiers guidance on where to start, and a built-up list of what's worked best in the past. Outside of certain things which have a decree from above (no bans / restrictions based on unreleased content, etc), it's also completely mutable. You just have to prove a need. And in Tera's case, this entire saga is proving the need to at least try something new.
In other words? Someone has to be first. Why not us?
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