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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.

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As much as I'd like to continue this Walrein discussion, it doesn't belong in this thread. PM me back if you wish to continue the discussion in private, we don't need to derail this subject any more as of now. (Sorry for bringing it up).

Regardless, here is my key point again: Weather + 1 turn of free set-up is a massive advantage to simply assume for free. Its hard enough to bring in counters (who already assume 1 turn of free set-up).

EDIT:

xcfrisco said:
Two pokemon set up SS, only one sets up Hail.

Abomosnow was barely OU last I checked (Not even, 53 on Shoddy's usage list for January isn't OU by Smogon standards.)

Tyranitar is 5 and Hippowdon is 24.

SS>>>>>>>>>>>>Hail by a shitload.

Garchomp is getting Sand Veil for free in a ton of matches.
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By my calculations... (i've done this wrong before, so it wouldn't surprise me...), Tyranitar is used an amazing 2.6% of the time and Hippowdon is used 1.2% of the time in Pokemon Battles. I calculated the unweighted stats to total 1182260.

Even if Sandstorm is that much more popular, the combined useage of both pokemon is small indeed. Most battles, Garchomp won't be getting that sandstorm you are assuming. Even if we multiply their usage by 6x and add them up together (if I understand how Shoddybattle gets their statistics correctly... ), Garchomp is getting his sand in less than 20% of battles unless he was explicitly set-up. Even then, I've seen teams with both Hippowdon and T-Tar on them at the same time, meaning that Hippo and T-Tar aren't mutually exclusive.

Hmm... Colin should just turn this into a "probability of being in a battle", instead of a raw count of pokemon... and it should include all team members IMO.
 
^I'd actually really really like it if there was a way one could measure how often Garchomp is playing in Sandstorm.

I'd say anything less than 50% makes my argument largely rubbish, cause that would mean my point #3 would only account for less than half of all Garchomp altercations.

If it were more than 50%, I'd still think I had a solid argument.

I don't know how easy/practical this measurement would be, however. I think Colin is a busy man.
 
Not necessarily. My argument is simply that Garchomp doesn't get it for free, partially nullifying your point #3. IMO, if sandstorm isn't in 50% of battles, then that means you have to set-up Garchomp more often than not with your own Sandstorm starter. Meaning it really is 2 pokemon working as a team most of the time, and not simply Garchomp alone.

The only case where this doesn't happen is when the opponent is playing a sandstorm team and you just so happen to have a Garchomp on you.

All in all, the point is still moot because 80% hit rate is an 80% hit rate. The vast majority of the time, Garchomp dies to the Ice-based counter.
 
Dragontamer said:
All in all, the point is still moot because 80% hit rate is an 80% hit rate. The vast majority of the time, Garchomp dies to the Ice-based counter.
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Rofl, I wouldn't have spent this much time making my thread if Garchomp just curled up and died to any Ice move without having anything to say about it. A lot of conditions have to be met for Garchomp to die to the Ice-based user.

I'll start saying practically free I guess for Sand Veil. I thought it was implied that either Hippo or Tar would be sent out before Garchomp for Sand Veil to work.
 
Just because Tyranitar and Hippowdon are 5 and 24 doesn't mean Sandstorm is active in most battles... Every 2/3 Wifi battles I fight has Garchomp, and 90% of these Garchomps have Sand Storm set up for them.

I know, it isn't Shoddy, but Wifi is a metagame too... Sand Veil abuse seems to be more popular in Wifi because Garchomp and Hippowdon are easy to get, and Tyranitar are in high demand.
 
Ugh, don't get me started about that... it's so annoying. Anyways, I have seen my fair share of SS on Wifi... enough to know that it's up more than half the time.
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
No idea what the hell everyone is bitching about Walreins and Garchomps but I sure as hell have never seen anything actually stalled out of PP in DP.
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I have. My battle against you, coincidentally, was nearly brought to your last Pokemon being PP stalled, but you got CH + Para + FP, so I ended up dying sooner than expected.
 
So naive, considering since it was a 3-0, meaning it wasn't my last, and the fact that you had never had all 3 at the same time, the whole point is moot.

However, neither of these two posts contribute to anything here..
 
Dragontamer, my best guess is that you didnt consider that there are 12 pokemon used in every battle.. That might up the number a lot..

Have a nice day.
 
Dragontamer, my best guess is that you didnt consider that there are 12 pokemon used in every battle.. That might up the number a lot..
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The statistics don't work like that since pokemon who aren't sent out don't count for a usage (as it explains on the page). Pokemon who weren't sent out could have been any pokemon and the battle would have proceeded in exactly the same way, so counting them is a bit dubious. (There are two exceptions here: Assist and Beat Up. Both are negligible.)

dragontamer said:
Even if Sandstorm is that much more popular, the combined useage of both pokemon is small indeed. Most battles, Garchomp won't be getting that sandstorm you are assuming. Even if we multiply their usage by 6x and add them up together (if I understand how Shoddybattle gets their statistics correctly... ), Garchomp is getting his sand in less than 20% of battles unless he was explicitly set-up. Even then, I've seen teams with both Hippowdon and T-Tar on them at the same time, meaning that Hippo and T-Tar aren't mutually exclusive.

Hmm... Colin should just turn this into a "probability of being in a battle", instead of a raw count of pokemon... and it should include all team members IMO.
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Counting pokemon who weren't sent out still does not allow you to find the chance of co-occurrence, which you seem to imply it would. The chance of finding both pokemon A and B in a single battle is given by

P(A [SIZE=-1]∩[/SIZE] B) = P(A) * P(B | A) = P(B) * P(A | B)

Note that P(B) != P(B | A) since A and B are not independent events.

The problem here is that you have no idea what P(B | A) is without more information. No sort of usage statistics are enough to find the chance of co-occurrence; additional statistics are needed. (The reason I give both versions is that if we were to collect the conditional statistics, we would not need to collect both P(A | B) and P(B | A).)

Some sort of co-occurrence statistics might be possible although they would need an interactive system so that you could select an arbitrary set of pokemon to find the co-occurrence of.
 
Actually each individual Garchomp set is counterable, but since it has a variety of things it can do, this gives it a slight edge (and let's not forget Sand Veil)
 
Skarmory can takes dragon type attacks. But after 1 SD, Outrage will hurt. And if Garchomp use Dragon Claw, Fire Fang/Fire Blast = by Skarmory.
Ohters steel types that can take dragon type attacks, will lose to Earthquake or Fire Fang/Blast.

For the Scarfer, Gliscor. But Outrage hurts.
For the Bander, there's no counters.
The same comment to the others set.
 
would slowbro counter garchomp:
max atk garchomp (no SD/CB) using outrage against slowbro: 38.28% - 45.05%
so iT can take 2 hits atleast
slowbo's ice beam does 93.00% - 109.52% damage to garchomp
 
I think this tread already has all the possible arguments for both sides. Now only testings would bring some advance about the question.
 
Jesus, user DarkArticuno... ScarfChomp doesn't suck, and ugh, you nearly ruined this thread with your shit.

Everyone is overhyping Garchomp...
 
Havak said:
Jesus, user DarkArticuno... ScarfChomp doesn't suck, and ugh, you nearly ruined this thread with your shit.

Everyone is overhyping Garchomp...
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I don't think it's being overhyped at all. It's stronger than Heracross, faster than salamence, has better defenses than swampert, and resists stealth rock. this thing should be uber
 
that isn't a real argument, i wish people would stop making statements like that. metagross has more attack than dragonite, more defense than gliscor, better special attack than suicune, a better movepool than togekiss, resists stealk rock AND IS IMMUNE TO TOXIC SPIKES.

seriously stop
 
for the sub/sd version, a skarmory with whirlwind would work excellently as a counter, indeed a skarmory counters most Garchomp sets except for Chainchomp, since the best physical fire move Garchomp sports is Fire Fang, which has pathetic base power.
Brongzong would work too, but lacks the pseudo-hazing that Skarmory provides.
 
zxn666 said:
for the sub/sd version, a skarmory with whirlwind would work excellently as a counter, indeed a skarmory counters most Garchomp sets except for Chainchomp, since the best physical fire move Garchomp sports is Fire Fang, which has pathetic base power.
Brongzong would work too, but lacks the pseudo-hazing that Skarmory provides.
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You would succeed in forcing out Garchomp, but Skarmory would take a lot of damage in the process.
 
zxn666 said:
for the sub/sd version, a skarmory with whirlwind would work excellently as a counter, indeed a skarmory counters most Garchomp sets except for Chainchomp, since the best physical fire move Garchomp sports is Fire Fang, which has pathetic base power.
Brongzong would work too, but lacks the pseudo-hazing that Skarmory provides.
Click to expand...

Before this thread starts going in circles again,

-No one pokemon counters Garchomp
-Garchomp has really awesome defenses for a sweeper
-Sand Veil gives Garchomp a free turn 1 out 5 times in SS

I believe Garchomp is broken because of all three of these points (together, not individually)
 
zxn666 said:
for the sub/sd version, a skarmory with whirlwind would work excellently as a counter, indeed a skarmory counters most Garchomp sets except for Chainchomp, since the best physical fire move Garchomp sports is Fire Fang, which has pathetic base power.
Brongzong would work too, but lacks the pseudo-hazing that Skarmory provides.
Click to expand...
If Skarmory comes in on a Swords Dance, he is 2HKOed by Fire Fang iirc.
 
He was listing Skarmory as a counter to anything that's not Chainchomp. He's really only a counter to the Sub/SD set, as even the choice sets carry Fire Blast.
 
I don't want to try to add too much here since this has gone on long enough and doesn't seem to be accomplishing much in its current form, but I just want to point out I think you guys are losing the plot a little with the discussion of how often sandstorm occurs. If Akuma was only used 25% of the time in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, he would not suddenly be unbanned from tournaments. He'd still break the game. The only thing that matters is if, when sandstorm is used, Garchomp becomes broken. Otherwise we'd have to be banning and unbanning him as the usage of sandstorm increases and decreases over time.

Good OP, at any rate. For the most part I agree, and I happen to think the game would be more fun without Garchomp.
 
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