Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[MattC (Banned)]

supreme overlord directly rewards you for losing the game. i know it doesn't fit the definition of "uncompetitive" that we use but i certainly wouldn't call that competitive

"Supreme Overlord rewards you for losing the game"

AREN'T YOU ALREADY LOSING BRO??!

Well, no that's not a valid argument and is instead a shitpost of a reply. But even getting past the fact that well... you're already at a huge deficit, Kingambit has been around for so long that I'm pretty sure it has definitive and clear counterplay. Look at it this way: of we kept something in a tier for a long amount of time that has caused problems (notice how I'm NOT saying overpowered) then eventually, counterplay will rise up. "Oh but terastallization-" no buddy. Tera isn't the issue here. Tera Fairy Kingambit is still a Kingambit -- which will probably lose to Encore Disable shit. For example:

- For the EXTREMELY SHORT TIME Regieleki was OU, people adapted by using Iron Treads who funny enough, also beat the other broken mess in the tier Magearna. Then Eleki ran tera water aaaand the fun was ruined. But Water isn't quadruple super effective against Landorus Therian, so it was a win-win scenario (you're not gonna use both on the same thing, but it's instead teambuilding manipulation).

- At the very start of gen 9 OU, Gholdengo has been -- and still is -- amazing. Great Tusk in part is and was a great form of hazard removal because not only did it have the type advantage in spite of a low Special Defense stat, but much more relevantly, it outspeeds Gholdengo -- meaning no matter what form of speed Control Gholdengo had, Great Tusk will always be faster. The persisting Gholdengo debate has gotten worse and worse overtime, but Great Tusk existing (not to mention Hisuian Samurott who is also faster than Gholdengo) has left Gholdengo at a high but perfectly manageable spot in OU.


Everything can all be pointed to the teambuiler with any "broken" pokemon. That's where you build your sets, after all. This isn't to say Chi-Yu is OU material, no that's far FAR from the truth. But everything has an answer to it, everything beats each other. And at the end of the day you need to ask the most important question in any metagame counter set: This mon may or may not be good normally, but is the trade-off for beating X worth it?

 

[Return to Zero]

Listen I'm all for the "fuck Kingambit" train but please stop calling it uncompetitive. I know this is me being semantic as hell, but "uncompetitive" has a specific connotation for removal of agency during battle (e.g. SwagPlay). There's full agency against Kingambit, it's just a stupidly strong Pokémon.

Let's leave Supreme Overlord aside for a second. I do not consider Kingambit's ability to use the Sucker Punch 50/50 against nearly every possible matchup to be competitive. How many times are whole games decided by someone with Kingambit prepared to reverse sweep happening to get the prediction right or wrong? I personally consider it uncompetitive because Kingambit can, with just the barest minimum of setup, become the single determining factor if a game is won or lost regardless of how either trainer played up until that point. If you disagree with me on that being removing agency, that's fine, but I don't think my definition is provably wrong.

 

[Blaze_101392]

supreme overlord directly rewards you for losing the game. i know it doesn't fit the definition of "uncompetitive" that we use but i certainly wouldn't call that competitive

Supreme Overlord is a catch up mechanic, a fundamental piece for a lot of games. To quote Mark Rosewater on the importance of such mechanics in games in his Ten Things Every Game Needs article.

Spoiler

#4) A CATCH-UP FEATURE

There needs to be a way for players that have fallen behind to catch up. A game becomes frustrating if a player feels like he or she has no chance to win.

Another way to think of this requirement is the idea of investment. In order for a game to function at its best, all its players have to care. If they don't then the core of the play group's attention will shift from the game. How do you keep focus on the game? By keeping all the players invested in it.

The biggest reason players disconnect from a game is because they no longer have any investment. The number-one cause of this is a belief that you can't win. The point of the game is to complete the goal from #1. Once you are no longer able to do that (or, more importantly, once you no longer believe you can do that) the game stops having any pull over the player.

If you're just out of a game after falling behind a little, that is fundamentally a bad game. The issue with Supreme Overlord, and Last Respects, is they are over tuned. Half the pay off from Supreme Overlord or have Last Respects be 20 power with +20 per faint and they're perfectly fine. Rage Fist is the same.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Supreme Overlord is a catch up mechanic, a fundamental piece for a lot of games. To quote Mark Rosewater on the importance of such mechanics in games in his Ten Things Every Game Needs article.

Spoiler

#4) A CATCH-UP FEATURE

There needs to be a way for players that have fallen behind to catch up. A game becomes frustrating if a player feels like he or she has no chance to win.

Another way to think of this requirement is the idea of investment. In order for a game to function at its best, all its players have to care. If they don't then the core of the play group's attention will shift from the game. How do you keep focus on the game? By keeping all the players invested in it.

The biggest reason players disconnect from a game is because they no longer have any investment. The number-one cause of this is a belief that you can't win. The point of the game is to complete the goal from #1. Once you are no longer able to do that (or, more importantly, once you no longer believe you can do that) the game stops having any pull over the player.

If you're just out of a game after falling behind a little, that is fundamentally a bad game. The issue with Supreme Overlord, and Last Respects, is they are over tuned. Half the pay off from Supreme Overlord or have Last Respects be 20 power with +20 per faint and they're perfectly fine. Rage Fist is the same.

yeah, i know what comeback mechanics are, i have a degree in game design. but the extent of comeback mechanics in pokemon should be "x thing happens when you're at low hp". anything that gives you a direct, tangible reward for letting multiple pokemon faint is dumb

 

[Blaze_101392]

yeah, i know what comeback mechanics are, i have a degree in game design. but the extent of comeback mechanics in pokemon should be "x thing happens when you're at low hp". anything that gives you a direct, tangible reward for letting multiple pokemon faint is dumb

I disagree that keying the reward to having Pokemon faint is dumb innately. The issue is when the dominant strategy with it is when it actively encourages you to throw away your Pokemon which is an issue with the balancing of the pay off. Another way this type of mechanic could easily work is to key off the difference in remaining Pokemon, for every extra Pokemon your opponent has you get some benefit and the further behind you become the stronger it gets, but as you come back the buff goes away.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Totally untrue (as always)

why do you insist upon continuing to harass me? i'm not an enemy you want to have. please leave me alone

I disagree that keying the reward to having Pokemon faint is dumb innately. The issue is when the dominant strategy with it is when it actively encourages you to throw away your Pokemon which is an issue with the balancing of the pay off. Another way this type of mechanic could easily work is to key off the difference in remaining Pokemon, for every extra Pokemon your opponent has you get some benefit and the further behind you become the stronger it gets, but as you come back the buff goes away.

hmm, you might be right. i suppose we don't really have any counter-examples to my point right now and that's why i'm thinking the way i am. we'd need to have some sort of fainting-mon comeback mechanic that isn't dumb as shit to make the comparison. hell, even supreme overlord on a less overturned mon could work, it's the combination of the comeback mechanic with gambit's ridiculous bulk and attack that make it so bullshit

 

[Roshino]

supreme overlord directly rewards you for losing the game. i know it doesn't fit the definition of "uncompetitive" that we use but i certainly wouldn't call that competitive

I'm Kingambit hater #1, but I don't think comeback mechanics are terrible per se - they are often used in competitive games to both create interesting/gimmicky strategies and big moments (reversal/focus sash/blaze/overgrow/torrent come to mind immediately) and also to avoid games spiraling out of control after a single misplay (League of Legends' bounty system for instance)

The issue with Kingambit's Supreme Overlord is that the risk/reward is skewed in such a manner that there is no opportunity cost and the reward is a gigantic power multiplier in a very strong pokemon. The opportunity cost is the regular flow of the game (which includes making mistakes, but sacking as well for instance), and the reward is so incredibly high it is not "you get an opportunity to recover some momentum if you play well" but instead it is "no matter how badly you played before, you can still win through 50-50s, and if you're even you most likely just win the game".
Note that since it still activates when you're 5-5 (even), it can't even be entirely considered a comeback mechanic - you just get a massive advantage late game.
And if that wasn't enough, even before its ability kicks in, it is a very solid mon with strong uses (revenge killer, ghost check, the classic stuff Bisharp did in past gens).

Just get me out

 

[Ctann]

People sympathised with Kingambit because, amongst other benefits, it did things such as:

• Use an air balloon to check baxcalibur, roaring moon, Gliscor, dragonite
• Use its typing to check stabs from Chien-Pao, dragapult, gholdengo, kingambit
• Use a Tera type to check runaway Volcarona, sneasler, valiant, dragonite
• Use sucker punch games against Ogerpon-W, ogerpon-h, wake
• 
  Ergo, it helps against contentious or strong pokemon. All these end game pokemon can potentially fold to mr end game itself.

 

[YNM]

Totally untrue (as always)

You are rewarded if after losing all your pokemons, u chipped all the things that does not get an okho by sucker punch.

Sneasler showed what a broken physical sweeper is supposed to be, he was insanely dangerous only with the terrain active in EVERY moment of the match. Same for oger fire, he had a free +1 atk only with tera lol, while with gambit for a +1 u are supposed to lose 5 pokemons

Obviously, because after 20-30 turns of an average game you expect your mons to be at full health. Tusk, which is probably the best check to Gambit in the entire game, gets eventually worn out by costantly switching-in due to being the best Spinner in the meta and in general being one of the premier answers to the many Physical Attackers in the tier. All of the other mons, on the other hand, take 60% minimum from Sucker Punch after the 5 faints, with the exception of Gren and Samurott-H, which resist Sucker Punch and take 40 to 50% instead on average, Valiant (which is a quad resist to Dark), A-Nine (which ain't surviving the game anyways) and Zamazenta. The rest of the mons that I didn't mention and dont get literally 2HKOd by SP (or straight up OHKOd) are instead slower than Gambit in the first place.
And here comes the actual problem with Gambit, alongside priority games, which is that it just doesn't fucking die. As most of the players here may have found out by now, a mon with 100/120/85 bulk and a base typing that resists 11 types and it's only weak to 3, does NOT die easily, especially with Leftovers recovery. Factor in Tera as well, with the most popular being Flying and Fairy which conveniently hit for supereffective damage all of the mons mentioned above, and now you have an almost guaranteed chance to set up at least one SD in front of your supposed check, if not straight up KO them back directly with Tera Blast. If you run the calcs, no neutral move can KO max HP Gambit, with some notable examples being Tera Fairy Specs Moonblast from Valiant doing 83 to 98%, Choice Banded Headlong Rush from Max Atk Tusk doing 62 to 73.5% to Tera Fairy Gambit, and Tera Water Life Orb Hydro Pump from Gren doing 75 to 89%. Now you may think, "okay, but what does this have to do with anything? You're purposely taking for granted the fact that Gambit we'll stay at full health by the end of the game" which is wrong; what I'm doing is following your same premise and logic that you should save your Gambit's check at full health for the end of the game. This means that if your opponent does the exact same thing with their Gambit you'll end up in a fair and square 1v1 with both mons at 100% of their HP; in this match-up, following everything I've said above, you will end up with these scenarios:

1. Your check will go for the most powerful Supereffective/Neutral move against Gambit, Gambit Teras into a Fairy or Flying type and either OHKOs your check with Tera Blast/a Supereffective move or 2HKOs it with a neutral Iron Head/Kowtow Cleave;
2. Your check will go for a set up move, Kingambit isn't gonna Sucker Punch a mon at full health so it still ends up going for the Tera into Tera Blast/a Supereffective move and either OHKOs (if your check used SD, DD, Nasty Plot or Calm Mind), or it easily eats your boosted move (run the calc, it survives Max Atk Garchomp +2 EQ, so everything else is a pretty easy guess) and hits back again to 2HKO your mon (if it did Bulk Up, aka Tusk);
3. Your check will go for a set up move, and so will Gambit with SD, and now you don't kill with any of your moves, while Gambit either does at +2 or goes for the 1-2 with an attack followed by Sucker Punch, and once again it either kills you or leaves you in a nasty guessing game;
4. You overestimated the bulk of your check, Gambit easily eats any of your moves, goes for the SD and OHKOs with Sucker Punch;

So not only do you have to account for Sucker Punch games, its coverage and whether or not your moves even kill Gambit, but you are also left in an insufferable limbo with the kind of Tera the Kingambit runs and whether or not it runs Tera Blast as well. All of THESE with your supposed check at full health.
Now try and tell me "yeah but I'm obviously gonna chip the Gambit first", do you think your opponent is a fucking idiot and won't end up chipping your own team as well? Isn't your whole point "do not get chipped lmao"? Ain't your opponent gonna apply the same principle? This whole long-ass post is to point out how fucking dumb of a reasoning that is, and that you obviously need to apply a considerable amount of effort more than your opponent running Gambit. And if you try to say "just run 2 checks" you're just proving my point by presenting the need to run multiple mons just to stop a single threat, which might as well be one of the key elements that define "brokenness".

It's time to adapt and stop crying, oger and sneasler got quickbanned gambit wasn't banned after a suspect and 5 months of tears

Everybody adapted to Gambit, that's the fucking point, it's a meta-warping mon that has survived in the shadows of more broken mons back in their lead-metas. Also, post Elo (jk I'm top 10 on the ladder regardless).

 

[Rekka's Backend]

The issue with Gambit as it stands is that you will always lose pokemon. You're going to lose pokemon in a match against another player unless they're supremely unlucky, they misplay, or your comp counters theirs entirely. This is a certainty, and expected outcome for matches.

Therein lies the issue however. Gambit teams will not be sweating the loss of pokemon (especially if they are sacked or otherwise expected to die) as they know they can 'make up' the difference via Gambit itself existing. Sure, counter play exists. All things can be 'countered', but when said counter has to have multiple forms and those forms *cannot* die prior it proves to be an issue. And that's before select threats such as Sucker, tera, etc.

The Pokemon in the current landscape is beyond what should be expected, there's comeback mechanics and then there's "free choice band bulkymons that get to tera out of their perceived match ups for free" unless you happen to make them burn tera previously. Sure, Encore, disable, all exist. I know this as a Moushold enjoyer, but Moushold isn't guaranteed to live the entire game. Nor is Tusk, which is worn down over the course of a game.

Gambit itself is overturned due to its ability, and otherwise I'd have no 'issue' within insofar that it'd be easier to counter without playing 50/50's or having it ohk threats it otherwise wouldn't for free. It gets a choice band for free, and has the benefit of getting to keep any item it wants. Leftovers, life orb, hell even a lum berry if you wanna really get a swords dance turn in. Let's not pretend that having to spend every single team comp with more than one dedicated Gambit answer is fun or enjoyable here, and I'm saying that as a Encore enjoyer (which gets ruined by his partner in crime anyways...)

 

[Blaze_101392]

hmm, you might be right. i suppose we don't really have any counter-examples to my point right now and that's why i'm thinking the way i am. we'd need to have some sort of fainting-mon comeback mechanic that isn't dumb as shit to make the comparison. hell, even supreme overlord on a less overturned mon could work, it's the combination of the comeback mechanic with gambit's ridiculous bulk and attack that make it so bullshit

Exactly, nothing exists in a vacuum. Bisharp was always a solid Pokemon so even if it just kept Defiant on evolution it would have been a solid Pokemon. Maybe not OU anymore because *gestures at Gen 9*, but certainly UU. The fact what would have been an already good Pokemon regardless of ability was given one of the strongest abilities in the game in a generation where you can just remove its biggest weakness is the root problem.

 

[Magcargo]

People sympathised with Kingambit because, amongst other benefits, it did things such as:

• Use an air balloon to check baxcalibur, roaring moon, Gliscor, dragonite
• Use its typing to check stabs from Chien-Pao, dragapult, gholdengo, kingambit
• Use a Tera type to check runaway Volcarona, sneasler, valiant, dragonite
• Use sucker punch games against Ogerpon-W, ogerpon-h, wake
• 
  Ergo, it helps against contentious or strong pokemon

Its still a good defensive Tera user, but the utility it provides seems to be waning since most of the tier is teching some BS for Gambit to prevent it from setting up or sweeping. I've been running Low Kick Meow lately, which lures and KOes midladder gambits for free. Other general tech like Wisp Pult, Focus Blast Dengo, Encore Ogerpon-W are also things I've been seeing get high usage, so much so that players are running stuff like Mental Herb Tera Fire Kingambit to deal with it. Its not like a lot of this tech is used only for gambit either. Low Kick is useful for Heatran on Meow / Weavile, Encore is useful in general on Ogerpon, Wisp cripples multiple Pult answers and a fast wisp in general is good, etc.

I'm not really sure if these adaptations are indicative of Gambit being broken or just suffering a similar fate that Ghold did in the pre-Home metagame, where its suffering from its own success. In general, I am seeing far fewer cheese Gambit sweeps now than I did in the past, which might be indictive of something.

 

[sims796]

I used to find the "post elo" to be very insulting, but I understand well. On the lower ranks, Kinganbit is very manageable. Too manageable. It skews perceptions because people aren't using it right.

 

[TurquoiseLink]

1. Kingambit doesn't reward bad play. His strength is the same whether you skillfully lost 5 pokemon achieving their full potential or if you clicked memento 5 times. He just rewards being held back until the end.

2. Sucker punch is rarely a 50/50. Its an 8/9 favouring the Kingambit.
Kingambit has 8 sucker punch pp. Sucker Punch > attack move. Kingambit chooses which of the 9 turns (0-8) he clicks kowtow instead. If the opponent correctly guesses this number to stop clicking setup they win, any other number and sucker kills them. Hence 1/9. This formula isn't quite precise because it depends how many pokemon Kingambit needs to sucker punch and stuff like leftovers healing out of 0hko but it isn't 50/50.

3. If you wasted your tera on garbage earlier in the match and kingambit swept you with tera it means you got outplayed.

4. If you're using your Kingambit to check ghosts you're probably misplaying. He's good at it but he's even better as a full hp tera sweeper and he can't do both.

5. Kingambit is still broken and sucker punch is still miserable despite all the above.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Exactly, nothing exists in a vacuum.

except for delibird because it sucks HEYOOOOOO

2. Sucker punch is rarely a 50/50. Its an 8/9 favouring the Kingambit.
Kingambit has 8 sucker punch pp. Sucker Punch > attack move. Kingambit chooses which of the 9 turns (0-8) he clicks kowtow instead. If the opponent correctly guesses this number to stop clicking setup they win, any other number and sucker kills them. Hence 1/9. This formula isn't quite precise because it depends how many pokemon Kingambit needs to sucker punch and stuff like leftovers healing out of 0hko but it isn't 50/50.

that's a good point, but each individual turn is a binary guessing game of "will they click sucker or will they click any other move", which is what people mean when they use the term "50/50". it doesn't mean "i have a 50% chance to win against sucker punch"

 

[sims796]

except for delibird because it sucks HEYOOOOOO

that's a good point, but each individual turn is a binary guessing game of "will they click sucker or will they click any other move", which is what people mean when they use the term "50/50". it doesn't mean "i have a 50% chance to win against sucker punch"

Yeah, trust me it's a lot less than a 50% chance of victory over Sucker Punch shenanigans.

 

[heileone]

On the lower ranks, Kinganbit is very manageable. Too manageable. It skews perceptions because people aren't using it right.

This is a really bad argument because players who are worse at using gambit will be facing players who are worse at dealing with it, which sort of balances out. Unless you think that kingambit is a high skill expression mon that scales exponentially with the skill of the user faster than the skill that factors into counterplay, in which case, lol, but also there is genuine merit then in keeping a mon that rewards skillful, thoughtful play as opposed to brainless broken stuff. Imo, kingambit is both brainless and broken.

 

[sims796]

This is a really bad argument because players who are worse at using gambit will be facing players who are worse at dealing with it, which sort of balances out. Unless you think that kingambit is a high skill expression mon that scales exponentially with the skill of the user faster than the skill that factors into counterplay, in which case, lol, but also there is genuine merit then in keeping a mon that rewards skillful, thoughtful play as opposed to brainless broken stuff. Imo, kingambit is both brainless and broken.

It...wasn't an argument. It was an observation. And a true one at that.

 

[heileone]

It...wasn't an argument. It was an observation. And a true one at that.

Nice oneliner didnt even respond to anything I said in my post. Basically your "observation" is completely fraudulent. Anyone regardless of skill can get a tera 50/50 and then click sucker 6 times. A mon that would support your observation would be one that becomes overbearing with a good understanding of the game like if they can position it well its broken kingambit is send it in last and win.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

ok, can we stop the infighting? we're supposed to be on the same team here. it doesn't matter whether supreme overlord is competitive or where on the ladder you face gambit or what 50/50s are called. let's agree that we fucking hate gambit, it's broken, and it needs to go. can we agree on that at least?

 

[skippergamez]

give Kingambit Knock Off, duh (for Pawniard’s sake, of course)

With regards to Kingambit, I think it falls into the “the worse players wins” because the argument of “skillfully losing your Pokémon” doesn’t account for the other player. Meaning if you skillfully kept your Pokémon alive and you reasonably get swept by Kingambit, then the worse player wins, in theory.

 

[sims796]

Nice oneliner didnt even respond to anything I said in my post. Basically your "observation" is completely fraudulent. Anyone regardless of skill can get a tera 50/50 and then click sucker 6 times. A mon that would support your observation would be one that becomes overbearing with a good understanding of the game like if they can position it well its broken kingambit is send it in last and win.

Jesus dude, chill. There was nothing to respond too, because I was never making an argument.

Like, fraudulent? Calm that noise. In the early elo, people suck. They suck at using King, it's not that hard to deal with. Team structures as a whole takes a hit at that level. It's early level, after all!

Because of that, people at an early elo, people who still has a say, will feel that Kingambit isn't an issue, even though it is. I molly whop Kings on the regular. Because at my level, folks aren't using it right. When I leave that level, it's a whole 'nother story.

Tl;dr: Yes, it is braindead. Wasn't saying otherwise. Easier to manage at early elo, so early elo players thinks it fine. Even though it isn't. And so, Kingambit survives despite being brain dead. Easier to digest?

 

[BolTingBlazie]

OU if Gholdengo stays legal

Spoiler

OU if Gholdengo gets banned

Spoiler

Kind of a no win situation here. Really think Gholdengo needs to get banned, but also is going to make the format way worse short term. Long term it's incredibly unhealthy, ruins format diversity, and creates a bad interaction with hazards. Short term it's also checking a bunch of stuff that are borderline too strong. Banning it is gonna unleash the gates of hell, but it'll be worth it long term.

Also I'd bet money that even if tera type 19 let you tera 3 mons and hit everything super effectively, tera would still not be banned, we'd just complex ban tera type 19 the same way MRay was banned from mega evolving using dragon's ascent. Tera is way too popular of a mechanic to ban wholesale, and I think if a ban was going to come down, it needed to come down early on in the generation. It's too little too late now.

Well something can be popular and banworthy all at once. You would be surprised to see more players regretting keeping tera around, and I'm pretty sure if we were to survey people on tera the opinion would be a lot more ban leading than last time since we were a lot earlier into the gen because i'm pretty sure most of us have figured out by now its better off going at this point even if we wanna keep it

Also yeah gambit is stupid but if we take away tera it actually does have counters even if its dynamics are questionable. Its not all that different to Volcarona in that aspect when you think about it, both are pokemon that are mostly broken due to tera, and would probably be fine otherwise even if they would still be obnoxious otherwise

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Short term it's also checking a bunch of stuff that are borderline too strong. Banning it is gonna unleash the gates of hell, but it'll be worth it long term.

and that's why we should do it now, when there is no short term, and keep it banned for dlc2. if a gholdengo ban really does "unleash the gates of hell" (doubtful), we can clean it up at the same time as the dlc2 fallout since there will be a flurry of tiering action anyway. but if we don't ban ghold now, dlc2 will form as a ghold-centralized and hazard-centralized meta just like the last two did because we'll be too busy cleaning up the fallout to deal with ghold again, so by the time we're finished dealing with new shit and ready to tackle ghold, there will be enough """""counterplay""""" that it'll dodge the bullet for the rest of the fucking gen. we stand at a crossroads. this is our one opportunity to eventually have a gen 9 ou that is actually balanced. we really ought to take it

 

[RS25802580]

I think Gambit is too constraining on the builder and OU would be better off without it. People have gotten desensitized to Gambit because teams are heavily prepared for it nowadays, but that requires stacking multiples of Tusk/Dozo, fast encore, and/or fast wisp to not fold to it in the endgame. There is no singular Gambit check because it can force its way through any particular check depending on the tech it runs. Tera Dark or sufficient hazards support beats Dozo, Tera Flying/Fairy beats Tusk, Tera Fire/Lum Berry beats Wisp, and Mental Herb can be combined with any of the Teras above to beat Encore. This necessitates stacking multiple checks on every team, which people have gotten used to doing, but in principle just doesn’t feel reasonable and means that there’s not much breathing room in the builder.