the thing is, duraludon was designed as an ace and a strong pokémon, sure, but it was also designed to be able to gigantamax in the role of the ace, and therefore was given the stat spread and one-stage line it was. were the gimmick not such a worry, duraludon and what is now archaludon could have been introduced together, and duraludon with a much lower BST since it could evolve into its true ace form anyway. i do agree it's an awkward situation gamefreak created but i think the generational gimmick curtailing design carries the blame here
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- Thread starter antemortem
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L + Ratio + Skill issue + Duraludon is cute and cool and deserves everything + designs are more important than competitive and will always be
also we already have stuff like flutter mane in the games, the powercreep level you complain about has been broken when the game released and its the new power level for pokemon
also i think we as a collective fret too much about base stat totals and how they relate to evolution for a game that introduced an evolution that adds exactly 0 BST to a pokémon as early as gen 2
Worldbuilding and flavor has always trumped battle capabilities and improvement when it comes to any of these new additions to old Pokemon. New evolutions, Megas, regional forms, Gigantamax forms, and whatnot. That's always the throughline.
They always prioritize flavor and building an RPG style world. It's never "this Pokemon needs a buff" specifically. It's always "hey, we're doing this particular design concept right now, and for this Pokemon we have some ideas of how we can do something with it, let's do it!"
Duraludon in particular has a general common theme between both its G-Max form and Archaludon of being a lightweight metal monster that turns into some form of architecture. Giganatamax Duraludon is a skyscraper, while Archaludon is a bridge. G-Max was one of the ideas they did last gen and Duraludon was designed around that, but this gen we had traditional new evolutions again and they probably thought "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we had Duraludon evolve into a bridge?" and created Archaludon as a result.
In general they are always trying to create some sort of variety and worldbuilding when it comes to these: both a variety of design concepts and their choices in which Pokemon get what.
They always prioritize flavor and building an RPG style world. It's never "this Pokemon needs a buff" specifically. It's always "hey, we're doing this particular design concept right now, and for this Pokemon we have some ideas of how we can do something with it, let's do it!"
Duraludon in particular has a general common theme between both its G-Max form and Archaludon of being a lightweight metal monster that turns into some form of architecture. Giganatamax Duraludon is a skyscraper, while Archaludon is a bridge. G-Max was one of the ideas they did last gen and Duraludon was designed around that, but this gen we had traditional new evolutions again and they probably thought "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we had Duraludon evolve into a bridge?" and created Archaludon as a result.
In general they are always trying to create some sort of variety and worldbuilding when it comes to these: both a variety of design concepts and their choices in which Pokemon get what.
Here's one: Indigo Disk basically kills the idea that a "special" version of a Gen's gimmick shouldn't mean anything for barring the line from new stuff or even that branch.
There's already discourse about things like Duraludon getting an evolution to "replace" its Gigantamax, but on the flipside there's the Applin line. Appltun and Flapple are still the cap on their part of the line, but Dipplin was created as anothr counterpart followed by Hydrapple just making that branch the best one now. It's almost like seeing the two ways these updates can be handled post-gimmick Generation: Duraludon is handled fine by making a pretty function evolution and simply accepting the break in "cap" from a super form, while Dipplin goes around it in such a way that it essentially replaces the two forms that are topped by a no-longer-available form such that Hydrapple is worse if Gigantamax is allowed but better when it's not.
I much prefer the Archaludon approach to things, and think Hydrapple would have been a cool "convergent" evolution for the 3 members of the line, perhaps diversified by the pre-evo moves/signatures and could have forms (Harvest, Baked, Wormy forms) with different stats based on which one it evolved from with appropriate stats (I say forms vs separate Evos for Species clause or in case GF wants to recycle the design). I even really like Hydrapple as a mon and line in and of itself, but Appletun and Flapple off to the side bother me.
tl;dr Do more Mega-line Evolutions/Buffs like Archaludon than Dipplin/Hydrapple, design wise.
There's already discourse about things like Duraludon getting an evolution to "replace" its Gigantamax, but on the flipside there's the Applin line. Appltun and Flapple are still the cap on their part of the line, but Dipplin was created as anothr counterpart followed by Hydrapple just making that branch the best one now. It's almost like seeing the two ways these updates can be handled post-gimmick Generation: Duraludon is handled fine by making a pretty function evolution and simply accepting the break in "cap" from a super form, while Dipplin goes around it in such a way that it essentially replaces the two forms that are topped by a no-longer-available form such that Hydrapple is worse if Gigantamax is allowed but better when it's not.
I much prefer the Archaludon approach to things, and think Hydrapple would have been a cool "convergent" evolution for the 3 members of the line, perhaps diversified by the pre-evo moves/signatures and could have forms (Harvest, Baked, Wormy forms) with different stats based on which one it evolved from with appropriate stats (I say forms vs separate Evos for Species clause or in case GF wants to recycle the design). I even really like Hydrapple as a mon and line in and of itself, but Appletun and Flapple off to the side bother me.
tl;dr Do more Mega-line Evolutions/Buffs like Archaludon than Dipplin/Hydrapple, design wise.
oh, i do think hydrapple was a missed opportunity for our first convergent evolution. i get why that's a hard sell even this far into the franchise, but i really think it'd be a cool idea to try at some point.
I feel like if you’re looking for reasons to use Flapple or Appletun over Hydrapple, then you probably just want to use a Flapple or Appletun and should simply do so.
There are far harsher self-imposed restrictions you could enforce on yourself than using a suboptimal choice of Pokémon. I think I’ve only used Garchomp on a Sinnoh game team like once.
Especially if we’re just talking about a single-player campaign, where basically anything is viable. Competitively, I don’t think Flapple or Appletun were taking the world by storm before now, were they? Or like were just a hair shy of greatness and the only thing that could prevent them from making it big would be the addition of a better choice?
There are far harsher self-imposed restrictions you could enforce on yourself than using a suboptimal choice of Pokémon. I think I’ve only used Garchomp on a Sinnoh game team like once.
Especially if we’re just talking about a single-player campaign, where basically anything is viable. Competitively, I don’t think Flapple or Appletun were taking the world by storm before now, were they? Or like were just a hair shy of greatness and the only thing that could prevent them from making it big would be the addition of a better choice?
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Luvdisc is cute. Change my mind.
Luvdisc and Delibird are cute gimmick 'mons that don't really need anything else; if anything just have them be early game stuff.
Delibird shouldn't had been a version exclusive in its debut. Sneasel should had been Gligar's version counterpart instead (and, of course, it should had been an Ice Path encounter before Crystal).
Tauros and Miltank should have had a shared calf preevolution. Specially for Paldea purposes; how the fuck do you have different breeds of a male-only species?
Volbeat and Illumise belonging to different experience groups is inane. While the different experience groups aren't IMO that bad as a general concept, those two (and arguably Zangoose and Seviper) don't really work as stuff that grows at a different rate.
Delibird shouldn't had been a version exclusive in its debut. Sneasel should had been Gligar's version counterpart instead (and, of course, it should had been an Ice Path encounter before Crystal).
Tauros and Miltank should have had a shared calf preevolution. Specially for Paldea purposes; how the fuck do you have different breeds of a male-only species?
Volbeat and Illumise belonging to different experience groups is inane. While the different experience groups aren't IMO that bad as a general concept, those two (and arguably Zangoose and Seviper) don't really work as stuff that grows at a different rate.
You think Duraludon shouldn't have received an evo because of powercreep; I think Duraludon shouldn't have received an evolution because it's ugly as sin and should have never been acknowledged again. We are not the same.
On the topic of Archaludon: I have no doubt that this is a dumb and pointless argument about semantics that will never die for as long as the series runs, but imo it should not count as a pseudo-legendary/ a member of the 600 Club for one simple reason: it's a 2-stage evolution line. I'm willing to accept Duraludon as a middle evolution even if it would still be obscenely strong by pseudo middle evo standards, but the lack of a crappy first evo pretty firmly disqualifies it in my eyes. The training arc inherent to pseudos is entirely absent; all it has to claim the title is a Dragon typing and a base stat total.
If going by the Pseudo-Legendary Moniker I agree, but not sure how you can argue it out of "the 600 Club" when it fits the only criteria in the name.
I'm not super familiar with the JP side of things, but my understanding is that they use the descriptor 600 Club to describe the same 'mons we do as pseudo-legendaries. Hence, Mythicals or a handful of Legendaries like Zygarde and Landorus are not considered part of the 600 Club. If I'm incorrect on this, please correct me!
But speaking of Japanese, I believe that official JP merchandise lends credence to the idea that these 'mons are categorically defined by a weak first-stage; the Pokemon Center merch set for the pseudo-legendaries is called Taiki-Bansei, an idiom which (to my understanding) is most accurately translated as Late Bloomers. The Archaludon line lacks this, and thus I don't think it classifies in this group under any moniker - fandom-based or official.
MY PSIONIC WARRIORS... GET THIS GOOFSTER
Whereas I think it shouldn't have gotten an evo because GF had to create YET ANOTHER evolution-inducing item to apply to it instead of just using a Thunder Stone again.
It's not an Electric type nor does it have anything to magnetism, why would it use the Thunder Stone? Metal Coat maybe, but not Thunder Stone.
According to Bulbapedia and whatever Japanese wiki they're associated with, the Japanese community does actually consider Archaludon part of the 600 club.
I also feel it's worth noting that pseudo-legends have a history of being the ace of or at least used by either the final Elite 4 member or champion of their respective region, with the only exceptions being Kommo-o (final Totem in Sun and Moon) Hydreigon kind of (still ace of final boss Ghetsis even if he's not technically the champion, also used by champion Iris in BW2) and Tyranitar (who got fucked by champion Lance's three Dragonites and didn't make the cut for final Elite 4 Karen's team for some reason).
With Drayton being the strongest of the Blueberry Elite 4 and Archaludon being his ace, it really seems like they're treating it as if it were a pseudo-legend.
I also feel it's worth noting that pseudo-legends have a history of being the ace of or at least used by either the final Elite 4 member or champion of their respective region, with the only exceptions being Kommo-o (final Totem in Sun and Moon) Hydreigon kind of (still ace of final boss Ghetsis even if he's not technically the champion, also used by champion Iris in BW2) and Tyranitar (who got fucked by champion Lance's three Dragonites and didn't make the cut for final Elite 4 Karen's team for some reason).
With Drayton being the strongest of the Blueberry Elite 4 and Archaludon being his ace, it really seems like they're treating it as if it were a pseudo-legend.
"According to Bulbapedia and whatever Japanese wiki they're associated with, the Japanese community does actually consider Archaludon part of the 600 club."
Where do you think I got the link to that Japanese wiki
The rest of the page disagrees, the lists do not include it and it is explicitly stated to not be further down.
They may have referenced that wiki to show that some segment of the Japanese playerbase thinks that, but Bulbapedia itself doesn't agree.Bulbapedia said:
Being a three stage line is literally a specific feature of pseudos. Being single stage is not a required characteristic of Pika-clones, Pikachu itself isn't a single stage line afterall, if anything it makes Pawmi even more cloney.
Also Pseudos are an officially recognized group, Pika-clones are not.
yeah but its funnier if it is a pseudo
on a more serious note because its a subject thats worth more care than Archaludon Semantics: both pikaclones and pseudos are just character design tropes that repeat, theyre both as official and vague as gamefreak wants them to be.
i dont really care much about the groupings and who becomes official or not as a character designer myself because it feels pointless. sometimes you just follow a character trend and sometimes you dont. sometimes you directly reference your own trends and sometimes you just let it be. it is not a big deal if archaludon is a pseudo and its not a big deal if pichu is a pika clone as much as it doesnt matter if they are
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yeah i know
that's why i said "bulapedia says the japanese community views it like this"
the claim is "archaludon is a 600 club member in japan"
and the source is bulbapedia
and bulbapedia's source is presumably that other wiki but there's no footnote so maybe not
also reminder that bulbapedia refused to acknowledge convergent evolutions as a thing, so it saying archaludon is or isn't part of a category does not actually mean all that much
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Yeah, I realized what you meant after I posted.
Though not acknowledging convergent species as a thing makes sense, Pseudos are a group that has existed since the beginning and have official recognition (as Late Bloomers), "convergents" are an entirely fan-made category based on 2 lines from the same generation with no official recognition as being anything special. It's the same reason they don't have a page for "regional rats" or "Pika-clones".