Unpopular opinions

"According to Bulbapedia and whatever Japanese wiki they're associated with, the Japanese community does actually consider Archaludon part of the 600 club."

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Where do you think I got the link to that Japanese wiki
The rest of the page disagrees, the lists do not include it and it is explicitly stated to not be further down.
Bulbapedia said:
Among Pokémon commonly mistaken for pseudo-legendary Pokémon are Slaking, Flygon, Aggron, Volcarona, Haxorus, and Archaludon. For one reason or another, these Pokémon do not fit the criteria to be classified as pseudo-legendary Pokémon.
They may have referenced that wiki to show that some segment of the Japanese playerbase thinks that, but Bulbapedia itself doesn't agree.
 
I think archaludon is a pseudo because if a pika clone can have evos (and two of them even) then a pseudo can be a two stage line. theyre doing whatever they want nowadays with these tropes tbh
Being a three stage line is literally a specific feature of pseudos. Being single stage is not a required characteristic of Pika-clones, Pikachu itself isn't a single stage line afterall, if anything it makes Pawmi even more cloney.

Also Pseudos are an officially recognized group, Pika-clones are not.
 
Being a three stage line is literally a specific feature of pseudos. Being single stage is not a required characteristic of Pika-clones, Pikachu itself isn't a single stage line afterall, if anything it makes Pawmi even more cloney.

Also Pseudos are an officially recognized group, Pika-clones are not.

yeah but its funnier if it is a pseudo

on a more serious note because its a subject thats worth more care than Archaludon Semantics: both pikaclones and pseudos are just character design tropes that repeat, theyre both as official and vague as gamefreak wants them to be.

i dont really care much about the groupings and who becomes official or not as a character designer myself because it feels pointless. sometimes you just follow a character trend and sometimes you dont. sometimes you directly reference your own trends and sometimes you just let it be. it is not a big deal if archaludon is a pseudo and its not a big deal if pichu is a pika clone as much as it doesnt matter if they are
 
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The rest of the page disagrees, the lists do not include it and it is explicitly stated to not be further down.

They may have referenced that wiki to show that some segment of the Japanese playerbase thinks that, but Bulbapedia itself doesn't agree.
yeah i know

that's why i said "bulapedia says the japanese community views it like this"

the claim is "archaludon is a 600 club member in japan"

and the source is bulbapedia

and bulbapedia's source is presumably that other wiki but there's no footnote so maybe not

also reminder that bulbapedia refused to acknowledge convergent evolutions as a thing, so it saying archaludon is or isn't part of a category does not actually mean all that much

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the people in charge of bulbapedia are about as out of touch as the people in charge of smogon, which is to say very
 
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yeah i know

that's why i said "bulapedia says the japanese community views it like this"

the claim is "archaludon is a 600 club member in japan"

and the source is bulbapedia

and bulbapedia's source is presumably that other wiki but there's no footnote so maybe not

also reminder that bulbapedia refused to acknowledge convergent evolutions as a thing, so it saying archaludon is or isn't part of a category does not actually mean all that much

the people in charge of bulbapedia are about as out of touch as the people in charge of smogon, which is to say very
Yeah, I realized what you meant after I posted.

Though not acknowledging convergent species as a thing makes sense, Pseudos are a group that has existed since the beginning and have official recognition (as Late Bloomers), "convergents" are an entirely fan-made category based on 2 lines from the same generation with no official recognition as being anything special. It's the same reason they don't have a page for "regional rats" or "Pika-clones".
 
According to Bulbapedia and whatever Japanese wiki they're associated with, the Japanese community does actually consider Archaludon part of the 600 club.

I also feel it's worth noting that pseudo-legends have a history of being the ace of or at least used by either the final Elite 4 member or champion of their respective region, with the only exceptions being Kommo-o (final Totem in Sun and Moon) Hydreigon kind of (still ace of final boss Ghetsis even if he's not technically the champion, also used by champion Iris in BW2) and Tyranitar (who got fucked by champion Lance's three Dragonites and didn't make the cut for final Elite 4 Karen's team for some reason).

With Drayton being the strongest of the Blueberry Elite 4 and Archaludon being his ace, it really seems like they're treating it as if it were a pseudo-legend.
Lance used Tyranitar in Pokemon Stadium 2, Kommo-o was used by Ryuki as a champion challenge and by Cynthia in Pokemon Masters and the anime. Even before evolving, Duraludon was used by Raihan, who's said to be strong enough to be champion of another region, but chooses to stay in Galar to rival Leon.
 
Reminder that the OFFICIAL approach to pseudos is the "late bloomers" toy line. Which specifically involves the multiple stages and not just the fully evolved 'mon.

Archaludon is as much of one of those as Simisage is a Fire starter.

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No seriously, those, like starters, are designed as a full line. Turning the Shard into a bridge 3 years later is not how those are designed.
 
Luvdisc and Delibird are cute gimmick 'mons that don't really need anything else; if anything just have them be early game stuff.

Tauros and Miltank should have had a shared calf preevolution. Specially for Paldea purposes; how the fuck do you have different breeds of a male-only species?

Luvdisc is obtained kinda early in XY, and Delibird is obtained early in the Alola games, so looks like the devs agree with you there.

As for Tauros, this is the series in which Kangaskhan hatch with their baby already on the pouch, logic is not welcome here. :tymp:
 
I mean, species where all individuals are female AND born pregnant are real; insects get quite weird.

Kangaroo reproduction has weird stuff (triple vagina, conveyor belt of developing joeys), but the Kangaskhan approach is not common in them tho lol
 
I changed my mind, archaludon is a pseudo because i didnt know how serious people were about pokemon tropes and I think its funny to go "nuh uh"

This is, by far, the most compelling argument I've seen in favor of pseudo Archaludon lmao

on a more serious note because its a subject thats worth more care than Archaludon Semantics: both pikaclones and pseudos are just character design tropes that repeat, theyre both as official and vague as gamefreak wants them to be.

i dont really care much about the groupings and who becomes official or not as a character designer myself because it feels pointless. sometimes you just follow a character trend and sometimes you dont. sometimes you directly reference your own trends and sometimes you just let it be. it is not a big deal if archaludon is a pseudo and its not a big deal if pichu is a pika clone as much as it doesnt matter if they are

This is the second-most compelling argument! I think it's a very good point to recognize that archetypes are not set in stone and can evolve over time. Thus, what is integral to an archetype can be rather subjective as a result; personally, I place a lot of emphasis on the three-stage aspect of pseudos, not just because of official labeling but also because of the story it conveys of a weak, unassuming underdog becoming one of the most powerful monsters in the whole game. It's a nice little arc, and in my eyes it's an important part of what makes a pseudo a pseudo - but after almost-30 years, a series has to shake things up, and pseudos are no exception. Reading over what's been talked about in this thread, I had no idea that people considered "being a powerful trainer's ace" as important criteria - and I think that's not only pretty interesting, but also indicative of how people can evaluate the same term so differently.

I recognize that I inflicted the scourge of Archaludon pseudo discourse upon this thread, but at the end of the day I agree that it really isn't that serious. I think it's interesting to talk about, and I wouldn't say my stance has changed really, but I think there's merit in examining what forms an archetype, and how flexible the standards can be.
 
Black and White 1 has one of the most monotonous structures in the entire series, and it has some of the weakest ability to make good teams.

Essentially the structure of the game is: Gym, the counter is in a side route, Team Plasma encounter, repeat. I can even lay it out for you, this is changed only a few times.

N -> Monkeys in side route -> Gym 1 -> Team Plasma steals Pokemon -> Fighting Types in side route -> Gym 2 - > Team Plasma in forest -> Darumaka in bit of route up ahead -> Gym 3 -> N -> Side routes have good mons, though could find them on the way technically -> Gym 4 -> Cold Storage -> Peek up next route to get a Level 24 Deerling with Grass move and Jump Kick for Excadrill -> Gym 5 ->Chargestone has Team Plasma -> Emolga trade next to gym -> Gym 6 -> NO TEAM PLASMA -> Gym 7 -> Dragonspiral Tower (Team Plasma) -> Pawniard (Steel) in grass right before Dragon Gym -> Gym 8

While there are a few slight changes to the structure, BW1 very much works in a very predictable pattern even as a new player in my opinion. And it kind of renders teambuilding to be difficult. Keep in mind, before the first gym your only options are two Normal-Types (only one of which is worth a damn), a Dark-Type that sucks, and your elemental monkey, which also sucks after this gym. Then after that you get a few more options, but overall I find teambuilding in Gen 5 to be pretty dull and slow.

And I think it is telling that B2W2 and beyond very much try to keep a good pool of Pokemon in the region. And frankly, yes, I think keeping the dex to only the new Pokemon wasn't a good idea, it doesn't make teambuilding more creative, it turns it the opposite. While Gen 4 is infamous for having very similar teams, I think it is a game where it frontloads all of the good Pokemon, and the rest you have to very much go out of your way to get.

Meanwhile, the games I see have the most variety are the ones that give a lot of different, non-competing, viable options (as in, not going to make your playthrough more difficult) are the ones with the most variety. It doesn't even need to be like SWSH dropping like 150 Pokemon before the first gym, even a game like RSE has some good stuff. Mightyena really isn't terrible for an early/late game option, you can pick up a Lotad easily, Ralts, Wingull, etc. before the first gym. After that you get Mawile, Geodude, Sableye, etc.

In Gen 5, it follows a problem Gen 1 has. If there are similar typed Pokemon, they are usually version locked so you only actually have one, and so the variety suffers by sheer numbers. Gen 2 also.

You can say that it makes BW1 feel more special, but I'd say that making a game's design only really meaningful on a first playthrough (and that is debatable, again, the game has almost an exact type of team it wants you to craft, and basically leads you to it) in a series that got a lot of popularity (especially in the West) for being a very replayable RPG series, is in my opinion not a good idea. Especially with the workload needed to make it work.

Sun and Moon almost has this problem (early game can be a bit rough for options), but Akala Island is full of tons of variety of Pokemon. And then Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon becomes one of the most fun games to teambuild with in the entire series.

As for the story structure, me-no-like. It feels mostly arbitrary outside of the N fights, and I do not think we need anymore caves full of evil team members in Pokemon. Ever again. On replay, BW1 is also way more linear than people say. I think Alola and Unova BW1 have about the same amount of optional areas.

Like, you never even touch Alola's desert if you just follow the story, IIRC.

God, Gen 7 needs more appreciation.
 
As far as the actual intrinsic group who follow a specific set of rules, talking about the 600 group/pseudo-legendary stuff, they've always followed three rules:
- Three stage
- 600 BST in final form
- Slow EXP group

Game Freak and TPC do acknowledge that particular group outside of the fan terms, even having a dedicated merchandise set to them.

They're practically always self-contained in one generation as a dedicated pattern of Pokemon that they intentionally create.

Archaludon is interesting because it's now a case of something that's similar to the classic pseudos in one way, but I wouldn't say it was the first: it just makes itself similar to the actual group in a different way and is the first to be so in its particular way, this one being that it has 600 BST.

There have been, in fact, several other Pokemon in generations before that have been "mistaken for the group" for many years since they are similar to the actual group in other ways. Chief among them are Flygon, Aggron, and Haxorus. Especially these three in particular, where they are similar in at least other ways, being three-stage Pokemon, two of them being Dragon-type and having late evolution levels, and two being in the Slow EXP group. Haxorus and Aggron in particular have been notoriously similar to the classic "pseudo-legendary" group in that they evolve twice and are in the Slow EXP group and both end up very powerful late-game mons.

Slaking, Volcarona, and Gholdengo also are sorta similar to the pseudos in other ways. Volcarona and Gholdengo are similar to each other but are both two-stage mons in the Slow EXP group with 550 BST that are "special" in different ways and are sandwiched between the classic pseudo-legendary in their roster (Hydreigon and Baxcalibur respectively) and the main sub-legendary group (Swords and Treasures) in the dex order. Slaking is a three-stage Slow EXP mon who ends up with a very high BST.

So in a way, Archaludon isn't really part of the intentional classical group, but it does join the leagues of Haxorus, Aggron, Slaking, Volcarona, etc. in being oddly similar to them, just in a new way, this time being its BST as opposed to the others having lower BST but being three-stage and/or in the Slow group. So Duraludon has become, in its own way, another Axew or Trapinch or Aron in that regard.
 
I'm just surprised that anyone is expecting there to be an adherence to solid structures and rules at this point.

This is a series which routinely breaks its own patterns and rules - which for the most part seem to exist in the heads of the players, not the designers - and tells us stuff that even the very next set of games will outright contradict or overrule. And the amount of broken trends at this point should just make that point more apparent.

Even in cases where there's a uniformity or design rule that's followed, there are usually exceptions. Take baby Pokemon as an example. They are, uniformly, unable to breed and were all initially nonexistent in the wild. The former point has been consistently upheld over time but the latter was contradicted after just one generation. Any other attempt to solidly group them fails - they're not uniformly weaker than other species, and they don't all get moves their evolved forms otherwise can't.

I'm actually surprised that the so-far established pattern for psuedos - initial 300-BST stage, mid 450-BTS stage, final 600-BST stage - lasted for seven whole generations (outside of the fact that it's a gameplay decision which makes them harder to raise). Because outside of that, there's nothing that really links them. They're not all Dragon-types, they're not always offensively inclined, they're not always used by the final boss of each game, there's not even always one of them per generation or a new one per region. There really is no solid pattern beyond their positioning as the strongest non-legendary in each region which, obviously, has to be occupied by something.

So while I'm totally prepared to say Archaludon probably isn't formally considered one of the group (because it is one that's officially acknowledged) I'm also completely prepared for Game Freak to turn round and go "actually it is". Because they say so.
 
i feel like a lot of the drive behind the archaludon as a late bloomer discourse is people wanting to rationalise it having 600 bst (without a drawback ability), when maybe we should just acknowledge that this is only a thing for the fandom. archaludon has 600 bst as a regular mon, and it's fine. clearly their biggest motivation was "tyranitar has 600 bst so its rival must have 600 bst too people need to know we are OBSESSED with kaijus" anyway.
 
Archaludon is not a pseudo legendary. But its also definitely part of the 600 club. ez solve

This definitely feels like it.

Despite the classic "late bloomer" group being intentional and easy to identify the actual fan terms both fandoms have used for years before the "Late Bloomer" term was coined by TPC/Game Freak for the actual classical group are pretty broad in that regard.

The "600 club" term was always less flexible to a point where things like Haxorus, Flygon, and Aggron are easily not part of it, but Archaludon being a 600 BST mon could easily be considered part of it.

"Pseudo-legendary" on the other hand has always been a fairly broad term in a vacuum, which is why many in the western fandom have "considered" Pokemon who do bear similarity to the classic late bloomer group to be them. As I said, Aggron and Haxorus in particular are scarily similar to the late bloomer group despite ending with a lower BST. Aggron was even version exclusive counterparts with Tyranitar in X and Y. Haxorus is a three-stage Dragon that levels up slowly, and two of its previous stages do share similar BSTs to some late bloomer pre-evolutions, Axew's 320 BST is similar to the relatively newly introduced Frigibax, and Fraxure's 410 BST is shared with a number of late bloomer mons' middle forms. Flygon and Haxorus are both considered very similar to the pseudos because they're three-stage Dragons with high evolution levels, and in some ways have been more popular than their generations' actual "late bloomer mon".

I do feel, however, that the actual late bloomer group we've identified for years is an intentional pattern they create on purpose, akin to starters and the major cover legendaries. The ones who follow the trend established by Dragonite do follow a lot of similar trends, but also deviate from each other in several ways, much like the cover legends who follow in Mewtwo's footsteps and the Grass/Fire/Water starters who are all modeled after the formula Venusaur, Charizard, and Blastoise established. Considering the classic "late bloomer" group is often mingled in the dex alongside sub-legendaries and legendaries towards the end of the dex, which those two groups are consistent recurring trends, it is however probably one of three particularly clear and identifiable "archetypes" they do on purpose.

"Late Bloomers" does feel like the most fitting term for the classic group, however. Especially when you consider this:

https://pastebin.com/PKdUMxpW

(Above are the evolution levels of each generation's roster of Pokemon. You can see the commonality of the "late bloomers" in terms of where they fall in their gen's roster in that regard).
 
I do feel, however, that the actual late bloomer group we've identified for years is an intentional pattern they create on purpose, akin to starters and the major cover legendaries. The ones who follow the trend established by Dragonite do follow a lot of similar trends, but also deviate from each other in several ways, much like the cover legends who follow in Mewtwo's footsteps and the Grass/Fire/Water starters who are all modeled after the formula Venusaur, Charizard, and Blastoise established. Considering the classic "late bloomer" group is often mingled in the dex alongside sub-legendaries and legendaries towards the end of the dex, which those two groups are consistent recurring trends, it is however probably one of three particularly clear and identifiable "archetypes" they do on purpose.
Is this a bad time to mention Garchomp just chilling in the middle of the Sinnoh Dex, Goodra the Kalos section, and Hydreigon being before the Larvesta line (which is the last non-Legendary set) in Unova?

It's weird because they basically broke the Pokedex-placement pattern for those 3 gens, resumed it for 7 and 8 (disregarding DLC species which by nature just kind of jump on the end of their region's section), and then 9 got weird with Baxcalibur in between the "lesser" Paradoxes (which are debatable Legendaries in function), followed by Gholdengo (the 1000 Pokemon with a weird encounter and evo method), the minor Legends, "Boss" Paradoxes, and then Mascots.
 
I may be getting the totally wrong impression here, or maybe there’s just bad wiki citation involved, but on the Japanese Pokémon wiki that Bulbapedia’s page about pseudo-Legendaries links to, its page about the “600 club” has a section further down talking about other stat-based groups, and it seems like each of these clubs is just “those Pokémon with these stat totals.” Like there’s a “690 club” but it’s literally just… Eternatus. But for some reason the “600 club” is the only one that excludes things like Mythicals, Legendaries, and Megas.

Again, I’m relying on the web translator here so I could easily be interpreting it all wrong (and please correct me if I am), but the sense I get is that the notion behind these stat clubs isn’t quite describing the same thing as the notion of pseudo-Legendaries, which is more about a particular character design trope.
 
Again, I’m relying on the web translator here so I could easily be interpreting it all wrong (and please correct me if I am), but the sense I get is that the notion behind these stat clubs isn’t quite describing the same thing as the notion of pseudo-Legendaries, which is more about a particular character design trope.

its more of a trivia of pokemon with the same high base stats yes, probably just connected After the 600 club became a common jp fandom term hence why theres no actual rules on it vs what consists a 600 club member
 
My Pokemon hot takes (if you disagree that's fine)
1. Gallade is cooler then Gardevoir.
2. I like Garbodor. (mainly because of the BW anime)
3. Psyduck is lame. (yea kill me)
4. The Galar starters are not bad. (except for Rillaboom, he's stupid)
5. Mega Charizard Y looks too much like Charizard.
6. Braviary is cooler than Staraptor.
7. Quaquaval is the worst starter of all time.
8. I like Unova.
9. Galarian Moltres is the coolest Pokemon in a legendary trio.
10. I don't hate Gholdengo.
 
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