"Pokemon Classic - Kanto" like WoW
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
Don't give them ideas...
Duraludon is literally the last thing that should have gotten an evolution. It is just blatant power creeping.
Megas were FAR more elegant. However, stuff like Mawile and Sableye should had gotten a regular evolution.
Don't make the 'mon with stat total on par with Rhyperior, Swampert or Lapras Little Cup viable. Scyther was enough for that.
In fact, Megas were a very elegant solution, and should have coexisted with regular evolutions. Then again, regular evolutions had already really questionable crap going on back in Gen IV already. And plenty of Megas were either far too optimized for strong stuff, or not enough for weak stuff.
Megas were FAR more elegant. However, stuff like Mawile and Sableye should had gotten a regular evolution.
Don't make the 'mon with stat total on par with Rhyperior, Swampert or Lapras Little Cup viable. Scyther was enough for that.
In fact, Megas were a very elegant solution, and should have coexisted with regular evolutions. Then again, regular evolutions had already really questionable crap going on back in Gen IV already. And plenty of Megas were either far too optimized for strong stuff, or not enough for weak stuff.
i don't mind duraludon having an evolution because of its stat spread per se. i do mind that it clearly only wasn't born a two-stage pokémon at debut because of gigantamax, which is where the "must have a battle gimmick each gen" part really comes to the detriment of pokémon design
But have you seen how poorly optimized Duraludon is when you compare it to Pokémon with similar BST? Between frail 50 Special Defense, situational to effectively useless non-hidden Ability, 85 Speed not enough for a sweeper and too fast to be in optimal Trick Room teams, and it’s signature Ability locked as a Hidden Ability until Ability Patch is introduced in Crown Tundra, it do feel like it relied on it’s Gigantamax way too much to become useful on it’s own. And GF did felt this way, hence giving it an evolution when Duraludon become available via Indigo Disk.
If Little Cup were to return in official Pokémon tournament, chances that the likes of Scyther, Duraludon, and maybe even Dunsparce and Misdreavus will be still disallowed from use to preserve the spirit of Gen 2’s Little Cup.
I do have an issue with how Mega Evolution is distributed, not just given to too many popular Pokémon but at the same time, low BST Pokémon are single stage or second stage where they would benefit more of a regular evolution in hindsight. We know GF can break the unspoken rules by fans, and I know many people who wouldn’t mind seeing regular evos to the likes of Sableye in fangames where Mega Evolution isn’t available. As-is, it’s not too far from reality to imagine Mawile and Sableye to finally get an evolution for games where Mega Evolution isn’t possible, with the caveat that such evolution is unavailable for games where Megas are available for use, allowing for rotation.
Gen IV cross-gen evos were an issue because of the quantity, not just because of the quality of some of them. It forces GF to slow it down from not introducing altogether in Gen 5, only introducing one in Gen VI in favor of Mega Evolution, and once more no true cross-gen evos in favor of introducing regional forms in SM, though the Alolan form of Raichu, Exeggutor and Marowak carries this spirit.
SwSh introduced us an unexpected one with GF experimenting with regional forms by way of a few regional form exclusive evolutions to test water to see if fans wanted to see more true cross-gen evos again. With the generally good reception with most of the regional evolutions, they give another try for true cross-gen evolution concepts in Legends: Arceus and SV, this time with lower quantity similar to Gen 2, with much better reception for most of them this time around.
If you want a clearer and true example of blatant power creep, Mega Evolution just did that. While Mega Mawile, Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Lopunny are greatly appreciated, they ended up damaging the metagames in a comparable manners to several non-special Gen 8 and 9 Pokémon thay got banned from OU and that strained VGC to an extent. And let’s not get into how obnoxiously overpowered Mega Lucario and Mega Gengar are. Mega Rayquaza, and Primal Groudon through Primal Reversion, can be argued to be the straw that broke the camel’s back for those who are already iffy with Mega Evolution.
It’s part of the reason why GF is hesitant to bring the mechanic back so far even with the ever high demand, with the last presence in traditional mainline games being Let’s Go Pikachu + Eevee. The other reason is the mechanic’s heavy lore connection to Kalos and Hoenn, thus Gen 6 as a whole, not unlike how Z-Moves, Dynamax + Gigantamax and possibly Terastalization being only in one generation.
Duraludon has a higher stat total than Charizard and should had never been considered for evolution. It is not an issue of gimmicks and the like, it is something that was designed as the ace of the final gym leader. It is not fully optimized, but it has high stats. That low SpDef is not that much lower than Rhyperior, which also has that stat total, but is slower, has a far worse defensive typing, and was already an over the top evolution of something that was already a flawed yet functional fully evolved 'mon.
And, again, plenty of species that would kill to be able to evolve into something with a 535 BST.
For the record, Mega Evolution was seen in Unova and Kanto (even before the Kalos games were released, via animation), Kalos, Hoenn and Alola. And they are less of "this specific third legendary embodies this phenomena exclusive to this region, except when it wasn't". Necrozma was at least subtle compared to Eternatus and Terapagos.
Megas were also balanced by the lack of held item (except Rayquaza, that shit was a bad take). Dynamax and Tera have no drawback.
And, again, plenty of species that would kill to be able to evolve into something with a 535 BST.
For the record, Mega Evolution was seen in Unova and Kanto (even before the Kalos games were released, via animation), Kalos, Hoenn and Alola. And they are less of "this specific third legendary embodies this phenomena exclusive to this region, except when it wasn't". Necrozma was at least subtle compared to Eternatus and Terapagos.
Megas were also balanced by the lack of held item (except Rayquaza, that shit was a bad take). Dynamax and Tera have no drawback.
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the thing is, duraludon was designed as an ace and a strong pokémon, sure, but it was also designed to be able to gigantamax in the role of the ace, and therefore was given the stat spread and one-stage line it was. were the gimmick not such a worry, duraludon and what is now archaludon could have been introduced together, and duraludon with a much lower BST since it could evolve into its true ace form anyway. i do agree it's an awkward situation gamefreak created but i think the generational gimmick curtailing design carries the blame here
L + Ratio + Skill issue + Duraludon is cute and cool and deserves everything + designs are more important than competitive and will always be
also we already have stuff like flutter mane in the games, the powercreep level you complain about has been broken when the game released and its the new power level for pokemon
also i think we as a collective fret too much about base stat totals and how they relate to evolution for a game that introduced an evolution that adds exactly 0 BST to a pokémon as early as gen 2
Worldbuilding and flavor has always trumped battle capabilities and improvement when it comes to any of these new additions to old Pokemon. New evolutions, Megas, regional forms, Gigantamax forms, and whatnot. That's always the throughline.
They always prioritize flavor and building an RPG style world. It's never "this Pokemon needs a buff" specifically. It's always "hey, we're doing this particular design concept right now, and for this Pokemon we have some ideas of how we can do something with it, let's do it!"
Duraludon in particular has a general common theme between both its G-Max form and Archaludon of being a lightweight metal monster that turns into some form of architecture. Giganatamax Duraludon is a skyscraper, while Archaludon is a bridge. G-Max was one of the ideas they did last gen and Duraludon was designed around that, but this gen we had traditional new evolutions again and they probably thought "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we had Duraludon evolve into a bridge?" and created Archaludon as a result.
In general they are always trying to create some sort of variety and worldbuilding when it comes to these: both a variety of design concepts and their choices in which Pokemon get what.
They always prioritize flavor and building an RPG style world. It's never "this Pokemon needs a buff" specifically. It's always "hey, we're doing this particular design concept right now, and for this Pokemon we have some ideas of how we can do something with it, let's do it!"
Duraludon in particular has a general common theme between both its G-Max form and Archaludon of being a lightweight metal monster that turns into some form of architecture. Giganatamax Duraludon is a skyscraper, while Archaludon is a bridge. G-Max was one of the ideas they did last gen and Duraludon was designed around that, but this gen we had traditional new evolutions again and they probably thought "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we had Duraludon evolve into a bridge?" and created Archaludon as a result.
In general they are always trying to create some sort of variety and worldbuilding when it comes to these: both a variety of design concepts and their choices in which Pokemon get what.
Here's one: Indigo Disk basically kills the idea that a "special" version of a Gen's gimmick shouldn't mean anything for barring the line from new stuff or even that branch.
There's already discourse about things like Duraludon getting an evolution to "replace" its Gigantamax, but on the flipside there's the Applin line. Appltun and Flapple are still the cap on their part of the line, but Dipplin was created as anothr counterpart followed by Hydrapple just making that branch the best one now. It's almost like seeing the two ways these updates can be handled post-gimmick Generation: Duraludon is handled fine by making a pretty function evolution and simply accepting the break in "cap" from a super form, while Dipplin goes around it in such a way that it essentially replaces the two forms that are topped by a no-longer-available form such that Hydrapple is worse if Gigantamax is allowed but better when it's not.
I much prefer the Archaludon approach to things, and think Hydrapple would have been a cool "convergent" evolution for the 3 members of the line, perhaps diversified by the pre-evo moves/signatures and could have forms (Harvest, Baked, Wormy forms) with different stats based on which one it evolved from with appropriate stats (I say forms vs separate Evos for Species clause or in case GF wants to recycle the design). I even really like Hydrapple as a mon and line in and of itself, but Appletun and Flapple off to the side bother me.
tl;dr Do more Mega-line Evolutions/Buffs like Archaludon than Dipplin/Hydrapple, design wise.
There's already discourse about things like Duraludon getting an evolution to "replace" its Gigantamax, but on the flipside there's the Applin line. Appltun and Flapple are still the cap on their part of the line, but Dipplin was created as anothr counterpart followed by Hydrapple just making that branch the best one now. It's almost like seeing the two ways these updates can be handled post-gimmick Generation: Duraludon is handled fine by making a pretty function evolution and simply accepting the break in "cap" from a super form, while Dipplin goes around it in such a way that it essentially replaces the two forms that are topped by a no-longer-available form such that Hydrapple is worse if Gigantamax is allowed but better when it's not.
I much prefer the Archaludon approach to things, and think Hydrapple would have been a cool "convergent" evolution for the 3 members of the line, perhaps diversified by the pre-evo moves/signatures and could have forms (Harvest, Baked, Wormy forms) with different stats based on which one it evolved from with appropriate stats (I say forms vs separate Evos for Species clause or in case GF wants to recycle the design). I even really like Hydrapple as a mon and line in and of itself, but Appletun and Flapple off to the side bother me.
tl;dr Do more Mega-line Evolutions/Buffs like Archaludon than Dipplin/Hydrapple, design wise.
oh, i do think hydrapple was a missed opportunity for our first convergent evolution. i get why that's a hard sell even this far into the franchise, but i really think it'd be a cool idea to try at some point.
I feel like if you’re looking for reasons to use Flapple or Appletun over Hydrapple, then you probably just want to use a Flapple or Appletun and should simply do so.
There are far harsher self-imposed restrictions you could enforce on yourself than using a suboptimal choice of Pokémon. I think I’ve only used Garchomp on a Sinnoh game team like once.
Especially if we’re just talking about a single-player campaign, where basically anything is viable. Competitively, I don’t think Flapple or Appletun were taking the world by storm before now, were they? Or like were just a hair shy of greatness and the only thing that could prevent them from making it big would be the addition of a better choice?
There are far harsher self-imposed restrictions you could enforce on yourself than using a suboptimal choice of Pokémon. I think I’ve only used Garchomp on a Sinnoh game team like once.
Especially if we’re just talking about a single-player campaign, where basically anything is viable. Competitively, I don’t think Flapple or Appletun were taking the world by storm before now, were they? Or like were just a hair shy of greatness and the only thing that could prevent them from making it big would be the addition of a better choice?
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Luvdisc is cute. Change my mind.Luvdisc and Delibird are cute gimmick 'mons that don't really need anything else; if anything just have them be early game stuff.
Delibird shouldn't had been a version exclusive in its debut. Sneasel should had been Gligar's version counterpart instead (and, of course, it should had been an Ice Path encounter before Crystal).
Tauros and Miltank should have had a shared calf preevolution. Specially for Paldea purposes; how the fuck do you have different breeds of a male-only species?
Volbeat and Illumise belonging to different experience groups is inane. While the different experience groups aren't IMO that bad as a general concept, those two (and arguably Zangoose and Seviper) don't really work as stuff that grows at a different rate.
Delibird shouldn't had been a version exclusive in its debut. Sneasel should had been Gligar's version counterpart instead (and, of course, it should had been an Ice Path encounter before Crystal).
Tauros and Miltank should have had a shared calf preevolution. Specially for Paldea purposes; how the fuck do you have different breeds of a male-only species?
Volbeat and Illumise belonging to different experience groups is inane. While the different experience groups aren't IMO that bad as a general concept, those two (and arguably Zangoose and Seviper) don't really work as stuff that grows at a different rate.
You think Duraludon shouldn't have received an evo because of powercreep; I think Duraludon shouldn't have received an evolution because it's ugly as sin and should have never been acknowledged again. We are not the same.
On the topic of Archaludon: I have no doubt that this is a dumb and pointless argument about semantics that will never die for as long as the series runs, but imo it should not count as a pseudo-legendary/ a member of the 600 Club for one simple reason: it's a 2-stage evolution line. I'm willing to accept Duraludon as a middle evolution even if it would still be obscenely strong by pseudo middle evo standards, but the lack of a crappy first evo pretty firmly disqualifies it in my eyes. The training arc inherent to pseudos is entirely absent; all it has to claim the title is a Dragon typing and a base stat total.
If going by the Pseudo-Legendary Moniker I agree, but not sure how you can argue it out of "the 600 Club" when it fits the only criteria in the name.
I'm not super familiar with the JP side of things, but my understanding is that they use the descriptor 600 Club to describe the same 'mons we do as pseudo-legendaries. Hence, Mythicals or a handful of Legendaries like Zygarde and Landorus are not considered part of the 600 Club. If I'm incorrect on this, please correct me!
But speaking of Japanese, I believe that official JP merchandise lends credence to the idea that these 'mons are categorically defined by a weak first-stage; the Pokemon Center merch set for the pseudo-legendaries is called Taiki-Bansei, an idiom which (to my understanding) is most accurately translated as Late Bloomers. The Archaludon line lacks this, and thus I don't think it classifies in this group under any moniker - fandom-based or official.
MY PSIONIC WARRIORS... GET THIS GOOFSTER
Whereas I think it shouldn't have gotten an evo because GF had to create YET ANOTHER evolution-inducing item to apply to it instead of just using a Thunder Stone again.
It's not an Electric type nor does it have anything to magnetism, why would it use the Thunder Stone? Metal Coat maybe, but not Thunder Stone.
According to Bulbapedia and whatever Japanese wiki they're associated with, the Japanese community does actually consider Archaludon part of the 600 club.
I also feel it's worth noting that pseudo-legends have a history of being the ace of or at least used by either the final Elite 4 member or champion of their respective region, with the only exceptions being Kommo-o (final Totem in Sun and Moon) Hydreigon kind of (still ace of final boss Ghetsis even if he's not technically the champion, also used by champion Iris in BW2) and Tyranitar (who got fucked by champion Lance's three Dragonites and didn't make the cut for final Elite 4 Karen's team for some reason).
With Drayton being the strongest of the Blueberry Elite 4 and Archaludon being his ace, it really seems like they're treating it as if it were a pseudo-legend.
I also feel it's worth noting that pseudo-legends have a history of being the ace of or at least used by either the final Elite 4 member or champion of their respective region, with the only exceptions being Kommo-o (final Totem in Sun and Moon) Hydreigon kind of (still ace of final boss Ghetsis even if he's not technically the champion, also used by champion Iris in BW2) and Tyranitar (who got fucked by champion Lance's three Dragonites and didn't make the cut for final Elite 4 Karen's team for some reason).
With Drayton being the strongest of the Blueberry Elite 4 and Archaludon being his ace, it really seems like they're treating it as if it were a pseudo-legend.
"According to Bulbapedia and whatever Japanese wiki they're associated with, the Japanese community does actually consider Archaludon part of the 600 club."
Where do you think I got the link to that Japanese wiki