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Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter clerica
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hey, t it uses dig on first turn and copycats (assuming it lived the atack used on it t1) , the lagging tail makes it move last when its under the ground but not when using copycat cuz dig is a two turn move this assures that you almost certainly win if get the dig off . sorry if you didnt understand a thing but tldr it assures you almost guarantee win if you like hit t1 w dig
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Yeah what Arvin said, you want Dig to go off as late as possible to stay invincible for as long as possible and so Copycat gets to copy Dig instead of whatever the opponent uses. Lagging Tail on Prankster moves doesn't usually matter since it only makes Copycat go after all other +1 priority moves
Now that results from our recent Tiering Survey have been voted on I wanted to share my votes as well as reasoning for each since transparency is something I value a lot and think consistent flow of information between those on Council and those outside of it is important.
I voted in favor of suspecting the item, which wasn't ultimately followed through but I do think as the tier develops the potential of a suspect could surely become a reality (this was especially possible to be on the slate because of community input so post about the metagame i promise you it matters). While SV isn't a great gen for it with most of the top mons being fine into it, i think it encourages the gap in our top threats between the rest of the metagame. even though there's clear favorites and top tiers in any given metagame it was made clear with this dlc that the good became great and the mid stayed relatively in similar spots. I think custap is at it's best a unique tool, but it has a much worse overall effect in my eyes that i would've like to see it receive a test before a lot more circuits continue to have a different take on the rest of the year and gen as a whole. I think when we have new mons i'd like to see how it changes/just how much it ends up getting used or pushed to the limits of mons it gets used on and the like. (not to mention u can double endure and cheese matchups which is uncompetitive but most examples of that are more shown with oldgens so not one of my main factors)
As much as i was really open to having this mon back in the tier from the jump basically, i decided to leave it out of the picture until we next consider unbans. This would have been a slightly messy unban situation, as the route council would have taken in unbanned would have left ace only playable on ladder during pools of World Cup, and if it was unbanned it would have returned for playoffs, which would have been a huge change just for pools to be a much different meta. If you look at the sheer movepool and versatility of ace it has a lot of great matchups into potent meta mons rn like sylveon ogerpon h and alola ninetales, and i think our time would be used better during WC pools by looking at the current metagame and monitoring possible unhealthy metagame aspects/mons instead of potentially allowing a mon with huge ability to shift the metagame back into the tier if voted back in.
voted DNB for this mon. I have been pretty vocal about valiant previously but i dont think the meta centralizing around this mon is a bad thing. it has consistent checks/answers to all sets it runs as well as really not being flexible or ambiguous at all on previews in my experience. i do think this mon has even more options so i could see it potentially developing into a problem but it really hasnt wowed me and choice items aren't in a great spot regardless of this mon ( bc custap lol). you can end up catching someone off guard with surprise coverage but valiant is inherently pretty easy to tell if it's choiced on preview which limits itself even more.
I voted in favor of suspecting the item, which wasn't ultimately followed through but I do think as the tier develops the potential of a suspect could surely become a reality (this was especially possible to be on the slate because of community input so post about the metagame i promise you it matters). While SV isn't a great gen for it with most of the top mons being fine into it, i think it encourages the gap in our top threats between the rest of the metagame. even though there's clear favorites and top tiers in any given metagame it was made clear with this dlc that the good became great and the mid stayed relatively in similar spots. I think custap is at it's best a unique tool, but it has a much worse overall effect in my eyes that i would've like to see it receive a test before a lot more circuits continue to have a different take on the rest of the year and gen as a whole. I think when we have new mons i'd like to see how it changes/just how much it ends up getting used or pushed to the limits of mons it gets used on and the like. (not to mention u can double endure and cheese matchups which is uncompetitive but most examples of that are more shown with oldgens so not one of my main factors)
As much as i was really open to having this mon back in the tier from the jump basically, i decided to leave it out of the picture until we next consider unbans. This would have been a slightly messy unban situation, as the route council would have taken in unbanned would have left ace only playable on ladder during pools of World Cup, and if it was unbanned it would have returned for playoffs, which would have been a huge change just for pools to be a much different meta. If you look at the sheer movepool and versatility of ace it has a lot of great matchups into potent meta mons rn like sylveon ogerpon h and alola ninetales, and i think our time would be used better during WC pools by looking at the current metagame and monitoring possible unhealthy metagame aspects/mons instead of potentially allowing a mon with huge ability to shift the metagame back into the tier if voted back in.
voted DNB for this mon. I have been pretty vocal about valiant previously but i dont think the meta centralizing around this mon is a bad thing. it has consistent checks/answers to all sets it runs as well as really not being flexible or ambiguous at all on previews in my experience. i do think this mon has even more options so i could see it potentially developing into a problem but it really hasnt wowed me and choice items aren't in a great spot regardless of this mon ( bc custap lol). you can end up catching someone off guard with surprise coverage but valiant is inherently pretty easy to tell if it's choiced on preview which limits itself even more.
Played a bit on ladder and I don't necessarily see anything new as overwhelming. I think the council should mostly focus on the unbanned Pokemon.
Hmm, I haven't seen too much from it but I think it's more broken than not broken. It has better set up moves than Greninja, better priority, and really good moves. I see it as a nuisance but I don't believe it's necessarily broken, I would like to see more of it.
outshined by other psy: Melo & Deoxys-S, theoretically it should get broken the more we ban stuff.
Not broken
V strong and bulky, can tech darks with pirouette form. I believe this is broken
HOLYYYY GET THAT THING OUT OF THE META! It creates a hole of setguessing, it has a lot of speed so it can pp stall your scarf mon, it can run specs, and can run defensive stored power. You literally have to run specific 4-5 mons to beat it. Extremely wrapping. It beats stuff like Primarina, Sylveon, Iron Boulder w/ Stored Power sets and alongside it other sets it beat 3/4 of the meta lol. this should be the first to go...
Meta has been fine, more fires and steels limited the usage of fairies however Sylv, Prim, and Valiant should all be good fairies. Drago can now be checked by metagross and iron crown to say the least on top of fairies, maybe that would fix its unhealthiness, though I doubt. Gouging fire is extremely good, and keeps a lot of the meta in check, hopefully it stays being good and not too broken. Iron crown is very good thanks to its typing and I think it'll be good in future metas. Iron boulder is a good anti-meta pick rn. Old brokens like Hearthflame should still be good when the storm passes, and valiant should also be back to its previous levels of good, however with the rampant psychics it has to wait some bans before being unhealthy again imo.
I encourage everyone to post their teams/sets/opinion on the metagame here!
Hmm, I haven't seen too much from it but I think it's more broken than not broken. It has better set up moves than Greninja, better priority, and really good moves. I see it as a nuisance but I don't believe it's necessarily broken, I would like to see more of it. outshined by other psy: Melo & Deoxys-S, theoretically it should get broken the more we ban stuff. Not broken V strong and bulky, can tech darks with pirouette form. I believe this is broken HOLYYYY GET THAT THING OUT OF THE META! It creates a hole of setguessing, it has a lot of speed so it can pp stall your scarf mon, it can run specs, and can run defensive stored power. You literally have to run specific 4-5 mons to beat it. Extremely wrapping. It beats stuff like Primarina, Sylveon, Iron Boulder w/ Stored Power sets and alongside it other sets it beat 3/4 of the meta lol. this should be the first to go...Meta has been fine, more fires and steels limited the usage of fairies however Sylv, Prim, and Valiant should all be good fairies. Drago can now be checked by metagross and iron crown to say the least on top of fairies, maybe that would fix its unhealthiness, though I doubt. Gouging fire is extremely good, and keeps a lot of the meta in check, hopefully it stays being good and not too broken. Iron crown is very good thanks to its typing and I think it'll be good in future metas. Iron boulder is a good anti-meta pick rn. Old brokens like Hearthflame should still be good when the storm passes, and valiant should also be back to its previous levels of good, however with the rampant psychics it has to wait some bans before being unhealthy again imo.
I encourage everyone to post their teams/sets/opinion on the metagame here!
laddered a bunch, here's my thoughts on new mons:
- gets great mus regardless of set, is really annoying to account for in a builder (dark types are great tho) and it finesses some even matchups with item slot. powerful mon
Gouging Flame: - spdef set seems really good in what it beats, attack booster can shred some resists that aren't eved for it specifically (i.e heard it beat a ladder prim w/ raging fury secondhand), lots of decent util but not an unfair mon, very clickabl
- in my experience of not using it i think cb gets accounted for in builder and its setup set isn't very good, sucker is a good move, counter is a good move, idk tho it's not the strongest fire and you're not running baby zardx by running this so is it really worth it
- life orb is a fraud (use melo), id is fine; usually ends up as crit bait and doesn't do very well into current meta; haven't used any other sets (surely cb x scissor is fake)
Iron Crown: fraud, he does nothing, use meta
- decent enough with encore custap, kind of good glue but also decently bulkable by mons it should have a good mu against
- av is probs its best set rn, knock is great; hone claws is probs usable ive just not seen it
- strong, worth choicing cause val is fake, specs is a drug and you have , you can can ev to guarantee diff specific mus; melo + fairy slaps
Raging Bolt: fraud with unreliable moves
- it's decently good, not overbearing and couple of mons beat it regardless of set, prolly becomes a benchmark mon - milk take that'll get disproven eventually
Iron Boulder: fraud that kills nothing and dies to everything that it doesn't have an SE move vs, also shafted by psychic meta
- id say use fast specs or np custap with bulk, good enough mon, one taps some mons
archaludon: feels like a better zone but no fire move sucks for it, it's fun but that's all it is with mons bulking way more powerful special moves
maybe i missed some new mons but that's probs cause they suck /hj, have fun laddering (alternatively spam deo-s prim gouging)
- gets great mus regardless of set, is really annoying to account for in a builder (dark types are great tho) and it finesses some even matchups with item slot. powerful monGouging Flame: - spdef set seems really good in what it beats, attack booster can shred some resists that aren't eved for it specifically (i.e heard it beat a ladder prim w/ raging fury secondhand), lots of decent util but not an unfair mon, very clickabl
- in my experience of not using it i think cb gets accounted for in builder and its setup set isn't very good, sucker is a good move, counter is a good move, idk tho it's not the strongest fire and you're not running baby zardx by running this so is it really worth it - life orb is a fraud (use melo), id is fine; usually ends up as crit bait and doesn't do very well into current meta; haven't used any other sets (surely cb x scissor is fake)Iron Crown: fraud, he does nothing, use meta
- decent enough with encore custap, kind of good glue but also decently bulkable by mons it should have a good mu against - av is probs its best set rn, knock is great; hone claws is probs usable ive just not seen it - strong, worth choicing cause val is fake, specs is a drug and you have , you can can ev to guarantee diff specific mus; melo + fairy slaps Raging Bolt: fraud with unreliable moves
- it's decently good, not overbearing and couple of mons beat it regardless of set, prolly becomes a benchmark mon - milk take that'll get disproven eventually Iron Boulder: fraud that kills nothing and dies to everything that it doesn't have an SE move vs, also shafted by psychic meta
- id say use fast specs or np custap with bulk, good enough mon, one taps some mons archaludon: feels like a better zone but no fire move sucks for it, it's fun but that's all it is with mons bulking way more powerful special moves
maybe i missed some new mons but that's probs cause they suck /hj, have fun laddering (alternatively spam deo-s prim gouging)
The first thing you say gotta go is Cinderace because you got gimped by a Shuca Berry variant. I'm not one to say this a lot, but I actually think you got skill issued on bromy take on what should go. i'm of the opinion that we should try to have a really large 1st slate in which people lean towards being a bit ban happy, followed by a 2nd slate 2-3 weeks after in which more bans take place / some unbans are made. while this is a controversial way to undertake this process, it would compress likely 3-4 months of tiering into 2-3 weeks. the mons involve both unbanned/ dlc2 mons as well as some predlc2 mons which were the main talking points regarding tiering action.
the mons I would put on the slate are:
But even aside from the obvious thing in 1v1 called "tech", said Shuca Cinderace still probably easily beats it's normal things without a Life Orb boost or smth. But I do agree with everything you did say -- shits broken it gotta goooooo
Hello, it is time for another completely unwarranted analysis on a random move: Fickle Beam
Premise: On the first turn of the battle, does fickle beam, dragon pulse, or draco meteor do more damage on average.
Fickle beam, a strange special dragon move with a 30% chance to do double. Does a move with a 30% chance to do 160 damage with perfect accuracy defeat the reigning champ draco meteor? No! but fickle comes in at 91% of draco's damage. That's worth considering imo (seeing that Fickle's highest damage is more than draco's with no chance to miss.)
Verdict:
While this move is limited to just one pokemon, Hydrapple, we could see it spread over time. Other moves that have lost their signature move status: Heat Crash, Sacred Sword, Soft boiled, etc, so this one may as well. Maybe Hydreigon, Dragapult, or Alolan Exegg could get it.
It ultimately comes in pretty close as a weaker alternative to draco meteor, but a better move than dragon pulse.
...
Bc I get comments like "what does this mean" or "why" or "this is confusing & it was obvious" on these type of posts, need I remind everyone of the fruits of these weird studies: Charge Koko/ Zera/ Eleki, Guardian of Alola + Brine, Tough Claws + Stomping tantrum Mega Metagross, etc.
Premise: On the first turn of the battle, does fickle beam, dragon pulse, or draco meteor do more damage on average.
Fickle beam, a strange special dragon move with a 30% chance to do double. Does a move with a 30% chance to do 160 damage with perfect accuracy defeat the reigning champ draco meteor? No! but fickle comes in at 91% of draco's damage. That's worth considering imo (seeing that Fickle's highest damage is more than draco's with no chance to miss.)
Total Damage = Normal damage + Damage due to crits without secondary + Damage due to secondary chance without crits + Damage due to secondary & crits - Damage due to misses
(all assuming high rolls for now)
Expanded out for fickle:
Total Damage = [240 * Base Damage * (1-Secondary %) * (1-(1/24))] + [240 * Base Damage * 1.5 * (1/24) * (1-Secondary %)] + [240 * Base Damage * 1.5 * Secondary % * 2 * 1/24]
(all assuming high rolls for now)
Expanded out for fickle:
Total Damage = [240 * Base Damage * (1-Secondary %) * (1-(1/24))] + [240 * Base Damage * 1.5 * (1/24) * (1-Secondary %)] + [240 * Base Damage * 1.5 * Secondary % * 2 * 1/24]
Verdict:
While this move is limited to just one pokemon, Hydrapple, we could see it spread over time. Other moves that have lost their signature move status: Heat Crash, Sacred Sword, Soft boiled, etc, so this one may as well. Maybe Hydreigon, Dragapult, or Alolan Exegg could get it.
It ultimately comes in pretty close as a weaker alternative to draco meteor, but a better move than dragon pulse.
...
Bc I get comments like "what does this mean" or "why" or "this is confusing & it was obvious" on these type of posts, need I remind everyone of the fruits of these weird studies: Charge Koko/ Zera/ Eleki, Guardian of Alola + Brine, Tough Claws + Stomping tantrum Mega Metagross, etc.
Hello everyone. I thought I would share my thoughts on the post-Indigo Disk metagame. I'm not particularly good, and my past experience with 1v1 is extremely limited, so please take what follows with a grain of salt. However, I have played a not insignificant amount in the past couple of weeks, and I managed to get to accounts into the top 10 on ladder simultaneously (ephemeralidea peaking at no. 4, and armaldlo at no. 7). So, perhaps that gives me just enough credibility to make my post worthy of a cursory glance.
I don't have much to say that's worth hearing on the vast majority of returning pokemon or unbanned pokemon, so I won't self-indulge by talking about Meloetta, Cinderace, Necrozma, Iron Boulder, Primarina and so forth. However, there is a short list of pokemon I would like to discuss:
1. Deoxys-Speed - In my personal opinion, which is rather uneducated on banning, Deoxys-Speed appears ban worthy, and I would like to see tiering action of some sort, whether a quick ban or a suspect test, taken. The stall boosting set is very strong, and it is able to beat a tremendous number of pokemon provided that it avoids being crit. Compounding this, Deoxys-Speed's choice specs attacker set can lure important checks to stall Deoxys and stands a decent chance to kill them with powerful special attacks. Deoxys also has the option to run counter-coat sets with taunt and can bulk for hits like Incineroar fake out into darkest lariat.
2. Gouging Fire - It's been interesting to see Gouging Fire be regarded as Charizard-Mega-X II. I certainly thought that way when it was released, calling it "Megazard-X at home," but I've changed my opinion. There are three major differences between the pokemon, not including move sets. Paradox entei is noticeably bulkier, having 105/121/93 defences instead of 78/111/85. In practice, that is the difference between dying to timid Porygon-Z hyper beam and living. Additionally, because our friend from Area Zero is not a mega evolution, it has a free item slot. While booster energy attack is the most common, and likely best, option for Gouging Fire, booster energy defense, haban berry, and assault vest are all possible. However, not being able to mega-evolve means that Gouging Fire is not able to play the mind games that Charizard was able to; it cannot change its type, and so it is unable to gain the benefits of altering its weaknesses.
Gouging fire also has several notable additions to its move pool: burning bulwark, noble roar, and morning sun. Burning bulwark allows Gouging Fire to flip certain losing matchups, namely Haxorus and Roaring Moon. The other two moves create the potential for viable stall sets, especially coupled with defence-raising booster energy or a berry. Mega-Charizard-X never had that potential, and I can see Gouging Fire becoming broken because of that flexibility as the meta develops, though I do not believe it is currently.
That being said, Gouging Fire lacks the initial hitting power that the lizard-king of generation 7 had, and perhaps this holds it back significantly enough.
3. Iron Crown - In so far as I can tell, Iron Crown has three major sets: choice specs, booster energy speed, and weakness policy. The booster energy speed and weakness policy sets both have the same fundamental idea to them; they use either iron defence or calm mind to boost the relevant stats before unleashing a powerful stored power or tachyon cutter. The choice specs set is capable of hitting dark types that try to beat boosting sets, though I doubt this is very significant in practice. I have not looked at the boosting sets concretely, but I would suggest Iron Crown be watched; it may prove to be broken in time.
4. Archaludon - Archaludon was given all the tools it could have reasonably asked for. Sturdy is the third strongest ability in the tier by my reckoning, and it has a tremendous move pool to draw from. The power herb set is tremendously strong, OHKOing most things it hits super effectively, and 2HKOing everything that doesn't resist. Archaludon is also a viable user of custap berry, though I prefer power herb. At present, the alloy pokemon doesn't appear broken, but it certainly can become broken in the future. If physical attacking sets or mirror coat and metal burst are able to beat a significant number of Archaludon's answers, then it could easily be too much.
5. Hydrapple - I haven't come across Hydrapple much. It's the least used of the new pokemon as far as I can tell. I haven't got much to say about it really, though I would like to mention that fickle beam may create a rather odd burden for calculating defensive evs. 160 base power happens frequently enough that it becomes the benchmark rather than draco meteor's 130, and I would be curious to see if potentially having the additional 30 base power allows Hydrapple to cheese through any matchups as the tier develops, even though, as Chrispy Burns has skillfully calculated, it does less damage than draco meteor on average.
6. Custap Berry - It's not a pokemon, but it seems to have generated considerable discussion on this thread so far. As someone who is in a very real sense new to the tier, perhaps my opinion carries mild interest. Very little weight, certainly, but, if I may flatter myself overmuch, interest all the same. The position of custap in the tier has not strengthened with the release of indigo disk. Though several prominent custap users arrived, most visibly Primarina and Porygon-Z, most of the good new pokemon really don't care much. Deoxys-S and Iron Crown are primarily defensive boosting pokemon, who are unlikely to suffer much from being surprised by custap berry. Gouging Fire likes having burning bulwark around anyway to handle Haxorus and Roaring Moon, and Raging Bolt is quite happy to run thunderclap. Archaludon is rather indifferent to custap berry, since it can either use or be victimized by the item depending on its set.
To give a note on the general metagame, I think that it was best summarized in the 1v1 showdown room: the meta feels like a bunch of broken things all holding each other in check. As things stand now, the tier feels balanced. However, I do not believe it will stay that way as pokemon are further optimized and develop additional sets. Specifically, I believe that the pokemon mentioned here, and perhaps Meloetta, Cinderace, Necrozma, and Hoopa-Unbound may merit tiering action in the future. I will leave the questions of Iron Valiant and Regidrago entirely to more experienced players.
I understand RTM's point about wanting a quicker suspect process with large slates to settle the metagame for the upcoming tournaments. However, I disagree. At present, the only thing that is clearly broken is Doexys-Speed and perhaps some of the unbanned pokemon. I would rather give the meta more time to develop and avoid possible Kyurem-Black scenarios in the future.
Please feel free to correct me if I have made any significant oversights in this post. This is not intended to be the final word on the matter, and I haven't that sort of authority even if it was my intent. Thank you for bearing with me on this overly long monologue.
As a final note, which is really more of a gripe, I strongly dislike that both forms of Urshifu appear the same on team preview. I understand the rationale behind it, and remaining faithful to cartridge mechanics is a noble goal. However, in the case of 1v1, I feel it violates the spirit of the tier. It's my own personal carthago delenda est, and I wouldn't want any tiering action taken against the wushu pokemon, especially given the precedent of the mega Charizards.
I don't have much to say that's worth hearing on the vast majority of returning pokemon or unbanned pokemon, so I won't self-indulge by talking about Meloetta, Cinderace, Necrozma, Iron Boulder, Primarina and so forth. However, there is a short list of pokemon I would like to discuss:
1. Deoxys-Speed - In my personal opinion, which is rather uneducated on banning, Deoxys-Speed appears ban worthy, and I would like to see tiering action of some sort, whether a quick ban or a suspect test, taken. The stall boosting set is very strong, and it is able to beat a tremendous number of pokemon provided that it avoids being crit. Compounding this, Deoxys-Speed's choice specs attacker set can lure important checks to stall Deoxys and stands a decent chance to kill them with powerful special attacks. Deoxys also has the option to run counter-coat sets with taunt and can bulk for hits like Incineroar fake out into darkest lariat.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys-Speed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Incineroar: 378-446 (95.9 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys-Speed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 522-616 (129.2 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Regidrago: 520-613 (96.1 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (I'm not sure what non-bulky Regidrago really does, so this may not be relevant)
Of course, it is possible to ev for these attacks with Incineroar or Regidrago and to use assault vest on Urshifu, but it becomes quite restrictive on teambuilding.
252+ Atk Incineroar Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Deoxys-Speed: 35-42 (11.5 - 13.8%) -- possible 8HKO
252+ Atk Incineroar Darkest Lariat vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Deoxys-Speed: 222-264 (73.2 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys-Speed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 522-616 (129.2 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Regidrago: 520-613 (96.1 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (I'm not sure what non-bulky Regidrago really does, so this may not be relevant)
Of course, it is possible to ev for these attacks with Incineroar or Regidrago and to use assault vest on Urshifu, but it becomes quite restrictive on teambuilding.
252+ Atk Incineroar Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Deoxys-Speed: 35-42 (11.5 - 13.8%) -- possible 8HKO
252+ Atk Incineroar Darkest Lariat vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Deoxys-Speed: 222-264 (73.2 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
2. Gouging Fire - It's been interesting to see Gouging Fire be regarded as Charizard-Mega-X II. I certainly thought that way when it was released, calling it "Megazard-X at home," but I've changed my opinion. There are three major differences between the pokemon, not including move sets. Paradox entei is noticeably bulkier, having 105/121/93 defences instead of 78/111/85. In practice, that is the difference between dying to timid Porygon-Z hyper beam and living. Additionally, because our friend from Area Zero is not a mega evolution, it has a free item slot. While booster energy attack is the most common, and likely best, option for Gouging Fire, booster energy defense, haban berry, and assault vest are all possible. However, not being able to mega-evolve means that Gouging Fire is not able to play the mind games that Charizard was able to; it cannot change its type, and so it is unable to gain the benefits of altering its weaknesses.
Gouging fire also has several notable additions to its move pool: burning bulwark, noble roar, and morning sun. Burning bulwark allows Gouging Fire to flip certain losing matchups, namely Haxorus and Roaring Moon. The other two moves create the potential for viable stall sets, especially coupled with defence-raising booster energy or a berry. Mega-Charizard-X never had that potential, and I can see Gouging Fire becoming broken because of that flexibility as the meta develops, though I do not believe it is currently.
That being said, Gouging Fire lacks the initial hitting power that the lizard-king of generation 7 had, and perhaps this holds it back significantly enough.
252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 20 SpD Gouging Fire: 174-205 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 20 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 186-220 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 384-454 (106.6 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 358-422 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 256-303 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 20 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 186-220 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 384-454 (106.6 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 358-422 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 256-303 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3. Iron Crown - In so far as I can tell, Iron Crown has three major sets: choice specs, booster energy speed, and weakness policy. The booster energy speed and weakness policy sets both have the same fundamental idea to them; they use either iron defence or calm mind to boost the relevant stats before unleashing a powerful stored power or tachyon cutter. The choice specs set is capable of hitting dark types that try to beat boosting sets, though I doubt this is very significant in practice. I have not looked at the boosting sets concretely, but I would suggest Iron Crown be watched; it may prove to be broken in time.
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Crown: 258-306 (80.3 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Iron Crown Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 465-547 (112.3 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Incineroar: 408-482 (103.5 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 16 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Urshifu: 328-386 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (Urshifu's evs are the standard damage calculator set; what they might be for, I do not know)
+2 252 SpA Iron Crown Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 465-547 (112.3 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Incineroar: 408-482 (103.5 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 16 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Urshifu: 328-386 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (Urshifu's evs are the standard damage calculator set; what they might be for, I do not know)
4. Archaludon - Archaludon was given all the tools it could have reasonably asked for. Sturdy is the third strongest ability in the tier by my reckoning, and it has a tremendous move pool to draw from. The power herb set is tremendously strong, OHKOing most things it hits super effectively, and 2HKOing everything that doesn't resist. Archaludon is also a viable user of custap berry, though I prefer power herb. At present, the alloy pokemon doesn't appear broken, but it certainly can become broken in the future. If physical attacking sets or mirror coat and metal burst are able to beat a significant number of Archaludon's answers, then it could easily be too much.
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 398-470 (109.3 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 249-294 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 373-441 (93.7 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (with 200 special defence evs and calm mind, Necrozma can moonlight spam to victory)
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 249-294 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 373-441 (93.7 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (with 200 special defence evs and calm mind, Necrozma can moonlight spam to victory)
5. Hydrapple - I haven't come across Hydrapple much. It's the least used of the new pokemon as far as I can tell. I haven't got much to say about it really, though I would like to mention that fickle beam may create a rather odd burden for calculating defensive evs. 160 base power happens frequently enough that it becomes the benchmark rather than draco meteor's 130, and I would be curious to see if potentially having the additional 30 base power allows Hydrapple to cheese through any matchups as the tier develops, even though, as Chrispy Burns has skillfully calculated, it does less damage than draco meteor on average.
6. Custap Berry - It's not a pokemon, but it seems to have generated considerable discussion on this thread so far. As someone who is in a very real sense new to the tier, perhaps my opinion carries mild interest. Very little weight, certainly, but, if I may flatter myself overmuch, interest all the same. The position of custap in the tier has not strengthened with the release of indigo disk. Though several prominent custap users arrived, most visibly Primarina and Porygon-Z, most of the good new pokemon really don't care much. Deoxys-S and Iron Crown are primarily defensive boosting pokemon, who are unlikely to suffer much from being surprised by custap berry. Gouging Fire likes having burning bulwark around anyway to handle Haxorus and Roaring Moon, and Raging Bolt is quite happy to run thunderclap. Archaludon is rather indifferent to custap berry, since it can either use or be victimized by the item depending on its set.
To give a note on the general metagame, I think that it was best summarized in the 1v1 showdown room: the meta feels like a bunch of broken things all holding each other in check. As things stand now, the tier feels balanced. However, I do not believe it will stay that way as pokemon are further optimized and develop additional sets. Specifically, I believe that the pokemon mentioned here, and perhaps Meloetta, Cinderace, Necrozma, and Hoopa-Unbound may merit tiering action in the future. I will leave the questions of Iron Valiant and Regidrago entirely to more experienced players.
I understand RTM's point about wanting a quicker suspect process with large slates to settle the metagame for the upcoming tournaments. However, I disagree. At present, the only thing that is clearly broken is Doexys-Speed and perhaps some of the unbanned pokemon. I would rather give the meta more time to develop and avoid possible Kyurem-Black scenarios in the future.
Please feel free to correct me if I have made any significant oversights in this post. This is not intended to be the final word on the matter, and I haven't that sort of authority even if it was my intent. Thank you for bearing with me on this overly long monologue.
As a final note, which is really more of a gripe, I strongly dislike that both forms of Urshifu appear the same on team preview. I understand the rationale behind it, and remaining faithful to cartridge mechanics is a noble goal. However, in the case of 1v1, I feel it violates the spirit of the tier. It's my own personal carthago delenda est, and I wouldn't want any tiering action taken against the wushu pokemon, especially given the precedent of the mega Charizards.
Know what? I think I can give my insight on 1v1.
I peaked at 1468 ELO, but dropped down to 1324... Awesome. I was so close to cracking Top 500 and it took me 160+ games to do so. Soooo close man, so damn close. But aside from me being super salty about my lack of skill, this is my genuine thoughts on the current state of 1v1.
TEAMBUILDING
I wanted to use Incineroar on this team. I seen it's potential with beating the top metagame picks such as Cinderace and the multitude of Psychic types -- which is most of the unbanned pokemon. Little did I realize out of over 160 games, it was brought 7 TIMES. 7. It was used against 2 Kyurem's, 1 Cinderace, 1 Meowscarada, 1 Forretress, 1 Metagross and 1 Alolan Muk. That's it. It lost to both of the Kyurem's and the Metagross, but I had hoped to use it more. It just didn't feel right to me. My suggestion: please do not use Incineroar. It's not good in 1v1 at all. There's just so many better Dark types that can do its job better. In testing Incineroar, I wanted something that could beat certain Necrozma sets, Deoxys Speed, and Archaludon in the same slot. This eventually ended up being a fast Taunt pokemon instead. The last team member was Archaludon -- who ended up being used the most. I had used
and 
. The end team was and . And while I didn't use them, I did consider both 
and 
. These were the sets I used in the process.
THE METAGAME ITSELF
Finally! The part most of you were waiting for. After much testing and metagame development, here's what I think about this tier.
1) Archaludon is obsurd. The fact that this thing got me -- a pretty bad 1v1 player -- to 1468 just goes to show the variables and utter bullshit this thing is. WHY does it have Sturdy? I have absolutely no clue. But this single thing just pushes this guy over the edge. You actually can't OHKO this unless you have a wicked strong Scale Shot or Icicle Spear or like... Arm Thrust. And Electro Shot/Meteor Beam (because why settle for 1 SpAtk boosting move when you can have 2) additionally make this thing too damn strong in the context of 1v1. At least a Choice Specs set can be scouted with Protect or Disable fodder, but that's just not the case with this thing. This thing is actually the new Iron Valiant -- so many sets and you just can't deal with all of them. The most reliable answer to this thing is probably Ursaluna-Bloodmoon since it can anticipate a Mirror Coat with Blood Moon and has priority to answer Custap sets, but it also loses to Choice Specs. Specially Defensive Necrozma is also fairly decent, but I heard rumors of Metal Sound + Throat Spray to be an effective +3 SpAtk 85% of the time (15% of the time you're at +1 in this case -- which is more than enough most of the time). I really hope this doesn't become a thing, otherwise this is gone.
2) The Psychic types. Deoxys Speed is gone, but that leaves Meloetta, Hoopa-Unbound, and Necrozma left on the list. Meloetta is just so unfair to me with Relic Song and Serene Grace having a 20% sleep chance. You do switch forms in doing so, but that really doesn't matter if you get that sleep chance. Necrozma also has the same tomfoolery as from Gen 8 with its multiple annoying sets. It could end up like Sableye in the sense that the generational transition may nerf it to the point of no ban, but I doubt this. Hoopa-Unbound is perhaps the weakest link of these 3, but it still has 160 Attack and 170 SPECIAL ATTACK stats. 80 speed is the same as Regidrago -- which is by no means slow with a Choice Scarf. I didn't know much about Meloetta but I did know Hoopa-Unbound adapted it's slow speed with Rock Tomb and that was a wrap for it. I do hope the Psychic types of this tier follow suite to Deoxys Speed and get rightfully banned within time, or some savior of ours finds something to beat these annoying shitheads.
3) Custap Berry is as restraining as ever. Things have changed since the DLC 1 released. Custap Berry has only gotten better with the unpredictability factor of it. Everything can use this reliably with the only VALID WAY to beat it genuinely being priority moves. But its partner in crime Endure actually means you can't even do that. Custap Berry mind games to me are so incredibly tedious. My best answer is just Sturdy Archaludon -- which will be adapted to within time. Here's to me hoping maybe Indeedee F becomes meta to stop this berry menace.
4) Stall. Stall is a thing within every tier. I'm aware of this. But why the HELL is this Pressure Substitute Protect shit so annoying to face? Probably a teambuilding issue, but Taunt Landorus helps with this. I really hate the stall mons in this tier nonetheless. Kyurem, Zapdos, Wo-Chien, Corviknight, Ogerpon, Whimsicott. It doesn't matter who it is, it's still annoying as dogshit. Will this die down? No. Will something be banned because of stall? Also no. I just gotta cope and wait for things to mend themselves automatically.
I learned a lot with this tier. It's not balanced at all. It's not fun to me either. But maybe after this goes out, hopefully the tier can be a little bit more fun within time. I'll keep you guys updated on the things I find good to hopefully beat these things (unless they get banned before then -- in which case I'll be proud).
<- I'm watching you...
I peaked at 1468 ELO, but dropped down to 1324... Awesome. I was so close to cracking Top 500 and it took me 160+ games to do so. Soooo close man, so damn close. But aside from me being super salty about my lack of skill, this is my genuine thoughts on the current state of 1v1.
TEAMBUILDING
I wanted to use Incineroar on this team. I seen it's potential with beating the top metagame picks such as Cinderace and the multitude of Psychic types -- which is most of the unbanned pokemon. Little did I realize out of over 160 games, it was brought 7 TIMES. 7. It was used against 2 Kyurem's, 1 Cinderace, 1 Meowscarada, 1 Forretress, 1 Metagross and 1 Alolan Muk. That's it. It lost to both of the Kyurem's and the Metagross, but I had hoped to use it more. It just didn't feel right to me. My suggestion: please do not use Incineroar. It's not good in 1v1 at all. There's just so many better Dark types that can do its job better. In testing Incineroar, I wanted something that could beat certain Necrozma sets, Deoxys Speed, and Archaludon in the same slot. This eventually ended up being a fast Taunt pokemon instead. The last team member was Archaludon -- who ended up being used the most. I had used
and . The end team was and . And while I didn't use them, I did consider both and . These were the sets I used in the process.SUPLEX (Incineroar) @ Chople Berry
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 136 HP / 40 Atk / 244 SpD / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Fake Out
- Protect
^ Bulk lives a Modest
Hyper Beam from , outspeeds minimal speed invested base 70s like 
and , and the rest of the EVs are put into Atk. 
allows this Incineroar to beat and 
.
Hook Line & Sinker (Basculegion-F) (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Adaptability
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 176 HP / 100 Def / 160 SpA / 52 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Shadow Ball
- Aqua Jet
- Mud Shot
^ Bulk lives both an Adamant
Earthquake from :landorus t:, and a +1 Modest Electro Shot from -- as well as a Modest Psycho Boost from . The speed allows this set to outspeed Timid . You can forgo the Def EVs to put them into SpAtk in order to nearly guarantee an OHKO against bulkless with the combination of Mud Shot -> Shadow Ball thanks to Adaptability.
PK Rusty Bardiche (Spectrier) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Grim Neigh
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 92 HP / 32 SpA / 208 SpD / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Draining Kiss
- Calm Mind
- Taunt
^ Outspeeds the base 120 speed tier, lives a Modest Psycho Boost from even after the -2 thanks to 
and Calm Mind. The remaining EVs are put into SpAtk. Yea I uum... didn't really like this pokemon. It's cool and all, but it didn't fit my playstyle.
Aladdin (Landorus) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 108 HP / 20 SpA / 128 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Taunt
^ Bulk lives a Blood Moon -> Vacuum Wave from Modest :Bloodmoon ursaluna:, maximum Speed Timid lets it outspeed the base 100 speed tier, with the remaining EVs into SpAtk. Pretty simple set that favors bulk > power.
Noah (Archaludon) @ Power Herb / Petaya Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Electro Shot / Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Thunder Wave / Scary Face
^ See, the funny thing about this is that Scary Face/Thunder Wave is actually like... really good unironically because now you just outspeed something that would otherwise beat you and you instead beat them because of it. Timid Archaludon is already threatening enough, but with the +1 given by
or Electro Shot, it's downright obsurd. You could really honestly mix and match this thing to your liking. But whatever you do: DON'T USE A MODEST NATURE. This is suboptimal because you outspeed adamant things like 
and 
-- and besides, your strong enough on your own because well... you got a free +1 SpAtk against every non Volt Absorb and Ground type. I recommend this above all else unless you're a set, in which case a Modest nature is preferable.
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 136 HP / 40 Atk / 244 SpD / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Fake Out
- Protect
^ Bulk lives a Modest
Hyper Beam from , outspeeds minimal speed invested base 70s like and , and the rest of the EVs are put into Atk. allows this Incineroar to beat and .Hook Line & Sinker (Basculegion-F) (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Adaptability
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 176 HP / 100 Def / 160 SpA / 52 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Shadow Ball
- Aqua Jet
- Mud Shot
^ Bulk lives both an Adamant
Earthquake from :landorus t:, and a +1 Modest Electro Shot from -- as well as a Modest Psycho Boost from . The speed allows this set to outspeed Timid . You can forgo the Def EVs to put them into SpAtk in order to nearly guarantee an OHKO against bulkless with the combination of Mud Shot -> Shadow Ball thanks to Adaptability.PK Rusty Bardiche (Spectrier) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Grim Neigh
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 92 HP / 32 SpA / 208 SpD / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Draining Kiss
- Calm Mind
- Taunt
^ Outspeeds the base 120 speed tier, lives a Modest
Psycho Boost from even after the -2 thanks to and Calm Mind. The remaining EVs are put into SpAtk. Yea I uum... didn't really like this pokemon. It's cool and all, but it didn't fit my playstyle.Aladdin (Landorus) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 108 HP / 20 SpA / 128 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Taunt
^ Bulk lives a Blood Moon -> Vacuum Wave from Modest :Bloodmoon ursaluna:, maximum Speed Timid lets it outspeed the base 100 speed tier, with the remaining EVs into SpAtk. Pretty simple set that favors bulk > power.
Noah (Archaludon) @ Power Herb / Petaya Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Electro Shot / Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Thunder Wave / Scary Face
^ See, the funny thing about this is that Scary Face/Thunder Wave is actually like... really good unironically because now you just outspeed something that would otherwise beat you and you instead beat them because of it. Timid Archaludon is already threatening enough, but with the +1 given by
or Electro Shot, it's downright obsurd. You could really honestly mix and match this thing to your liking. But whatever you do: DON'T USE A MODEST NATURE. This is suboptimal because you outspeed adamant things like and -- and besides, your strong enough on your own because well... you got a free +1 SpAtk against every non Volt Absorb and Ground type. I recommend this above all else unless you're a set, in which case a Modest nature is preferable.THE METAGAME ITSELF
Finally! The part most of you were waiting for. After much testing and metagame development, here's what I think about this tier.
1) Archaludon is obsurd. The fact that this thing got me -- a pretty bad 1v1 player -- to 1468 just goes to show the variables and utter bullshit this thing is. WHY does it have Sturdy? I have absolutely no clue. But this single thing just pushes this guy over the edge. You actually can't OHKO this unless you have a wicked strong Scale Shot or Icicle Spear or like... Arm Thrust. And Electro Shot/Meteor Beam (because why settle for 1 SpAtk boosting move when you can have 2) additionally make this thing too damn strong in the context of 1v1. At least a Choice Specs set can be scouted with Protect or Disable fodder, but that's just not the case with this thing. This thing is actually the new Iron Valiant -- so many sets and you just can't deal with all of them. The most reliable answer to this thing is probably Ursaluna-Bloodmoon since it can anticipate a Mirror Coat with Blood Moon and has priority to answer Custap sets, but it also loses to Choice Specs. Specially Defensive Necrozma is also fairly decent, but I heard rumors of Metal Sound + Throat Spray to be an effective +3 SpAtk 85% of the time (15% of the time you're at +1 in this case -- which is more than enough most of the time). I really hope this doesn't become a thing, otherwise this is gone.
2) The Psychic types. Deoxys Speed is gone, but that leaves Meloetta, Hoopa-Unbound, and Necrozma left on the list. Meloetta is just so unfair to me with Relic Song and Serene Grace having a 20% sleep chance. You do switch forms in doing so, but that really doesn't matter if you get that sleep chance. Necrozma also has the same tomfoolery as from Gen 8 with its multiple annoying sets. It could end up like Sableye in the sense that the generational transition may nerf it to the point of no ban, but I doubt this. Hoopa-Unbound is perhaps the weakest link of these 3, but it still has 160 Attack and 170 SPECIAL ATTACK stats. 80 speed is the same as Regidrago -- which is by no means slow with a Choice Scarf. I didn't know much about Meloetta but I did know Hoopa-Unbound adapted it's slow speed with Rock Tomb and that was a wrap for it. I do hope the Psychic types of this tier follow suite to Deoxys Speed and get rightfully banned within time, or some savior of ours finds something to beat these annoying shitheads.
3) Custap Berry is as restraining as ever. Things have changed since the DLC 1 released. Custap Berry has only gotten better with the unpredictability factor of it. Everything can use this reliably with the only VALID WAY to beat it genuinely being priority moves. But its partner in crime Endure actually means you can't even do that. Custap Berry mind games to me are so incredibly tedious. My best answer is just Sturdy Archaludon -- which will be adapted to within time. Here's to me hoping maybe Indeedee F becomes meta to stop this berry menace.
4) Stall. Stall is a thing within every tier. I'm aware of this. But why the HELL is this Pressure Substitute Protect shit so annoying to face? Probably a teambuilding issue, but Taunt Landorus helps with this. I really hate the stall mons in this tier nonetheless. Kyurem, Zapdos, Wo-Chien, Corviknight, Ogerpon, Whimsicott. It doesn't matter who it is, it's still annoying as dogshit. Will this die down? No. Will something be banned because of stall? Also no. I just gotta cope and wait for things to mend themselves automatically.
I learned a lot with this tier. It's not balanced at all. It's not fun to me either. But maybe after this goes out, hopefully the tier can be a little bit more fun within time. I'll keep you guys updated on the things I find good to hopefully beat these things (unless they get banned before then -- in which case I'll be proud).
<- I'm watching you...[2025 edit: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/throat-spray-and-magician.3736298/#post-9990794]
[throat spray does not work with magician in one turn, it will work in two turns]
Crazy additions to the meta rn.
Throat spray Hoopa-U with Psychic Noise & Magician is nasty & everything magnezone ran could be adapted to archaludon with nearly the same power.
Hard press scizor is also doing great, however with hard press potentially going from 120BP to 100BP, it becomes less of a choice band option (technician kicking up hard press's base power when the opponent is at half health or less). I do really like pounce and/or trailblaze as choice band scizor options to hit at the end of turn 1 and the beginning of turn 2. I still think a non choice set is the way to go with bullet punch/ swords dance.
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Necrozma is ban-worthy to me because of its exclusive access to 2 over-powered moves:
I wish Necrozma would at least go on a suspect list.
- Prismatic Laser which is the strongest move usable in 1v1 (on par with Gigaton Hammer but Tinkaton is mediocre with only 75 base attack).
- Photon Geyser which can work both as a physical and a special move, meaning Necrozma's set is hard to predict.
I wish Necrozma would at least go on a suspect list.
Im just going to voice my opinion about this course of action. First of all, there should be a community survey to determine what mons get banned to begin with, or at least a council vote based on otr. I assume that's implied, but it was notably missing from this post.
Last post, I talked about ban / unban slate, had that went through, we would have reached a fresh meta already. Unfortunately, council largely just laughed it off, however I did receive positive feedback from non-council. Despite this, I want to change my approach from ban/unban slate to something different. This post is my opinion and doesn't reflect the views of the entire council. Shoutout njnp for bringing the kokoloko method to my attention.
The Idea
Seeing the recent situation in ou regarding the kokoloko method being discussed, I see one main flaw with it which is every single mon is re-suspected. This would take a significant amount of time for results which would be mostly expected. I firmly believe that the best approach to take from here is similar to the kokoloko method, however, instead of everything being resuspected, a community feedback survey decides which mons are re-suspected (via 60% agreement from qualified voters). This would ensure a majority decision is reached not by the council, but the community, giving the wider community say on what should and shouldn't be re-suspected. This fixes many of the problems with my previous idea, as it makes bans not revolve only around the council, and it negates the speculative element of the previous method. After this process has played out, tiering would return to normal unless there was significant reason not to.
List of Mons To Ban
Scroll up for reasoning on any of these. I've removedas it was the most speculation based.
This wouldn't be a slate, these mons would be banned, without any council vote.
Why?
The way discussion is leading, the mons that are currently otr will not all be banned. Going off the latest suspect which took 2 weeks to complete, assuming a 2 week intermission to allow the ban to be implemented and meta to settle, the suspect process takes 4 weeks to complete. From collecting opinions from the otr thread and meta discussion, cinderace and likely one of meloetta and necrozma will be quickbanned and hoopa and necro/melo will be left to suspect. These 2 suspects would take 8 weeks together. Assuming regidrago, custap* and iron valiant are suspected at a later date, these suspects would take 20 weeks, or about 5 months altogether, given a generous 2 weeks between each of them. By following the method I proposed, only the things the community finds worthy of re-suspect would be suspected, greatly shortening the time needed to reach an ideal metagame.
*Custap will not be involved in this as a suspect is basically required for this sort of thing, but it will be happening.
Why the bans being speculative doesn't matter
One of the main arguments against this system is that banning mons that are only slightly unhealthy at the time on bans, but have shown they could be broken as the meta progresses is solely based on speculation, mainly
Why this Method is More Reliable than Traditional Tiering (In this specific case)
This methods reliability is based off the fact that the one mon would be isolated, instead of other broken mons co-existing, making it seem more healthy. I'll use random mons so people don't misinterpret what I say. For example, sayis being suspected before anything else. In this scenario it is clearly unhealthy, however during the suspect,
proves to be the bigger problem. This demographic continues and
How this method grants the wider community more say
Despite this method involving the council removing more mons, it's no different to just quick-banning things, except for the fact it gives the community more input, as they can vote on which mons should stay banned/be taken to suspect. The recent survey showed that people largely thought the council was out of touch with the actual community and I see this as the perfect solution. While some believe the community just want suspects, I believe giving the community a fresh, more healthy meta fast is what the community deserve. As for suspect enthusiasts, there would be no lack of suspects, they would just be more meaningful.
Pros:
- Reaching an ideal meta faster
- Giving the community more influence and say
- Reducing impact of council so that everyone's opinion matters
- Isolated suspects increase reliability
- Less heavy-lifting for TLs in terms of suspects
- Less stress on room staff from people complaining about certain mons
- Very easy to revert decisions if shown to be wrong, unlike traditional tiering
Cons:
- Untraditional
- Speculative in nature, although this is fully remedied by a community vote for re-suspects, and the re-suspects themselves
As always, lmk what you think, I'd appreciate lots of feedback / discussion both here and on the on the radar thread. Contrary to popular belief, the most important thing behind many council decisions is community input and discussion, so if many of you agree, this could realistically happen. My discord is rtm24, hmu if u have any questions.
My main concern is that once we ban these mons, the meta will not support the return of any mons whether or not they would otherwise be balanced. This is because players would not prep for them, and therefore they would not fit easily back into the new post-ban meta. For example, if we banned Meowscarada or Porygon-Z, people would likely no longer run bulk for these threats, and many teams would be 3-0d by them. This would make it difficult to determine whether they should be resuspected.
If we take the more cautious method of only quick banning mons that are clearly banworthy (with community support), and suspecting those that are more controversial, it would certainly take significantly longer as you pointed out. However, this has the advantage of actually seeing the meta with the suspected mon where players adapt to deal with it. This makes it easier to accurately determine whether the mon should be banned.
If we decide to use a community survey to determine what mons are banned initially, I doubt people will change their mind later on. Confirmation bias is going to come into play here, and resuspects will not go through.good post
1st off, a community survey would be the best method to decide the mons banned.
As for the meta not supporting the return of mons, I definitely see your point, however, people would be able to contrast their experiences with building/playing and opinions from before it was banned. To add to your example, people might be changing their teams from before the ban and realise, oh wait, my teams beat meowscarada without really trying. Or they might see, huh, I don't have to run av urshifu on every team (random example) to beat porygon-z reliably anymore. The experience building and playing in absence of these threats is what would help form peoples opinion of whether they should be banned or not and I believe you underestimate players in thinking they won't be able to see it from this perspective.
To give a relevant example, say regidrago is banned. After its banned, people realise that they still find themselves running a fairy and a steel type which beat drago on every team so they deem it fine to return for a suspect. So while I definitely understand your point, the opposite would also happen and it would lead to mons that require very specific counters or necessitate usually unviable counters staying banned, as players realise how far they had to go out of their way to counter those mons.
As for the standard method, you've acknowledged it'd take significantly longer, and also stated that it has the advantage of seeing the meta with the suspected mon as players adapt. One problem with this is as I stated:This methods reliability is based off the fact that the one mon would be isolated, instead of other broken mons co-existing, making it seem more healthy. I'll use random mons so people don't misinterpret what I say. For example, say
Its easy to act like there are no risks to tiering the standard way, however, the risks are more wasting time, and damaging trust with the community.
While it certainly does benefit from having the meta already somewhat adapt to the threat, making it focal point, being a re-suspect would also achieve the same thing. By having a community vote and counting voters for what is re-suspected, we can't go wrong, as a community consensus is the only real way to gauge the opinion of the community as a whole. Rather than tiering for just what council wants, we should respect everyone's opinion, so if the 1v1 community as a whole agrees on something by majority, it should be final, regardless of if some individuals disagree.
People would not be able to accurately compare their experience building with and without a specific mon because your proposed method bans several mons at once, only allowing players to compare it with a completely different meta.
Top tier threats in 1v1 are always going to require other mons/teams to adapt to them. Teams do not beat strong mons without trying.
The problem with suspecting you cite here is really a non issue. Qualified voters are definitely smart enough to realize if something is banworthy whether or not there is another broken in the meta. Not to mention that council should suspect the most banworthy mon based on community input. I understand that council dropped the ball in dlc1, but that doesn't mean we need to rework the entire system.
YES DUDE. If 1v1 had a tiering survey to give our opinions on what should and should not be banned, this tier would be soooo much better off. Maybe the bans wouldn't come directly from the survey but AT LEAST things get acknowledged more. Just think about it: no Iron Valiant. No Regidrago. No Necrozma. Maybe also no Cinderace while your at it. The bans so far were expected and not controversial at all...
My hope for 2024 and SV 1v1 is 2 things:
1) Hopefully I can put up a good showing in PL
2) Things fix themselves. I PRAY somebody finds some meta shaping thing that can help with whatever obscene things we come across. Nothing's too bad as of now, but who knows? A lot can change in a month. We have essentially until November of 2025 to sort out everything before the next gen comes out so... cheers ig
New here on forum but long time showdown player
Im here to discuss 2 thinks:
1) i really agree that some mons should be banned, i dont know why its not obvious, like, even if we ban 5/6/7/8/9 mons, we still got like 700 xD not that people wouldnt got options...
2) i find today one guy using zapdos with PP ability, agility, substitute, protect and roost, i REALLY think that strategy is 100% antigame, like, ok its not hard to counter, just use something with taunt or disable or encore, ok, but its 100% not fun and this shouldnt be permitted, winning against anyone with 80 rounds just letting they got out of PP is not a strategy, this is not like things with screens, protects and you win with toxic or leech seed or anything, this is just stupid
Im here to discuss 2 thinks:
1) i really agree that some mons should be banned, i dont know why its not obvious, like, even if we ban 5/6/7/8/9 mons, we still got like 700 xD not that people wouldnt got options...
2) i find today one guy using zapdos with PP ability, agility, substitute, protect and roost, i REALLY think that strategy is 100% antigame, like, ok its not hard to counter, just use something with taunt or disable or encore, ok, but its 100% not fun and this shouldnt be permitted, winning against anyone with 80 rounds just letting they got out of PP is not a strategy, this is not like things with screens, protects and you win with toxic or leech seed or anything, this is just stupid
A lot of these strategies with Zapdos PP stall, toxic and leech seed that you speak of are easily countered with the moves Encore and Taunt as well as Pokemon which just hit generally hard. I’m going to assume that whatever teams you use just end up being 3-0ed by these sets. I’d recommend you give Skeledirge a try, it should be able to naturally break through these strategies with Torch Song going through Substitute and naturally boosting its Special Aftack as well as a powerful Blaze Blast Burn which can be given priority with Custap Berry and Encore.
yeah man, thx for the answer, i know the counters, i just find that strategy of winning by PP is really anti game, the others with toxic leech seed and etc at least win because the other guy is losing HP against a real move, this strategyis just wait 70 turns and win, that doesnt even make sense
We should keep track of sets that work across multiple gens in a thread!
(If this exists, here's the twist: we should do a 3-9 challenge with only one edit between each gen.)
Porygon-Z has remained a very consistent build for a decade with ev's changing each gen, hitmonlee, aron, pikachu & more do functionally the same in gen 5 as they do in 9. I think its worth taking a look at what set just keeps working no matter the generational gimmick.
(If this exists, here's the twist: we should do a 3-9 challenge with only one edit between each gen.)
Porygon-Z has remained a very consistent build for a decade with ev's changing each gen, hitmonlee, aron, pikachu & more do functionally the same in gen 5 as they do in 9. I think its worth taking a look at what set just keeps working no matter the generational gimmick.
This post will respond to the community concerns around the meta via MY OWN opinion.
I will start by saying that I've been enjoying both building and clicking in this meta, it's def the most fun I've had in SV or 1v1 for the past months. It is true that the current teams seem to be the same ish mons however I think it's just the novelty factor playing and we're gonna see more diversity in a bit and as deep as we get in GC. This meta reminds me of ORAS, it is top heavy but it still has room for innovation and new mons, it is also v balanced imo.
Basically how I see it is that we're in a Dragon dominant metagame instead of the usual Fairy dominant that we've been used to, I believe this can create some unease for some builders and players because when Dragons are popular instead, some cores such as FWG gets less and less popular with cores such as DD, DFairyS, DFireFairy... get more and more common. This dragon heavy meta is just caused by our Dragons being really good, and especially the two best dragons Gouging Fire and Archaludon not being afraid of Steels and Fairies like other dragons.
Both Gouging Fire, and Archaludon have been phenomenal and easy to fit on every meta, they possess really great tools when it comes to offensive and defense and can juggle between their EVs and Sets. Both of these dragons are a ton better than Regidrago in the current meta, and people should acknowledge that. Gouging Fire and Archaludon nail better MUs on preview and can be built around easily due to their flexibility and great chemistry with a lot of Pokemon also their checks are not always linear (specially Gouging Fire). Meanwhile, the current meta cores really hurt Regidrago from one side, Steels like Corvik, Iron Crown, and Metagross beat it most of the time, Fairies always beat it, vs Dragons it's a toss due to Haban Berry from both sides being probable. Regidrago checks are one linear and you know what beats Regidrago directly from preview + it has to stretch itself and may lose to Pokemon like Cresselia, and PZ. Don't get me wrong, Regidrago is a good Pokemon as it can beat Pokemon like Ursaluna or Iron Hands that may annoy other Dragons but imo it's not the unhealthy Pokemon it was before, def. not in the current meta.
On topic with the Dragon metagame, these there's still Raging Bolt, Haxorus, and Dragapult that are actually good and have niches which is honestly great to see, competition exists around dragons on the team and def. not one linear. IMO no Dragons are currently broken or unhealthy I'd love to see more from this meta before judging anything.
Hoopa-U seems like an annoying Pokemon honestly but it's held back by Dragon-types like Regidrago and Gouging. It is a v good Pokemon with great offensive and defensive capabilities and can beat Fairies, Steels and Psychics, however the annoying part is that it has to actually hit 2 Gunk Shots sometimes to beat a fairy. It's pretty inconsistent but when you feelin' lucky it rarely loses. What holds it back is def the Dragon metagame, and U-turn on unexpected mons (Ogerpon), it also has to stretch itself to beat a lot of stuff which makes it annoying for the player and opponent. I still don't see it as problematic yet.
Custap Berry. lol. I have yet to see any surprise custap user, or anything from that item that would push it into the unhealthy territory. It's a normal item and has been a fine addition. Come on, are you telling me we don't know that Skeledirge, Primarina, and Sylveon are the main 3 that run custap and rarely archaludon. The users of this item are linear as of yet and we know how to beat them and what beat them whether they run custap or any other item. I don't see the hype around this item, all other items are way better unless your name is Skeledirge and Primarina
I'm gonna end this by saying, can we seriously start holding Encore accountable to the bs in our metagame. Ever since Encore has widened its distribution in SS and now SV the metagames have been very volatile and shaky. SS isn't a topic rn but I think we should take action in SV. The main reason people see Valiant, Custap, and other Pokemon such as Snorlax and Dragonite as blatantly unhealthy or broken is because of Encore, imo w/out encore the whole metagame changes to the better. Encore forces you tiptoe your moves, it restricts what you can do in-game and what Pokemon check what Pokemon, I think it's time to SERIOUSLY discuss the unhealthy aspect of encore.
tldr;
DO NOT TOUCH THE META RN, IT'S BALANCED.
Regidrago worse than Gouging and Archa
Hoopa-u not broken
Custap Berry is a fine addition to the metagame, 0 unhealthy aspect as of yet
Serious discussion around Encore should be held.
I will start by saying that I've been enjoying both building and clicking in this meta, it's def the most fun I've had in SV or 1v1 for the past months. It is true that the current teams seem to be the same ish mons however I think it's just the novelty factor playing and we're gonna see more diversity in a bit and as deep as we get in GC. This meta reminds me of ORAS, it is top heavy but it still has room for innovation and new mons, it is also v balanced imo.
Basically how I see it is that we're in a Dragon dominant metagame instead of the usual Fairy dominant that we've been used to, I believe this can create some unease for some builders and players because when Dragons are popular instead, some cores such as FWG gets less and less popular with cores such as DD, DFairyS, DFireFairy... get more and more common. This dragon heavy meta is just caused by our Dragons being really good, and especially the two best dragons Gouging Fire and Archaludon not being afraid of Steels and Fairies like other dragons.
Both Gouging Fire, and Archaludon have been phenomenal and easy to fit on every meta, they possess really great tools when it comes to offensive and defense and can juggle between their EVs and Sets. Both of these dragons are a ton better than Regidrago in the current meta, and people should acknowledge that. Gouging Fire and Archaludon nail better MUs on preview and can be built around easily due to their flexibility and great chemistry with a lot of Pokemon also their checks are not always linear (specially Gouging Fire). Meanwhile, the current meta cores really hurt Regidrago from one side, Steels like Corvik, Iron Crown, and Metagross beat it most of the time, Fairies always beat it, vs Dragons it's a toss due to Haban Berry from both sides being probable. Regidrago checks are one linear and you know what beats Regidrago directly from preview + it has to stretch itself and may lose to Pokemon like Cresselia, and PZ. Don't get me wrong, Regidrago is a good Pokemon as it can beat Pokemon like Ursaluna or Iron Hands that may annoy other Dragons but imo it's not the unhealthy Pokemon it was before, def. not in the current meta.
On topic with the Dragon metagame, these there's still Raging Bolt, Haxorus, and Dragapult that are actually good and have niches which is honestly great to see, competition exists around dragons on the team and def. not one linear. IMO no Dragons are currently broken or unhealthy I'd love to see more from this meta before judging anything.
Hoopa-U seems like an annoying Pokemon honestly but it's held back by Dragon-types like Regidrago and Gouging. It is a v good Pokemon with great offensive and defensive capabilities and can beat Fairies, Steels and Psychics, however the annoying part is that it has to actually hit 2 Gunk Shots sometimes to beat a fairy. It's pretty inconsistent but when you feelin' lucky it rarely loses. What holds it back is def the Dragon metagame, and U-turn on unexpected mons (Ogerpon), it also has to stretch itself to beat a lot of stuff which makes it annoying for the player and opponent. I still don't see it as problematic yet.
Custap Berry. lol. I have yet to see any surprise custap user, or anything from that item that would push it into the unhealthy territory. It's a normal item and has been a fine addition. Come on, are you telling me we don't know that Skeledirge, Primarina, and Sylveon are the main 3 that run custap and rarely archaludon. The users of this item are linear as of yet and we know how to beat them and what beat them whether they run custap or any other item. I don't see the hype around this item, all other items are way better unless your name is Skeledirge and Primarina
I'm gonna end this by saying, can we seriously start holding Encore accountable to the bs in our metagame. Ever since Encore has widened its distribution in SS and now SV the metagames have been very volatile and shaky. SS isn't a topic rn but I think we should take action in SV. The main reason people see Valiant, Custap, and other Pokemon such as Snorlax and Dragonite as blatantly unhealthy or broken is because of Encore, imo w/out encore the whole metagame changes to the better. Encore forces you tiptoe your moves, it restricts what you can do in-game and what Pokemon check what Pokemon, I think it's time to SERIOUSLY discuss the unhealthy aspect of encore.
tldr;
DO NOT TOUCH THE META RN, IT'S BALANCED.
Regidrago worse than Gouging and Archa
Hoopa-u not broken
Custap Berry is a fine addition to the metagame, 0 unhealthy aspect as of yet
Serious discussion around Encore should be held.
With the announcement of the upcoming Custap and Regidrago suspects, I thought it would be a good time to give my take on some different elements of the metagame. If there would be a better place to present my thoughts on custap and regidrago specifically, or if it is taboo to promulgate them at all, please do let me know.
I’ve used spoilers to avoid the post being too long because brevity is not in my vocabulary; feel free to only read the parts that interest you. If people want, I can reformat it later.
Custap has remained controversial. So far as I can tell, the discussion surrounding custap berry is not a discussion about whether it is broken but rather about whether it is uncompetitive.
Custap berry does not meet the criteria for uncompetitiveness defined above. It introduces no additional luck into play whatsoever, it can be reasonably predicted, and its impact on any given pokemon’s matchups is rather limited as DEG has compellingly demonstrated.
Ultimately, I have little to add to DEG’s post on the matter (see p. 11). It’s mildly annoying sometimes, but it’s more annoying than it is game-changing. I can’t think of a single match that I have lost solely because something unexpected had custap berry (not including the one unexpected disable I ran into with my custap berry pokemon).
Thus, the question becomes whether custap is unhealthy in the current metagame. Personally, I do not see it as being unhealthy. It does not force one or two specific answers, push an otherwise unwilling meta into a particular team archetype, or force any other sort of grand adaptation. Yes, certain pokemon’s sets have to adapt and run priority or protect, but most pokemon do not have to adapt in this way and it is a minor adaptation on the pokemon that do, typically only the sacrifice of a moveslot or sacrificing a choice item they likely don’t want to use anyway.
From my understanding, Regidrago has been controversial for some time.
Based on the definition I laid down above, Regidrago cannot be considered broken. While it does beat a large amount of the metagame with one set (if I had to choose one, scarf), it also loses to considerable portions of the meta (i.e., faster dragons, all good fairies, most good steels, and some other miscellany) and has limited ability to adapt. While it can switch out it’s scarf for a haban berry and improve certain matchups, it still struggles into certain other dragons (haban Baxcallibur, Kyurem, unnerve Haxorus, and haban Gouging Fire mainly) and it cannot adapt to beat fairies or good steels effectively.
That Regidrago is not uncompetitive should need no explanation, but the question of whether Regidrago is unhealthy is a bit less clear. Regidrago certainly does push the meta toward the DFS or DFF or DDS team structures and is much more noticeable in that regard than other pokemon like Gouging Fire. However, the metagame is already predisposed to those structures as DEG has discussed here. As such, it seems to me that Regidrago is a contributor to, but not a cause of, the current meta’s moderate state of centralization.
Additionally, it seems to me that it is quite possible to create a strong team in the current meta without adopting one of those core structures since Regidrago does have multiple counters that do different things in the metagame and can slot into multiple team structures even if they fit most easily into the DFS archetype or its variants. Primarina, for instance, is not solely confined to Primarina + Metagross or Primarina + Gouging Fire cores.
So, I do not believe Regidrago is unhealthy for the current meta, or at least not unhealthy enough to merit a ban. While it encourages centralization, it does not mandate it and the meta’s focus on DFS-type teams is not unnatural.
I largely agree with DEG on this matter, and I have no real reason to invest the time to further develop my thoughts at the present moment.
This may be a product of my own ignorance on the matter or my recent entry into the tier, but I’m rather confused as to why the possibility of banning booster energy is even being discussed. The only pokemon that makes use of booster energy in such a way as to be even potentially problematic is Iron Valiant, which should provoke a discussion surrounding whether Iron Valiant is unhealthy (not, mind you, broken), not whether the item is. My knee-jerk reaction is to ban a single pokemon rather than an item that benefits many pokemon if the item is only genuinely abused by said pokemon (to offer a somewhat weak example, ban Mimikyu not Ghostium Z).
At present, the meta feels stable, albeit very mildly centralized. However, this centralization does not seem unhealthy, and the centralization around pokemon like Gouging Fire or Primarina (or, for that matter, Gouging Fire and Primarina) does not seem unassailable. It seems to me that we can innovate our way out of this; the meta is quite underdeveloped right now and there is plenty of room to innovate.
Given the underdeveloped nature of the meta, I would be inclined to hold off on any bans. Nothing is currently broken, and as was noted in the thread I have so frequently referenced throughout this post, it’s unclear what is unhealthy until the meta is stable, and I would add to that until the meta is developed.
Tl;dr: please don’t ban anything and listen to DEG.
I’ve used spoilers to avoid the post being too long because brevity is not in my vocabulary; feel free to only read the parts that interest you. If people want, I can reformat it later.
This represents my own opinion; please take it only as that. I’m not particularly good at 1v1, though I think I have sufficient ethos to give my opinion on the tier. If you disagree, feel free to say so, though I would ask you do not do so vitriolically.
Before launching into any discussion of the things to be suspected, it seems prudent to first define some critical terms, namely broken, uncompetitive, and unhealthy. My primary resources for this discussion will be a rather old, but nevertheless useful, forum thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...rk-for-competitive-and-uncompetitive.3550201/
Broken
I personally don’t see the question of what makes a pokemon broken to be that complex. It is worth noting however that what is broken in OU and what is broken in 1v1 differs slightly, so relying on the cited thread is not particularly helpful here.
I would suggest something is broken if either
A) The pokemon is capable of beating nearly the entire metagame with a single set (e.g., Terapagos) or, more likely,
B) The pokemon is capable of beating a sizable majority of the metagame with a single set and can viably run other sets to beat the main sets counters with relatively limited opportunity cost (cf. Mew in Gen7, Deoxys-Speed in Gen9)
This is a slightly fuzzy definition, but it should work for my purposes.
Uncompetitive
The question of what makes something uncompetitive requires a bit more discussion and, indeed, is the primary subject of the forum I dredged up.
Ultimately, something that is uncompetitive substantially devalues the impact of player decision making either by introducing a significant amount of luck into the game (i.e., sleep, quick claw, focus band), or by being unreasonable to predict and sufficiently changing the outcome of matchups. For further explications of this concept, please see the quotes below.
Unhealthy
In the aforementioned thread, reymedy offered what seems to me to be a valuable definition of unhealthiness in pokemon. According to reymedy, an unhealthy pokmeon is “something neither outright uncompetitive nor broken enough to be stamped as such, but applying an undesirable influence on a given metagame.”
ABR offered a similar, but slightly more comprehensive definition:
“In regards to centralization and team matchup, a pokemon is unhealthy if it forces excessive adaptations that lead to a metagame where it is severely difficult to reasonably match up against all types of relevant teams, because so much focus goes into checking this unhealthy pokemon/strategy. Another way to look at centralization or brokenness in regards to the metagame is if it hinders metagame variety/development. If there is a pokemon/strat that is so good that everyone uses it, and there is very limited counterplay for it, then only very specific teams can thrive. This causes a very stale metagame, with very few viable options, which is arguably unhealthy.” [Emphasis added]
Was this all necessary? Almost certainly not, but I get agitated when people do not define their terms. It often creates unnecessary confusion.
Broken
I personally don’t see the question of what makes a pokemon broken to be that complex. It is worth noting however that what is broken in OU and what is broken in 1v1 differs slightly, so relying on the cited thread is not particularly helpful here.
I would suggest something is broken if either
A) The pokemon is capable of beating nearly the entire metagame with a single set (e.g., Terapagos) or, more likely,
B) The pokemon is capable of beating a sizable majority of the metagame with a single set and can viably run other sets to beat the main sets counters with relatively limited opportunity cost (cf. Mew in Gen7, Deoxys-Speed in Gen9)
This is a slightly fuzzy definition, but it should work for my purposes.
Uncompetitive
The question of what makes something uncompetitive requires a bit more discussion and, indeed, is the primary subject of the forum I dredged up.
Ultimately, something that is uncompetitive substantially devalues the impact of player decision making either by introducing a significant amount of luck into the game (i.e., sleep, quick claw, focus band), or by being unreasonable to predict and sufficiently changing the outcome of matchups. For further explications of this concept, please see the quotes below.
Jpw234:
“Therefore, I propose the following definitions: a competitive metagame maximizes the number of meaningful, balanced choices available to players. Something could be considered uncompetitive if it decreases the number of meaningful, balanced choices available to players.” [Emphasis original]
Dread Arceus:
“Uncompetitive is either
1) A thoughtless strategy or aspect of the game
2) Something that takes away from the need to use strategy to win games.”
WECAMEASROMANS:
“Uncompetitive elements of the game remove or significantly decrease the amount of choices a player can make and dramatically shifts the game away from skill towards other external factors.”
“Therefore, I propose the following definitions: a competitive metagame maximizes the number of meaningful, balanced choices available to players. Something could be considered uncompetitive if it decreases the number of meaningful, balanced choices available to players.” [Emphasis original]
Dread Arceus:
“Uncompetitive is either
1) A thoughtless strategy or aspect of the game
2) Something that takes away from the need to use strategy to win games.”
WECAMEASROMANS:
“Uncompetitive elements of the game remove or significantly decrease the amount of choices a player can make and dramatically shifts the game away from skill towards other external factors.”
Unhealthy
In the aforementioned thread, reymedy offered what seems to me to be a valuable definition of unhealthiness in pokemon. According to reymedy, an unhealthy pokmeon is “something neither outright uncompetitive nor broken enough to be stamped as such, but applying an undesirable influence on a given metagame.”
ABR offered a similar, but slightly more comprehensive definition:
“In regards to centralization and team matchup, a pokemon is unhealthy if it forces excessive adaptations that lead to a metagame where it is severely difficult to reasonably match up against all types of relevant teams, because so much focus goes into checking this unhealthy pokemon/strategy. Another way to look at centralization or brokenness in regards to the metagame is if it hinders metagame variety/development. If there is a pokemon/strat that is so good that everyone uses it, and there is very limited counterplay for it, then only very specific teams can thrive. This causes a very stale metagame, with very few viable options, which is arguably unhealthy.” [Emphasis added]
Was this all necessary? Almost certainly not, but I get agitated when people do not define their terms. It often creates unnecessary confusion.
Custap has remained controversial. So far as I can tell, the discussion surrounding custap berry is not a discussion about whether it is broken but rather about whether it is uncompetitive.
Custap berry does not meet the criteria for uncompetitiveness defined above. It introduces no additional luck into play whatsoever, it can be reasonably predicted, and its impact on any given pokemon’s matchups is rather limited as DEG has compellingly demonstrated.
Ultimately, I have little to add to DEG’s post on the matter (see p. 11). It’s mildly annoying sometimes, but it’s more annoying than it is game-changing. I can’t think of a single match that I have lost solely because something unexpected had custap berry (not including the one unexpected disable I ran into with my custap berry pokemon).
Thus, the question becomes whether custap is unhealthy in the current metagame. Personally, I do not see it as being unhealthy. It does not force one or two specific answers, push an otherwise unwilling meta into a particular team archetype, or force any other sort of grand adaptation. Yes, certain pokemon’s sets have to adapt and run priority or protect, but most pokemon do not have to adapt in this way and it is a minor adaptation on the pokemon that do, typically only the sacrifice of a moveslot or sacrificing a choice item they likely don’t want to use anyway.
From my understanding, Regidrago has been controversial for some time.
Based on the definition I laid down above, Regidrago cannot be considered broken. While it does beat a large amount of the metagame with one set (if I had to choose one, scarf), it also loses to considerable portions of the meta (i.e., faster dragons, all good fairies, most good steels, and some other miscellany) and has limited ability to adapt. While it can switch out it’s scarf for a haban berry and improve certain matchups, it still struggles into certain other dragons (haban Baxcallibur, Kyurem, unnerve Haxorus, and haban Gouging Fire mainly) and it cannot adapt to beat fairies or good steels effectively.
That Regidrago is not uncompetitive should need no explanation, but the question of whether Regidrago is unhealthy is a bit less clear. Regidrago certainly does push the meta toward the DFS or DFF or DDS team structures and is much more noticeable in that regard than other pokemon like Gouging Fire. However, the metagame is already predisposed to those structures as DEG has discussed here. As such, it seems to me that Regidrago is a contributor to, but not a cause of, the current meta’s moderate state of centralization.
Additionally, it seems to me that it is quite possible to create a strong team in the current meta without adopting one of those core structures since Regidrago does have multiple counters that do different things in the metagame and can slot into multiple team structures even if they fit most easily into the DFS archetype or its variants. Primarina, for instance, is not solely confined to Primarina + Metagross or Primarina + Gouging Fire cores.
So, I do not believe Regidrago is unhealthy for the current meta, or at least not unhealthy enough to merit a ban. While it encourages centralization, it does not mandate it and the meta’s focus on DFS-type teams is not unnatural.
I largely agree with DEG on this matter, and I have no real reason to invest the time to further develop my thoughts at the present moment.
This may be a product of my own ignorance on the matter or my recent entry into the tier, but I’m rather confused as to why the possibility of banning booster energy is even being discussed. The only pokemon that makes use of booster energy in such a way as to be even potentially problematic is Iron Valiant, which should provoke a discussion surrounding whether Iron Valiant is unhealthy (not, mind you, broken), not whether the item is. My knee-jerk reaction is to ban a single pokemon rather than an item that benefits many pokemon if the item is only genuinely abused by said pokemon (to offer a somewhat weak example, ban Mimikyu not Ghostium Z).
At present, the meta feels stable, albeit very mildly centralized. However, this centralization does not seem unhealthy, and the centralization around pokemon like Gouging Fire or Primarina (or, for that matter, Gouging Fire and Primarina) does not seem unassailable. It seems to me that we can innovate our way out of this; the meta is quite underdeveloped right now and there is plenty of room to innovate.
Given the underdeveloped nature of the meta, I would be inclined to hold off on any bans. Nothing is currently broken, and as was noted in the thread I have so frequently referenced throughout this post, it’s unclear what is unhealthy until the meta is stable, and I would add to that until the meta is developed.
Tl;dr: please don’t ban anything and listen to DEG.
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