OU ADV OU Viability Ranking and Metagame Discussion

[McMeghan]

My VRs post-SPL. Worth noting these are based on tournament games/prep rather than ladder. I also only included Pokemons I actually used/tried/tested with over the last 4-5 months, which is why some Pokemons I consider viable won't be featured.

S-Rank

I like Thief a lot to limit other Skarm's longevity and if you're not facing Skarm, it's likely going to be useful anyway. Just requires more finesse. I also like OffSkarm on fat teams for the odd Magneton match-ups. Not a fan of Taunt in general, it's mainly useful against other Skarm but they will usually find ways to Spikes anyway. Can work on fast pased SkarmOffenses though.


Max HP Bold Blissey is actually incredible. At the cost of IB, you're now much less pressed by pretty much the whole tier and also do a much better job checking the mix attackers like Mence or Salamence. Wish and Cleric are two of the best moves in the tier and enable so many sets/Pokémons, and Bliss is tied with Jirachi as the best Wisher and the best Cleric by far. CM Bliss is also excellent but I think it requires back-up Special checks on the team as otherwise it's too easily abused by a lot of Pokémons without the threat of status.


Sand is just too good. Weird mon to use right now because a lot of meta advancement has been done with beating down/trapping Ttar into weather reset, which is very strong into a lot of TtarSkarm offenses. PursuitTtar also has a unique spot in the metagame that can't be quite filled by anything else and enables a lot of other Pokémons/teams. I like most sets besides the Mixed one. SubTtar probably deserves more usage, as it can be protect itself into sack+Dug plays and is a good breaker in general.

A-Rank

I think Wish is one of the best move in the tier, and works excellently for me and the way I play. Much like Spikes, it makes every Pokémon better, and Jirach is the best user of it. Besides that, I think it has a good set into any team or playstyle. I rate pretty all of its sets besides the Mixed one. I think it's also better than ever in an era where a lot of people are including Suicune in their build, as Jirachi works very well against it in Sand but with a better snowball potential than other Pokemons used for the job. Wish Rachi one of the best Pokémon to have against Skarm teams, which are historically the most consistent teams in the tier.


Hard to go wrong with Meta, although I find it too eratic as a stand-alone offensive piece. I like it a lot alongside good old Mag to enable better Boom targets for your traditional offenses. Also good on balance as a better offensive ramp than other Rock resists and it's not like Skarm cant touch it so you're advantaged long term if you have your own spinner. Boom is a free out of jail freecard if your defense got overwhelmed. AgiliGross still very good to me. Don't like the Mixed sets at all.


Just very sturdy and consistent with an awesome package of move. I rate Curse as a filler to turn the tables on Cune. EndPert is an awesome momentum reverser on Offense.


I like most sets. I've become a fan of SubDD Mence, it's very good into all these Sand-less builds. Also really useful in all those situations where people will control Mence by sending Claydol and boom on it in the late game. Clutch into TW + Ice/Boom in the back or ToxicPert/ToxicRachi as well Just not a fan of CB. It's often hard to navigate into a safe endgame vs DDMence honestly.


Most flexible spinner by far. Second check to pretty much everything in the tier, just a very reliable 'mon and while I do find it passive, it still rarely disappoints me when I use it. Big fan of Wish alongside it to play the long game vs most Spikes build.


I like all the Rest sets, Calm Cune really shifted the meta imo as it's so good into a lot of its checks. Not much else to add here. Roar Cune is still good but very support reliant, as always.


Very low on Zap atm, I don't like how it doesnt have a clear defensive role vs most of the tier. I like more specliazed Pokémons. I used to be high on SpDef Roar Rest but it's awkward to use (Rest sucks) and also thuds into Claydol/Pert so needs the right support. I'm also not a fan of the team it lands itself on at the moment. I still think it excels as an offensive ramp for offense and that's where it shines the most. Although, even then, you're sometimes missing the extra wallbreaking/offense checking that Zapdos doesn't really provide. It's also less solid into Cune right now with all those Calm and IB sets floating around. I also think it has the same issue as Moltres in Blissey is often suffocating for it, and nevermind Claydol pivoting/spinning on it. Still think it's a very reliable 'mon, but feels like a jack of all trade master of none to me right now. I have yet to experiment with the BP Rest and Sub Rest sets though and maybe there is something big to discover there.

B-Rank

Great for offense, same old. Heavily dislike EQ-less though (or at least Focus Punch).


Very good but not a big fan of Dug Offenses and while Dug Defenses are some of the best teams of the tier, they often feel quite inflexible in term of playing, not to mention limited in building options. The ability to accurately gameplan with Dug is unmatched though, and it just checks/enables too much.


I still like 3atk Leech the most as it's a very strong 'mon in the early game to put the pressure on. The defensive sets are plagued with the same issues as ever, but ironically they're also the best check to the 3atk Leech set so I often tried them. The BP sets are either gamebreaking or shit. Solid but too easily pressured for my liking. As an offensive mon, it's sort of checked by all the physical mons of the tier. I rate it but not too much. I think Protect deserves exploration on it, pairs well with Leech and reverses the momentum vs Aero. Toxic is also interesting to me because it heavily punishes a lot of pivots for it.


When you think about it, the only Spinner that doesn't freely invite Skarmory to switch in and get free leftovers heal and its spikes back. Also good at switching into passive mon thanks to Natural Cure. I quite rate those traits despite its overall passivity. The offensive sets are also nice even tho I'm not the biggest user of them. Very solid spot in the meta imo much like Claydol.


Quickly discarding Skarm is just too good. MagSpin also keeps a lot of fattish build in check and force people to be paranoid/renew themselves here and there.


We know what it does. Personally I'm not the biggest fan because I think it's a win-more kind of Pokemon. Either you're even or in the lead and Aero will checkmate your opponent in a lot of situation, or you're behind and it won't be able to reverse the situation (I don't mean those games where you're one or two flinches away from winning). Definitely good to use here and there so Celebi doesn't get too cute vs you though.


Same issues as ever to me, just not kind my jam even though I reckon it has the toolkit to influence games like almost nothing else. I ought to explore Wish support with it because now all the little chip you may take wouldn't be as crippling for late-game scenarios. Technically though, there is no unplayable match-up with Gar, but that's not really how I like to play/prep and find it super awkward to use almost all the time. Its best progress maker is also still a 75% accurate move.


I don't really rate fattish builds with Forre as the sole spinner, as those are too inflexible in term of gaming and Forre feels like it has way too much to do for them. However it's solid alongside another spinner and can use its nice kit of moves to effectively trade into Spinners or cripple Skarm.


Not super flexible in term of building but just very good at checkmating so many Pokémons, like nobody else in the tier.

C-Rank

I rate its unique ability to be a solid Rock check immune to Spikes, but I'm low on Superman builds so keeping it down in the VR. I've tried CB a little bit more this time around and its interesting in the builder but CB EQ is too often a very awkard Stab to click. Not reliable enough offensively for my taste.


Same as ever, maybe better to me in a time of high Suicune usage, but otherwise I wouldn't say I discovered something new here. I think it's nice balanced teams in a similar spot as DDMence where you're not using Mag but just gunning for an endgame after you've weakened everything. Gyarados ability to pivot/check Cune and Pert (without risking an OHKO from IB) is very good on these builds.


Excellent self-sustaining breaker. Much better in Tournaments than ladder imo as most people will respect its OHKO potential more.


Not much to add here. I know I rank it worse than a lot of people but personally I think it lacks a tiny bit of power of power for me as a lot of Pokemons can pivot into the fire moves and then afford to stay in and trade with it. I probably ought to try it more though.


Same as before to me. When I use it I tend to really like Protect + Status to push the issue into a lot of its checks and prefer to deal with Blissey through double checking than Roar.


Still a nice early-game pressure imo, but hard to find value past that and if you have to sack it early, then your advantage of playing vs a slept mon may not amount to much if the opposite sleepy mon is just sent as a sack too. I like Sub a lot on it to delay the sleep and get more mileage out of it.

D-Rank

Honestly I just almost always prefered using Medicham or Breloom. Megahorn being such an unreliable move sucks too. The Fire weakness stinks compared to Medicham. Not an awful Pokemon by any mean but personally not much of my jam.


I'm not a big fan of Spike-less Hariyama fat at this point, these teams feel too slow and too reliant on Hariyama to break through defensive teams. Solid pick into standard sand I have to admit, but kinda weak vs the rest of the meta.


I often found myself experimenting with it as it's such a nice role compressing 'mon but felt hard to justify over Jirachi most of the time. Still think it has a lot of room for exploration on Offense as a unique blend of steel typing that isn't pressued as much by Zap or CMers compared to Rachi.


I respect what ABR has done with it a lot here, it's such a nice physical check with a much better match-up into Fire types, MixMence and Zapdos. Think it has solid days ahead as more than just a Metagross-look-alike on Mag/Boom Offense. Still find it awkward because of the water weakness and the weaker power.


Not much to add here.


Neither here. Personally not a big fan as I feel like it gets too low too quick, hates status, and is too slow to make good use of its access to Boom. Stab IB + TW is hard to play around a lot of the times tho, and I respect it for that.


Really not a fan of this on typical teams where you could use Skarmory instead. Just super awkward to use imo. Cute into offense though as a way to trade something while getting that crucial spikes up. Pairs well with Trappers and I like the interaction of Boom into Mag vs Skarm, or Boom into Dug vs a lot of other things.


ABR has done wonders with it in recent months but personally I haven't explored it too much so I'm gonna keep it where I usually rank it. I always thought being the fastest CMer in the tier, without any weakness to other special mons was a very strong combo of options and I could probably try it more.

E-Rank

Always a good Pokemon to keep in the back pocket for its insane match-up into Claydol and Starmie fat, as both styles are often seen so for that reason alone, I've often considered it.


I think its niche is quite easy to find in general and I also often considered it for this reason. I especially like how it matches into offensive Celebi which is the bane of a lot of defensive teams that won't use Mence, Dug or Aero. Add Jirachi-checking to that too. The main issue here is that, as a Knock Off user, many Pokemons that switch into it are immune to Sand, which delays the progress it'll make on a given game (Pert, Meta, Ttar mainly). On other hand, if you're spinning with it, you will probably want Mag or strong anti-Skarm measure, and it will also be awkward to use as it hates dealing with WoWGar and Skarm long term. Awkward mon.


Same as ever. Would like to add it can be nasty in the backline when you're trading early. Think CB Gross into Jynx to quickly create a 5vs4 situation.


I don't rate Smeargle Offense super highly, I feel like the cost of using a Pokemon that will often not do anything but get one, maybe two spikes into a team that can't play the long term, won't be very good. Not to mention that you're gonna be stuck into weird mindgames vs Spinners. And that's not mentionning the potential nightmare situations where you run into Lum user. Def worth bringing once in a while but never really felt worth it to me.


Honestly not too bad, hard to justify however when compared to the other Fighters but it has that unique blend of bulk/power/higher speed than Hari that makes it unique and usable.


Might be overrated as a Spinner that is such a rock solid check to Ttar/Aero and also solid into a bunch of other physical attackers (Meta, Mence, Gyara, can trade with Fighters too). It's still tight to build with it, and also feels quite awkward in a lot of match-up where you don't have the Boom threat of Claydol.


Same as ever, may be worse atm if anything bc of Suicune usage, and even Starmie has been on the rise, or at least it was in SPL.


Honestly pretty nice, it's solid into Dol much like Missy but feels more useful outside of it with the combo of Knock + Toss. Still very limited vs non-fat teams ofc.

 

[bdt2002]

My VRs post-SPL. Worth noting these are based on tournament games/prep rather than ladder. I also only included Pokemons I actually used/tried/tested with over the last 4-5 months, which is why some Pokemons I consider viable won't be featured.

S-Rank

I like Thief a lot to limit other Skarm's longevity and if you're not facing Skarm, it's likely going to be useful anyway. Just requires more finesse. I also like OffSkarm on fat teams for the odd Magneton match-ups. Not a fan of Taunt in general, it's mainly useful against other Skarm but they will usually find ways to Spikes anyway. Can work on fast pased SkarmOffenses though.


Max HP Bold Blissey is actually incredible. At the cost of IB, you're now much less pressed by pretty much the whole tier and also do a much better job checking the mix attackers like Mence or Salamence. Wish and Cleric are two of the best moves in the tier and enable so many sets/Pokémons, and Bliss is tied with Jirachi as the best Wisher and the best Cleric by far. CM Bliss is also excellent but I think it requires back-up Special checks on the team as otherwise it's too easily abused by a lot of Pokémons without the threat of status.


Sand is just too good. Weird mon to use right now because a lot of meta advancement has been done with beating down/trapping Ttar into weather reset, which is very strong into a lot of TtarSkarm offenses. PursuitTtar also has a unique spot in the metagame that can't be quite filled by anything else and enables a lot of other Pokémons/teams. I like most sets besides the Mixed one. SubTtar probably deserves more usage, as it can be protect itself into sack+Dug plays and is a good breaker in general.

A-Rank

I think Wish is one of the best move in the tier, and works excellently for me and the way I play. Much like Spikes, it makes every Pokémon better, and Jirach is the best user of it. Besides that, I think it has a good set into any team or playstyle. I rate pretty all of its sets besides the Mixed one. I think it's also better than ever in an era where a lot of people are including Suicune in their build, as Jirachi works very well against it in Sand but with a better snowball potential than other Pokemons used for the job. Wish Rachi one of the best Pokémon to have against Skarm teams, which are historically the most consistent teams in the tier.


Hard to go wrong with Meta, although I find it too eratic as a stand-alone offensive piece. I like it a lot alongside good old Mag to enable better Boom targets for your traditional offenses. Also good on balance as a better offensive ramp than other Rock resists and it's not like Skarm cant touch it so you're advantaged long term if you have your own spinner. Boom is a free out of jail freecard if your defense got overwhelmed. AgiliGross still very good to me. Don't like the Mixed sets at all.


Just very sturdy and consistent with an awesome package of move. I rate Curse as a filler to turn the tables on Cune. EndPert is an awesome momentum reverser on Offense.


I like most sets. I've become a fan of SubDD Mence, it's very good into all these Sand-less builds. Also really useful in all those situations where people will control Mence by sending Claydol and boom on it in the late game. Clutch into TW + Ice/Boom in the back or ToxicPert/ToxicRachi as well Just not a fan of CB. It's often hard to navigate into a safe endgame vs DDMence honestly.


Most flexible spinner by far. Second check to pretty much everything in the tier, just a very reliable 'mon and while I do find it passive, it still rarely disappoints me when I use it. Big fan of Wish alongside it to play the long game vs most Spikes build.


I like all the Rest sets, Calm Cune really shifted the meta imo as it's so good into a lot of its checks. Not much else to add here. Roar Cune is still good but very support reliant, as always.


Very low on Zap atm, I don't like how it doesnt have a clear defensive role vs most of the tier. I like more specliazed Pokémons. I used to be high on SpDef Roar Rest but it's awkward to use (Rest sucks) and also thuds into Claydol/Pert so needs the right support. I'm also not a fan of the team it lands itself on at the moment. I still think it excels as an offensive ramp for offense and that's where it shines the most. Although, even then, you're sometimes missing the extra wallbreaking/offense checking that Zapdos doesn't really provide. It's also less solid into Cune right now with all those Calm and IB sets floating around. I also think it has the same issue as Moltres in Blissey is often suffocating for it, and nevermind Claydol pivoting/spinning on it. Still think it's a very reliable 'mon, but feels like a jack of all trade master of none to me right now. I have yet to experiment with the BP Rest and Sub Rest sets though and maybe there is something big to discover there.

B-Rank

Great for offense, same old. Heavily dislike EQ-less though (or at least Focus Punch).


Very good but not a big fan of Dug Offenses and while Dug Defenses are some of the best teams of the tier, they often feel quite inflexible in term of playing, not to mention limited in building options. The ability to accurately gameplan with Dug is unmatched though, and it just checks/enables too much.


I still like 3atk Leech the most as it's a very strong 'mon in the early game to put the pressure on. The defensive sets are plagued with the same issues as ever, but ironically they're also the best check to the 3atk Leech set so I often tried them. The BP sets are either gamebreaking or shit. Solid but too easily pressured for my liking. As an offensive mon, it's sort of checked by all the physical mons of the tier. I rate it but not too much. I think Protect deserves exploration on it, pairs well with Leech and reverses the momentum vs Aero. Toxic is also interesting to me because it heavily punishes a lot of pivots for it.


When you think about it, the only Spinner that doesn't freely invite Skarmory to switch in and get free leftovers heal and its spikes back. Also good at switching into passive mon thanks to Natural Cure. I quite rate those traits despite its overall passivity. The offensive sets are also nice even tho I'm not the biggest user of them. Very solid spot in the meta imo much like Claydol.


Quickly discarding Skarm is just too good. MagSpin also keeps a lot of fattish build in check and force people to be paranoid/renew themselves here and there.


We know what it does. Personally I'm not the biggest fan because I think it's a win-more kind of Pokemon. Either you're even or in the lead and Aero will checkmate your opponent in a lot of situation, or you're behind and it won't be able to reverse the situation (I don't mean those games where you're one or two flinches away from winning). Definitely good to use here and there so Celebi doesn't get too cute vs you though.


Same issues as ever to me, just not kind my jam even though I reckon it has the toolkit to influence games like almost nothing else. I ought to explore Wish support with it because now all the little chip you may take wouldn't be as crippling for late-game scenarios. Technically though, there is no unplayable match-up with Gar, but that's not really how I like to play/prep and find it super awkward to use almost all the time. Its best progress maker is also still a 75% accurate move.


I don't really rate fattish builds with Forre as the sole spinner, as those are too inflexible in term of gaming and Forre feels like it has way too much to do for them. However it's solid alongside another spinner and can use its nice kit of moves to effectively trade into Spinners or cripple Skarm.


Not super flexible in term of building but just very good at checkmating so many Pokémons, like nobody else in the tier.

C-Rank

I rate its unique ability to be a solid Rock check immune to Spikes, but I'm low on Superman builds so keeping it down in the VR. I've tried CB a little bit more this time around and its interesting in the builder but CB EQ is too often a very awkard Stab to click. Not reliable enough offensively for my taste.


Same as ever, maybe better to me in a time of high Suicune usage, but otherwise I wouldn't say I discovered something new here. I think it's nice balanced teams in a similar spot as DDMence where you're not using Mag but just gunning for an endgame after you've weakened everything. Gyarados ability to pivot/check Cune and Pert (without risking an OHKO from IB) is very good on these builds.


Excellent self-sustaining breaker. Much better in Tournaments than ladder imo as most people will respect its OHKO potential more.


Not much to add here. I know I rank it worse than a lot of people but personally I think it lacks a tiny bit of power of power for me as a lot of Pokemons can pivot into the fire moves and then afford to stay in and trade with it. I probably ought to try it more though.


Same as before to me. When I use it I tend to really like Protect + Status to push the issue into a lot of its checks and prefer to deal with Blissey through double checking than Roar.


Still a nice early-game pressure imo, but hard to find value past that and if you have to sack it early, then your advantage of playing vs a slept mon may not amount to much if the opposite sleepy mon is just sent as a sack too. I like Sub a lot on it to delay the sleep and get more mileage out of it.

D-Rank

Honestly I just almost always prefered using Medicham or Breloom. Megahorn being such an unreliable move sucks too. The Fire weakness stinks compared to Medicham. Not an awful Pokemon by any mean but personally not much of my jam.


I'm not a big fan of Spike-less Hariyama fat at this point, these teams feel too slow and too reliant on Hariyama to break through defensive teams. Solid pick into standard sand I have to admit, but kinda weak vs the rest of the meta.


I often found myself experimenting with it as it's such a nice role compressing 'mon but felt hard to justify over Jirachi most of the time. Still think it has a lot of room for exploration on Offense as a unique blend of steel typing that isn't pressued as much by Zap or CMers compared to Rachi.


I respect what ABR has done with it a lot here, it's such a nice physical check with a much better match-up into Fire types, MixMence and Zapdos. Think it has solid days ahead as more than just a Metagross-look-alike on Mag/Boom Offense. Still find it awkward because of the water weakness and the weaker power.


Not much to add here.


Neither here. Personally not a big fan as I feel like it gets too low too quick, hates status, and is too slow to make good use of its access to Boom. Stab IB + TW is hard to play around a lot of the times tho, and I respect it for that.


Really not a fan of this on typical teams where you could use Skarmory instead. Just super awkward to use imo. Cute into offense though as a way to trade something while getting that crucial spikes up. Pairs well with Trappers and I like the interaction of Boom into Mag vs Skarm, or Boom into Dug vs a lot of other things.


ABR has done wonders with it in recent months but personally I haven't explored it too much so I'm gonna keep it where I usually rank it. I always thought being the fastest CMer in the tier, without any weakness to other special mons was a very strong combo of options and I could probably try it more.

E-Rank

Always a good Pokemon to keep in the back pocket for its insane match-up into Claydol and Starmie fat, as both styles are often seen so for that reason alone, I've often considered it.


I think its niche is quite easy to find in general and I also often considered it for this reason. I especially like how it matches into offensive Celebi which is the bane of a lot of defensive teams that won't use Mence, Dug or Aero. Add Jirachi-checking to that too. The main issue here is that, as a Knock Off user, many Pokemons that switch into it are immune to Sand, which delays the progress it'll make on a given game (Pert, Meta, Ttar mainly). On other hand, if you're spinning with it, you will probably want Mag or strong anti-Skarm measure, and it will also be awkward to use as it hates dealing with WoWGar and Skarm long term. Awkward mon.


Same as ever. Would like to add it can be nasty in the backline when you're trading early. Think CB Gross into Jynx to quickly create a 5vs4 situation.


I don't rate Smeargle Offense super highly, I feel like the cost of using a Pokemon that will often not do anything but get one, maybe two spikes into a team that can't play the long term, won't be very good. Not to mention that you're gonna be stuck into weird mindgames vs Spinners. And that's not mentionning the potential nightmare situations where you run into Lum user. Def worth bringing once in a while but never really felt worth it to me.


Honestly not too bad, hard to justify however when compared to the other Fighters but it has that unique blend of bulk/power/higher speed than Hari that makes it unique and usable.


Might be overrated as a Spinner that is such a rock solid check to Ttar/Aero and also solid into a bunch of other physical attackers (Meta, Mence, Gyara, can trade with Fighters too). It's still tight to build with it, and also feels quite awkward in a lot of match-up where you don't have the Boom threat of Claydol.


Same as ever, may be worse atm if anything bc of Suicune usage, and even Starmie has been on the rise, or at least it was in SPL.


Honestly pretty nice, it's solid into Dol much like Missy but feels more useful outside of it with the combo of Knock + Toss. Still very limited vs non-fat teams ofc.

Not gonna lie, a lot of interesting takes here. I don’t mean that as an insult or anything, though, I mean that from the context of someone who’s not very familiar with SPL and the other big tournaments this metagame features in. That is to say, it’s possible some of the discrepancies here may come from differences in what players might see in bracket compared to on the ladder. This actually brings up a question I find very interesting from a casual player’s perspective: is it reasonable or accurate to assume that a ladder and a tournament or series of tournaments may have different usage stats and win rates for different Pokémon despite technically being the same metagame? And if so, what kinds of things might help a Pokémon succeed in one setting more than the other?



Skarmory at #1 is something I can get behind- I’ve seen Tyranitar, Skarmory, and even Metagross one time all discussed for the top spot- but Blissey at #2? I agree that 252 HP Bold Blissey is excellent, but this has to be my lack of experience with hardcore ADV OU speaking because I just don’t see it. Again, I don’t mean that as an insult. What I’m trying to say here is that I’m a living, breathing skill issue when it comes to this kind of thing, and I hadn’t taken Blissey’s Wish and cleric variants into account in my initial rankings from last year. Blissey’s ability to hold its own against several manners of threats and exercise its vast utility options, while not as vast as a few other Pokémon, makes up for its few shortcomings, many of which can be easily patched up with certain team and set tweaks. 252+ Defense, 252 Special Attack sets have also recently popped up on my radar as a potential check to various sweepers without compromising as much defensively as something like BoltBeam Starmie, historically strong against Dragon Dance cores. Natural Cure is also a great Ability that helps it against status and goes well with HP invested variants on Wish/cleric sets. Top 2 might be a bit high for my liking, but I can get behind the Blissey hype overall.



Jirachi at #4 might be an even more based take than the last one, because I’m liking both it and its Johtonian cousin Celebi more the more I look at them. Steel/Psychic is an absolutely incredible typing, and Jirachi does a great job of feeling balanced here without feeling obnoxious like it does in DPP. Special attacking sets and utility combos are the names of Jirachi’s game, but even lesser used options have some use in specific matchups, including but not limited to the underrated Suicune matchup which I considered to be in Suicune’s favor for a very long time.



I can’t remember what all I’ve thought of Dugtrio over the past year, but my sentiment that Dugtrio might be holding the metagame back has only grown over time. The problem was never Dugtrio itself- defensive teams that can make use of Arena Trap matchups can be very strong even in high level tournaments- but for whatever reason, I always found that at lower levels of play, Dugtrio was hurting my teams more than it was helping. At first I thought I was pairing it with the wrong teammates, or that I was just using Dugtrio wrong in general, but no matter what I’ve tried, I keep running into the same problem. Arena Trap may keep certain matchups on lockdown, but the reason I don’t like it in the upper half of B Tier is because of the momentum my opponents always gain from trading with it. At least from my experience, I actively avoid using Dugtrio to trap certain threats because I know fully well there’s going to be some Flying-Type in the back that gets free turns off of my Dugtrio’s Choice Band lock. Assuming Dugtrio isn’t traded directly for outright, that one turn my opponent’s Gyarados or Salamence or whatever gets for a free Dragon Dance or a free Claydol Rapid Spin changes the momentum of the game every single time. Dugtrio needs to either successfully get multiple traps off in the same game or get really good luck in its favor to be of any noticeable use consistently, since it contributes nothing to a team defensively and can find itself short on certain KOs due to poor damage rolls and a lack of passive damage helping accentuate its just okay 80 base Attack, which isn’t as great as other Choice Banders. Dugtrio’s great in the sense that it can really test lesser experienced players on how to be make use of trapping as a mechanic, but the fact that Dugtrio can be taken advantage of just as easily as you the player can isolate your opponent’s threats really, really hurts my desire to use this Pokémon in place of something with more consistent and engaging gameplay.

 

[Padeli]

Not gonna lie, a lot of interesting takes here. I don’t mean that as an insult or anything, though, I mean that from the context of someone who’s not very familiar with SPL and the other big tournaments this metagame features in. That is to say, it’s possible some of the discrepancies here may come from differences in what players might see in bracket compared to on the ladder. This actually brings up a question I find very interesting from a casual player’s perspective: is it reasonable or accurate to assume that a ladder and a tournament or series of tournaments may have different usage stats and win rates for different Pokémon despite technically being the same metagame? And if so, what kinds of things might help a Pokémon succeed in one setting more than the other?



Skarmory at #1 is something I can get behind- I’ve seen Tyranitar, Skarmory, and even Metagross one time all discussed for the top spot- but Blissey at #2? I agree that 252 HP Bold Blissey is excellent, but this has to be my lack of experience with hardcore ADV OU speaking because I just don’t see it. Again, I don’t mean that as an insult. What I’m trying to say here is that I’m a living, breathing skill issue when it comes to this kind of thing, and I hadn’t taken Blissey’s Wish and cleric variants into account in my initial rankings from last year. Blissey’s ability to hold its own against several manners of threats and exercise its vast utility options, while not as vast as a few other Pokémon, makes up for its few shortcomings, many of which can be easily patched up with certain team and set tweaks. 252+ Defense, 252 Special Attack sets have also recently popped up on my radar as a potential check to various sweepers without compromising as much defensively as something like BoltBeam Starmie, historically strong against Dragon Dance cores. Natural Cure is also a great Ability that helps it against status and goes well with HP invested variants on Wish/cleric sets. Top 2 might be a bit high for my liking, but I can get behind the Blissey hype overall.



Jirachi at #4 might be an even more based take than the last one, because I’m liking both it and its Johtonian cousin Celebi more the more I look at them. Steel/Psychic is an absolutely incredible typing, and Jirachi does a great job of feeling balanced here without feeling obnoxious like it does in DPP. Special attacking sets and utility combos are the names of Jirachi’s game, but even lesser used options have some use in specific matchups, including but not limited to the underrated Suicune matchup which I considered to be in Suicune’s favor for a very long time.



I can’t remember what all I’ve thought of Dugtrio over the past year, but my sentiment that Dugtrio might be holding the metagame back has only grown over time. The problem was never Dugtrio itself- defensive teams that can make use of Arena Trap matchups can be very strong even in high level tournaments- but for whatever reason, I always found that at lower levels of play, Dugtrio was hurting my teams more than it was helping. At first I thought I was pairing it with the wrong teammates, or that I was just using Dugtrio wrong in general, but no matter what I’ve tried, I keep running into the same problem. Arena Trap may keep certain matchups on lockdown, but the reason I don’t like it in the upper half of B Tier is because of the momentum my opponents always gain from trading with it. At least from my experience, I actively avoid using Dugtrio to trap certain threats because I know fully well there’s going to be some Flying-Type in the back that gets free turns off of my Dugtrio’s Choice Band lock. Assuming Dugtrio isn’t traded directly for outright, that one turn my opponent’s Gyarados or Salamence or whatever gets for a free Dragon Dance or a free Claydol Rapid Spin changes the momentum of the game every single time. Dugtrio needs to either successfully get multiple traps off in the same game or get really good luck in its favor to be of any noticeable use consistently, since it contributes nothing to a team defensively and can find itself short on certain KOs due to poor damage rolls and a lack of passive damage helping accentuate its just okay 80 base Attack, which isn’t as great as other Choice Banders. Dugtrio’s great in the sense that it can really test lesser experienced players on how to be make use of trapping as a mechanic, but the fact that Dugtrio can be taken advantage of just as easily as you the player can isolate your opponent’s threats really, really hurts my desire to use this Pokémon in place of something with more consistent and engaging gameplay.

The answer to the main question you ask in the first paragraph is yes in my opinion: I do think that some strategies/Pokémon perform slightly better for laddering while others work a little better in a tournament environment. I expect that the win rates/usage stats for specific pokemon are probably not much different. However, there are some key differences when teambuilding for trying to make a >1900 ladder run, compared to prepping vs a specific tourney opponent.

The idea is that on the ladder certain pokemon more strongly partition a teams matchups than others. This is actually desirable in tournament; for example one scouts their opponent and wants to bring something like dugtrio. Dugtrio is very strong at its job, but is complete fodder in certain MU's and becomes a major liability occasionally. This is what I mean by "dividing matchups". That phenomenon is *typically* NOT desirable when trying to make big ladder run (not always, and also here I'm assuming we are using only 1 single team for the entire run). For example, if you look at the collection of teams that have made it to 1900+, there are trends that reflect this, meaning people prefer to use strategies that have more broad flexibility instead of strong vs specific matchups. You usually want to build something that has an acceptable matchups vs anything when laddering. Of course, any team will have strong/weak matchups, but the hope is to use a team that has "smooth" matchups instead of like jagged shitty matchups sometimes and excellent matchups other times, if that makes sense. This is basically what you observed about dugtrio in your write up. I agree.

Some examples/trends amongst mega elo ladder teams (thinking of 1950+ here now): most use Ttar+Skarm, and I think about half have used at least one of gengar/aerodactyl. Also, almost all use swampert, I think 5/6 of the ones in my head do. The only real exception to this sort of trend is bluesenergy (goat). I won't type here why these are ideal strategies for the ladder, it'd be another one of my essays, people ofc know why. It's just that you want to use pokemon that are more flexible and certain pokemon/strategies are better at that than others (all relative to the ADV metagame ofc). There are definitely a handful of examples in my head of pokemon that are mildly overrated imo due to this jagged matchup thing, but again, that's not really a problem when prepping for a specific opponent.

Anyways, this is an interesting topic for me and I pretty much am only interested in studying these sorts ideas and high ladder teams in ADV, think it's a cool problem because of how balanced ADV is. My personal opinion is that "ladder viability" is more of a real indicator of how generally good a pokemon is but I think people disagree about that. Like people bring horse shit in tournaments sometimes and it's really frustrating to see, they get away with fishing MU's - ofc the preteens on ladder build trash too though. But imo the overall teambuilding for high ladder is much more solid generally and again I think those team's success is more indicative of a strong structure.

What we can say for certain at least is the intersection of S and A ranks between peoples ladder VR and tournament VR are definitely the best pokemon... the rest is just details, VR's are just like a fun collection of opinions anyways but its super interesting to me to try to like solve the puzzle and say definitively what the best strategies in gen3 are.

 

[johnnyg2]

The answer to the main question you ask in the first paragraph is yes: some strategies/Pokémon are best for laddering while others best for tournament. I expect that the win rates/usage stats for specific pokemon are probably not much different. However, there are some key differences when teambuilding for trying to make a >1900 ladder run, compared to prepping vs a specific tourney opponent.

The idea is that on the ladder certain pokemon more strongly partition a teams matchups than others. This is actually desirable in tournament; for example one scouts their opponent and wants to bring something like dugtrio. Dugtrio is very strong at its job, but is complete fodder in certain MU's and becomes a major liability occasionally. This is what I mean by "dividing matchups". That phenomenon is *typically* NOT desirable when trying to make big ladder run (not always, and also here I'm assuming we are using only 1 single team for the entire run). For example, if you look at the collection of teams that have made it to 1900+, there are trends that reflect this, meaning people prefer to use strategies that have more broad flexibility instead of strong vs specific matchups. You usually want to build something that has an acceptable matchups vs anything when laddering. Of course, any team will have strong/weak matchups, but the hope is to use a team that has "smooth" matchups instead of like jagged shitty matchups sometimes and excellent matchups other times, if that makes sense. This is basically what you observed about dugtrio in your write up. I agree.

Some examples/trends amongst mega elo ladder teams (thinking of 1950+ here now): most use Ttar+Skarm, and I think about half have used at least one of gengar/aerodactyl. Also, almost all use swampert, I think 5/6 of the ones in my head do. The only real exception to this sort of trend is bluesenergy (goat). I won't type here why these are ideal strategies for the ladder, it'd be another one of my essays, people ofc know why. It's just that you want to use pokemon that are more flexible and certain pokemon/strategies are better at that than others (all relative to the ADV metagame ofc). There are definitely a handful of examples in my head of pokemon that are mildly overrated imo due to this jagged matchup thing, but again, that's not really a problem when prepping for a specific opponent.

Anyways, this is an interesting topic for me and I pretty much am only interested in studying these sorts ideas and high ladder teams in ADV, think it's a cool problem because of how balanced ADV is. My personal opinion is that "ladder viability" is more of a real indicator of how generally good a pokemon is but I think people disagree about that. Like people bring horse shit in tournaments sometimes and it's really frustrating to see, they get away with fishing MU's - ofc the preteens on ladder build trash too though. But imo the overall teambuilding for high ladder is much more solid generally and again I think those team's success is more indicative of a strong structure.

What we can say for certain at least is the intersection of S and A ranks between peoples ladder VR and tournament VR are definitely the best pokemon...lol. The rest is just details, VR's are just like a fun collection of opinions anyways but its super interesting to me to try to like solve the puzzle and say definitively what the best strategies in gen3 are.

I wanted to push back a little here bc of how rote you describe reaching the top echelons of the ladder is. I may not be in the upper crust any more, but I’ve been laddering adv for a long time. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts on how you reached 1900+. But there are a lot of ways to do it.

I’ve reached 1900+ with dug offense. I’ve gotten there w mag offense. I went 51-0 with a combo of mix offense and cloyster. I’ve of course gotten there w tss too. I believe my all time high is like 1920s sometime in mid 2023. It would be a lot more helpful to the laddering conversation if I recorded my teams and laddering sessions but I find using one team to get high on the ladder to be boring, I use a bunch of teams styles as I test stuff out, and then occasionally go on a long win streak and climb. Is it easier to go on a long win streak w SkarmGar sand, yeah probably, but it fluctuates. Sometimes the top of the ladder is testing weird stuff and you can’t win w Skarm gar as easily. I find laddering is as much about the player and who you queue against more than exactly what you’re using. Sometimes blues reads my soul over and over again using special offense for example.

Which goes back to ladder vs tournaments. In the last couple of months, I’ve really come back to the idea that ladder success isn’t as good of an arbiter of how good a Mon is playing against the best players in bo1 or bo3 tours. That drives me insane as someone who has laddered for 15 years. I used to farm people w forre on the ladder for example, but bringing it to tours against better competition fully focused is a hard way to win repeatedly. You see that in other mons too, medicham is another as roro mentioned above that has better results in tour than on ladder.

All this to say I don’t think ladder viability is the core way to define how good a mon is. I think VRs are a fun exercise about new ways to use a Mon to ultimately win more games. I’ve enjoyed reading fruhdazi’s, ABR’s, and McM’s VRs, as their takes on the meta and how to succeed are different than mine, and I can take what they write about to build new teams and have fun playing the game that way. At the same time, I think taking laddering as a science is admirable on your part, and I look forward to queuing against you (again probably) on ladder some day.

 

[Padeli]

I wanted to push back a little here bc of how rote you describe reaching the top echelons of the ladder is. I may not be in the upper crust any more, but I’ve been laddering adv for a long time. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts on how you reached 1900+. But there are a lot of ways to do it.

I’ve reached 1900+ with dug offense. I’ve gotten there w mag offense. I went 51-0 with a combo of mix offense and cloyster. I’ve of course gotten there w tss too. I believe my all time high is like 1920s sometime in mid 2023. It would be a lot more helpful to the laddering conversation if I recorded my teams and laddering sessions but I find using one team to get high on the ladder to be boring, I use a bunch of teams styles as I test stuff out, and then occasionally go on a long win streak and climb. Is it easier to go on a long win streak w SkarmGar sand, yeah probably, but it fluctuates. Sometimes the top of the ladder is testing weird stuff and you can’t win w Skarm gar as easily. I find laddering is as much about the player and who you queue against more than exactly what you’re using. Sometimes blues reads my soul over and over again using special offense for example.

Which goes back to ladder vs tournaments. In the last couple of months, I’ve really come back to the idea that ladder success isn’t as good of an arbiter of how good a Mon is playing against the best players in bo1 or bo3 tours. That drives me insane as someone who has laddered for 15 years. I used to farm people w forre on the ladder for example, but bringing it to tours against better competition fully focused is a hard way to win repeatedly. You see that in other mons too, medicham is another as roro mentioned above that has better results in tour than on ladder.

All this to say I don’t think ladder viability is the core way to define how good a mon is. I think VRs are a fun exercise about new ways to use a Mon to ultimately win more games. I’ve enjoyed reading fruhdazi’s, ABR’s, and McM’s VRs, as their takes on the meta and how to succeed are different than mine, and I can take what they write about to build new teams and have fun playing the game that way. At the same time, I think taking laddering as a science is admirable on your part, and I look forward to queuing against you (again probably) on ladder some day.

Yeah I totally agree that there's a huge variety of stuff that can work and that's definitely an argument against what I said - I don't mean to give the impression that what I think is absolute, the answer to this question is not clear at all imo! You're fs more experienced than me so I will absorb what you say... you're more than welcome to push back against what I said, I appreciate it

I think if we made a more controlled environment we could better figure it out - if we put say all the JI players or something, or like maybe 50-100 of the best players into a ladder, and told them you have to load 1 single team to try to hit the top vs all the other best players, what would they load?

That's maybe a better question to start with. I do totally think that in a scenario like that, a mega round robin if you will, the mons that reach the top few spots are generally the best in the tier, but maybe people would still disagree idk. OF COURSE, my hypothetical situation absolutely is not reflective of the actual ladder though lol! I make the important (/boring) 1 team assumption because it removes the ability to try to abuse a metagame trend on the ladder or abuse certain players you know are queueing, I'm trying to remove like external influences on what teams win if that makes sense; you mentioned that sometimes its more about who you're queueing into which is 100% true - if we force a pool of 100 strong players to only queue 1 team without prior knowledge about who they will face, I think that element goes away which is sort of what I'm trying to say in my other post if that makes sense. Maybe this scenario would be a more accurate version of what I was trying to say.

I think a fixed environment like that kinda strikes a balance between tournament viability/ladder viability maybe, it would be really cool to me, I would be extremely curious to see what all the best players build in a scenario like that. :D

Anyways thanks for responding to me! And just to be clear to anyone reading I'm not at all like trying to dismiss people's VR's or something, even if based on mainly tourney results, that in itself is of course extremely valuable, the opinions of the best players in general are to me and I download all of that info... e.g. I've watched McMeghan's VR videos over and over haha. I was just sharing my opinion as a ladder-only player who has thought a shit ton about all this stuff (to a very unhealthy extent lmao).

 

[SpamOn]

Been enjoying ADV for the last few months. Thought it would be fun to share some thoughts on the tier.

WARNING: My experience of playing the tier comes exclusively from laddering. I have hit rank 1, and gotten into top 10 with a bunch of different teams I made, but I have no tournament experience and so my rankings might reflect this.

Explanations:

S Rank

Tyranitar: Sand is amazing at limiting whatever your opponent is going to throw at you. Tar is obviously also a huge threat. DD wins so many games, even against good players, and I appreciate how it gives a team a win-con/out that can be played for even in dire situations. I normally just use DD-Tar over BKC as dropping one of HP bug or FP on BKC in favour of DD gives you a more flexible mon (DD-Punch is amazing).
Pursuit is powerful and I use it a decent amount, but it sometimes feels a bit limp into offence and random cheese.
Mixed sets can be amazing given good positioning and the fact your opponent has to respect your coverage. Especially given a good lead MU you often get to reveal 3-4 mons on their team as they dance around your coverage and limit their gameplan massively. However, you do suck into stall/Dug and so you need to cover this elsewhere.
Not a fan of CB. High ceiling but I don't want to rely on a slow(ish), choice-locked, spike weak mon with little reliable defensive utility given it cannot take more than 1 kill against stall before getting Dug-trapped (CB-Tar feels like it needs to be trading up to compensate for the defensive support it needs).

Skarmory: Obviously amazing and meta-defining. Best spiker and spikes limit the opponent and make progress. Can be tweaked with taunt, thief to fit teams pace and style. Not an easy mon to use optimally though, which is one of the great things about this Meta. Once 1 spike has been made, knowing when to spike again, toxic, protect, roar or switch out requires foresight and understanding.
The only reason it's not #1 for me is that, if you are relying on spikes for progress, it typically needs support to maintain layers from either a spinblocker or Pursuit-Tar pressuring spinners as otherwise one or more of Refresh-Dol/Starmie/Forre can just shut your down.

A+ Rank

Metagross: Does so much in a single slot. Checks Physical Tar, soft-checks near everything else with boom. Mash is broken and it feels like it raises twice as often as it misses.
Agility with lefties and boom is, IMHO, the best set. Probably the best end-game mon in the tier as it almost always trades up or sweeps in the endgame. As last mon, it can be a great sneaky win-con against fat teams if their bulky water is gone.
Similar to my opinion on BKC-Tar, vs DD-Tar, I generally prefer agility over bulky Protect sets as it gives you a far better potential win-con and endgame cleaner at the cost of a bit of bulk/longevity. You also notice the Mash misses a lot more compared to the raises with bulky sets.
CB is great but only fits on aggressive teams. The right boom wins you games.
Mixed is interesting but I think that CB is probably overall better on offence given that CB can spam Mash whilst Mixed often needs to lure/predict. Can still be good though, especially as a CM pass recipient.

Blissey: Again, does so much in a single slot - Walls almost all special attackers and soaks status. Basically incredible defensive security. Amazing movepool as well, meaning with the likes of Counter, T-wave, Sing, CM and coverage moves, it can often just screw over some proportion of what is "supposed" to beat it. Can also support the team with Wish and Aroma.
Does have some 4MSS problems at times though and, when building with it, it's important to ensure Blissey isn't going to be farmed for progress by physical attackers or trapped by bulky Dug since it can often be played very predictabley.

Jirachi: Broken. Genuinely think it should be banned as it robs games like nothing else. If you switch into a physical attacker on it, it will burn with Fire Punch.
Ranting aside, I think (specially) defensive Jirachi is as close as it comes to a special wall that can be used in place of Blissey. It is weak to fire and cannot soak status, but I think what it loses there it gains in terms of flexibility. Wish, Protect and its natural physical bulk mean it is way more difficult for physical attackers to abuse it. It is also less vulnerable to Dug if running Slam. Chip healing allows it to be played far less predictably than Blissey as it doesn't always feel forced to Wish to heal. As a result, it can status offensive mons trying to switch into it (or prevent them from doing so altogether). Wish is obviously also amazing at supporting team-mates.
Physically defensive sets are also kinda crazy in terms of being able to 1v1 Pert, BKC Tar and Meta. However, you often feel like you need another physically defensive rock-resist for DD-Tar and so I feel I might as well make Rachi specially defensive.
Offensive CM Jirachi sets are also incredibly annoying to fight as they can often hax their way to victory and have lots of potential coverage options you often have to play around. Admittedly these sets feel a little more inconsistent and need the right support, but SuperRachi can be an amazing late game cleaner and, in the right MU, bulky CM sets can 6-0.
Mixed feels like cheese but my god Dynamic Punch is horrifying to play against.

Swampert: Pert is just reliable and covers most physical attackers. I think pretty much all sets are good. I am especially a fan of bulky attacking sets with 4 attacks, HP and special attack investment as it can tear through certain teams whilst having the bulk to still stand up to Tar and Aero decently well. Curse is also good at providing an win-con for fatter teams that can support it whilst still having Pert be able to perform its main defensive role.

A Rank

Gengar: As well as spinblocking, Gengar is insanely versatile in both the builder and battles. I really value the fact that it can be EV'd to check a whole plethora of threats and the fact Wisp is so limiting for the opponent (even if it misses!). It also improves the overall MU spread of Spike teams since, with enough gaming, you can basically always outplay spinners with Gar. I tend to just stick to the standard move-set options but thinks like Focus Punch and trapping sets are also pretty interesting. Only reason it's not higher is that it only really fits on teams with spikes or special offence.

Celebi: Leech seed is amazing for providing balance and bulky offence with longevity. Complements physical and mixed attackers so well by punishing bulky waters. It is also insanely annoying for fat teams and one of the few things in the tier that can make me feel safe against Suicune (I rarely ever use <270 speed).
I generally prefer to use Leech + 3 attacks. Defensive sets are also great in some cases but have a tendency to get haxed due to needing to go through multiple recover loops, meaning they aren't that solid vs special attackers like OffMie and Gengar. They can also be Skarm food.
I think offensive CM sets are generally outclassed by SuperRachi due to it's better defensive typing and greater moveset options. Baton Pass sets are amazing in some match-ups and, even when they should get shut down by something like Rest-Zap, people have a tendency to misplay against these Celebi sets and not go straight into a phazer (particularly if you can disguise the fact you are a CM-Pass/SD Pass team).

Suicune: Hard mon to rank since it is punished by some of the format's central threats and therefore needs support. However, if there is anything in the tier worth giving the support to, it is this. Defensive sets can essentially be unkillable in the right MU and tend to win long games. Many teams have very little to threaten it directly. Obviously rest can be exploited and that's where the support has to come in (Trappers, Aroma). With weather reset, this becomes even more pronounced.
If I can fit Ice Beam elsewhere, I tend to like Roar on Defensive sets to provide phazing also deal with other CM Pokemon.
Offensive sets are also pretty cool and utilising them is one of the main reasons to use a team style like special offence. I like Sub sets as an alternative way to punish Blissey/Stall but max speed max special attack is also valid and can be a terrifying lead.
Sleep-talk sets seem pretty inconsistent but they can be amazing at punishing teams that rely on phazing Suicune to beat it.

Dugtrio: Should this be allowed? I will not go into this here but all I will say is that getting your lead trapped by this thing and feeling like you should forfeit turn 1 sucks.
In any case, Dug is obviously insanely powerful at enabling certain teammates. Dugtrio stall is one of the most consistent archetypes in the game and it is primarily enabled by this thing being able to just remove things like Hera, CB-Tar, Bulky CM Rachi that would otherwise just destroy it. The fact that bulky sets can trap Blissey for special offence is just the icing on the cake.
I don't really enjoy using this mon, but it impacts me in the builder enormously and, in particular, constrains things like spikeless balance so much due to not really being able to wear it down and not having the offence to punish it.
Obviously it has flaws and its choice locks can be punished, but it warps the metagame so much I felt I had to put it here.

Zapdos: Amazing at enabling offensive pokemon like fighters, CB Meta and Tar by inviting in passive special walls. Obviously also great with Dugtrio on Special offence. However, I am a bit down on Zapdos. Offensive sets are amazing in the lead, and Zapdos in general is great a 1v1ing and stat-checking a whole bunch of tier. However, it lacks a clear defensive niche and therefore feels pretty hard to fit onto teams sometimes as there are mons that often seem to solve more problems in the builder. It also tends to need to combo with other mons to make progress, be it Dug, spikers or physical attackers.
Defensive sets can be great. It is probably the best phazer in the tier and walls a load of mixed attackers. However, sand really limits its ability to wall special attackers and so it really needs support from either Aroma-Blissey or by trapping Tar with Dugtrio and clearing weather, which is a lot of investment.

A- Rank

Starmie: Huge fan of this Pokemon. Defensive sets, as well as providing rapid spin, status spreading and longevity combo really well with other natural cure users like Blissey and Celebi to provide a defensive core that is very difficult to wear down with indirect damage. Its speed and T-Wave allow it to check a lot of physical attackers. Its also a good switch into unrevealed Jirachi sets given it can shrug off status, break Substitute, live any attack and Thunder wave it, and this is a trait I really value given how dangerous Jirachi can be. The only downside is that it can sometimes struggle to Spin against pressure from Skarmory, Gengar and Pursuit-Tar. It often feels like it needs some support in this regard from something like a Pursuit Tar, but I think this is worth providing due to its other positive traits.
OffMie is also really fun to use. Absolutely cleaves through certain teams (physical/mixed offence) and is a pretty good win-con on teams that aim to eliminate Blissey. Only issue is that it is only really good a spinning once, and so your team needs to reflect this.
I have also used hybrid sets with Recover, Spin, Pump and Ice beam, having bulk and the speed and special attack needed to outspeed and 2HKO Gengar. I found this surprisingly effective set which catches a lot of people off guard (IB Mence when they think you don't have it).

Salamence: Perhaps not as big a fan of this as most. Not that I think it's bad. It just needs to be on the right team. In particular, Mixed on Bulky Offence or paired with Magneton.
The Mixed sets are the most viable (require little support) and pairs really well with strong physical attackers like Snorlax, Tar, Meta and Aerodactyl since it can hit the likes of Metagross, Swampert, Flygon as well as Blissey with which they are commonly paired. It therefore complements these attackers really well and provides Intimidate to allow these offensive structures to pivot around the opposing offensive threats and check fighters. However, I am not a big fan of mixed-Mence on balance. I don't think it provides enough in 1 slot due to being stopped by Suicune, Milo, DefZap, DefRachi and Blissey. Some of these problems can be alleviated by spikes but it still requires a lot of prediction to make progress against strong defensive cores, whilst also not really being fast enough to provide meaning speed control/revenge killing power. Finally, against many Special Offence/CM-spam teams, mixed Mence just feels completely ineffectual.
CB sets are really strong IMO. Obviously they require support from Mag and Wish, but I think they are really worth supporting since Mence provides breaking power whilst not being able to be easily trapped or worn down. It also has the defensive utility checking fighters whilst also stopping Cele-Pass.
DD Mence feels like it has a lot of roadblocks against common teams structures and so I haven't tried to make it work too extensively. I am open to changing my mind here though as it has obvious merits.
Wish-Mence sets are interesting, but very niche since Mence shouldn't really be used as a teams primary Wish user. There is definitely room for exploration here though and I have liked using such sets with Wish, Roar, Flame, D-Claw for a general utility mon with some offence.

Aerodactyl: I rate Aero pretty highly. It needs Spikes or to be paired with lots of other physical attackers to be offensively effective. However, even when struggling to make direct progress, it can often be useful in MUs by providing speed control preventing Cele-Pass. It also helps keep spikes up by threatening spinners out after they have KO'd your spinblocker.
CB sets can be prediction reliant but are very powerful in situations when spikes are down and you are up in the Pokemon count (allowing enough CB-Locks to KO all enemy mons) and so rewards keeping low health mons as sacks.
Sub-Leichi sets are more niche and generally only work on very offensive teams, but can be very strong at surprising the opponent and taking advantage of things like sleep.

Claydol: Weird mon. Not bad though. Spin, Psychic for Gar and Boom really cannot be bad. Struggles to both spin and take advantage of explosion but, in many cases, spinning might be all you need. Another Mon that soft-checks a lot of threats with boom. However, I think people tend to exaggerate it's utility beyond that (it's not like it can really switch many things that safely, it's just that not much can take advantage of it).
Refresh sets are useful if you are wanting to shut down Tox-Skarm, but it relies on giving up other tools.
I have seen people run all sorts of BS on this like HP-Fire, IB and Toxic, but I think Eq is kinda needed unless you are planning on Dugging Tar.

Magneton: Traps Skarmory and enables a lot of stuff. Not a big fan of Mag offence since a lot of the mons on those teams have common weaknesses (OffMie, Gengar). However, I think Mag balance with the likes of Suicune, Blissey, CB Mence, Meta, Skarm, Dol, Celebi, Milo, Dug are some of the most consistent teams in the tier. Also a nice mon to have into CB Meta.

B+ Rank

Charizard: A terrifying mon to face at times, and super fun to use. Against teams without Suicune/Milo it can be an amazing breaker. I also like the fact that can be played very aggressively and doesn't mind/actually likes losing hp. Genuinely better than Mixed-Mence in many circumstances as it has a much higher raw damage output. However, it doesn't have much defensive utility and needs to be on fast paced teams.
I generally run Blast and HP-Grass with either Sub + Punch, Beat-Up + Punch or D-Claw + Punch. Just make sure beat up isn't your only tool for Blissey.

Snorlax: I think Lax is decent in the current metagame. Has all its usual flaws but the teams that expose them aren't as prominent as perhaps they once were. I also think it can be effectively paired with mons like Celebi which help ensure Lax doesn't get overloaded by Special attackers.
Utility Lax can be a great trader on offence. It normally wants support from a trapper to help narrow down its switch-ins and better punish them. I am also a big fan of Counter+Punch if you can fit - even if your opponent see it coming, it can be very hard to play around.
I also think Curse Lax has potential. I know it's a bit of a Marmite Pokemon and requires a lot of support, but it absolutely destroys a lot of fat teams and even dropping one of Sand or Spikes makes this thing immediately hard to deal with. Also, weather clear strategies already have a great abuser in Suicune so it's not like your have to be all in on Lax.

Moltres: Difficult to fit, but amazing at what it does. With a Modest nature, basically the only thing that stands up to it long term is Blissey (Wisp into Milo on the switch-in can leave it vulnerable to HP-Grass after any prior chip). Some teams have no way of dealing with it at all. With Spikes support is an absolute menace. It compliments bulky physical attackers like Tar and Meta really well by forcing in Blissey for them and also chipping bulky waters like Suicune. It also does well as a long term progress maker on superman teams, often with Rest and Aroma Support for longevity.
The main issue with Molt is that it is threatened hugely by a lot of common Mons and status and even things like Skarm, Celebi or Meta that it uses as entry opportunities can damage a fair bit or toxic it on switch in. It can also feel like it's a bit slow-paced for some MUs as it needs time to break past the likes of Mixed-Mence, Tyranitar, Suicune and opposing fire types.

Milotic: Very 1 dimensional but good at what it does - wall things. Important for certain fat/stall teams and has a few techs (Mirror coat/Hypnosis) to make it a bit faster paced, but fundamentally it's there to sponge status, wall mixed attackers and a good deal of other stuff too. Only really fits on slow paced teams but does a fine job on them.

Flygon: Defensive Flygon is a good alternate physical Tar check, but very passive into common mons like Skarm, Gar, Refresh Pert and so typically needs Mag support or to be on a Superman team. Great into players who rely too much on Spikes to enable threats like Aero and Tar, but not as good into other physical threats like Mence or Meta as Swampert is, so needs more support defensively also.
I actually like OffGon. Has a lot of roadblocks, but it can actually be amazing against offence, especially with Paralysis support and Sub. I used it on a team with SuitTar, a fighter to beat down Skarm and a bunch of Paralysis spreaders like DefRachi and DefMie and it often went crazy in endgames, bringing back games that seemed lost so often.
I have not tried CBGon. Seems like a version of CBMence with less power/coverage but sand immunity. Checks Tar over Fighters. Seems worse overall but idk.

Jolteon: Probably seems like a decently high Jolt placement, and I think this is partly a complement to my relatively low Zap placement. Unlike Zap. I feel like Jolt has a more clear defensive niche of being able to check fast special attackers like Gar, Zap and Starmie. Overall worse stats but the speed does make a huge difference and it does give it real value in most MUs. Also Roar and BP are just generally useful tools.
Jolt spikes team have the same problems as always against Claydol and, whilst this can be compensated for by teammates to a degree (Peck Skarm & Gar), it does often feel like an uphill battle. However, I think Jolteon is under-appreciated on Special Offence and Mixed Offence. It is an amazing CM-Pass receiver as it also has BP and the fastest Roar in the tier. It also helps to cover the over-reliance on mons like Lax to check special threats on Mixed Offence whilst being a good late-game cleaner itself.

B Rank

Heracross: Who doesn't love the bonk beetle. This thing has breaking potential like not much else in the tier and is an important tool for keeping greedy fat teams in check.
I am a big fan of Sub-Punch sets. They feel the most consistent with the right support as they don't just get immediately Dugged. SD 3 Attack sets and CB are also interesting but I honestly don't think this thing needs the extra power, it needs to avoid getting trapped. Sub-Salac with weather clear sets can be crazy, and I think would be ban worthy if Tar didn't exist, but alas it does and so it needs the right conditions to thrive. There is also the Megahorn lottery issue also.

Medicham: Very frail so it generally has to be led. There is can win games in a few turns with the right clicks, but if this fails to get immediate value it also can fall flat on it's face a bit since, even after minimal chip, it basically dies to a light breeze and it's not really that fast.
Endure Salac Reversal sets are powers but, like with Salac-Hera, they need support.

Raikou: Still underrated IMO. Probably should be OU. It's a crazy pokemon when Dug isn't around and, being the fastest CM user in the tier, it has huge sweeping potential. Many teams are very close to getting 6-0 by this thing given that many checks like Tar and Meta are liable to getting chipped. It can also beat Blissey often with hax or if it gets a CM head-start.
Still inconsistent and so it is typically found on CM spam teams with lots of other inconsistent special sweepers. However, it feels like recently we have seen this thing used of loads of different styles successfully liked Mixed Offence and Stall.

Venusaur: Very Underrated. It's a great alternative to leech + 3 attacks Celebi on some teams. It has worse natural bulk but sleep, better defensive typing and roar if you need it. Incredible at annoying stall given Dug cannot trap it and also using sleep to disrupt and reverse the opponents momentum. Make it fast (270+), give it some bulk to live Ice Beams in overgrow and dump the rest in Special attack and it will do you well. I hit my highest ever elo rank (1849) with this together with Sub-Liechi Aero (https://pokepast.es/1d0fbfeab3921666)

Breloom: A bit more 1 dimensional than the other fighters but Spore is amazing. Kinda needs pursuit support or to run HP-ghost, which means dropping another important option. I feel like Focus Punch is needed Breaking power, Sky Uppercut/Brick for immediate damage. Mach Punch is also incredible as it's one of the few things in the tier giving you some good insurance against DD-Tar and it allows you to "cheat" somewhat in the builder as a result. Still, Sub-Seed, Stun Spore, Toxic and SD are all things you can probably try. SD is something I actually want to try myself since Spore + SD + Mach punch sounds insane in late game situations.

C+ Rank

Forretress: Maybe one of my more controversial placements. I don't think Forre teams are good. At least not on the ladder. You just face too much wacky offence for a team with 2 mons in Forre and Suit-Tar which don't feel like they contribute hugely in many of these MUs. Even against other spike teams it often feels like you need to win a lot of SuitTar-Gar mind games and even if you trap them, they can live and apply enough offensive pressure to effectively win before you have eliminated Gar and their spikes.
There is also the massive inflexibility issue these teams have; given Forre demands lots of support and then has to jump out of the way of anything that has a strong attack, it feels like you kinda need wish Blissey and Pert as Forre can also be set up bait for physical attackers. It feels like there is always a huge informational disadvantage.
I might be wrong about this, and it seems like some other players do have success with it on ladder. I have just tried hard to make it work with little success and I am jaded by it. I think double spinner is the way to go, since it massively reduces the inflexibility problem and allows Forre to utilise its better qualities in the fact that it can pressure common spinners with HP-Bug to maintain spikes.
I also suspect it's a better pick in tournaments where people will bring more conservative and consistent team styles.

Gyarados: Unique Mon. Seems a little fishy at times (no pun intended). Has to chose between hitting Zap/Aero, Defensive Celebi or Gar and sometimes lacks the raw damage output to get it done. However, it is really good at spreading T-Wave on important targets and Taunt sets can get some amazing match ups. Probably need more experience with it though so take this with a pinch of salt.

Regice: Actually great but only on very specific teams. Bolt-Beam + Boom is just a great set of tools for offence and, in particular, special offence. Also completely shuts down Zap-Dug. Kinda hates sand though. I have run Rain Dance + Thunder on it and it was surprisingly good since it could break Milo often and also set up for sweepers like Kingdra.

Kingdra: Great sweeper/late game cleaner on Special Offence. Turns the tables on a lot of other endgame mons like DD-Tar and Aero. Also clears weather which can enable a lot of other broken stuff like Salac Hera. Strong, but only on certain teams.

Smeargle: The standard Spore+Spikes Smeargle feels pretty inconsistent, especially in the lead - feels more effective in the back like with the classic Salac Vaporeon lead for example. In any case, sleep is just strong so you kinda have to respect it. I also think DD-Pass sets are strong and often feel kinda broken/toxic to play against - they result in pretty stupid mind games with DD vs Spore and Taunt vs BP and if you guess wrong you can just lose on the spot. Overall its niche but you have to respect its toolkit - I am sure it can do more than we currently see.

C Rank

Hariyama: Has amazing qualities but, similar to Forre, I struggle to make it work because it introduces too much inflexibility in the builder and requires too much support to get the best out of out it. Feel like it needs Wish, Tar for Sand, a spinner and another physical wall/Tar check. Then you end up with a team that relies on Yama too much for progress (get frozen by a Bliss IB and you are cooked). This inflexibility means a lot of Yama teams that I see have some issue (fighters, certain Suicune sets, lack of Phazing) that make them auto-lose in certain MUs or get overrun by offence.
Also, I don't think Knock Off does the work that many Yama advocates claim it does - smart players don't just let their Skarm get knocked and, if they are able to Wish up/heal their knocked off mon faster than Yama (which often needs Wishes itself) is able to force it in and damage it, it doesn't really make progress.
Again, these issues might be way more pronounced on the ladder with loads of offence running around - there is no doubt that Yama can be incredible in the right conditions and does do better into a lot of more standard and consistent teams.
One thing I will say for this mon is that, if you can fit Rock Slide for Zap, it does make a great lead.

Jynx: Almost always does something useful in the lead slot, be it sleeping something, trapping Bliss or setting up for Dug to trap Tar and clear weather. However, I think Jynx teams do feel a bit telegraphed at this point, always being some very offensive combo of Boom-spam and special threats. They also seem to struggle into Skarm. Will have to experiment more though as it has cool tools.

Cloyster: Struggle to find teams where this thing is genuinely better than Skarm, even if they are super offensive. Still, Spikes + Spin + Boom is great and so it will always be something you try fit onto teams.

Porygon2: Often feels like there is a pace mismatch between P2 and the threats it is trying to enable. This is a shame as P2 is definitely not a bad mon in a vacuum, and it is always nice to screw over Dug. There will probably always be a place for this on certain structures.

Ninjask: What more is there to say - stupid little fly. I think this thing should be banned just cause of what it does to the game. I also think this is stronger than what a lot of people give it credit for.
Most Jask teams you see on the ladder are pretty fishy, but I think this mon is pretty under-explored. I think there are better ways of using it than just leading it and hoping your opponent doesn't have the right phazers, but building these teams will require brain power, which most Jask players don't have. Having a 2 mon Jask+1 core in your team or having a bunch of mons that benefit from getting just +1 speed (making Jask harder to phaze) seem like better more flexible ways to use Jask on a team. I will definitely try this one day if it isn't ousted beforehand.

Marowak: Great speed pass recipient or Paralysis abuser. Hits hard but doesn't really have much use beyond that given it has no longevity.

Houndoom: I like this mon as it feels like it has a really solid niche as a Pursuit user that can punish Celebi/Jirachi and doesn't make sand. Enables things like Curse-Lax and Fighters really well. Guess it just depends on how much you like the teams it fits on, but I think they are genuinely solid. Also has a good movepool with like Beat-Up, Taunt, Wisp and Roar to screw over Cele-Pass. A surprising amount of teams can struggle to switch in against this (similar to Molt), but it does die to a light breeze on the physical side.

Donphan: An amazing rock resist and physical wall. Only reason to use it over Pert is Spin given its bad special bulk and worse overall typing so it needs huge support against Gar + Skarm. Forre/Mag + Donphan + Pursuit is a lot to fit. It can be great if you provide it.

Dragonite: I am a Dragonite believer. I think Heal Bell has huge potential and does give it a meaningful niche over Mence on some teams (plus different coverage options). Give it a try and you will be surprised. Use it in place of something like DD-Refresh Mence since it has better natural bulk to DD twice (lives Bliss/Pert IB a lot easier) and provides better support for teamates.

D rank

Glalie: Not convinced by traditional Glalie spikes offence since, whenever you face the wrong leads, it feels like you have a huge mountain to climb. Have used in combo with Dug+Weather clear for the Tar Lead and it seemed pretty good - you generally either make spikes or remove their Tar with boom into Dug which feels like it makes Glalie a more consistent opener. It's still a Glalie however.

Blaziken: Open to having my mind changed but I am not sure I would use this over other fighters or mixed attackers. Just feel like other things do its job better. Will come back to it though as Blaziken is cool.

Armaldo: Useful as a Knock user/Lax counter on Stall. Very specific but I respect it.

Machamp: Maybe under-rating this but, I am not convinced by it. Feels like Yama without knock off. Can obviously pop-off in certain games though.

Umbreon: Another interesting one. I think there are good Umbreon teams, but whenever I use/face it, I feel like it just invites all the tier's scariest threats in. Probably another one not suited for the ladder.

More Random Rambling

Alakazam: I think this has huge potential. Encore with base 120 Speed is a great tool. Can clean a lot of games up as well with Spikes support due to having great coverage. Just very hard to fit due to being frail.

Ursaring: A hilarious mon to use as it has such a ridiculous damage output with SD or CB. Guts also provides a nice way to soak status. Needs to be paired with Para/Speed Pass and Mag and you probably end up with a team that is too all in on the bear. Will return to it though, even just for a laugh.

Banette: Another fun mon to use from the Jimothy discography. Maybe too limited by its stats but it can definitely put in work. Hitting R1 with Banette would be a life goal achieved.

 

[giraffefromholland]

In preparation for the team dump I'm planning on making following JI, I've made a VR to synthesize my new framework in the builder, as I've tried to test the boundaries of what I understand to incorporate new looks. Seeing as I won't be sharing my best stuff quite yet, while my builder is more or less ready to share, I would like to start somewhere and have decided to make this post. I don't intend to discuss my thoughts on every mon in depth, but I would like to share some broader ideas and maybe the story behind what I was looking for with these mons this time around.

For me, viability is a combination of splashability and quality of fit. I'm not raising a mon based on how warping it is in a meta. If a mon warps a tier, that is already included in my evaluation of its quality of team without me having to include an evaluation of its centralization, for the simple fact that its strategies are successful, spammable, and will be accounted for in the metagame and the builder. I'm not interested in the future or past evaluation of a mon; whether people prepare for a certain set of Breloom or Charizard in the future is irrelevant to its current-day success. If a mon does not survive the metagame adapting to it, that is evidence that its 'meta-warping' has rendered it less viable and less interesting to use. If a mon thrives in the meta that has adapted to it, then I think it should be used more, and specifically thinking about how it warps a tier would result in double-counting. I would also like to add that I consider the highest qualities of a mon to be being able to beat its counters (from realizable HP ranges), being able to (e.g.) trade to support other mons in beating their counters, and being able to prevent other mons from being traded out by offering defensive decompression. This means I have a somewhat high evaluation of moves like Endeavor, Recover, Wish, Leech Seed, Explosion, Sleep moves, and Roar (with Spikes); and I have a somewhat lower evaluation of pokemon that rely more on match-up division to overcome more serious limitations in trading (e.g. Cro Cune requiring Zap support, Jirachi struggling vs Dugtrio, Gyarados as a whole etc.).

I will attempt to provide reasonable ranges and give insight into where I think these mons fit on a VR relative to other Pokemon.

S

1-2
I think my S1 tier is fairly uncontroversial, and as such, I don't care to defend the placements at length. Spikes, and Skarmory in particular, gets an edge against the bulky grounded backbone mons of the tier, simplifying game plans for nearly every mon. Sand does something similar. I can go back and forth on which one is better between the two, but offense is defense, and Skarmory doesn't threaten KOs like Tar does, so it needs more support. It's interchangeable with or inferior to other Spikers on certain comps while Tar is irreplaceable. I particularly like what Sand does to Zapdos, Blissey, and Suicune (and also Snorlax, and Milotic), and what phys Tar does to the ground and water types of the tier. I consider those interactions among the most significant in the tier because of all the mons that naturally partner with Tar's offensive profile. Sand vs Sandless is quietly the fundamental theoretical discussion in ADV, followed by Spikes vs Spikes defense (Spin, Flygon, Mag, etc.), for the simple fact that some mons are able to thrive without Tyranitar on their team and will play very a different game against Sand as opposed to Sandless comps. I'm thinking of Suicune, Blissey, and friends here, mostly, which is a small subsection of the tier, but I'm also quite high on those mons and their teams and therefore highly respect the advantages one can aim for by including Sand in counter strategies.

3-4
If you know me, you'll know I have Pert in S as an auto-include most months in the year. I respect DD Tar, Aerodactyl, and Agility Metagross as much as anyone, and I think packing a water type for Mix Mence is sensible. I have been significantly lower on Milotic, Suicune, and Flygon for their weaknesses against physical overload, and it's taken me awhile to really appreciate those mons, but even as I have, they still can't do what Pert can do for DD Tar, Aerodactyl, Mence, and Agility Metagross offensively -- or even other special attackers -- which sets Pert apart for me.

Max SpA Hydro Pump significantly damages Skarmory and smacks Zapdos for solid damage. I was previously a Curse 3 Attacks truther, out of fear of getting fished (heh) by the fringe defensive Starmie set and appreciating the pressure into Milo as well, but that set doesn't quite cut it for me on most teams. Off Pert strongly appreciates a solid rock resist partner or two, and I now prefer Tect Pert where I'm slotting only one rock resist. I still build somewhat conservatively in my approach to handling Starmie (as I mass build for more general use on ladder and in tour), but I've replaced my Curse 3 with Mono (typically where supported) and End Pert. I originally chose Mono Pert as a Blissey check on Suit Tar+Aero Spikes and other builds. I liked how Tect gave it longevity without demanding Spin on balanced builds, but I especially liked the consistency of Roar or Toxic in being able to stick it extra hard to Blissey while maintaining pressure against stall, and I still favor that approach on TSS builds, using Ice Beam where necessary for Mence (next to Hydro/Surf and EQ).

I found myself also appreciating End Pert on a lot of (Spikeless) Sand builds as a water type that maintains offensive momentum, defensive utility, and trading power next to Tyranitar. It holds (and gains) value on Sand unlike all other waters, which makes it an excellent partner for DD Mence, Agility Metagross, and Aerodactyl -- more on this later -- including in luring all Recover-using mons to all but guarantee a trade or two. I love Toxic on End Pert, especially without Sand/Spikes, and Roar with Sand/Spikes. I respect the Focus Punch set, especially for being able to slot +252 Hydro Pumps which (almost/somtetimes) halves Skarms HP, but I don't generally spam the mon in the builder because I think it's less plug-and-play against Recover mons -- it doesn't beat its counters like End Pert, which is necessary for the mons I think pair best with Pert. I don't see myself coming down on this mon, and I can see it as high as 3rd, but no lower than 4th with my current understanding of Blissey and Metagross not permitting me to place them higher.

3-4
I did these out of order because Zapdos is kind of new to me here, and I feel like it is less intuitive currently to place in S for a lot of people than the previous three. Pert, I feel, is an easier sell for 3rd, if not S, but I'd like to call your attention to Zapdos. Rest and Agility (Pass) Zap have been something of a revelation for me. I used to think every team needed a revenge killer that doubled as a heavy breaker in order to smash through Blissey teams -- because how else would you go blow-for-blow against Blissey with all the dangerous revenge killers and heavy hitters that slotted next to it if your guaranteed method of outspeeding them thuds into Blissey only to be shrugged off? -- but I feel like Zapdos has enough tricks and partners that can offset the mediocre match-up into its counters that its worth discussing.

First of all, I will say that I have loved and respected Zapdos as a mon almost sense the beginning of my Pokemon journey. Back around SPL XII, I was slotting Rest Zap on every team I could fit a Zap on, and felt that it was better in Gengar's slot on big 5 and Forre comps for its ability to check mixed attackers and waters comfortably -- before abandoning it in favor of more progressive approaches after realizing Rest Zap without Hidden Power sucked into ground types too hard. I have consistently (over)prepared for Zapdos in the last few years with the general notion of wanting two special checks to handle ZapDug shenanigans in particular, but also Zap+Pert/Cune, and that ultimately resulted in me favoring a certain common 6 just before SPL a few years ago (while labbing the 6 behind the scenes in preparation for pkLeech's SPL) with different techs (lead dual status Ice Zap, DD Tar, Taunt WoW IP Tbolt Gar, Curse Pert, and Taunt Tox Skarm) and looking to cheat with strategies that involved trading (lead) Zapdos with Zapdos by Twaving (or occasionally Tbolting) in the mirror. Obviously, people don't lead Zapdos as much as before, so this is more wishful thinking, but outside of rare comps like this one, which uses speed, pressure, and tempo to compensate for special weaknesses, I generally think one should bring two or more Zap+Cune checks on every team -- one of which should be well equipped to absorb attacks, and the other equipped to pressure, or some combination of these traits. Until now, I've mostly been afraid of a general offensive Zapdos with Thunder Wave and/or Toxic and Hidden Power -- particularly on Spikes. But now, I have a slightly different concept of what the most dangerous Zapdos sets are.

Off Zap is nice on Spikes if you can support it well. As mentioned before, I wanted something that could push through Blissey in my bird slot, and that's because I viewed speed control through that lens. I don't consider that mentality an outdated perspective; just one in need of nuance. As such, I don't view Off Zap (on Spikes) a serious solo threat, generally, because I think it usually wants Aero behind it. That optimizes as EC, which I respect as one of the most dangerous teams in the tier. Sand, Spikes, Aero, Zap, and Gar all one one team is a hell of a lot of anti-stall offense, and it's one of the three most centralizing comps at the moment for my money, especially with Hclat's brilliant Taunt/Giga Drain wrinkle bringing the team together nicely against Swampert and Claydol. I respect dropping Gengar for other special checks, provided very specific techs, but the Gar fit outclasses the others for my money. However, my understanding that this was the most dangerous set Zap had to offer had me viewing Zap as a B-tier Pokemon.

Recently, I've found Rest Zap to be particularly important, and it's (Zapdos) replaced Blissey in my evaluation as the best special check in the tier. In the first place, Zap slots on EC (and adjacent comps) and on Mag Off nicely. In keeping with my 2-Zap/Cune (special) checks rule, I viewed Tar+Bliss as the premier SpD pairing, but now that I'm appreciating the power of Sandless ADV, I think (Rest) Zap is really the secret sauce on most of these comps. Snorlax does a lot of heavy lifting on (Mag) offense. Zapdos can shoulder the burden significantly better than any other special check, for the simple fact of its dominant match-up against steels, flyers, and waters, which outclasses Celebi -- its primary competitor. It carries Celebi on special and Spikes offenses. It also holds up SpD Jirachi, and can slot next to Registeel (on Spikes) to cover for weaknesses. It slots next to Blissey on Sandless (and Sand) builds similarly well. It doesn't beat Snorlax or have Recover, which must be compensated, but what it does well is check Skarmory, solo Gengar (without Ice Punch and out of Sand), absorb Meteor Mashes, and eat fire-type coverage for days, while pressuring the most dangerous waters in the tier. It also sits on Milo on v5, which is huge value. The set that really changed my evaluation was Rest/Tbolt/HP (Grass)/Roar. I was inspired by a conversation a few months ago on Cord where Vapicuno and some others were discussing the best Rest Zap sets, and it slowly became one of the most important sets in my builder. This set needs only Tyranitar chunked to terrorize the Aero Spikes build of the current day, since Aero doesn't naturally slot Blissey, Rapid Spin, or Recover Celebi with Mag, and one is able to divide match-ups against Blissey teams with either Pert, a Toxic user, CM, Tyranitar, or some other method of keeping Blissey off-balance.

On the subject of CM, I find Agility Pass Zap is a great partner on offense for the same reason. It beats those Aero teams similarly convincingly, especially if you bring Ice Beam Cune to trade out opposing Zapdos and/or Celebi, using +2 Spe to beat Aero as well. Those teams were built to beat Blissey using CM (Jirachi, Suicune, Raikou, etc.) or phys mons (Agility Metagross, DD Brick Mence, etc.) in the first place, so breaking around Blissey is just fine, allowing for clever match-up division, which I generally do not appreciate with other mons. It helps CM to beat Aero and Dug, and it's a positive add to the tier as is. I think it's healthy at the moment on these kinds of comps, and I think there is counterplay, but we will see where this goes. Roar+Agility+BP is definitely degenerate, as is Taunt+Speed pass, but I think you should be able to build to support a Bliss endgame and pha(z)ing against Zap Speed Pass, absent full chain degeneracy (Taunt, Roar, Sand Attack, etc.). Sub Pass can perform a similar role against Aero Spikes, but I prefer it with bulkier set up that doesn't mind Dugtrio, but also prefers the extra turn of set up to speed. It's the same set, in my mind, with some minor differences, and I prefer the speed control atm.

Zapdos fulfills a million roles at a high level, and helps literally every other SpD mon in the tier to shine in a way that they couldn't do alone, outclassing every other duo in their ability to net an advantage against everything else in the tier (bar Zap itself and Lax, in the case of Celebi, Tyranitar, and sometimes Jirachi) and has got people thinking that these lower-tier SpD mons are more viable than they actually are. As of now, Zap>Blissey, and it isn't particularly close.

A

3-6
I explored Blissey Sandless somewhat. I don't think this mon absolutely needs Spikes, but it is helped significantly by them. Next to Registeel, it's the only non-Zap special check I trust without Spin, Mag, or Zap and the only non-Zap special check I trust with Tyranitar. Celebi just isn't it. Blissey can make Celebi look good, too, but Celebi doesn't really give so much back, in my opinion, as its offensive sets don't slot well next to Blissey, and its defensive sets don't claim such a huge advantage. Zapdos has its place in my mind for fit reasons, but this mon is the true heavy-lifter of the two. It almost necessitates Spikes' inclusion, which is why I couldn't put it in S -- that and, the fact that Zapdos unlocks so many more mons than it does, in my understanding.

I'm using Wish next to Cune if I'm going Spikeless, 99% of the time. I prefer Sandless fits with Spikes, but I think it unlocks BKC Tar, and next to Jolteon, it's the only SpD mon that can support a CB Tar sufficiently, which nets it huge value, since phys/Focus Punch Tar gets an advantage against many standard defensive comps. I think my Zap/Skarm/Mag/Bliss/Pert/Aero comp holds up, but I prefer Lefties Tect on Mag and/or Tect on Pert and HP Grass>Sleep Talk on Zap. Rain Dance also makes a lot of sense on Mag there. That is probably my favorite SkarmMag at the moment. I initially chose Zap to patch the Mix Mence, Gar, and Zard weaknesses, while also shielding Pert and Skarm from waters and Metagross, and I think that team is still phenomenal into the current meta. I don't think I can tell the story of Blissey without telling the story of Zapdos, so please, please, please do read what I said about Zapdos above if you have not. I'm pretty sure this mon belongs just behind Pert, and rarely have it lower for more than a brief moment. I think I can only realistically place Metagross and just maybe Salamence above it, with my most optimistic evaluations of those two and a less optimistic perspective of Blissey, but as it's Rest Zap's best partner, after Spikes, I don't think I can ever have it behind Salamence without a change in my understanding of the tier. Maybe Bliss deserves A1 all by itself, but the fact that it needs the support of a second special check to truly unlock its full potential and that it is relatively exploitable compared to others makes it difficult for me to place it in S.

6-8
I don't know how to rate it. I feel like it overlaps with Zap as a Dug/Aero beater, and the lack of serious defensive utility hampers it. I like Mix Mence as a DD Mence and BKC Tar check, among there more standard OU threats, and I will use Dragon Claw (and/or Rock Slide) wherever I need something more for Zapdos. I like it as a Skarmory check, and I have viewed it as a Pert-in, but I don't consider HP Grass to be a particularly synergistic move on the mon, because I don't believe in trading your speed to support something like DD Tar, which trades its HP so quickly and hates being statused too much to consistently close games out. It does pair well with Agility Metagross, but how many teams can you build with Tar (a necessary Pert lure), Mence, Agility Metagross, Pert (or Dol), and two last mons? How good are they? I fell out of love with DD Mence at some point, because I didn't believe in a mon that was walled by everything on Beerlover with HP investment or at 100%. I didn't enjoy phys Mence on Spikes, because it never felt like those teams were consistently sturdy and capable of trading out Mence's counters and checks. But I also was running out of Spikeless Mence teams to build, since it's hard to consistently lure SkarmPert, among other counters, into range for DD Mence, and it's not particularly good at hit-and-run before Skarm is low, especially considering it needs its HP to set up at some point and doesn't blanked check any standard OU mons. So I went looking for a better set.

I had previously looked to Mag balances and offenses to solve some of the bulkier defensive teams in OU, and ended up finding Mag+DD BB Mence was the most consistent approach, with some comps I built for CI6 and dumped later. I felt like you could afford to play Mence as a last mon on a 5+1, since you could fit bulkier pieces that mu divided against Blissey. I still have this approach in the back of my mind, but I still wanted a Mence set that could pivot AND sweep, and settled on DD/HP Flying/Brick Break/Fire Blast, which I shared previously. I was looking at other ways to net an edge with DD Mence, and looked at sets without HP Flying (and later, without Rock Slide, since chipping Aero and luring Zap into +1 Brick range is doable), which Fruhdazi has dubbed 'Penguin Mence' (and I call DD BBQ [BrickBreakQuake] Mence), but the most splashable is the Mixed DD set. Brick beats Tar and Bliss, while Fire Blast means it's not dead weight against Skarm. There are some clear tradeoffs for losing Rock Slide AND Earthquake: Aerodactyl, Zapdos, and SpD Jirachi can counter it, and Metagross and Salamence need to chunked or handled more slowly or differently. But Brick Break Mence has really strong partners in Lax, Metagross, and Suicune, among others, which get the job done well enough. It enables them to function at their highest heights, and it's also still capable of sweeping with slightly less specific support, while porting to Spikes, Sand, and Sandless styles alike. BBQ likes anti-Dol, and of course you prefer to match-up divide against Flygon, but the combination of all coverage options minus HP Flying means not conceding ground to Metagross, Jirachi, or Blissey on the same set, and EQ only loses out on 5 BP as compared to STAB against Pert and Milo. The other major tradeoff is obviously needing to land Rock Slide against Gengar and lacking a midground, but the return is having more win states and unlocking certain looks for Kou, fighters, and Tyranitar.

I feel like it does tread on Zap's toes a little bit, but the level of versatility it has puts it above Cune and Meta for me, now, especially as it slots next to Spikes more naturally than those two. I think the ability of DD Fire Blast to pivot is a valuable add, which has revived an old theory of mine that the major sources of advantage in ADV come from Cune, Zap, and Mence.

5-7
I like Mixed Meta with Agility Pass Zapdos, Suicune, and DD BB FB Mence. I've shared a set with Mash, Tpunch, HP Grass, and boom, which can similarly sweep Aero Spikes to Agili Pass Zap, but it can also lure the mons into range of Zap. Also good at luring Dol. CB Meta is also good. Agility is probably my next and least favorite set among the spammable sets, because I think it absolutely demands another serious Pert/Milo lure, which only consistently comes in the forms of (phys) Tar and the Regis (or Weezing lol) as far as I can tell, though I suppose there are some special attackers that could lure Pert with Spikes. Agility is great, but difficult to support, and dropping boom is a kick in the pants when facing Cune teams, since Tar will often face Dol, and Meta is sometimes difficult to lure with Sand teams.

7-8
Cune is good next to Meta or CB Rock, who can fulfill a similar function, and wants one of Zap or Mence (or sometimes, Dug). Sub sets are usable (without Spin), but want weather clear and specially-slanted offense or Mag. Match-up dividing Sandless with Sub and building to beat Sand without clearing weather is also an interesting concept I've explored.

8-13
I was so high on this mon a minute ago, because its versatility is second only to Tyranitar. It fits on just as many teams as Zapdos, but the fact that it's Dug weak means that its SpD sets can only be second best. Not a problem against Dug stall when you have Rest Zap to stuff Milo, but it's also hard to fit proper Bliss checks without Tar, which is asynergistic with Rest Zap, so that must be considered. SpD Jira also doesn't make much sense next to Blissey. Fear does, though, and I don't think it's impossible to slot -- just that you want Blissey, Rest Zapdos, Spikes, and one of Spin or Flygon next to it, which is fairly restrictive. It also suffers from Dugtrio. Mix Jirachi and Sub CM Jirachi are very splashable on Spikes and Spikeless respectively, and can slot on Spikeless and Spikes respectively as well. CM 3 wants Agility (or Sub) Pass. The grounded nature of this mon and lack of defensive heavy-lifting makes it hard for me to say that there's any truly optimal Jirachi Spikes build, considering the tradeoffs involved in slotting Spin AND Sand or any other optimal support structure next to it, but the upside is immense; significant enough for me to consider Jirachi a serious threat on Spikes builds worth supporting, if somewhat compromised against Dugtrio to the extent of demanding match-up division.

This is another mon that Zapdos makes shine. It's in A because of its universal splashability, but it's not unreasonable to feel that its fits are awkward enough to slot it in high-B tier, behind Aero or Gengar -- and even Snorlax, which I'm high on.

8-13
This guy snuck into A because I like the way it supports Forre, Cloy, and offense. It fits on literally everything, but the ability to unlock some new Sandless Cloy and Forre comps have really sold me. Shout out ABR for innovating with Forre Sandless -- truly one of the most impressive contributions of last year. I'm also not really convinced by SkarmDol lately, outside of v5, because it feels extremely awkward to replace Dugtrio on those teams. It's hard to fit something to help with grounded, heavy breakers -- like Snorlax in particular. Sand+Blissey+Spin feels wasteful, outside of something like Tar/Skarm/Star/Bliss/Rest Zap/Pert (in my coming dump; s/o Clat for originally using the 6), Asta's Tar/Skarm/Dol/Bliss/Meta/Mence (probably with modern techs), and the occasional Forre Suit Tar build (also with Zap or maybe Jira). I have looked at Regirock there, but I'm not entirely convinced, and Mag and Metagross, too, which places a serious demand on slots, but is doable and in part responsible for my high evaluation of Dol. Ignoring Snorlax or ceding ground to Skarmory is the usual tradeoff, but Thief on Skarm or double Spin helps some of those issues.

I think it could be high-B, since I'm not sure that it deserves to be placed above Jirachi, but the immense splashability and broader defensive utility makes me feel like it should be at least above Gengar for now and probably also Aero, but it feels weird to place such a do-nothing mon so high. Based on team-quality alone, however, it is deserved.

B

10-13
This guy is actually quite nice next to Zapdos, and has a lot of cool utilities. Focus Punch is nice when you don't have another solid Zap check or a clear means to benefitting from booming into Tar. My Curse 3 set has seen some tournament success. I've been looking at Curse/Dedge/Sball/Boom, among other sets, which I will share with my dump. It has the upside of bluffing Curse 3, destroying Sandless without Meta (or Jira), and being able to boom into Jira/Meta/Tar for weather clear. I love this guy again. One of the few 'proper' Zap ins, next to Bliss, Steel, and Jolt, among spammable mons. I really like Dol and Mag offenses lately, and I think it can also fit next to other Spinners (Forre+Spin, Cloy+Spin, Starmie) and justifies the inclusion of Spin like few other mons. I do not think it is worth using this mon with Sand, though I respect the Suit Tar/SpD Jira/CroCune team that has been making the rounds. S/o whoever made that. Also s/o Conflict's approach with Registeel. I explored that 6 with a different approach myself, but it wasn't for me. Snorlax+Tyranitar can work when absolutely necessary, but I think those teams will forever be C-tier comps. I don't see Lax above Dol for as long as Dol Spikes strats are good in my mind, but I am quite high on Cune and Spin, and think a strong Snorlax set is the secret sauce for many of those teams, with competition from Blissey on different -- if adjacent -- comps, and Registeel on similar comps and Sand builds. I like it more than Gengar for significant splashability reasons but view the best Gar teams as being a cut above Lax builds on average, but I'm low enough on Celebi that I think this mon belongs solidly in B1, in this specific range of discussion.

10-13
Most consistent endgame breaker. Supports other birds nicely, like Zard. Almost necessitates Pert, because of the Mence, Meta, and Tar weaknesses, but Gon fits are cool, too, if frail agailst Mence and Meta. Don't like it with Blissey, since BKC Tar is a problem, and I'd prefer to slot Bliss with Spin, Gon, or Mence, and often without Tar, who is Aero's best partner, after Spikes -- which should typically come from Skarmory, to alleviate they phys weakness. Aero Spikes are teams relatively flexible in terms of the sets teammates can have, and there's always a way to slot a flavor threat in the 6th slot, which gives it a significant viability bump for me. Guess the last -- is it Jira, Zard, Gar, Meta, or something else? And what is the set and coverage? I had this mon in A before I realized how good Zap could be for other teams, and Aero teams obviously have SpD issues, with Clat's EC being the flagbearer of the style that struggles to switch into water-type breakers and Zapdos, but the compensation is clear and easily accessible, and its flexibility allows its teammates to solve those problems on somewhat less offensively synergistic 6s. I like CB almost exclusively, but I respect Sub to punish opposing Aero builds and on trade-heavy builds, but it's one of those things like HP Fire Forretress, where the advantage it gains into a meta usually means it's a sign that another meta shift is long-since due.

I could see this mon ahead of Suicune with a higher evaluation of Aero Spikes and a lower evaluation of offense, but more realistically, I think it can be placed above Jirachi for having a more clearly integral role on its best teams. I can also see it just behind Gengar, with a higher evaluation of special Spikes offense and Gengar balance/stall. It's possible I've just placed it too low because I built all the Aero teams I wanted to before updating my builder (and VR), but I think my higher evaluation of DD Mence and Agility Zap strategies makes it harder for me to see Aero in its most positive light as well. I'll put it behind Lax because I like Lax on those same teams with Mence and Zap.

10-13
I explored this guy without Sand, and I like having boom for Zap. It's good for Pert and Zap, but also supports DD BB FB Mence, among other mixed birds, and Cune. Taunt Gar is brilliant next to a Roar-using special attacker, especially under Sand -- which probably only means Molt, Zap, and sometimes Mix Mence -- and it's nice to choke off mono Stoss Bliss, but it's also kind of cancer for Registeel, so I hate it. Gar has all the toys, and Taunt breaks so many other mons -- especially pha(z)ers, when using full pass; not just on Gar -- that I have to wonder if Taunt is healthy. It's not something you just outplay. You dodge a WoW or build for it, and it kind of just gatekeeps a lot of mons if the Gar user plays decently. It doesn't have the typing/utility to consistently slot in A for me -- A is for mons that can slot everywhere at a decently high level, which usually means defensive heavy-lifting -- but I can see it going as high as 6th, ahead of Mence, due to the high quality of its builds, but no lower than it currently is, realistically, without a more positive perspective of the B2 mons. It just lacks the defensive utility (read: splashability) and offensive versatility (having to tech for Zap, Dol, and Pert) and usually does not slot with mixed walls, which makes it a bit artificial defensively. I have no interest in the Aero Spikes builds that have been popular of late that have entirely foregone Zapdos switch-ins, relying on Gengar to offer compensation, and I think people should and will start running Zap coverage more and more frequently in the coming meta cycles.

13-14
Celebi sucks without a second special check, but also with one. The Blissey takes are not convincing to me. It's decent next to Snorlax, but Agility Pass Zapdos fits really unlock the mon for me. You have to be willing to trade it into Tyranitar to maximize its value; Celebi isn't so forceful without the threat of BP, so you have to live with whatever it draws in. I'm actually coming back around on Seed CM Celebi -- with HP Fire/Electric, depending on comp -- and I'm starting to feel like CM sets might be its best, just because of how they fit on the builds where I want it. I don't like it with Sand outside of very specific fits. I can't realistically be any higher on this mon than I am without falling out of love with Gengar, Claydol, and Snorlax while also having a higher evaluation of Recover and BP sets, but I'm also not entirely comfortable saying that Registeel gets more of an advantage than it or fits on more builds than it to place Steel above it. It's an excellent partner to Zap Pass, and I think it has the right blend of defensive utility (splashability) and relevant offensive interactions to be a solid, high-B tier mon, but I think I can also see Milotic and Flygon as being higher-leverage on their respective teams. There aren't enough builds for me to consider placing them above Celebi at the moment, so they're in a subtier below, but it's a conversation I'm still entertaining at the moment.

13-15
Magneton is quite good. I like SkarmMag more now, and I have some takes to share. Mag is especially good with Zapdos. Mag off with Zap (and no DDer) is actually quite brilliant. Speed and Sub Pass in support of CM and friends is super solid. Mag is best without Tar, though, because all of its best teammates hate Sand and demand additional defensive support that a Tar slot cannot offer at a high enough level. Suit Tar does not cut it on Mag offense, where its Sand is detrimental to the bulky, grounded mons of the tier. Instead, aim to abuse Tar with the free slot. I think I can place it ahead of Gengar, but I'm reluctant to put it behind Registeel.

14-16
Registeel is a weird, Blissey-Regirock hybrid. Some would say Meta-Lax, but that kind of overstates the offense it gives you, and how hard Gar stuffs it. But I build to lure Gar in three slots on Steel teams, or pair with two ins, so I think it's doable. It doesn't pair well with Off Zap, but it does slot very nicely next to Meta and Lax, offering numerical advantage defensively and offensively in the overlap, which is a huge part of the reason to use it. Years ago, I conceived of pairing it with End Pert as a Rest/IP/Thunder sweeper. That didn't work out, but I still love It with End Pert, and think it does enough heavy-lifting to allow for some funky set-ups. Its pressure into grounds, steels, Tyranitar, Snorlax, and Celebi come in handy. It can allow one to eschew Meta+Lax on offense by occupying both slots to allow other overloads. It doesn't need Spin on aggro Spikes builds with End Pert. I can recommend Rest, Protect, Toxic, and other odd coverage and utility moves on it. It can slot with next to anything. This mon is a heavy-lifting titan. I think I could have it above Celebi or behind Flygon -- because I'm high on Flygon, not low on Steel -- but I'm not comfortable saying Registeel is nearly as diverse as the mons ahead of it (Celebi and Magneton), for the simple fact that Celebi has more sets, and Magneton probably has a higher quality of team on average? It's more splashable than Milo or Gon for me, but it's hard to compare Steel's higher splashability with Milo's and Gon's quality of builds. I can't be sure, but I'm an advocate of Registeel.

16-19
Use both with Rest Zap. Ice Beam Milo doesn't mind foregoing Refresh when Zap is there to absorb Toxics, and it can pressure Zap/Cele for teammates, or just play as more of a weapon. Use with Spikes and Spin, or at least Mag. I tried Mantine>Zapdos with Flygon, and it's funny. I don't want to put these guys lower, but I could see either of them ahead of Celebi on the basis of sheer quality of team comp. Flygon has a particularly nice defensive synergy with Mix (and CM) Jira, as a near perfect phys Tar counter, and it supports Tar overload for Zap+Jira and any other specials. I've liked HP Ghost on it in some spots. I don't think I'm comfortable putting these mons lower than they are, based on some new fits I've explored with them. They're too versatile. Jolteon is a threat that I've been likelier to pick than Milo and Gon as individual mons, but I think that might change soon.

18-21
Good vs Zap. Idk what you want me to say. This dude is underrated. Sub Pass still breaks people's brains, but it also has nice counters, like Roar, TW, and Wish. I personally don't like dropping Sub Pass, but Sub+Roar and Sub+Wish can do some funny stuff -- as can Sub+Tbolt+Roar+BP. It's best friends with Cloyster, but it's an awkward substitute for Zapdos/Blissey in general. I think maybe it could have been in the sub-tier down, but I'm high on the threat factor and what it enables. Comparable to Aero in terms of (defensive!) heavy-lifting done by light pivots on offensive Spikes builds -- slot it with all your favorite skinny offensive threats, like Jirachi, Charizard, or Gengar and watch it go. This is the part of the VR where I start to care somewhat less for the mons, due to lacking significant roles.

19-21
Use without Sand. The mons that love Spin hate Sand. Except for Registeel. They are also good with Sand, but I only like the special offense fits for them with Sand, since they fit more special backbone without giving up pressure. They can also slot Snorlax.

C, D

?
Starmie isn't a real Pokemon on 95% of builds in my mind, but if I had to say where it slots, it's again, next to Zapdos and one of Blissey or Celebi -- but also next to Pert, typically. Unless you believe in using a steel type as your Tar in -- something with which I disagree -- you will want Pert to check BKC, DD, or even Suit Tar.

Regirock is a funny one. Give it a CB and it's not far off a CB Meta in my estimation. Except... It doesn't lure Zap, which sucks for DD BB FB Mence, Cune, and Zap+Cune strats, generally, and it's walled by Gar if it chooses the wrong click. I like HP Ghost. t1 Rock Slide and houdini are valid clicks at lead. It does slot next to Speed Pass, as it lures grounds for CM Jira, Kou, Zap, and Tar, among others, but I think I prefer it with DD Mence -- especially BBQ, since it likes the Celebi/Dol/Gon/Gar luring. It can fit in a lot of places, but I think it's usually better not to unless you're planning on making the most of everything it does to lure Psychics and Steels, because it is a bit offbeat for not luring Zap in a way that other mons don't necessarily appreciate.

Hera is nice in a meta cycle where Mence and/or Dug aren't spammed, and it has counters and partners for Dug, so that's just fine. I don't know if it's optimal to drop Mence next to it for Zap, but I think double fighter (with Zap) is legit, and I respect Hera as a scout and meta pick. It is a proper EQ switch-in, and it can switch into 3/4 BKC Tar clicks, which makes it an excellent partner to Registeel, Claydol, and Suicune. I wouldn't pair this with a DD bird on most teams, since that usually involved making a concession in one of the slots, but the compression Zap offers is perfect for it. It is the one fighter with real defensive interactions: with Tar (not minding 3/4 clicks); with Pert (not minding Surf, IB, Tox, Tect); with other fighters; with Rest mons; and with psychics (not minding Dol EQ, Star TW, most Celebi clicks). The other fighters' bulk and resists feel token (bar Machamp) for the simple fact that they don't want to switch into Aero Double-Edge or Tyranitar EQ/FP (bar Medi, who switches in once at best). Salac stuff is legit next to Zap and Cune. One downside is that it doesn't lure Claydol for other sweepers, which is unfortunate.

These last three mons fit on good teams rather naturally. There are either too many of them, or they are of too high quality for me to consider them as being the same as the other C-tiers with regards to viability, but I can see my opinion on them changing between low B- and high-C for reasons related to disparities in quality and splashability (one mid, one low). The ranges become fuzzier here, so I'm not going to continue with offering number ranges.


Molt feels good, but it's another bird competing for the same slots as Mence and Zard, in some sense. WoW is what makes it worth using, in my mind. I never cared for it next to Aero, since it compounds weaknesses. While Zard and Mence are the same, they at least offer significant offensive compensation, which has made me more amenable to those fits. I think you need to use Molt with Blissey in most cases, but that's in large part because I don't trust anything else defensively there. I respect Gar fits, and SEA's Sub Jira fit was brilliant, but I don't care for match-up division. I do love it with Cloy and Jolt, and I respect it on GS Superman adjacent teams with Zap and Jira, but that's a very narrow band of teams. Molt is selfish. I mentioned not liking HP Grass on Mence, and it's for the same reason I don't care for Molt; it's just a selfish mon that doesn't really give so much back to teammates, and that usually means it's a slower Aero or Mence reskin.

Zard falls into the same category, but Beat Up+Brick Break, Beat Up+Dclaw, Sub Punch, and other techs allow it to better synergize with teammates. Although it has the Mence problem of not slotting especially well next to Zap, without the means of really diversifying. Why does Agility Zap want another mon to dunk on Pert Spikes? The pressure into Bliss is nice, but the defensive and offensive overlap otherwise is fairly significant, and it's not as if Zard is able to accomplish so much more with Zap supporting it, while Zap has other teammates to pick from that can accomplish more. Zard therefore is best equipped to slot on Spikes, and I feel as tho it's a second bird to Aero in its ideal fits. It can fit on certain Sand offenses, given Sub Jira is used to prepare for v5, or some other complex set up that overloads Milo. It is a good servant of DD Mence's, but it's hard to be high on Zard since it's easy to adapt to different sets. It's maybe a better team player than Molt on Spikes, so I think I still like some of the ideas from my old Zard Supermans, and I think it can support some slower Bliss Spikes teams, provided one has lures for Ttar to avoid getting run over by it, but I don't love those fits so much anymore.


Fruhdazi says I have to mention el Catito. It is comparable to Cune (offensively, but also in hating Sand), but requires Speed Pass or P2 to beat Dugtrio. Otherwise, match-up division with DD Mence (or Salac Hera) makes sense. Sandless is better than with Tar. I like this mon more than Zard right now, but Zard slots on Spikes far more naturally, so it clears. I also think its worth building around -- more so than the mons beneath it -- which is in part responsible for how much I like it and how highly I place it, although I wouldn't be mad if someone said the mons below it clear it, just for splashability reasons. Decent quality of teams.


This mon gimps every team its on, offering the promise of the power to bind the souls of a team's enemies to the earth. Is it literally Satan? No, probably not, and ADV is fine without banning it, but it's also kind of lame that we can't have cool things because of its gatekeeping. I don't know where to place it because I don't feel like Dugtrio teams are worth the trouble of including it, outside of Bliss+Milo/Cune fits and the occasional (usually lower viability) weather clear team, but I respect the hell out of Dug Spikes in the builder.


Works well on Sand. The other fighters are frail for that.


Heracross reskin with added features. It gives up the beneficial bug-typing and guts for... Less defensive utility? Can't switch into Ice Beam waters comfortably or standard electric/grass coverage-mons as well, because it doesn't consistently beat them, even though the resistances can be valuable. However, Spore and Stun Spore beat Loom's first and second counters on a team pretty comfortably. Not a bad mon, but I think this guy especially wants Zap and Lax -- and not Celebi -- if it is to be sound against Zapdos. You can also just cheat and drop Lax, but this kind of comp is pigeon-holed into some very specific stuff.


A cheap toy. It has less of the synergies the other fighters possess, due to lacking Guts, bulk-typing, and utility options. It's a gimmicky lead.


This mon is good with Spin and under Sand, which means Forre Tar builds, or weird SkarmDolTar stuff. Maybe try it with Zap. It wants Wish and back up phys def, but the upside is that it trolls v5 out of existence and handles Cro Cune. Can recommend.


I think I found a few odd teams where I like it, but I think HP Rock might be necessary, and I feel that Mag is almost a foregone conclusion. It actually doesn't have the best synergy with Zapdos, which is another odd detail. I think it doesn't mind too much between Cele/Lax vs Zap/Lax, which is unique. HP Rock should have a positive mu against EC, theoretically, and it should be able to deal with some of the Calm Cune teams, since Cune is neither hitting as hard nor soaking the hits as well as when it was running Modest/Timid and Bold exclusively, but Gyara just lacks offensive stats and coverage. I don't like Thunder Wave. You have to make some kinds of concessions to slot Mence with it, and HP Ghost and Flying suck against Zap and Aero. It's usable, but it's not like you're going to find a natural fit where Gyara is the mon that completes the team you've been struggling to find a last for.

 

[greenapricotttss]

View attachment 753689

Damn this a really good VR for ADV, agree with it on so many levels
Very refreshing to see someone not glazing Dug, or even Bliss (Zap > Bliss)
I think people undermine the imminent threat of Zap, even if its not Modest, because of the ranges it can threaten (along with the need to determine it's hidden pwr) & then roarZap is so freaking good with sand + spikes
Personally I think Celebi is a bit better than everyone in B1, Id give her A3 just because she can be rather obnoxious but I get the Dug struggle

 

[Zpanther]

With Medicham recently rising to OU i want to bring up another Pokemon that I and many others in the community believe is just as strong if not better than Medicham in ADV. That Pokemon is Raikou. Raikou was of course once OU but fell due to Lack of serious tournament use, however Based on the trends of this years Jimvitational 2 Raikou has seen play 19 times as opposed to Medicham's 7 uses. This is up to date as of 6/25 more games have since been played but regardless its clear Raikou is seeing as much if not more usage in high level play. With all that being said here is my case for Raikou to return to OU:

Raikou is extremely strong into a very common and strong team in its own right, El Classico, consisting of the Pokemon Tyranitar, Skarmory, Zapdos, Gengar, Swampert and Aerodactyl it has many pokemon kou can use to set up a substitute on or start calm minding. Zapdos and Gengar both dont love to deal with Raikou especially without roar in Zaps case or boom for an aero follow up in Gars case. The Standard Version of Classico (at least the sample team) uses toxic, protect Zap and modest taunt Gar both of which are ill equipped to handle Raikou particularly sub variants. Even worse for that matchup Swampert which normally carries earthquake runs its mono surf toxic set which can very easily be set up on by Kou. I dont think i need to go too far deep into why skarmory especially on a team like this where it often trades spikes for damage early on, doesn't like facing down a Raikou. It'll almost never be at health high enough to phase it by the time Kou hits the field. Tyranitar and Aerodactyl are great checks to Kou especially Tar if still relatively healthy. However due to the nature of the team DD Tar on Classico often DDs early to limit spikes and sometimes trade with rock resists for its teammate aero making it tough for Tar to check Raikou long term. Aero on the other hand can only check Kou if it doesn't have a sub up but with all the setup opportunities this team provides it this is easier said than done. Why is its matchup into this team even relevant or important? Well El Classico is regarded as one the best teams in ADV OU. It sees lots and lots of tournament use such as in this past SPL and the fore mentioned Jimvitational 2. While Classico is maybe the most relevant Team Raikou is very strong into theres also many other team styles it has a very strong matchup into namely Skarmory + Celebi spikes teams. Its Strong Matchup into these teams is due to similar reasons as Classico. these teams often run Leech 3 Attacks Celebi which has to be weary of sub and cant really click leech seed facing down a raikou. These teams often run Metagross + Mixed Salamence as well which can have a hard time dealing with Raikou. Meta is often tasked to check other pokemon such as Tyranitar and Snorlax so it can be overloaded when also having to be a backup check to Raikou. These teams also struggle mightily vs Raikou's Super set ( CM, T Bolt, Hp Grass, Crunch) as the coverage hits all the most common Pokemon on these structures hard or for super effective damage. Skarmory + Celebi spikes teams are also extremely common across tournaments. Lastly I think a pretty underrated boon for Raikou has been the rise of Calm mind Blissey. Its kinda a joke in the community at this point that Zoomer ADV players love to slap CM Bliss onto teams they have no business on (myself included) resulting in alot of teams that fall prey to Raikou. Due to this many players have started EV-ing Raikou so its sub can take a Blissey Ice beam and not break. In a Sandless matchup especially this can get out of hand quickly letting Raikou set up on Blissey, pressure stall its attacks (remember ice beam only has 8 pp vs pressure) and fish for critical hits. While I dont think this is as notable as its matchup into the previously mentioned teams it increases the range of matchups Raikou can excel in so i thought it worth mentioning. Raikou has been seeing alot of new changes in the team structures its on with its recent rise. Many high level players such as ABR, BIHI and Fruhdazi have been using it on spikes builds and its also seeing a lot of use on mixed offense teams. I have been building with it alot on these mix off teams personally due to its great synergy with Pokemon that Trade down with the opponent creating end game scenarios for Kou to thrive in.



Recently I asked a few players in the community their thoughts on Raikou in the current meta, because im going to make a Youtube Video detailing its recent resurgence and showing replays of these traits in action. For transparency here was their thoughts ;

ABR:
its heat.
and id say the biggest Newer development is using it on spikes builds and without p2
to improve the matchup vs special offense if ur original special wall like bliss dies
also thrives in trendy sandless environments
i use it more than a lotta ou mons
but im not sure the larger usage reflects that of otherwise ou mons

Kollin7:
People (think ABR/Bihi as big OG innovators) starting to use it as a late game cleaner on spikes teams was huge and it's surprisingly incredibly potent in this role. Probably popped up as a direct response to El Classico dominance, Raikou is especially great vs that team. But there's a big class of player rn that doesn't use very much Dugtrio in general (myself pretty included in this class) and that has definitely made Raikou more appealing too. On a more minor note, Fruhdazi using Raikou on MagOff was also incredibly cool and smart, because it makes those teams better vs MixMence/Charizard while still giving another check to Zap/Gar/Mie to take pressure off of Snorlax. The only thing about those teams is I find it a little awkward to give sets to the mons in an elegant way and get everything to work seamlessly, but yeah it's definitely cool and interesting.

This isn't all to say Raikou is suddenly an amazing or dominant mon, and when mentioning that some players don't use a ton of Dugtrio, it is not like they are all getting constantly run over by Raikou, but I do think Raikou has a very solid spot in the metagame rn and I think it's clearly worthy of being brought up to OU status. It's actually getting used in big tours more than Medicham is by a significant margin and that mon just got risen.



Thus, I believe Raikou deserves a serious look at rising back to OU especially considering its use in seriours tournment play compared to Ous newest member Medicham. In my humble opinion if Medi is OU then Kou might as well be to. Look out for my Youtube video coming soon, ill go a little more in depth on my thoughts and will show replay evidence to support my stance. What do yall think about Raikou?

 

[pooballs]

Thus, I believe Raikou deserves a serious look at rising back to OU especially considering its use in seriours tournment play compared to Ous newest member Medicham. In my humble opinion if Medi is OU then Kou might as well be to.

as many of you may know that I have achieved at LEAST 1200 rating several times, this means I can add input to this discussion

bulky RAIKOO is very op-broken and medicham is not op-broken, they both feel a little bit matchup fishy but the kou's speed and bulk, with the potential for some substitute/cm shenanigans, it seems way better than medicham overall to me so i agree and i know a lot of ppl were waiting for me to say this but YES, raikou is now OU.........