Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

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Fireburn

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By availability I did in fact mean Electrike is obtainable much earlier. While it's contributions against boss trainers are admittedly limited, being available 3 Gyms earlier is still fairly significant for general contributions against randoms.

That said I don't mind Magneton going to B, I can see the arguments for it.
 
The issue I take with Electrike is that it's honestly pretty pathetic even against Randoms. Until level 20 you're working without even so much as Spark for STAB, just Normal starting moves off its low Base 40 ATK, at a point where several trainers are geared for your second stage starter level. There is no real fight that Electrike makes easier by grabbing it earlier, and it's not much for sweeping route trainers. If you were to baby it and feed it EXP since you're not using it for the ability to win fights currently, you're better off waiting for the later appearance and letting the EXP go to someone else who could use it, or fighting those battles with something more effective. Electrike's early availability doesn't make the playthrough much smoother since it slows down those fights to at most end up in a marginally better place than a "caught strong" one.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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I don't get why people in these threads are always so focused on experience distribution among a party as a justification to pick up a FE form of a Mon later. They always seem to completely neglect the stat increases from incremental EV gains by training the Mon earlier

This is a general thing not an electrike thing
 

Merritt

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I don't get why people in these threads are always so focused on experience distribution among a party as a justification to pick up a FE form of a Mon later. They always seem to completely neglect the stat increases from incremental EV gains by training the Mon earlier

This is a general thing not an electrike thing
So I'll see if I can explain this.

EVs, by endgame, are usually a factor of around 15 extra stat points compared to an untrained mon, particularly in Emerald where endgame is mid 50s on the high end. This is accounting for level and the fact that without specific training, EVs end up roughly even and hovering near or below the 100 EVs in a stat mark. While this is certainly notable, this is on the extreme side since for most Pokemon where it's recommended to grab them later they're seeing heavier use after that point than the areas and battles beforehand; if they were particularly useful in the areas prior then it'd likely be recommended to get them earlier.

So, being generous and using Electrike for context, catching something before the third gym vs before the sixth without any particular grinding is maybe a 50 EV difference. At level 30, that's about 4 stats worth of difference and around endgame (level 50) that's about a 5-7 stat difference. That's about 3 extra levels on the outside.

So, the extra EVs are the equivalent of a fairly low number of extra levels, capping out maybe around 4 extra levels near endgame and fewer "bonus levels" earlier on. In return, however, you're giving up exp that teammates could use both to make the earlier portions easier (and faster) as well as to gain levels of their own. In many cases, this is a fairly even trade overall, if ever so slightly disadvantageous to the Pokemon in question. The main time where it could be considered better to grab a Pokemon later is when it has a fairly painful babying stage that eats up time just to get the Pokemon to a very slightly better position than grabbing it later would offer.

For Electrike in particular, it doesn't offer any particularly astounding contributions before getting Surf, although it can be useful for Mt. Chimney, Flannery, and Norman despite not having an advantage. It does offer appreciated help after a somewhat short and painful time until Spark which is why I personally think it's still more efficient to grab Electrike earlier than later, although not notably so.
 
Machop, Machoke
First and foremost, Machoke's stats are only about average relative to the other Pokemon obtainable around that time. Its physical attack is good, but it won't get many chances to attack if it can neither outspeed nor wall most of its opponents. Its movepool isn't that much better, as its level up movepool is pretty much all fighting attacks, and its only coverage moves are strength and earthquake (the latter of which requires a one-time TM with many better users). Revenge and cross chop are okay, but there are simply too many fighting-resistant Pokemon in the second half of the game (and Machoke's stats are too low) for them to be good. Sure, Machoke can help defeat a few regular trainers and push boulders around, but it sucks against all gyms except the last one and maybe Emerald Norman, and it only kind of helps against two of the Elite Four.
Because its stats and movepool just aren't that good, I nominate Machop for D tier.
 

Merritt

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Big update.

First and foremost, added in an F tier - this is largely to help split up D tier since the levels of viability inside it ranged from halfway decent to nearly E tier already. Everything in E tier instead moved to F tier, although if you believe something in the new F tier is good enough for E please feel free to nominate it. If you think that adding another tier is unnecessary feel free to say why too.

The following Pokemon moved from D tier to E tier:
Cacnea
Duskull
Geodude (No Trade)
Mawile (R)
Minun (RE)
Nincada (Ninjask)
Nincada (Shedinja)
Pikachu
Plusle (S)
Poochyena
Regice
Rhyhorn
Sableye
Sandshrew
Seedot
Slugma
Snorunt
Whismur
Wurmple (Beautifly)
Wurmple (Dustox)


As with F tier, if you believe something deserves to be higher or lower from these mons, please make a nomination for it. If you'd like elaboration on any of these drops just let me know.

Other changes:

Marill is unsplit between versions, and Marill (all versions) is now ranked B. Marill remains one of the better HM slaves in the game, and while Emerald Marill is better than the RS versions as it can contribute to a few early battles including Roxanne and Rival 2, Marill's utility and usability in the Flannery and against Team Magma in RS is still enough to be worth B rank.

Lotad drops to D rank. Lotad is incredibly underwhelming overall, falling off early and not making a resurgence until getting the Water Stone after Gym 7, requiring training to keep it up to par with other Pokemon. With the cleaning up of D rank, Lotad now fits there fairly well.

Voltorb rises to C rank. It's the fast but less strong Electric-type with Explosion to set it apart.

Magnemite rises to B rank. Kurona sums it up well, highly suggest reading this post for much of the reasoning behind it. That said, Magnemite is still open to dropping to C if people believe that's a better representation of its viability.

Makuhita rises to B rank. While it's definitely an item hog, it's also a very potent Pokemon overall against many midgame and lategame opponents, particularly if given room to set up. See this post for the full breakdown.

Anorith drops to D rank. Honestly it probably should have been there from the start - a terrible movepool and very late evolution hold it back from meaningful contributions for most of the game.

Unchanged for now, but discussion points:

Electrike remains B rank. This one is definitely on the fence and close to dropping, although ultimately it's very close in viability to Magnemite. The speed and availability difference (despite the early period being rather painful) make up for the slight loss in power and lack of Steel typing that Magnemite enjoys. Keeping the two in the same tier for now, but obviously this is open to change.

Torchic remains S rank for now. I'd really like to see some more discussion on this one, as valid points have been raised both for staying S and dropping to A.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Cacnea and Cacturne aren't that awful, D tier is fair for it

I think makuhita rising to B was premature, definitely don't agree with that and would want to see more discussion
 
Yeah, the D tier has always looked a little too big to me. I was going to propose moving a bunch of evolution families out, but I guess this works too. I still want to change a few things, though.

I think Seedot and Nincada (Ninjask) should stay D.
Seedot learns synthesis pretty early. Grass dark is an okay STAB combination. 90 special attack is definitely not negligible, and faint attack and giga drain hit a number of late-game major opponents for super effective damage. Growth lets it pull off a few sweeps. In Emerald, a Seedot can be traded, which makes it really easy to overlevel. It's also probably the best explosion user in that version because most of the others are either really slow or have weak physical attack.
Despite being one of the early-game weak bug Pokemon, Ninjask's 90 physical attack should probably not be overlooked. It can sweep sometimes with swords dance, whether it's attacking with cut, return, aerial ace, or shadow ball. After it learns baton pass, it can easily pass physical attack and speed boosts to its teammates.

I think Lileep, Castform, Kecleon, and Chinchou should move to E (because the D tier is still too big).
Lileep evolves really late. Lileep and Cradily are both TM-reliant for good moves, as acid is pretty much their best level up move. The fact that Lileep can't learn strength until it evolves doesn't help, either. It's also slow, so it needs a lot of healing items to keep from fainting.
Castform is a slightly stronger Spinda that can't learn HMs (except maybe flash). It has an interesting ability, but it needs a turn to set up every time it needs to change to a different type. All of its weather-boosted weather balls are resisted by water.
Because its slow and has a bad ability, Kecleon has no reliable STAB. It's stuck with STAB-less strength as its best move unless the player is willing to use TMs on it.
Chinchou comes really late, and it comes at level 30 when the rest of the team is around level 40. You are going to need to pour a ton of experience into it if you want to use it in Seafloor Cavern. Its slow growth rate isn't helping, either.

By the way, can Machop drop to D tier?
Cacnea and Cacturne aren't that awful, D tier is fair for it
It has 55 base speed and 6 weaknesses. You are going to need a lot of healing items and revives to prevent it from being awful.
 
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Merritt

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I think Seedot should stay D.
Seedot learns synthesis pretty early. Grass dark is an okay STAB combination. 90 special attack is definitely not negligible, and faint attack and giga drain hit a number of late-game major opponents for super effective damage. Growth lets it pull off a few sweeps. In Emerald, a Seedot can be traded, which makes it really easy to overlevel. It's also probably the best explosion user in that version because most of the others are either really slow or have weak physical attack.
Gonna rq address this.

Synthesis (and all recovery moves) isn't a bad thing to have, but it's generally overshadowed by healing items. It's also in no way worth dragging Seedot's worthless carcass up to level 21 for. Seedot's offensive movepool before evolution is functionally Bide (which is goddamn Bide), Bullet Seed via TM (which again, has an average BP of 30 in this gen), and finally getting to the usually-mediocre at best Nature Power (keep in mind that in this gen in grassy terrain Nature Power becomes the non-offensive Stun Spore and in buildings is the weak Swift).

Explosion is only a possible factor in Emerald, and isn't obtained until Pacifidlog. Carrying along a Seedot until level 43 is implausible on every level for an efficient run. While Shifty makes decent use of the move, it's also Explosion, which is more of a semi-nice plus to have than a particularly useful move.

In terms of actual contributions, Nuzleaf offers from its incredibly underwhelming offenses Bullet Seed and Thief, along with maybe Rock Tomb (Nuzleaf isn't a good user of the move) until level 31 when it finally learns Faint Attack. That's around Winona and the evolution to Shiftry, and Giga Drain isn't until after that too.

Shiftry, fortunately, is decent with acceptable speed, only somewhat underpowered STABs (60 BP isn't really that good) supplemented by the Shadow Ball TM, and good offensive stats overall. That said, Shiftry is definitely not amazing, and dragging along something that's actually really terrible for almost 30 levels is incredibly inefficient. That's why it's in E rank now.

Also the trade Seedot is actually really bad - 5/4/5/4/4/4 IVs and a set Relaxed nature (reducing Shiftry's speed is a bad thing) drag it down further than the boosted exp helps.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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It has 55 base speed and 6 weaknesses. You are going to need a lot of healing items and revives to prevent it from being awful.
Can you like, stop commenting on my posts. Seriously every time I post you feel compelled to attack me with the shittiest arguments.

I don't give a flying fuck how many weaknesses Cacturne has. Ice is rare. Fire is rare. Bug stab is nonexistant. Flying stab is somewhat uncommon. Fighting and Poison are common.

Why are you using Cacturne to fight a Fighting type. You aren't you're using your other team members. Saying x has weaknesses is the most retarded argument you can make.

55 speed is slow, sure. It's not that slow. It's faster than aggron and both do just fine against the majority of route trainers after factoring ev and iv boosted stats. You will be outspeeding the majority of your enemies and a lot of the ones that outspeed you (i.e. birds) you're switching out of anyway

It has strong attacking stats and grass/dark does quite a decent job at hitting things for neutral coverage, plus needle arm is good against the water routes.

Cacturne isn't particularly good and I never claimed it was. But it's definitely usable, and it's head and shoulders above a tier with fucking Torkoal

It doesn't belong in E tier, D is fair
 

Merritt

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Can you like, stop commenting on my posts. Seriously every time I post you feel compelled to attack me with the shittiest arguments.

I don't give a flying fuck how many weaknesses Cacturne has. Ice is rare. Fire is rare. Bug stab is nonexistant. Flying stab is somewhat uncommon. Fighting and Poison are common.

Why are you using Cacturne to fight a Fighting type. You aren't you're using your other team members. Saying x has weaknesses is the most retarded argument you can make.

55 speed is slow, sure. It's not that slow. It's faster than aggron and both do just fine against the majority of route trainers after factoring ev and iv boosted stats. You will be outspeeding the majority of your enemies and a lot of the ones that outspeed you (i.e. birds) you're switching out of anyway

It has strong attacking stats and grass/dark does quite a decent job at hitting things for neutral coverage, plus needle arm is good against the water routes.

Cacturne isn't particularly good and I never claimed it was. But it's definitely usable, and it's head and shoulders above a tier with fucking Torkoal

It doesn't belong in E tier, D is fair
Main reason Cacnea dropped (this isn't saying it shouldn't be D) is the investment vs payoff much like Seedot - although definitely less painful. Cacnea's coming at about Level 20, with its amazing set of Absorb/Growth/Leech Seed/Sand Attack, and things don't even start getting better until Level 29 and (the non STAB for another 3 levels) Faint Attack. There's really no way around this, Cacnea's TM options to help its lack of any offense are Secret Power and Bullet Seed - while Secret Power, is workable Bullet Seed has long since fallen off. While Leech Seed can be very helpful for major battles, killing random route stuff with Leech Seed is inefficient to say the least.

When Cacnea finally gets to Faint Attack it's at the point where it can vaguely fend for itself, although its stats defensively (and speedwise) are becoming worse than just subpar at that point. It does manage to make the otherwise pretty weak Faint Attack work because Cacnea is strong fortunately.

Cacturne is a fine Pokemon, doing well with Faint Attack, Strength, and Giga Drain, although the 5 PP on Giga Drain makes route clearing rather annoying. Needle Arm solves this, but it's damn late at level 41. The Cacturne phase certainly isn't bad, but it's also not particularly high payout for the investment put in during the main Cacnea phase.

That'd be the real reason why Cacnea dropped, although I'm open to putting it back in D. On a different note, Torkoal should have among the list for E, my bad for missing it. This has been fixed.
 
It’s been a while since I used Geodude, but it’s definitely D even without trading. It’s the only ground-type other than Mudkip or unevolved Nincada available before Wattson, who is a major pain unless you have an immunity. Then Geodude evolves at 25(really 26), doesn’t need TMs, and has a solid matchup against the next 3 gyms(if you have death fodder for Flannery). Yes, it falls off against the late-game water spam, but even without trading Geodude has basically carried me through boss fights before.

Castform should definitely drop to E. It comes pretty late, poor stats, it’s TM-expensive, and the mandatory set-up turn makes it a massive pain to level. I actually like the mon, which is why I’ve run through twice with it, but it’s more of a pain to use than nearly anything else.
 
Another quick D-to-E proposal; this time it's Seviper. Seviper's fluctuating growth rate makes it difficult to keep well-leveled near the end of the game, which is unfortunate because the last gym is probably its first good matchup. Seviper's base speed and defenses are all around 60, so it'll be taking a lot of hits and not getting too many chances to hit back. Seviper can't cover much with crunch and glare (glare is a good move; it just doesn't cover anything), and stuff like sludge bomb, earthquake, and flamethrower require TMs.
 
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Karxrida

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Mawile (R) Tier E -> Tier F (merge with the other Mawile)

What does this do outside of being an Intimidate bot? Its stats are actually pretty nice when you get it, but its movepool is super garbage with no STAB and it's reliant on TMs you won't get for a long time. Plus it does jack for every important matchup outside of trolling the rival's Grovyle if you chose Mudkip.
 
Mawile (R) Tier E -> Tier F (merge with the other Mawile)

What does this do outside of being an Intimidate bot? Its stats are actually pretty nice when you get it, but its movepool is super garbage with no STAB and it's reliant on TMs you won't get for a long time. Plus it does jack for every important matchup outside of trolling the rival's Grovyle if you chose Mudkip.
Mawile can learn rock smash and strength. A Mawile HM slave is arguably better than a lot of the other E tier Pokemon because HM slaves at least don't waste experience. Among the other Pokemon that only learn two HMs, Mawile is one of the better ones because it has intimidate.

Edit: Whismur should stay in D. Sure, it's another one of those Pokemon you have to drag through the first 1/3 of the game, but at least it pulls some of its weight with howl-boosted pound. It learns shadow ball and brick break later, which is all that any normal type Pokemon should really need. If its teammates need those TMs more, then it still has options like overheat and ice beam (though they aren't powered up by howl).
 
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Merritt Hey, can you explain real quickly why Machop, Nincada, Lileep, Castform, Kecleon, Chinchou, Geodude, Seviper, Mawile, and Whismur are in the tiers they're currently in?
 

Merritt

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Merritt Hey, can you explain real quickly why Machop, Nincada, Lileep, Castform, Kecleon, Chinchou, Geodude, Seviper, Mawile, and Whismur are in the tiers they're currently in?
Machop - Fantastically strong fighting type that comes relatively early, has what's often a functionally 120 BP fighting STAB in Revenge starting at level 25, no dead period as it immediately comes with the workable Karate Chop, good TM movepool with Strength already available before obtaining it, makes good use of Dig if you want, can use the Rock Tomb, Earthquake, or even the Flamethrower/Fire Blast TMs if you want but certainly doesn't need them. Matchup against Flannery is acceptable - not really a positive or negative overall, although Torkoal is a poor match for Machop/Machoke. Tears apart Norman, beats up the rival for the most part, sits on the sideline for Winona and Tate&Liza, beats 2/3 of Maxie/Archie's team, can usually take on Sootopolis even if it doesn't sweep entirely, beats Sidney and Glacia like they owe money, Phoebe's a no unless you give EQ in which case it can usually take on one or two (keep in mind it always has guts), mediocre vs Drake but usually can take out a Flygon at least, 4/6 of Steven's team lose to the champ, and you can probably take Armaldo if you don't try to take on everything else as well, Wallace is less friendly but can usually take out a mon or two - especially with EQ.

Nincada - Fireburn summed Shedinja up well enough, go read his post and the following few if you still want an explanation. It's not F at the moment because it's extraordinarily good at taking out the things it can beat. Ninjask doesn't deserve F but considering that its movepool until after goddamn Winona is Secret Power and Dig (neither of which are STAB and are both low power) it's not contributing much if at all. Aerial Ace is still pretty weak - 90 base attack isn't spectacular and 60 BP is definitely not, and Shadow Ball is even weaker and is moderately high demand. Baton Pass allows Ninjask to finally achieve some real use, but at Level 45 it's probably not going to be a factor until E4.

Lileep - Asked the guy who convinced me to put it there in the first place.
It's stupid to grind up but it doesn't die against pretty much anything without se stab. you throw it on your team and any holes you have against bosses is covered if you slap toxic on lileep and let them die. giga drain and sludge bomb only speed up the process once you hand them to lileep. it might not be a world beater but it's definitely not f rank trash lol
Castform - Currently at D because its TM movepool allows for great coverage that's let down by poor stats. Weather Ball's alright at best - sure it's Castform's signature gimmick but a lost turn every time you do a battle adds up quick, especially when you can use a different move instead. Might be worth moving down to E, it's definitely on the worse side of D.

Kecleon - While its level up movepool isn't exactly amazing (Slash is alright but Strength is better), its TM movepool allows it to at least contribute against whatever major battle you want. While Color Change is annoying, it's not exactly debilitating since it usually leaves Kecleon resistant to whatever the opponent's strongest attack is, and Kecleon has barely enough Attack to punch with the endgame opponents by abusing its TM movepool. Bulk is pretty good too, helping offset the dead speed.

Chinchou - Chinchou's flaw is that it comes very late. Otherwise its movepool is fantastic (STAB thunderbolt and surf is excellent, toss it Ice Beam if you want but it doesn't really need it), its stats, while HP heavy, are alright because of its high BP moves, and it ends up with a good matchup against the remainder of the game. It's like a slightly later, slightly worse Staryu.

Geodude - trade or not-trade? They're somewhat different stories, although the common point is busting through Wattson-Winona (Graveler less so against Winona overall unfortunately), falling off somewhat lategame, and Golem making stronger contributions against Tate&Liza and parts of the E4 compared to Graveler.

I'll edit in the others later because holy shit that's every Pokemon mentioned on this page I haven't already explicitly addressed.

e: Alright let's deal with the others.

Seviper - Speed isn't that bad - still outpacing most route trainers and a lot of major battles' slower mons. Movepool works well as a mixed attacker - the special Bite/Crunch and Flamethrower pair well with Sludge Bomb and Earthquake if you choose to use it, allowing Seviper to put in work in pretty much every major battle in the game, Tate&Liza being pretty much the only hard no and even there Seviper can help out if needed. It's fairly comparable to the also D rank Grimer, having roughly the same level of power on Sludge Bomb and more special attacking power with a little more speed in exchange for lessened bulk.

Mawile - Emerald Mawile is garbage, being quite literally the last Pokemon available before postgame. Ruby Mawile manages F purely on stats alone, being extremely good for that point in the game, and not falling off for a decent while later. Its movepool is unimpressive but suffices for helping against rival 2, somewhat against Wattson and Norman, and can be used a little against Winona although you're better off slaving it at that point, as Intimidate makes it at least somewhat useful for support in battles unlike most pure HM slaves. Essentially Mawile's a decent crutch to get you through earlygame into midgame, and so doesn't reach the levels of awful for F tier.

Whismur - Whismur is a slow, frail, and fairly weak Pokemon who evolves moderately early into a less frail, still slow, still kind of weak Pokemon who doesn't evolve until lategame. Whismur chugs TMs like steroids in a frantic attempt to remain relevant, since the only thing it really has going for it is that, but virtually all those TMs that make it usable come in the mid-to-lategame where Loudred is gasping along, frantically struggling to contribute by constantly spamming a moderately effective Strength against everything when it knows its stats began to fall off at Flannery. After shoving a metric ton of CDs into its gaping maw, Loudred pretends that everything's ok but deep inside it knows that it's really not and that it's still frail and slow. Then it finally manages to drag itself into evolution and it's alright but the game's close to over and Whismur is really really terrible holy shit.

e2: It occurs to me that perhaps Whismur isn't quite as dispassionate as it should be. Maybe I'll edit it later. Basically, go actually try out Whismur sumwun.
 
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Machop - Fantastically strong fighting type that comes relatively early, has what's often a functionally 120 BP fighting STAB in Revenge starting at level 25, no dead period as it immediately comes with the workable Karate Chop, good TM movepool with Strength already available before obtaining it, makes good use of Dig if you want, can use the Rock Tomb, Earthquake, or even the Flamethrower/Fire Blast TMs if you want but certainly doesn't need them. Matchup against Flannery is acceptable - not really a positive or negative overall, although Torkoal is a poor match for Machop/Machoke. Tears apart Norman, beats up the rival for the most part, sits on the sideline for Winona and Tate&Liza, beats 2/3 of Maxie/Archie's team, can usually take on Sootopolis even if it doesn't sweep entirely, beats Sidney and Glacia like they owe money, Phoebe's a no unless you give EQ in which case it can usually take on one or two (keep in mind it always has guts), mediocre vs Drake but usually can take out a Flygon at least, 4/6 of Steven's team lose to the champ, and you can probably take Armaldo if you don't try to take on everything else as well, Wallace is less friendly but can usually take out a mon or two - especially with EQ.
Machamp is definitely one of the best Pokemon, but my nomination a few weeks ago was about no-trade Machop. It can't really sweep much and sucks a lot worse than Machamp does against a lot of trainers, particularly Norman and Steven.
Ninjask doesn't deserve F but considering that its movepool until after goddamn Winona is Secret Power and Dig (neither of which are STAB and are both low power) it's not contributing much if at all. Aerial Ace is still pretty weak - 90 base attack isn't spectacular and 60 BP is definitely not, and Shadow Ball is even weaker and is moderately high demand. Baton Pass allows Ninjask to finally achieve some real use, but at Level 45 it's probably not going to be a factor until E4.
Is it still this weak even with swords dance?
Lileep - Asked the guy who convinced me to put it there in the first place.
Someone on some other thread explained to me why toxic stalling is one of the worst things to do in-game. His reasoning was that toxic stalling took a lot of extra time, so you might as well spend that extra time overleveling a Volbeat and sweeping the game with that. It's probably not F tier, though I don't think it's good enough for D.
Castform - Currently at D because its TM movepool allows for great coverage that's let down by poor stats. Weather Ball's alright at best - sure it's Castform's signature gimmick but a lost turn every time you do a battle adds up quick, especially when you can use a different move instead. Might be worth moving down to E, it's definitely on the worse side of D.

Kecleon - While its level up movepool isn't exactly amazing (Slash is alright but Strength is better), its TM movepool allows it to at least contribute against whatever major battle you want. While Color Change is annoying, it's not exactly debilitating since it usually leaves Kecleon resistant to whatever the opponent's strongest attack is, and Kecleon has barely enough Attack to punch with the endgame opponents by abusing its TM movepool. Bulk is pretty good too, helping offset the dead speed.
Okay thanks.
Chinchou - Chinchou's flaw is that it comes very late. Otherwise its movepool is fantastic (STAB thunderbolt and surf is excellent, toss it Ice Beam if you want but it doesn't really need it), its stats, while HP heavy, are alright because of its high BP moves, and it ends up with a good matchup against the remainder of the game. It's like a slightly later, slightly worse Staryu.
The main problem I have with Chinchou is that it comes at level 30, at a time when the player's team is probably much closer to level 40. This, combined with its slow growth rate, means you'll have to pour tons of experience into it if you want to use it at all. It looks to me just like Bagon but with coverage moves.
Geodude - trade or not-trade? They're somewhat different stories, although the common point is busting through Wattson-Winona (Graveler less so against Winona overall unfortunately), falling off somewhat lategame, and Golem making stronger contributions against Tate&Liza and parts of the E4 compared to Graveler.
The guy named Hugin was asking about Geodude without trading.
It’s been a while since I used Geodude, but it’s definitely D even without trading. It’s the only ground-type other than Mudkip or unevolved Nincada available before Wattson, who is a major pain unless you have an immunity. Then Geodude evolves at 25(really 26), doesn’t need TMs, and has a solid matchup against the next 3 gyms(if you have death fodder for Flannery). Yes, it falls off against the late-game water spam, but even without trading Geodude has basically carried me through boss fights before.
I personally don't think it's that great against Norman and Winona. Graveler can 1v1 most of Norman's Pokemon, but in order to sweep, it needs a lot of potions (and time; magnitude from base 95 physical attack doesn't hurt Slaking much). It's worse against Winona, as she has water gun, steel wing, and earthquake while Graveler has rock throw.
e: Alright let's deal with the others.

Seviper - Speed isn't that bad - still outpacing most route trainers and a lot of major battles' slower mons. Movepool works well as a mixed attacker - the special Bite/Crunch and Flamethrower pair well with Sludge Bomb and Earthquake if you choose to use it, allowing Seviper to put in work in pretty much every major battle in the game, Tate&Liza being pretty much the only hard no and even there Seviper can help out if needed. It's fairly comparable to the also D rank Grimer, having roughly the same level of power on Sludge Bomb and more special attacking power with a little more speed in exchange for lessened bulk.
I still think Seviper should be a tier lower than Grimer. The main thing I see setting them apart is growth rate. When given 166375 points each, Grimer reaches level 55, while Seviper only reaches level 52. It's not a problem for the first half of the game, but it severely limits what Seviper can do against the Elite Four. It also can't do much against Winona unless taught flamethrower.
Mawile - Emerald Mawile is garbage, being quite literally the last Pokemon available before postgame. Ruby Mawile manages F purely on stats alone, being extremely good for that point in the game, and not falling off for a decent while later. Its movepool is unimpressive but suffices for helping against rival 2, somewhat against Wattson and Norman, and can be used a little against Winona although you're better off slaving it at that point, as Intimidate makes it at least somewhat useful for support in battles unlike most pure HM slaves. Essentially Mawile's a decent crutch to get you through earlygame into midgame, and so doesn't reach the levels of awful for F tier.

Whismur - Whismur is a slow, frail, and fairly weak Pokemon who evolves moderately early into a less frail, still slow, still kind of weak Pokemon who doesn't evolve until lategame. Whismur chugs TMs like steroids in a frantic attempt to remain relevant, since the only thing it really has going for it is that, but virtually all those TMs that make it usable come in the mid-to-lategame where Loudred is gasping along, frantically struggling to contribute by constantly spamming a moderately effective Strength against everything when it knows its stats began to fall off at Flannery. After shoving a metric ton of CDs into its gaping maw, Loudred pretends that everything's ok but deep inside it knows that it's really not and that it's still frail and slow. Then it finally manages to drag itself into evolution and it's alright but the game's close to over and Whismur is really really terrible holy shit.
Okay thanks. I would think Loudred stops being terrible when it gets to gym 6 because that's when it gets ice beam. And it's not quite as disgusting as Aron or Trapinch or something because it at least has a chance of becoming Exploud before gym 7. I guess it does look interesting and worth trying out.
 
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I still think Seviper should be a tier lower than Grimer. The main thing I see setting them apart is growth rate. When given 166375 points each, Grimer reaches level 55, while Seviper only reaches level 52. It's not a problem for the first half of the game, but it severely limits what Seviper can do against the Elite Four. It also can't do much against Winona unless taught flamethrower.
... admittedly I haven't tried either Pokémon out, but just saying, a difference of 3 levels in the endgame when experience is very malleable based on your team and what you as the player decide to do is a ludicrous argument for a difference in rank. Have you used either Pokémon? Can you reliably demonstrate that there are opponents in the Elite 4 that are simply too much for Level 52 Seviper which Level 55 Seviper has a much easier time against? Especially when like exp, EVs and IVs are just as - if not more - heavily malleable throughout in-game and hence judging a Pokémon's usefulness on such a meager number of levels is moot at best?
You'd have a point if Seviper was still at the mid-40s or something at endgame, but I'm really struggling to see your argument as presented here.
I also don't understand how it can't do much against Winona without Flamethrower. You have the Sludge Bomb TM at that point, which hits every Pokémon of Winona's harder aside from of course Skarmory, so it still pulls in work with a strong neutral STAB against most her team.
 
#AronIsActuallyGood
Last time I commented on your post, I had to keep it short because I had to leave for somewhere soon after I posted it. This time I might have 30 minutes, so let me try posting something good for once.
Both Aron and Lairon have relatively low physical attack. While they can win a few 1v1's, they generally have to rely on their physical bulk and resistances to do so. It has much lower special defense, so it loses to a lot of special attackers. Even when Aron can win a battle, it does so pretty slowly and doesn't contribute much to "the efficiency".
Immediately after you get Aron, there's a fighting gym followed by a bunch of water Pokemon users on Route 109. Both Combusken and Marshtomp know moves strong against Aron, so it only might help on the Route 110 Brendan/May battle if the player chose Mudkip. It has very low special defense and resists neither electric nor fire, so it can do very little against the next two gyms. Sure, it has STAB rock tomb, but what use is that if Aron gets outsped and 2HKO'd by overheat? Aron seems to have the type advantage against the antagonist teams on Mt. Chimney, but do you really want to deal with supersonic and sand attack 2-3 times per battle? In Ruby and Emerald, it also dies pretty quickly to their magnitudes. When you get to Norman, I guess you can use Aron, but it'll take 4-8 turns to 1v1 each Pokemon by spamming iron tail (especially since it misses so much). Of course, after Norman are the sea routes. After the first set of sea routes is another Brendan/May battle. His/her Grovyle will know leaf blade from this point on, so Aron can't do anything here no matter which starter the player chose. Aron grows slowly, which means that when given a fair share of experience, it'll still be an Aron when the player gets to the Fortree gym. While it seems a rock Pokemon should do okay in a flying gym, Winona can and will use her Skarmory, water gun, and earthquake against this Aron. When Aron/Lairon lets its teammates carry it through the gym, it's greeted by another round of sand attacks and supersonics (and a few confuse rays this time), followed by another round of sea routes. The next gym has two steel-weak Pokemon, so Larion can actually contribute something this time. Just remember that their Claydol knows earthquake and iron tail misses 1/4 of the time. Seafloor Cavern is just another chance to get your Lairon hit by sand attacks, swaggers, and confuse rays. It grows slowly, so it's probably still a Lairon at this point. You get the earthquake TM here, but why would you use it on Lairon when you can use it on something that doesn't get outsped and 2HKO'd by every special attacker? As soon as you finally get through the hell of swaggers, you get to fight a water gym. Then there's Wally in Victory Road. It grows slowly, so it's probably still a Lairon at this point. While only Magneton and Roselia can get around Lairon's resistances, Lairon's special defense is so low that his Gardevoir will 3HKO Lairon through its psychic resistance. When you're on your way through Victory Road, after pouring more than 90000 experience into this Aron, it finally evolves into Aggron. Even if it could start to pull its own weight at that point, all it has left is the Pokemon League. Sidney is relatively easy, but that's not saying much because even stuff like Starmie and Grumpig can almost sweep him. The rest of the Elite Four don't seem to care that Aggron has resistances. Phoebe and Steven have earthquake, Glacia has surf, and Drake and Wallace have both.
With that being said, there is one thing that keeps Aron from being E and possibly moving it to C. Aron is an okay early-game HM slave. It learns all three of the useful HMs before Norman. It's also one of the better cannon fodder Pokemon, due to its steel typing and access to mud-slap.
That took closer to one hour to write. Oh well.
... admittedly I haven't tried either Pokémon out, but just saying, a difference of 3 levels in the endgame when experience is very malleable based on your team and what you as the player decide to do is a ludicrous argument for a difference in rank. Have you used either Pokémon? Can you reliably demonstrate that there are opponents in the Elite 4 that are simply too much for Level 52 Seviper which Level 55 Seviper has a much easier time against? Especially when like exp, EVs and IVs are just as - if not more - heavily malleable throughout in-game and hence judging a Pokémon's usefulness on such a meager number of levels is moot at best?
If Seviper's level is heavily malleable throughout in-game, then the levels of other Pokemon are even more so. If one can get a Seviper to reach level 56 during a game, then why can't he/she get a Muk to level 61? They require the same amount of investment as far as I can tell. Also Winona has earthquake.
 
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Fair, but the main point is that I don't see how reaching level 55 instead of level 52 is such a huge advantage for Muk it would require an entire difference in rank. I admittedly put it a bit rudely, but it's honestly very inconsequential and I can't see how Seviper would be significantly improved by being able to reach Level 55 in the same amount of experience as Muk. It's just very pedantic and insignificant.
 

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If we're really going to do a Muk vs Seviper comparison, please don't ignore that Seviper is very comparable to Muk, though it is ever so slightly worse overall. Seviper, on the other hand, is significantly better than Grimer which doesn't become a Muk until level 38 which is a long way off from where it's caught. Grimer's certainly not a bad Pokemon, but it's also definitely worse than Seviper.
 
In that case, maybe Grimer should move to E. A Pokemon that evolves so late and does nothing but spamming sludge for half the game probably isn't worth keeping in D.
 
Are there any major discussion points at the moment beyond Torchic and perhaps Electrike? I'm scrolling through the tiers and am struggling to find something which seems out of place or worthy of consideration.
 
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