1) Not sure how my reply was incoherent if you read it and understood it. You say it has good pre-gym 4 stats but you only have Seviper for a little portion of that section of the game, so that point is moot.
I think he meant Seviper has good stats relative to a lot of other pre-gym 4 Pokemon, not that its stats are useful before gym 4.
Chimecho’s got 3 major flaws. First, and most obviously, is obtaining the thing. A 2% chance is where you’re hitting the point of actually ranking something down - a 5% encounter rate is bad enough and this is less than half one of those. It’s no Feebas at least, but it’s definitely not good.
That was a nice explanation. To clarify, I was never taking issue with your initial claim. I just wanted to clarify that the fluctuating experience group is one of the strongest exp groups because it takes relatively low experience to level up for most of the game.
Sorry, I was too brief in my post last night. I do speed run drafts where each player picks 3 pokemon (snake draft style) and races to the finish. The team must always stay within 5 levels of each other. For instance, I might first pick Ralts and second pick Numel (starters are free) and race to the end with 3 pokemon that finish around level 47. This is effectively what is being tiered here, since we're shooting for the most efficient route with a team of multiple pokemon.
I agree with all of these flaws. But look at Snorunt, sitting in E tier! Snorunt requires Shoal cave (a completely optional area) be at low tide. You have to navigate the entire cave and find one with a 10% spawn rate, and it comes at the same level as Chimecho! Chimecho came a whole gym earlier and has much better stats than snorunt. Snorunt has to wait until level 42 to become useful. Chimecho also has better coverage and a better experience group.
I definitely agree that Lileep should move down, though it should probably be F rather than E. One of the first things I learned when I got into in-game tiers is that toxic stalling is a bad idea. In-game tiers are based on "return of investment", right? Toxic stalling is a huge time investment, and putting that time into Lileep gets a result that's probably worse than what most D tier Pokemon can do without the time investment. If you can spend time letting Lileep toxic stall opponents, then you might as well spend the same amount of time overleveling a Nosepass and sweeping the game with it. Outside of toxic stalling, Lileep has bad offensive stats, a bad growth rate, a bad evolution level, a bad level up movepool, and a bad TM movepool. It can't even toxic stall properly unless it uses up a lot of potions.
While 50/50 are not great stats admittedly, Ice/Dark does provide good coverage, while Mono Psychic can be underwhelming at times (tho it's great against the Team Grunt Zubats/Golbats). The point about 2-3HKOing random trainers isn't that important either because in-game tier lists focus more on major battles; in an efficient run (which these assume), you are skipping a fair chunk of random trainers anyways. I think this comes back to Chimecho's rarity, which really can't be understated.
Are we looking at the same pokemon? Chimecho has 75 HP, 80 DEf and 90 SpDef. Snorunt has 50/50/50 for those 3 stats, and Glalie has 80/80/80. Chimecho’s defensive stats are basically the same as glalie, and it’s offensive stats are better...
There are more to a pokemon than raw stats. As I said in my previous post, Ice/Dark coverage is useful (only resisted by steels I think). There are other factors at play like availability, use in major battles, etc.
Wrong gen. In gen 7, Chimecho got one of the largest BST boosts, gaining +30 overall BST, 10 in each of HP, Def, and SpD.
Thank you! I guess we were looking at different pokemon...
I agree, but in this case the random trainers are important because that's how you're grinding your chimecho/snorunt. You're gonna need to face 14 levels worth of random trainers to get Snorunt up to a Glalie, which will be a huge struggle given how hard of a time Snorunt has fainting random pokemon.
While Snorunt does have to endure ~14-12 levels to become a decent Pokemon (and even then it gets Ice Beam in between to pack some punch), Chimecho doesn't have anywhere near as promising of an endgame. Glalie also has the benefit of not subsisting of any TMs to perform its roles, while Chimecho need TMs to salvage its awful level-up movepool. Regice is also guilty of being TM-reliant as well as being 10 times greater of a hassle to obtain than Snorunt, though obviously Regice has superior stats and more good matchups as its advantage.
I'm not going to deny that training Snorunt to the point of usefulness is a chore, but at least Snorunt can grind against the Zubats and Golbats in Shoal Cave until it gets Ice Beam for more bite, in which case it starts looking a little better, not to mention you get a complimentary NeverMeltIce from Snorunt's catch area.
Sableye and Pikachu have their strong niche matchups without requiring that you grind over 50,000 exp into them. Sableye can train on the 2nd gym, making progress while gaining levels and then defeating Brawley. Pikachu has a whole ocean in front of him before gym 8/Wallace. Snorunt, as you said yourself, has to stay in shoal cave and kill zubats before it can contribute against the Elite 4.
Snorunt also falls into this category.
This argument would work against near every pokemon in the game. What is Snorunt doing but leaching experience away from Mudkip/Rayquaza? They could both beat the end game more easily than Glalie. Training anything bad will be leaching exp from something in S/A tier that could undoubtedly use it better. We can't fault a pokemon for "leeching" experience.
Even if you solo gyms 6-8, it wouldn't be efficient. You would need to heal as you setup Calm Minds and you would, in general, need TM support as Punchshroom said. Also, that 2% encounter rate in an optional section of an optional area really bites for a mono Psychic type. I'm sure a fair amount of new players looking at this list wouldn't even know where to find Chimecho.
This isn't a valid point, since there's not only a list in the OP right now of availabilities, but the final writeups will include the location of the Pokemon.
If having to use a hyper potion in between calm minds is inefficient, adding 30 minutes to your run while you grind a snorunt is absurd.
Snorunt is in a more out of the way area than Chimecho.
It has 50 in every stat, comes at the end of the game and doesnt evolve for 14 levels. It is extremely hard to train.
Snorunt is far more of a time sink than Chimecho. Chimecho can fight against trainers and won't force you to stop and slowly grind a pokemon for 14 levels (or constantly send it in and switch it out).
Yeah that's not worth it. But chimecho can at least contribute and gain levels versus gym 6.
Wait what?
But isn't this the whole point? If a snorunt needs to sit in your party with an EXP share for 14 levels until it can contribute, surely this is a steep enough resource investment for snorunt to be F tier.
Nobody is advocating for Snorunt to be something absurd like A tier. Most of us are saying it is slightly better than Chimecho thanks to non-reliance on TMs (which you haven't refuted) and it is much easier to find than Chimecho (2% is minuscule and whether you like it or not Chimecho's patch of grass is optional - I know it's not valid in terms of tiering, but my first few playthroughs as a kid, I had no idea that patch existed. Point is, Chimecho is hard to obtain). And as another user said earlier, Snorunt can hold its own against stuff like zubat (plus the EXP share exists). All of this leads to a couple favorable matchups like Drake, which Chimecho doesn't have without being inefficient, and yes using items in battle contributes to inefficiency.
But Chimecho needs the EXP Share as well because it won't be hitting hard against enough opponents in the early run to keep up. If you can find pokemon for Chimecho to contribute against, then you can find pokemon for Snorunt to contribute against.
If Chimecho is notably worse because its grass patch is 20 steps out of your way then idk what to say.
Chimecho is way more reliant on TMs. This doesn't outweigh Snorunt's cons.
This just isn't true. Chimecho has 95 SpAtk while Snorunt has 50. It isn't even close.
I didn't say it was out of the way; I said it was optional and that is true. But more importantly, again, Chimecho is found 2% of the time. If that's not hard to find, then idk what to say. And also Snorunt's coverage helps it once it learns Ice Beam and Crunch, which, if you find a Lv. 30 Snorunt, is only 4 levels away. Using the exp. share for 4 levels (or max 8) isn't so terrible to limit a pokemon to F tier. Neither pokemon is great. Snorunt is slightly better
A level 30 Snorunt is found 3.3% of the time. I think that sticking to the average, 28, is a good idea.
Chimecho's area is not optional, its section is. Hence why I responded:
To which you responded:
Edit: :/
