np: Stage 3-3 - Maybe we should have used that warp pipe back in 1-1 after all...

I jest (I think). Stage 3-3 of the Suspect Test Process is now in effect, featuring Manaphy and Latias as the lone Suspects on the Suspect Ladder. Not much to say here but that this round will last the typical month, after which we will construct the voting pool and commence voting shortly thereafter. Since both Suspects have been voted OU twice already in Stage 3, the only way that we will not require Stage 3-4 is if either Suspect (or both) is voted Uber by the critical 2/3 + 1 margin.

Though it should have no bearing on the actual testing phase, I will state that we are returning to paragraph submissions as mentioned in my recent announcement. Besides that, standard fare—post and discuss your experiences on the Suspect Ladder. As usual, this thread is to be almost completely devoid of theorymon.

Before people begin to ask: is there any rating\deviation requirement to be eligible to vote (to submit paragraphs)?

if there were it wouldnt make a difference on how much effort i want people to put into the test

Jumpman16 said:

the only way that we will not require Stage 3-4 is if either Suspect (or both) is voted Uber by the critical 2/3 + 1 margin.

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So if both Manaphy and Latias are again voted OU, we'll still require Stage 3-4? Or will both of them being voted OU as the only Suspects make them legitimately OU?

scorchedsky said:

So if both Manaphy and Latias are again voted OU, we'll still require Stage 3-4? Or will both of them being voted OU as the only Suspects make them legitimately OU?

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If they voted OU by over 50%: No 3-4

If they are voted Uber by more than 67%: No 3-4

If they are voted Uber by more than 50% but less than 67%: Stage 3-4

Or at least that is how I understand it.

Well Manaphy will probably be the center of the discussion like chomp was last round. I feel this test is very important, as Manaphy has had the most people abstain from voting than the other suspects of 3-1 and 3-2. I think if it is Uber it will most likely be under the Offensive Characteristic, though for now I think it could quite possibly be OU.

Last test, I waited so long to post a mega-post outlining my thoughts on the suspects that when real life came calling I'd missed my chance completely. So now I'm going to be posting right from the get-go.

First thought on this test so far? It seems to me that people aren't quite as prepared for certain teams as they were previously.

Question: The announcement about 3-3 stated that voters are going to have to explain the discrepancy between 3-1's Manaphy result and 3-2's Manaphy result. Is this still true, or is this just the standard "explain what you're going to use to vote, characterize your involvement, etc." fare?

capefeather said:

Question: The announcement about 3-3 stated that voters are going to have to explain the discrepancy between 3-1's Manaphy result and 3-2's Manaphy result. Is this still true, or is this just the standard "explain what you're going to use to vote, characterize your involvement, etc." fare?

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I am also interested in the answer to this question. I did not participate in the test where Shaymin-S was included, so I have no explanation as to why Manaphy was voted "less uber" once it was removed. Does this mean that I need not bother with 3-3, since my paragraph will not be accepted without this information?

Haunter said:

Before people begin to ask: is there any rating\deviation requirement to be eligible to vote (to submit paragraphs)?

Click to expand...

Jumpman16 said:

if there were it wouldnt make a difference on how much effort i want people to put into the test

Click to expand...

Does this mean that we can all vote (If we submit paragraphs?)

there's a bitter sweet for me with another test.

I have been able to use Manaphy to great effectiveness with out rain support. I put Sub in Rest's place and use the same EV's and everything, and it is pretty beastly.
but i still am not quite sure it is way too good for the OU metagame

Where can I actually find the rules about suspect tests and voting? I've looked over the forum but not found them.

I'm playing under the alt "free manaphy." and so far I'm undefeated with a CRE of 1087. Tail Glow Manaphy, 3 attacks with Wacan Berry is a very good and underrated set, allowing you to survive Scarf Rotom's, and Latias' Thunderbolts. I would probably find the Life Orb set too draining, along with Sandstorm from Tyranitar, to Manaphy's health. Tyranitar is a good partner to Manaphy if you aren't running a LO set, allowing you to trap Latias that are actually pretty common. Scizor also provides revenge killing capabilities, along with providing a second answer to Latias, as well as Tyranitar, and Salamence.

Oh, I just lost one...it seems as though my team relies too much on other Tail Glow Manaphy losing the speed tie to 3 of my base 100 Speed Pokemon...

On the day it was free on the ladder I subbed it in for Suicune, and the subglow set is devastating. I'm not entirely familiar with Manaphy only having played suspect a few times, but it is really powerful. What I've found is that the power is lacking at times, though, as it failed to OHKO a lead Metagross with +4 Surf. Maybe more special attack EVs? I'll try Modest with max HP and Special Attack next.

scorchedsky said:

So if both Manaphy and Latias are again voted OU, we'll still require Stage 3-4? Or will both of them being voted OU as the only Suspects make them legitimately OU?

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For those not on IRC in #stark at the time, this was discussed at very great length. The short version is that i have always felt and maintained that there should be consistency with what it takes for a pokemon to be voted OU and what it takes for a pokemon to be voted uber. As Colin's proposal was understood before today, 49% or less OU votes for all Suspects in a Stage would be enough to end Stage 3, whereas uber votes for all remaining Suspects that do not reach the critical mass ("2/3 + 1", or votes that are "50.1-66.6%") would not similarly end a test. A few of the Tiering Contributors have realized that this may not be the best way of honoring votes in Stage 3, and we will keep you posted as to the impact on actual testing.

Also, some Tiering Contributors have realized that we ideally should be testing Garchomp right now in Stage 3-3, since the Stage 3-1 environment in which it was tested (with Latios and Shaymin-S) is considerably different from the Stage 3-2 environment. While I realize this is not "ideal", it is probably the right thing to do. You will similarly be kept posted on our decision regarding this potential change.

I'll share my shortlived experiences.

Overall, I've seen about 1/3 RD 1/3 Teams with Tyranitar on them 1/3 normal teams. The teams with Tyranitar mess me up the most, mostly because of the sandstorm. The normal teams are the 2nd in difficulty, as my Suspect team isn't that great to deal with a standard OU + Manaphy metagmae. The Rain Dance teams are easiest to beat for me.

No you read right.

Chomp may get retested only because people feel that to be properly voted uber he should be consistently voted uber twice in the same metagame. Basically a last-resort effort to bring him back.... not that I mind, of course.

Oh cool but only 1 suspect test too late >_>. I'm happy to see that paragraphs are required again, hopefully it will weed out some of the less knowledgeable voters. Maybe I'll even play enough to vote this time :D

yeah and maybe we will have pleased the mighty goofball enough so that he may accept our humble voting process for what it is (read: change yor sig)

Articanus said:

No you read right.

Chomp may get retested only because people feel that to be properly voted uber he should be consistently voted uber twice in the same metagame. Basically a last-resort effort to bring him back.... not that I mind, of course.

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this isnt a last resort effort to bring anything back or keep anything in play, btw. even though i am the person who suggested this, as i've stated multiple times in past suspect threads i am one of the last people who could have any possible personal inclinations or agendas for specific pokemon because i play about two standard battles a month on shoddy on average the last two years and i've played less than five suspect battles all time (latias). my suggestions may not result in the most convenient policies but that actually goes against the very nature of this test in the first place

capefeather said:

Question: The announcement about 3-3 stated that voters are going to have to explain the discrepancy between 3-1's Manaphy result and 3-2's Manaphy result. Is this still true, or is this just the standard "explain what you're going to use to vote, characterize your involvement, etc." fare?

Click to expand...

just the latter, i was more citing a clear reason for wanting to return to paragraph submissions than wanting to retroactively fix the manaphy vote (even though one could argue that this the right thing to do)

If Garchomp goes into this stage and gets voted Uber, again, does this mean we will go into a stage 3-4 without Garhcomp to see if Manaphy is really OU?

First impression on this metagame:

Rain Dance with Manaphy is devastating, easily sweeping teams underprepared for it. Rain Dance is a lot more common here than normal, making it a neccessity to pack a weather changer like Anomasnow(who also provides a solid counter to Manaphy), or Tyranitar. Normal teams are pretty easy to overcome with Manaphy's sky-high special attack after a tail glow. My opinion thus far is that Manaphy is quite broken in this metagame.

capefeather said:

Question: The announcement about 3-3 stated that voters are going to have to explain the discrepancy between 3-1's Manaphy result and 3-2's Manaphy result. Is this still true, or is this just the standard "explain what you're going to use to vote, characterize your involvement, etc." fare?

Click to expand...

In my (not very humble) opinion, the reason is very simple: People have realised that Manaphy should have been OU WAAAAY back in D/P. Thus, there were a lot more Manaphy for OU votes.

Oh, and to those of you who think Latias is Uber, here's your chance to prove it. Show us all exactly how Latias is Uber. Of course, you'll likely fail, but still: Clogging up Shoddy battle discusion with "Latias should be Uber, lol" shouldn't happen again.

To be really honest, I'm not sure about testing the same metagame twice. I think that the only way in which Garchomp coming back to Suspect could change anything is if one of the others were banned. Then again, if a suspect is so controversial then perhaps a longer test is needed. But how likely is it for the results to be different, and if they do turn out to be significantly different, how much do we care about the first voting result's impact on the second voting result?

According to the anouncement stage 3-3 will ONLY include latias and manaphy and users will be required to submot paragraphs in order to vote

http://www.smogon.com/forums/announcement.php?f=43&a=107

To be honest if we were to retest Garchomp we should give Shaymin-s a fair chance. It has never been in a vote were paragraphs where a requirement. After a dicussion on #Stark i feel the paragraphs seem to be the best arbitrator for who gets to vote. Lets see people actually explain why it is uber other than "flinch hax". Ultimately if we were to test Garchomp again i think that it would feel like stage 3 had been a complete waste of time, and i think we have, as a community come to a consensus on Garchomp's tiering.

iKitsune said:

To be honest if we were to retest Garchomp we should give Shaymin-s a fair chance. It has never been in a vote were paragraphs where a requirement. After a dicussion on #Stark i feel the paragraphs seem to be the best arbitrator for who gets to vote. Lets see people actually explain why it is uber other than "flinch hax". Ultimately if we were to test Garchomp again i think that it would feel like stage 3 had been a complete waste of time, and i think we have, as a community come to a consensus on Garchomp's tiering.

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I'm not gonna lie, I actually agree with you on the Shaymin-s thing, because I believe the paragraph would have a large impact on Skymin's tiering. In fact, the paragraphs would probably impact his tiering way more than any other suspect due to a lot of people voting him uber for "flinchhax" and a lot of other reasons sparked by emotion (though of course there were a few good reasons too).

However, I don't believe Garchomp has ever gone through a suspect test where paragraphs were a requirement either. In fact, I think those started just after the Shaymin-s vote. Therefore he would technically have to be in this test too. The only non-paragraph pokemon that wouldn't deserve a test would be DX-S, because we had to resort to an early ban for him which basically took away any chances he had of being OU.