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Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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After a little less than 2 weeks of hard-ish work and many many pointless arguments, I, as well as everyone else credited in this document, proudly present



1v1 Throwback


Wut it is: Basically, we made a resource document and VR on how to play 1v1 in Generations 1-5.

The Google Doc with all the rules n' shit: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yAo6KA4PxZgodGXeoo2r6pYXbRNwmlryMNjDNObbz6c

Where to discuss all this stuff: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/old-gens-other-metas-mega-thread.3597495/page-2 Not all generations are listed yet!

We hope you enjoy!
 
After a little less than 2 weeks of hard-ish work and many many pointless arguments, I, as well as everyone else credited in this document, proudly present



1v1 Throwback


Wut it is: Basically, we made a resource document and VR on how to play 1v1 in Generations 1-5.

The Google Doc with all the rules n' shit: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yAo6KA4PxZgodGXeoo2r6pYXbRNwmlryMNjDNObbz6c

Where to discuss all this stuff: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/old-gens-other-metas-mega-thread.3597495/page-2 Not all generations are listed yet!

We hope you enjoy!
i was forced into this ;(((
 

DEG

ADIOS COMPADRES
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Suspect Test 3.0: Kyurem-Black.



The 1v1 Leadership team has voted upon Kyurem-Black to be suspected before Power Construct, as the result of this suspect test may change the results of the Power Construct's suspect test. The test will run for 2 weeks until Monday 16th of October at 23:59 GMT and the requirements are 2600 COIL on the 1v1 ladder. You are not required to make a fresh alt because there will be a new ladder with Kyurem-Black being BANNED. Once you've achieved your requirements create a Smogon conversation with me with a screenshot of your /rank and your vote, that way we can keep the thread clean and the vote private. Make sure to abuse Kyurem-Black on the ladder while you can! Polite discussion is highly encouraged, please do not talk about the Pokemon unless you have tested to not plague the thread with fake-statements. Kyurem-Black will need a 60% majority to get banned.

Justifications: "Kyurem-Black was always allowed in the 1v1 metagame even since Generation 5, and it was always one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. In Generation 7, it gained new tools in Z-moves and the metagame shifts favored the usage of Kyurem-Black and its sets.

Main problem in Kyurem-Black that it has many viable sets, while unpredictability isn't a problem and shouldn't be weighted too much while deciding, but these multiple sets of Kyurem-Black comes with little to no opportunity loss. These sets combined with its raw bulk allows it to defeat a good portion of the metagame easily. People said that Kyurem-Black forced people to run 100% counters that check all of its sets and not just the popular ones because you cannot know what it runs, and these Pokemon are limited."

Choice Scarf
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Outrage
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

Icium-Z
Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 200 Def / 44 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Iron Head
- Freeze Shock

Choice Band
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Outrage
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

Groundium-Z
Kyurem-Black @ Groundium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 16 HP / 236 Def / 248 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Rock Tomb
- Ice Beam


The B value for this test is 20. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rank) and plug that into the following formula:

N=20/log2(40*GXE/2600)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing)

Happy suspect and discussion!
Join the 1v1 room for live discussion!
 
Suspect Test 3.0: Kyurem-Black.



The 1v1 Leadership team has voted upon Kyurem-Black to be suspected before Power Construct, as the result of this suspect test may change the results of the Power Construct's suspect test. The test will run for 2 weeks until Monday 16th of October at 23:59 GMT and the requirements are 2600 COIL on the 1v1 ladder. You are not required to make a fresh alt because there will be a new ladder with Kyurem-Black being BANNED. Once you've achieved your requirements create a Smogon conversation with me with a screenshot of your /rank and your vote, that way we can keep the thread clean and the vote private. Make sure to abuse Kyurem-Black on the ladder while you can! Polite discussion is highly encouraged, please do not talk about the Pokemon unless you have tested to not plague the thread with fake-statements. Kyurem-Black will need a 60% majority to get banned.

Justifications: "Kyurem-Black was always allowed in the 1v1 metagame even since Generation 5, and it was always one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. In Generation 7, it gained new tools in Z-moves and the metagame shifts favored the usage of Kyurem-Black and its sets.

Main problem in Kyurem-Black that it has many viable sets, while unpredictability isn't a problem and shouldn't be weighted too much while deciding, but these multiple sets of Kyurem-Black comes with little to no opportunity loss. These sets combined with its raw bulk allows it to defeat a good portion of the metagame easily. People said that Kyurem-Black forced people to run 100% counters that check all of its sets and not just the popular ones because you cannot know what it runs, and these Pokemon are limited."

Choice Scarf
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Outrage
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

Icium-Z
Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 200 Def / 44 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Iron Head
- Freeze Shock

Choice Band
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Outrage
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

Groundium-Z
Kyurem-Black @ Groundium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 16 HP / 236 Def / 248 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Rock Tomb
- Ice Beam


The B value for this test is 20. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rank) and plug that into the following formula:

N=20/log2(40*GXE/2600)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing)

Happy suspect and discussion!
Join the 1v1 room for live discussion!
I swear this is the best thing that's gonna happen to 1v1
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
First of all I can't believe the suspect test has been postponed this late; from the beginning of this gen Kyurem-B was a fearsome threat that was overcentralizing with couple number of sets that is empowered by its monstrous defensive stats that laughs at Electroweb + Flash Cannon from Air Balloon Magnezone, +1 Outrage from Mega Gyarados, and Moonblast from Tapu Lele. That is not to mention Kyurem-B has been the best, if not, one of the best scarfers for generations. Until last generation I thought Kyurem-B is one-dimentional to certain extent because it needed Choice Scarf to deal with majority of the metagame but thanks to Gamefreak, a new toy called Icium Z forced all teams to naturally prepare for a fat 'mon that can tank a hit that is not reliant on Sturdy. This Ice Dragon is a cheap cash money in any portion of the ladder that has one of the best natural bulk / mixed offensive stats / movepool / ability (Teravolt) in the metagame, with the unpredictability rivaling Charizard which has two megas. More than couple EV spreads are viable to take on different threats, and specifically preparing for this leads to less versatile teams. I believe it is finally a time to get rid of this dragon from this tier.
 

Choice Scarf
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Outrage
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

Icium-Z
Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 200 Def / 44 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Iron Head
- Freeze Shock

Choice Band
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Outrage
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

Groundium-Z
Kyurem-Black @ Groundium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 16 HP / 236 Def / 248 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Rock Tomb
- Ice Beam
Why are you putting Groundium Kyurem as a set here? Haven't we already established that it's just a shitty meme set? Specs or Weakness Policy would be better imo.

Also, I don't think I need to explain how I feel about this suspect. But for those who haven't gotten it by now... YES. BAN. KILL. DELET!!!!
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Why are you putting Groundium Kyurem as a set here? Haven't we already established that it's just a shitty meme set? Specs or Weakness Policy would be better imo.
While Choice Specs and Weakness Policy are possible options, Choice Specs sets are almost always outclassed by Icium Z which threatens much larger portion of the meta and Weakness Policy works against Mega Metagross and that's about it. You are faster than Mega Gyarados which will press Outrage, Mega Mawile that will press Iron Head / Play Rough, and Magearna which will press Fleur Cannon.

On the other hand, Groudium-Z can simultaneously threaten Mega Metagross, Mega Mawile, Magearna, and other Steel-types that are not bulky enough. This isn't merely a meme created by UselessCrab™. It is actually another viable set that Kyurem-B abuses to circumvent around its checks.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
While Choice Specs and Weakness Policy are possible options, Choice Specs sets are almost always outclassed by Icium Z which threatens much larger portion of the meta and Weakness Policy works against Mega Metagross and that's about it. You are faster than Mega Gyarados which will press Outrage, Mega Mawile that will press Iron Head / Play Rough, and Magearna which will press Fleur Cannon.

On the other hand, Groudium-Z can simultaneously threaten Mega Metagross, Mega Mawile, Magearna, and other Steel-types that are not bulky enough. This isn't merely a meme created by UselessCrab™. It is actually another viable set that Kyurem-B abuses to circumvent around its checks.
I feel like you don't actually know what these sets do exactly.

Choice Specs isn't to get a Strong Ice STAB, it's used to circumvent Physical Walls. Choice Specs Kyurem-B not only performs nearly as well against most things that Icium-Z KyuB beats, but better against Physical Walls like Buzzwole, Specially weak Pokemon like Mega Mawile and Crustle, and can also act as a lure for Mixed walls like Mega Slowbro and Mega Venusaur (which can beat Kyurem-B by simply correctly predicting Subzero Slammer with a Protect)

As for Weakness Policy, WP KyuB is slower than Gyara, unless you're not running a -spe nature? So that's easy enough. And Weakness Policy triggers against Dragon-types as well which gives it an advantage against Defensive Mega Charizard X, which Choice Scarf can lose to. As for Mawile, simply roosting on a predicted sucker punch turns what would be a counter into a 50/50.

So the only real advantage Groundium Z has over Kyurem-B's other sets, is that it can beat Mega Metagross, Magearna, Mega Aggron, and Mega Mawile. But that's it! It doesn't preform as well against walls, physically bulky pokemon, or even Aegislash which Bulky Icium Z does better against. And then there are the other Steel-types Genesect, Celesteela, and Kartana where Groundium Z doesn't change the outcome at all. And while yes, beating 4 of the strongest pokemon in 1v1 is undeniably a good thing, it's just not worth it. All four can be beaten by most Fire-types or Ground-types. So whenever you use 1 Kyurem-B you can have to use Groundium Z, just ask yourself is it really worth it.

And we still have to remember that Groundium Z had virtually no usage at 1630 weighted stats (or at least it didn't back in August's ladder / Suspect Ladder) while Choice Specs, Haban, and Weakness Policy sets DID.
 

DEG

ADIOS COMPADRES
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I don't get it, why is there no discussion on this subject. After one week of a Kyurem-Black-less metagame, I'm pretty sure both sides need to argument and convince the other side. Without that there's no use of suspect testing, I get it you're discussing it in the room but I'd like to you to put it here. Anyways, I do not really think Kyurem-Black should be banned at all.

Kyurem-Black has the all-around stats and everything else but it just falls short against other threats. Also as a Pokemon that has been the glue for 1v1 for so long, I'm pretty sure there's lot of changes in the metagame that we would like to discuss.

Kyurem-Black is able to beat a good portion of the metagame but it cannot brainlessly beat the other portion, also some of the Pokemon it beats can be adjusted allowing them to beat Kyurem-Black. Meanwhile, this Pokemon doesn't even restrict teambuilding, there's a plethora of Pokemon that are good and are able to defeat Kyurem-Black to name a few, Mega Charizard X, Mega Gyarados, Jirachi, Fini, Primarina, Mega Mawile, Mega Heracross... All of them and more are capable to easily beat the suspected Pokemon. Now ya'll are going to jump on me and name me a few sets that are never seen like Electrium-Z and Groundium-Z, well can't any Pokemon beat another with such coverage moves? Plus they come with a big opportunity cost which makes Kyurem-Black lose against another bunch of Pokemon. Now I guess we should focus in Tournaments format and not ladder format where Kyurem-Black can run everything, but still the tournament formats is filled with much more Pokemon and unpredictable Pokemon that can really give Kyurem-Black a heart time adapting.

On another note, I don't really see what differentiate Kyurem-Black from other threats like Tapu Koko, Sleep abusers, Mega Gyarados and others, they all are good and borderline but still nothing pushing them over the edge. Plus with that ladder being without Kyurem-Black the metagame is much more worse, there's lot of Sturdy Pokemon that are gaining the opportunity to double in usage, this pushes the metagame to be centralized more and more around Sturdy users which might end up bad. I urge you to discuss and show your opinion on this thread, so I and others can read where you're coming from and justify yourself.
 
Since y'all are cooling
I don't get it, why is there no discussion on this subject. After one week of a Kyurem-Black-less metagame, I'm pretty sure both sides need to argument and convince the other side. Without that there's no use of suspect testing, I get it you're discussing it in the room but I'd like to you to put it here. Anyways, I do not really think Kyurem-Black should be banned at all.

Kyurem-Black has the all-around stats and everything else but it just falls short against other threats. Also as a Pokemon that has been the glue for 1v1 for so long, I'm pretty sure there's lot of changes in the metagame that we would like to discuss.

Kyurem-Black is able to beat a good portion of the metagame but it cannot brainlessly beat the other portion, also some of the Pokemon it beats can be adjusted allowing them to beat Kyurem-Black. Meanwhile, this Pokemon doesn't even restrict teambuilding, there's a plethora of Pokemon that are good and are able to defeat Kyurem-Black to name a few, Mega Charizard X, Mega Gyarados, Jirachi, Fini, Primarina, Mega Mawile, Mega Heracross... All of them and more are capable to easily beat the suspected Pokemon. Now ya'll are going to jump on me and name me a few sets that are never seen like Electrium-Z and Groundium-Z, well can't any Pokemon beat another with such coverage moves? Plus they come with a big opportunity cost which makes Kyurem-Black lose against another bunch of Pokemon. Now I guess we should focus in Tournaments format and not ladder format where Kyurem-Black can run everything, but still the tournament formats is filled with much more Pokemon and unpredictable Pokemon that can really give Kyurem-Black a heart time adapting.

On another note, I don't really see what differentiate Kyurem-Black from other threats like Tapu Koko, Sleep abusers, Mega Gyarados and others, they all are good and borderline but still nothing pushing them over the edge. Plus with that ladder being without Kyurem-Black the metagame is much more worse, there's lot of Sturdy Pokemon that are gaining the opportunity to double in usage, this pushes the metagame to be centralized more and more around Sturdy users which might end up bad. I urge you to discuss and show your opinion on this thread, so I and others can read where you're coming from and justify yourself.
Right, since y'all are cooling your boots, I'll be the first one to post.

No, the problem with KyuB has been its ability to be a monstrous physical offender, and a special offender capable of killing its physical counters. This is not even about unpredictability of the KyuB, it's about how it limits team-building to a very narrow field of like 3-4 mons, namely Genesect, Terrakion, Metagross-M. Every other possible counter has a viable KyuB set to beat it. For example, bulky band beat MegaGyarados, Megacross, MegaCharizardX, Primarina, Tapu Fini, while specs beat MawileM and some others....

Now, you think we may be jumping at you stating Electrium or Groundium. But the point here is that you need a dedicated KyuB counter in your team to not kill it! The last time such a team-builder narrowing Pokemon happened, Marshadow was banned!! And I see no reason or fact how KyuB is no way worse, broken and unfit for the meta than Marshadow was.


The difference between TapuKoko, sleep, MGyara others(A) and KyuB (B) is that (A) forest not need a team to have a dedicated counter in it, does not fit the term broken. Sturdy is seeing usage because it has hardly been any time since KyuB was not allowed in, and already there are counter strats like sableye-mega, Venusaur-M, Chansey, amongst others to counter Sturdies


#BanKyuB
#EnoughIsEnough
#GoBackToCoolingYourBoots
#OMG1V1PLDraftOnToday4PMESTDon'tMissIt
 
I would make a big huge post discussing my opinions. Thing is, I already did that back in August. So I'm just gonna re-link my old Kyurem-Ban post. While some info may be outdated, I think the point it's trying to make still stands.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-kyurem-black-suspect-test.3587523/page-23#post-7473432

Also, concerning DEG's thoughts on the Kyurem-less meta, I personally believe that it's a whole lot better. With Kyurem-Black gone, you can spend more time preparing for the rest of the metagame, which includes Sturdy users. Yes, they have certainly gotten more common, but I feel that it still isn't unbeatable. But if Kyurem-Black is banned, and it really turns out that the Sturdies become too much (which they won't, trust me), just suspect them! Remember, we don't wanna check broken with broken.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
I don't get it, why is there no discussion on this subject. After one week of a Kyurem-Black-less metagame, I'm pretty sure both sides need to argument and convince the other side. Without that there's no use of suspect testing, I get it you're discussing it in the room but I'd like to you to put it here. Anyways, I do not really think Kyurem-Black should be banned at all.

Kyurem-Black has the all-around stats and everything else but it just falls short against other threats. Also as a Pokemon that has been the glue for 1v1 for so long, I'm pretty sure there's lot of changes in the metagame that we would like to discuss.

Kyurem-Black is able to beat a good portion of the metagame but it cannot brainlessly beat the other portion, also some of the Pokemon it beats can be adjusted allowing them to beat Kyurem-Black. Meanwhile, this Pokemon doesn't even restrict teambuilding, there's a plethora of Pokemon that are good and are able to defeat Kyurem-Black to name a few, Mega Charizard X, Mega Gyarados, Jirachi, Fini, Primarina, Mega Mawile, Mega Heracross... All of them and more are capable to easily beat the suspected Pokemon. Now ya'll are going to jump on me and name me a few sets that are never seen like Electrium-Z and Groundium-Z, well can't any Pokemon beat another with such coverage moves? Plus they come with a big opportunity cost which makes Kyurem-Black lose against another bunch of Pokemon. Now I guess we should focus in Tournaments format and not ladder format where Kyurem-Black can run everything, but still the tournament formats is filled with much more Pokemon and unpredictable Pokemon that can really give Kyurem-Black a heart time adapting.

On another note, I don't really see what differentiate Kyurem-Black from other threats like Tapu Koko, Sleep abusers, Mega Gyarados and others, they all are good and borderline but still nothing pushing them over the edge. Plus with that ladder being without Kyurem-Black the metagame is much more worse, there's lot of Sturdy Pokemon that are gaining the opportunity to double in usage, this pushes the metagame to be centralized more and more around Sturdy users which might end up bad. I urge you to discuss and show your opinion on this thread, so I and others can read where you're coming from and justify yourself.
Sorry for one liner.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-kyurem-black-suspect-test.3587523/page-27#post-7493875
 

Osra

Charm Caster
is a Pre-Contributor
Personally, I don't see this suspect as trying to determine if Kyurem-Black is broken, anyone competent knows that it isn't. I see this more as the community making a choice as to which kind of 1v1 metagame they want, since 1v1 with Kyurem is very different from 1v1 without it. For example, in the meta without it, there would end up being things that rise to Marshadow levels of overcentralization, thus requiring further bans and/or suspect tests despite the fact that they never would have even been considered suspect-worthy in a meta with Kyurem allowed, however, this doesn't mean the meta would be objectively bad, just different from what we're used to. Here's a bit of a quick outline as to what the two kinds of metagames would be, from what I know of 1v1, based on the results of this suspect test.

Kyurem is banned
  • All mons previously threatened by Kyurem get a boost in usage, and a lot more freedom in using their EVs, particularly Gyarados and Charizard
  • Charizard becomes the new "top" of the meta, in terms of how many potential sets you have to choose from all in one mon
  • Tapu Koko no longer has a top usage mon keeping it from being broken/overcentralizing
  • The three best mons in the metagame (Tapu Koko, Charizard-X, Gyarados) lock into a triangular relationship
  • New potential viable sets get to rise with the meta's minimum power curve dropping
  • Steel types lose even more of their dominance over the metagame
  • Overall diversity is increased massively, leading to an even less consistent metagame

Kyurem is not banned
  • Steel types continue to rise, using Kyurem as their main reason for being viable
  • Metagame continues to be made artificially bulky, due to Kyurem's Outrage/Fusion Bolt being the most common benchmark for EV investment
  • More potentially broken mons could be unbanned, using the high power curve as their warrant for unban
  • Kyurem continues to force guessing games as to which set it's using, as well as whether you even beat those sets or not
  • Niche sets made to counter specifically Kyurem will continue to rise in usage (Fairium Tapu Koko, Fairium Primarina, etc)
  • Mons that could potentially rise to cancerous levels are kept in check/hindered by Kyurem's presence
  • Metagame stagnates until Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon come to shake things up

I know speculating what the metagame "might" be is typically frowned upon, but that's essentially all that this suspect test is about, since Kyurem-Black's effect on the metagame is much more significant than the actual mon itself. Regardless of whether my particular outlines come true or not, 1v1 with Kyurem and 1v1 without Kyurem would almost certainly be very different from each other, and it is up to us to decide which version of 1v1 we believe would be the healthiest for us and newer players who would legitimately want to learn the meta.
 
I would make a big huge post discussing my opinions. Thing is, I already did that back in August. So I'm just gonna re-link my old Kyurem-Ban post. While some info may be outdated, I think the point it's trying to make still stands.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-kyurem-black-suspect-test.3587523/page-23#post-7473432

Also, concerning DEG's thoughts on the Kyurem-less meta, I personally believe that it's a whole lot better. With Kyurem-Black gone, you can spend more time preparing for the rest of the metagame, which includes Sturdy users. Yes, they have certainly gotten more common, but I feel that it still isn't unbeatable. But if Kyurem-Black is banned, and it really turns out that the Sturdies become too much (which they won't, trust me), just suspect them! Remember, we don't wanna check broken with broken.
Oof I still haven't updated that spreadsheet
 
You don't mind if I... borrow this post for a bit and change some things, do you? No? Thanks.


Personally, I don't see this suspect as trying to determine if Aegislash is broken, anyone competent knows that it isn't. I see this more as the community making a choice as to which kind of XY OU metagame they want, since XY OU with Aegislash is very different from XY OU without it. For example, in the meta without it, there would end up being things that rise to Genesect levels of overcentralization, thus requiring further bans and/or suspect tests despite the fact that they never would have even been considered suspect-worthy in a meta with Aegislash allowed, however, this doesn't mean the meta would be objectively bad, just different from what we're used to. Here's a bit of a quick outline as to what the two kinds of metagames would be, from what I know of XY OU, based on the results of this suspect test.

Aegislash is banned
  • All mons previously threatened by Aegislash get a boost in usage, and a lot more freedom in using their movesets, particularly Tyranitar and Heracross
  • Latios becomes the new "top" of the meta, in terms of how many potential sets you have to choose from all in one mon
  • Mega-Gardevoir no longer has a top usage mon keeping it from being broken/overcentralizing
  • The three best mons in the metagame (Latios, Heatran, Mega-Pinsir) lock into a triangular relationship
  • New potential viable sets get to rise with the meta's minimum power curve dropping
  • Dark types lose even more of their dominance over the metagame
  • Overall diversity is increased massively, leading to an even less consistent metagame

Aegislash is not banned
  • Dark types continue to rise, using Aegislash as their main reason for being viable
  • Metagame continues to be based around Aegislash, due to Aegislash's King's Shield being the most common move people have to play around
  • More potentially broken mons could be unbanned, using the high power curve as their warrant for unban
  • Aegislash continues to force guessing games as to which set it's using, as well as whether you even beat those sets or not
  • Niche sets and mons made to counter specifically Aegislash will continue to rise in usage (Umbreon, Earthquake Latios, etc)
  • Mons that could potentially rise to cancerous levels are kept in check/hindered by Aegislash's presence
  • Metagame stagnates until Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire come to shake things up

I know speculating what the metagame "might" be is typically frowned upon, but that's essentially all that this suspect test is about, since Aegislash's effect on the metagame is much more significant than the actual mon itself. Regardless of whether my particular outlines come true or not, XY OU with Aegislash and XY OU without Aegislash would almost certainly be very different from each other, and it is up to us to decide which version of XY OU we believe would be the healthiest for us and newer players who would legitimately want to learn the meta.

And I know I don't, I didn't even play XY OU very often so my points may be wrong in this post (I did read the suspect thread as a quick refresher though) but this was presented to me and I had to point out the blatant flaws in this argument, and that it was made in the past with other things that ultimately ended up to be "too broken," and you probably get the idea of what I was trying to write up anyway.
And guess what, the meta was fine. And quite a few things post-Aegislash ban that were thought to be broken... never were, would you look at that!

Immediately reading this post: "anyone competent knows" gives me bad vibes, to the point that I'm thinking "...is Glyx actually serious here or am I seeing Poe's law in action?"
Let me be honest about something. Judging by what I've read by this thread, Kyurem-Black already has Marshadow levels of overcentralization. You must have a way to beat it, or else you automatically lose to it from team preview. And there are quite a few sets it can run, from gimmicky lures to the standard "SUBZERO SLAMMER X D" that can be either bulky or fast depending on what it needs to beat.
If anything, your arguments about it "keeping the metagame together" only make me think it's even more unhealthy with it. It's a metagame warped around a single Pokemon. That's essentially the textbook definition of that mon being broken, it was one of the major reasons why Aegislash was banned from XY OU, why I believed Primal Groudon and Gengarite were broken in Balanced Hackmons, etc.
I would go more indepth about this and how running more "niche" things for Kyub already shows that it's honestly broken, but... I think stuff about this has been said before and that Kyub technically has the tools to beat those too if it so desired. Aegislash and Kyub are different, but I posted this because I noticed similarities between both of the "keep X in the meta" arguments.

While I understand you are relatively skilled at 1v1 and respect your skill, I'd like to say that this is one of the worst anti-ban arguments I've seen in this thread, to the point where reading it makes me want it gone even more. And let me remind you that I don't play 1v1, so theoretically, I should have no opinion. But hey, I read the posts in this thread, I may as well have some opinion.
Uhhhhh... I'm confused. Where exactly in her post did Glyx say that she was against banning Kyurem-Black? I've read it over a few times now, and I can't find anything that even implies this. All she was doing was showing what would happen in both cases, and letting the playerbase decide which meta they prefer. Again, I can't find any line where she lets her feelings through. If anything, phrases like "Kyurem continues to force guessing games as to which set it's using, as well as whether you even beat those sets or not" and "Metagame stagnates until Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon come to shake things up" imply that she's actually pro-ban to an extent.

And now to hope I didn't say something stupid and shoot my credibility in my foot.
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
is a Pre-Contributor
Uhhhhh... I'm confused. Where exactly in her post did Glyx say that she was against banning Kyurem-Black? I've read it over a few times now, and I can't find anything that even implies this. All she was doing was showing what would happen in both cases, and letting the playerbase decide which meta they prefer. Again, I can't find any line where she lets her feelings through. If anything, phrases like "Kyurem continues to force guessing games as to which set it's using, as well as whether you even beat those sets or not" and "Metagame stagnates until Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon come to shake things up" imply that she's actually pro-ban to an extent.

And now to hope I didn't say something stupid and shoot my credibility in my foot.
...oh

it was poe's law, i was just told it was a serious argument and reacted as such

you can have the gun if you still want it i'm done using it to shoot my own credibility in the foot sorry about that
at least it did its job in making me want kyub gone hahahaha whoops
 
1v1 PL Draft is now completed.
Here is the draft logs in case you missed it
Here is a listing of players by price

Mum Manaphy | Money: 22500 | Bidders: Kris , Jasprose | Players (7): CloudyNatu, Landon_A#21, Death On Wings, Kentari, BaleBlaze, Virginia != Virgin, Lmni
Thotting Tsareenas | Money: 18000 | Bidders: partys over, wishes | Players (7): partysover, wishes, Iron Crusher, Lautreamont, Smile toad, Santu, Francyy
Castaways Corsolas | Money: 0 | Bidders: Unleash Our Passion, Elo Bandit | Players (7): UnleashOurPassion, Elo Bandit, Quantum Tesseract, XSTATIC COLD, RNGIsFatal, SmashedGarlic, Scraftionite
Passionate Pyukumukus | Money: 0 | Bidders: Freddy Kyogre, Wrath of Alakazam | Players (7): Wrath Of Alakazam, Freddy Kyogre, Fertile Crescent, dogknees, jrm115, blazikin, Xraimon
Vivillon Visionaries | Money: 1000 | Bidders: Whammerist, Mace Master | Players (7): Whammerist, MaceMaster, Emperor, Rumplestsiltkin, Motogp, CallMeJJok3R, Charizard8888
Banned Blazikens | Money: 11000 | Bidders: GL Volkner, E4 Flint, flint | Players (7): Lost Heros, BlondeSasukeUchiha, Glyx, Gross Sweep, 1vI, Downcoming3, Tzums
 
1v1 PL Draft is now completed.
Here is the draft logs in case you missed it
Here is a listing of players by price

Mum Manaphy | Money: 22500 | Bidders: Kris , Jasprose | Players (7): CloudyNatu, Landon_A#21, Death On Wings, Kentari, BaleBlaze, Virginia != Virgin, Lmni
Thotting Tsareenas | Money: 18000 | Bidders: partys over, wishes | Players (7): partysover, wishes, Iron Crusher, Lautreamont, Smile toad, Santu, Francyy
Castaways Corsolas | Money: 0 | Bidders: Unleash Our Passion, Elo Bandit | Players (7): UnleashOurPassion, Elo Bandit, Quantum Tesseract, XSTATIC COLD, RNGIsFatal, SmashedGarlic, Scraftionite
Passionate Pyukumukus | Money: 0 | Bidders: Freddy Kyogre, Wrath of Alakazam | Players (7): Wrath Of Alakazam, Freddy Kyogre, Fertile Crescent, dogknees, jrm115, blazikin, Xraimon
Vivillon Visionaries | Money: 1000 | Bidders: Whammerist, Mace Master | Players (7): Whammerist, MaceMaster, Emperor, Rumplestsiltkin, Motogp, CallMeJJok3R, Charizard8888
Banned Blazikens | Money: 11000 | Bidders: GL Volkner, E4 Flint, flint | Players (7): Lost Heros, BlondeSasukeUchiha, Glyx, Gross Sweep, 1vI, Downcoming3, Tzums
Oh hey, cool. I didn't participate because I am bad, but nonetheless, good luck to everyone!
 
1v1 PL Draft is now completed.
Here is the draft logs in case you missed it
Here is a listing of players by price

Mum Manaphy | Money: 22500 | Bidders: Kris , Jasprose | Players (7): CloudyNatu, Landon_A#21, Death On Wings, Kentari, BaleBlaze, Virginia != Virgin, Lmni
Thotting Tsareenas | Money: 18000 | Bidders: partys over, wishes | Players (7): partysover, wishes, Iron Crusher, Lautreamont, Smile toad, Santu, Francyy
Castaways Corsolas | Money: 0 | Bidders: Unleash Our Passion, Elo Bandit | Players (7): UnleashOurPassion, Elo Bandit, Quantum Tesseract, XSTATIC COLD, RNGIsFatal, SmashedGarlic, Scraftionite
Passionate Pyukumukus | Money: 0 | Bidders: Freddy Kyogre, Wrath of Alakazam | Players (7): Wrath Of Alakazam, Freddy Kyogre, Fertile Crescent, dogknees, jrm115, blazikin, Xraimon
Vivillon Visionaries | Money: 1000 | Bidders: Whammerist, Mace Master | Players (7): Whammerist, MaceMaster, Emperor, Rumplestsiltkin, Motogp, CallMeJJok3R, Charizard8888
Banned Blazikens | Money: 11000 | Bidders: GL Volkner, E4 Flint, flint | Players (7): Lost Heros, BlondeSasukeUchiha, Glyx, Gross Sweep, 1vI, Downcoming3, Tzums
Looking good, I know there's a few teams I can't wait to play. Should be fun all round!

Also let's not forget to thank sirDonovan for setting up a draft bot so this could actually happen!

PYUKUMUKUUUUUUUUUUU
 

Amane Misa

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I am not a 1v1 player whatsoever... I am really surprised I managed to get reqs, too. I wanted to write my thoughts regarding Kyurem-B because why not... please pardon me for my zero 1v1 knowledge.

I played some 1v1 games before the suspect test and the first thing I was really paranoid about while teambuilding is Kyurem-B.

Even though Kyurem-B is very versatile, every Kyurem-B set could be beaten by the right Pokémon; there's no one broken set that beats everything. However, this fact put so much pressure on me while teambuilding, if not restricted it to some extent.

During the suspect ladder without Kyurem-B, I was really satisfied with the fact I didn't need to overprepare for Kyurem-B. The fact I had so much less pressure while teambuilding made my overall building and playing experience a lot more enjoyable than with Kyurem-B on the meta.

Even though I had lots of fun messing around with Kyurem-B and its many sets before the suspect test, I have to say I enjoyed the Kyurem-B-less meta more, therefore I leaned towards voting ban.
 
I'm not really one to get heavily involved in stuff like this, but I'd like to try and convince those who have not yet voted, or those who are planning on getting reqs to vote, to not ban Kyurem-Black.

There's always been a lot of speculation about the fate of Kyurem-Black in the 1v1 metagame. It can be argued that Kyurem in the current meta has simply adapted far too well to any threat, and can pull off a set to eliminate what could be seen as any "hard counter". For example, Kyurem can utilize a few rather niche sets such as Haban Berry to lure and beat opposing Kyurem and Charizard-Mega-X, Groundium-Z can be for fat steels such as Heatran and Magearna, Roseli berry for offensive Mimikyu, Weakness Policy for Mega-Gyarados, and the list goes on.

Kyurem-Black does offer extreme versatility and can indeed put a strain on teambuilding when trying to cover for every single possible set. There's no denying that you're never going to be able to have a good team that can cover literally ever single one of Kyurem's sets. But is this really enough to warrant a ban? Versatility does not instantly account to broken, or unhealthy. While one set might beat a specific threat, it then loses to so many others. Kyurem on paper seems like its a broken mon, but in reality there's far more consequences to banning Kyurem rather than keeping it.

Kyurem is meta glue. It is the center of the metagame and as a result is extremely influential in practically every aspect of 1v1, from teambuilding (including custom spreads) to the ps ladder to tournament gameplay. Considering the current metagame and the suspect ladder, Kyurem is needed for metagame stabilization. The current metagame without Kyurem allows an extremely rapid influx of suddenly many more viable mons. To name a few, there's Golem, Donphan, Dragonite, Magnezone, Mimikyu, Tapu Koko, Landorus-Therian, Greninja, Jumpluff, Whimsicott. While a standard kyurem can't beat every mon mentioned here, its presence alone is enough to keep back a lot of mons from suddenly jumping up and becoming the new dominating figures of the metagame, notably Dragonite.

While I do believe that a suspect for Kyurem was needed, I don't believe that now is the right time for it, let alone a ban. We're barely less than a month away from ultra sun and moon, which is going to potentially introduce game changing mechanics and completely new pokemon to shake up the meta. Yet, despite being so close to a new meta, people want to ban the central figure of 1v1 and free a bunch of new threats? If this is done, the metagame won't stabilize at all before ultra sun and moon is released. We'd be leading one unstable meta into another. Banning Kyurem now doesn't make sense. I don't see the point. Keep Kyurem for now, test again down the track once the metagame has settled and stabilized to what ultra sun and moon has given us.

tl;dr = save Kyurem-Black. If there's a time to ban it, it's not now.
 
I'm not really one to get heavily involved in stuff like this, but I'd like to try and convince those who have not yet voted, or those who are planning on getting reqs to vote, to not ban Kyurem-Black.

There's always been a lot of speculation about the fate of Kyurem-Black in the 1v1 metagame. It can be argued that Kyurem in the current meta has simply adapted far too well to any threat, and can pull off a set to eliminate what could be seen as any "hard counter". For example, Kyurem can utilize a few rather niche sets such as Haban Berry to lure and beat opposing Kyurem and Charizard-Mega-X, Groundium-Z can be for fat steels such as Heatran and Magearna, Roseli berry for offensive Mimikyu, Weakness Policy for Mega-Gyarados, and the list goes on.

Kyurem-Black does offer extreme versatility and can indeed put a strain on teambuilding when trying to cover for every single possible set. There's no denying that you're never going to be able to have a good team that can cover literally ever single one of Kyurem's sets. But is this really enough to warrant a ban? Versatility does not instantly account to broken, or unhealthy. While one set might beat a specific threat, it then loses to so many others. Kyurem on paper seems like its a broken mon, but in reality there's far more consequences to banning Kyurem rather than keeping it.

Kyurem is meta glue. It is the center of the metagame and as a result is extremely influential in practically every aspect of 1v1, from teambuilding (including custom spreads) to the ps ladder to tournament gameplay. Considering the current metagame and the suspect ladder, Kyurem is needed for metagame stabilization. The current metagame without Kyurem allows an extremely rapid influx of suddenly many more viable mons. To name a few, there's Golem, Donphan, Dragonite, Magnezone, Mimikyu, Tapu Koko, Landorus-Therian, Greninja, Jumpluff, Whimsicott. While a standard kyurem can't beat every mon mentioned here, its presence alone is enough to keep back a lot of mons from suddenly jumping up and becoming the new dominating figures of the metagame, notably Dragonite.

While I do believe that a suspect for Kyurem was needed, I don't believe that now is the right time for it, let alone a ban. We're barely less than a month away from ultra sun and moon, which is going to potentially introduce game changing mechanics and completely new pokemon to shake up the meta. Yet, despite being so close to a new meta, people want to ban the central figure of 1v1 and free a bunch of new threats? If this is done, the metagame won't stabilize at all before ultra sun and moon is released. We'd be leading one unstable meta into another. Banning Kyurem now doesn't make sense. I don't see the point. Keep Kyurem for now, test again down the track once the metagame has settled and stabilized to what ultra sun and moon has given us.

tl;dr = save Kyurem-Black. If there's a time to ban it, it's not now.
There are some things I do not agree with.

1. "Kyurem is meta glue". I know 1v1 works differently from standard formats, but let's take a moment to compare 1v1 Kyurem-Black to OU Landorus-Therian. Lando-T in OU is a dominant, meta-defining force due to walling a bunch of powerful physical attackers such as Kartana, Tyranitar and others while also providing excellent Rocks support and pivoting with it's Rocky Helmet set, or being able to sweep efficiently with the Double Dance Z-move set. Despite this, it has some noticeable flaws, primarily an average speed tier for OU standards, less-than-ideal special bulk, and a lack of viable recovery outside of Leftovers and Rest. Said flaws are exploitable by Pokemon such as Tapu Lele, Ash Greninja, Celesteela, Volcarona, Kyurem-Black, Mantine, Tapu Fini, and much, much more (Yes, some of these lose to Flyinium, but in 6v6, there's a thing called switching, which means that it you play properly, you can make sure Lando can't get into a situation where it can set up to begin with.) Now, how about 1v1 Kyurem-Black, which can wipe out nearly 80% of the metagame with just Scarf and Icium Z, near unwallable coverage with Subzero Slammer + Outrage + Fusion Bolt, and a crappy defensive typing being compensated for by huge bulk, which, with investment, can tank shit like Mega Mawile's Play Rough? And remember, in 1v1, you can't switch into your check/counter. You also can't wear it down with entry hazards and such.

Here's a little analogy I like to use: Let's pretend 1v1 is a playground. Mega Gyarados is the playground supervisor, who keeps some of the tougher kids like Golem, Donphan and Dragonite from getting too rowdy. Kyurem-Black, meanwhile, is the mean vice principal who hurts the bullies and the innocent kids for no reason, and who constantly gets into fights with Mega Gyarados, yet has somehow not received discipline for his behavior, which has caused all the kids on the playground to fear and despise him.

2. "USUM is coming out soon, why not wait to see what changes it brings to the table?" Referring back to OU, Arena Trap wasn't banned too long ago. It believe it was banned in the middle of September, correct? By that point, it was only a month and a half or so left until USUM. But they still suspected it. Why? Because Arena Trap was an overcentralizing force to the point where people wanted immediate action to be taken. It's a similar case with Kyurem-Black. You can speculate all you want about what the new Pokemon/move tutors/z-moves will do, but when it comes to tiering and suspects, we need to make decisions based off the CURRENT metagame, not the metagame we'll have in a month. And in the CURRENT metagame, Kyurem-Black is a highly controversial Pokemon, to the point where people on both the pro and anti ban sides felt that a suspect was in order to determine how broken it was, and what the meta would be like without it.
 
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