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I'm not really one to get heavily involved in stuff like this, but I'd like to try and convince those who have not yet voted, or those who are planning on getting reqs to vote, to not ban Kyurem-Black.
There's always been a lot of speculation about the fate of Kyurem-Black in the 1v1 metagame. It can be argued that Kyurem in the current meta has simply adapted far too well to any threat, and can pull off a set to eliminate what could be seen as any "hard counter". For example, Kyurem can utilize a few rather niche sets such as Haban Berry to lure and beat opposing Kyurem and Charizard-Mega-X, Groundium-Z can be for fat steels such as Heatran and Magearna, Roseli berry for offensive Mimikyu, Weakness Policy for Mega-Gyarados, and the list goes on.
Kyurem-Black does offer extreme versatility and can indeed put a strain on teambuilding when trying to cover for every single possible set. There's no denying that you're never going to be able to have a good team that can cover literally ever single one of Kyurem's sets. But is this really enough to warrant a ban? Versatility does not instantly account to broken, or unhealthy. While one set might beat a specific threat, it then loses to so many others. Kyurem on paper seems like its a broken mon, but in reality there's far more consequences to banning Kyurem rather than keeping it.
Kyurem is meta glue. It is the center of the metagame and as a result is extremely influential in practically every aspect of 1v1, from teambuilding (including custom spreads) to the ps ladder to tournament gameplay. Considering the current metagame and the suspect ladder, Kyurem is needed for metagame stabilization. The current metagame without Kyurem allows an extremely rapid influx of suddenly many more viable mons. To name a few, there's Golem, Donphan, Dragonite, Magnezone, Mimikyu, Tapu Koko, Landorus-Therian, Greninja, Jumpluff, Whimsicott. While a standard kyurem can't beat every mon mentioned here, its presence alone is enough to keep back a lot of mons from suddenly jumping up and becoming the new dominating figures of the metagame, notably Dragonite.
While I do believe that a suspect for Kyurem was needed, I don't believe that now is the right time for it, let alone a ban. We're barely less than a month away from ultra sun and moon, which is going to potentially introduce game changing mechanics and completely new pokemon to shake up the meta. Yet, despite being so close to a new meta, people want to ban the central figure of 1v1 and free a bunch of new threats? If this is done, the metagame won't stabilize at all before ultra sun and moon is released. We'd be leading one unstable meta into another. Banning Kyurem now doesn't make sense. I don't see the point. Keep Kyurem for now, test again down the track once the metagame has settled and stabilized to what ultra sun and moon has given us.
tl;dr = save Kyurem-Black. If there's a time to ban it, it's not now.
I think you're a little ill-informed on a couple of things.
"For example, Kyurem can utilize a few rather niche sets such as Haban Berry to lure and beat opposing Kyurem and Charizard-Mega-X, Groundium-Z can be for fat steels such as Heatran and Magearna, Roseli berry for offensive Mimikyu, Weakness Policy for Mega-Gyarados, and the list goes on."
Fun fact: Kyurem-B has such goddamned good stats it can run enough bulk to live opposing Kyub and Charizard X's Outrages without the need for Haban Berry while OHKOing them with a Banded Outrage (or Specs Draco, Subzero, etc). Heatran loses to most non-Scarfed Kyurems without needing to resort to Groundium Z. As with the dragon types, Kyurem can run a physically defensive Choice Band to tank and OHKO Mimikyu.
Secondly, you didn't mention the real reason that Kyurem is broken: unpredictability. The argument that you did touch on, in that it has next to no counters, is not to be used as a stand-alone argument. Rather, the fact that A) you can't tell what set Kyurem is at team preview, B) that its sets beat different things, C) Kyurem's niche sets see some usage (1/3 Kyurems aren't running Scarf or Icium) and D) Kyurem has only a small handful hard counters (and most of them have to run off-meta sets to truly counter it) can lead us to this conclusion: that Kyurem-B is impossible to reliably win against unless you happen to be running one of its few counters. In short: it makes you lose when you should have won unless you start running Mega Metagross or Terrakion on all of your teams, which is obviously unfair and uncompetitive.
1. "Kyurem is meta glue". I know 1v1 works differently from standard formats, but let's take a moment to compare 1v1 Kyurem-Black to OU Landorus-Therian. Lando-T in OU is a dominant, meta-defining force due to walling a bunch of powerful physical attackers such as Kartana, Tyranitar and others while also providing excellent Rocks support and pivoting with it's Rocky Helmet set, or being able to sweep efficiently with the Double Dance Z-move set. Despite this, it has some noticeable flaws, primarily an average speed tier for OU standards, less-than-ideal special bulk, and a lack of viable recovery outside of Leftovers and Rest. Said flaws are exploitable by Pokemon such as Tapu Lele, Ash Greninja, Celesteela, Volcarona, Kyurem-Black, Mantine, Tapu Fini, and much, much more (Yes, some of these lose to Flyinium, but in 6v6, there's a thing called switching, which means that it you play properly, you can make sure Lando can't get into a situation where it can set up to begin with.) Now, how about 1v1 Kyurem-Black, which can wipe out nearly 80% of the metagame with just Scarf and Icium Z, near unwallable coverage with Subzero Slammer + Outrage + Fusion Bolt, and a crappy defensive typing being compensated for by huge bulk, which, with investment, can tank shit like Mega Mawile's Play Rough? And remember, in 1v1, you can't switch into your check/counter. You also can't wear it down with entry hazards and such.
Here's a little analogy I like to use: Let's pretend 1v1 is a playground. Mega Gyarados is the playground supervisor, who keeps some of the tougher kids like Golem, Donphan and Dragonite from getting too rowdy. Kyurem-Black, meanwhile, is the mean vice principal who hurts the bullies and the innocent kids for no reason, and who constantly gets into fights with Mega Gyarados, yet has somehow not received discipline for his behavior, which has caused all the kids on the playground to fear and despise him.
2. "USUM is coming out soon, why not wait to see what changes it brings to the table?" Referring back to OU, Arena Trap wasn't banned too long ago. It believe it was banned in the middle of September, correct? By that point, it was only a month and a half or so left until USUM. But they still suspected it. Why? Because Arena Trap was an overcentralizing force to the point where people wanted immediate action to be taken. It's a similar case with Kyurem-Black. You can speculate all you want about what the new Pokemon/move tutors/z-moves will do, but when it comes to tiering and suspects, we need to make decisions based off the CURRENT metagame, not the metagame we'll have in a month. And in the CURRENT metagame, Kyurem-Black is a highly controversial Pokemon, to the point where people on both the pro and anti ban sides felt that a suspect was in order to determine how broken it was, and what the meta would be like without it.
Sorry but I honestly can't take any of that seriously. You're comparing 1v1 to OU, have you even seen how completely different these metagames are to each other? You've completely ignore the fact that role compression is a major factor in OU but practically does not exist in 1v1. The two simply aren't comparable in any way.
I think you're a little ill-informed on a couple of things.
"For example, Kyurem can utilize a few rather niche sets such as Haban Berry to lure and beat opposing Kyurem and Charizard-Mega-X, Groundium-Z can be for fat steels such as Heatran and Magearna, Roseli berry for offensive Mimikyu, Weakness Policy for Mega-Gyarados, and the list goes on."
Fun fact: Kyurem-B has such goddamned good stats it can run enough bulk to live opposing Kyub and Charizard X's Outrages without the need for Haban Berry while OHKOing them with a Banded Outrage (or Specs Draco, Subzero, etc). Heatran loses to most non-Scarfed Kyurems without needing to resort to Groundium Z. As with the dragon types, Kyurem can run a physically defensive Choice Band to tank and OHKO Mimikyu.
Secondly, you didn't mention the real reason that Kyurem is broken: unpredictability. The argument that you did touch on, in that it has next to no counters, is not to be used as a stand-alone argument. Rather, the fact that A) you can't tell what set Kyurem is at team preview, B) that its sets beat different things, C) Kyurem's niche sets see some usage (1/3 Kyurems aren't running Scarf or Icium) and D) Kyurem has only a small handful hard counters (and most of them have to run off-meta sets to truly counter it) can lead us to this conclusion: that Kyurem-B is impossible to reliably win against unless you happen to be running one of its few counters. In short: it makes you lose when you should have won unless you start running Mega Metagross or Terrakion on all of your teams, which is obviously unfair and uncompetitive.
I'll happily admit to being misinformed; you're right about majority of the points you mentioned against the sets I mentioned. Though I think that it's still very important to note the opportunity cost that's lost depending on the set Kyurem uses. While you may have created a set that improves your overall matchup vs mimikyu, you've all of a sudden made it much worse vs other typical threats which kyurem should be able to have a chance of winning against.
There's no denying that Kyurem doesn't have many counters. What I don't understand is how limited counters =/= instantly broken. You say how Kyurem is impossible to reliably win against bar the use of Metagross and Terrakion, which I don't really agree with. Yes, Metagross and Terrakion are going to beat Kyurem in every situation bar hax, though you can't keep pulling out the "It's unpredictable" card whenever an anti-ban argument comes up. If Kyurem's unpredictability is what can help it win many matchups, doesn't the exact same thing apply in that the niche sets it can use can also make it lose a matchup it should win? Opportunity cost is extremely high with Kyurem. If Kyurem was really as broken as what people say, then Terrakion and Metagross would have significantly higher usage than what they currently have (yes, I know that Metagross was #3 in september, but that doesn't explain Terrakion at #68). Also, there are plenty of mons that you can't identify the set of at team preview. While Kyurem does have more of these sets to play around with, sometimes you have to give the benefit of the doubt. It's naive to think that Kyurem could be any one of Kyurem's approximate 8 sets at any given time. You can't turn a blind eye to the popular sets which take majority of usage. Also, these sets beat different things and lose to different things as well. There's plenty of opportunity cost when you run a niche set.
It does explain pretty much everything. The fact that this happened in September proves how frustrated people are at this point, not being able to stand the overcentralization around Kyurem-Black in the current metagame.Also, people on the ladder do tend to rely on 1-2 counters, rather than trying to vary their teams, which explains both why Metagross-Mega is in #3 and why Terrakion is in #68.
Secondly, you didn't mention the real reason that Kyurem is broken: unpredictability. The argument that you did touch on, in that it has next to no counters, is not to be used as a stand-alone argument. Rather, the fact that A) you can't tell what set Kyurem is at team preview, B) that its sets beat different things, C) Kyurem's niche sets see some usage (1/3 Kyurems aren't running Scarf or Icium) and D) Kyurem has only a small handful hard counters (and most of them have to run off-meta sets to truly counter it) can lead us to this conclusion: that Kyurem-B is impossible to reliably win against unless you happen to be running one of its few counters. In short: it makes you lose when you should have won unless you start running Mega Metagross or Terrakion on all of your teams, which is obviously unfair and uncompetitive.
I'd like to point out that Kyurem can be pretty predictable, or at least, as predictable as other things currently allowed in the meta.
Just about every Kyurem is gonna be hitting you with Dragon/Ice moves, in addition to maybe some Electric/Ground/Fighting/Steel coverage.
Now let's look at Metagross-Mega.
Just about every Metagross is gonna be hitting you with Steel moves, in addition to some Psychic/Electric/Fighting/Ground/Ice coverage.
Both are hard hitters, both have very solid stats, both have very limited, consistent hard counters.
What's the difference? One is considered suspect-worthy, the other is not.
I hate to be the one breaking UC's heart over and over again, but let's take a look at the suspect philosophy:
1) A Pokemon is deemed suspect worthy if it's overcentralizing in the 1v1 metagame, a significantly high usage justifies the large scale it takes in the metagame which is unhealthy and needs to be looked on. This is 1v1 and not a battle between two teams, a Pokemon with high usage proves that its strong and easily splashable on most teams.
Both of these mons have consistently high usage, Kyub being higher than Metagross.
2) By definition a broken Pokemon is a Pokemon that doesn't have a lot of checks and counters. Let's define C&C in 1v1. A check is a Pokemon that can defeat another with a specific set but if it uses another it may lose. A counter is a Pokemon that can defeat another Pokemon no matter what it runs. Ex: Mega Blastoise is a check to Mega Charizard Y if it runs full spdf and mirror coat but Chansey is a counter to Mega Charizard Y as it can always beat it. A pokemon is deemed broken if it defeats at least more than the half of the metagame with a set or its other viable sets without having an opportunity cost, that was the case of Mega Salamence which could easily adjust between two sets and defeat more than half of the meta.
Both have limited counters, HOWEVER, we haven't really considered to what extent a mon has to beat another mon in order to be considered a counter. Some people believe being able to 50/50 a mon is enough to be considered a counter, I believe beating a mon at least 80% of the time is consistent enough to be considered a counter, who's right? Neither, we need our leadership team to decide this, since otherwise, no solid conclusions can be made with this aspect of the philosophy.
3) We do not judge by playstyle since this is 1v1. If a Pokemon defeats a stall team in 1v1 it shouldn't be looked into due to them having a lot of choices to pick from and being having only two-third of the team stallish doesn't stop the last member from defeating a more offensive Pokemon. Ex: If Mega Charizard Y defeats a stall team made of Mega Venusaur, Jellicent and Mandibuzz it's not the Pokemon that is broken, the team doesn't synergize to defeat common threats in the metagame which is your fault, same goes to offensive teams that loses to Chansey. They are S ranked for a reason.
This doesn't exactly apply to evaluating individual pokemon, rather instead a reminder that whether a mon beats your teams consistently or not doesn't matter. It's good advice, and I'm including it here so that way you can tell I'm not cherry-picking from the philosophy post :X
4) We are not looking to make low ranked Pokemon viable in the metagame by banning high ranked Pokemon. It's not our fault if they weren't gifted with a good stats, and movesets to be viable in 1v1.
This doesn't really apply to the Metagross/Kyurem point either, but is also something good to keep in mind, as metagame diversity is not considered good enough reason for banning a mon.
5) Please post your arguments smartly, and do not attack someone's else opinion or attack them directly, this is highly discouraged as it lowers your image and make people avoid listening to you. Some guidelines of posting are: Provide the topic of the Pokemon that you think is deemed suspect worthy, discuss it through the tiering philosophy by providing replays, calcs or strong arguments. Your arguments should provide a clear view of the Pokemon and how unhealthy it is, a list of Pokemon that can defeat it and if it has more than one set then list its sets. Don't bring up the kind of sets that are horrendously niche, they should have some amount of usage on the ladder.
This portion also doesn't really shine too much light on whether a mon should be considered banworthy or not, but is also good to consider, since all posts should offer your personal view of whatever is being suspected/considered, while also having real facts backing up your claims.
6) Being an unpredictable Pokemon shouldn't be a strong trait to base your arguments on but still is a way of view and can be looked on. This is 1v1, it's sure that a lot of Pokemon will have different sets to check their checks and derailing from the norm is always something we should encourage as it helps in giving more life to the metagame. So, let's set up a clear definition of what an unpredictable Pokemon is: It's a Pokemon that can make use of different sets with little to no opportunity cost and still be able to beat half of the metagame with whatever set it runs. Per example an unpredictable Pokemon would be Mega Gyarados as it has a big movepool to pick from, and can adjust itself to beat some Pokemon, but that doesn't make it broken since it comes with some opportunity cost.
HERE we go. Unpredictability isn't really a good argument point unless there's little to no opportunity cost as a result of using the mon's alternative sets.
With consideration to what actually gets used the most, Scarfed Kyurem has the widest metagame coverage out of all its sets, with Icium losing out on a lot of matchups, and Specs at least regaining some of the matchups lost by Icium, but still not being anywhere as close to Scarf.
Metagross, on the other hand, has three different sets that essentially all do the same thing, but have different matchups based on the EV spread and moveset alone.
So in this aspect, Metagross actually surpasses Kyurem in that its three sets all come at little expense over switching between them, while Kyurem loses out on a big chunk of the metagame from not being Scarfed, gaining back very little to make up for that loss from these other sets.
7) Staying on the topic of sets, don't bring in discussion niche sets just to prove that this Pokemon is broken since it can adapt easily, it's just not a good base to build on since most Pokemon can also run niche sets to defeat other.
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 350-414 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Magearna: 306-362 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8) Don't bring up complex bans they are unneeded and just creates more confusion. Per example if Trick+Choice Item is broken it's not the strategy itself but the user that makes it broken, taking per example Chansey and Meloetta. Chansey will defeat Meloetta even if its tricked if the Meloetta lacks Psyshock but if Meloetta has Psyshock it will be able to defeat Chansey.
I honestly don't have much to contribute to this, but I figured it'd be good to have the entire philosophy restated here for the convenience of people who are trying to get their thoughts together and need some kind of reference to base their post off of.
9) If good arguments are made against a Pokemon the Tier Leader has the right to suspect it, we aren't looking for quick banning Pokemon since the community's opinion is valuable and they make the metagame. If a Pokemon didn't get banned due to a suspect don't re-talk about it even if you still think it's broken, we work on majority.
Okay, let's maybe not take this one to heart, since "good arguments" are subjective to what each individual user considers a "good argument", and the leaders themselves even broke this one by quick-banning Marshadow :X But this also goes to show that in reality, we cannot undo ban/unban decisions as we once may have thought, so please be considerate with how you go about banning/unbanning mons, as decisions are more or less final, unless we get a massive rallying force behind undoing these changes.
Okay, so the philosophy ended up being a lot less about actual suspects than I expected, rather being more about how posts should be made for suspect discussion.
However, in the three portions that DID pertain to my point of Metagross being equally as suspectable as Kyurem, Metagross proved to be about as suspectable as Kyub, if not even more; both have high usage (Kyurem has more), both have limited hard counters (Metagross has less), both are unpredictable (Metagross loses less from changing between sets).
Sorry for dragging your post into this Macey, it was a good starting point for this mess tho-
Massive Metagross post is coming soon to a thread near you!
I am not a 1v1 player whatsoever... I am really surprised I managed to get reqs, too. I wanted to write my thoughts regarding Kyurem-B because why not... please pardon me for my zero 1v1 knowledge.
I played some 1v1 games before the suspect test and the first thing I was really paranoid about while teambuilding is Kyurem-B.
Even though Kyurem-B is very versatile, every Kyurem-B set could be beaten by the right Pokémon; there's no one broken set that beats everything. However, this fact put so much pressure on me while teambuilding, if not restricted it to some extent.
During the suspect ladder without Kyurem-B, I was really satisfied with the fact I didn't need to overprepare for Kyurem-B. The fact I had so much less pressure while teambuilding made my overall building and playing experience a lot more enjoyable than with Kyurem-B on the meta.
Even though I had lots of fun messing around with Kyurem-B and its many sets before the suspect test, I have to say I enjoyed the Kyurem-B-less meta more, therefore I leaned towards voting ban.
Tbh, I just like the meta better without too dude. If we can ban Deo-D because it’s less fun, we can ban Kyurem too. I find teambuilding easier as well. Certain weird and bad sets get more room to shine, and certain Pokémon that weren’t great with Kyurem everywhere like Mega-Venu and P-Z are nice to use. Also, not having to guess whether it is z-Ice or Choice Scarf is nice. Char X and Char Y are kind of like that, but to a lesser extent.
I'd like to point out that Kyurem can be pretty predictable, or at least, as predictable as other things currently allowed in the meta.
Just about every Kyurem is gonna be hitting you with Dragon/Ice moves, in addition to maybe some Electric/Ground/Fighting/Steel coverage.
Now let's look at Metagross-Mega.
Just about every Metagross is gonna be hitting you with Steel moves, in addition to some Psychic/Electric/Fighting/Ground/Ice coverage.
Both are hard hitters, both have very solid stats, both have very limited, consistent hard counters.
What's the difference? One is considered suspect-worthy, the other is not.
I hate to be the one breaking UC's heart over and over again, but let's take a look at the suspect philosophy:
1) A Pokemon is deemed suspect worthy if it's overcentralizing in the 1v1 metagame, a significantly high usage justifies the large scale it takes in the metagame which is unhealthy and needs to be looked on. This is 1v1 and not a battle between two teams, a Pokemon with high usage proves that its strong and easily splashable on most teams.
Both of these mons have consistently high usage, Kyub being higher than Metagross.
2) By definition a broken Pokemon is a Pokemon that doesn't have a lot of checks and counters. Let's define C&C in 1v1. A check is a Pokemon that can defeat another with a specific set but if it uses another it may lose. A counter is a Pokemon that can defeat another Pokemon no matter what it runs. Ex: Mega Blastoise is a check to Mega Charizard Y if it runs full spdf and mirror coat but Chansey is a counter to Mega Charizard Y as it can always beat it. A pokemon is deemed broken if it defeats at least more than the half of the metagame with a set or its other viable sets without having an opportunity cost, that was the case of Mega Salamence which could easily adjust between two sets and defeat more than half of the meta.
Both have limited counters, HOWEVER, we haven't really considered to what extent a mon has to beat another mon in order to be considered a counter. Some people believe being able to 50/50 a mon is enough to be considered a counter, I believe beating a mon at least 80% of the time is consistent enough to be considered a counter, who's right? Neither, we need our leadership team to decide this, since otherwise, no solid conclusions can be made with this aspect of the philosophy.
3) We do not judge by playstyle since this is 1v1. If a Pokemon defeats a stall team in 1v1 it shouldn't be looked into due to them having a lot of choices to pick from and being having only two-third of the team stallish doesn't stop the last member from defeating a more offensive Pokemon. Ex: If Mega Charizard Y defeats a stall team made of Mega Venusaur, Jellicent and Mandibuzz it's not the Pokemon that is broken, the team doesn't synergize to defeat common threats in the metagame which is your fault, same goes to offensive teams that loses to Chansey. They are S ranked for a reason.
This doesn't exactly apply to evaluating individual pokemon, rather instead a reminder that whether a mon beats your teams consistently or not doesn't matter. It's good advice, and I'm including it here so that way you can tell I'm not cherry-picking from the philosophy post :X
4) We are not looking to make low ranked Pokemon viable in the metagame by banning high ranked Pokemon. It's not our fault if they weren't gifted with a good stats, and movesets to be viable in 1v1.
This doesn't really apply to the Metagross/Kyurem point either, but is also something good to keep in mind, as metagame diversity is not considered good enough reason for banning a mon.
5) Please post your arguments smartly, and do not attack someone's else opinion or attack them directly, this is highly discouraged as it lowers your image and make people avoid listening to you. Some guidelines of posting are: Provide the topic of the Pokemon that you think is deemed suspect worthy, discuss it through the tiering philosophy by providing replays, calcs or strong arguments. Your arguments should provide a clear view of the Pokemon and how unhealthy it is, a list of Pokemon that can defeat it and if it has more than one set then list its sets. Don't bring up the kind of sets that are horrendously niche, they should have some amount of usage on the ladder.
This portion also doesn't really shine too much light on whether a mon should be considered banworthy or not, but is also good to consider, since all posts should offer your personal view of whatever is being suspected/considered, while also having real facts backing up your claims.
6) Being an unpredictable Pokemon shouldn't be a strong trait to base your arguments on but still is a way of view and can be looked on. This is 1v1, it's sure that a lot of Pokemon will have different sets to check their checks and derailing from the norm is always something we should encourage as it helps in giving more life to the metagame. So, let's set up a clear definition of what an unpredictable Pokemon is: It's a Pokemon that can make use of different sets with little to no opportunity cost and still be able to beat half of the metagame with whatever set it runs. Per example an unpredictable Pokemon would be Mega Gyarados as it has a big movepool to pick from, and can adjust itself to beat some Pokemon, but that doesn't make it broken since it comes with some opportunity cost.
HERE we go. Unpredictability isn't really a good argument point unless there's little to no opportunity cost as a result of using the mon's alternative sets.
With consideration to what actually gets used the most, Scarfed Kyurem has the widest metagame coverage out of all its sets, with Icium losing out on a lot of matchups, and Specs at least regaining some of the matchups lost by Icium, but still not being anywhere as close to Scarf.
Metagross, on the other hand, has three different sets that essentially all do the same thing, but have different matchups based on the EV spread and moveset alone.
So in this aspect, Metagross actually surpasses Kyurem in that its three sets all come at little expense over switching between them, while Kyurem loses out on a big chunk of the metagame from not being Scarfed, gaining back very little to make up for that loss from these other sets.
7) Staying on the topic of sets, don't bring in discussion niche sets just to prove that this Pokemon is broken since it can adapt easily, it's just not a good base to build on since most Pokemon can also run niche sets to defeat other.
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 350-414 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Magearna: 306-362 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8) Don't bring up complex bans they are unneeded and just creates more confusion. Per example if Trick+Choice Item is broken it's not the strategy itself but the user that makes it broken, taking per example Chansey and Meloetta. Chansey will defeat Meloetta even if its tricked if the Meloetta lacks Psyshock but if Meloetta has Psyshock it will be able to defeat Chansey.
I honestly don't have much to contribute to this, but I figured it'd be good to have the entire philosophy restated here for the convenience of people who are trying to get their thoughts together and need some kind of reference to base their post off of.
9) If good arguments are made against a Pokemon the Tier Leader has the right to suspect it, we aren't looking for quick banning Pokemon since the community's opinion is valuable and they make the metagame. If a Pokemon didn't get banned due to a suspect don't re-talk about it even if you still think it's broken, we work on majority.
Okay, let's maybe not take this one to heart, since "good arguments" are subjective to what each individual user considers a "good argument", and the leaders themselves even broke this one by quick-banning Marshadow :X But this also goes to show that in reality, we cannot undo ban/unban decisions as we once may have thought, so please be considerate with how you go about banning/unbanning mons, as decisions are more or less final, unless we get a massive rallying force behind undoing these changes.
Okay, so the philosophy ended up being a lot less about actual suspects than I expected, rather being more about how posts should be made for suspect discussion.
However, in the three portions that DID pertain to my point of Metagross being equally as suspectable as Kyurem, Metagross proved to be about as suspectable as Kyub, if not even more; both have high usage (Kyurem has more), both have limited hard counters (Metagross has less), both are unpredictable (Metagross loses less from changing between sets).
Sorry for dragging your post into this Macey, it was a good starting point for this mess tho-
Massive Metagross post is coming soon to a thread near you!
It can be hard to concede victory, and I still do think that Kyurem is broken, but I agree with a lot of what you said. There's just something I want to bring up in regards to all of that.
You mentioned a high opportunity cost to using some of Kyurem's more niche sets. A while back, I did a post on predicting what set Kyurem is running (results: you can't predict it). In this post, I made a spreadsheet of everything on the VR vs Kyurem's relevant sets. UOP used his spreadsheet magic to determine what percent of matchups were wins. Note: these matchups were set to be in Kyurem's favor in cases where there is any discepancy about who would win, and is also not weighted by usage as this is what was useful for the purposes of that post. These numbers are useful here, but don't go around spamming them because they aren't accurate. It only works here because I am using these numbers to see how they stack up relative to each other and not anything else.
It can be hard to concede victory, and I still do think that Kyurem is broken, but I agree with a lot of what you said. There's just something I want to bring up in regards to all of that.
You mentioned a high opportunity cost to using some of Kyurem's more niche sets. A while back, I did a post on predicting what set Kyurem is running (results: you can't predict it). In this post, I made a spreadsheet of everything on the VR vs Kyurem's relevant sets. UOP used his spreadsheet magic to determine what percent of matchups were wins. Note: these matchups were set to be in Kyurem's favor in cases where there is any discepancy about who would win, and is also not weighted by usage as this is what was useful for the purposes of that post. These numbers are useful here, but don't go around spamming them because they aren't accurate. It only works here because I am using these numbers to see how they stack up relative to each other and not anything else.
And you also have a fair point in that optimized sets are inherently better than what is actually used, however, the problem with that is as I stated, they aren't used. This leads to another problem that we need the leaders to decide for us; whether what gets used most frequently on a mon should be considered more important than the objectively most opportune sets or not. The problem with optimized sets according to the current philosophy is that they don't have the usage to be considered "relevant" on the ladder, and end up falling off into the "niche" category by technicality; heck, even Gyarados still doesn't run EVs to beat Kyurem most of the time, and it's considered one of its top counters. These sets also lack what would be considered "overcentralizing usage", which means that they're lacking in 2 out of 3 of the aspects within the suspect philosophy that pertain to mons in particular.
tldr; Kyub will most commonly be 252atk/252spe and the VR is not the end-all for everything relevant in 1v1.
It can be hard to concede victory, and I still do think that Kyurem is broken, but I agree with a lot of what you said. There's just something I want to bring up in regards to all of that.
You mentioned a high opportunity cost to using some of Kyurem's more niche sets. A while back, I did a post on predicting what set Kyurem is running (results: you can't predict it). In this post, I made a spreadsheet of everything on the VR vs Kyurem's relevant sets. UOP used his spreadsheet magic to determine what percent of matchups were wins. Note: these matchups were set to be in Kyurem's favor in cases where there is any discepancy about who would win, and is also not weighted by usage as this is what was useful for the purposes of that post. These numbers are useful here, but don't go around spamming them because they aren't accurate. It only works here because I am using these numbers to see how they stack up relative to each other and not anything else.
I'd go back through that chart if I were you. Off the bat, Blaziken is stated to lose against Scarf, when really it's a protect roll and for some reason Grassium Z Heatran is included?
Nonetheless this info is also useless. I would not be surprised that similar top tier mons would have 40-50% win rates with all their sets. If Kyurem-B is truly unpredictable, what would be important is that each set could beat the same large bulk up mon's and yet changing between sets grant an extra 4-5% wins without losing too many "core" wins.
I'd go back through that chart if I were you. Off the bat, Blaziken is stated to lose against Scarf, when really it's a protect roll and for some reason Grassium Z Heatran is included?
Nonetheless this info is also useless. I would not be surprised that similar top tier mons would have 40-50% win rates with all their sets. If Kyurem-B is truly unpredictable, what would be important is that each set could beat the same large bulk up mon's and yet changing between sets grant an extra 4-5% wins without losing too many "core" wins.
You took everything I said completely out of context... You have to understand, that as I spent half a paragraph explaining in my post, that I didn't make that chart with this in mind. My original post for which I designed that spreadsheet for was about predicting what set your opponent's Kyub is running based on team composition. So no, this info is not useful for most purposes, and I never claimed it was. All this was meant to do is use a previous resource to attain a rough estimate of the opportunity cost of each set relative to each other. Yeah, other top-tier mons probably would get that same 45% win rate with this method and I never claimed otherwise. This wasn't about proving that each of Kyurem's sets beats about half the meta, this was about, as I said before, analyzing an estimate of the opportunity cost of using niche sets. Yeah, I guess Blaziken should have been a 50/50 scenario. Does it really matter, though? On something that large, you're going to make mistakes period, but each mistake is only going to sway the numbers by an insignificant amount. I feel as if the only part of my post you read was the spreadsheet.
So, now that sleep is staying, this was more relevant when I started making this post ;X I'd like to suggest a theory that I believe infamous user 1vI has touched on before:
Metagross-Mega is broken in 1v1
Now, I know you guys must be thinking I'm being even crazier than usual, but a discussion brought up once in the room really opened my eyes. Someone had asked for some mons who counter Metagross 100%, and by the end of it, we were only able to name a few. Pretty much anything else used to check it falls below 80% certainty of defeating one of the possible viable sets.
And with that said, let's consider anything and everything Metagross-Mega can run to be considered viable:
Moves:
Bullet Punch, Meteor Mash, Iron Head, Zen Headbutt, Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Bulldoze, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch/Magnet Rise, Substitute, and Rock Slide/Tomb.
Spreads:
The standard Teambuilder-generated spreads:
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
The optimized spread to withstand Gyarados-Mega's +1 Crunch, Tapu Koko's Gigavolt Havoc, and more, made by the 1v1 community:
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 204 SpD / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
Now let's look at how popular this thing is among the ladder, as opposed to other current top mons of the tier:
1500 stats (The default minimum):
Metagross-Mega - #6 in 1v1 | Usage: 6.95323% | Raw count: 21,554 | Weight: 0.877542535311
Kyurem-Black - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 12.28874% | Raw count: 38,196 | Weight: 0.873968911833
Gyarados-Mega - #3 in 1v1 | Usage: 8.36564% | Raw count: 27,397 | Weight: 0.829072559365
Charizard-Mega-X - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 10.17236% | Raw count: 37,235 | Weight: 0.739424335852
Tapu Koko - #4 in 1v1 | Usage: 7.89194% | Raw count: 26,262 | Weight: 0.815427644145 1630 stats:
Metagross-Mega - #3 in 1v1 | Usage: 12.19678% | Raw count: 21,554 | Weight: 0.330944202221
Kyurem-Black - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 15.63889% | Raw count: 38,196 | Weight: 0.238744849125
Gyarados-Mega - #4 in 1v1 | Usage: 10.17276% | Raw count: 27,397 | Weight: 0.216639858603
Charizard-Mega-X - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 14.17108% | Raw count: 37,235 | Weight: 0.220912962919
Tapu Koko - #5 in 1v1 | Usage: 9.78115% | Raw count: 26,262 | Weight: 0.216956692188
1760 stats:
Metagross-Mega - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 18.37684% | Raw count: 21,554 | Weight: 0.0157987271387
Kyurem-Black - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 18.14777% | Raw count: 38,196 | Weight: 0.00877794362959
Gyarados-Mega - #3 in 1v1 | Usage: 14.19528% | Raw count: 27,397 | Weight: 0.00957822464482
Charizard-Mega-X - #6 in 1v1 | Usage: 12.37353% | Raw count: 37,235 | Weight: 0.00611157885423
Tapu Koko - #9 in 1v1 | Usage: 8.49073% | Raw count: 26,262 | Weight: 0.00596718576573
Now that we have an idea of what to expect from the mon itself, as well as how much you should expect to see it, let's look at how often it wins matchups with each set, considering all the moves it could use.
Key:
MAW = Metagross Always Wins - The chances of Metagross winning are about 85% or higher
MUW = Metagross Usually Wins - The chances of Metagross winning are about 60% - 85%
~50/50 = Uncertain for either side - The chances of Metagross winning are about 40% - 60%
MCW = Metagross Can Win - The chances of Metagross winning are about 15% - 40%
MAL = Metagross Always Loses - The chances of Metagross winning are less than 15%
Overall, Metagross will typically win this matchup with the right moveset, the odds of success only being boosted higher by how rarely experienced people use max Atk/Spe Gyarados.
Overall, Metagross pretty consistently counters just about anything Kyurem-Black can throw at it, with only a few sets even having a chance given that they're able to either safely take a hit + Bullet AND outspeed for the 2HKO, or getting the lucky roll against a 0 bulk Metagross with Weakness Policy-boosted Earth Power
A RANK
Charizard-Mega-X
Standard
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Optimized Standard
Adamant -MAL
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Bulky
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Not exactly Metagross' most ideal matchup, most matchups being won typically by Charizard Mega Evolving and Dancing up for the guaranteed OHKO, though Jolly Metagross has a chance by spamming Substitute for the Flare Blitz Recoil before finishing it off with Earthquake, the only risk being that the Charizard might use its own Substitute to automatically win, if you get predicted.
Special
Adamant - ~50/50 (Timid/Naive) / MAL (Modest/Rash)
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
Optimized Special
Adamant - ~50/50 (Timid/Naive) / MAL (Modest/Rash)
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
The generic spreads don't really fare too well against Koko, particularly the Specially offensive kind, but the custom spread is built to withstand anything and everything Koko can throw at it, besides critical hits.
Tapu Lele
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
[Insert Steel STAB here].
Aggron-Mega
Adamant -MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Aggron bulks everything Metagross can throw at it, not even needing Defense EVs to avoid being 2HKO'd by Hammer Arm. It'd take some serious flinching with Iron Head to make this matchup anywhere near favorable.
Charizard-Mega-Y
Standard
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Bulky
Adamant - MAW (If slow enough) / MAL (If fast enough)
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MCW (Very EV dependent)
This entire matchup pretty much depends completely on the EV spread of Charizard-Y, as well as the presence of Rock Slide in Metagross' moveset.
Dragonite
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
There are way too many iterations of Dragonite to go into detail for all of them, but more often than not, Metagross wins simply by hitting Dragonite twice with STABs, or even Ice Punch.
Special Mega
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Pretty mixed in matchups, Jolly is able to force a 50/50 with sub/zen vs protect/fire, while the other two have decent chances at standing up to a physical mega, but practically no chance against anything faster and special/z-move.
Garchomp
Groundium
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Band
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Other
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
All matchups made assuming Metagross has Ice Punch.
Genesect
Scarf
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Specs
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Flamethrower = die. Even Bug Buzz can do the trick.
Golem
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Magnet Rise is a killer. Get rid of it, however, and those W's become L's.
This matchup is pretty geared towards moveset. Metagross' assumed moveset here is Thunder Punch + Substitute.
Chansey
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Since Charm/Counter pretty much instantly wins, Metagross' only hope here is to get the nasty flinch hax.
Carracosta
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
+2 Earthquake only takes out Jolly on a high roll, but still just gets bopped by Hammer Arm and Bullet anyways.
Crustle
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
All matchups won by using Bullet Punch pre-mega and then finishing them off with either another Bullet if they Shell Smashed, or any other attack if they used Earthquake or Counter.
Ferrothorn
Standard Leech Seed
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Curse
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Iron Defense
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Matchups done without the consideration of Substitute, which probably still wouldn't change the result vs Curse and Iron Defense, only chance vs Standard set is getting high rolls with Max Attack Hammer Arm.
You might not even need steel type moves for this one.
Heatran
Bulky
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Speedy
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MUW
Matchups vs Bulky Heatran are assuming you get the Iron Head flinch and finish with Hammer/EQ, while matchups vs Speedy are instant loss for Adamant, and a decent chance of the custom spread being able to take a Timid Overheat.
Jirachi
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Only hope is the 20% Fire Punch burn.
Jumpluff
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Jolly speed ties while Adamant has decent chances of getting the Bullet KO if played right.
Kartana
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - ~50/50
Banded Night Slash can threaten the custom spread, but otherwise, Metagross has this.
Sableye-Mega
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Metagross has about as much chance of winning as Sableye has of missing Will-o-Wisp.
Sawk
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Use Bullet Punch pre-mega to avoid the bop from Counter and you can't really lose.
Physically defense Leech Seed is hard to break, but Specs Fire Blast has difficulty with bulky Metagross.
Diancie
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Steel moves = no chance.
Durant
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
Adamant hopes for misses to 2HKO the hustler, Jolly just plain 2HKOs with EQ then Hammer Arm while not getting OHKO'd, and Durant needs Crunch to 2hko the custom spread, while the custom spread 3HKO's with Hammer Arm and Bullet.
Adamant has a solid shot of 2HKOing with Bullet, factoring that in with the 40% miss chance and the 33% chance to wake up first turn makes things favorable for Metagross.
Latios
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
Only Specs Shadow Ball has a chance vs the custom spread, but it still isn't very likely.
Assuming GeneMew runs Overheat and ~0 Speed EVS (Most frequent in usage), Metagross wins most of the time by just spamming Iron Head, not even needing the hax very much if at all. Bulky Mew, on the other hand, can only be threatened by Substitute and hax, and even then, the odds aren't really in Metagross' favor.
Pheromosa
Physical
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Special
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
Z-Focus Blast is all that Phero has going for it in this matchup.
Terrakion
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Any STAB is just an automatic win
Umbreon
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Adamant at least has a chance with Hammer Arm and hoping for a flinch/crit with Iron Head to finish with another Hammer after being Z-Charmed, but that's as good as it gets. (using the top usage Umbreon spread)
Whimsicott
Babiri Berry
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Jolly wins over Babiri by outspeeding AND using Bullet, Cotton Guard is forced to a 50/50 if Metagross has Substitute, and all Whimsicott can be bulked to withstand an attack from the custom spread.
C RANK
Archeops
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Only chance this thing has at all is speed tying Jolly and KOing with a Z-move, but even then Metagross can just Bullet Punch and win.
The best chance it has is with weakness policy against Jolly, but even that can end up falling to an Iron Head flinch, everything else just ends up taking the gamble that they don't get screwed over by crit/flinches.
Hoopa-Unbound
Scarf
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MUW
Specs
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Other
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Scarf Dark Pulse can't possibly OHKO the bulky spreads, and it just ends up being picked off, while Bulky Specs takes the risk of being flinched or crit.
Keldeo
Speedy
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
Bulky
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MAW
Most of these matchups are either dependent upon Scald landing a burn, or surviving Zen Headbutt if you're bulky.
Landorus-Incarnate
Life Orb
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MCW
Scarf
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MUW
Ice Punch is required on the custom spread, but the other two can Meteor/Iron and Bullet.
Marowak-Alola
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MAL
Flare Blitz hurts too much, and can just use Shadow Bone afterwards if you try to Sub spam for the recoil. You can go for the Iron Head flinch to finish it with EQ, but that's about as good a chance as it gets.
Fake Out + HJK can take out Jolly, but Meteor Mash can also OHKO on a solid roll, if no bulk investment.
Victini
Speedy
Adamant - MCW (Scarf) / MAL (Band)
Jolly - MAL (Scarf) / MCW (Band)
Impish - MAW (Scarf) / MAL (Band)
Bulky Band
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Metagross actually has a surprisingly decent chance of surviving Scarfed V-Create, but in the case of Band or other non-Scarf sets, it's pretty much dependent upon Metagross getting a lucky Rock Slide flinch and snagging the 2HKO.
Dusclops
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Metagross only has a chance here because it can use Substitute.
Hitmonlee
Normal Gem
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Liechi
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
You'd have to either try pretty darn hard or not have Bullet Punch in order to lose this matchup.
Infernape
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Any kind of boosted fire move makes this an automatic loss for anything slower.
Lucario-Mega
Physical
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Special
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Lucario doesn't really have much of a chance here beyond hoping for Hammer Arm misses and Dark Pulse flinches.
Regular Pidgeot kinda just loses, with their only chance of winning being a Heat Wave crit/burn, which is less than 1% more likely than Will-o-Wisp missing. The best chance it has vs the famed Bulky Birb, however, is by relying on Rock Tomb without mega evolving and hoping they don't go for Heat Wave when you do so.
Quagsire
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MAL
Kentari can vouch for probability management playing a big role in this matchup.
Relicanth
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Substitute shenanigans kinda skew this matchup, so we'll just pretend it doesn't exist for this one. With that said, Relicanth needs a 3 turn sleep in order to win using Earthquake.
Thundurus-Therian
Specs
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Z-move
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Specs Dark Pulse hax makes things uncertain for any Metagross slower, while also OHKO-ing Jolly, usually. Bulky Z move, on the other hand, is a bit more challenging for Metagross to beat, so it ends up relying on haxing Thundy for the win.
Without assuming you have Sub, you're basically just hoping for Iron Head flinches.
Azumarill
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Adamant Metagross 2HKOs pretty easily, while Z-Aqua Tail can be pretty threatening to the other two if they don't get good RNG/rolls.
Clefable
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
S/O to the babiri Counter Clefable I used last gen-
Latias
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MAL
Meteor Mash boosts pre-mega and crits are pretty much all you have going for you in this matchup. Reflect Type always wins, I guess, but Charm is used more/generally better by far.
Necrozma
Specs
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - ~50/50
Z-move
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Adamant 2HKOs with Iron Head, Jolly does the same with Meteor Mash, while Impish relies on Iron Head haxing. Iron Defense Necrozma causes difficulties that can only be solved via haxing.
Adamant has a decent chance of 2HKOing max bulk with Hammer Arm, the miss chances bring that down to about a 50/50, though. The other sets just rely on good old-fashioned skill hax.
Salazzle
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
Fake Out and Overheat are just short of 2HKOing the custom spread. Z-Fire just kinda wrecks them all, however.
Scizor-Mega
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
This guy is the OU dedicated Metagross Counter for good reason.
Slaking
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MUW (Depends on whether you outspeed or not) / MAW (Hammer Arm)
Banded Earthquake OHKOs Jolly pretty easily, but Flinches put the odds quite a bit less in Slaking's favor.
Smeargle
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MCW
Everyone loves praying for that 1/3 chance at waking up, right?
Stunfisk
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Ignoring the existence of Sub and Magnet Rise, it's just another round of praying for the 1/3 wakeup for Jolly and Impish, while Adamant pretty much safely 2HKOs with Iron Head and EQ, possibly auto-winning with a Flinch.
Vivillon
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
It takes a lot of hope for Vivillon to win this matchup.
So, looking at this list we have here, we can conclude that there are only ten sets that will about automatically win without needing to worry about avoiding hax or knowing which set Metagross is:
Bulky Charizard-X
Mega Aggron
Mega Slowbro
Genesect
Ferrothorn
Sableye
Special Victini
Dusclops
Mega Camerupt
Mega Scizor
All this evidence is to say that Metagross is broken in 1v1 because it has high enough usage to be overcentralizing, low opportunity cost involved in switching between its plethora of move and spread options, and a limited number of more or less guaranteed counters.
Posting a bit sooner than I'd like because computer is threatening me with a restart ;-;
So, now that sleep is staying, this was more relevant when I started making this post ;X I'd like to suggest a theory that I believe infamous user 1vI has touched on before:
Now, I know you guys must be thinking I'm being even crazier than usual, but a discussion brought up once in the room really opened my eyes. Someone had asked for some mons who counter Metagross 100%, and by the end of it, we were only able to name a few. Pretty much anything else used to check it falls below 80% certainty of defeating one of the possible viable sets.
And with that said, let's consider anything and everything Metagross-Mega can run to be considered viable:
Moves:
Bullet Punch, Meteor Mash, Iron Head, Zen Headbutt, Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Bulldoze, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch/Magnet Rise, Substitute, and Rock Slide/Tomb.
Spreads:
The standard Teambuilder-generated spreads:
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
The optimized spread to withstand Gyarados-Mega's +1 Crunch, Tapu Koko's Gigavolt Havoc, and more, made by the 1v1 community:
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 204 SpD / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
Now let's look at how popular this thing is among the ladder, as opposed to other current top mons of the tier:
1500 stats (The default minimum):
Metagross-Mega - #6 in 1v1 | Usage: 6.95323% | Raw count: 21,554 | Weight: 0.877542535311
Kyurem-Black - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 12.28874% | Raw count: 38,196 | Weight: 0.873968911833
Gyarados-Mega - #3 in 1v1 | Usage: 8.36564% | Raw count: 27,397 | Weight: 0.829072559365
Charizard-Mega-X - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 10.17236% | Raw count: 37,235 | Weight: 0.739424335852
Tapu Koko - #4 in 1v1 | Usage: 7.89194% | Raw count: 26,262 | Weight: 0.815427644145 1630 stats:
Metagross-Mega - #3 in 1v1 | Usage: 12.19678% | Raw count: 21,554 | Weight: 0.330944202221
Kyurem-Black - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 15.63889% | Raw count: 38,196 | Weight: 0.238744849125
Gyarados-Mega - #4 in 1v1 | Usage: 10.17276% | Raw count: 27,397 | Weight: 0.216639858603
Charizard-Mega-X - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 14.17108% | Raw count: 37,235 | Weight: 0.220912962919
Tapu Koko - #5 in 1v1 | Usage: 9.78115% | Raw count: 26,262 | Weight: 0.216956692188
1760 stats:
Metagross-Mega - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 18.37684% | Raw count: 21,554 | Weight: 0.0157987271387
Kyurem-Black - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 18.14777% | Raw count: 38,196 | Weight: 0.00877794362959
Gyarados-Mega - #3 in 1v1 | Usage: 14.19528% | Raw count: 27,397 | Weight: 0.00957822464482
Charizard-Mega-X - #6 in 1v1 | Usage: 12.37353% | Raw count: 37,235 | Weight: 0.00611157885423
Tapu Koko - #9 in 1v1 | Usage: 8.49073% | Raw count: 26,262 | Weight: 0.00596718576573
Now that we have an idea of what to expect from the mon itself, as well as how much you should expect to see it, let's look at how often it wins matchups with each set, considering all the moves it could use.
Key:
MAW = Metagross Always Wins - The chances of Metagross winning are about 85% or higher
MUW = Metagross Usually Wins - The chances of Metagross winning are about 60% - 85%
~50/50 = Uncertain for either side - The chances of Metagross winning are about 40% - 60%
MCW = Metagross Can Win - The chances of Metagross winning are about 15% - 40%
MAL = Metagross Always Loses - The chances of Metagross winning are less than 15%
Overall, Metagross will typically win this matchup with the right moveset, the odds of success only being boosted higher by how rarely experienced people use max Atk/Spe Gyarados.
Overall, Metagross pretty consistently counters just about anything Kyurem-Black can throw at it, with only a few sets even having a chance given that they're able to either safely take a hit + Bullet AND outspeed for the 2HKO, or getting the lucky roll against a 0 bulk Metagross with Weakness Policy-boosted Earth Power
A RANK
Charizard-Mega-X
Standard
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Optimized Standard
Adamant -MAL
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Bulky
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Not exactly Metagross' most ideal matchup, most matchups being won typically by Charizard Mega Evolving and Dancing up for the guaranteed OHKO, though Jolly Metagross has a chance by spamming Substitute for the Flare Blitz Recoil before finishing it off with Earthquake, the only risk being that the Charizard might use its own Substitute to automatically win, if you get predicted.
Special
Adamant - ~50/50 (Timid/Naive) / MAL (Modest/Rash)
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
Optimized Special
Adamant - ~50/50 (Timid/Naive) / MAL (Modest/Rash)
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
The generic spreads don't really fare too well against Koko, particularly the Specially offensive kind, but the custom spread is built to withstand anything and everything Koko can throw at it, besides critical hits.
Tapu Lele
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
[Insert Steel STAB here].
Aggron-Mega
Adamant -MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Aggron bulks everything Metagross can throw at it, not even needing Defense EVs to avoid being 2HKO'd by Hammer Arm. It'd take some serious flinching with Iron Head to make this matchup anywhere near favorable.
Charizard-Mega-Y
Standard
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Bulky
Adamant - MAW (If slow enough) / MAL (If fast enough)
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MCW (Very EV dependent)
This entire matchup pretty much depends completely on the EV spread of Charizard-Y, as well as the presence of Rock Slide in Metagross' moveset.
Dragonite
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
There are way too many iterations of Dragonite to go into detail for all of them, but more often than not, Metagross wins simply by hitting Dragonite twice with STABs, or even Ice Punch.
Special Mega
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Pretty mixed in matchups, Jolly is able to force a 50/50 with sub/zen vs protect/fire, while the other two have decent chances at standing up to a physical mega, but practically no chance against anything faster and special/z-move.
Garchomp
Groundium
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Band
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Other
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
All matchups made assuming Metagross has Ice Punch.
Genesect
Scarf
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Specs
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Flamethrower = die. Even Bug Buzz can do the trick.
Golem
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Magnet Rise is a killer. Get rid of it, however, and those W's become L's.
This matchup is pretty geared towards moveset. Metagross' assumed moveset here is Thunder Punch + Substitute.
Chansey
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Since Charm/Counter pretty much instantly wins, Metagross' only hope here is to get the nasty flinch hax.
Carracosta
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
+2 Earthquake only takes out Jolly on a high roll, but still just gets bopped by Hammer Arm and Bullet anyways.
Crustle
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
All matchups won by using Bullet Punch pre-mega and then finishing them off with either another Bullet if they Shell Smashed, or any other attack if they used Earthquake or Counter.
Ferrothorn
Standard Leech Seed
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Curse
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Iron Defense
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Matchups done without the consideration of Substitute, which probably still wouldn't change the result vs Curse and Iron Defense, only chance vs Standard set is getting high rolls with Max Attack Hammer Arm.
You might not even need steel type moves for this one.
Heatran
Bulky
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Speedy
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MUW
Matchups vs Bulky Heatran are assuming you get the Iron Head flinch and finish with Hammer/EQ, while matchups vs Speedy are instant loss for Adamant, and a decent chance of the custom spread being able to take a Timid Overheat.
Jirachi
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Only hope is the 20% Fire Punch burn.
Jumpluff
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Jolly speed ties while Adamant has decent chances of getting the Bullet KO if played right.
Kartana
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - ~50/50
Banded Night Slash can threaten the custom spread, but otherwise, Metagross has this.
Sableye-Mega
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Metagross has about as much chance of winning as Sableye has of missing Will-o-Wisp.
Sawk
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Use Bullet Punch pre-mega to avoid the bop from Counter and you can't really lose.
Physically defense Leech Seed is hard to break, but Specs Fire Blast has difficulty with bulky Metagross.
Diancie
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Steel moves = no chance.
Durant
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
Adamant hopes for misses to 2HKO the hustler, Jolly just plain 2HKOs with EQ then Hammer Arm while not getting OHKO'd, and Durant needs Crunch to 2hko the custom spread, while the custom spread 3HKO's with Hammer Arm and Bullet.
Adamant has a solid shot of 2HKOing with Bullet, factoring that in with the 40% miss chance and the 33% chance to wake up first turn makes things favorable for Metagross.
Latios
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
Only Specs Shadow Ball has a chance vs the custom spread, but it still isn't very likely.
Assuming GeneMew runs Overheat and ~0 Speed EVS (Most frequent in usage), Metagross wins most of the time by just spamming Iron Head, not even needing the hax very much if at all. Bulky Mew, on the other hand, can only be threatened by Substitute and hax, and even then, the odds aren't really in Metagross' favor.
Pheromosa
Physical
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Special
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
Z-Focus Blast is all that Phero has going for it in this matchup.
Terrakion
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Any STAB is just an automatic win
Umbreon
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Adamant at least has a chance with Hammer Arm and hoping for a flinch/crit with Iron Head to finish with another Hammer after being Z-Charmed, but that's as good as it gets. (using the top usage Umbreon spread)
Whimsicott
Babiri Berry
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Jolly wins over Babiri by outspeeding AND using Bullet, Cotton Guard is forced to a 50/50 if Metagross has Substitute, and all Whimsicott can be bulked to withstand an attack from the custom spread.
C RANK
Archeops
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Only chance this thing has at all is speed tying Jolly and KOing with a Z-move, but even then Metagross can just Bullet Punch and win.
The best chance it has is with weakness policy against Jolly, but even that can end up falling to an Iron Head flinch, everything else just ends up taking the gamble that they don't get screwed over by crit/flinches.
Hoopa-Unbound
Scarf
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MUW
Specs
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Other
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Scarf Dark Pulse can't possibly OHKO the bulky spreads, and it just ends up being picked off, while Bulky Specs takes the risk of being flinched or crit.
Keldeo
Speedy
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
Bulky
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MAW
Most of these matchups are either dependent upon Scald landing a burn, or surviving Zen Headbutt if you're bulky.
Landorus-Incarnate
Life Orb
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MCW
Scarf
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MUW
Ice Punch is required on the custom spread, but the other two can Meteor/Iron and Bullet.
Marowak-Alola
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MAL
Flare Blitz hurts too much, and can just use Shadow Bone afterwards if you try to Sub spam for the recoil. You can go for the Iron Head flinch to finish it with EQ, but that's about as good a chance as it gets.
Fake Out + HJK can take out Jolly, but Meteor Mash can also OHKO on a solid roll, if no bulk investment.
Victini
Speedy
Adamant - MCW (Scarf) / MAL (Band)
Jolly - MAL (Scarf) / MCW (Band)
Impish - MAW (Scarf) / MAL (Band)
Bulky Band
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Metagross actually has a surprisingly decent chance of surviving Scarfed V-Create, but in the case of Band or other non-Scarf sets, it's pretty much dependent upon Metagross getting a lucky Rock Slide flinch and snagging the 2HKO.
Dusclops
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Metagross only has a chance here because it can use Substitute.
Hitmonlee
Normal Gem
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Liechi
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
You'd have to either try pretty darn hard or not have Bullet Punch in order to lose this matchup.
Infernape
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Any kind of boosted fire move makes this an automatic loss for anything slower.
Lucario-Mega
Physical
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Special
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Lucario doesn't really have much of a chance here beyond hoping for Hammer Arm misses and Dark Pulse flinches.
Regular Pidgeot kinda just loses, with their only chance of winning being a Heat Wave crit/burn, which is less than 1% more likely than Will-o-Wisp missing. The best chance it has vs the famed Bulky Birb, however, is by relying on Rock Tomb without mega evolving and hoping they don't go for Heat Wave when you do so.
Quagsire
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MAL
Kentari can vouch for probability management playing a big role in this matchup.
Relicanth
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Substitute shenanigans kinda skew this matchup, so we'll just pretend it doesn't exist for this one. With that said, Relicanth needs a 3 turn sleep in order to win using Earthquake.
Thundurus-Therian
Specs
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Z-move
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Specs Dark Pulse hax makes things uncertain for any Metagross slower, while also OHKO-ing Jolly, usually. Bulky Z move, on the other hand, is a bit more challenging for Metagross to beat, so it ends up relying on haxing Thundy for the win.
Without assuming you have Sub, you're basically just hoping for Iron Head flinches.
Azumarill
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Adamant Metagross 2HKOs pretty easily, while Z-Aqua Tail can be pretty threatening to the other two if they don't get good RNG/rolls.
Clefable
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
S/O to the babiri Counter Clefable I used last gen-
Latias
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MAL
Meteor Mash boosts pre-mega and crits are pretty much all you have going for you in this matchup. Reflect Type always wins, I guess, but Charm is used more/generally better by far.
Necrozma
Specs
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - ~50/50
Z-move
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Adamant 2HKOs with Iron Head, Jolly does the same with Meteor Mash, while Impish relies on Iron Head haxing. Iron Defense Necrozma causes difficulties that can only be solved via haxing.
Adamant has a decent chance of 2HKOing max bulk with Hammer Arm, the miss chances bring that down to about a 50/50, though. The other sets just rely on good old-fashioned skill hax.
Salazzle
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
Fake Out and Overheat are just short of 2HKOing the custom spread. Z-Fire just kinda wrecks them all, however.
Scizor-Mega
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
This guy is the OU dedicated Metagross Counter for good reason.
Slaking
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MUW (Depends on whether you outspeed or not) / MAW (Hammer Arm)
Banded Earthquake OHKOs Jolly pretty easily, but Flinches put the odds quite a bit less in Slaking's favor.
Smeargle
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MCW
Everyone loves praying for that 1/3 chance at waking up, right?
Stunfisk
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Ignoring the existence of Sub and Magnet Rise, it's just another round of praying for the 1/3 wakeup for Jolly and Impish, while Adamant pretty much safely 2HKOs with Iron Head and EQ, possibly auto-winning with a Flinch.
Vivillon
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
It takes a lot of hope for Vivillon to win this matchup.
So, looking at this list we have here, we can conclude that there are only ten sets that will about automatically win without needing to worry about avoiding hax or knowing which set Metagross is:
Bulky Charizard-X
Mega Aggron
Mega Slowbro
Genesect
Ferrothorn
Sableye
Special Victini
Dusclops
Mega Camerupt
Mega Scizor
All this evidence is to say that Metagross is broken in 1v1 because it has high enough usage to be overcentralizing, low opportunity cost involved in switching between its plethora of move and spread options, and a limited number of more or less guaranteed counters.
Posting a bit sooner than I'd like because computer is threatening me with a restart ;-;
You live z-Hurricane into Extreme Speed from Dragonite. This set used to have cooler moves like Fire Blast, Wonder Room, and Rest. But this is probably the better set. You’re faster than Adamant Lando-T. Between Sub, Cotton Guard, and Roost you have a great Normalium Snorlax matchup.
Altaria gets merced by Tapu Lele, so we add the most broken counter to it. This illustrates two things about the way I make teams. 1. I limit my memes to between 1 and 1 1/2 pokemon. Anything more than that and the weaknesses of the bad mons compound on each other and leave you with a bad team. Only Macemaster, Partys Over, and UOP can get away with running teams full of memes, and even they will tell you it’s easier to win with the broken mons. 2. I like to hedge my bets by including more than one counter for a mon. Both Mega-Alt and Metagross beat Gyara, even though I really only need one of them to beat it.
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
Happiness: 0
EVs: 148 HP / 200 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Bone
- Low Kick
- Stone Edge
- Flare Blitz
I needed something to beat Genesect, Aegislash, and Tapu Koko. Stone Edge kos 0 hp Charizard X. I have 160 speed so that I’m faster than Chansey and can crit it. That’s probably wrong, but this mon’s EVs don’t matter too much. You should probably give it the best chance you can against Mega-Slowbro or something similar. This doesn’t actually beat Aegislash but Shadow Bone isn’t a contact move so sometimes it works out.
This team can’t really beat Mega-Venusaur or Stall, but a little counter-teaming can fix that in no time.
So, now that sleep is staying, this was more relevant when I started making this post ;X I'd like to suggest a theory that I believe infamous user 1vI has touched on before:
Now, I know you guys must be thinking I'm being even crazier than usual, but a discussion brought up once in the room really opened my eyes. Someone had asked for some mons who counter Metagross 100%, and by the end of it, we were only able to name a few. Pretty much anything else used to check it falls below 80% certainty of defeating one of the possible viable sets.
And with that said, let's consider anything and everything Metagross-Mega can run to be considered viable:
Moves:
Bullet Punch, Meteor Mash, Iron Head, Zen Headbutt, Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Bulldoze, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch/Magnet Rise, Substitute, and Rock Slide/Tomb.
Spreads:
The standard Teambuilder-generated spreads:
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
The optimized spread to withstand Gyarados-Mega's +1 Crunch, Tapu Koko's Gigavolt Havoc, and more, made by the 1v1 community:
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 204 SpD / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
Now let's look at how popular this thing is among the ladder, as opposed to other current top mons of the tier:
1500 stats (The default minimum):
Metagross-Mega - #6 in 1v1 | Usage: 6.95323% | Raw count: 21,554 | Weight: 0.877542535311
Kyurem-Black - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 12.28874% | Raw count: 38,196 | Weight: 0.873968911833
Gyarados-Mega - #3 in 1v1 | Usage: 8.36564% | Raw count: 27,397 | Weight: 0.829072559365
Charizard-Mega-X - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 10.17236% | Raw count: 37,235 | Weight: 0.739424335852
Tapu Koko - #4 in 1v1 | Usage: 7.89194% | Raw count: 26,262 | Weight: 0.815427644145 1630 stats:
Metagross-Mega - #3 in 1v1 | Usage: 12.19678% | Raw count: 21,554 | Weight: 0.330944202221
Kyurem-Black - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 15.63889% | Raw count: 38,196 | Weight: 0.238744849125
Gyarados-Mega - #4 in 1v1 | Usage: 10.17276% | Raw count: 27,397 | Weight: 0.216639858603
Charizard-Mega-X - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 14.17108% | Raw count: 37,235 | Weight: 0.220912962919
Tapu Koko - #5 in 1v1 | Usage: 9.78115% | Raw count: 26,262 | Weight: 0.216956692188
1760 stats:
Metagross-Mega - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 18.37684% | Raw count: 21,554 | Weight: 0.0157987271387
Kyurem-Black - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 18.14777% | Raw count: 38,196 | Weight: 0.00877794362959
Gyarados-Mega - #3 in 1v1 | Usage: 14.19528% | Raw count: 27,397 | Weight: 0.00957822464482
Charizard-Mega-X - #6 in 1v1 | Usage: 12.37353% | Raw count: 37,235 | Weight: 0.00611157885423
Tapu Koko - #9 in 1v1 | Usage: 8.49073% | Raw count: 26,262 | Weight: 0.00596718576573
Now that we have an idea of what to expect from the mon itself, as well as how much you should expect to see it, let's look at how often it wins matchups with each set, considering all the moves it could use.
Key:
MAW = Metagross Always Wins - The chances of Metagross winning are about 85% or higher
MUW = Metagross Usually Wins - The chances of Metagross winning are about 60% - 85%
~50/50 = Uncertain for either side - The chances of Metagross winning are about 40% - 60%
MCW = Metagross Can Win - The chances of Metagross winning are about 15% - 40%
MAL = Metagross Always Loses - The chances of Metagross winning are less than 15%
Overall, Metagross will typically win this matchup with the right moveset, the odds of success only being boosted higher by how rarely experienced people use max Atk/Spe Gyarados.
Overall, Metagross pretty consistently counters just about anything Kyurem-Black can throw at it, with only a few sets even having a chance given that they're able to either safely take a hit + Bullet AND outspeed for the 2HKO, or getting the lucky roll against a 0 bulk Metagross with Weakness Policy-boosted Earth Power
A RANK
Charizard-Mega-X
Standard
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Optimized Standard
Adamant -MAL
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Bulky
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Not exactly Metagross' most ideal matchup, most matchups being won typically by Charizard Mega Evolving and Dancing up for the guaranteed OHKO, though Jolly Metagross has a chance by spamming Substitute for the Flare Blitz Recoil before finishing it off with Earthquake, the only risk being that the Charizard might use its own Substitute to automatically win, if you get predicted.
Special
Adamant - ~50/50 (Timid/Naive) / MAL (Modest/Rash)
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
Optimized Special
Adamant - ~50/50 (Timid/Naive) / MAL (Modest/Rash)
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
The generic spreads don't really fare too well against Koko, particularly the Specially offensive kind, but the custom spread is built to withstand anything and everything Koko can throw at it, besides critical hits.
Tapu Lele
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
[Insert Steel STAB here].
Aggron-Mega
Adamant -MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Aggron bulks everything Metagross can throw at it, not even needing Defense EVs to avoid being 2HKO'd by Hammer Arm. It'd take some serious flinching with Iron Head to make this matchup anywhere near favorable.
Charizard-Mega-Y
Standard
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Bulky
Adamant - MAW (If slow enough) / MAL (If fast enough)
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MCW (Very EV dependent)
This entire matchup pretty much depends completely on the EV spread of Charizard-Y, as well as the presence of Rock Slide in Metagross' moveset.
Dragonite
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
There are way too many iterations of Dragonite to go into detail for all of them, but more often than not, Metagross wins simply by hitting Dragonite twice with STABs, or even Ice Punch.
Special Mega
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Pretty mixed in matchups, Jolly is able to force a 50/50 with sub/zen vs protect/fire, while the other two have decent chances at standing up to a physical mega, but practically no chance against anything faster and special/z-move.
Garchomp
Groundium
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Band
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Other
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
All matchups made assuming Metagross has Ice Punch.
Genesect
Scarf
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Specs
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Flamethrower = die. Even Bug Buzz can do the trick.
Golem
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Magnet Rise is a killer. Get rid of it, however, and those W's become L's.
This matchup is pretty geared towards moveset. Metagross' assumed moveset here is Thunder Punch + Substitute.
Chansey
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Since Charm/Counter pretty much instantly wins, Metagross' only hope here is to get the nasty flinch hax.
Carracosta
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
+2 Earthquake only takes out Jolly on a high roll, but still just gets bopped by Hammer Arm and Bullet anyways.
Crustle
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
All matchups won by using Bullet Punch pre-mega and then finishing them off with either another Bullet if they Shell Smashed, or any other attack if they used Earthquake or Counter.
Ferrothorn
Standard Leech Seed
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Curse
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Iron Defense
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Matchups done without the consideration of Substitute, which probably still wouldn't change the result vs Curse and Iron Defense, only chance vs Standard set is getting high rolls with Max Attack Hammer Arm.
You might not even need steel type moves for this one.
Heatran
Bulky
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Speedy
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MUW
Matchups vs Bulky Heatran are assuming you get the Iron Head flinch and finish with Hammer/EQ, while matchups vs Speedy are instant loss for Adamant, and a decent chance of the custom spread being able to take a Timid Overheat.
Jirachi
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Only hope is the 20% Fire Punch burn.
Jumpluff
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Jolly speed ties while Adamant has decent chances of getting the Bullet KO if played right.
Kartana
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - ~50/50
Banded Night Slash can threaten the custom spread, but otherwise, Metagross has this.
Sableye-Mega
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Metagross has about as much chance of winning as Sableye has of missing Will-o-Wisp.
Sawk
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Use Bullet Punch pre-mega to avoid the bop from Counter and you can't really lose.
Physically defense Leech Seed is hard to break, but Specs Fire Blast has difficulty with bulky Metagross.
Diancie
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Steel moves = no chance.
Durant
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
Adamant hopes for misses to 2HKO the hustler, Jolly just plain 2HKOs with EQ then Hammer Arm while not getting OHKO'd, and Durant needs Crunch to 2hko the custom spread, while the custom spread 3HKO's with Hammer Arm and Bullet.
Adamant has a solid shot of 2HKOing with Bullet, factoring that in with the 40% miss chance and the 33% chance to wake up first turn makes things favorable for Metagross.
Latios
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
Only Specs Shadow Ball has a chance vs the custom spread, but it still isn't very likely.
Assuming GeneMew runs Overheat and ~0 Speed EVS (Most frequent in usage), Metagross wins most of the time by just spamming Iron Head, not even needing the hax very much if at all. Bulky Mew, on the other hand, can only be threatened by Substitute and hax, and even then, the odds aren't really in Metagross' favor.
Pheromosa
Physical
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Special
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
Z-Focus Blast is all that Phero has going for it in this matchup.
Terrakion
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Any STAB is just an automatic win
Umbreon
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Adamant at least has a chance with Hammer Arm and hoping for a flinch/crit with Iron Head to finish with another Hammer after being Z-Charmed, but that's as good as it gets. (using the top usage Umbreon spread)
Whimsicott
Babiri Berry
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Jolly wins over Babiri by outspeeding AND using Bullet, Cotton Guard is forced to a 50/50 if Metagross has Substitute, and all Whimsicott can be bulked to withstand an attack from the custom spread.
C RANK
Archeops
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Only chance this thing has at all is speed tying Jolly and KOing with a Z-move, but even then Metagross can just Bullet Punch and win.
The best chance it has is with weakness policy against Jolly, but even that can end up falling to an Iron Head flinch, everything else just ends up taking the gamble that they don't get screwed over by crit/flinches.
Hoopa-Unbound
Scarf
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MUW
Specs
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Other
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Scarf Dark Pulse can't possibly OHKO the bulky spreads, and it just ends up being picked off, while Bulky Specs takes the risk of being flinched or crit.
Keldeo
Speedy
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
Bulky
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MAW
Most of these matchups are either dependent upon Scald landing a burn, or surviving Zen Headbutt if you're bulky.
Landorus-Incarnate
Life Orb
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MCW
Scarf
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MUW
Ice Punch is required on the custom spread, but the other two can Meteor/Iron and Bullet.
Marowak-Alola
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MAL
Flare Blitz hurts too much, and can just use Shadow Bone afterwards if you try to Sub spam for the recoil. You can go for the Iron Head flinch to finish it with EQ, but that's about as good a chance as it gets.
Fake Out + HJK can take out Jolly, but Meteor Mash can also OHKO on a solid roll, if no bulk investment.
Victini
Speedy
Adamant - MCW (Scarf) / MAL (Band)
Jolly - MAL (Scarf) / MCW (Band)
Impish - MAW (Scarf) / MAL (Band)
Bulky Band
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Metagross actually has a surprisingly decent chance of surviving Scarfed V-Create, but in the case of Band or other non-Scarf sets, it's pretty much dependent upon Metagross getting a lucky Rock Slide flinch and snagging the 2HKO.
Dusclops
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Metagross only has a chance here because it can use Substitute.
Hitmonlee
Normal Gem
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Liechi
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
You'd have to either try pretty darn hard or not have Bullet Punch in order to lose this matchup.
Infernape
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Any kind of boosted fire move makes this an automatic loss for anything slower.
Lucario-Mega
Physical
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Special
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Lucario doesn't really have much of a chance here beyond hoping for Hammer Arm misses and Dark Pulse flinches.
Regular Pidgeot kinda just loses, with their only chance of winning being a Heat Wave crit/burn, which is less than 1% more likely than Will-o-Wisp missing. The best chance it has vs the famed Bulky Birb, however, is by relying on Rock Tomb without mega evolving and hoping they don't go for Heat Wave when you do so.
Quagsire
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MAL
Kentari can vouch for probability management playing a big role in this matchup.
Relicanth
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Substitute shenanigans kinda skew this matchup, so we'll just pretend it doesn't exist for this one. With that said, Relicanth needs a 3 turn sleep in order to win using Earthquake.
Thundurus-Therian
Specs
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Z-move
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Specs Dark Pulse hax makes things uncertain for any Metagross slower, while also OHKO-ing Jolly, usually. Bulky Z move, on the other hand, is a bit more challenging for Metagross to beat, so it ends up relying on haxing Thundy for the win.
Without assuming you have Sub, you're basically just hoping for Iron Head flinches.
Azumarill
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Adamant Metagross 2HKOs pretty easily, while Z-Aqua Tail can be pretty threatening to the other two if they don't get good RNG/rolls.
Clefable
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
S/O to the babiri Counter Clefable I used last gen-
Latias
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MAL
Meteor Mash boosts pre-mega and crits are pretty much all you have going for you in this matchup. Reflect Type always wins, I guess, but Charm is used more/generally better by far.
Necrozma
Specs
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - ~50/50
Z-move
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Adamant 2HKOs with Iron Head, Jolly does the same with Meteor Mash, while Impish relies on Iron Head haxing. Iron Defense Necrozma causes difficulties that can only be solved via haxing.
Adamant has a decent chance of 2HKOing max bulk with Hammer Arm, the miss chances bring that down to about a 50/50, though. The other sets just rely on good old-fashioned skill hax.
Salazzle
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
Fake Out and Overheat are just short of 2HKOing the custom spread. Z-Fire just kinda wrecks them all, however.
Scizor-Mega
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
This guy is the OU dedicated Metagross Counter for good reason.
Slaking
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MUW (Depends on whether you outspeed or not) / MAW (Hammer Arm)
Banded Earthquake OHKOs Jolly pretty easily, but Flinches put the odds quite a bit less in Slaking's favor.
Smeargle
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MCW
Everyone loves praying for that 1/3 chance at waking up, right?
Stunfisk
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Ignoring the existence of Sub and Magnet Rise, it's just another round of praying for the 1/3 wakeup for Jolly and Impish, while Adamant pretty much safely 2HKOs with Iron Head and EQ, possibly auto-winning with a Flinch.
Vivillon
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
It takes a lot of hope for Vivillon to win this matchup.
So, looking at this list we have here, we can conclude that there are only ten sets that will about automatically win without needing to worry about avoiding hax or knowing which set Metagross is:
Bulky Charizard-X
Mega Aggron
Mega Slowbro
Genesect
Ferrothorn
Sableye
Special Victini
Dusclops
Mega Camerupt
Mega Scizor
All this evidence is to say that Metagross is broken in 1v1 because it has high enough usage to be overcentralizing, low opportunity cost involved in switching between its plethora of move and spread options, and a limited number of more or less guaranteed counters.
Posting a bit sooner than I'd like because computer is threatening me with a restart ;-;
Would just like to add special fightinium z pheromosa, and 252 hp / 252+ spa heatran to that list of mons, and kent quagsire loses to the somewhat (not really) common grass knot, which glyx should include in the move list since it has actually seen a fair amount of usage
Would just like to add special fightinium z pheromosa, and 252 hp / 252+ spa heatran to that list of mons, and kent quagsire loses to the somewhat (not really) common grass knot, which glyx should include in the move list since it has actually seen a fair amount of usage
Grass Knot is considerable, but doesn't see enough usage, and would also force Metagross to run an alternate nature, since 0- Grass Knot doesn't get the job done.
Tomorrow, Monday 16th of October we're going to host a Suspect Test tournament (Single Elimination) in the 1v1 room at 12:00 PM EST / 5 PM GMT, where winner will get automatically requirements for the Kyurem-Black suspect test. This will be a scripted tournament using the tournament feature on PS! and not a live tournament. If we get a lot of users* joining we might give requirements to both finalists.
So, now that sleep is staying, this was more relevant when I started making this post ;X I'd like to suggest a theory that I believe infamous user 1vI has touched on before:
Now, I know you guys must be thinking I'm being even crazier than usual, but a discussion brought up once in the room really opened my eyes. Someone had asked for some mons who counter Metagross 100%, and by the end of it, we were only able to name a few. Pretty much anything else used to check it falls below 80% certainty of defeating one of the possible viable sets.
And with that said, let's consider anything and everything Metagross-Mega can run to be considered viable:
Moves:
Bullet Punch, Meteor Mash, Iron Head, Zen Headbutt, Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Bulldoze, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch/Magnet Rise, Substitute, and Rock Slide/Tomb.
Spreads:
The standard Teambuilder-generated spreads:
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
The optimized spread to withstand Gyarados-Mega's +1 Crunch, Tapu Koko's Gigavolt Havoc, and more, made by the 1v1 community:
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 204 SpD / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
Now let's look at how popular this thing is among the ladder, as opposed to other current top mons of the tier:
1500 stats (The default minimum):
Metagross-Mega - #6 in 1v1 | Usage: 6.95323% | Raw count: 21,554 | Weight: 0.877542535311
Kyurem-Black - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 12.28874% | Raw count: 38,196 | Weight: 0.873968911833
Gyarados-Mega - #3 in 1v1 | Usage: 8.36564% | Raw count: 27,397 | Weight: 0.829072559365
Charizard-Mega-X - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 10.17236% | Raw count: 37,235 | Weight: 0.739424335852
Tapu Koko - #4 in 1v1 | Usage: 7.89194% | Raw count: 26,262 | Weight: 0.815427644145 1630 stats:
Metagross-Mega - #3 in 1v1 | Usage: 12.19678% | Raw count: 21,554 | Weight: 0.330944202221
Kyurem-Black - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 15.63889% | Raw count: 38,196 | Weight: 0.238744849125
Gyarados-Mega - #4 in 1v1 | Usage: 10.17276% | Raw count: 27,397 | Weight: 0.216639858603
Charizard-Mega-X - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 14.17108% | Raw count: 37,235 | Weight: 0.220912962919
Tapu Koko - #5 in 1v1 | Usage: 9.78115% | Raw count: 26,262 | Weight: 0.216956692188
1760 stats:
Metagross-Mega - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 18.37684% | Raw count: 21,554 | Weight: 0.0157987271387
Kyurem-Black - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 18.14777% | Raw count: 38,196 | Weight: 0.00877794362959
Gyarados-Mega - #3 in 1v1 | Usage: 14.19528% | Raw count: 27,397 | Weight: 0.00957822464482
Charizard-Mega-X - #6 in 1v1 | Usage: 12.37353% | Raw count: 37,235 | Weight: 0.00611157885423
Tapu Koko - #9 in 1v1 | Usage: 8.49073% | Raw count: 26,262 | Weight: 0.00596718576573
Now that we have an idea of what to expect from the mon itself, as well as how much you should expect to see it, let's look at how often it wins matchups with each set, considering all the moves it could use.
Key:
MAW = Metagross Always Wins - The chances of Metagross winning are about 85% or higher
MUW = Metagross Usually Wins - The chances of Metagross winning are about 60% - 85%
~50/50 = Uncertain for either side - The chances of Metagross winning are about 40% - 60%
MCW = Metagross Can Win - The chances of Metagross winning are about 15% - 40%
MAL = Metagross Always Loses - The chances of Metagross winning are less than 15%
Overall, Metagross will typically win this matchup with the right moveset, the odds of success only being boosted higher by how rarely experienced people use max Atk/Spe Gyarados.
Overall, Metagross pretty consistently counters just about anything Kyurem-Black can throw at it, with only a few sets even having a chance given that they're able to either safely take a hit + Bullet AND outspeed for the 2HKO, or getting the lucky roll against a 0 bulk Metagross with Weakness Policy-boosted Earth Power
A RANK
Charizard-Mega-X
Standard
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Optimized Standard
Adamant -MAL
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Bulky
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Not exactly Metagross' most ideal matchup, most matchups being won typically by Charizard Mega Evolving and Dancing up for the guaranteed OHKO, though Jolly Metagross has a chance by spamming Substitute for the Flare Blitz Recoil before finishing it off with Earthquake, the only risk being that the Charizard might use its own Substitute to automatically win, if you get predicted.
Special
Adamant - ~50/50 (Timid/Naive) / MAL (Modest/Rash)
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
Optimized Special
Adamant - ~50/50 (Timid/Naive) / MAL (Modest/Rash)
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
The generic spreads don't really fare too well against Koko, particularly the Specially offensive kind, but the custom spread is built to withstand anything and everything Koko can throw at it, besides critical hits.
Tapu Lele
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
[Insert Steel STAB here].
Aggron-Mega
Adamant -MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Aggron bulks everything Metagross can throw at it, not even needing Defense EVs to avoid being 2HKO'd by Hammer Arm. It'd take some serious flinching with Iron Head to make this matchup anywhere near favorable.
Charizard-Mega-Y
Standard
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Bulky
Adamant - MAW (If slow enough) / MAL (If fast enough)
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MCW (Very EV dependent)
This entire matchup pretty much depends completely on the EV spread of Charizard-Y, as well as the presence of Rock Slide in Metagross' moveset.
Dragonite
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
There are way too many iterations of Dragonite to go into detail for all of them, but more often than not, Metagross wins simply by hitting Dragonite twice with STABs, or even Ice Punch.
Special Mega
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Pretty mixed in matchups, Jolly is able to force a 50/50 with sub/zen vs protect/fire, while the other two have decent chances at standing up to a physical mega, but practically no chance against anything faster and special/z-move.
Garchomp
Groundium
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Band
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Other
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
All matchups made assuming Metagross has Ice Punch.
Genesect
Scarf
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Specs
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Flamethrower = die. Even Bug Buzz can do the trick.
Golem
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Magnet Rise is a killer. Get rid of it, however, and those W's become L's.
This matchup is pretty geared towards moveset. Metagross' assumed moveset here is Thunder Punch + Substitute.
Chansey
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Since Charm/Counter pretty much instantly wins, Metagross' only hope here is to get the nasty flinch hax.
Carracosta
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
+2 Earthquake only takes out Jolly on a high roll, but still just gets bopped by Hammer Arm and Bullet anyways.
Crustle
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
All matchups won by using Bullet Punch pre-mega and then finishing them off with either another Bullet if they Shell Smashed, or any other attack if they used Earthquake or Counter.
Ferrothorn
Standard Leech Seed
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Curse
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Iron Defense
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Matchups done without the consideration of Substitute, which probably still wouldn't change the result vs Curse and Iron Defense, only chance vs Standard set is getting high rolls with Max Attack Hammer Arm.
You might not even need steel type moves for this one.
Heatran
Bulky
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Speedy
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MUW
Matchups vs Bulky Heatran are assuming you get the Iron Head flinch and finish with Hammer/EQ, while matchups vs Speedy are instant loss for Adamant, and a decent chance of the custom spread being able to take a Timid Overheat.
Jirachi
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Only hope is the 20% Fire Punch burn.
Jumpluff
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - ~50/50
Impish - MAL
Jolly speed ties while Adamant has decent chances of getting the Bullet KO if played right.
Kartana
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - ~50/50
Banded Night Slash can threaten the custom spread, but otherwise, Metagross has this.
Sableye-Mega
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Metagross has about as much chance of winning as Sableye has of missing Will-o-Wisp.
Sawk
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Use Bullet Punch pre-mega to avoid the bop from Counter and you can't really lose.
Physically defense Leech Seed is hard to break, but Specs Fire Blast has difficulty with bulky Metagross.
Diancie
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Steel moves = no chance.
Durant
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
Adamant hopes for misses to 2HKO the hustler, Jolly just plain 2HKOs with EQ then Hammer Arm while not getting OHKO'd, and Durant needs Crunch to 2hko the custom spread, while the custom spread 3HKO's with Hammer Arm and Bullet.
Adamant has a solid shot of 2HKOing with Bullet, factoring that in with the 40% miss chance and the 33% chance to wake up first turn makes things favorable for Metagross.
Latios
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
Only Specs Shadow Ball has a chance vs the custom spread, but it still isn't very likely.
Assuming GeneMew runs Overheat and ~0 Speed EVS (Most frequent in usage), Metagross wins most of the time by just spamming Iron Head, not even needing the hax very much if at all. Bulky Mew, on the other hand, can only be threatened by Substitute and hax, and even then, the odds aren't really in Metagross' favor.
Pheromosa
Physical
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Special
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
Z-Focus Blast is all that Phero has going for it in this matchup.
Terrakion
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Any STAB is just an automatic win
Umbreon
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
Adamant at least has a chance with Hammer Arm and hoping for a flinch/crit with Iron Head to finish with another Hammer after being Z-Charmed, but that's as good as it gets. (using the top usage Umbreon spread)
Whimsicott
Babiri Berry
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Jolly wins over Babiri by outspeeding AND using Bullet, Cotton Guard is forced to a 50/50 if Metagross has Substitute, and all Whimsicott can be bulked to withstand an attack from the custom spread.
C RANK
Archeops
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Only chance this thing has at all is speed tying Jolly and KOing with a Z-move, but even then Metagross can just Bullet Punch and win.
The best chance it has is with weakness policy against Jolly, but even that can end up falling to an Iron Head flinch, everything else just ends up taking the gamble that they don't get screwed over by crit/flinches.
Hoopa-Unbound
Scarf
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MUW
Specs
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Other
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Scarf Dark Pulse can't possibly OHKO the bulky spreads, and it just ends up being picked off, while Bulky Specs takes the risk of being flinched or crit.
Keldeo
Speedy
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
Bulky
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MAW
Most of these matchups are either dependent upon Scald landing a burn, or surviving Zen Headbutt if you're bulky.
Landorus-Incarnate
Life Orb
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MCW
Scarf
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MUW
Ice Punch is required on the custom spread, but the other two can Meteor/Iron and Bullet.
Marowak-Alola
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MAL
Flare Blitz hurts too much, and can just use Shadow Bone afterwards if you try to Sub spam for the recoil. You can go for the Iron Head flinch to finish it with EQ, but that's about as good a chance as it gets.
Fake Out + HJK can take out Jolly, but Meteor Mash can also OHKO on a solid roll, if no bulk investment.
Victini
Speedy
Adamant - MCW (Scarf) / MAL (Band)
Jolly - MAL (Scarf) / MCW (Band)
Impish - MAW (Scarf) / MAL (Band)
Bulky Band
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Metagross actually has a surprisingly decent chance of surviving Scarfed V-Create, but in the case of Band or other non-Scarf sets, it's pretty much dependent upon Metagross getting a lucky Rock Slide flinch and snagging the 2HKO.
Dusclops
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Metagross only has a chance here because it can use Substitute.
Hitmonlee
Normal Gem
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Liechi
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
You'd have to either try pretty darn hard or not have Bullet Punch in order to lose this matchup.
Infernape
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAL
Any kind of boosted fire move makes this an automatic loss for anything slower.
Lucario-Mega
Physical
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
Special
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Lucario doesn't really have much of a chance here beyond hoping for Hammer Arm misses and Dark Pulse flinches.
Regular Pidgeot kinda just loses, with their only chance of winning being a Heat Wave crit/burn, which is less than 1% more likely than Will-o-Wisp missing. The best chance it has vs the famed Bulky Birb, however, is by relying on Rock Tomb without mega evolving and hoping they don't go for Heat Wave when you do so.
Quagsire
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MAL
Kentari can vouch for probability management playing a big role in this matchup.
Relicanth
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Substitute shenanigans kinda skew this matchup, so we'll just pretend it doesn't exist for this one. With that said, Relicanth needs a 3 turn sleep in order to win using Earthquake.
Thundurus-Therian
Specs
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Z-move
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Specs Dark Pulse hax makes things uncertain for any Metagross slower, while also OHKO-ing Jolly, usually. Bulky Z move, on the other hand, is a bit more challenging for Metagross to beat, so it ends up relying on haxing Thundy for the win.
Without assuming you have Sub, you're basically just hoping for Iron Head flinches.
Azumarill
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - MUW
Adamant Metagross 2HKOs pretty easily, while Z-Aqua Tail can be pretty threatening to the other two if they don't get good RNG/rolls.
Clefable
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MAW
S/O to the babiri Counter Clefable I used last gen-
Latias
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MAL
Meteor Mash boosts pre-mega and crits are pretty much all you have going for you in this matchup. Reflect Type always wins, I guess, but Charm is used more/generally better by far.
Necrozma
Specs
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MUW
Impish - ~50/50
Z-move
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Adamant 2HKOs with Iron Head, Jolly does the same with Meteor Mash, while Impish relies on Iron Head haxing. Iron Defense Necrozma causes difficulties that can only be solved via haxing.
Adamant has a decent chance of 2HKOing max bulk with Hammer Arm, the miss chances bring that down to about a 50/50, though. The other sets just rely on good old-fashioned skill hax.
Salazzle
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAW
Fake Out and Overheat are just short of 2HKOing the custom spread. Z-Fire just kinda wrecks them all, however.
Scizor-Mega
Adamant - MAL
Jolly - MAL
Impish - MAL
This guy is the OU dedicated Metagross Counter for good reason.
Slaking
Adamant - MAW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MUW (Depends on whether you outspeed or not) / MAW (Hammer Arm)
Banded Earthquake OHKOs Jolly pretty easily, but Flinches put the odds quite a bit less in Slaking's favor.
Smeargle
Adamant - MCW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MCW
Everyone loves praying for that 1/3 chance at waking up, right?
Stunfisk
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MCW
Impish - MCW
Ignoring the existence of Sub and Magnet Rise, it's just another round of praying for the 1/3 wakeup for Jolly and Impish, while Adamant pretty much safely 2HKOs with Iron Head and EQ, possibly auto-winning with a Flinch.
Vivillon
Adamant - MUW
Jolly - MAW
Impish - MUW
It takes a lot of hope for Vivillon to win this matchup.
So, looking at this list we have here, we can conclude that there are only ten sets that will about automatically win without needing to worry about avoiding hax or knowing which set Metagross is:
Bulky Charizard-X
Mega Aggron
Mega Slowbro
Genesect
Ferrothorn
Sableye
Special Victini
Dusclops
Mega Camerupt
Mega Scizor
All this evidence is to say that Metagross is broken in 1v1 because it has high enough usage to be overcentralizing, low opportunity cost involved in switching between its plethora of move and spread options, and a limited number of more or less guaranteed counters.
Posting a bit sooner than I'd like because computer is threatening me with a restart ;-;
The Kyurem-Black suspect test is over. With a 50% pro-ban percentage, Kyurem-Black didn't reach a 60% ban supermajority thus it will NOT be banned. Thank you everyone for participating and voting.
It's a gimmick, but worth much lolz. So, what it does is:
Enter a Mon with Intimidate ability say, Gyarados, or Landorus-Therian. It'll Intimidate and so, Defiant will come into play raising it to +1, and then Adrenaline Orb will have its effect, raising speed by 1 stage, so you have effectively Dragon Danced before the game's start! And then, Bulk Up vs both Gyarados and Landorus-Therian; if Gyarados/GyaradosM, Turn1 Bulk Up into Turn2 Giga Impact, and if Landorus-T, Turn1 Bulk Up & watch out for Rock Tomb, which will further increase your attack because of Defiant, and so your attack would be @ +3 and then Brave Bird, coz many Landorus would go for substitute turn1!! Not very effective vs Mawile, but otherwise it's much lolz
This bird does not do much to Mega Mawile, and so, let's go to the second Pokemon of the day!
Meet Bisharp:
Bisharp @ Steelium Z
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 220 HP / 84 Atk / 204 Def
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Low Kick
- Iron Head
- Night Slash/Sucker Punch
This Defiant Pokemon can now kill Mega Mawile because it has a neutral damaging Z-Iron Head, which can also double in killing Kyurem-B, even without the off-chance of SpDef drop due to Earth Power, which could result in Defiant activation.
I have a new idea, called "top 10 1v1 fails." I need thoughts on what to rank. Here's some ideas:
1v1 stealth rock, arbitrary coverage z move, assault vest + bulk up, choice band substitute/fake out, fire punch ZardX, forgetting to set your Aron to Lv1, giving Mega Mawile special moves, using Unfezant, using Scarf wailord, "You have been disconnected -- probably because the server has been restarted," and using smogon EV allocations (some exceptions though).
Any more ideas? This definitely isn't all of them.
Rules: Basically the rules are the same as 1v1 rules, but with the difference of using PU Pokémon rather than the Pokémon that are normally used in 1v1. But, there are some exceptions, with the exceptions being Pokémon that are in the PU tier and would normally be used, are banned since their usage in the 1v1 metagame is high. For example, Golem is a PU Pokémon, but its high usage in the 1v1 metagame prevents it from participating in this format. Since PU is basically a tier for Pokémon not being allowed in this meta, the idea is that Pokémon that have high usage in the 1v1 metagame should not be used since they have a large advantage against other PU Pokémon.The banlist is basically made of PU Pokémon that have usage higher than 100.
Also by default, all NFE and LC Pokemon are allowed except: Aron
And to make things easier..... Usable Pokemon (by Type): 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
(all forms except normal)
(all formes)
And all NFE and LC Pokemon except:
New update of the list is comming next week but most importantly Speed Tiers are out!!! Shoutout to motogp, for their usefull input on the making of the Speed Tiers<3.
Also a VR is about to come out by motogp and Whammerist, so like the Boy Scouts, be prepared!
Regice @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Def / 188 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Blizzard
- Toxic
- Hail
This just has really high stats for PU. It will get even better when Archeops and Rampardos get banned. Focus Blast to hit Rock types, which you’re weak to, and the plethora of Normal types in PU. Blizzard because why not. Toxic to beat stall with out Rest. Hail to make Blizzard 100% accurate and get surprisingly necessary extra damage in. Changing the weather isn’t bad at all. Ice is a really good typing because all the good steel types are gone, while there are lots of Flying and Grass types. It’s just way bulkier than most of the other Pokémon, with fine Special Attack.
Again, really high base stats for the tier. This will just tank hits and ko a weaker Pokémon that “should’ve” ko’d it. I’m not really sure what Hidden Power type to use, or what 4th move to use. It basically only learns Water-type attacks and Ice Beam.
A fantastic meme that happens to be PU. Puts immense pressure on your opponent to pick the Pokémon on their team that doesn’t lose to Shedinja. This allows you to predict very easily. False Swipe was just something I thought of for pp stalling, say against Rest or something. Your item probably doesn’t matter at all.
If you feel the need to use this team on the regular ladder instead of in PU tournaments in the 1v1 room, change Regice to Icium and use Hidden Power Electric on Wishiwashi.
Regice @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Def / 188 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Blizzard
- Toxic
- Hail
This just has really high stats for PU. It will get even better when Archeops and Rampardos get banned. Focus Blast to hit Rock types, which you’re weak to, and the plethora of Normal types in PU. Blizzard because why not. Toxic to beat stall with out Rest. Hail to make Blizzard 100% accurate and get surprisingly necessary extra damage in. Changing the weather isn’t bad at all. Ice is a really good typing because all the good steel types are gone, while there are lots of Flying and Grass types. It’s just way bulkier than most of the other Pokémon, with fine Special Attack.
Again, really high base stats for the tier. This will just tank hits and ko a weaker Pokémon that “should’ve” ko’d it. I’m not really sure what Hidden Power type to use, or what 4th move to use. It basically only learns Water-type attacks and Ice Beam.
A fantastic meme that happens to be PU. Puts immense pressure on your opponent to pick the Pokémon on their team that doesn’t lose to Shedinja. This allows you to predict very easily. False Swipe was just something I thought of for pp stalling, say against Rest or something. Your item probably doesn’t matter at all.
If you feel the need to use this team on the regular ladder instead of in PU tournaments in the 1v1 room, change Regice to Icium and use Hidden Power Electric on Wishiwashi.
So after a few years (2 maybe?), I've decided to return to showdown and 1v1 with fresh everything. Not like I could go back to my old account anyways, I forgot all the things. I thought I could offer some movesets I cooked up, fresh from the grill and served with a side of fries.
Mega Heracross
Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- Close Combat
- Pin Missile
This thing's quite useful to have laying around. It counters FEAR[i like to have at least one pokemon who counters that on my teams] & Sturdy, Substitute, Mimiku, is pretty tanky and outputs good damage. The only drawback? Some pretty common mons counter it.
Offensive Avalugg
Avalugg @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Avalanche
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Double-Edge
Simple really. Survive and output damage with avalanche or another move.
For the longest time, this thing was my bread and butter. While I ended up abandoning use of this Pokemon eventually, I'd say it still stands up as a decent choice. Modest for that extra damage, though timid might be your thing.
Just a very gimmicky gengar that uses hex. Because those are always fun.
A Very Fast Zydogo
Zygarde-10% @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
I tested this thing a bit on my test ALT. I would say it works pretty well, as it outspeeds most mons and does tons of damage. I guess if you wanted to you could switch out the choice band for a Z gem?
So after a few years (2 maybe?), I've decided to return to showdown and 1v1 with fresh everything. Not like I could go back to my old account anyways, I forgot all the things. I thought I could offer some movesets I cooked up, fresh from the grill and served with a side of fries.
Mega Heracross
Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- Close Combat
- Pin Missile
This thing's quite useful to have laying around. It counters FEAR[i like to have at least one pokemon who counters that on my teams] & Sturdy, Substitute, Mimiku, is pretty tanky and outputs good damage. The only drawback? Some pretty common mons counter it.
Offensive Avalugg
Avalugg @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Avalanche
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Double-Edge
Simple really. Survive and output damage with avalanche or another move.
For the longest time, this thing was my bread and butter. While I ended up abandoning use of this Pokemon eventually, I'd say it still stands up as a decent choice. Modest for that extra damage, though timid might be your thing.
Just a very gimmicky gengar that uses hex. Because those are always fun.
A Very Fast Zydogo
Zygarde-10% @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
I tested this thing a bit on my test ALT. I would say it works pretty well, as it outspeeds most mons and does tons of damage. I guess if you wanted to you could switch out the choice band for a Z gem?
If your story is to be believed, then welcome back! It seems like you've developed a bit of rust in that 2 year interval. Lemme address some errors here...
- What does Double-Edge on Avalugg hit? Yes, it's movepool isn't the best, but Double-Edge? You shouldn't even be running Choice Band: Z-crystal/Weakness Policy is much better.
- Zygarde-10% is not very good in 1v1, being mostly usurped by Zygarde-50%, which is already rather average in this tier, sitting in the C ranks. Also, running Earthquake over Thousand Arrows is a terrible mistake, and at that point, you're better off running Landorus-Therian, Donphan or Golem.
- Dark Pulse and Shadow Ball is redundant on Deoxys-Speed. I would recommend replacing one of these two options with Energy Ball, which can hit Swampert.
- Mega Heracross does not counter Mimikyu, as it loses to the Fairium Curse set.
- Psychic is totally useless on Gengar. Thunderbolt with Hypnosis allows you the possibility of defeating Mega Gyarados. Get rid of Will-O-Wisp and Toxic, as they aid in no match-ups whatsoever.
I appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to get back into the swing of things after 2 years of inactivity, but it's clear that you need to brush up on your set-building skills, as well as the SM meta in general. I would recommend joining our Discord and/or the 1v1 chat room on Showdown and conversing with our community before coming back here.
Hello this is going to be a short and sweet post but with USUM coming around the corner I would like to draw our threat list before diving right into the new games. These Pokemon should be watched in USUM and discussed before and after the metagame:
Zygarde-Complete as Unban: The leadership team voted to suspect that but we still didn't find the time to do so, it will happen soon enough and is probably a high priority if USUM changes nothing for it.
Mega Metagross as Ban: Glyx started a well thought post and I guess this Pokemon is worth discussion and being on our watchlist.
Sleep/Togekiss/Jirachi: As a fundamental principle we are looking to eliminate as much hax from our metagame but do these moves/Pokemon really contribute that negatively to the metagame?
so, i'm gonna briefly talk about the problem with an anti-megagross ban that the pro-ban users seem to gloss over; its versatility. realistically, megagross will have mash / ihead and bp almost all the time. they're really necessary moves, and this is supported by 1630 usage stats. so, what about the other two? yes, two. that's the problem; it only gets 2 coverage moves. no, it turns out that you can't run zen headbutt, rock slide, sub, tpunch, ice punch, earthquake, hammer arm, magnet rise, etc all on the same set. you also only get 1 ev spread, believe it or not. yes, this mon is versatile. however, with only 2 coverage slots you're almost always gonna get walled by a ton of pokemon. there aren't too many hard counters, yes, but it's not really as versatile as people make it out to be. even in the case that it was extremely versatile and had almost no counters, look at kyurem. it has the item slot to allow it to run scarf, icium, specs, band and other lure sets to take advantage of its versatility. if that sounds unbeatable, it didn't even get banned. don't rly want to talk about kyub though because that's not what this post is about!
