Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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Not quite sure why you mention Koko, because Donphan is IMMUNE to Koko's main attack.
Also, the two Pokémon that are arguably the best in 1v1 (Mega Gyarados and Kyurem-Black) beat it easily. Let's not forget that it loses to literally any Grass type with more bulk than Kartana.
In fact, out of the top 6 Pokémon in 1v1, only ONE is beaten by Donphan consistently (unless no Sub on ZardY). Donphan is not broken, merely good, and is a part of many good teams. If you have trouble with Sturdy, use either Gyarados, KyuB, or Mega Charizard X with Will-O-Wisp.
EDIT: not to mention beating half the meta is nothing in the KyuB age...
Yeah, i guess... Kyub is getting suspect tested now so thats a thing, and i was prob just at that point, really pissed off because i kept losing to donphan, and it was because they tended to have something to counter mega gyara, and the only thing i had to counter it was mega gyara, so...
 

Tol

Retirement house
Yeah, i guess... Kyub is getting suspect tested now so thats a thing, and i was prob just at that point, really pissed off because i kept losing to donphan, and it was because they tended to have something to counter mega gyara, and the only thing i had to counter it was mega gyara, so...
well kids this is why you dont make smogon posts while you're angry

Also, KyuB is gonna get sustested next time it comes around, but not currently.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Are your anuses prepared for the dankest lure set of all time? Introducing...

Greninja-AttackAnimation-XY-2.gif

Greninja @ Choice Band
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Low Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Punch/Night Slash/Waterfall

This originally started out as a joke I made in passing. Shortly afterword, I thought to myself "Y'know what, fuck it, let's do it". So I made a team centered around this gem and laddered for a bit. The results shocked me, in a good way, that is.

Choice Band Greninja can lure AND KO...

Primarina
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-622111592

Tapu Fini
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-622372639

Snorlax
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-622468499

And Mega Charizard X
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-622522030

Other Pokemon you could potentially snipe with this set that were not shown:

Non-Scarf Lele
Spdef/AV Bulu
Bulkier Mega Gyarados sets that you can still outspeed after DDance
Mega Tyranitar
Umbreon

So if you wanna try out a brand new set that is guaranteed to shock and shake opponents, Choice Band Greninja is the Pokemon for you.
 
Char X is a roll:
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Greninja Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 270-320 (90.9 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

I'm not saying that full physically dedicated Greninja isn't bad, but it is also a little weak and lacks that umph that specs or Life Orb really likes. Most of the mons mentioned will lose to Life Orb Greninja anyways, bar Fini, which needs some attack investment. Also, Gyarados-Mega rarely Mega Evolves against Greninja because of Grass Knot. Fast one will then kill Greninja and slow one won't be 2HKO'd by Rock Slide. I guess you're basically baiting Snorlax and Kyurem-Black.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Are your anuses prepared for the dankest lure set of all time? Introducing...

View attachment 87256
Greninja @ Choice Band
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Low Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Punch/Night Slash/Waterfall

This originally started out as a joke I made in passing. Shortly afterword, I thought to myself "Y'know what, fuck it, let's do it". So I made a team centered around this gem and laddered for a bit. The results shocked me, in a good way, that is.

Choice Band Greninja can lure AND KO...

Primarina
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-622111592

Tapu Fini
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-622372639

Snorlax
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-622468499

And Mega Charizard X
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-622522030

Other Pokemon you could potentially snipe with this set that were not shown:

Non-Scarf Lele
Spdef/AV Bulu
Bulkier Mega Gyarados sets that you can still outspeed after DDance
Mega Tyranitar
Umbreon

So if you wanna try out a brand new set that is guaranteed to shock and shake opponents, Choice Band Greninja is the Pokemon for you.
One time in discord chat, I tried out Rock Slide Greninja as a meme and asked UC about his opinions. He said "it only beats frail zards with luck and loses to everything else with fraility" and "There are much better lures of such threats than physical Greninja". Frankly speaking, it is very terrible against the metagame except the exclusive 'mons it defeats. Primarina can already 2HKOed Specs + Grass Knot while non Specs variants can't even OHKO back with Moonblast (Ice Beam still requires prediction), same goes to Tapu Fini, Snorlax is REALLY easily dealt by using anything with Substitute or that is Ghost-type, and as previous post mentions, Zard x has less than 50% chance to be taken out, and most of them nowadays invest in bulk in order to take on threats, most notably in order to go well against Mega Gyarados, Mega Metagross, and others. Keep in mind, Choice Band Rock Slide has less damage output than Choice Specs Hydro Cannon on Mega Charizard X.

Another reason I would say this set is unfortunately not viable is because this Greninja misses out on stuff it regularly beats, namely:
* Mega Slowbro, which you cannot even hurt without carrying Night Slash which has almost no coverage.
* Mega Swampert by not carrying Grass Knot.
* Mega Metagross by not carrying Dark Pulse (Metagross usually has way more bulk than 0 HP and 0 SpDef):

Before:
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 306-362 (101.6 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
After:
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Greninja Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 194-230 (64.4 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

* Mega Ampharos by not carrying Ice Beam:

Before:
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos-Mega: 344-408 (89.5 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
After:
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Greninja Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ampharos-Mega: 284-336 (73.9 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

* You don't necessarily lose to Mega Pinsir but you are just turning a guaranteed OHKO into a roll which isn't very wise, and it runs more than just 0 HP to take on Mega Gyarados and Mega Mawile:

Before:
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hydro Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 340-402 (125.4 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 408-482 (150.5 - 177.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
After:
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Greninja Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir-Mega: 254-300 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Hey, I like anti-meta stuff too, and I get it. Using unique sets in 1v1 is fun. But in my book, the definition of being a good 'lure' or 'specific check' is beating additional threats / threats-you-originally-lose-to by adjusting the moveset, while being able to win against 'mons that you already win against. Also I believe 1v1 isn't all about c'teaming god squad or stuff like Yawn users in the ladder, it is about dealing with as much threat as possible, which your Choice Band Greninja kinda fails to do by significantly changing the moveset from the one that is already good enough.
 
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I rarely ever post on smogon since, well tbh I really don't know. Anyways...I'm just gonna talk and see where this goes. If you wanna waste time and read this most likely shit post go right ahead. Now into whatever it is I'm talking about.......

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hitmontop @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Counter
- Endeavor
- Fake Out
- Bullet Punch

Some of you may know I've been using Hitmontop as of late. With Hitmontop's base stats, (50/95/95/35/110/70) it's fine. Why did I choose to use this pokemon for about a week? I don't really know. It's like passion's love for durant, or DEG's love of eating mayo out of the jar. We don't question, just support and care. Hitmontop ability that I run is Intimidate, it help it live more Attack centred moves. As item, I'm running assault vest atm. When I was testing koko was the main problem. As for moveset I'm using fake out/bullet punch/counter/endeavor. Fake out breaks study and is good chip damage. Bullet punch is nice priority, I run it instead of mach punch due to psychic, fairy and ghost types being a thing. Counter helps beat pokemon such as Mega-Lopunny, Mega Blazikin and Kyurem-Black to name a few. And endeavor to beat Special Attackers like Porygon-Z, Magnezone, and Tapu Koko. My EVs and IVs are 252hp/252atk/4def Adamant. Substitute and set up moves will beat it though. Rating 4 Golden UOP's out of 8. It's fun to use, but has it's counters.



Archeops @ Rockium Z
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Fly
- Rock Tomb

Archeops is fun to use. Beats non-scarfed Kyurem-Black and both Charizards. Beats Mimikyu if I remember right. And yeah, just a fun hard hitting non-meta pokemon. 7 DEG My Little Pony Tshirts out of 11.





Starmie @ Psychium Z
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Gravity
- Thunder
- Blizzard
- Hydro Pump

Z-Gravity Raises your Special Attack by 1 stage and allows you to hit all moves. So Thunder, Blizzard, and Hydro Pump will always hit. Starmie is very squishy, other pokemon such as Meloetta who are bulkier can benift from this, although I've found more success with Starmie. 2 Kentari Kittens out of 4.

Z-Transform Mew is fun. Really funny when you transform into opponent's pokemon and even funnier when you transform and then z move.
Z-Confuse Ray Crobat is funny. Beats Mega-Gyaradose a lot. It confuses the target and raises your Special Attack, then just air slash for confusion/flinch.
And also been trying out metal burst Mega-Mawile which has it's perks.

Anyways that's what I have to say, and this entire time I thought I was searching for a battle I wasn't so lol. I have many wacky sets that work. Will I do more of this in the future, I don't know. Does DEG wear a red sock and a blue sock instead of just all red or all blue? Who knows. I expect to be on the front page of Reddit or something. Never used Reddit so there's that. Oh and if DEG was a pokemon irl he would be a Xatu.
 
Since the release of Sun/Moon sleep has been a big threat in the 1v1 metagame.Making your opponent unable to move from 1-3 turns gives you a huge advantage.Some people even suggested banning sleep inducing moves in order to solve that problem.However,I do not think sleep is a huge problem-oh wait this is not a post about sleep.
The subject of this post
UNBAN DARKRAI
In Generation 6,Darkrai was banned due to its ability, Bad Dreams.Its high speed stat allowed it to abuse it together with its signature move,Dark Void,which at the time had 80% accuracy in order to put its opponent to sleep,(sometimes)set up and KO the opposing pokemon with its attacking moves,usually Dark Pulse and Focus Blast.BUT in gen 7,Dark Void was nerfed to 50% accuracy,which made it almost never used on Darkrai.Darkrai mostly uses Nasty Plot and 3 attacks nowadays.So,if sleep gets banned,Darkrai must obviously be unbanned due to the fact that there are many mons that outclass it in the Sun/Moon metagame such as Mega Gengar and Greninja and even offensive Mimikyu due to Disguise.

On the other hand,if sleep does not get banned,Darkrai is still completely outclassed by Mega Gengar due to the latter having more Speed and Special Attack,thus being able to speed tie Tapu Koko AND having access to the move Hex which powers up due to the opponent being asleep and being able to 2HKO most of the metagame.Ofcourse,Gengar has to sacrifise an item slot but this is not a big problem.

Furthermore,Mega Gengar's typing allows it to resist Fairy and be immune to Normal and Fighting and even tank 1 special hit due to its stat distribution.So can Darkrai,and maybe a little bit better,but it still loses to the huge threat named Porygon-Z which has risen in usage thanks to its ability to beat Tapu Koko using a Choice Scarf

252+ SpA Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar-Mega: 206-244 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 404-476 (143.7 - 169.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Due to all of that,I suggest to our esteemed 1v1 leaders that use hustle togekiss to finally suspect test Darkrai and possibly unban it.

Sorry for small post.

SHOUTOUT LSF
 
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Everyone, READ EVERYTHING and nothing less.

For a while now I've been constantly hearing two sides of the Kyurem-Black ban argument, and neither of them have convinced me. Perhaps I'll share why.
By the end of this post, you'll know exactly what the real problem is, and you'll know exactly what we should do.
I'll do this by correcting mistakes on both sides of the issue, so don't hate me.

1. Kyurem-Black can beat anything.
This is probably the most common argument to prove that Kyurem-Black is broken. I say BS. Like every other mon, beating one mon often means losing to another. This means niche sets like Reflect Roost Payback Babiri Berry intended to beat Metagross-Meta poorly represent Kyurem-Black as a whole, and shouldn't define its viability nearly as much as its primary sets (Icium Z, Choice Scarf, etc.)

Mew
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-624833972
can
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-624840644
too!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-624842178

Now that I've made it clear that multiple niche sets don't prove the mon itself is broken, how about this next argument?

2. Kyurem-Black can beat too many mons with just one set though!
Maybe this is true, but its honestly impossible to convince everyone of that. It is entirely true that Kyurem-Black does beat a lot of mons with each of its sets, but every good 1v1 player has learned to bring a counter for each of these common sets, just like for Charizard-Mega-X and Charizard-Mega-Y.

Yes, Kyurem-Black's primary sets are really good. But what might make it broken? This brings me to the last correction.

3. Each individual common Kyurem-Black set has multiple viable common counters, so Kyurem-Black ISN'T broken, right?
Wrong. Remember we're not considering suspecting Icium Z, we're considering suspecting Kyurem-Black, and its overall influence on the metagame. Beating all Kyurem-Black sets with one mon is much, much harder than beating one set. This means just because you can beat specific Kyurem-Black individual sets on paper doesn't mean you can beat the mon on the team preview.

Now let me summarize once again:
Kyurem-Black's individual sets shouldn't be the focus of the potential suspect, but rather Kyurem-Black itself.

So what does this mean?
First of all, the primary issue with Kyurem-Black is its unpredictability (available due to its raw BST and other beneficial characteristics), which limits much of 1v1 itself in both team building and team preview. Very, very often, if you lack one of the few 100% counters (not individual set checks guys) your opponent gets a free win. Is a free win a big problem? No, but scale that up to the realistic Kyurem-Black usage, and it really impacts the average persons ladder session.

Does this mean Kyurem-Black is ban worthy?
Really, I don't know entirely, and no one truly does. In fact I dont care if its banned or it stays. However, your opinion still matters.

To conclude, let me leave you with this statement.

Growlithe can't learn Growl

DEG, Kyurem-Black should be suspected to determine if the players believe Kyurem-Black deserves a ban due to to a potential negative impact on the metagame as a whole, primarily during team preview and team building. When should it be suspected? Thats up to you.

Honestly, stop trying to prove to each other Kyurem-Black is or isn't broken and just agree we should suspect it and get everyone's opinion heard that way.

On another note, Darkrai, Salamence-Mega, and Zygarde-Complete should each be seriously considered for an unban.
 
Last edited:

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Everyone, READ EVERYTHING and nothing less.

For a while now I've been constantly hearing two sides of the Kyurem-Black ban argument, and neither of them have convinced me. Perhaps I'll share why.
By the end of this post, you'll know exactly what the real problem is, and you'll know exactly what we should do.
I'll do this by correcting mistakes on both sides of the issue, so don't hate me.

1. Kyurem-Black can beat anything.
This is probably the most common argument to prove that Kyurem-Black is broken. I say BS. Like every other mon, beating one mon often means losing to another. This means niche sets like Reflect Roost Payback Babiri Berry intended to beat Metagross-Meta poorly represent Kyurem-Black as a whole, and shouldn't define its viability nearly as much as its primary sets (Icium Z, Choice Scarf, etc.)

Mew
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-624833972
can
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-624840644
too!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-624842178

Now that I've made it clear that multiple niche sets don't prove the mon itself is broken, how about this next argument?

2. Kyurem-Black can beat too many mons with just one set though!
Maybe this is true, but its honestly impossible to convince everyone of that. It is entirely true that Kyurem-Black does beat a lot of mons with each of its sets, but every good 1v1 player has learned to bring a counter for each of these common sets, just like for Charizard-Mega-X and Charizard-Mega-Y.

Yes, Kyurem-Black's primary sets are really good. But what might make it broken? This brings me to the last correction.

3. Each individual common Kyurem-Black set has multiple viable common counters, so Kyurem-Black ISN'T broken, right?
Wrong. Remember we're not considering suspecting Icium Z, we're considering suspecting Kyurem-Black, and its overall influence on the metagame. Beating all Kyurem-Black sets with one mon is much, much harder than beating one set. This means just because you can beat specific Kyurem-Black individual sets on paper doesn't mean you can beat the mon on the team preview.

Now let me summarize once again:
Kyurem-Black's individual sets shouldn't be the focus of the potential suspect, but rather Kyurem-Black itself.

So what does this mean?
First of all, the primary issue with Kyurem-Black is its unpredictability (available due to its raw BST and other beneficial characteristics), which limits much of 1v1 itself in both team building and team preview. Very, very often, if you lack one of the few 100% counters (not individual set checks guys) your opponent gets a free win. Is a free win a big problem? No, but scale that up to the realistic Kyurem-Black usage, and it really impacts the average persons ladder session.

Does this mean Kyurem-Black is ban worthy?
Really, I don't know entirely, and no one truly does. In fact I dont care if its banned or it stays. However, your opinion still matters.

To conclude, let me leave you with this statement.

Growlithe can't learn Growl

DEG, Kyurem-Black should be suspected to determine if the players believe Kyurem-Black deserves a ban due to to a potential negative impact on the metagame as a whole, primarily during team preview and team building. When should it be suspected? Thats up to you.

Honestly, stop trying to prove to each other Kyurem-Black is or isn't broken and just agree we should suspect it and get everyone's opinion heard that way.

On another note, Darkrai, Salamence-Mega, and Zygarde-Complete should each be seriously considered for an unban.
You have basically mirrored my sentiments to a tee. I have wanted to say something similar to this, but didn't quite know how to word it without it being a one-liner. If the recent poll is an indicator, then Kyurem-Black has cleanly sliced the community in two camps: Those who want it gone and gone now, and those who think the other 50% are a bunch of crybabies who refuse to adapt and build around it. There is a neutral camp, but it is rather small, and more people are taking sides. Hey, that's kinda like American politics

And please, WHEN we suspect it (A suspect's almost certainly gonna happen, don't deny it), make sure Kyurem-Black is banned for the duration of the suspect. As many have stated, we don't need to see if it's op or not. It has been the #1/#2 mon in SM 1v1 for nearly a year now. Everybody knows what it does. Besides, if it's kept around, nobody's opinions are gonna change. But if we do ban it, it'll give everyone a chance to see what a Kyuremless meta would look like, and wether it would be healthier or not.

Also, quick opinions on your unban suggestions:

Darkrai: Yeah, nobody's arguing with you here. Darkrai really is just Mega Gengar that exchanges utility and raw power for Nasty Plot+ Z-move stuff.

Zygarde-Complete: I think we should wait to look at Zygarde-C after a verdict is reached on Kyurem-Black. If it's banned, Zygarde could lose a huge counter, making it much easier to support and build around.

Mega Salamence: A better Mega Pinsir with more bulk and coverage up the ass? lolno
 
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3. Each individual common Kyurem-Black set has multiple viable common counters, so Kyurem-Black ISN'T broken, right?
Wrong. Remember we're not considering suspecting Icium Z, we're considering suspecting Kyurem-Black, and its overall influence on the metagame. Beating all Kyurem-Black sets with one mon is much, much harder than beating one set. This means just because you can beat specific Kyurem-Black individual sets on paper doesn't mean you can beat the mon on the team preview.

Now let me summarize once again:
Kyurem-Black's individual sets shouldn't be the focus of the potential suspect, but rather Kyurem-Black itself.
I don't think I've heard anyone say that "my this is designed for scarf Kyurem-Black" or "my this is designed to beat this Kyurem-Black specifically," because it doesn't make any sense to think so narrow mindedly. For example, today, Glyx cited that her Gardevoir covers both the scarf Iron Head and the, blek, max Speed Kyurem-Black set, because her team was weak to Kyurem-Black. With the extra defense, it also covers the Donphan, Landorus-Therian, and Gyarados-Mega to keep them in check too. (in check because, oh better watch out for Z-Gunk Shot Donphan!) I don't think Specs Genesect covers every Kyurem-Black set, but it covers the ones that are relevant and don't "beat everything" just because Kyurem-Black gets a movepool(;this is referring to point 1). And in point 1, it says that many Anti-Kyurem-Black supporters believe that it can beat everything, while most are just niche. If we refer back to point 3, it says to not not consider niche; we should be considering the entirety of Kyurem-Black. The cycle loops itself, which is something I spotted a while ago, but could not make it clear due to foggy writing. So in the end, it is best to follow up on what has been agreed on so far; niche sets should not be considered "real Kyurem-Black."
To clarify, there may be an agreement that you can't beat Kyurem-Black with a single Pokemon, but niche sets are niche for a reason. As much as Kyurem-Black loves to try and counter-team certain threats, its threats don't have to appear. You can run a set to beat a certain team/mon, but then they switch. Congrats, call it 2v3. In the end, I'm only correcting what I saw was inaccurately on the side that I tend to favor. Clearly, the vanguard of the opposing side has agreed with you, so I can not comment any further.

If the recent poll is an indicator, then Kyurem-Black has cleanly sliced the community in two camps: Those who want it gone and gone now, and those who think the other 50% are a bunch of crybabies who refuse to adapt and build around it.
Thanks for generalizing a group of people. It really has gotten me super far just shit talking people all the time. The only time I've seen people screaming "a d a p t" is to Marshadow, which quite clearly wasn't a d a p t able.
Just to point out something. To say that you can not adapt to it because "you don't know what set it is going to run" is unnecessary over preparation. I don't see players like XStaticCold, SuperGezy, and "good" players running specific Kyurem-Black checks. And if Kyurem-Black is "overused," how have they near topped the ladder? And yes, SM 1v1 has been here for nearly a year, so just more reason for people to have known what Kyurem-Black does and how to beat it.

EDIT: there are many anecdotes for me to toss around if necessary, but they werent relevant to this post
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Thanks for generalizing a group of people. It really has gotten me super far just shit talking people all the time. The only time I've seen people screaming "a d a p t" is to Marshadow, which quite clearly wasn't a d a p t able.
Just to point out something. To say that you can not adapt to it because "you don't know what set it is going to run" is unnecessary over preparation. I don't see players like XStaticCold, SuperGezy, and "good" players running specific Kyurem-Black checks. And if Kyurem-Black is "overused," how have they near topped the ladder? And yes, SM 1v1 has been here for nearly a year, so just more reason for people to have known what Kyurem-Black does and how to beat it.
There were people were smack talking and have been telling some people to "adapt" into Kyurem-B? L.M.A.O. Scarf Kyu-B was already one of the threats in ORAS generation, and It has been nearly 9 months since SM was released. It was in top 10 usage stat for almost every single month, and has the most number of viable sets it runs in the entire metagame without having a Mega. How many more times should we repeat Kyurem-B singlehandedly beats more than half of the meta with Icium Z set while easily bypassing faster checks by simply equipping Choice Scarf? Who else than UOP and others should remind us 125 / 100 / 90 bulk allows Kyurem-B to invest in bulk to unbelievably live hits (stuff like Mawile's Iron Head and Zard X's Outrage) while retaining its offensive presence that comes from 170 / 120?

Outsides mocking tone, we have been dealing with this Ice Dragon for more than enough time. From the beginning of generation, Kyurem-B was very versatile thanks to its option to invest in bulk or power while keeping the other at considerably good level, access to Fusion Bolt to get past Water-types and Earth Power to get past Steel-types (most importantly Aggron and Magnezone), and newly introduced Z-move that lets it fire off a devastatingly powerful Subzero Slammer. Rather than becoming adaptable over a generation, Kyurem-B has turned into a worse pain. Aside from irrelevant / rare / c'teaming mechanics such as Electrium Z, Roseli Berry, Haban Berry, Psychinum Z and stuff, let's narrow down Kyurem-B's potential sets into Choice Scarf and Icium Z. Anything slower than Kyurem-B is 2HKOed with Subzero Slammer and an appropriate move that is followed by it, and as mentioned, if you resist Ice, then either Fusion Bolt or Earth Power is going to hit you supereffectively. Faster 'mons that can hit Kyurem-B supereffecively should think twice before sending it in team preview: zard x is OHKOed by Outrage and zard y needs 252 HP and some ev on defensive nature with Bold nature to live Fusion Bolt. Stuff like Lopunny just gets OHKOed by Outrage without having a chance to do sub + flail shenanigans or anything.

The most disappointing argument I heard about Kyurem-B staying is "It is OU mon and why treat it like a Uber mon". Well, Kyurem-B was in OU last gen because its movepool was absolutely awful in standards of 6v6, and even in this gen after Z-crystal release, Kyurem-B only gets a single chance to fire off Subzero Slammer. Things are different in 1v1. Unchangeable matchup is decided on team preview, and winning such 1v1 matchup is the objective of 1v1. Even in OU metagame the counterplay against Kyurem-B is just switching into a defensive mon or revenge killing with faster mon after sacing something, but you can't do that in 1v1. Once the matchup is chosen aganist Kyurem-B, what you send will be responsible to take on Kyurem-B who will straight charge into your mon equipping scarf or obliterate your mon with Teravolt Subzero Slammer.

I won't even make this a long post because most of us are more than just familiar with Kyurem-B's versatility / unpredictability / 'slappability' in current 1v1 Meta atm. I was waiting on Mega Diancie's effect in meta but apparently it doesn't do too much. It has been 9 months, and this is probably the time for it to finally go up on suspect chopping block.

Conclusion:
The reason it's broken is because you don't know what it's running.
Simply saying "you win if you know the set" is not enough to justify its presence.
Usually, a 'mon with very high stats or formidable power can still be balanced in 1v1 metagame when it has:

* Poor coverage despite its overwhelming power - Tapu Koko is completely shut down by Ground-types, Tapu Lele loses to almost every single Steel-types, Mega Gengar loses to almost anything that doesn't get supereffectively hit by its STAB, Mega Gyarados is shut down by most Grass-types and Fairy-types with sufficient bulk
* Exploitable weakness - Mega Heracross which is devastatingly powerful but has common weakness to Flying and Fire, Charizard cannot abuse its pre-mega evo typing because of Water and Electric weakness and Mega Charizard X struggles with any relevant Earthquake users
* Too many weakness - Mega Tyranitar, Mega Pinsir

But when a 'mon lacks all of these qualities, it is just, broken.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
I figured I would take a quick moment to address a little pet peeve of mine.

I have seen some people arguing for Kyurem-Black by saying that "Without it, Tapu Koko/Donphan will lose a big check" and "It'll lead to a slippery slope where we ban everything that's too good." Both of these are awful arguments.

1. If a op mon leaving means another mon will become op due to losing a big check/counter, that does not mean the op mon shouldn't be suspected/banned. Referring back to OU, there is a fear that, if Magearna is banned, Tapu Lele will get out of hand. Nonetheless, Magearna is one of the prime candidates for a suspect. If Lele becomes too much, they can just suspect that, too. A similar thing applies here. Even if banning Kyurem-Black makes Tapu Koko or Donphan OP (which I doubt it will), that does not mean that Kyurem-Black should be kept around. If those two mons do somehow become broken, just suspect them and move on.

2. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
 

DEG

The night belongs to you
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

I'm seeing a lot of arguments to unban Darkrai. Sadly for all of you wanting Darkrai in the 1v1 metagame, it won't happen soon. Now let me tell you why. No, Darkrai is not similar as Mega Gengar. No, Darkrai doesn't have to rely on Hypnosis to win. No, Darkrai isn't worse without Dark Void. These posts saying that Darkrai is similar to Mega Gengar are completely false.

First of all, Darkrai is not limited to an item which lets it run a lot of options, From Darkinium-Z to other coverage Z-move, Life Orb, Resist Berries, Wide Lens, Choice Specs and much more boosting its Viability making it a better special attacker than Mega Gengar or other special attackers. Combining these items to Darkrai's speed and wide movepool, it's a serious no-no from me. Darkrai can also turn all of this into its favor with Hypnosis+Bad Dreams which can weaken the opponent putting it in range for the next move. I do not understand how you guys are only seeing Darkrai from the perspective of Dark Void nerf not how much it will be a destructive force in the metagame.



For now, I do not see Kyurem-Black as a broken Pokemon but probably deserve a suspect in the near future. Don't get me wrong, I do believe that Kyurem-Black has a lot of potential sets, bar the stupid gimmicks set that people threw around first posts which are gone now, but none of them puts it over the edge. Kyurem-Black is in my opinion on the same level as Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Mega Gyarados, Mimikyu. I just do not see what makes it more of a threat than these Pokemon that have a way better timing and an easier time in the metagame. When I build teams most of mine auto-check Kyurem-Black with the first Pokemon or second, meanwhile I always have to count and edit my team to check the aforementioned threats other than Kyurem-Black. It's not a question of If Kyurem-Black gets banned these other Pokemon will run wild, it's a question of what makes Kyurem-Black more broken than them?
 
I figured I would take a quick moment to address a little pet peeve of mine.

I have seen some people arguing for Kyurem-Black by saying that "Without it, Tapu Koko/Donphan will lose a big check" and "It'll lead to a slippery slope where we ban everything that's too good." Both of these are awful arguments.

1. If a op mon leaving means another mon will become op due to losing a big check/counter, that does not mean the op mon shouldn't be suspected/banned. Referring back to OU, there is a fear that, if Magearna is banned, Tapu Lele will get out of hand. Nonetheless, Magearna is one of the prime candidates for a suspect. If Lele becomes too much, they can just suspect that, too. A similar thing applies here. Even if banning Kyurem-Black makes Tapu Koko or Donphan OP (which I doubt it will), that does not mean that Kyurem-Black should be kept around. If those two mons do somehow become broken, just suspect them and move on.

2. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
Slippery slopes refer to something that is clearly wrong, such as "we ban magearna what we'll ban all beast boost and bulky steel types now" or "we let them gays marry what we let animals marry us soon?" To say that Kyurem-Black leaving won't lead to a big mess of mons rising is it not unreasonable. And no one is saying that they'll be banned; if anything, you fell down the slippery slope yourself, making up some bogus argument from the opposing side that does not exist. Additionally, what I have heard are things like, Gyarados Mega does not require Outrage soon, or some mons do not need bulk as much. And as for you, in the talk of logical fallacies, you tend to lean towards ad hominem at times.
 
Last edited:

pazza

Banned deucer.

I'm seeing a lot of arguments to unban Darkrai. Sadly for all of you wanting Darkrai in the 1v1 metagame, it won't happen soon. Now let me tell you why. No, Darkrai is not similar as Mega Gengar. No, Darkrai doesn't have to rely on Hypnosis to win. No, Darkrai isn't worse without Dark Void. These posts saying that Darkrai is similar to Mega Gengar are completely false.

First of all, Darkrai is not limited to an item which lets it run a lot of options, From Darkinium-Z to other coverage Z-move, Life Orb, Resist Berries, Wide Lens, Choice Specs and much more boosting its Viability making it a better special attacker than Mega Gengar or other special attackers. Combining these items to Darkrai's speed and wide movepool, it's a serious no-no from me. Darkrai can also turn all of this into its favor with Hypnosis+Bad Dreams which can weaken the opponent putting it in range for the next move. I do not understand how you guys are only seeing Darkrai from the perspective of Dark Void nerf not how much it will be a destructive force in the metagame.
Thanks for shuting them up :]
 
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I'M BACK MOTHER FLIPPERS!
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Now, Owen Wilson or Alolan-Dugtrio is a great pokemon. This pokemon beats pokemon such as, Tapu Koko, Greninja and Kyurem-Black.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-625494973
Owen Wilsons (Dugtrio-Alola) (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Tangling Hair
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Endure
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Reversal

Well first off you may have a few questions. Like how does it beat Kyurem-Black, why do I have 4 IVs with 0, or why it looks so much like Owen Wilson!

The reasoning is Kyurem-Black has a lot of damage. And because of that most of it's attacks KO. There are some attacks that don't and leave Dugtrio with ~10%. So I end up making sure they are as low as possible, Because the move reversal is based off your % hp left. 200 base power is better than 100. What you do is endure get lowered to 1% and reversal. Some of you may ask well how do you beat scarf Kyurem-Black. So lets say Kyurem-Black used Outrage, which triggers, Tangling Hair, which lowers their speed by 1 stage. Now let's say they used a Special attack to avoid Tangling Hair. That's where Salac Berry comes into play. Since I was dropped below 25% I gain 1 speed stage. And since 252 flat speed is 319 it outspeeds +1 speed stage Kyurem-Black. Then reversal and win. Alolan-Dugtrio will lose if you run substitute or if you are verses a pokemon that can tank a reversal. Now for what I say to that is if you are able to flinch them with Iron head to a point where reversal KOs or if you get lucky and they use Fake Out.
 

Felucia

Robot Empress
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
I'M BACK MOTHER FLIPPERS!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, Owen Wilson or Alolan-Dugtrio is a great pokemon. This pokemon beats pokemon such as, Tapu Koko, Greninja and Kyurem-Black.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-625494973
Owen Wilsons (Dugtrio-Alola) (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Tangling Hair
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Endure
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Reversal

Well first off you may have a few questions. Like how does it beat Kyurem-Black, why do I have 4 IVs with 0, or why it looks so much like Owen Wilson!

The reasoning is Kyurem-Black has a lot of damage. And because of that most of it's attacks KO. There are some attacks that don't and leave Dugtrio with ~10%. So I end up making sure they are as low as possible, Because the move reversal is based off your % hp left. 200 base power is better than 100. What you do is endure get lowered to 1% and reversal. Some of you may ask well how do you beat scarf Kyurem-Black. So lets say Kyurem-Black used Outrage, which triggers, Tangling Hair, which lowers their speed by 1 stage. Now let's say they used a Special attack to avoid Tangling Hair. That's where Salac Berry comes into play. Since I was dropped below 25% I gain 1 speed stage. And since 252 flat speed is 319 it outspeeds +1 speed stage Kyurem-Black. Then reversal and win. Alolan-Dugtrio will lose if you run substitute or if you are verses a pokemon that can tank a reversal. Now for what I say to that is if you are able to flinch them with Iron head to a point where reversal KOs or if you get lucky and they use Fake Out.
You never answered why it looks so much like owen wilson

That being said, cool set! I'll try it out sometime in the future
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Kyurem-Black is in my opinion on the same level as Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Mega Gyarados, Mimikyu.
...
It's not a question of If Kyurem-Black gets banned these other Pokemon will run wild, it's a question of what makes Kyurem-Black more broken than them?
This is my personal opinion but I will gladly answer this:


Tapu Koko is currently known as a fast attacker of the team that is ready to handle any variants of Mega Gyarados, and is able to stop FEAR or stall shenanigans using Taunt / Substitute or both. It is able to get past bulky opponents using Charge, and these are main niche of Tapu Koko in current meta. These utilities unfortunately lock Tapu Koko into a very one-dimentional sets, and it is not like it can function as a diverse walbreaker thanks to its horrific coverage outsides Dazzling Gleam, Grass Knot, and maybe HP Ice. Even while carrying these coverage moves in exchange of forfeiting to get aforementioned utility moves, it is not like Tapu Koko is going to beat Dragons / Sturdy's / or Ground-types. This leaves Tapu Koko very predictable compared to Kyurem-B whose sets are clearly more multi-dimentional than Tapu Koko.
It has horrific bulk compared to the rest of the meta and except when maybe using Charge against weak opponent / weak coverage, it will most likely be OHKOed by most neutral Z-moves or any SE STAB moves, leaving it reliant on predictions to block certain moves with Substitute, and know when to Taunt / Charge.
Tapu Koko's offensive stats aren't great, it is Electirc Surge what fuels its power. Its coverages are significantly weaker:

252+ SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 280-332 (87.7 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 268-316 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 254-300 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And I am more than sure that Landorus-T runs more bulk than just 0 HP. Tapu Koko's STAB is devastatingly powerful and is able to run both physical and special Electrium Z sets, but that's about it. Electric-immune 'mons beat this guy without a question, and those who live Gigavolt Havoc is most likely able to OHKO Tapu Koko in return, and if Tapu Koko is running bulk to compensate this situation, that means it is compromising its power at the same time.

The most-reliable checks:

,
,
,
,
,
,
and others...​




This is another guardian deity that has terrain boost. This time, it is Psychic Terrain that leaves Tapu Lele powerful, and unlike Tapu Koko, it has Fairy-typing as well which lets it have much better matchup with Dark-types. It also has access to utility move such as Taunt to shut down passive threats, Calm Mind to deal with Tapu Fini / specially bulky foes, and can make much better usage of Z-Reflect to get past Mega Gyarados, Golem, and Donphan. These aren't to be considered as the only strength of Tapu Lele, however; Tapu Lele has significantly better offensive stat (130 Sp.Atk) that allows it to use Shattered Psyche to outright OHKO anything that is not bulky enough, limiting its checks even narrower. However, Tapu Lele has the same issue with Tapu Koko; it is predictable. Tapu Lele usually can't afford to run more attack moves other than Psychic / Psyshock and Moonblast unless it is running choice item, because it will have harder time against Sturdy users and stalling opponents. In addition, Tapu Lele does not profit too much from running extra coverage outsides its dual STAB moves because it is not like it will beat Celesteela even if it has Thunderbolt or Magnezone with Focus Blast. Therefore, Tapu Lele's offensive trait in 1v1 is quite predictable, and Steel-types are known to easily keep it in check. Because of its mediocre speed tier, Tapu Lele has options to invest some EV's on its bulk but it usually fails to change matchup against opponents it already loses to:

252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 322-381 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
112 Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele through Reflect: 160-189 (48.3 - 57%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 295-348 (89.1 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Tapu Lele has much better dual STAB than Tapu Koko and has good utility in Psychic Surge that blocks Fake Out (which would otherwise kinda screw defensive calcs over), Reflect, Taunt, etc. But its counters are widely known at this point and Tapu Lele can't do much back against them.

The most-reliable-checks:

,
,
,
,
,
,
and others...​



Why does this cancer exist? One thing makes Mimikyu great: Disguise. This lets Mimikyu efficiently run two of the most common sets: Swords Dance and Curse. Swords Dance set, while less common, is mostly guaranteed to have a turn to set up thanks to Disguise, and this lets Mimikyu boost its lackluster power and OHKO frail threats next turn. More viable set is the set involving Curse, which other Pokemon is not capable of running because they can't afford to survive a hit and have more than 50% of HP left to use such move. However, Mimikyu can safely use Curse thank to Disguise and spam Protect and Substitute to shut down anything that is slower and lacks recovery.
Now let's move on to this 'mon's drawbacks: Swords Dance is easy af to wall with zard x using Will-O-Wisp, or simply sending out fat 'mons like Ferrothorn and Celesteela. Even against less bulky opponents, 90 base attack leaves Mimikyu quite reliant on Z-move to do some actual damage, or it will have to be reliant on its Swords Dance boost while having fun surviving a hit with its 55 / 80 / 105 bulk without Disguise in this meta where Z-move spams are everywhere. So that leaves Cursekyu so much better option than setup variants of Mimikyu. Now what about Cursekyu? This is also predictable. Curse / Protect / Substitute is staple, and the other slot is Shadow Claw / Shadow Sneak or Play Rough with appropriate Z-crystal. I am not sure how other people checks it but what I do is simply sending out something with recovery or Rock Tomb. Probably this is a little complex option, but stuff like Donphan / Tapu Bulu / Electroweb Magnezone I use can check Mimikyu very easily. Just like Tapu Lele, Mimikyu has good STAB but it has 0 way to get past fat 'mons without a boost, and if it decides to run Swords Dance, it will mostly lose against most offensive 'mons. It has no way around its usual checks.

The most-reliable-checks:

Both forms of
,
,
,
or any other fat mon that can slow Mimikyu


Gyarados is probably a 'mon that resembles the most of Kyurem-B by being fat, a powerful physical attacker, and having access to Mold Breaker. Unlike Kyurem-B, this thing has Dragon Dance which can be used to boost 155 base Attack even further while compensating its Speed stat.
But what really draws back this fish is its obvious movepool. What else it carries other than Waterfall, Crunch, Outrage, Earthquake, and maybe Ice Fang? This leaves Fairy and Grass-types entirely viable option to stop it. Though it involves usage of some underrated / underused / gimmicky 'mons, there are counters that are able to reliably check it. The most common ones I use are Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, and others. There are plenty of stuff out there like Tapu Koko / Lele, Mega Altaria, bulky zard x with wisp, Magearna, Venusaur, and others and like all other 'mons I have mentioned, there is not a single way around these checks barring hax. (If you say Flyinium Z Gyarados I will actually murder you).

Also its bulk, even with Intimidate, requires some EV-shifting to be bulky enough to taken on the meta because of its common weakness to Electric and Fairy. This sometimes ends up compromising the power and changing outcome against the matchup against likes of zard x, Mega Metagross, Mega Mawile, and others.

The most-reliable-checks:

,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
, and others...​


Sorry about long lecture about other 'mons when you asked about Kyurem-B (I know that you know all these), I will finally proceed to explain Kyurem-B:



Ice and Dragon type. 170 Attack and 120 SpAtk or something similar is nowhere to be found in current 1v1 metagame outsides Kyurem-B. This already proves that Kyurem-B can run mixed sets unlike all 'mons I have mentioned except Tapu Koko. Literally no one in this meta likes taking BP 200 Subzero Slammer from this monster except the behemoths like Mega Aggron. On top of that, it has 125 / 100 / 90 bulk. 125 HP literally lets this Kyurem get 252 HP and live stuff like +1 Outrage from Gyarados, Moonblast from Tapu Lele by shifting the rest to appropriate EV's.

Outsides its bullsh*t base stats, what makes Kyurem-B a real pain in the ass to deal with is the access to Teravolt. If this guy didn't bypass ability, the following 'mons will be a check or at least have some chance against it at this point:


Teravolt says **** you to Sturdy users, obliterates Mimikyu, and tears Venusaur apart.

So countering this Kyurem-B means you have to find something that is bulky enough to take BP 200 move from 170+ Attack 'mon in the worst case scenario. Majority of Ice-resistant 'mons are unfortunately not able to stop this monster because Earth Power bops Steel-types...

0 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Aggron-Mega: 158-188 (45.9 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO (uninvested)

... while Fusion Bolt grills Water-types. Tapu Fini can't live 2 Fusion Bolt at 252 HP / 252+ Defense so I hope that clarifies Water-types cannot evade 2HKO from Fusion Bolt with the exception of Swampert-Mega.

So what can actually counter this kid? I would say the only 'mons that are able to beat it in most scenario are these:

: Stilll has to watch out for Weakness Policy
: If Kyurem-B uses sub on Yawn, life is over
: Don't let this guy get memed by Groundium Z.

Edit: Oops, there are other stuff like Mega Heracross I forgot to mention and Swampert is not that reliable but you know them all already.

Why not faster Dragons? They are going to be popped by Scarf sets.

Shortly, Kyurem-B has very limited counterplay which can be bypassed by investing on bulk, and base stats make this possible. Even when Marshadow was roaming around, Kyurem-B was one of the only stuff that could live SS7SS or CC without dumping whole lot of EV's on bulk:

252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 384-452 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What differentiates Kyurem-B from Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Mimikyu, and Gyarados is the fact that Kyurem-B requires a counter to have both the specific typing AND sufficient natural bulk, while Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele only requires an appropriate typing, Mimikyu requires a bulky mon with slowing move or an appropriate offensive 'mon, and Gyarados requires either acceptable bulk or dominant typing. This is very similar to Marshadow which required something really, really bulky to live SS7SS while having appropriate typing to take neutral damage from both of its STAB moves.

This is why I believe Kyurem-B is broken over Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Mimikyu, Gyarados, or anything else in the 1v1 metagame at this point. I was silently waiting for its decline as new megastones were being released, but with the exception of Aggronite release, nothing else seemed to make a change. I think the wait was long enough to see if Kyurem-B should really stay or should go. I hope this answered your question and clarified my overall thoughts about Kyurem-B and please feel free to point out anything that you do not agree with. Thanks.
 
Last edited:
This is my personal opinion but I will gladly answer this:


Tapu Koko is currently known as a fast attacker of the team that is ready to handle any variants of Mega Gyarados, and is able to stop FEAR or stall shenanigans using Taunt / Substitute or both. It is able to get past bulky opponents using Charge, and these are main niche of Tapu Koko in current meta. These utilities unfortunately lock Tapu Koko into a very one-dimentional sets, and it is not like it can function as a diverse walbreaker thanks to its horrific coverage outsides Dazzling Gleam, Grass Knot, and maybe HP Ice. Even while carrying these coverage moves in exchange of forfeiting to get aforementioned utility moves, it is not like Tapu Koko is going to beat Dragons / Sturdy's / or Ground-types. This leaves Tapu Koko very predictable compared to Kyurem-B whose sets are clearly more multi-dimentional than Tapu Koko.
It has horrific bulk compared to the rest of the meta and except when maybe using Charge against weak opponent / weak coverage, it will most likely be OHKOed by most neutral Z-moves or any SE STAB moves, leaving it reliant on predictions to block certain moves with Substitute, and know when to Taunt / Charge.
Tapu Koko's offensive stats aren't great, it is Electirc Surge what fuels its power. Its coverages are significantly weaker:

252+ SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 280-332 (87.7 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 268-316 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 254-300 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And I am more than sure that Landorus-T runs more bulk than just 0 HP. Tapu Koko's STAB is devastatingly powerful and is able to run both physical and special Electrium Z sets, but that's about it. Electric-immune 'mons beat this guy without a question, and those who live Gigavolt Havoc is most likely able to OHKO Tapu Koko in return, and if Tapu Koko is running bulk to compensate this situation, that means it is compromising its power at the same time.

The most-reliable checks:

,
,
,
,
,
,
and others...​




This is another guardian deity that has terrain boost. This time, it is Psychic Terrain that leaves Tapu Lele powerful, and unlike Tapu Koko, it has Fairy-typing as well which lets it have much better matchup with Dark-types. It also has access to utility move such as Taunt to shut down passive threats, Calm Mind to deal with Tapu Fini / specially bulky foes, and can make much better usage of Z-Reflect to get past Mega Gyarados, Golem, and Donphan. These aren't to be considered as the only strength of Tapu Lele, however; Tapu Lele has significantly better offensive stat (130 Sp.Atk) that allows it to use Shattered Psyche to outright OHKO anything that is not bulky enough, limiting its checks even narrower. However, Tapu Lele has the same issue with Tapu Koko; it is predictable. Tapu Lele usually can't afford to run more attack moves other than Psychic / Psyshock and Moonblast unless it is running choice item, because it will have harder time against Sturdy users and stalling opponents. In addition, Tapu Lele does not profit too much from running extra coverage outsides its dual STAB moves because it is not like it will beat Celesteela even if it has Thunderbolt or Magnezone with Focus Blast. Therefore, Tapu Lele's offensive trait in 1v1 is quite predictable, and Steel-types are known to easily keep it in check. Because of its mediocre speed tier, Tapu Lele has options to invest some EV's on its bulk but it usually fails to change matchup against opponents it already loses to:

252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 322-381 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
112 Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele through Reflect: 160-189 (48.3 - 57%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 295-348 (89.1 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Tapu Lele has much better dual STAB than Tapu Koko and has good utility in Psychic Surge that blocks Fake Out (which would otherwise kinda screw defensive calcs over), Reflect, Taunt, etc. But its counters are widely known at this point and Tapu Lele can't do much back against them.

The most-reliable-checks:

,
,
,
,
,
,
and others...​



Why does this cancer exist? One thing makes Mimikyu great: Disguise. This lets Mimikyu efficiently run two of the most common sets: Swords Dance and Curse. Swords Dance set, while less common, is mostly guaranteed to have a turn to set up thanks to Disguise, and this lets Mimikyu boost its lackluster power and OHKO frail threats next turn. More viable set is the set involving Curse, which other Pokemon is not capable of running because they can't afford to survive a hit and have more than 50% of HP left to use such move. However, Mimikyu can safely use Curse thank to Disguise and spam Protect and Substitute to shut down anything that is slower and lacks recovery.
Now let's move on to this 'mon's drawbacks: Swords Dance is easy af to wall with zard x using Will-O-Wisp, or simply sending out fat 'mons like Ferrothorn and Celesteela. Even against less bulky opponents, 90 base attack leaves Mimikyu quite reliant on Z-move to do some actual damage, or it will have to be reliant on its Swords Dance boost while having fun surviving a hit with its 55 / 80 / 105 bulk without Disguise in this meta where Z-move spams are everywhere. So that leaves Cursekyu so much better option than setup variants of Mimikyu. Now what about Cursekyu? This is also predictable. Curse / Protect / Substitute is staple, and the other slot is Shadow Claw / Shadow Sneak or Play Rough with appropriate Z-crystal. I am not sure how other people checks it but what I do is simply sending out something with recovery or Rock Tomb. Probably this is a little complex option, but stuff like Donphan / Tapu Bulu / Electroweb Magnezone I use can check Mimikyu very easily. Just like Tapu Lele, Mimikyu has good STAB but it has 0 way to get past fat 'mons without a boost, and if it decides to run Swords Dance, it will mostly lose against most offensive 'mons. It has no way around its usual checks.

The most-reliable-checks:

Both forms of
,
,
,
or any other fat mon that can slow Mimikyu


Gyarados is probably a 'mon that resembles the most of Kyurem-B by being fat, a powerful physical attacker, and having access to Mold Breaker. Unlike Kyurem-B, this thing has Dragon Dance which can be used to boost 155 base Attack even further while compensating its Speed stat.
But what really draws back this fish is its obvious movepool. What else it carries other than Waterfall, Crunch, Outrage, Earthquake, and maybe Ice Fang? This leaves Fairy and Grass-types entirely viable option to stop it. Though it involves usage of some underrated / underused / gimmicky 'mons, there are counters that are able to reliably check it. The most common ones I use are Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, and others. There are plenty of stuff out there like Tapu Koko / Lele, Mega Altaria, bulky zard x with wisp, Magearna, Venusaur, and others and like all other 'mons I have mentioned, there is not a single way around these checks barring hax. (If you say Flyinium Z Gyarados I will actually murder you).

Also its bulk, even with Intimidate, requires some EV-shifting to be bulky enough to taken on the meta because of its common weakness to Electric and Fairy. This sometimes ends up compromising the power and changing outcome against the matchup against likes of zard x, Mega Metagross, Mega Mawile, and others.

The most-reliable-checks:

,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
, and others...​


Sorry about long lecture about other 'mons when you asked about Kyurem-B (I know that you know all these), I will finally proceed to explain Kyurem-B:



Ice and Dragon type. 170 Attack and 120 SpAtk or something similar is nowhere to be found in current 1v1 metagame outsides Kyurem-B. This already proves that Kyurem-B can run mixed sets unlike all 'mons I have mentioned except Tapu Koko. Literally no one in this meta likes taking BP 200 Subzero Slammer from this monster except the behemoths like Mega Aggron. On top of that, it has 125 / 100 / 90 bulk. 125 HP literally lets this Kyurem get 252 HP and live stuff like +1 Outrage from Gyarados, Moonblast from Tapu Lele by shifting the rest to appropriate EV's.

Outsides its bullsh*t base stats, what makes Kyurem-B a real pain in the ass to deal with is the access to Teravolt. If this guy didn't bypass ability, the following 'mons will be a check or at least have some chance against it at this point:


Teravolt says **** you to Sturdy users, obliterates Mimikyu, and tears Venusaur apart.

So countering this Kyurem-B means you have to find something that is bulky enough to take BP 200 move from 170+ Attack 'mon in the worst case scenario. Majority of Ice-resistant 'mons are unfortunately not able to stop this monster because Earth Power bops Steel-types...

0 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Aggron-Mega: 158-188 (45.9 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO (uninvested)

... while Fusion Bolt grills Water-types. Tapu Fini can't live Fusion Bolt at 252 HP / 252 Defense so I hope that clarifies Water-types cannot evade 2HKO from Fusion Bolt with the exception of Swampert-Mega.

So what can actually counter this kid? I would say the only 'mons that are able to beat it in most scenario are these:

: Stilll has to watch out for Weakness Policy
: If Kyurem-B uses sub on Yawn, life is over
: Don't let this guy get memed by Groundium Z.

Why not faster Dragons? They are going to be popped by Scarf sets.

Shortly, Kyurem-B has very limited counterplay which can be bypassed by investing on bulk, and base stats make this possible. Even when Marshadow was roaming around, Kyurem-B was one of the only stuff that could live SS7SS without dumping whole lot of EV's on bulk:

252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 384-452 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What differentiates Kyurem-B from Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Mimikyu, and Gyarados is the fact that Kyurem-B requires a counter to have both the specific typing AND sufficient natural bulk, while Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele only requires an appropriate typing, Mimikyu requires a bulky mon with slowing move or an appropriate offensive 'mon, and Gyarados requires either acceptable bulk or dominant typing. This is very similar to Marshadow which required something really, really bulky to live SS7SS while having appropriate typing to take neutral damage from both of its STAB moves.

This is why I believe Kyurem-B is broken over Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Mimikyu, Gyarados, or anything else in the 1v1 metagame at this point. I was silently waiting for its decline as new megastones were being released, but with the exception of Aggronite release, nothing else seemed to make a change. I think the wait was long enough to see if Kyurem-B should really stay or should go. I hope this answered your question and clarified my overall thoughts about Kyurem-B and please feel free to point out anything that you do not agree with. Thanks.
My apologies that I do not feel like making lost posts on my cell phone, but I may add short tidbits here and there. I am not sure why Swampert-Mega was one of the things coming in as a Kyurem-Black check; it certainly is not my first instinct. In the community, there is a general consensus that these mons are solid Kyurem-Black checks: Genesect, Terrakion, Porygon2, Tapu Lele:
100+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black in Psychic Terrain: 462-544 (101.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I do not know spreads, but this is at least as much as Tapu Lele runs, while tanking an Iron Head), Lucario-Mega(which can tank a scarfed Earth Power with very little bulk), Heracross-Mega(with the weird bulk it runs), Gyarados-Mega(which has Weakness Policy to watch out, but if you notice that -1 0 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 142-168 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, sorry DEG, but you can Dragon Dance again, Metagross-Mega which cares little about Weakness Policy (+2 0 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 280-330 (76.9 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), Gardevoir-Mega, Aegislash, Keldeo, and Durant. These are the mons that people have on teams, because they are good mons in the meta, and they keep Kyurem-Black in check.
Edit: sigh.... i must admit that Tapu Fini has hot trashness in its face, but
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 450-530 (99.1 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 260-308 (75.5 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
ALSO PRIMARINA THE QUEEN, which has enough bulk to tank a Fusion Bolt
and retaliate...
0+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 450-530 (99.1 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
 
Last edited:

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
My apologies that I do not feel like making lost posts on my cell phone, but I may add short tidbits here and there. I am not sure why Swampert-Mega was one of the things coming in as a Kyurem-Black check; it certainly is not my first instinct. In the community, there is a general consensus that these mons are solid Kyurem-Black checks: Genesect, Terrakion, Porygon2, Tapu Lele:
100+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black in Psychic Terrain: 462-544 (101.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I do not know spreads, but this is at least as much as Tapu Lele runs, while tanking an Iron Head), Lucario-Mega(which can tank a scarfed Earth Power with very little bulk), Heracross-Mega(with the weird bulk it runs), Gyarados-Mega(which has Weakness Policy to watch out, but if you notice that -1 0 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 142-168 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, sorry DEG, but you can Dragon Dance again, Metagross-Mega which cares little about Weakness Policy (+2 0 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 280-330 (76.9 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), Gardevoir-Mega, Aegislash, Keldeo, and Durant. These are the mons that people have on teams, because they are good mons in the meta, and they keep Kyurem-Black in check.
Edit: sigh.... i must admit that Tapu Fini has hot trashness in its face, but
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 450-530 (99.1 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 260-308 (75.5 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Some of these checks/counters seem valid, but there are some things I don't like here I want to point out.

1. Porygon2 is D tier. I myself think it should be C at least, but the point is, you should not have to run something that crappy just to beat one Pokemon.

2. Gardevoir-Mega dies to Scarf Iron Head Kyurem-Black.

3. Mega Heracross requires a shit-ton of physical bulk to tank Adamant 252 Attack SS (252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Heracross-Mega: 307-363 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Arm Thrust Megacross fails to KO back, and Close Combat variants lose to UOP Bulky Icium. Since you are left with just 92 Attack EVs without a boosting nature, this also means that Mega Heracross' main niche, being it's immense wall-breaking potential, takes quite a cut. A similar situation goes for Keldeo, though not quite as bad.

4. Tapu Fini and Primarina fall to Banded Kyurem (252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 354-418 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO).

5. Ok, so bulky Mega Metagross wins. But what about speedy variants?

6. Not sure if these are used much, but Tapu Lele gets cucked by speedy Icium/Band. Also, Scarf Moonblast is not a guaranteed OHKO.

Everything else you listed, admittedly, does do well as a counter. But it's still slim pickings.
 
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