Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[The Official Glyx]

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Hex
- Focus Blast
- Substitute / Sludge Wave

60% = You just need to hit Hypnosis and you win
40% = You need to hit Hypnosis and get a two turn sleep
20% = You need to hit Hypnosis and get a max sleep

Where the percentages come from

60% = the probability of hitting Hypnosis
40% = the probability of hitting Hypnosis and getting a two turn sleep
20% = the probability of hitting Hypnosis and getting a three turn (max) sleep

How Sleep as a status condition works is that a number from 1-3 is randomly generated as soon as the mon is put to sleep. This number, also known as the "sleep counter", determines how many turns the Pokemon afflicted with Sleep will stay asleep, with 1 being the absolute minimum. In the case of Gengar, once a Pokemon has successfully been put to sleep, they will immediately burn up that free turn you get, since Gengar relies on being faster for most of its wins, or would otherwise just rely on Focus Blast for certain cases like Scarf Porygon-Z. With the free turn burnt up after landing Hypnosis, you now either instantly win by OHKOing them with boosted Hex, or you have to get more turns. Needing more turns means that you're relying on the sleep counter to be a number greater than 1; with the only outcomes being 1, 2, or 3, with no extra weighting behind each outcome, this means that your opponent will stay asleep for more than 1 turn 2 out of 3 times upon putting them to sleep. With the odds of your opponent being to sleep being at 60% with Hypnosis' accuracy, this means that the odds of them staying asleep for at least 2 turns are 40%, two thirds of the initial 60%.

Where it gets a bit more complicated is the third turn of sleep. You see, once an opponent has been asleep for 2 turns, you're now limited to 2 outcomes, instead of the initial 3. This is because the chance for a 1 turn sleep is gone, due to the opponent having been asleep for a number of turns greater than 1, thus reducing the final outcome to one of two options: a 2 turn sleep and a 3 turn (or "max") sleep. Because of this, the odds of getting a 3 turn sleep are half the odds of getting a 2 turn sleep: 20%.

With that said, let's consider the odds of Gengar securing an automatic win against the upper VR. I'm not including C+ and below because of time and most of those mons are bleh.

E: I've learned after the fact that Cursed Body does not activate behind Substitute, so please excuse me whenever I mention it - Osra 11/8/19

matchups

S Rank
Charizard-Mega - 60% vs unbulked X, 40% vs everything else
Dragonite - 40%
Gyarados-Mega - 28% (2 turn sleep + hitting focus blast) vs unbulked it's a roll slightly not in your favor vs max HP as well 14% (3 turn sleep + hitting focus blast) vs bulked
Magearna - W with Sub I think?, 60% without Sub

A+ Rank
Porygon-Z - 70% with Focus Blast
Tapu Lele - W with Sludge, 60% without Sludge (with a little extra from the odds of being able to fish for Cursed Body)

A Rank
Greninja - 70% with Focus Blast (with Cursed Body to fish for disable)
Magnezone - 40%
Meloetta - ??? 76% with Sub fishing for Cursed Body, though you also have to hit multiple Focus Blast, so idrk
Metagross-Mega - 60%
Mew - 60% vs Mewnium, W vs Kee?
Slowbro-Mega - W vs physdef with Hex, 80.8% vs spdef (You win if you hit the first one, but still have a backup 40% win on turn 2 if you miss, as well as another backup 20% on turn 3 if you miss turn 2 as well)
Zygarde-Complete - 65.7% with Sub fishing for Cursed Body. You don't have to rely on Focus Blast for this one, but you do need Cursed Body to activate before you use your 4th Sub, since Z-moves bypass being disabled. 20% without Sub


A- Rank
Aegislash - 60% without Sub. With Sub, you can force them to undergo a 50/50 between either attacking again and KOing with Sneak on the next turn, or using King's Shield so they don't get OHKOd in Blade form. The possible outcomes of this are: 60% to hit Hypnosis with them predicting another Sub, 84% with them using Shield which gives you another chance to hit Hypnosis, or a 50% win because you used Hex predicting them to continue attacking.
Gardevoir-Mega - This one varies with their move choice, but at worst it's 60%. At best you get a 65.7% win with Sub fishing for Psyshock to be disabled in the first 3 subs leaving their only other damaging move being Hyper Beam.
Jumpluff - W with Sludge, 60% otherwise
Kommo-o - 40%
Landorus-Therian - 60% vs unbulked, 40% vs bulked, L vs Scarf
Togekiss - 42% (Miss/No flinch) with Sludge vs Scarf, 21.84% (Miss/No Flinch/Cursed Body) without Sludge vs Scarf, 40% vs Z-wave (with some ability to fish for Cursed Body)

B+ Rank
Altaria-Mega - W with Sludge, 60% without Sludge (though they can't really do much to you, damage-wise)
Celesteela - 40% at worst
Clefable - W with Sludge, ??? with Sub (You can fish for Cursed Body + they can't break Sub with 1 Moonblast + you get multiple opportunities to fish for sleep turns)
Donphan - 40%
Garchomp - 40%, L vs Scarf
Genesect - 56% (you get 2 chances to use Hypnosis but need a 2 turn sleep) vs bulky Specs, 60% vs Scarf
Heatran - 40%
Lopunny-Mega - L
Primarina - 40%
Sableye-Mega - L
Tapu Fini - W with Sludge, L without
Tyranitar-Mega - 28% (2 turn sleep with hitting Focus Blast)
Venusaur-Mega - 40% at worst
Zeraora - L vs faster, 40% vs slower with hp/spdef, 60% vs slower without hp/spdef


B Rank
Aggron-Mega - 40%
Crustle - 40%
Ferrothorn - 40% at worst
Incineroar - 28% at worst, though Focus Blast can get some kills vs lesser-bulked Incini with the combined effort of fishing for Flare Blitz recoil after Cursed Body activates
Jirachi - 24% (they don't flinch you + you hit)
Kartana - W
Magneton - 40%
Mawile-Mega - Variable. Playing around with Sub vs Sucker and damage rolls makes this too difficult to calculate.
Naganadel - W with Sub, 60% without Sub
Necrozma - 86.28% (with fishing for Cursed Body on the first 3 subs) with Sub vs Specs, 40% at worst vs Stored Power
Pinsir-Mega - 60%
Porygon2 - Variable. Too hard to calculate between multiple possible p2 spreads, as well as sleep rolls + hitting multiple focus blasts, in addition to the extra turns you have because they can't 2HKO you.
Victini - 60%, L vs Scarf
Volcarona - 40%


B- Rank
Archeops - W (Hex activates Defeatist and they can't KO you), L vs Scarf
Audino-Mega - 28% with Sludge and Focus Blast, L without Sludge
Blastoise-Mega - 40 at worst
Blaziken - 50/50 between Protect vs Sub turn 1. If you hit Hypnosis predicting them to attack turn 1, then it's 40% (they're faster turn 2). If you Sub predicting them to Protect turn 1, then it's 60%
Camerupt-Mega - 40%
Carracosta - 40%
Deoxys-S - L
Diancie-Mega - L
Durant - 72% without Sub, almost guaranteed W with Sub
Golem - 40%
Haxorus - 60%, L vs Scarf
Hoopa-Unbound - 40%, L vs Scarf
Krookodile - 70%
Kyurem - 40%
Latias-Mega - 60%
Manaphy - 40%
Medicham-Mega - 60%
Raikou - 40%
Sawk - 40%, L vs Scarf
Swampert-Mega - 40%
Vivillon - W with Sludge, 60% without Sludge
Whimsicott - W with Sludge, 50/50 without Sludge (your Sub vs their Sub)
Zapdos - 40%

If you've been counting, that's 17 total mons that reliably counter Gengar with a minimum reliability of 76%, most of which relying on either Choice Scarf, for Gengar to not have Sludge Wave, or particular sets in order to win.

20 total mons if you wanna include the extra 3 who counter Gengar with a minimum reliability of 61%.

Interpret the matchups as you will, but I don't find it healthy to have this many things that get slept to death 40% of the time. It'd be okay imo if most of them were 20%s, since that's the same odds as a Waterfall flinch, but this is unfortunately not the case.

 

[lost heros]

Remember when 1v1 Metagame Discussion was the most active thread? Pepperidge farm remembers.

On a separate tangent, ooh look matchups

Mega Gengar VR matchup (assuming at least 2 turn sleep and hitting hypnosis/focus blast)

First what a dumb assumption. This is like bulking assuming your scald will burn turn 1 or that your thunder wave will cause full para guaranteed. It's just a bad way of saying it's unlikely to occur and will obviously skew your results. But this is also fancy way of saying that a 130 BP Hex or Sludge Wave 2HKOs. Or for when you feel wild and need to risk a Focus Miss into hex or Sludge wave.
Also what set is this that you're using. Because apparently sometimes your second STAB Sludge wave is missing, and Substitute is a guarantee?
Which just seems weird because unlike Jumpluff, Vivillon, or other sleep-based speed traps, using Substitute to avoid turn 1 wakes is a net decrease in overall likelihood to win because now you have to hit hypnosis AGAIN meaning it's almost always better to just attack turn 2 rather than try and manipulate sleep turn rng.

Matchups and some insights on how this is presented.
gyarados W
While you technically have this correctly labelled a "win" for Mega Gengar based on your assumptions, this is only a win if you hit Focus Blast and have Sludge Wave and get 2 turns of sleep. Meaning you have a 60*.7*.67 = 28% chance of winning. I'll concede it's a bit higher when you factor in 3 turn sleeps meaning you'll only need to hit 1 of 2 focus blasts. Though not by much.

252 SpA Gengar-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 248-292 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 147-174 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Meloetta: W, unless psychic coverage
You mean L because Meloetta is more likely to carry Psyshock than it is Laser Focus and nearly every recommended set includes it either in main moves or as a slash, so it's weird that you'd consider Psychic-Stabless first rather than second.

Fini: Inconsistent, Gen needs sludge wave, otherwise fini wins
Fun things most people forget about Misty Terrain is that you can't be Statused and therefore can't be put to sleep and since Sludge Wave doesn't always OHKO the Waterium Z set wins with 252 HP/ 252 SpA. Or if the Gengar has substitute it becomes a 50/50 on when to click Hydro Vortex.

252 SpA Gengar-Mega Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 306-360 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar-Mega: 279-328 (106.8 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar-Mega: 166-196 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

mega ttar: W
Similar thing to Mega Gyarados
Checking usage, Tyranitar runs HP and some special Bulk and going off that Focus Blast by itself doesn't OHKO, therefore you need a 2 turn sleep and Focus Blast to hit. So really not winning odds here.

252 SpA Gengar-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 348-412 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

mawile: W
Mawile has sucker punch so in the turns after Hypnosis hits, Mawile will start moving first in the turn order effectively accelerating its sleep counter by 1. Since with a smidgen of Special investment Mawile is guaranteed to survive Hex, you actually need a 3 turn sleep to beat Mega Mawile.

252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Mawile-Mega: 256-303 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Secondly, this is an awful way to present an argument even if it's just a list of matchups. I never know what moves you're using nor the order in which you're using them. I don't know the spreads of the opposing pokemon or anything else about the sets you're talking about. There are no damage calcs or example matches. So overall I have no idea what's happening and just have to take your word that these matches are wins and these matches are losses. Which is a huge problem because you're clearly biased in presenting positive matches for Mega Gengar. Any time a pokemon COULD run scarf you write it off as win FIRST and a potential scarf second regardless about the usage or viability of the pokemon and sets, which is just the most obvious example of biasing where I'm sure when you wrote the post there were more subtle match-ups that demonstrated this bias, that I just didn't look in to.

So I’ve been meaning to bring up Mega Gengar for a while. This Pokemon is basically downright busted, cough cough if you’re lucky enough cough cough. RNG abuse in 1v1 is usually a tricky discussion, cause everyone doesn’t really agree at what levels RNG becomes unnaceptable, and when it just becomes part of the game that is Pokemon.

For me personally, I think that in order to properly gauge if a mon is a sufficiently broken RNG abuser, you need to take into account not only the Pokemon’s chance to win but also how much of the metagame that Pokemon can beat using its RNG strat. For example, Jirachi can technically beat any mon below 492 speed, and lacking inner focus. But, the chances of this actually happening against some of the most common Pokemon in the game, like Greninja and Mega Gyarados, and most Ground or Steel-types, is pretty slim, so in reality, its not that bad of an issue and can’t prove itself to be reliable. Something like an OHKO move, on the other hand, can beat any Pokemon it can land a hit on, barring sturdy Pokemon, 30% of the time. Acknowledging that Sturdy is one of the best abilities in 1v1, that would still allow OHKO moves to beat more than 80% of the metagame with 30% consistency, which to me seems absurdly broken/uncompetitive/whatever trigger word you want to use.

So first off, I hate this argument. It's ignorant of the history and context of why OHKO moves are banned in 1v1, feigns knowledge of something that was never allowed in 1v1, and conflates different aspects of the game together all because numbers look similar.

As for the history and context of 1v1 and OHKO moves, 1v1 never had OHKO. OHKO was banned in gen 4(I think) and 1v1 initially inherited the OU banlist. As development of 1v1 changed through generation 5 and 6, 1v1 established itself by re-evaluating some Ubers pokemon, Perish Song, and Focus Sash and eventually deciding whether these elements were fair in a strictly 1v1 environment. This is something we never did with OHKO moves. We never looked in to them and we never evaluated them for a 1v1 setting, which is why it's so fallacious to compare Mega Gengar to OHKO moves. Taking Mega Gengar and pointing to OHKO moves while shouting "THIS IS LIKE THAT AND WE BANNED THAT" is wrong because we didn't actually look and ban OHKO moves nor do we have any real idea what "That" is like, which leads to my next point.

Whenever this comparison is made, OHKO moves are treated as a one time strict percentage chance to win, which makes no sense. It's like a weird frail pokemon with a high speed tier, no ability, a scarf and no other moves besides the OHKO.
What's to stop OHKO moves from being used on these sets?

Golem and Friends

Golem @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Fissure
- Counter

Steelix @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Fissure
- Heavy Slam
- Stone Edge

Dragonite @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Multiscale
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
- Barrier
- Horn Drill

All of which the clear intention is to use these OHKO moves more than once. Or maybe on a bulky pokemon like Mew that says I'd rather win with Horn Drill after I bulk up. Or just on any pokemon that decides, "hey I already have a good matchup against a good amount of pokemon with this scarf, why don't I sacrifice some specific coverage for this OHKO move that acts as one."

Finally, OHKO moves are first and foremost moves. They have a distribution, can be utilized differently on different sets, every pokemon that learns them might not be equally viable with them nor will they all use them the same or at all. Mega Gengar is a Pokemon. You know when it's coming. You generally know what it's going to do and how it's going to do that. It has a singular viability. They're fundamentally very different mechanics that shouldn't be conflated.

When you compare both the chances of winning through RNG and the coverage offered by this, it paints a picture of how overwhelming Mega Gengar can be. Mega Gengar has a 60% chance to land a Hypnosis, allowing it to already OHKO a sizeable chunck of the metagame. A base 130 ghost stab off of a 170 spa is no joke. For two turns of sleep, the odds move to 26% (.6 x .66 = .396 spooky) which basically allows Mega Gengar to beat everything thats not a Dark or Normal type. Although, Dark and Normal types aren’t a huge issue either, as Mega Gengar’s Focus Blast will put them to sleep, metaphorically.

As you can all see, this leads to Mega Gengar basically being capable of beating around 90% of the metagame, even more so if you don’t assume your opponent runs Choice Scarf. Only 5 Pokemon can hardcounter Mega Gengar. Not all Scarf Pokemon can beat Mega Gengar reliably, too. Against Scarf Greninja, Mega Gengar lives one attack, giving it the opportunity to win if it hits Hypnosis. Essentially, Mega Gengar gets above OHKO move accuracy odds at beating almost every Pokemon in the game. In addition to the sheer matchups, Mega Gengar is incredibly splashable on a team thanks to its perfect coverage, and will often psychologically warp a game around it, as most players don’t have teams with Mega Gengar answers, and will therefore need to worry if they should send their best Mega Gengar check or not. To me, thats pretty bad. But, I’m not everyone; I’d love to hear what people in 1v1 think of Mega Gengar: is it busted, or are people overestimating it?

P.S. if you think I’ve made any mistakes/forgot a mon to include in VR, lmk so I can address that and fix this post.

P.S.S. For this post i considered the gengar set to be hypnosis, hex, focus blast, and either Substitute or Sludge Wave.

For a pokemon that's apparently so powerful and so splashable, there seems to be a severe disconnect on it's actual usage on ladder and in tournaments. At 1630, it's #53 with 1.46% usage, and while PL stats aren't out yet, it wasn't an overwhelming presence there either. The only thing of note is that it's significantly more used than its C+ counterparts, probably because it's so well known and easily used.

And as for the lack of "hard counter" issues eh. It's really not. Most pokemon with a scarf or the few with some really high natural speed tiers will almost always be able to counter it. So most teams already have in the back of their mind some necessity to go fast, so I'd argue that more teams are more prepared than you give them credit for, and while it doesn't have many hard dedicated counters, nearly every pokemon effectively soft counters it because it almost always needs to hit hypnosis turn 1 to win.[/spoiler]

 

[Boat]

I could not agree more with TDA. I'm very anti-RNG, as one of the two people that voted ban on Jirachi, and I think the MGengar is even more offensive in this regard. Starting the anti-RNG march with MGengar seems appropriate to me.

 

[CashKP]

I mean the way I look at it is MegaGar is a mon for "worse players." The reason the usage is so low at 1630 is because the players who can get to that rank wont bring something that only wins half of the time. Its the same reason the PL usage is probably low too (or even 0%) because no one is going to risk their PL games on a coinflip.

RNG is extremely frustrating in 1v1 specifically because any bad roll/crit/status effect just ends the game. You can't play your way back into the game like in standard tiers. In 1v1 you just lose if you even get slightly unlucky. So people dont like to use MegaGar because it's just frustrating to rely on suboptimal percent chances every game.

On the flip side, its not fun to play against because it has nothing to do with game skill. You just sit back, click and hope the RNG goes your way.

I have always thought that was unhealthy for the game but it's so luck dependent it's usage is low. Then because of the low usage people dont really complain about it because its "out of sight, out of mind."

 

[Patricick]

First what a dumb assumption. This is like bulking assuming your scald will burn turn 1 or that your thunder wave will cause full para guaranteed. It's just a bad way of saying it's unlikely to occur and will obviously skew your results. But this is also fancy way of saying that a 130 BP Hex or Sludge Wave 2HKOs. Or for when you feel wild and need to risk a Focus Miss into hex or Sludge wave.
Also what set is this that you're using. Because apparently sometimes your second STAB Sludge wave is missing, and Substitute is a guarantee?
Which just seems weird because unlike Jumpluff, Vivillon, or other sleep-based speed traps, using Substitute to avoid turn 1 wakes is a net decrease in overall likelihood to win because now you have to hit hypnosis AGAIN meaning it's almost always better to just attack turn 2 rather than try and manipulate sleep turn rng.

Matchups and some insights on how this is presented.
gyarados W
While you technically have this correctly labelled a "win" for Mega Gengar based on your assumptions, this is only a win if you hit Focus Blast and have Sludge Wave and get 2 turns of sleep. Meaning you have a 60*.7*.67 = 28% chance of winning. I'll concede it's a bit higher when you factor in 3 turn sleeps meaning you'll only need to hit 1 of 2 focus blasts. Though not by much.

252 SpA Gengar-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 248-292 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 147-174 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Meloetta: W, unless psychic coverage
You mean L because Meloetta is more likely to carry Psyshock than it is Laser Focus and nearly every recommended set includes it either in main moves or as a slash, so it's weird that you'd consider Psychic-Stabless first rather than second.

Fini: Inconsistent, Gen needs sludge wave, otherwise fini wins
Fun things most people forget about Misty Terrain is that you can't be Statused and therefore can't be put to sleep and since Sludge Wave doesn't always OHKO the Waterium Z set wins with 252 HP/ 252 SpA. Or if the Gengar has substitute it becomes a 50/50 on when to click Hydro Vortex.

252 SpA Gengar-Mega Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 306-360 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar-Mega: 279-328 (106.8 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar-Mega: 166-196 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

mega ttar: W
Similar thing to Mega Gyarados
Checking usage, Tyranitar runs HP and some special Bulk and going off that Focus Blast by itself doesn't OHKO, therefore you need a 2 turn sleep and Focus Blast to hit. So really not winning odds here.

252 SpA Gengar-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 348-412 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

mawile: W
Mawile has sucker punch so in the turns after Hypnosis hits, Mawile will start moving first in the turn order effectively accelerating its sleep counter by 1. Since with a smidgen of Special investment Mawile is guaranteed to survive Hex, you actually need a 3 turn sleep to beat Mega Mawile.

252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Mawile-Mega: 256-303 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Secondly, this is an awful way to present an argument even if it's just a list of matchups. I never know what moves you're using nor the order in which you're using them. I don't know the spreads of the opposing pokemon or anything else about the sets you're talking about. There are no damage calcs or example matches. So overall I have no idea what's happening and just have to take your word that these matches are wins and these matches are losses. Which is a huge problem because you're clearly biased in presenting positive matches for Mega Gengar. Any time a pokemon COULD run scarf you write it off as win FIRST and a potential scarf second regardless about the usage or viability of the pokemon and sets, which is just the most obvious example of biasing where I'm sure when you wrote the post there were more subtle match-ups that demonstrated this bias, that I just didn't look in to.




So first off, I hate this argument. It's ignorant of the history and context of why OHKO moves are banned in 1v1, feigns knowledge of something that was never allowed in 1v1, and conflates different aspects of the game together all because numbers look similar.

As for the history and context of 1v1 and OHKO moves, 1v1 never had OHKO. OHKO was banned in gen 4(I think) and 1v1 initially inherited the OU banlist. As development of 1v1 changed through generation 5 and 6, 1v1 established itself by re-evaluating some Ubers pokemon, Perish Song, and Focus Sash and eventually deciding whether these elements were fair in a strictly 1v1 environment. This is something we never did with OHKO moves. We never looked in to them and we never evaluated them for a 1v1 setting, which is why it's so fallacious to compare Mega Gengar to OHKO moves. Taking Mega Gengar and pointing to OHKO moves while shouting "THIS IS LIKE THAT AND WE BANNED THAT" is wrong because we didn't actually look and ban OHKO moves nor do we have any real idea what "That" is like, which leads to my next point.

Whenever this comparison is made, OHKO moves are treated as a one time strict percentage chance to win, which makes no sense. It's like a weird frail pokemon with a high speed tier, no ability, a scarf and no other moves besides the OHKO.
What's to stop OHKO moves from being used on these sets?

Golem and Friends

Golem @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Fissure
- Counter

Steelix @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Fissure
- Heavy Slam
- Stone Edge

Dragonite @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Multiscale
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
- Barrier
- Horn Drill

All of which the clear intention is to use these OHKO moves more than once. Or maybe on a bulky pokemon like Mew that says I'd rather win with Horn Drill after I bulk up. Or just on any pokemon that decides, "hey I already have a good matchup against a good amount of pokemon with this scarf, why don't I sacrifice some specific coverage for this OHKO move that acts as one."

Finally, OHKO moves are first and foremost moves. They have a distribution, can be utilized differently on different sets, every pokemon that learns them might not be equally viable with them nor will they all use them the same or at all. Mega Gengar is a Pokemon. You know when it's coming. You generally know what it's going to do and how it's going to do that. It has a singular viability. They're fundamentally very different mechanics that shouldn't be conflated.


For a pokemon that's apparently so powerful and so splashable, there seems to be a severe disconnect on it's actual usage on ladder and in tournaments. At 1630, it's #53 with 1.46% usage, and while PL stats aren't out yet, it wasn't an overwhelming presence there either. The only thing of note is that it's significantly more used than its C+ counterparts, probably because it's so well known and easily used.

And as for the lack of "hard counter" issues eh. It's really not. Most pokemon with a scarf or the few with some really high natural speed tiers will almost always be able to counter it. So most teams already have in the back of their mind some necessity to go fast, so I'd argue that more teams are more prepared than you give them credit for, and while it doesn't have many hard dedicated counters, nearly every pokemon effectively soft counters it because it almost always needs to hit hypnosis turn 1 to win.[/spoiler]

To preface this, I want to say that I have no strong opinion on the subject. If he's banned, then cool, he's pretty annoying. If he remains unbanned, then whatever. And I don't disagree with this post, I just want to clarify a bit.
The reason people want Gengar banned is because of how luck based he is.(At the very least, that's why I want him banned.) Now, I'm certainly not speaking for everyone, but what I've gathered is that's why people hate him. With Gengar, there's no outplaying the opponent in the game at that point. If you face him, then it will require clicking the same move every turn hoping to wake up. (With a few exceptions) The core issue isn't that he wins unfairly, it's that he has no skill involved. If you're faster, you instantly win. If you're slower, then you're asleep for a luck dependent amount of time. The single most skilled player in the world has the same chance to win as a normie pleb. The matchup is decided by if hypnosis hits, how many turns you're asleep, and if he lands the focus blasts. As long as the opponent is at least semi competent, then there is no skill involved for both players.
Gengar isn't despised because he's overpowered, he's quite shit actually, but because it's just a flat chance to lose. If you can calculate the chance of winning for every single matchup in the game, something is clearly wrong. And you can with Gengar. There are only a few exceptions, like Aigislash.

 

[Kaif]

ok im seeing some of these dogshit posts and im annoyed, as #2 on the ladder at the moment I think I have a say on this

So let's address what Gengar-Mega does. It clicks Hypnosis > Sludge Wave / Focus Blast / Hex and then win. What does this mean? It's a worse jumpluff with a 60% win condition rather than a 75% (82.5% with wide lens) and a bit more speed. If you use gengar, there's a 2/5 chance that ur going to lose the game, added with the fact of the opposing pokemon can be faster, the opposing pokemon can't go to sleep. (Insomnia and Vital Spirit) It's pretty clear outside of some meme ladder games gengar isnt used that much.

I think that the balance of a metagame should be decided based mostly on the highest level of play (big tours such as pl and wcop) and not ladder. Although ladder usage should not be ignored.

| 52 | Gengar | 13 | 1.53% | 38.46% |

[22:18:14] *TIBot: Gengar-Mega - #68 in 1v1 | Usage: 0.96957% | Raw count: 16,279 | Weight: 0.000895515766585

As seen by the stats, gengar has an atrocious winrate compared to the average winrate being around 50% in PL. Anyone with a braincell isn't using this in a high stakes game, using Gengar is like asking for yourself to lose. Sure you might just get the long end of the stick and hit 60% hypnosis > 2 70% focus blasts and call yourself a champion, but let's be real nobody is bringing this shit. Calling for a ban on mega gengar is flatout stupid if ur not going to ban sleep as a whole, the "if he's slower he loses" also applies to vivillon who has a way more accurate sleep at 97.5% accurate sleep powders. I'm Do Not Ban on sleep and mega gengar, since gengar is a shit mon and I find sleep to be easily counterable.

I want to say that I have no strong opinion on the subject. If he's banned, then cool, he's pretty annoying. If he remains unbanned, then whatever.

This is a really bad way to look at things that are being suspected / are being discussed for a suspect. "Oh I don't like to face this mon because I have terrible matchup so I don't mind if its banished." You should look at it like "Is this pokemon too overpowered for the metagame? Is this mechanic too broken? Would the metagame be better off without it?"

Free Ohko moves, only works 30% of the time, loses to Sturdy.

stupid line, this an argument for mega-gengar ban is just plain stupid "oh gengar has a 60% chance to win, meanwhile ohko moves have a 30% chance to win and are banned." Ohko moves are banned because it's inconsistent and provide nothing to the metagame.

 

[yung choice scarf]

let's be real nobody is bringing this shit

did anyone say it was overpowered or overused, the problem is that if you get against it you might be fucked and that uncertainty is stupid

the "if he's slower he loses" also applies to vivillon who has a way more accurate sleep at 97.5% accurate sleep powders

vivillon has 89 base speed and there are tons more pokemon unaffected by sleep powder than those unaffected by hypnosis

You should look at it like "Is this pokemon too overpowered for the metagame? Is this mechanic too broken? Would the metagame be better off without it?"

z-detect wasn't overpowered, and it wasn't broken, because it wasn't consistent. the metagame was better off without it. same with this

Ohko moves are banned because it's inconsistent and provide nothing to the metagame.

mega gengar is inconsistent, what does it provide to the metagame?

 

[Kaif]

mega gengar is inconsistent, what does it provide to the metagame?

run willowisp set, its not inconsistent

z-detect wasn't overpowered, and it wasn't broken, because it wasn't consistent. the metagame was better off without it. same with this

nobody used zdetect, it was a TRASH suspect

did anyone say it was overpowered or overused, the problem is that if you get against it you might be fucked and that uncertainty is stupid

if ur vs Sing Gallade, u might be fucked. If the problem is "oh if sleep hits im dead" then ur banning sleep, not gengar

 

[Ginger Princess]

Ohko moves are banned because it's inconsistent and provide nothing to the metagame.

Thank you for defending my correlation, Mega Gengar is also inconsistent and provides nothing to the metagame.

You’re deluding yourself if you think hypnohex isn’t its best and most used set, because of its better-than-OHKO odds against most of the metagame

 

[Baleblaze]

since gengar is a shit mon

I think it's a common understanding at this point that people aren't saying MGar is Overpowered, But people saying mega Gengar is Uncompetetive ,

Oh I don't like to face this mon because I have terrible matchup so I don't mind if its banished

If someone did actually say this, then it speaks alot about their credibility.

 

[Patricick]

This is a really bad way to look at things that are being suspected / are being discussed for a suspect. "Oh I don't like to face this mon because I have terrible matchup so I don't mind if its banished." You should look at it like "Is this pokemon too overpowered for the metagame? Is this mechanic too broken? Would the metagame be better off without it?

That's obviously an awful way to think. But that's not what I said nor implied. I want Gengar banned, but I don't have an overly strong opinion on him. And besides, I was just trying to clarify something, not attack or defend the suggestion. And the answer to the questions you posed are "No", "Kinda", and "Yes". The reason I say kinda is because it depends on what you define as broken. If you're talking about pure strength, then No. If you're referring to whether Gengar breaks how the game is supposed to be played, then Yes.

Calling for a ban on mega gengar is flatout stupid if ur not going to ban sleep as a whole, the "if he's slower he loses" also applies to vivillon who has a way more accurate sleep at 97.5% accurate sleep powders.

The reason why Gengar is the most broken is because he doesn't really have any counters to actually land the sleep except for accuracy and being faster. All the rest of the sleep moves are stopped by grass types, so they can be predicted a whole lot easier. Gengar doesn't have that. The only thing you can use to counter is being faster or priority, both of which are pretty rare in 1v1 except for pranksters. (At the very least, I rarely see it. that may just be because of my team though)The only exceptions are stuff like Insomnia and Vital spirit, but come on, when was the last time you saw a pokemon that uses those consistently?

I think that the balance of a metagame should be decided based mostly on the highest level of play (big tours such as pl and wcop) and not ladder. Although ladder usage should not be ignored.

I have to disagree with this one. They should be 50/50. Tournaments are extremely important in ranking, but the ladder is what you're going to be playing. Bans shouldn't just cater to the very top players, it should be for the good of the entire meta.

 

[Robyn]

You’re deluding yourself if you think hypnohex isn’t its best and most used set, because of its better-than-OHKO odds against most of the metagame

Perhaps it is true that it's the most common and best (though best is subjective in this case) set, but the way I see it, it's a completely different discussion than that of OHKO moves;

OHKO moves can only ever be used one way. You click a button and you win 30% of the time, excluding Sturdy pokemon.

Gengar can be used in many different ways. Perhaps it isn't most commonly used in those other ways but that doesn't mean it's only use is to be a RNG-win button. If you were to ban Gengar you ban the potential to have something different come out of an inherently clearly not broken Pokemon, some new innovation, and in doing so you're simply stifling the metagame.

I see validity in arguing for a Sleep ban, but banning one aspect of this mechanic is not going to solve the problem, and it's going to cause new and different problems in the process.

 

[Kaif]

Thank you for defending my correlation, Mega Gengar is also inconsistent and provides nothing to the metagame.

You’re deluding yourself if you think hypnohex isn’t its best and most used set, because of its better-than-OHKO odds against most of the metagame

gosh darn it , youre the opposite of intelligent - melo
ah yes I do like myself 42% chance to win the game, shits not even in ur favour if u have to focus blast. Gengar has a 60% / 42% chance to beat whatever it beats. What are the conditions for this? The opponent mustn't have a scarfer that can ohko me, the opponent mustn't have a pokemon that is faster than me.
Moving on, the best set doesn't mean it's the only set you will ever run on the pokemon. I'm not denying that hypnosis hex isn't the best set on gengar, however "inconsistency" is not trash. What Mega-Gengar is, is called "I want to lose." As long as gengar has as atrocious of a winrate as it does, I see no point in its ban.

I think it's a common understanding at this point that people aren't saying MGar is Overpowered, But people saying mega Gengar is Uncompetetive ,

If someone did actually say this, then it speaks alot about their credibility.

i addressed both op and uncompetitive, and the guy that said that is the same guy I bitched about in samples thread so there u go.

wrote this at 3 am dont hurt me

 

[The Official Glyx]

It's not quite as simple as using the base accuracy of the Sleep-inducing moves as if they are definitive flat win percentages. Different matchups have different levels of reliability, as portrayed in my matchups post for Mega Gengar here. Even the likes of Jumpluff and Vivillon have cases where they need certain numbers of turns for the opponent to stay asleep in order to win, namely Charizard, Taunt users, Sound move users, priority attackers like Donphan and Dragonite, and multi hit attackers.

The main aspects that put Gengar, in particular, over any other sleeper are, first, the fact that it has an absurd speed tier of base 130, allowing it to outspeed everything short of the occasional Scarf user with at least 71 Speed and max Speed Lopunny and Zeraora (Pheromosa and Scarf Porygon-Z may outspeed it, but they fail to OHKO it) , and second, the significant damage output it gets from boosted Hex and its Uber-level Special Attack base stat of 170 (for reference, this is just slightly stronger than a Kyurem-Black Outrage). Since Gengar doesn't have the same level of sleep-lock-reliability as Jumpluff and Vivillon do, its win condition often comes down to winning battles immediately after landing Hypnosis through using its overwhelming offensive presence to knock out the opponent with either boosted Hex, Focus Blast, or the occasional Sludge Wave over Substitute if you're willing to sacrifice the ability to fish for Cursed Body as base Gengar.

Consider these calcs:

252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 310-366 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 192-226 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 261-307 (76.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

Gengar is hitting just slightly softer than Marshadow with its own Ghost/Fighting coverage, but bear in mind, Marshadow only gets one SS7SS use, while Gengar can get multiple boosted Hexes in, so long as it lands Hypnosis, as well as the natural difference in certain matchups between physical attacking and special attacking.

All of this is to paint a clear picture that Gengar only needs a turn or two to shred you with its powerful, nigh unstoppable type coverage. The biggest factor in all of this is whether or not it gets those turns, with the focus being on how likely it is to get those turns.

Everyone has their own differing opinions on what is deemed an "acceptable"* point for RNG to act as a setup for a win condition that is deemed "healthy enough"* for a competitive environment, with some believing that absolutely no RNG should be used for this reason, including very unlikely elements such as Bright Powder and Focus Band, while others have enough tolerance for RNG that they believe even accuracy dropping moves (and by proxy, evasion boosting) should be unbanned.

Who's right? Realistically, neither side is. It's not as black-and-white as "RNG is or isn't bad", but rather a shade of gray. We don't allow all RNG elements of Pokemon into competitive environments because then those environments no longer become competitive, but rather, as competitive as a roll of the dice can be. Not even the games, themselves, allow literally everything for competitive play. Conversely, we can't just "remove all RNG", since that opens a can of worms with regards to where the bottom line is, since common overlooked "RNG" also exists in the form of damage rolls, secondary effects, critical hits, etc. "Removing all RNG" simply just isn't feasible without considering the relativity of the discussed RNG to other existing forms of RNG; e.g. a battle isn't being lost because of Bright Powder dodges as much as it will be because of Waterfall flinches.

When considering bans we need to consider the impact of each element relative to the commonly defined "worst offender" of the group. The problem for 1v1, in particular, is that we don't have much reference to compare RNG reliant "uncompetitive"* aspects to, since the main bans on RNG were inherited as a default banlist from OU, with our only instances of considering RNG for bans being the initial suspect test on Jirachi and controversial ban that happened later and the only slightly less controversial Z-Detect suspect. This lacking source of reference has created the common belief that something can only be banned if it is "broken"*, rather than any of the other two alternatives between being "uncompetitive"* or "unhealthy"*.

The above ties into the common mob mentality of something only being capable of becoming "problematic"* to the metagame if it has considerable usage behind it, which simply is not the case. Deoxys-Defense forced nearly every team to have either a fast/priority Taunt user or a super effective nuke like Aegislash or Hoopa-Unbound, but was never able to crack the top 10 in usage, not because it wasn't "problematic"*, but because the 1v1 playerbase that usage statistics are based off is not as consistent as something like OU's usage statistics in order to make reasonable decisions based off of these statistics.

Consider these statistics:
1v1 1630

 Total battles: 344004
 Avg. weight/team: 0.059
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       | 
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | 1    | Charizard-Mega-X   | 14.31176% | 69767  |  9.984% | 23334  | 20.349% | 
 | 2    | Gyarados-Mega      | 12.24190% | 62479  |  8.941% | 18859  | 16.447% | 
 | 3    | Greninja           |  9.49065% | 59564  |  8.524% | 20345  | 17.743% | 
 | 4    | Magearna           |  9.39468% | 35884  |  5.135% | 10389  |  9.060% | 
 | 5    | Zeraora            |  9.28720% | 29074  |  4.160% | 10203  |  8.898% | 
 | 6    | Tapu Lele          |  9.05203% | 30397  |  4.350% | 9655   |  8.420% | 
 | 7    | Dragonite          |  8.35906% | 43416  |  6.213% | 16681  | 14.547% | 
 | 8    | Garchomp           |  7.10710% | 26281  |  3.761% | 9458   |  8.248% | 
 | 9    | Porygon-Z          |  6.53893% | 42696  |  6.110% | 15395  | 13.426% | 
 | 10   | Swampert-Mega      |  6.36117% | 14612  |  2.091% | 5550   |  4.840% |

OU 1825

 Total battles: 2096715
 Avg. weight/team: 0.003
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       | 
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | 1    | Landorus-Therian   | 41.95600% | 1174535 | 28.009% | 1011146 | 31.425% | 
 | 2    | Magearna           | 27.93232% | 525477 | 12.531% | 414981 | 12.897% | 
 | 3    | Greninja-Ash       | 19.50448% | 696264 | 16.604% | 506719 | 15.748% | 
 | 4    | Ferrothorn         | 19.06975% | 670398 | 15.987% | 570745 | 17.738% | 
 | 5    | Kartana            | 18.06925% | 533642 | 12.726% | 389013 | 12.090% | 
 | 6    | Tornadus-Therian   | 17.99445% | 332663 |  7.933% | 260568 |  8.098% | 
 | 7    | Toxapex            | 17.50252% | 411937 |  9.823% | 318170 |  9.888% | 
 | 8    | Tapu Koko          | 16.50569% | 607086 | 14.477% | 482758 | 15.004% | 
 | 9    | Heatran            | 16.38242% | 593029 | 14.142% | 484634 | 15.062% | 
 | 10   | Tapu Lele          | 15.57760% | 352800 |  8.413% | 264934 |  8.234% |

A few red flags should be immediately noticeable here; firstly, the most used Pokemon in 1v1 have considerably less usage than the most used mons in OU, even when considering the fact that OU has twice as many team slots for Pokemon as 1v1 does. This factor effectively means that OU's Usage percentages can be cut in half for the sake of comparison to 1v1, and they would still retain considerably higher percentages on each mon. Second, the least viable Pokemon in OU's top 10 used mons is currently A rank on their respective VR, whereas the least viable Pokemon in 1v1's top 10 is ranked B-, and while I do love Swampert, I don't think anyone would agree to raising it all the way up to A, or even A-. While these two factors don't completely "debunk" the ideology that the best Pokemon are the most used because they're the best, it certainly takes credibility away from it, in the context of 1v1 discussions.

All that said, everyone is still inclined to have their own perspectives on the importance of usage in discussions, and my perspective is that focus should be placed moreso on thorough cases presented for each discussed aspect and each party's rebuttals to points made by their opposition. Despite this, there will almost always be a certain point in discussion where, if neither side concedes, then administrative action needs to be taken in order to quell discussion that won't get anywhere, aka a suspect test**.

Personally, I believe a Mega Gengar suspect test is an ideal place to start, with regards to Sleep, as it is by far the most effective user of it, in the sense of the total number of Pokemon it can beat with at least 40% reliability. If this can't be banned, then that effectively shuts down the entire Sleep debate. Again, I highly suggest you read up on my matchups post here before continuing or beginning to participate in the discussion, and formulate your argument based on the reliability of these win percentages, as well as consider other RNG-based elements with similar win percentages.

*These quoted buzzwords or phrases refer to smogon's loosely founded definitions for each term or phrase (link here)
**This definition is not yet agreed upon by the council/tier leader

 

[Kaif]

It's not quite as simple as using the base accuracy of the Sleep-inducing moves as if they are definitive flat win percentages. Different matchups have different levels of reliability, as portrayed in my matchups post for Mega Gengar here. Even the likes of Jumpluff and Vivillon have cases where they need certain numbers of turns for the opponent to stay asleep in order to win, namely Charizard, Taunt users, Sound move users, priority attackers like Donphan and Dragonite, and multi hit attackers.

The main aspects that put Gengar, in particular, over any other sleeper are, first, the fact that it has an absurd speed tier of base 130, allowing it to outspeed everything short of the occasional Scarf user with at least 71 Speed and max Speed Lopunny and Zeraora (Pheromosa and Scarf Porygon-Z may outspeed it, but they fail to OHKO it) , and second, the significant damage output it gets from boosted Hex and its Uber-level Special Attack base stat of 170 (for reference, this is just slightly stronger than a Kyurem-Black Outrage). Since Gengar doesn't have the same level of sleep-lock-reliability as Jumpluff and Vivillon do, its win condition often comes down to winning battles immediately after landing Hypnosis through using its overwhelming offensive presence to knock out the opponent with either boosted Hex, Focus Blast, or the occasional Sludge Wave over Substitute if you're willing to sacrifice the ability to fish for Cursed Body as base Gengar.

Consider these calcs:

252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 310-366 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 192-226 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 261-307 (76.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

Gengar is hitting just slightly softer than Marshadow with its own Ghost/Fighting coverage, but bear in mind, Marshadow only gets one SS7SS use, while Gengar can get multiple boosted Hexes in, so long as it lands Hypnosis, as well as the natural difference in certain matchups between physical attacking and special attacking.

All of this is to paint a clear picture that Gengar only needs a turn or two to shred you with its powerful, nigh unstoppable type coverage. The biggest factor in all of this is whether or not it gets those turns, with the focus being on how likely it is to get those turns.

Everyone has their own differing opinions on what is deemed an "acceptable"* point for RNG to act as a setup for a win condition that is deemed "healthy enough"* for a competitive environment, with some believing that absolutely no RNG should be used for this reason, including very unlikely elements such as Bright Powder and Focus Band, while others have enough tolerance for RNG that they believe even accuracy dropping moves (and by proxy, evasion boosting) should be unbanned.

Who's right? Realistically, neither side is. It's not as black-and-white as "RNG is or isn't bad", but rather a shade of gray. We don't allow all RNG elements of Pokemon into competitive environments because then those environments no longer become competitive, but rather, as competitive as a roll of the dice can be. Not even the games, themselves, allow literally everything for competitive play. Conversely, we can't just "remove all RNG", since that opens a can of worms with regards to where the bottom line is, since common overlooked "RNG" also exists in the form of damage rolls, secondary effects, critical hits, etc. "Removing all RNG" simply just isn't feasible without considering the relativity of the discussed RNG to other existing forms of RNG; e.g. a battle isn't being lost because of Bright Powder dodges as much as it will be because of Waterfall flinches.

When considering bans we need to consider the impact of each element relative to the commonly defined "worst offender" of the group. The problem for 1v1, in particular, is that we don't have much reference to compare RNG reliant "uncompetitive"* aspects to, since the main bans on RNG were inherited as a default banlist from OU, with our only instances of considering RNG for bans being the initial suspect test on Jirachi and controversial ban that happened later and the only slightly less controversial Z-Detect suspect. This lacking source of reference has created the common belief that something can only be banned if it is "broken"*, rather than any of the other two alternatives between being "uncompetitive"* or "unhealthy"*.

The above ties into the common mob mentality of something only being capable of becoming "problematic"* to the metagame if it has considerable usage behind it, which simply is not the case. Deoxys-Defense forced nearly every team to have either a fast/priority Taunt user or a super effective nuke like Aegislash or Hoopa-Unbound, but was never able to crack the top 10 in usage, not because it wasn't "problematic"*, but because the 1v1 playerbase that usage statistics are based off is not as consistent as something like OU's usage statistics in order to make reasonable decisions based off of these statistics.

Consider these statistics:
1v1 1630

 Total battles: 344004
Avg. weight/team: 0.059
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1    | Charizard-Mega-X   | 14.31176% | 69767  |  9.984% | 23334  | 20.349% |
| 2    | Gyarados-Mega      | 12.24190% | 62479  |  8.941% | 18859  | 16.447% |
| 3    | Greninja           |  9.49065% | 59564  |  8.524% | 20345  | 17.743% |
| 4    | Magearna           |  9.39468% | 35884  |  5.135% | 10389  |  9.060% |
| 5    | Zeraora            |  9.28720% | 29074  |  4.160% | 10203  |  8.898% |
| 6    | Tapu Lele          |  9.05203% | 30397  |  4.350% | 9655   |  8.420% |
| 7    | Dragonite          |  8.35906% | 43416  |  6.213% | 16681  | 14.547% |
| 8    | Garchomp           |  7.10710% | 26281  |  3.761% | 9458   |  8.248% |
| 9    | Porygon-Z          |  6.53893% | 42696  |  6.110% | 15395  | 13.426% |
| 10   | Swampert-Mega      |  6.36117% | 14612  |  2.091% | 5550   |  4.840% |

OU 1825

Total battles: 2096715
Avg. weight/team: 0.003
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1    | Landorus-Therian   | 41.95600% | 1174535 | 28.009% | 1011146 | 31.425% |
| 2    | Magearna           | 27.93232% | 525477 | 12.531% | 414981 | 12.897% |
| 3    | Greninja-Ash       | 19.50448% | 696264 | 16.604% | 506719 | 15.748% |
| 4    | Ferrothorn         | 19.06975% | 670398 | 15.987% | 570745 | 17.738% |
| 5    | Kartana            | 18.06925% | 533642 | 12.726% | 389013 | 12.090% |
| 6    | Tornadus-Therian   | 17.99445% | 332663 |  7.933% | 260568 |  8.098% |
| 7    | Toxapex            | 17.50252% | 411937 |  9.823% | 318170 |  9.888% |
| 8    | Tapu Koko          | 16.50569% | 607086 | 14.477% | 482758 | 15.004% |
| 9    | Heatran            | 16.38242% | 593029 | 14.142% | 484634 | 15.062% |
| 10   | Tapu Lele          | 15.57760% | 352800 |  8.413% | 264934 |  8.234% |

A few red flags should be immediately noticeable here; firstly, the most used Pokemon in 1v1 have considerably less usage than the most used mons in OU, even when considering the fact that OU has twice as many team slots for Pokemon as 1v1 does. This factor effectively means that OU's Usage percentages can be cut in half for the sake of comparison to 1v1, and they would still retain considerably higher percentages on each mon. Second, the least viable Pokemon in OU's top 10 used mons is currently A rank on their respective VR, whereas the least viable Pokemon in 1v1's top 10 is ranked B-, and while I do love Swampert, I don't think anyone would agree to raising it all the way up to A, or even A-. While these two factors don't completely "debunk" the ideology that the best Pokemon are the most used because they're the best, it certainly takes credibility away from it, in the context of 1v1 discussions.

All that said, everyone is still inclined to have their own perspectives on the importance of usage in discussions, and my perspective is that focus should be placed moreso on thorough cases presented for each discussed aspect and each party's rebuttals to points made by their opposition. Despite this, there will almost always be a certain point in discussion where, if neither side concedes, then administrative action needs to be taken in order to quell discussion that won't get anywhere, aka a suspect test**.

Personally, I believe a Mega Gengar suspect test is an ideal place to start, with regards to Sleep, as it is by far the most effective user of it, in the sense of the total number of Pokemon it can beat with at least 40% reliability. If this can't be banned, then that effectively shuts down the entire Sleep debate. Again, I highly suggest you read up on my matchups post here before continuing or beginning to participate in the discussion, and formulate your argument based on the reliability of these win percentages, as well as consider other RNG-based elements with similar win percentages.

*These quoted buzzwords or phrases refer to smogon's loosely founded definitions for each term or phrase (link here)
**This definition is not yet agreed upon by the council/tier leader

Nobody is comparing ou usage to 1v1 usage, they are obviously going to be night and day considering how differently it works. Your point is that Gengar can do almost as much damage as a Marshadow, if so why isn't it anywhere near viable in usage? It's because it's a pokemon that simply does not work outside cheesing. I've been seeing the argument "it doesn't provide anything to the metagame and is unfittable on a normal team whats the use of keeping it." If you think that, then surely we should ban all pokemon that isnt Top 50 usage in the metagame. Anyways, gengar ban discussion is stupid thanks

 

[CashKP]

I made this video where I just spammed Mega Gengar on the ladder for 40 minutes. So you watch this and tell me if you still think Mega Gengar is even worth using.

 

[The Official Glyx]

27:27

I don't know how you can almost directly quote the textbook definition of Uncompetitive and say it shouldn't be banned-

 

[CashKP]

27:27

View attachment 177922

I don't know how you can almost directly quote the textbook definition of Uncompetitive and say it shouldn't be banned-

Very carefully

EDIT - Okay now that I'm not driving. I do think its uncompetitive but I still dont think it should be banned.

Lots of stuff is uncompetitive. I have been saying being frozen should have been taken out of the game forever ago. Scarf Jirachi and ZTwave Togekiss are both uncompetitive but we allow those because they still just arnt that good. I feel like Gengars inconsistently keeps the usage down.

I talked a lot about how Gengar has great matchups and how it just wins versus half the teams. Why is that? Because no one builds with Gengar in mind. And why is that? Because no one uses Gengar because it's just not that good.

I would never being that to actually ladder and I dont think many good ladder players would. Maybe I'll try another video with a different set and see will see how competative it is without sleep.

 

[The Official Glyx]

Very carefully

EDIT - Okay now that I'm not driving. I do think its uncompetitive but I still dont think it should be banned.

Lots of stuff is uncompetitive. I have been saying being frozen should have been taken out of the game forever ago. Scarf Jirachi and ZTwave Togekiss are both uncompetitive but we allow those because they still just arnt that good. I feel like Gengars inconsistently keeps the usage down.

I talked a lot about how Gengar has great matchups and how it just wins versus half the teams. Why is that? Because no one builds with Gengar in mind. And why is that? Because no one uses Gengar because it's just not that good.

I would never being that to actually ladder and I dont think many good ladder players would. Maybe I'll try another video with a different set and see will see how competative it is without sleep.

Inconsistency is the point of RNG-reliant uncompetitive elements, though. They objectively are not good because of their lacking consistency, but they are still definitively uncompetitive by nature of taking the game out of players' hands and making the outcome of the battle more reliant on a roll of the dice than any amount of input from either side.

Take Anything Goes, for example. As a format with literally everything doable ingame allowed, you would imagine it'd be flooded with elements banned in every other format, like OHKO moves, Evasion boosting, Swagger, etc, but in reality, it isn't. For the most part, it's effectively treated like Ubers with Mega Ray and no Species Clause.

Links to AG usage stats if you'd like to look into this yourself:
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-04/gen7anythinggoes-1630.txt
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-04/moveset/gen7anythinggoes-1630.txt

So no, the logic of "out of sight, out of mind = not a problem" does not stand. Just because these RNG-reliant elements have very little usage doesn't mean that they aren't still uncompetitive cheese that takes the game out of players' hands. Ubers and the tiers below will likely never unban these RNG-reliant aspects unless they get nerfed severely like Swagger did, not because these RNG-reliant aspects are definitively "too good", but because they fall into that uncompetitive middle range between being so unreliable that they're almost negligible (Bright Powder, Focus Band, etc) and being so reliable that they become outright broken, rather than uncompetitive (think of something like Breloom with 190 Speed or Whimsicott with Spore).

Ultimately, it just comes down to when we interpret something as falling into that uncompetitive middle range. For me, a mon that has at least a 40% chance to win vs nearly everything in 1v1 definitely falls into that range.

 

[CashKP]

Inconsistency is the point of RNG-reliant uncompetitive elements, though. They objectively are not good because of their lacking consistency, but they are still definitively uncompetitive by nature of taking the game out of players' hands and making the outcome of the battle more reliant on a roll of the dice than any amount of input from either side.

Take Anything Goes, for example. As a format with literally everything doable ingame allowed, you would imagine it'd be flooded with elements banned in every other format, like OHKO moves, Evasion boosting, Swagger, etc, but in reality, it isn't. For the most part, it's effectively treated like Ubers with Mega Ray and no Species Clause.

Links to AG usage stats if you'd like to look into this yourself:
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-04/gen7anythinggoes-1630.txt
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-04/moveset/gen7anythinggoes-1630.txt

So no, the logic of "out of sight, out of mind = not a problem" does not stand. Just because these RNG-reliant elements have very little usage doesn't mean that they aren't still uncompetitive cheese that takes the game out of players' hands. Ubers and the tiers below will likely never unban these RNG-reliant aspects unless they get nerfed severely like Swagger did, not because these RNG-reliant aspects are definitively "too good", but because they fall into that uncompetitive middle range between being so unreliable that they're almost negligible (Bright Powder, Focus Band, etc) and being so reliable that they become outright broken, rather than uncompetitive (think of something like Breloom with 190 Speed or Whimsicott with Spore).

Ultimately, it just comes down to when we interpret something as falling into that uncompetitive middle range. For me, a mon that has at least a 40% chance to win vs nearly everything in 1v1 definitely falls into that range.

I just feel like you ste going back on your word here because I remember you saying something like Jirachi should be unbanned because a 22% chance to get 3 flinches wasent overbearing enough. So are we just saying it's a numbers game?

That would suggest the Okho moves, at 30%, are less broken than Mega Gengar and I doubt anyone, including you, would vote to free those.

But I understand what you are saying with the "out of sight" argument not being valid. I still think it can hold up in 1v1 because of the format but I am on mobile this weekend so I will have to bring that up another time.

I would like to take this in a different direction and ask everyone that if sleep got banned, would we test Darkrai?

 

[The Official Glyx]

I just feel like you ste going back on your word here because I remember you saying something like Jirachi should be unbanned because a 22% chance to get 3 flinches wasent overbearing enough. So are we just saying it's a numbers game?

That would suggest the Okho moves, at 30%, are less broken than Mega Gengar and I doubt anyone, including you, would vote to free those.

But I understand what you are saying with the "out of sight" argument not being valid. I still think it can hold up in 1v1 because of the format but I am on mobile this weekend so I will have to bring that up another time.

I would like to take this in a different direction and ask everyone that if sleep got banned, would we test Darkrai?

Yes, that is exactly what I have been saying. Jirachi (imo) was closer on the range towards the more negligible RNG, since its matchups against other mons were considerably less likely to work in its favor than those of Gengar (Jirachi matchups post here), so much so that they would be more comparable to Gyarados Waterfall flinches. Not to mention, there were plenty of Pokemon that Jirachi just could not break, between Gyarados, Magnezone, Slowbro, Aegislash, Sableye, Whimsicott, etc, while Gengar has significantly fewer reliable or viable counters, and, again, overall better odds of autowinning. Additionally, a good chunk of Jirachi's matchups hardly needed flinches at all, whereas Gengar uses HypnoHex against nearly everything besides whatever it can one shot with Focus Blast or Sludge Wave.

Regarding OHKO moves, I've already said that debating RNG elements isn't as simple as just using the base accuracy and calling it a day. What about OHKO users that can bulk hits? With the extra opportunities to use OHKO moves more than once, that 30% can jump up to much higher odds. The argument is not that Gengar is as good as OHKO moves, but rather that it emulates what OHKO moves do. Whether or not it emulates them effectively enough is something open to interpretation, as I have been saying.

Also rip mobile.

Regarding Darkrai, I'm personally iffy on that one. It's effectively Mega Gengar, but with an item, which allows it to get a lot of kills without even needing Sleep. I'd be willing to at least give it a suspect test so I can see it in action and come to a conclusion for myself, with or without Sleep.

 

[BanZMovesFrom1v1]

View attachment 177452​

With the creation of the Unofficial Metagames subforum, 1v1 now has its own forum! We'll be able to host our projects, discussions, and resources here! This also means we'll be doing a reset with our threads. The former discussion and resource threads in the OMs forum are closed and we'll be starting them over here. Hopefully we can keep this place clean and organised.

As you may have seen, The Immortal has stepped down from 1v1's leadership, and I am replacing him as the new 1v1 Leader. I thank TI for his contributions up until now and I hope I can be a suitable replacement.

This thread will be used for discussion of the 1v1 metagame. This includes discussing metagame trends, strategies you enjoy using, as well as possible suspects. Please be constructive and thoughtful with your posts. One liners will be deleted, and disrespectful behaviour will not be taken lightly.

Have fun!

Z-moves need to be banned, one goes into a fight expecting an actual fight but then your tanky pokemon gets almost one shot by a first turn z move and its not FIGHT anymore, its like they introduced a stronger, 100% accuracy, no recharge needed, nor type immune (depending on the z move) hyper beam and giga impact, in a 1v1, a z move is as similar to making the "fight" one or two turns long depending whether you can actually survive it the first turn, it is absolutely broken and should not be allowed in a 1v1, even if you have SpD, Def or HP EVs it will most certainly lower your health to more than half or close to half at absolute best, specially mons like Hoopa Unbound and Naganadel doing a first turn Z move to OHKO even with type resitance when one just want to have an actual fight with actual moves and strategy. Offensive Z moves (or even non offensive z moves as well if you'll use that as your only defense idc ban those too) should be banned since its absolutely ruining the whole point of a 1v1 fight, which is using one pokemon to have a fight with another pokemon and with Z moves the "fight" part of the equation is removed altogether.

 

[Camden]

Z-moves need to be banned, one goes into a fight expecting an actual fight but then your tanky pokemon gets almost one shot by a first turn z move and its not FIGHT anymore, its like they introduced a stronger, 100% accuracy, no recharge needed, nor type immune (depending on the z move) hyper beam and giga impact, in a 1v1, a z move is as similar to making the "fight" one or two turns long depending whether you can actually survive it the first turn, it is absolutely broken and should not be allowed in a 1v1, even if you have SpD, Def or HP EVs it will most certainly lower your health to more than half or close to half at absolute best, specially mons like Hoopa Unbound and Naganadel doing a first turn Z move to OHKO even with type resitance when one just want to have an actual fight with actual moves and strategy. Offensive Z moves (or even non offensive z moves as well if you'll use that as your only defense idc ban those too) should be banned since its absolutely ruining the whole point of a 1v1 fight, which is using one pokemon to have a fight with another pokemon and with Z moves the "fight" part of the equation is removed altogether.

While I respect your desire to rid 1v1 of Z-Moves, these are not the types of arguments you want to use. In the future I suggest gaining a stronger understanding of the metagame as well as the storied argument for and against Z-Moves before making a post on the topic. It really isn't as simple of saying "ban all Z-Moves", especially this late into the gen.

 

[Kaif]

Z-moves need to be banned, one goes into a fight expecting an actual fight but then your tanky pokemon gets almost one shot by a first turn z move and its not FIGHT anymore, its like they introduced a stronger, 100% accuracy, no recharge needed, nor type immune (depending on the z move) hyper beam and giga impact, in a 1v1, a z move is as similar to making the "fight" one or two turns long depending whether you can actually survive it the first turn, it is absolutely broken and should not be allowed in a 1v1, even if you have SpD, Def or HP EVs it will most certainly lower your health to more than half or close to half at absolute best, specially mons like Hoopa Unbound and Naganadel doing a first turn Z move to OHKO even with type resitance when one just want to have an actual fight with actual moves and strategy. Offensive Z moves (or even non offensive z moves as well if you'll use that as your only defense idc ban those too) should be banned since its absolutely ruining the whole point of a 1v1 fight, which is using one pokemon to have a fight with another pokemon and with Z moves the "fight" part of the equation is removed altogether.

HELLO SIR

As someone who has played the tier for a bit now, I will assure you that z-moves are of no issue! You say that naganadel can ohko first turn with z-moves, however 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 232 HP / 232 SpD Charizard: 280-331 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hm, what is this? Our boy the charizard easily tanks it. The best set for naganadel is actually Choice Specs as it allows you to hit for relatively the same damage +1 252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 232 HP / 232 SpD Charizard: 280-330 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO while boosting its other 3 moves. Now, there are other various examples of how z-moves are not broken but I think they aren't needed here.

"it will most certainly lower your health to more than half or close to half at absolute best" what happens here is that the mon that is getting hit for close to half clicks a move that may or may not be a z-move and then wins! I like zmoves in 1v1 personally, it gives the tier an element of surprise while not creating the tier a zmove click fest.

For now, I recommend playing more 1v1 and seeing for yourself if it truly is broken after a number of games. (thanks quote for sniping me)

 

[BanZMovesFrom1v1]

HELLO SIR

As someone who has played the tier for a bit now, I will assure you that z-moves are of no issue! You say that naganadel can ohko first turn with z-moves, however 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 232 HP / 232 SpD Charizard: 280-331 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hm, what is this? Our boy the charizard easily tanks it. The best set for naganadel is actually Choice Specs as it allows you to hit for relatively the same damage +1 252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 232 HP / 232 SpD Charizard: 280-330 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO while boosting its other 3 moves. Now, there are other various examples of how z-moves are not broken but I think they aren't needed here.

"it will most certainly lower your health to more than half or close to half at absolute best" what happens here is that the mon that is getting hit for close to half clicks a move that may or may not be a z-move and then wins! I like zmoves in 1v1 personally, it gives the tier an element of surprise while not creating the tier a zmove click fest.

For now, I recommend playing more 1v1 and seeing for yourself if it truly is broken after a number of games. (thanks quote for sniping me)

Oh right, so you'd need a Charizard with all HP and SpD EVs so that you can have an 2HKO even though it is neutral damage, if you still think that counts as disproving the fact that Z moves do not do so much damage that having an actual fight is thrown out of the window then I don't know what else to say, additionally this element of surprise amuses exactly no one, I go into a fight expecting you know a fight, and then the enemy uses a Z move on the first turn and its over on the next turn if I'm lucky, I don't see a Hoopa Unbound using a Z move and be like "oh! what a fun surprise" when they easily do an extreme amount of damage even though its the first turn and I lose the chance at a real fight, at least by having their own bracket, it will allow 1v1s to actually have fights which doesn't just make it a brain dead 2HKO (if we're lucky).