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Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
2v2 2v2 Doubles
- Thread starter Mubs
- Start date
Bc 2v2 used to use the ban list from DOU, which banned Beat Up
why did it ban beat up
pqs
Banned deucer.
I am FINALLY nomming the GOAT Stoutland on the 2v2 VR.
So the main set i am basing my nom on is
Stoutland @ Chople Berry / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Atk / 148 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Yawn
- Protect
- Facade
- Wild Charge
This set‘s main aim is to use it’s intimidate + good bulk to make a bulky offensive mon that sleeps things
onto the EVs (can be optimised further later)
The hp + spdef evs let it comfortably sleep Primarina as it does not get 2hko’ed and then 2hko’es it when asleep
108+ Atk Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 244 HP / 172 Def Primarina: 178-210 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Now onto the Moves
Yawn + Protect is a great combo for this mon as it puts mons to sleep using it’s great bulk and utilises it’s partner’s and it’s attacks to whittle the slept mon down when it’s asleep
Facade is a generally good stab move for stoutland as it’s fully accurate and does decent damage to anything, plus it has the added benefit of doubling damage while statused so it isn‘t crippled by burn/toxic/para etc.
Wild Charge is mainly for primarina and it’s generally pretty good coverage as it also 2hko’es urshifu water form which helps when your chople, although that’s not as common
108+ Atk Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 170-202 (49.8 - 59.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Some pretty good options now for this set as moves
Helping hand lets it support it’s teammates better but you have to sacrifice a move for this so it’s prety niche but can be used
Facade can be replace with either strength or take down for more damage input but with strength It doesn’t get the double damage and take down has recoil + not fully accurate.
Now for the item slot-
Chople can be utilised to sleep the likes of urshifu and more
Sitrus can be ran to avoid 2hko’es and is generally a good item
So now i am done explaining the set
I am nomming Stoutland to tier 4/5
In my opinion it generally has more use then stuff like rotom wash and abomasnow in the tier 5
so i would likely make stoutland tier 5
but it also can fit in tier 4 because you can fit it on a team so easily as it pairs well with the great incineroar as well
Now for a replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1161993629-c1u6iaccrigbam6f2r2zh0qu0a24jbppw
will add more later
(also it has some niche sand use but it’s mostly outclassed by excadrill)
Thank You for reading this and please get stoutland on the vr
Krytocon i’m coming for you
So the main set i am basing my nom on is
Stoutland @ Chople Berry / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Atk / 148 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Yawn
- Protect
- Facade
- Wild Charge
This set‘s main aim is to use it’s intimidate + good bulk to make a bulky offensive mon that sleeps things
onto the EVs (can be optimised further later)
The hp + spdef evs let it comfortably sleep Primarina as it does not get 2hko’ed and then 2hko’es it when asleep
108+ Atk Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 244 HP / 172 Def Primarina: 178-210 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Now onto the Moves
Yawn + Protect is a great combo for this mon as it puts mons to sleep using it’s great bulk and utilises it’s partner’s and it’s attacks to whittle the slept mon down when it’s asleep
Facade is a generally good stab move for stoutland as it’s fully accurate and does decent damage to anything, plus it has the added benefit of doubling damage while statused so it isn‘t crippled by burn/toxic/para etc.
Wild Charge is mainly for primarina and it’s generally pretty good coverage as it also 2hko’es urshifu water form which helps when your chople, although that’s not as common
108+ Atk Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 170-202 (49.8 - 59.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Some pretty good options now for this set as moves
Helping hand lets it support it’s teammates better but you have to sacrifice a move for this so it’s prety niche but can be used
Facade can be replace with either strength or take down for more damage input but with strength It doesn’t get the double damage and take down has recoil + not fully accurate.
Now for the item slot-
Chople can be utilised to sleep the likes of urshifu and more
Sitrus can be ran to avoid 2hko’es and is generally a good item
So now i am done explaining the set
I am nomming Stoutland to tier 4/5
In my opinion it generally has more use then stuff like rotom wash and abomasnow in the tier 5
so i would likely make stoutland tier 5
but it also can fit in tier 4 because you can fit it on a team so easily as it pairs well with the great incineroar as well
Now for a replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1161993629-c1u6iaccrigbam6f2r2zh0qu0a24jbppw
will add more later
(also it has some niche sand use but it’s mostly outclassed by excadrill)
Thank You for reading this and please get stoutland on the vr
Krytocon i’m coming for you
it's nom time!
Gardevoir -> Tier 4
Gardevoir functions like a mix between alakazam, necrozma and hatterene, having properties of all three but at least one thing to differentiate itself from each of them:
-It's bulkier than alakazam, allowing it to live some crucial hits like a surf from kingdra (252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Helping Hand Surf vs. 82 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir in Rain: 253-300 (85.1 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO) -- guaranteed 2HKO) or a flare blitz from support incineroar (72 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), which are matchups alakazam straight up loses all of the time.
-It's also faster than necrozma allowing Gerdevoir to theoretically shut it down 1v1 with imprison, while being a fairy type makes it both not weak to dark and gives it fairy stab, which are big advantages over necrozma,
-and while hatterene is bulkier, gardevoir's speed means it does't lose to the likes of dracovish. It also has access to moonblast (in addition to dazzling gleam) which is much stronger than hatterene's spread gleam.
It's speed also crucially allows it to run a scarf set that outspeeds zeraora, while necrozma can speedtie at best.
Trace and Telepathy are also cool unique abilities that can come in handy sometimes.
All in all, gardevoir functions well on specific psyspam teams that appreciate its unique set of traits (also being a fairy type that isn't slow, has access to moonblast, and can outspeed some crucial things), and should therefore be placed in Tier 4 ("...or are only particularly useful for certain team styles.")
Gardevoir -> Tier 4
Gardevoir functions like a mix between alakazam, necrozma and hatterene, having properties of all three but at least one thing to differentiate itself from each of them:
-It's bulkier than alakazam, allowing it to live some crucial hits like a surf from kingdra (252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Helping Hand Surf vs. 82 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir in Rain: 253-300 (85.1 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO) -- guaranteed 2HKO) or a flare blitz from support incineroar (72 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), which are matchups alakazam straight up loses all of the time.
-It's also faster than necrozma allowing Gerdevoir to theoretically shut it down 1v1 with imprison, while being a fairy type makes it both not weak to dark and gives it fairy stab, which are big advantages over necrozma,
-and while hatterene is bulkier, gardevoir's speed means it does't lose to the likes of dracovish. It also has access to moonblast (in addition to dazzling gleam) which is much stronger than hatterene's spread gleam.
It's speed also crucially allows it to run a scarf set that outspeeds zeraora, while necrozma can speedtie at best.
Trace and Telepathy are also cool unique abilities that can come in handy sometimes.
All in all, gardevoir functions well on specific psyspam teams that appreciate its unique set of traits (also being a fairy type that isn't slow, has access to moonblast, and can outspeed some crucial things), and should therefore be placed in Tier 4 ("...or are only particularly useful for certain team styles.")
Choice (Gardevoir) @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Trace / Telepathy
EVs: 82 HP / 174 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Moonblast
- Dazzling Gleam
- Trick
Max Max Imprison LO (Gardevoir) @ Life Orb
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Imprison
- Dazzling Gleam / Moonblast
- Protect
Ability: Trace / Telepathy
EVs: 82 HP / 174 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Moonblast
- Dazzling Gleam
- Trick
Max Max Imprison LO (Gardevoir) @ Life Orb
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Imprison
- Dazzling Gleam / Moonblast
- Protect
Last edited:
Few noms I have with OM Snake going on:
3 -> 2
Rillaboom is the 2nd best setter in the metagame, along with having great bulk, splashability, along with being one of the best answers to psyspam available.
4 -> 2
Seeing more of Primarina I’m convinced that its bulk and general splashability is worth a T2 nom.
3 -> 2
Amazing priority tailwind setter with the bonus of being able to threaten the likes of Amoonguss and Urshifu.
2 -> 3
Not as good as it once was, especially with the usage of Urshifu at an all-time high.
3 -> 4 or 5
Not a good mon, at least not 3 worthy.
By the way, VR Shifts should be tomorrow, so get your noms done soon. Thanks for reading and have a nice day as always,
3 -> 2Rillaboom is the 2nd best setter in the metagame, along with having great bulk, splashability, along with being one of the best answers to psyspam available.
4 -> 2 Seeing more of Primarina I’m convinced that its bulk and general splashability is worth a T2 nom.
3 -> 2Amazing priority tailwind setter with the bonus of being able to threaten the likes of Amoonguss and Urshifu.
2 -> 3Not as good as it once was, especially with the usage of Urshifu at an all-time high.
3 -> 4 or 5Not a good mon, at least not 3 worthy.
Terrakion
Chandelure
Durant
Rotom-Wash
Durant
Chandelure
Durant
Rotom-Wash
Durant
Abomasnow
Haxorus
Conkeldurr
Corviknight
Drednaw
Haxorus
Weavile
Torracat
Silvally
Vikavolt
Haxorus
Conkeldurr
Corviknight
Drednaw
Haxorus
Weavile
Torracat
Silvally
Vikavolt
By the way, VR Shifts should be tomorrow, so get your noms done soon. Thanks for reading and have a nice day as always,
are you devaluing non-multiples of four because they don't conform to society's natural EV laws concerning the divisibility of 4?
if you are, fair enough.
snomination:
Goodra Tier 3 -> Tier 2/2.5
Easily one of the best weather counterplays in the metagame as well as being a specially defensive pinkish blob outclassed only by the master itself. Extremely useful typing helping it resist a lotta stuff and enough special attack and coverage to not just be a complete wall. It can also beat Incineroar and the monkee team (the priority when building).
it's smom time!
Tyranitar -> Tier 2
Tyranitar is currently placed in tier 2.5 thanks to its ability to set sand for strong abusers aka excadrill, but i feel that it has capabilities to do more than that. particularly, it is immune to prankster moves that beats most unprepared teams, easily beating sableye and even whimsicott due to its amazing special bulk in sand letting it not take much from its dual stabs. it also helps with jail mew with an extra taunt (screw fake out but you can have 2 taunt users), and has a few utility moves such as rock tomb and snarl. last but not least, having a slower weather setter than pelipper eases the rain matchup, not getting 2hko’d by pelipper’s specs boosted scald (252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) shows how bulky this thing is. although torkoal sun is slower, you naturally resist it so it shouldn’t be a hard mu. i know all these play styles have ways to overcome tyranitar, but at least it’s not that easy to lose and these are matters of in game counterplay.
All in all, tyranitar functions well not only on sand teams, but also balance teams that needs a form of counterplay to common strategies like prankster, jail mew etc., and should therefore be placed in Tier 2 ("...generally strong and can easily be placed on a variety of teams.")
Tyranitar -> Tier 2
Tyranitar is currently placed in tier 2.5 thanks to its ability to set sand for strong abusers aka excadrill, but i feel that it has capabilities to do more than that. particularly, it is immune to prankster moves that beats most unprepared teams, easily beating sableye and even whimsicott due to its amazing special bulk in sand letting it not take much from its dual stabs. it also helps with jail mew with an extra taunt (screw fake out but you can have 2 taunt users), and has a few utility moves such as rock tomb and snarl. last but not least, having a slower weather setter than pelipper eases the rain matchup, not getting 2hko’d by pelipper’s specs boosted scald (252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) shows how bulky this thing is. although torkoal sun is slower, you naturally resist it so it shouldn’t be a hard mu. i know all these play styles have ways to overcome tyranitar, but at least it’s not that easy to lose and these are matters of in game counterplay.
All in all, tyranitar functions well not only on sand teams, but also balance teams that needs a form of counterplay to common strategies like prankster, jail mew etc., and should therefore be placed in Tier 2 ("...generally strong and can easily be placed on a variety of teams.")
tier 2 I assume > tier 1 this mon is probably a contender for the best mon if not the best mon in the tier, the ability is broken, the coverage is broken. put it with a fake out user (zeraora) / tailwind user (talon) / follow me (toge amoon) and ur gonna be farming wins with no difficulty at all
tier 2 > tier 1fastest fake out user in the game and pairs very well with things like ace urshifu rillaboom list goes on
tier 2.5 > tier 2fits on normal teams not just sun, its like urshifu if u were faster and had fire/poison/fighting stab instead
tier 3 > tier 2good ability, good movepool, does well with follow me / tailwind support for weakness policy type shit
realised halfway through making this that tier 4 and 5 are atrocious, i think u could easily remove most of tier 4 and the entirety of tier 5 lol. mubs out
VR Shifts are live! Here's what's changed:
-> 3
-> 2
-> 4
-> 4
-> 5
-> 5
-> UR
-> UR
-> UR
-> 5
-> 5
-> 5
-> 2
-> 2
-> 3
-> 4
-> 1
-> 1
-> 2
-> 2
-> UR
-> 5
-> UR
-> UR
-> UR
-> 5
-> 5
As the OM Snake Draft regular season is about to end, here are the full stats so far:
OMSD Weeks 1-4
Considering Urshifu's dominance of the scene in OMSD, whar are you thoughts on the pokemon's place in the metagame? Is it worth suspecting, or is it just having a good tour? As always thanks for reading and have a nice day.
-> 3 -> 2 -> 4 -> 4 -> 5 -> 5 -> UR -> UR -> UR -> 5 -> 5 -> 5 -> 2 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 1 -> 1 -> 2 -> 2 -> UR -> 5 -> UR -> UR -> UR -> 5 -> 5As the OM Snake Draft regular season is about to end, here are the full stats so far:
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Urshifu-* | 52 | 50.00% | 53.85% |
| 2 | Zeraora | 29 | 27.88% | 51.72% |
| 3 | Incineroar | 22 | 21.15% | 45.45% |
| 4 | Talonflame | 20 | 19.23% | 55.00% |
| 5 | Amoonguss | 16 | 15.38% | 56.25% |
| 6 | Rillaboom | 15 | 14.42% | 60.00% |
| 6 | Weezing-Galar | 15 | 14.42% | 46.67% |
| 8 | Cinderace | 13 | 12.50% | 69.23% |
| 8 | Primarina | 13 | 12.50% | 38.46% |
| 10 | Excadrill | 12 | 11.54% | 50.00% |
| 11 | Necrozma | 11 | 10.58% | 81.82% |
| 12 | Togekiss | 9 | 8.65% | 77.78% |
| 12 | Venusaur | 9 | 8.65% | 66.67% |
| 12 | Volcarona | 9 | 8.65% | 55.56% |
| 15 | Ninetales | 8 | 7.69% | 62.50% |
| 15 | Whimsicott | 8 | 7.69% | 50.00% |
| 15 | Dracovish | 8 | 7.69% | 37.50% |
| 15 | Sylveon | 8 | 7.69% | 37.50% |
| 19 | Alakazam | 7 | 6.73% | 57.14% |
| 19 | Dragapult | 7 | 6.73% | 57.14% |
| 19 | Aegislash | 7 | 6.73% | 28.57% |
| 19 | Mew | 7 | 6.73% | 14.29% |
| 23 | Blastoise | 6 | 5.77% | 83.33% |
| 23 | Chansey | 6 | 5.77% | 50.00% |
| 25 | Indeedee-F | 5 | 4.81% | 60.00% |
| 25 | Tyranitar | 5 | 4.81% | 40.00% |
| 25 | Porygon2 | 5 | 4.81% | 40.00% |
| 25 | Mandibuzz | 5 | 4.81% | 40.00% |
| 25 | Accelgor | 5 | 4.81% | 40.00% |
| 25 | Kommo-o | 5 | 4.81% | 40.00% |
| 25 | Terrakion | 5 | 4.81% | 20.00% |
| 32 | Charizard | 4 | 3.85% | 75.00% |
| 32 | Magnezone | 4 | 3.85% | 25.00% |
| 34 | Scizor | 3 | 2.88% | 66.67% |
| 34 | Inteleon | 3 | 2.88% | 66.67% |
| 34 | Gastrodon | 3 | 2.88% | 66.67% |
| 34 | Kyurem | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 34 | Sableye | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 34 | Snorlax | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 34 | Togedemaru | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 34 | Gyarados | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 42 | Corviknight | 2 | 1.92% | 100.00% |
| 42 | Azumarill | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 42 | Milotic | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 42 | Ninetales-Alola | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 42 | Kingdra | 2 | 1.92% | 0.00% |
| 42 | Goodra | 2 | 1.92% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Dusclops | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 48 | Darmanitan | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 48 | Marowak-Alola | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 48 | Hatterene | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 48 | Swoobat | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Slowbro | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Mimikyu | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Drapion | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Indeedee | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Alcremie | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Clefable | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Diggersby | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Duraludon | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Araquanid | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Pincurchin | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Raichu-Alola | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Hawlucha | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Darmanitan-Galar | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Pelipper | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Arcanine | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
Code:
+ ---- + -------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 2 | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + -------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Urshifu-* / Zeraora | 19 | 18.27% | 52.63% |
| 2 | Urshifu-* / Talonflame | 18 | 17.31% | 61.11% |
| 3 | Talonflame / Zeraora | 14 | 13.46% | 64.29% |
| 4 | Excadrill / Talonflame | 10 | 9.62% | 50.00% |
| 4 | Urshifu-* / Amoonguss | 10 | 9.62% | 40.00% |
| 6 | Togekiss / Cinderace | 8 | 7.69% | 75.00% |
| 6 | Venusaur / Ninetales | 8 | 7.69% | 62.50% |
| 6 | Urshifu-* / Excadrill | 8 | 7.69% | 62.50% |
| 6 | Excadrill / Zeraora | 8 | 7.69% | 62.50% |
| 10 | Amoonguss / Zeraora | 7 | 6.73% | 57.14% |
| 10 | Volcarona / Urshifu-* | 7 | 6.73% | 57.14% |
| 10 | Talonflame / Amoonguss | 7 | 6.73% | 42.86% |
| 13 | Volcarona / Weezing-Galar | 6 | 5.77% | 83.33% |
| 13 | Togekiss / Rillaboom | 6 | 5.77% | 83.33% |
| 13 | Necrozma / Incineroar | 6 | 5.77% | 66.67% |
| 13 | Urshifu-* / Rillaboom | 6 | 5.77% | 66.67% |
| 13 | Urshifu-* / Whimsicott | 6 | 5.77% | 50.00% |
| 13 | Incineroar / Dragapult | 6 | 5.77% | 50.00% |
| 13 | Urshifu-* / Sylveon | 6 | 5.77% | 33.33% |
| 13 | Urshifu-* / Primarina | 6 | 5.77% | 16.67% |
| 21 | Necrozma / Amoonguss | 5 | 4.81% | 80.00% |
| 21 | Urshifu-* / Venusaur | 5 | 4.81% | 80.00% |
| 21 | Togekiss / Urshifu-* | 5 | 4.81% | 80.00% |
| 21 | Cinderace / Rillaboom | 5 | 4.81% | 80.00% |
| 21 | Urshifu-* / Cinderace | 5 | 4.81% | 80.00% |
| 21 | Incineroar / Rillaboom | 5 | 4.81% | 60.00% |
| 21 | Amoonguss / Primarina | 5 | 4.81% | 60.00% |
| 21 | Mandibuzz / Sylveon | 5 | 4.81% | 40.00% |
| 21 | Weezing-Galar / Dracovish | 5 | 4.81% | 40.00% |
| 21 | Weezing-Galar / Terrakion | 5 | 4.81% | 20.00% |
| 21 | Talonflame / Primarina | 5 | 4.81% | 20.00% |
| 32 | Weezing-Galar / Urshifu-* | 4 | 3.85% | 100.00% |
| 32 | Urshifu-* / Blastoise | 4 | 3.85% | 100.00% |
| 32 | Necrozma / Urshifu-* | 4 | 3.85% | 75.00% |
| 32 | Urshifu-* / Ninetales | 4 | 3.85% | 75.00% |
| 32 | Urshifu-* / Charizard | 4 | 3.85% | 75.00% |
| 32 | Charizard / Ninetales | 4 | 3.85% | 75.00% |
| 32 | Charizard / Venusaur | 4 | 3.85% | 75.00% |
| 32 | Incineroar / Zeraora | 4 | 3.85% | 50.00% |
| 32 | Zeraora / Porygon2 | 4 | 3.85% | 50.00% |
| 32 | Weezing-Galar / Chansey | 4 | 3.85% | 50.00% |
| 32 | Indeedee-F / Urshifu-* | 4 | 3.85% | 50.00% |
| 32 | Zeraora / Primarina | 4 | 3.85% | 50.00% |
| 32 | Urshifu-* / Mew | 4 | 3.85% | 25.00% |
| 32 | Alakazam / Urshifu-* | 4 | 3.85% | 25.00% |
| 32 | Terrakion / Aegislash | 4 | 3.85% | 25.00% |
| 32 | Terrakion / Dracovish | 4 | 3.85% | 25.00% |
| 32 | Weezing-Galar / Aegislash | 4 | 3.85% | 25.00% |
| 32 | Aegislash / Dracovish | 4 | 3.85% | 25.00% |
| 32 | Excadrill / Tyranitar | 4 | 3.85% | 25.00% |
| 32 | Weezing-Galar / Incineroar | 4 | 3.85% | 25.00% |
| 52 | Incineroar / Alakazam | 3 | 2.88% | 100.00% |
| 52 | Volcarona / Blastoise | 3 | 2.88% | 100.00% |
| 52 | Weezing-Galar / Blastoise | 3 | 2.88% | 100.00% |
| 52 | Incineroar / Indeedee-F | 3 | 2.88% | 66.67% |
| 52 | Accelgor / Zeraora | 3 | 2.88% | 66.67% |
| 52 | Kommo-o / Zeraora | 3 | 2.88% | 66.67% |
| 52 | Accelgor / Porygon2 | 3 | 2.88% | 66.67% |
| 52 | Kommo-o / Porygon2 | 3 | 2.88% | 66.67% |
| 52 | Accelgor / Kommo-o | 3 | 2.88% | 66.67% |
| 52 | Incineroar / Amoonguss | 3 | 2.88% | 66.67% |
| 52 | Tyranitar / Primarina | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Urshifu-* / Mandibuzz | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Mandibuzz / Mew | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Sylveon / Mew | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Urshifu-* / Magnezone | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Alakazam / Magnezone | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Sylveon / Magnezone | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Alakazam / Sylveon | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Zeraora / Togedemaru | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Incineroar / Togedemaru | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Dragapult / Togedemaru | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Dragapult / Zeraora | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Weezing-Galar / Gyarados | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Incineroar / Chansey | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Gyarados / Chansey | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Incineroar / Gyarados | 3 | 2.88% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Volcarona / Zeraora | 3 | 2.88% | 0.00% |
| 79 | Cinderace / Primarina | 2 | 1.92% | 100.00% |
| 79 | Alakazam / Dragapult | 2 | 1.92% | 100.00% |
| 79 | Alakazam / Rillaboom | 2 | 1.92% | 100.00% |
| 79 | Dragapult / Rillaboom | 2 | 1.92% | 100.00% |
| 79 | Necrozma / Rillaboom | 2 | 1.92% | 100.00% |
| 79 | Corviknight / Primarina | 2 | 1.92% | 100.00% |
| 79 | Amoonguss / Corviknight | 2 | 1.92% | 100.00% |
| 79 | Necrozma / Corviknight | 2 | 1.92% | 100.00% |
| 79 | Necrozma / Primarina | 2 | 1.92% | 100.00% |
| 79 | Alakazam / Indeedee-F | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Whimsicott / Dracovish | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Scizor / Incineroar | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Sylveon / Rillaboom | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Sylveon / Chansey | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Mandibuzz / Rillaboom | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Mandibuzz / Chansey | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Chansey / Rillaboom | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Necrozma / Indeedee-F | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Incineroar / Urshifu-* | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Volcarona / Whimsicott | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Sableye / Snorlax | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Ninetales / Snorlax | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Venusaur / Snorlax | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Sableye / Ninetales | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Sableye / Venusaur | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Amoonguss / Azumarill | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Incineroar / Azumarill | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Necrozma / Azumarill | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Cinderace / Ninetales | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Cinderace / Venusaur | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Togekiss / Ninetales | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Togekiss / Venusaur | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Aegislash / Kyurem | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Kyurem / Cinderace | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Kyurem / Milotic | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Aegislash / Cinderace | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Aegislash / Milotic | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Cinderace / Milotic | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Ninetales-Alola / Tyranitar | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Tyranitar / Inteleon | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Ninetales-Alola / Excadrill | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Excadrill / Inteleon | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Ninetales-Alola / Inteleon | 2 | 1.92% | 50.00% |
| 79 | Urshifu-* / Kingdra | 2 | 1.92% | 0.00% |
| 79 | Zeraora / Rillaboom | 2 | 1.92% | 0.00% |
| 79 | Incineroar / Goodra | 2 | 1.92% | 0.00% |
| 79 | Talonflame / Tyranitar | 2 | 1.92% | 0.00% |
| 79 | Excadrill / Primarina | 2 | 1.92% | 0.00% |
| 79 | Incineroar / Accelgor | 2 | 1.92% | 0.00% |
| 79 | Volcarona / Primarina | 2 | 1.92% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Alakazam / Zeraora | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Indeedee-F / Zeraora | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Tyranitar / Dusclops | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Dusclops / Primarina | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Cinderace / Dusclops | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Tyranitar / Cinderace | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Scizor / Whimsicott | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Whimsicott | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Scizor / Dracovish | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Dracovish | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Volcarona / Chansey | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Chansey / Dracovish | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Volcarona / Dracovish | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Necrozma / Inteleon | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Inteleon | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Amoonguss / Inteleon | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Weezing-Galar / Whimsicott | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Whimsicott / Darmanitan | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Amoonguss / Whimsicott | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Urshifu-* / Darmanitan | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Amoonguss / Darmanitan | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Gastrodon / Necrozma | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Gastrodon / Zeraora | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Gastrodon / Urshifu-* | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Necrozma / Zeraora | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Scizor / Blastoise | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Scizor / Necrozma | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Scizor / Rillaboom | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Necrozma / Blastoise | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Blastoise / Rillaboom | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Necrozma / Togekiss | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Togekiss | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Necrozma / Whimsicott | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Talonflame / Whimsicott | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Necrozma / Talonflame | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Marowak-Alola / Hatterene | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Urshifu-* / Marowak-Alola | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Indeedee-F / Marowak-Alola | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Urshifu-* / Hatterene | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Indeedee-F / Hatterene | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Zeraora / Cinderace | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Amoonguss / Cinderace | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Talonflame / Blastoise | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Blastoise / Venusaur | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Talonflame / Venusaur | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Togekiss / Dragapult | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Gastrodon / Togekiss | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Gastrodon / Dragapult | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Dragapult / Cinderace | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Gastrodon / Cinderace | 1 | 0.96% | 100.00% |
| 129 | Kyurem / Mew | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Urshifu-* / Kyurem | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Kyurem / Primarina | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Primarina / Mew | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Urshifu-* / Porygon2 | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Amoonguss / Porygon2 | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Urshifu-* / Sableye | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Sableye / Whimsicott | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Kingdra / Sableye | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Kingdra / Whimsicott | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Swoobat / Rillaboom | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Dracovish / Rillaboom | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Swoobat / Dracovish | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Swoobat / Zeraora | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Zeraora / Dracovish | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Slowbro | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Goodra / Slowbro | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Slowbro / Mimikyu | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Mimikyu | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Goodra / Mimikyu | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Blastoise / Mew | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Blastoise / Snorlax | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Drapion / Blastoise | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Snorlax / Mew | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Drapion / Mew | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Drapion / Snorlax | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Whimsicott / Indeedee | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Volcarona / Indeedee | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Urshifu-* / Indeedee | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Alcremie / Clefable | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Alcremie | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Alcremie / Rillaboom | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Clefable | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Clefable / Rillaboom | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Alakazam / Kommo-o | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Indeedee-F / Kommo-o | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Urshifu-* / Kommo-o | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Mew | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Goodra / Rillaboom | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Mew / Rillaboom | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Goodra / Mew | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Volcarona / Mew | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Zeraora / Mew | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Weezing-Galar / Mew | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Weezing-Galar / Zeraora | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Diggersby / Duraludon | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Diggersby / Whimsicott | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Diggersby / Cinderace | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Duraludon / Whimsicott | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Duraludon / Cinderace | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Cinderace / Whimsicott | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Aegislash / Zeraora | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Urshifu-* / Aegislash | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Aegislash / Rillaboom | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Weezing-Galar / Porygon2 | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Weezing-Galar / Araquanid | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Terrakion / Porygon2 | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Terrakion / Araquanid | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Araquanid / Porygon2 | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Raichu-Alola / Pincurchin | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Hawlucha / Pincurchin | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Gastrodon / Pincurchin | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Raichu-Alola / Hawlucha | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Gastrodon / Raichu-Alola | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Gastrodon / Hawlucha | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Dragapult / Magnezone | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Kommo-o / Dragapult | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Magnezone | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Kommo-o / Magnezone | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Kommo-o | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Accelgor / Primarina | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Scizor / Accelgor | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Primarina | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Scizor / Primarina | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Accelgor / Darmanitan-Galar | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Incineroar / Darmanitan-Galar | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Weezing-Galar / Darmanitan-Galar | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Weezing-Galar / Accelgor | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Urshifu-* / Pelipper | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Pelipper / Amoonguss | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Pelipper / Kingdra | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Kingdra / Amoonguss | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Arcanine / Whimsicott | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Urshifu-* / Dracovish | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Arcanine / Dracovish | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Urshifu-* / Arcanine | 1 | 0.96% | 0.00% |Considering Urshifu's dominance of the scene in OMSD, whar are you thoughts on the pokemon's place in the metagame? Is it worth suspecting, or is it just having a good tour? As always thanks for reading and have a nice day.
pqs
Banned deucer.
Mubs approved this
Lkjc and I are hosting 2v2 World Cup on discord, here is the link to the server: https://discord.gg/4tMyfcb
Lkjc and I are hosting 2v2 World Cup on discord, here is the link to the server: https://discord.gg/4tMyfcb
Ok so let's actually talk about Urshifu. It is one of the best pokemon in the metagame, tier 1 for sure. However I do not think that it's banworthy, in my opinion it's in the same tier as psyspam where yes it's powerful but you just need to bring counters to it. Let's first talk about its positive traits though and explain why they're not overbearing:
The team preview dilemma:
In team preview, you can't actually see which Urshifu the opponent has, which would be an issue if Urshifu-Rapid-Strike wasn't clearly inferior. It still loses to basically all the same counters (see below), while now also losing to pokemon such as amoongus, and therefore has no good reason to be used other than the somewhat predictable surprise factor. This also means that if for some reason Urshifu does get banned (crazier stuff happened in the past), Rapid-Strike should 100% get spared.
Unseen Fists:
This is the main thing people complain about (To those unaware, unseen fists allows Urshifu to hit through (not break like feint) Protect with contact moves). Now it's usually easy to predict the target of Urshifu and just not protect that mon. The main issue is that when pairing it with a Fake Out user it create immense pressure because protecting against Fake Out is pretty risky, although to actually abuse that both mons would have to double into one mon letting the other one do whatever it wants (because it sure isn't protecting). This is a top tier strat, but can be dealt with in multiple ways, see below.
The main thing that holds back Urshifu is it's awful SpDef. Even if defensive checks are hard to find, any fast special attacker can outright kill it (especially with a fairy move, but that's not even necessary), if you can deal with fake out. Even roseli berry usually doesn't actually save Urshifu from being knocked out by like Scarf Gardevoir or Helping Hand Alakazam's spread Dazzling Gleam (this is where it's different from Kyub in BW, while both mons are, to an extent, unwallable, Urshifu can be offensively checked quite easily, while Kyub's HP stat means it can potentially live anything thrown at it). It's speed tier, while solid, is comfortably low enough for many good special attackers to straight up outspeed&ohko it. Scarf Urshifu is usable for the surprise factor, but can get into impossible and exploitable move dilemmas when facing something like Primarina + Steel Type.
Because this is 2v2, I will split up the counters section:
1v1 counters:
-Any faster special attacker (Alakazam, Keldeo, etc., specifically Comfey because triage draining kiss is funny).
-Any fairy type that can take a hit (Any fairy type).
That's already many, many pokemon, with a high chance of one of those already being on a team.
2v2 counters (to Urshifu + Fake Out user):
-Weezing-Galar: Weezing-G is the hardest a counter can get. It disables Unseen Fists, can very, very comfortably live Iron Head (which not even all Urshifu run because of the necessity of CC, Wicked Blow, Poison Jab and Protect), walls any other move Urshifu has, and easily kills it in return with a fairy move.
-Psychic Surge (Indeedee-F): Psychic terrain disables Fake Out, and indeedee is guaranteed to live at least one hit from Urshifu, meaning it can click follow me at least once and let it's Partner kill Urshifu with no fear of fake out (Sometimes it's worth killing Urshifu's partner first, like if it's Indeedee + Zam facing Urshifu + Zera).
-Just faking out Urshifu T1:
People talking like this isn't a reliable and easy counterplay: Any mon with Fake Out + Any 1v1 counter to urshifu (see above) will usually beat any Urshi Fake Out cheese by just Faking Out Urshifu t1: If the opponent's fake out user does not fake out your Urshifu counter well then Urshifu just dies, and if they do then T1 is just wasted and you can keep playing without the fear of fake out.
Additionally, follow me users that can take Urshifu's hits (such as togekiss) can completely stuff it if it lacks the right partner.
Overall, while Urshifu is definitely a very good mon, I do not think it's at all banworthy as multiple different ways to counter both it and the combination of it and fake out exist within the metagame.
The team preview dilemma:
In team preview, you can't actually see which Urshifu the opponent has, which would be an issue if Urshifu-Rapid-Strike wasn't clearly inferior. It still loses to basically all the same counters (see below), while now also losing to pokemon such as amoongus, and therefore has no good reason to be used other than the somewhat predictable surprise factor. This also means that if for some reason Urshifu does get banned (crazier stuff happened in the past), Rapid-Strike should 100% get spared.
Unseen Fists:
This is the main thing people complain about (To those unaware, unseen fists allows Urshifu to hit through (not break like feint) Protect with contact moves). Now it's usually easy to predict the target of Urshifu and just not protect that mon. The main issue is that when pairing it with a Fake Out user it create immense pressure because protecting against Fake Out is pretty risky, although to actually abuse that both mons would have to double into one mon letting the other one do whatever it wants (because it sure isn't protecting). This is a top tier strat, but can be dealt with in multiple ways, see below.
The main thing that holds back Urshifu is it's awful SpDef. Even if defensive checks are hard to find, any fast special attacker can outright kill it (especially with a fairy move, but that's not even necessary), if you can deal with fake out. Even roseli berry usually doesn't actually save Urshifu from being knocked out by like Scarf Gardevoir or Helping Hand Alakazam's spread Dazzling Gleam (this is where it's different from Kyub in BW, while both mons are, to an extent, unwallable, Urshifu can be offensively checked quite easily, while Kyub's HP stat means it can potentially live anything thrown at it). It's speed tier, while solid, is comfortably low enough for many good special attackers to straight up outspeed&ohko it. Scarf Urshifu is usable for the surprise factor, but can get into impossible and exploitable move dilemmas when facing something like Primarina + Steel Type.
Because this is 2v2, I will split up the counters section:
1v1 counters:
-Any faster special attacker (Alakazam, Keldeo, etc., specifically Comfey because triage draining kiss is funny).
-Any fairy type that can take a hit (Any fairy type).
That's already many, many pokemon, with a high chance of one of those already being on a team.
2v2 counters (to Urshifu + Fake Out user):
-Weezing-Galar: Weezing-G is the hardest a counter can get. It disables Unseen Fists, can very, very comfortably live Iron Head (which not even all Urshifu run because of the necessity of CC, Wicked Blow, Poison Jab and Protect), walls any other move Urshifu has, and easily kills it in return with a fairy move.
-Psychic Surge (Indeedee-F): Psychic terrain disables Fake Out, and indeedee is guaranteed to live at least one hit from Urshifu, meaning it can click follow me at least once and let it's Partner kill Urshifu with no fear of fake out (Sometimes it's worth killing Urshifu's partner first, like if it's Indeedee + Zam facing Urshifu + Zera).
-Just faking out Urshifu T1:
People talking like this isn't a reliable and easy counterplay: Any mon with Fake Out + Any 1v1 counter to urshifu (see above) will usually beat any Urshi Fake Out cheese by just Faking Out Urshifu t1: If the opponent's fake out user does not fake out your Urshifu counter well then Urshifu just dies, and if they do then T1 is just wasted and you can keep playing without the fear of fake out.
Additionally, follow me users that can take Urshifu's hits (such as togekiss) can completely stuff it if it lacks the right partner.
Overall, while Urshifu is definitely a very good mon, I do not think it's at all banworthy as multiple different ways to counter both it and the combination of it and fake out exist within the metagame.
Last edited:
D2TheW
Amadán
Heyo, I'm back with another run through and explanation of my votes on the recent noms.
:Urshifu-Single-Strike: -1 This thing is immensely threatening in the current meta with plenty of mons that can support it like zera and indeedee. Great stabs to threaten the likes of Incineroar and Mew and good coverage options beside that. Unseen fist synergizes incredibly well with fake out. Calls for a suspect are premature as it's special frailty and mediocre speed tier leave it struggling with the likes of mienshao and mons you'd want a dark type to beat such as Alakazam. Still a ridiculous threat when played right and fully deserving of t1
- 4 -1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Chople Berry Incineroar: 109-129 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO :( this meta just ain't kind to ol aegi. Incin and Urshifu SS along with every weather other than hail dumpster the sword. It's unique typing and good stats means it can fill holes on teams and it's ability to be a defensive and offensive monster means it has a place in the meta but it ain't a big place.
- 2 I've been using this mon a lot and it's very solid. Solos kingdra rain, scares incin to death, variable coverage to cover checks and strong enough to cover neutral targets.
- UR Goodnight sweet prince. Mienshao outclasses this in every meaningful way.
- 4 Speaking of outclassed. Every time I put this on a team I wish it was Incineroar. Being weak to fairy sucks, being 4x weak to fairy is just awful. A rock resistance instead of a rock weakness would be nice in a meta with more than one decent rock type. It works on certain if you already have a fire like volc, or other situational cases. It will get the job done most of the time but incin probably would get the same job done better.
- 5 Urshifu RS but special, very strong but poor meta mus, fits fine in t5
- 5 Another half decent mon without a particularly defined place in the meta. Unique defensive and offensive traits mean it still fits in the meta in some way but it's not a big role.
- UR Speed tier doesn't translate to any particular niche and pure fire typing hinders more than it helps.
- UR kingdra is king and this thing has no niche.
- 5 Solid tailwind mon + set up threat with bulk up. Solid mon.
- 5 It's fine Lkjc , it can run a decent variety of sets and they're all fine.
- UR sand is already meh, but Exca does it far better than anything else. Yawn sets waste a turn and normal has little defensive or offensive utility in this meta unless they have say, 160 HP and 110 in atk and SpDef.
- 5 Beginning to think Vrji has a thing for psychic fairy types. I'm sceptical on this one but he assures me it works and it seems functional enough.
- 2 strong af offensive threat, bulky, fake out support. Just really good.
- 2 Man this Mon seems shit on paper but it provides fantastic tailwind support, has a good offensive typing for the meta and is decently strong despite it's atk stat.
- 2 Not giving up on my boy. Almost unrivaled as a special tank, able to dish out big hits while taking them in return. Urshifu's prominence sucks but lax never used any item religiously and chople fits well enough.
- 4 In the same boat as scrafty where I just prefer using incin most of the time. Like scrafty, a different typing gives somewhat of a niche and prankster status moves are also quite useful.
- 3 Goodra continues to do what it's done all gen. Solid special wall with decent attacking potential and a decent typing in the meta. Very solid mon.
- 2.5 Sand isn't bad RN but ttar is still very tied to sand teams with minimal use outside of the archetype. I've messed around with it outside of sand but it's pretty underwhelming and the fact that you're basically forced to run chople and a shitton of bulk to be even usable is a massive pain. Still a decent mon but not worthy of t2.
- 2 Ok this one might be a bit contentious. Zera is damn good and one of the best in t2 imo. However I don't think it's t1 worthy. If there was a tier between 1 and 2 it would fit there but there isn't and I'm leaning towards t2 for now. Still very good tho.
- 2 No longer exclusively used on sun, offensive monster because libero be like that. Perfect fit in t2.
- 2 GOAT mon. I fucking love this thing. It's winrate in snake was absurd, it's got a shitton of sets and they're all good. Incineroar used to be a death sentence but power herb meteor beam, a set I've spammed since no johns, absolutely destroys the cat. Great mon, absolutely deserving of t2.
- UR Hail is bad and if you must use it, Ninetales gets veil up before dying.
- 5 good offensive threat that requires a lot of support. Not great but not unusable.
- UR Slow, not bulky enough, typing isn't great for the meta. Trick Room has better options.
- UR Very gimmicky mon. Explosion and preview uncertainty are fun but ultimately gimmicks and not great gimmicks at that.
- UR Weavile sucks, I explained why in my last one of these, go read that.
- 5 Decent offensive threat that requires support, incin dunks on it but it's still usable (just)
- 5 I'm just slowly dropping this further and further down because, to be frank, I think this mon is awful. If you want a steel bug type, scizor can at least take a hit and won't miss 80% of it's moves
:Urshifu-Single-Strike: -1 This thing is immensely threatening in the current meta with plenty of mons that can support it like zera and indeedee. Great stabs to threaten the likes of Incineroar and Mew and good coverage options beside that. Unseen fist synergizes incredibly well with fake out. Calls for a suspect are premature as it's special frailty and mediocre speed tier leave it struggling with the likes of mienshao and mons you'd want a dark type to beat such as Alakazam. Still a ridiculous threat when played right and fully deserving of t1
- 4 -1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Chople Berry Incineroar: 109-129 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO :( this meta just ain't kind to ol aegi. Incin and Urshifu SS along with every weather other than hail dumpster the sword. It's unique typing and good stats means it can fill holes on teams and it's ability to be a defensive and offensive monster means it has a place in the meta but it ain't a big place. - 2 I've been using this mon a lot and it's very solid. Solos kingdra rain, scares incin to death, variable coverage to cover checks and strong enough to cover neutral targets. - UR Goodnight sweet prince. Mienshao outclasses this in every meaningful way. - 4 Speaking of outclassed. Every time I put this on a team I wish it was Incineroar. Being weak to fairy sucks, being 4x weak to fairy is just awful. A rock resistance instead of a rock weakness would be nice in a meta with more than one decent rock type. It works on certain if you already have a fire like volc, or other situational cases. It will get the job done most of the time but incin probably would get the same job done better. - 5 Urshifu RS but special, very strong but poor meta mus, fits fine in t5 - 5 Another half decent mon without a particularly defined place in the meta. Unique defensive and offensive traits mean it still fits in the meta in some way but it's not a big role. - UR Speed tier doesn't translate to any particular niche and pure fire typing hinders more than it helps. - UR kingdra is king and this thing has no niche. - 5 Solid tailwind mon + set up threat with bulk up. Solid mon. - 5 It's fine Lkjc , it can run a decent variety of sets and they're all fine. - UR sand is already meh, but Exca does it far better than anything else. Yawn sets waste a turn and normal has little defensive or offensive utility in this meta unless they have say, 160 HP and 110 in atk and SpDef. - 5 Beginning to think Vrji has a thing for psychic fairy types. I'm sceptical on this one but he assures me it works and it seems functional enough. - 2 strong af offensive threat, bulky, fake out support. Just really good. - 2 Man this Mon seems shit on paper but it provides fantastic tailwind support, has a good offensive typing for the meta and is decently strong despite it's atk stat. - 2 Not giving up on my boy. Almost unrivaled as a special tank, able to dish out big hits while taking them in return. Urshifu's prominence sucks but lax never used any item religiously and chople fits well enough. - 4 In the same boat as scrafty where I just prefer using incin most of the time. Like scrafty, a different typing gives somewhat of a niche and prankster status moves are also quite useful. - 3 Goodra continues to do what it's done all gen. Solid special wall with decent attacking potential and a decent typing in the meta. Very solid mon. - 2.5 Sand isn't bad RN but ttar is still very tied to sand teams with minimal use outside of the archetype. I've messed around with it outside of sand but it's pretty underwhelming and the fact that you're basically forced to run chople and a shitton of bulk to be even usable is a massive pain. Still a decent mon but not worthy of t2. - 2 Ok this one might be a bit contentious. Zera is damn good and one of the best in t2 imo. However I don't think it's t1 worthy. If there was a tier between 1 and 2 it would fit there but there isn't and I'm leaning towards t2 for now. Still very good tho. - 2 No longer exclusively used on sun, offensive monster because libero be like that. Perfect fit in t2. - 2 GOAT mon. I fucking love this thing. It's winrate in snake was absurd, it's got a shitton of sets and they're all good. Incineroar used to be a death sentence but power herb meteor beam, a set I've spammed since no johns, absolutely destroys the cat. Great mon, absolutely deserving of t2. - UR Hail is bad and if you must use it, Ninetales gets veil up before dying. - 5 good offensive threat that requires a lot of support. Not great but not unusable. - UR Slow, not bulky enough, typing isn't great for the meta. Trick Room has better options. - UR Very gimmicky mon. Explosion and preview uncertainty are fun but ultimately gimmicks and not great gimmicks at that. - UR Weavile sucks, I explained why in my last one of these, go read that. - 5 Decent offensive threat that requires support, incin dunks on it but it's still usable (just) - 5 I'm just slowly dropping this further and further down because, to be frank, I think this mon is awful. If you want a steel bug type, scizor can at least take a hit and won't miss 80% of it's movesMubs out
Kaif has been added to the VR Council. Congratulations!
Also, on the topic of the VR, its about time we talk about something that's become quite necessary at this point: reforming our lower ranks.
Discussion in both the room and discord has lead me to believe that we need to set a higher standard for a Pokemon to be ranked. Some of these Pokemon, while they have niches, they aren't really fitting the definitions of the tiers they currently reside and their presence in those tiers make people hesitant to nom Pokemon down. For example, Mantine isn't exactly on the level of Snorlax, Volcarona, and Galarian Weezing. Is it worth dropping it to the tier of Bisharp and Bronzong, which are nigh-universally agreed to be on quite a lower level to it? Should Bisharp and Bronzong even be Tier 4 in the first place? Please share your thoughts.
As always, thanks for reading and have a nice day. Mubs out.
Also, on the topic of the VR, its about time we talk about something that's become quite necessary at this point: reforming our lower ranks.
>>Tier 3<<
Arcanine
Azumarill
Blastoise
Clefairy
Darmanitan
Darmanitan-Galar
Ferrothorn
Hawlucha
Kommo-o
Mantine
Passimian
Volcarona
Weezing-Galar
>>Tier 4<<
Bisharp
Braviary
Bronzong
Charizard
Dragapult
Dusclops
Gastrodon
Gyarados
Hitmontop
Hydreigon
Indeedee
Milotic
Ninetales
Pincurchin
Raichu-Alola
Rhyperior
Rotom-Heat
Scizor
Sylveon
>>Tier 5<<
Accelgor
Conkeldurr
Dracozolt
Gigalith
Haxorus
Krookodile
Kyurem
Ludicolo
Magnezone
Malamar
Mr Mime
Porygon-Z
Raichu
Rotom-Mow
Sirfetch'd
Tangrowth
Toxtricity
Discussion in both the room and discord has lead me to believe that we need to set a higher standard for a Pokemon to be ranked. Some of these Pokemon, while they have niches, they aren't really fitting the definitions of the tiers they currently reside and their presence in those tiers make people hesitant to nom Pokemon down. For example, Mantine isn't exactly on the level of Snorlax, Volcarona, and Galarian Weezing. Is it worth dropping it to the tier of Bisharp and Bronzong, which are nigh-universally agreed to be on quite a lower level to it? Should Bisharp and Bronzong even be Tier 4 in the first place? Please share your thoughts.
As always, thanks for reading and have a nice day. Mubs out.
It's a choice we have to make, the choice of absolute vs relative rankings. Mantine does function well on manual rain teams (with dracovish as a backup), and therefore deserves tier 3, even enough it might be worse than other pokemon also deserving of that category. If we choose absolute rankings, we therefore rank it in T3, if we chose relative ranking we rank it T4.
If we chose absolute rankings, it's easy: as long as we have very clear guidelines for each tier, and as long as we actually follow these it should be very obvious which mons are to be ranked and which mons not. The only issue is that the current T5 definition is "Pokemon that, while they have a niche in the metagame, often struggle to find situations where they thrive, either because of the support required or their poor matchups.", which is bad because almost every pokemon has some sort of a niche.
Regardless, if we do make that choice, then arguments such as "Mantine isn't as good as the other pokemon in the tier" simply don't apply.
If we choose to go for relative rankings, then tier descriptions become completely obsolete, then the only definition of a tier is that all pokemon in a certain tier must be significantly better than all pokemon in lower tiers, and significantly worse than pokemon in higher tiers.
If we chose absolute rankings, it's easy: as long as we have very clear guidelines for each tier, and as long as we actually follow these it should be very obvious which mons are to be ranked and which mons not. The only issue is that the current T5 definition is "Pokemon that, while they have a niche in the metagame, often struggle to find situations where they thrive, either because of the support required or their poor matchups.", which is bad because almost every pokemon has some sort of a niche.
Regardless, if we do make that choice, then arguments such as "Mantine isn't as good as the other pokemon in the tier" simply don't apply.
If we choose to go for relative rankings, then tier descriptions become completely obsolete, then the only definition of a tier is that all pokemon in a certain tier must be significantly better than all pokemon in lower tiers, and significantly worse than pokemon in higher tiers.
The primary reason the notion of switching from tiers from ranks was implemented was because of the problem that we had of getting VR shifts up. Our system was based of the current one 1v1 has (which to the non 1v1 people watching are the Viability Ranking sheets). The main problem with using that system is that it got to a point that consistently updating both the sheet and the OP wasn't possible (partially due to my inability to get on smogon at times, and many of the members at the time not updating their votes every week). When the idea of switching to DOU's system was raised in chat, I was in favor of it due to it due to our status as a doubles metagame and the inefficiency of the past system; I wanted to give a nomination-based slate system a try.
I do believe that such a system is working out better than what we had before, and what Vrji has mentioned probably is the main problem we face. Should we base our tiers off of relative or absolute? Should we add more tiers, or just go back to the A+, A- A system? I'm unsure so far, though I am willing to give going back to the alphabetic system.
Anyway, thanks for reading and have a nice day.
I do believe that such a system is working out better than what we had before, and what Vrji has mentioned probably is the main problem we face. Should we base our tiers off of relative or absolute? Should we add more tiers, or just go back to the A+, A- A system? I'm unsure so far, though I am willing to give going back to the alphabetic system.
Anyway, thanks for reading and have a nice day.
IBM
Banned deucer.
Just don’t have inactive council members?
#BringBackRanks2020
I personally usually prefer relative rankings when building (which is what vr are for, after all), as they give a more general overview of what to watch out for. I care less is a pokemon fulfills a certain description than that it's better than what my current core beats and requires a dedicated check on the team.
As I already said, there is literally no difference between using Letters and Numbers, I would personally prefer letters as I'm more used to working with them from 1v1 and usage based singles, but that's subjective and unimportant.
As I already said, there is literally no difference between using Letters and Numbers, I would personally prefer letters as I'm more used to working with them from 1v1 and usage based singles, but that's subjective and unimportant.
gonna post some samples take them with a grain of salt
https://pokepast.es/5b4ac640267dca43
https://pokepast.es/6d679d8b06f966be
https://pokepast.es/818c6f24df645063
https://pokepast.es/5b4ac640267dca43
https://pokepast.es/6d679d8b06f966be
https://pokepast.es/818c6f24df645063
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