Lower Tiers ADV NU Viability Ranking (found new host)

Rabia

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Wasn't Magby ranked? what happened to it? Don't see it getting UR anywhere
it's bad

sure I'll expand: it only really has a niche as an antilead against Glalie that can sorta annoy fat waters with subtox, but it really does nothing other than that and frankly is outdone by flareon in every respect outside of antileading Glalie to threaten an OHKO. just doesn't have a reasonable enough niche
 
but i think you just explained that it has a reasonable enough niche

no this is not a one liner and yes magby definetly has niche enough to be ranked.
(anti-leading glalie and toxic stalling all sorts of things thanks to its speed tier is niche enough)
(although yes ponyta is faster and more bulky but spiting rabia is too good)

[17:04:48] poh: 252 SpA Ponyta Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Glalie: 302-356 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
[17:04:59] neomon: u run flame thrower
[17:05:01] neomon: twiw
[17:05:07] neomon: so yea it really doesnt matter
[17:05:12] poh: 252 SpA Magby Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Glalie: 316-372 (86.8 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
[17:05:27] neomon: calc vs belloa
[17:05:29] neomon: and tang
[17:05:33] neomon: and tropius
[17:05:41] poh: btw
[17:05:45] poh: ponyta gets overheat
[17:05:52] poh: so it actually kills glalie with that
[17:05:58] neomon: i know yea
[17:12:43] poh: they both 2hko bellossom
[17:12:49] poh: they both ohko metang
[17:13:20] poh: they both 2hko tropius
[17:14:56] poh: ponyta ties with venomoth, golbat, pikachu
[17:28:10] neomon: + better ability


also edit nr. 35 if u want real talk, u got magcargo ranked but not the best pursuit trapper and hp fire chime counter
 
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Bughouse

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I'd certainly support Houndour being on here.
As for Magby, I haven't seen one in ages and I do agree that Ponyta is probably the better anti-lead anyway. I'd support one (or both) of them being ranked.

It's hard to justify a fire not named Flareon or Torkoal, but trapping Chime and potentially Haunter or fully anti-leading Glalie are big enough niches to be ranked.
 

Rabia

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yo I know this is gonna be dead until NUPL probably, but Dewgong should definitely drop to A- or maybe B+; every time I consider it in building it feels like an inferior Wailord a lot of the time. it's significantly easier to take advantage of and just doesn't do the whole offensive Water-type with defensive utility as well as our whale friend does. I think that dirty Toxic + Encore bullshit will always be a threat, but the narwhal feels overrated in A right now
 

Oglemi

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yo I know this is gonna be dead until NUPL probably, but Dewgong should definitely drop to A- or maybe B+; every time I consider it in building it feels like an inferior Wailord a lot of the time. it's significantly easier to take advantage of and just doesn't do the whole offensive Water-type with defensive utility as well as our whale friend does. I think that dirty Toxic + Encore bullshit will always be a threat, but the narwhal feels overrated in A right now
Probably fair considering the dropoff in Huntail usage, which countering it was its biggest selling point. It was always pretty passive and not as "safe" as Wailord (Fight + Rock weak is butts), which considering the whale's dominance the past couple years would justify a drop for Dewgong. Interested to see how much Huntail we see this NUPL myself tbh
 

Disjunction

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I'm not dropping dewgong below huntail when it is leagues better. That being said, I think Huntail is around B+ nowadays, so I'm not against the shift as long as Huntail makes a drop to there or at least A- too.

Also I wanna swap Plusle and Minun in rank. They both kinda suck, but Minun's better special bulk is more useful for Pikachu and some one off situations.
252 SpA Minun Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 212 SpD Wailord: 287-338 (59.6 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Plusle Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 212 SpD Wailord: 307-362 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Minun Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Wailord: 246-290 (51.1 - 60.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Plusle Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Wailord: 266-314 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Minun Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Roselia: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Plusle Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Roselia: 98-116 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 SpA Light Ball Pikachu Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Plusle: 109-129 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Light Ball Pikachu Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Minun: 98-116 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Flareon Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Plusle: 220-259 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Flareon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Minun: 198-234 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Murkrow Drill Peck vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plusle: 149-176 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Murkrow Drill Peck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Minun: 128-151 (49 - 57.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

These aren't super impressive or anything, but it's more of an efficiency thing. Plusle doesn't do a whole hell of a lot better than Minun offensively. Usually if you are running either of these two over Haunter for your speed control it's because of their defensive utility anyways, so might as well use the one that's better at it.

Will probably drop more thoughts after NUPL, but CPL has gotten me around to tinkering in this tier again so I figured it was worth a quick post.

edit: i take this back plusle is good
 
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Rabia

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NUPL is over, and I feel like sharing how I would currently do the VR. Any major changes I'll give justification for.

S rank:

S+

  • :wailord: Wailord
S
  • :chimecho: Chimecho
  • :haunter: Haunter
  • :roselia: Roselia

A rank:

A+

  • :bellossom: Bellossom
  • :flareon: Flareon
  • :glalie: Glalie
  • :metang: Metang
  • :relicanth: Relicanth
  • :sableye: Sableye (already was pretty fringe S rank and I haven't been convinced over the past year that it's anywhere near the same level of dominance the others are. It generally just sits around and does nothing most games, and with the massive drop in usage/viability of wallbreakers it checks, namely the Normal-types and Hitmonchan, I don't think its all that great anymore. It still checks Chimecho and Haunter, which is great, but both can bypass it pretty effectively.)
  • :torkoal: Torkoal
A
  • :dewgong: Dewgong
  • :diglett: Diglett
  • :golbat: Golbat
  • :murkrow: Murkrow
  • :octillery: Octillery (Baton Pass is fair and balanced.)
  • :pupitar: Pupitar
A-
  • :cacturne: Cacturne
  • :hitmonchan: Hitmonchan (awful at wallbreaking because most teams can pivot around its moves really easily. It's pretty much relegated to a utility role in the majority of games nowadays, and such sets are really just kind of there; it struggles to have much of a significant influence on games, and the commonality of Pokemon like Chimecho and Pelipper that give it massive headaches is shit for it.)
  • :huntail: Huntail (move over, old man, this is Wailord's tier now.)
  • :kecleon: Kecleon
  • :mawile: Mawile
  • :pikachu: Pikachu
  • :tropius: Tropius
  • :venomoth: Venomoth

B rank:

B+

  • :arbok: Arbok
  • :crawdaunt: Crawdaunt
  • :plusle: Plusle
  • :sudowoodo: Sudowoodo
  • :whiscash: Whiscash
B
  • :abra: Abra
  • :minun: Minun
  • :pidgeot: Pidgeot (it literally cannot wallbreak any team without just using Hidden Power Ground every turn and praying the opponent lacks a Ground immunity, which is never happening.)
  • :piloswine: Piloswine
  • :raticate: Raticate (read: Pidgeot)
  • :swalot: Swalot
  • :tangela: Tangela
  • :vigoroth: Vigoroth (this might be a bit low, but it always feels really underwhelming to me and doesn't seem to ever contribute to a game.)

C rank:

C

  • :dragonair: Dragonair
  • :graveler: Graveler
  • :grovyle: Grovyle
  • :kingler: Kingler
  • :koffing: Koffing
  • :lickitung: Lickitung
  • :seadra: Seadra
  • :shelgon: Shelgon
  • :togetic: Togetic
  • :wigglytuff: Wigglytuff

Obviously, this is all my opinion, so there will be disagreements on rankings and Pokemon I left out. I'll justify any of the ones I didn't if you prompt me to, though.
 

Disjunction

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Alright NUPL finished up so let's get the yearly update rolling. Here is my list of proposed changes:
Code:
Rises:
Wailord S --> S+
Diglett A --> A+
Pupitar A --> A+
Cacturne A- --> A
Plusle B+ --> A-
Pelipper B+ --> A-

Drops:
Hitmonchan S --> A
Sableye S --> A+
Relicanth A+ --> A
Huntail A --> A-
Pidgeot A- --> B+
Vigoroth A- --> B-
Kingler B- --> C
Lairon C --> UR
Graveler C --> UR
Poliwhirl C --> UR
Here's what the list would look for people that like visualizations
S Rank:

Top:
  • Wailord
Mid:
  • Chimecho
  • Haunter
  • Roselia
A Rank:

Top:

  • Bellossom
  • Diglett
  • Flareon
  • Glalie
  • Metang
  • Pupitar
  • Sableye
Mid:
  • Cacturne
  • Dewgong
  • Golbat
  • Hitmonchan
  • Murkrow
  • Raticate
  • Relicanth
  • Torkoal
Low:
  • Kecleon
  • Huntail
  • Mawile
  • Octillery
  • Pelipper
  • Plusle
  • Pikachu
  • Tropius
  • Venomoth
B Rank:

Top:

  • Arbok
  • Crawdaunt
  • Pidgeot
  • Sudowoodo
  • Tangela
  • Vigoroth
  • Whiscash
Low:
  • Abra
  • Lickitung
  • Minun
  • Piloswine
  • Seadra
  • Shelgon
  • Swalot
  • Togetic
C Rank:
  • Dragonair
  • Grovyle
  • Kingler
  • Koffing
  • Magcargo
  • Noctowl
  • Volbeat
  • Wartortle
  • Wigglytuff
  • Yanma
Nobody reads the reasoning for anything other than the high rank mons, so I'll explain most of those in hide tags here
Best mon in the tier by far. Tough to kill quickly and tough to switch into. If you play the tier you know how good this shit is and how valuable it is to have around in every game whether it's as an emergency boom button to remove an opposing sweeper or as a soft offensive check to the entire tier. The entire tier revolves around this mon and the list should reflect that.

Good mon, but not even close to meta defining. Teams will naturally have answers to it because Chime is good for a variety of other reasons. It lacks a lot of defensive usefulness as it depends on its special bulk and Mach Punch to check a lot of what it needs to. Rapid Spin is cool, it's still pretty threatening when it can come in, but it is not tier defining by any metric.

Still a good mon, but I don't think it's on the same level as Chime, Haunter, and Roselia. All three of those are factors you need to consider in builder and always will be considering, but Sableye really just exists as a decently useful defensive mon with good sustain. It suffers from being pretty passive because of how slow it is, so it lets in Wailord and other offensive threats a lot. Toxic is also widespread and is its biggest enemy. A lot of the stuff it used to check, such as Hitmonchan and Normal-types, have fallen out of favor and aren't seen as much, so it generally feels much less useful nowadays when its most popular targets to check are Calm Mind Chimecho and Haunter which can be covered better by Pokemon with more presence

Good spiker because of its offensive presence and typing. Encore has a good chance at messing with BP teams. Messes with Haunter and Chimecho pretty well. Worse than Roselia in a lot of matchups because it doesn't make as good of use of its typing defensively, but still shown itself to be a good pick this last NUPL

I'm constantly thinking about how to handle this mon in builder. It's a lot like Comfey in SM NU where it often wins late game vs teams that are "prepped" for it. Chimecho loses to HP Bug on switch in to DD and Wailord pretty rarely lives to see the point in the game that Pupitar is revealed. Bellossom has to rely on no Shed Skin proc or first turn wake. It's super consistent and strong and should always be under consideration in the builder

If you wanted to know why I wanted to make any of the other changes, feel free to ask me. Discord is sponcy#9171 if you don't care enough to make a post about it in here. Of course any other suggestions on changes are welcome and encouraged as well.
 
I made a quick spreadsheet to compare how things performed in 2019 NUPL vs 2020 NUPL.

My comments regarding the top Pokemon are:
:rs/Wailord: Wailord in my opinion isn't at such a level of dominance in this tier that it deserves its own rank. It's obviously a fantastic Pokemon and hugely threatening to almost everything, but it's quite susceptible to Toxic (which has been spammed everywhere and on pretty much everything) and it is rarely going to sweep a team. It's super high utility though and I would leave it in the S rank. If the rankings were going to get fully ordered, I'd also put it at #1.

:rs/Roselia: Roselia underperformed pretty badly this NUPL. I think the trend towards high pressure offensive teams (and Baton Pass) hurt it substantially. It does not excel in these matchups and it loses a lot of momentum if it switches in on the Water-type and then guesses whether it should use Giga Drain or Spikes incorrectly. It is still amazing in matchups where it gets free turns, though. A+

:rs/Metang: I think Metang deserves to be up there with Wailord/Chimecho/Haunter in S tier. Toxic immunity, a substantial array of resistances and few weaknesses, and Explosion (and tools to threaten Pokemon that resist it) makes it the go-to pick for a lot of teams that want security against Normal-types. It takes a hit from virtually anything and hits hard or threatens Toxic in return. It works with a huge variety of EV spreads as well that can easily catch opponents off-guard.

:rs/Hitmonchan: :rs/Sableye: These two I would agree are currently ranked too high, despite Sableye's very good results in the games it was used in. Not preparing for them would be very unwise, but just due to the tendency for Hitmonchan to be naturally prepared for and Sableye's passivity in a metagame with a lot of Spikes users that can take advantage of that, they should be dropped to A+.

Other thoughts:
:diglett: Diglett is a bit inconsistent, I think it should stay in A.
:relicanth: Relicanth doesn't have enough usage to deserve its spot in A+. Should drop to A.
:torkoal: Torkoal has fantastic utility and is a contender for A+. The stats support this as well. Although I think it is on the border of A and A+.
:golbat: Golbat's overrated on the VR compared to the current meta, I'd drop it to A-.
:murkrow: Murkrow I'd say is also A- worthy due to there being few Pokemon it can switch into safely and there being numerous faster offensive Pokemon that OHKO it.
:pupitar: I'd say it's very close to deserving A+ rank, but maybe not quite. Its effectiveness really depends on whether it can find the setup opportunity it needs.
:huntail: It's fallen out of popularity but still has a lot of potential. I guess A- is okay for now.
:octillery: I would keep this in A-.
:kecleon: Consider dropping to B+.
:pelipper: This should rise to A- or A. Great Defense, Fire resistance without an accompanying weakness to Grass and the ability to effectively run both offensive and defensive sets.
:plusle: This should definitely be at least A-, potentially even A.
:minun: This should be B+ probably as well.
:poliwhirl: :lairon: :graveler: I've seen all of these used effectively recently so I would hesitate to unrank them. I can find the replays if needed.
:ledian: :delcatty: These should be ranked. I'd put Ledian in B+ and Delcatty in C.
 

Bughouse

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I agree with EW’s proposed ranks the most overall, though I could see hitmonchan and Roselia falling to A rather than A+. Passive teams where a spike war matters just isn’t the meta anymore. Obviously they still both have their uses but they’re not S anymore or even A+ imo. I’d go A. Otherwise I think I’d be good with his ranks.

I think the reactions to the normals (pidge, rat kec,, and vig) in others’ ranks are overreactions and I am not sure any need to drop more than a half rank, but I do think that would be generally appropriate across the board.

In terms of my own ranks, I think mawile could drop a half rank as it’s just really difficult to justify over other physically bulky mons like metang relicanth and Torkoal imo. Its primary viability at this point is baton pass.
 

M Dragon

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First of all, I really enjoyed building and playing ADV NUPL.
I think the metagame is p good atm (although some people would argue that BP chains should be nerfed in some way)

I mostly agree with Eartworm comments.
I think that Roselia should drop to A+ and that Metang should be S tier together with Wailord, Chimecho and Haunter. Also, while I agree that Wailord is the best pokemon in the tier, I don't think that Wailord should have its own rank. I would argue that the difference between Wailord and Chimecho (the second best pokemon in the tier) is very small.

I think that Rabia is underrating Hitmonchan and Dewgong in his ranking.
Hitmonchan is the best spinner in a tier with 2 great spikes, and has the potential to break a team with a Bulk Up (one of the most threatening mons in the tier).
Dewgong is a great alternative to Wailord in a lot of teams, with access to STAB Ice Beam and more important: Encore, which allows it to beat things like CM Chimecho. While the rest set is a worse Wailord, the offensive 3 attacks Encore Dewgong is really good in current meta, especially with Spikes support.

They both should be A+.
 

Rabia

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I'll respond to MDrag's part about my post because he mentioned me by name

I think there are two things that can explain me keeping Dewgong in A: my feelings shared pre-NUPL and my current feelings on Wailord. I 1000% am in the camp of "Wailord is a significant step above the other S ranks"; I think there is little to no drawback for using it on teams because of the immense utility it offers alongside how devastating of a wallbreaker it is. I think the difference between it and Chimecho in terms of viability is being understated a fair bit, although perhaps Haunter/Metang are being a bit overrated too and Chimecho is simply much further above them than I am considering it in my head. Much of my Dewgong ranking has to do with me thinking less of it as an A- Pokemon now given NUPL results.

I think Hitmonchan is just not very good and have been shitting on it fairly consistently for a few months now. Bulk Up is good but still suffers from a lot of the similar issues to CB in that there are several options that pivot around it, take a hit, and drop it in return. I could see an argument for keeping it in A at least, but I don't think it's as good as being stated.

re Roselia: I was considering putting Flareon in S because I think this NUPL in particular has done a fair job at showcasing how it's easily one of the top A+ Pokemon (alongside Metang), but I didn't in the end because there was no S- rank. That's where I would've put Roselia, and I think I could see a drop to A+, although I'm not sold on it entirely. Beyond Spikes support Roselia's ability to support slower breakers with Stun Spore is really valuable (Aromatherapy also has a lot of merit on fatter builds), and it's just one of the easiest Pokemon to justify on teams. I think Cacturne's rise has dampened its usefulness a bit, but from my experience the two fit on pretty different looking compositions. I'd like to here more on this from anti-Roselia users.
 

Disjunction

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Gonna assume that everyone who wanted to say their piece has. I agree with a lot of the points M Drag and EW presented and put together this list of changes:
Code:
Rises:
Metang A+ --> S
Pupitar A --> A+
Torkoal A --> A+
Cacturne A- --> A
Plusle B+ --> A
Pelipper B+ --> A
Minun B- --> B+
Ledian UR --> B-
Delcatty UR --> C

Drops:
Hitmonchan S --> A+
Roselia S --> A+
Sableye S --> A+
Relicanth A+ --> A
Huntail A --> A-
Raticate A --> A-
Kecleon A- --> B+
Mawile A- --> B+
Pidgeot A- --> B+
Vigoroth A- --> B-
Kingler B- --> C
Had to update all the fuckin sprites again because Pokestadium is down again.

I was mostly in the camp of keeping rose S because I think every team should have spikes and Rose is the most reliable spiker in my mind, but that's probably flawed thinking when it comes to S ranking. Just because something is the best rocker in the tier doesn't necessarily mean it's as impactful as other S ranks, so I was fine with dropping it to A+ in the end.

I ended up not moving Dewgong up to A+ as well just because the mon itself sees very little play presumably because it's hard to justify on a team over wailord. Losing to +1 Pupitar, inviting in Hitmonchan, and being overall weaker are pretty big cons for using it. I wouldn't want to ever drop it out of A, but I don't see it on the same level of power as Glalie, Bellossom, and Flareon.

Murkrow I'm also hesitant to drop because I think it has a lot of defensive merit that's being understated. It switches into Bellossom and Chimecho fairly well and its Speed tier is not that terrible assuming you have fallbacks for Plusle and Haunter. It's a good wallbreaker that's immune to spikes that also gets a free switch in vs both of the Grass-type Spikers as well. It's much more threatening than Golbat at least.

Open to criticism and such as well. These updates are pretty informal since we usually get so little people contributing to them so I try to stay flexible. If anybody wanted to suggest any other changes I'm fine with doing other changes in the future.
 
good job, vr is looking good, regarding some of the lower rank stuff though:

I haven't seen a team utilize koffing at all, let alone utilize it well so someone feel free to explain why its ranked?
golbat can honestly drop another rank its pretty horrible most of the time even though its a nice blanket check to a few things
abra&pilo could easily be C rank, both are situational at best or well, very hard to actually make work
wigglytuff could be low B
 

Disjunction

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Koffing works as a Pupitar/Chan check, has access to cool moves like Wisp and Explosion, and is immune to spikes. It's not amazing, but it's C rank and there's an argument to unrank every mon there.
Golbat could probably drop again but I'd rather wait til next NUPL and see if it continues to underperform since we just dropped it. I like it more than Pidgeot since it has an actual defensive niche and would not want the two in the same rank.
With regard to the lower rank changes, I don't really disagree with you, but it's also hard for me to get behind moving stuff around when "very hard to actually make work" applies to most of B+ and everything below it. I'm cool with Pilo dropping if nobody else cares because it's suffered the most from current trends, but I'm pretty lukewarm about the other changes.
 
E865A9E4-47C8-424B-95A9-585C6D6BBAE1.png
252/0-/68/0/176+/12
Synthesis/Giga drain/Ice beam/Surf
He is a great check to water types such as wailord, huntail, clamperl. sometimes he can sponge metang, also. he should be ranked C, I think.
 

Rabia

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View attachment 314582 252/0-/68/0/176+/12
Synthesis/Giga drain/Ice beam/Surf
He is a great check to water types such as wailord, huntail, clamperl. sometimes he can sponge metang, also. he should be ranked C, I think.
Lombre ends up having too much of an opportunity cost is its main issue; sure, it checks the foes you noted here, but why would I ever use it over defensive Wailord or Dewgong, both of which function the same? It really only has a "place" on certain rain teams, and even there it's very mediocre because of how weak it is.

I think the only tournament that's happened between the last update and now was NU classic; however, I don't think anything was really shown off to justify changing the placements of anything currently. There are some random C-rank Pokemon that I wouldn't mind getting rid of---Noctowl, Yanma, and Lairon stand out the most---but I'm otherwise content with the status of the VR. Hopefully NUPL results in some metagame shifts.
 
With Lombre and similar NFEs like Chinchou and Magnemite, they are effective against certain Pokemon when defensively EVed, but they then have a major downside in not being able to threaten Roselia. If Roselia is able to set up Spikes freely against them, it will be problematic for their defensive capabilities. Being able to threaten Roselia is a big determining factor in viability in the tier -- you can see by looking at the top ranks that basically the only Pokemon that can't threaten it at least somewhat are Roselia itself and Sableye. This makes me slightly sceptical about including the defensive niche NFEs. However, it is possible but risky to remove Roselia with Adamant Choice Band Diglett and slight chip damage, which could make them more viable options.
 
With Lombre and similar NFEs like Chinchou and Magnemite, they are effective against certain Pokemon when defensively EVed, but they then have a major downside in not being able to threaten Roselia. If Roselia is able to set up Spikes freely against them, it will be problematic for their defensive capabilities. Being able to threaten Roselia is a big determining factor in viability in the tier -- you can see by looking at the top ranks that basically the only Pokemon that can't threaten it at least somewhat are Roselia itself and Sableye. This makes me slightly sceptical about including the defensive niche NFEs. However, it is possible but risky to remove Roselia with Adamant Choice Band Diglett and slight chip damage, which could make them more viable options.
Calm mind sableye is a pretty funny way to counter rosella. (HP dark and psychic are his attacking moves, along with CM and recover).
 
After talking with some players like Isoptera on Showdown, I actually think the best CM Sableye set is Recover, HP Dark, Calm Mind, and Rest. Held item is a chesto berry. Mono dark coverage is adequate for the tier, and being able to shrug off status is a big deal, since it is usually the default answer to cripple Sableye. I know that the calc. recommends max hp, max defense for the CM set, but I enjoy having at least some special attack investment. He needs some potency without 4+ boosts. A few EVs to speed creep base 50's is a good consideration as well. Calm mind spam is more viable than I initially thought, the team style is pretty fun. Call me crazy, but I think Omanyte might have a niche as a spiker who can spike on normal/ flying attacks. For CM spam that can be valuable. He can also setup rain and fire off some very powerful hydro pumps to add to the special attacking assault. I haven't put Omanyte into practice though, this is just an idea.
 
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After talking with some players like Isoptera on Showdown, I actually think the best CM Sableye set is Recover, HP Dark, Calm Mind, and Rest. Held item is a chesto berry. Mono dark coverage is adequate for the tier, and being able to shrug off status is a big deal, since it is usually the default answer to cripple Sableye. I know that the calc. recommends max hp, max defense for the CM set, but I enjoy having at least some special attack investment. He needs some potency without 4+ boosts. A few EVs to speed creep base 50's is a good consideration as well. Calm mind spam is more viable than I initially thought, the team style is pretty fun. Call me crazy, but I think Omanyte might have a niche as a spiker who can spike on normal/ flying attacks. For CM spam that can be valuable. He can also setup rain and fire off some very powerful hydro pumps to add to the special attacking assault. I haven't put Omanyte into practice though, this is just an idea.
My issue with CM Sab was always that it took long to ramp up enough SpDef to handle all the strong special attackers. I remember seeing it work when the opponent gets caught making some plays not expecting it, but more often i just see it flop compared to a standard Toxic Sab. If you're looking for stuff that sets up on or switches in on Rose then there's a lot of more generally useful picks in the upper ranks. Also wouldn't trust a lot of the PS Calc spreads for stuff since they pull from the dex and there isn't really much updated info for ADV NU there.

Also have battled a couple Omanytes before and his issues are he is way too slow, has way too little HP, and lets in too many powerhouses like Wailord and Rose. He's useful in matchups against choiced Normal- and Flying-types but that's about it and those are pretty rare nowadays.
 
My issue with CM Sab was always that it took long to ramp up enough SpDef to handle all the strong special attackers. I remember seeing it work when the opponent gets caught making some plays not expecting it, but more often i just see it flop compared to a standard Toxic Sab. If you're looking for stuff that sets up on or switches in on Rose then there's a lot of more generally useful picks in the upper ranks. Also wouldn't trust a lot of the PS Calc spreads for stuff since they pull from the dex and there isn't really much updated info for ADV NU there.

Also have battled a couple Omanytes before and his issues are he is way too slow, has way too little HP, and lets in too many powerhouses like Wailord and Rose. He's useful in matchups against choiced Normal- and Flying-types but that's about it and those are pretty rare nowadays.
Yeah the standard Sableye set is absolutely more consistent, has a lot more defensive utility since you're not concerned with making it specially offensive, and it can actually threaten Hitmonchan.
I do have a few good ideas with Omanyte to take advantage of his common switchins. Maybe he can run thief to cripple them for the rest of the game (especially helpful for Roselia). I also think sandstorm on the switch, then a pivot into sand veil cacturne on the hydro pump or HP grass/ electric could create some momentum. Even something like Icy Wind might be nice to slow down the switch ins, then potentially finish them off with a powerful ice beam (Roselia) or HP for the waters. Or it could simply help your slower check do its job better (SpDef Bellossum for Wailord, etc..). Can also cripple a sun sweeper Bellossum looking to capitalize on the slow Omanyte. I've kind of given up on giving him Rain Dance to help in the special offense/ sweeping effort, but maybe I just haven't built around it properly.
Spiking on the band normals is great, even though you've correctly noted they're becoming rarer and rarer. Even if the normal attacker isn't choiced, Omanyte can still spike on them. In the case of Jolly Raticate (I imagine no one runs adamant, that would waste Raticate's biggest advantage over his competition), HP ground does 41.2-48.9% if Omanyte is only invested with max HP. If Omanyte happens to run max HP, max Defense Bold, HP ground does 29.5-35%. A 16.6% chance to 3 hit KO if Omanyte takes 1 layer of spikes chip (after lefties). If you're calculating for a field without spike(s), Omanyte needs 252 HP, 176 Defense Bold to not get 3 hit KO'd 100% of the time (and at 152 it is only a 0.3% chance, so those 24 points can go elsewhere). If Omanyte switches into a double edge (which does 20.4-24%), and it hits max roll, he can still take 2 more max roll HP grounds, which means he can get 2 layers of spikes up. With this in mind, I don't think the substitute normal attacking sets totally invalidate Omanyte's niche. By the way, it is fairly hard to find tournaments and pages for this tier, how do you stay in the loop? I'd love to compete.
 
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Yeah the standard Sableye set is absolutely more consistent, has a lot more defensive utility since you're not concerned with making it specially offensive, and it can actually threaten Hitmonchan.
I do have a few good ideas with Omanyte to take advantage of his common switchins. Maybe he can run thief to cripple them for the rest of the game (especially helpful for Roselia). I also think sandstorm on the switch, then a pivot into sand veil cacturne on the hydro pump or HP grass/ electric could create some momentum. Even something like Icy Wind might be nice to slow down the switch ins, then potentially finish them off with a powerful ice beam (Roselia) or HP for the waters. Or it could simply help your slower check do its job better (SpDef Bellossum for Wailord, etc..). Can also cripple a sun sweeper Bellossum looking to capitalize on the slow Omanyte. I've kind of given up on giving him Rain Dance to help in the special offense/ sweeping effort, but maybe I just haven't built around it properly.
Spiking on the band normals is great, even though you've correctly noted they're becoming rarer and rarer. Even if the normal attacker isn't choiced, Omanyte can still spike on them. In the case of Jolly Raticate (I imagine no one runs adamant, that would waste Raticate's biggest advantage over his competition), HP ground does 41.2-48.9% if Omanyte is only invested with max HP. If Omanyte happens to run max HP, max Defense Bold, HP ground does 29.5-35%. A 16.6% chance to 3 hit KO if Omanyte takes 1 layer of spikes chip (after lefties). If you're calculating for a field without spike(s), Omanyte needs 252 HP, 176 Defense Bold to not get 3 hit KO'd 100% of the time (and at 152 it is only a 0.3% chance, so those 24 points can go elsewhere). If Omanyte switches into a double edge (which does 20.4-24%), and it hits max roll, he can still take 2 more max roll HP grounds, which means he can get 2 layers of spikes up. With this in mind, I don't think the substitute normal attacking sets totally invalidate Omanyte's niche. By the way, it is fairly hard to find tournaments and pages for this tier, how do you stay in the loop? I'd love to compete.
I'm walking back on the calm mind Sableye set. I think he is best trying to be as offensive as possible, Psychic is preferable, max special attack investment and nature. Calm mind spam is far too passive unless you pump the mons with special attack investment.
 

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