OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion

I disagree heavily. Peck makes skarm so easy to pivot into for any somewhat bulky team, while toxic makes skarm genuinely terrifying to switch into. Peck is just so flaccid and doesn't make progress into anything that isn't either immensely passive or frail. Toxic puts a permanent timer on ttar, non rest Zapdos, swampert and more and also limits the stay of blissey and even the most defensive of celebi, something that drill peck cannot accomplish. And the pokemon immune to toxic? Drill peck doesn't do anything to them either. I'm not saying dp is useless or bad by any means I just think toxic is better on 75% of teams.
now don't get me wrong, I'm a huge toxic skarm fan. being able to "limit" zapdos like that is huge, as well as criple aero that you come into. toxic is deadly in faster mus. however, in slow mus your enemy will carry more dedicated status absorbers like nat cure mons. if gengar shows up in those mus, its often going to be the biggest progress maker on the enemy team, so letting it in is a huge liability. you might also run across refdol which blanks tox skarm via pp stall where peck skarm can make progress. and lastly, forre tends to shine on slower teams.

now why does it matter more to have a move to win slow mus than fast mus? it's because in slow mus there's more space to scout. in fast matchups skarm often dies without revealing tox/peck, or reveals these moves super late. as you point out, toxic makes skarm absolutely terrifying to switch into, but the thing is, if you're not scouted, you don't actually have to run toxic to inspire that fear. you can just bluff tox and your opp will be forced to do stuff like go gar instead of zap, even if you don't actually have tox. in slow mus, after they've scouted you (which they can do more easily since games are longer), they can exploit your lack of peck harder than they can exploit your lack of toxic.

if you watch a lot of skarm gods play, they like to hide their 3rd/4th move until late to maintain an information advantage. and tox skarm benefits less than peck from this style of play.

that said I like tox skarm a lot on certain teams, like if i have a gar or a suittar, or if im softer into fires/electrics, I'd probably favor tox. and protox lets you handle fat mie more conclusively. so it's not clear cut by any means.
 

Voyager

He didn't notice that the lights had changed
I disagree heavily. Peck makes skarm so easy to pivot into for any somewhat bulky team, while toxic makes skarm genuinely terrifying to switch into. Peck is just so flaccid and doesn't make progress into anything that isn't either immensely passive or frail. Toxic puts a permanent timer on ttar, non rest Zapdos, swampert and more and also limits the stay of blissey and even the most defensive of celebi, something that drill peck cannot accomplish. And the pokemon immune to toxic? Drill peck doesn't do anything to them either. I'm not saying dp is useless or bad by any means I just think toxic is better on 75% of teams.
:rs/gengar:
 
I happen to really like skarm's offensive spikes set, though it doesn't fit well into tss. Being able to outspeed and ohko magneton, while also setting up a spike on the switch, is very useful, and it works really well as a late-game cleaner on anything that's switched into spikes twice.

Granted, I also run it with forretress. The counter/zap cannon build synergizes really well - gengar/starmie switchins don't expect to be paralyzed, it 2hkos pure offense starmie and gyarados, and counter often ohkos metagross. dugtrio, and aerodactyl. I don't think I've ever played against another forretress, and looking at the first build its easy to see why - everything weak to bug runs hp fire, and instead of an unkillable wall you get an explosion pivot, while also being weak to magneton and dugtrio at the same time. Personally, I think the gengar and aerodactyl interactions are the most important - both of those give your team so much breathing room against what can otherwise turn into a lategame cleaner.
 

Ancien Régime

washed gay RSE player
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so i used to be really good at this meta like 12 years ago, what's changed? It seems like the general trend is a lot more offensive/less passive (passive play being the kind of play that I was actually very good at breaking). More interesting sets and more stuff to punish common switchins too.

I don't expect to be super attentive here but ADV OU always has a special place in my heart.


Again I am VERY VERY washed but what does DP actually *do* to Gengar? Yeah it's a 3HKO, maybe a 2HKO with atk EVs, but you still have to switch out immediately, and it's a free Hypnosis for Gengar at absolute minimum. If anything Spikes is a better play than Drill Peck here.
 
so i used to be really good at this meta like 12 years ago, what's changed? It seems like the general trend is a lot more offensive/less passive (passive play being the kind of play that I was actually very good at breaking). More interesting sets and more stuff to punish common switchins too.

I don't expect to be super attentive here but ADV OU always has a special place in my heart.




Again I am VERY VERY washed but what does DP actually *do* to Gengar? Yeah it's a 3HKO, maybe a 2HKO with atk EVs, but you still have to switch out immediately, and it's a free Hypnosis for Gengar at absolute minimum. If anything Spikes is a better play than Drill Peck here.
Gengar can run bulkier 168 HP / 164 SpD spreads which will live 252+ sp atk tyranitar's pursuit and keep it out of sand range. Getting the first spike is much more important but, after that, hitting the gengar and making sure it gets trapped by Ttar is very beneficial. Hitting the non-bulky gengar sets with drill peck will ensure it dies to pursuit whether it stays in or not.

Even without a pursuit ttar, letting gengar continually come come in for free over the course of a longer game can be really detrimental, while getting that chip can mean something else will have an easier time finishing it off.
 

Ancien Régime

washed gay RSE player
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Gengar can run bulkier 168 HP / 164 SpD spreads which will live 252+ sp atk tyranitar's pursuit and keep it out of sand range. Getting the first spike is much more important but, after that, hitting the gengar and making sure it gets trapped by Ttar is very beneficial. Hitting the non-bulky gengar sets with drill peck will ensure it dies to pursuit whether it stays in or not.

Even without a pursuit ttar, letting gengar continually come come in for free over the course of a longer game can be really detrimental, while getting that chip can mean something else will have an easier time finishing it off.
Fair actually! That makes a ton of sense. Pursuit Tar was not that big a thing when I played, like I'd see it 1/100 matches and even that's a stretch. But it seems sort of like a dead slot if they don't have Gengar? Especially without phys/special move split.

Generally my strategy for Gengar was to play around him and predict him to regain tempo, though i think the general quality of RSE players has improved to the point where I can't get away with this consistently. Though one thing I also did was use a 140ish SDef EVed Mence that could literally DD in his face and take an HP Ice and OHKO with HP Flying. Though I think if Gengar invests in Def that doesn't work, again I am washed and out of the loop. I generally built to counter how people played a decade ago haha
 
Fair actually! That makes a ton of sense. Pursuit Tar was not that big a thing when I played, like I'd see it 1/100 matches and even that's a stretch. But it seems sort of like a dead slot if they don't have Gengar? Especially without phys/special move split.

Generally my strategy for Gengar was to play around him and predict him to regain tempo, though i think the general quality of RSE players has improved to the point where I can't get away with this consistently. Though one thing I also did was use a 140ish SDef EVed Mence that could literally DD in his face and take an HP Ice and OHKO with HP Flying. Though I think if Gengar invests in Def that doesn't work, again I am washed and out of the loop. I generally built to counter how people played a decade ago haha
Pursuit tar can also chunk neutral targets like swampert who switch in expecting rock slide with stab crunch and pick off weakened celebi and claydol which can be crucial to some teams, but yeah sometimes it isn't great into some mus. Generally though, it's teammates can pick up it's slack in those games, and the fire dark coverage it packs is hard to take sometimes
 
Hello! I am a scrub. I have been playing ADV for about a month now. I've tried experimenting with Ludicolo and Armaldo. Any tips? I have tried doing calcs with banded Armaldo to act as a more sackable bulky Tyranitar that can potential one shot pixies and flyers from minute one or punish with knock off. Ludicolo is a discount bulky starmie that shits on suicune. Any tips would be appreciated.
 

McMeghan

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Armaldo is useful mostly as a stall mon. Knock off is very good to generate advantage over long games, and Armaldo has a typing + attack stat that makes it particulary good into some special attackers, especially Celebi. It's also reasonnably good into Jirachi and can hold its own into MixMence/Zapdos/Charizard (and Lax).

You will always use Knock Off, then 3 moves between Protect, EQ, Rock Slide and HP Bug pretty much.

Sweeper Armaldo isnt really worth it, it's way too slow and is pretty bad into all the tier water types, not to mention Metagross.

As for Ludicolo, it has a pretty vast movepool, most people myself included use it as a way to hold off Swampert/Suicune and double up as a weather resetter with Rain Dance. Leech Seed/RD/Surf/IB has good early game utility thanks to Leech Seed and late game thanks to Swift Swim. I've seen 3 atk/Leech and Rain Dish/Protect sets put to good use in the past but I haven't really used these sets myself so can't comment much.
 
Hello! I am a scrub. I have been playing ADV for about a month now. I've tried experimenting with Ludicolo and Armaldo. Any tips? I have tried doing calcs with banded Armaldo to act as a more sackable bulky Tyranitar that can potential one shot pixies and flyers from minute one or punish with knock off. Ludicolo is a discount bulky starmie that shits on suicune. Any tips would be appreciated.
In addition to what Roro said, there's also a niche armaldo set that always beats curselax; stoss/knock/rest/def curl. Not always the most insane or magical thing, but it gets the job done, and is cool knock utility under sand (If you always beat lax w/ you fish for knocks w/ it)
 
Hello! I am a scrub. I have been playing ADV for about a month now. I've tried experimenting with Ludicolo and Armaldo. Any tips? I have tried doing calcs with banded Armaldo to act as a more sackable bulky Tyranitar that can potential one shot pixies and flyers from minute one or punish with knock off. Ludicolo is a discount bulky starmie that shits on suicune. Any tips would be appreciated.
mc meg man covered everything but i figured i may as throw in this fun ludicolo joltspikes team i made awhile ago that did pretty well on ladder:

:skarmory: :gengar: :jolteon: :tyranitar: :swampert: :ludicolo:
Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 212 SpD / 44 Spe
Careful Nature
- Drill Peck
- Taunt
- Roar
- Spikes

Gengar (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 68 HP / 16 Atk / 248 SpD / 176 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Punch
- Giga Drain
- Focus Punch
- Will-O-Wisp

Jolteon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 76 HP / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roar
- Baton Pass

Tyranitar (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Focus Punch

Swampert (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Surf
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Focus Punch

Ludicolo (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 76 HP / 92 Def / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Leech Seed
- Rain Dance

traditionally speaking the 5 aside from ludicolo here are pretty standard joltspikes fare and that ludicolo slot can be a lot (salamence, celebi, dugtrio for ex). the rationale follows what mcm alread posted for the most part; ludicolo blanks waters pretty well and that joltspikes skeleton can't pivot into them well. unlike celebi, though (the more obvious anti-water mon), ludicolo doesn't care about eating ice beams, can clean up faster teams thanks to rain dance + swift swim, AND it's another thing to thrown into metagross---a role you cannot have enough of. skarms probably throwing hp away to get up spikes with how this team is structured, meaning it can't backup swampert that well; swampert being the only thing you can throw into metagross is a great way to lose. so ludicolo fills in some nice gaps all in all although im sure there's some modernizations or something to consider for this team. i have no idea what ludicolo evs do though
 
mc meg man covered everything but i figured i may as throw in this fun ludicolo joltspikes team i made awhile ago that did pretty well on ladder:

:skarmory: :gengar: :jolteon: :tyranitar: :swampert: :ludicolo:
Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 212 SpD / 44 Spe
Careful Nature
- Drill Peck
- Taunt
- Roar
- Spikes

Gengar (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 68 HP / 16 Atk / 248 SpD / 176 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Punch
- Giga Drain
- Focus Punch
- Will-O-Wisp

Jolteon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 76 HP / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roar
- Baton Pass

Tyranitar (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Focus Punch

Swampert (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Surf
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Focus Punch

Ludicolo (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 76 HP / 92 Def / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Leech Seed
- Rain Dance

traditionally speaking the 5 aside from ludicolo here are pretty standard joltspikes fare and that ludicolo slot can be a lot (salamence, celebi, dugtrio for ex). the rationale follows what mcm alread posted for the most part; ludicolo blanks waters pretty well and that joltspikes skeleton can't pivot into them well. unlike celebi, though (the more obvious anti-water mon), ludicolo doesn't care about eating ice beams, can clean up faster teams thanks to rain dance + swift swim, AND it's another thing to thrown into metagross---a role you cannot have enough of. skarms probably throwing hp away to get up spikes with how this team is structured, meaning it can't backup swampert that well; swampert being the only thing you can throw into metagross is a great way to lose. so ludicolo fills in some nice gaps all in all although im sure there's some modernizations or something to consider for this team. i have no idea what ludicolo evs do though
I like hitting 198 spe on Ludi to beat Aero in rain, then dump the rest in HP. If you want to be safer into tar you can brush all the way up 244 speed (requires a +spe nature) to be more convincing into enemy Ttar who swap in to reset your weather (this 6 doesn't lure tar rn). If you do this greater speed you should go pump over surf in order to kill said Ttar in sand after spikes.

I like this squad, but I personally would drop Jolt and add Metagross instead. Why?

1. One of Jolt's big utilities on spikes stack is checking Starmie who as you pointed out is dealt with by LUDI. You need to run HP grass on Ludi to convincingly dispatch Starmie, however.
2. Jolt's other big utility is its ability to lategame. Ludi can do this though.
3. Jolt also switches into Mixmence and unrevealed Mence (from skarm). Ludi can do this also.

Instead I'd like to be more strong into defensive Celebi and Blissey who like to swap in. It also lets you (maybe) run a more defensive pert. Unfortunately, lack of Jolt hurts the 6 into Suicune and Zapdos, but if you're "clever" with Metagross (boom) you can still give them a hard time.
 
Has there been any movement in the discussion of banning sand attack and other accuracy dropping moves specifically when combined with ninjask and baton pass? I really think it's the last remaining cheese available and we should try to reduce randomness
 
Has there been any movement in the discussion of banning sand attack and other accuracy dropping moves specifically when combined with ninjask and baton pass? I really think it's the last remaining cheese available and we should try to reduce randomness
Swagger is worse because it's 50% over a long enough period of time. Sand attack is less than twave proc chance per turn, which effectively is the same and paralysis even stops status moves used on yourself.

Sand attack being banned for being random chance implies we should also ban twave basically. If someone wants to waste a move for just 10% less chance thats whatever tbh
 
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Has there been any movement in the discussion of banning sand attack and other accuracy dropping moves specifically when combined with ninjask and baton pass? I really think it's the last remaining cheese available and we should try to reduce randomness
Me and ZacPZ have adamantly supported sand attack ban specifically because it makes ladder hell and because it doesn't fit w/in the spirit of our current clauses. If evasion moves are banned then accuracy dropping moves, esp when paired with mons like Ninjask, should be banned as well. The spirit of the rules is to prevent our matches being coin flips, and that's all sand attack does.

On the swagger argument- swagger at least has substantial risk to it, especially into physical attackers. If every set of coin flips doesn't go your way, you are taking +2 attacks and that will eat your passive Mon alive
 
^The above also applies to Sand Attack though, if the Mon hit by it doesn't miss, you essentially wasted the turn and took damage. It's not as much damage as a +2 physical Mon, but it's still negative to the Sand Attack user.
 
Did you know that Low Kick is much stronger than Cross Chop?

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Cross Chop vs. +1 144 HP / 132 Def Snorlax: 428-504 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 144 HP / 132 Def Snorlax: 511-602 (102.8 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even it has perfect accuracy, it doesn't have to risk missing a Cross Chop.
 

Heika

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Did you know that Low Kick is much stronger than Cross Chop?

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Cross Chop vs. +1 144 HP / 132 Def Snorlax: 428-504 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 144 HP / 132 Def Snorlax: 511-602 (102.8 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even it has perfect accuracy, it doesn't have to risk missing a Cross Chop.
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 202-238 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 161-190 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Cross Chop vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 215-253 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 171-202 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just two instance of this not being true, and actually missing 2HKO with Band, which can be really huge.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 202-238 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 161-190 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Cross Chop vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 215-253 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 171-202 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just two instance of this not being true, and actually missing 2HKO with Band, which can be really huge.
True, as some take the same damage as Cross Chop such as Scizor, Rhydon, Milotic, Raikou, Entei and Suicune.
 
Did you know that Low Kick is much stronger than Cross Chop?

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Cross Chop vs. +1 144 HP / 132 Def Snorlax: 428-504 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 144 HP / 132 Def Snorlax: 511-602 (102.8 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even it has perfect accuracy, it doesn't have to risk missing a Cross Chop.
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Jirachi: 249-294 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Low Kick (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Jirachi: 51-60 (12.6 - 14.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
 
A fact, Machamp learns Earthquake to deal with Jirachi and Metagross, it also hits Raikou and Entei harder.

Vs Jirachi

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Jirachi: 333-392 (82.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Jirachi: 498-586 (123.2 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vs. Entei

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Rock Slide vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Entei: 309-364 (77 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Entei: 411-484 (102.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Does anyone know if Exeggutor can be successfully used in a serious ADV team? He is one of my all-time favorite Pokemon & he is BL so he should have some use other than being a worse Venusaur. Maybe a Sun team which is gimmicky & rare but it's something at least.
 

Hiro'

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Does anyone know if Exeggutor can be successfully used in a serious ADV team? He is one of my all-time favorite Pokemon & he is BL so he should have some use other than being a worse Venusaur. Maybe a Sun team which is gimmicky & rare but it's something at least.
It has indeed some utility in sun teams, which are very rare, as a sun setter/abuser as you can see in this post or in this other tournament game. Another way to weather reset was pulled off by johnnyg2 in this game by catching tar with a lead boom egg, trapping it and weather reset afterwards. As you can see its niche is overall very limited
 
Does anyone know if Exeggutor can be successfully used in a serious ADV team? He is one of my all-time favorite Pokemon & he is BL so he should have some use other than being a worse Venusaur. Maybe a Sun team which is gimmicky & rare but it's something at least.
I have also used it in a tour, although admittedly as a gimmick. We were out of playoff contention so I had free reign to bring anything. Here's a post with the breakdown.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...eral-metagame-discussion.3648620/post-9206279
 

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