OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion

[DkKoba]

Due to the influx of players due to certain content creators sparking interest in the format, I have compiled a list of mechanics that may trip up players who are accustomed to new gens that are different in ADV OU.
Feel free to reply if you are new with something that tripped you up that wasn't on the list and I can add it here.

Global mechanics:

Permanent Weather​

- This is primarily only relevant for Tyranitar as it is the only legal weather setter in OU. Any weather that is set by an ability between generations 3-5 will be permanent until manually changed, whether that be by another ability, or a weather changing move such as Rain Dance. (Magneton, for example, has been used for this purpose in this tier.)​

​

No Physical/Special Split​

- Only typing determines the type of attack a move is. For example, Water type moves are always special, even moves like Crabhammer.​

- Physical types are: Normal, Fighting, Poison, Ground, Flying, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Steel​

- Special types are: Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Ice, Psychic, Dragon, Dark​

- An easy way to remember these types are to consider all Eeveelution types as special + Dragon and the rest are physical​

​

No team preview​

- Pokemon are not revealed until they are sent out during battle. This means that you are encouraged to guess a team based on the revealed structure, as for example, a team of 5 revealed without a single rock resist implies that Swampert may be the last pokemon.​

​

Much smaller item pool​

- While having significantly better choices than GSC did, with more than just leftovers and Miracle Berry(Lum), ADV still pales in item selection compared to future gens, even Generation 4​

- The mainly viable items are as follows, in no particular order:​

• Choice Band
• Leftovers
• Pinch Boost berries(Salac, Liechi, Starf, etc.)
• Lum/Chesto Berry
• Type Boosting Items (Magnet, Mystic Water, BlackGlasses, etc.)
• White Herb (Extremely niche, however still technically viable/useful for Overheat)

Burn and Paralysis differences​

- Burn does 1/8th damage every turn as opposed to the 1/16th it does in modern generations​

- Paralysis quarters (1/4) a Pokemon's speed as opposed to halving it in modern generations​

​

Critical Hit differences​

- In Generation 3, Critical Hits have a chance of 1/16 of happening, and multiply the damage by 2x, while also ignoring stat drops on your side and stat boosts on the opposing side. This was changed in Generation 7 to 1/32 chance and 1.5x damage.​

Steel Types resist Ghost and Dark types​

- Steel types lost these resistances in Generation 6​

​

​

​

End of Turn mechanics

The way turns end is unique in generation 3. This will by no means be a comprehensive overview of how these mechanics work, that is for you to figure out on your own, I will be covering the major points that will be relevant for you.​

Passive/Self Inflicted damage KO: ​

- If a Pokemon dies to self inflicted or passive damage, the turn immediately ends and end of turn effects begin after the new Pokemon switches in. This is relevant for moves such as Explosion, moves with recoil such as Double Edge, and if you're up against a Sharpedo for whatever reason, Rough Skin damage, and confusion damage.​

- If both Trainers choose to switch on the same turn, if the first switch to occur triggers a KO, the second switch will be cancelled.​

Effects Order​

- The order of effects can be found here: https://pastebin.com/HbcXtCN7 Do note that in cases where there are overlapping effects(i.e. both Pokemon have Leftovers), the faster Pokemon will resolve first.​

​

​

Move/Pokemon/Ability Specific mechanics:

Sleep Talk Bug​

- In Gen 3, Sleep Talk was bugged so that if you switched out after using it, it would effectively reset your sleep turns.​

~ Example: You are a Suicune who used Rest and now have used Sleep Talk. If you:​

• Switch: You will have to sleep for 2 turns once you switch back in again, instead of the expected 1 turn.
• Get forced out by Roar the same turn: Same as above.
• Stay in and use a non Sleep Talk move: You can switch with your sleep turns burnt and can expect to wake up next turn (Not recommended in most cases as turns are a valuable resource)
• Stay in, use Sleep Talk, and then switch: You will have to burn 2 sleep turns once again.

~ This mechanic is not relevant if you choose to stay in, any combination of moves will allow you to wake up normally when staying in.​

- If you were put to sleep by a means other than rest that has variable sleep time, switching out after using Sleep Talk will re-randomize how many sleep turns you will have to take between 1-4.​

​

Blizzard + Hail​

In Generation 3, Hail does not guarantee 100% accurate blizzards.​

​

Explosion​

- Explosion and Self Destruct in ADV halve the opposing Pokemon's defense, giving it effectively doubled BP (A banded Metagross Explosion can KO any non-Ghost Pokemon in the tier from full)​

- This mechanic was nerfed in Generation 5 which is why the move is no longer seen.​

- As mentioned above, Explosion is also used to end turns and regain momentum, as any Pokemon KO will immediately start the end of turn phase.​

Knock Off​

- In Generation 3, Knock Off is a 20 BP move that disables the opponent's item. It got buffed in Generation 6.​

- Knocked Off items are rendered useless rather than removed, so in a niche case where a Pokemon running Thief gets Knocked Off, you cannot Thief a new item.​

Rapid Spin​

- In Generation 3, Rapid Spin is a 20 BP move that removes hazards from your side of the field, it was buffed in Generation 8.​

- It is the only form of hazard removal, Defog did not exist until Generation 4, or remove your own hazards until Generation 6.​

Hidden Power​

- In Generation 3, Hidden Power is a move that varies based on your IVs. For competitive play, it is effectively a 70 BP move of any type you choose, except Normal, at the expense of a few of your IVs.​

- As the base move is a Normal type move, and Normal is considered Physical in Generation 3, you cannot use Mirror Coat against Special typed Hidden Power. Conversely, Counter will always work against Hidden Power.​

Thunder Wave/Volt Absorb​

- In Generation 3, Volt Absorb specifically only gives an immunity to Electric type attacks only, and not status moves, similarly to how Flying types are not immune to Sand Attack. (Oddly enough, Ground types are still immune to Thunder Wave)​

Toxic​

- In Generation 3, Toxic can be learned by nearly every single Pokemon through TM. This was changed in Generation 9 when the distribution was massively reduced. There may be other moves with similar distribution changes due to future TMs/Tutors, or removed due to a lack of TMs/Tutors to teach it.​

Misc. Move Differences​

- Certain moves that are good in later Generations are bad in Generation 3 as they had not received buffs yet, so make sure you check the BP and effect of any move you think is good because of current generation. Notable moves include Future Sight and Outrage.​

- Conversely, some moves that are rarely used in later Generations are common in Generation 3 due to lack of stronger moves available, such as Brick Break over the nonexistent Close Combat.​

Truant​

- If a Slaking comes in on the same turn another Pokemon died to passive damage, it ticks the turn counter for Truant and causes it to Loaf Around the next turn.​

- For example, if your opponent is Leech Seeded and is below 12% HP when you send your Slaking out, it will be KO'd by Leech Seed and cause Truant to trigger the next turn.​

Sturdy​

- Sturdy does not act like a Focus Sash and only protects against moves such as Guillotine and Sheer Cold, which are banned in OU anyways. Sorry Forretress fans.​

Grass Types​

- Grass types are not immune to powder moves such as Stun Spore, Spore, Sleep Powder, etc.​

- The only immunity to status moves that Grass types have is to Leech Seed.​

If there is more that should be added or anything that should be fixed, feel free to reply to me or message me on Discord (dkkoba) and I will update this as soon as I can.

Some more exact examples can be found here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mechanics-differences-between-generations.3668073/post-8553246

 

[Siglut]

You will wake up if either counter is equal to or greater than the number of turns you were put to sleep before you move.

This makes it sound like if you rest -> burn a sleep turn -> sleep talk you will not wake up, when in reality you will.
Some other things, like toxic distribution, I think don't necessarily belong in a post about mechanics changes.
Otherwise, good post and we should probably have a link to this in the tournament discord.

 

[DkKoba]

This makes it sound like if you rest -> burn a sleep turn -> sleep talk you will not wake up, when in reality you will.
Some other things, like toxic distribution, I think don't necessarily belong in a post about mechanics changes.
Otherwise, good post and we should probably have a link to this in the tournament discord.

Toxic is more future proofing (plus some people may genuinely have started in Gen 9 competitively)

I copied the Sleep Talk mech stuff from someone else, I'll look to see what the exact mechanics are with regards to burning sleep turns without switching.

 

[baddummy]

The sleep talk bug mechanic only applies when switching. If you sleep talk and then switch, the last move that wasn't sleep talk will be remembered.
To be clear when I type "waste turn" here I mean you stay in and click anything that isn't sleep talk.
This means:
Rest -> Sleep Talk -> Sleep Talk -> Switch = you're still asleep for 2 more turns (DO NOT DO THIS!!)
Rest -> waste turn -> waste turn -> Switch = You will immediately wake up
Rest -> Sleep Talk -> waste turn -> Switch = You will immediately wake up (high IQ move)
Rest -> waste turn -> Sleep Talk -> Switch = 1 more turn of sleep

I see you've cleared up the explanation now but this is just so nobody has any doubt as to how it works since no other gen has the same quirk.

 

[DkKoba]

I'll just dumb it down instead of trying to explain the why and how

 

[baddummy]

Yeah, it's not necessarily an easy mechanic to grasp but it's disappointing when somebody messes up with their crocune.
Another relevant mechanic to include is that sand takes place at the start of a turn rather than at the end. This lets you check to see who's pokemon is faster before you actually move and also means that, for instance, a Celebi that's at 5% will instantly die when it comes in rather than getting a chance to recover.
Some moves are weaker here than in later gens but see use anyway:
Will-o-wisp is 75% accurate
Giga Drain is 8 pp and 60 bp (weaker than hp grass)

Conversely, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower are very slightly stronger here than in later gens at 95 BP in ADV as opposed to modern gens 90 BP.

I think these are some things that you missed although obviously the list of move changes is very long, I would certainly include sand hitting at the start rather than the end of a turn though.

 

[berry]

Over the past month and a half I've had a great time learning and playing ADV in some off-smogon tours, so I'd like to share my experience dipping my toes into the meta, a little bit that I've learned, and my favorite team that I will probably be spamming. I ended my first season of mushi league 5-1 in the 1.5* division, and I'd like to thank callous and ojr for scouting me out and hyping me up after seeing me lose 1-2 vs sadlysius r1 in adv cup. Callous especially helped me a ton with teambuilding and teaching me how to not straight-up suck at adv, which I appreciate greatly.

Boring But Good by Callous

​

This was a bulky TSS team that I was fed going into Week 2 that really stuck with me- I think the defensive core of Skarmory / Blissey / Suicune is one of the best things to learn to play with / play around when beginning adv just because it's so prevalent and it teaches you very simply and straightforwardly who switches into what. Physdef Suicune might be my favorite mon to use at this point just because it feels like a blanket check or great midground or scouting switch for a giant chunk of the meta, and the mon's ability to threaten or shrug off every ttar, mence, and aero (as well as a ton of other unnamed threats) feels like a great thing to have in your back pocket. Generally, I like this team because it's hard to make a really bad and game-ending play in the early and midgame, which is definitely something that a lot of noob players like me end up doing. By just sticking to your standard switches and picking and choosing when to play aggressively with spiking, claydol, or aero, you can force progress really easily. Generally the team lives up to its namesake: boring but good, but it was definitely a challenge learning to play against some opposing threats, specifically roar cune (try and get in aero) and flygon (try and toxic it and hope to surf it or protect stall it later)

One of the biggest lessons that I learned is how to play proactively- luckily it's much easier with a team like this, but understanding your opponent's options during each turn of the game and just getting practice reps in to make sure you don't run into sets that are completely alien to you was essential to me learning. This team plays really well with putting the opponent on the back foot while not ever being stuck in a do-nothing state: if nothing else, skarm sets up spikes and roars, blissey can twave and chip with boltbeam if faced up against a strong attacker, and suicune can roar and boost itself. Even claydol, who I almost never used offensively in the grand scheme of things, can work its way against opposing claydol, jirachi, gengar, and tyranitar (I honestly never even realized this was a 252+ atk set, I probably ended up using it more like a 252+ def set).

I can't really give any sage advice to brand new players because the only thing separating us is about two months of consistent practice, but I will say that consistent practice and actually playing teams you're comfortable with goes a long way. Swapping from tiers where I just spammed voltturn to a tier with no voltturn is a bit jarring, but you get pretty used to it by just trying to plan and think a couple turns ahead and calcing A LOT. Near the end of the season I started trying to calc for situations that *might* happen in the future just to see in what state I needed to keep my team in (stuff like randomly calcing aerodactyl vs my team if some progress had been made and they had 2 or 3 unrevealed, or +1 tar rock slide vs my cune at whatever range I was so I could try and play proactively against that) but there's still a lot of progress to be made on that front. I'm looking forward to continuing to play adv, it's truly the meta that I'm enjoying the most right now and I feel like I'll be making a lot of progress as I learn the meta more in the next couple of months.

I suppose since this is my 1000th post on smogon I should say something about that, so I appreciate a lot of the time I've spent on this site (both playing pokemon and conversations unrelated). I could have a long list of shoutouts and people who have influenced me, but I will choose not to. Thanks to everyone who's crossed my path up to this point, and cheers to everyone who will cross my path in the future.

 

[Sapherion1]

Recently, thanks to JimothyCool, my love for ADV has been revived and I've jumped back on the ladder. This time with the idea to prove that Nidoqueen is severely underrated in the lead position, I managed to reach top 20 with it. The Queen shines in the lead position with wide coverage and a great matchup into some of the most common leads. It proved itself to be a strong momentum gain. I paired the Queen up with a Beat up Zard and strengthened the back bone of the team with a classic Celebi + Milotic core. Pursuit Ttar and Claydol round out this squad.

​

Team here: https://pokepast.es/bfb02a1166dede50

Some noteworthy things about this team:
- Nidoqueen is particularly good into teams that rely on mixed wall breakers to punch through. Besides icebeam/punch it has very little to fear from most uninvested mixed breakers and can gain momentum or toxic incoming threats. Taunt is for Skarm and to prevent Blissey from healing. Queen is especially annoying for non-icebeam Bliss, poison point makes Bliss not want to Seismic toss and taunt prevents healing or Aroma therapy.

- Zard + Queen has proven itself a great offensive/defensive core. Zard invites Rock slide or Thunderbolt and Queen invites quake, which these can both either shrug off or avoid altogether. In return, ground + ice and Fire + grass make great complimentary offensive types.

- Celebi + Milotic is a time proven staple and is truly a strong defensive core. Ttar on this team needs to be played as late as possible on this team to try and keep sand off the field as long as possible. I have tried other Pursuit users (Metagross, Houndoom) but with the classic amount of Ttar running around anyways, it's no point avoiding the mon.

So is Queen suddenly the new best lead and should it be ranked on the viability ranking? Probably not, but it has proven itself to be effective and to be a good partner for a Charizard or Moltres.

Peace <3

 

[Skarmory]

I'm a novice adv spectator so forgive me if this is common knowledge:

In Jimothy Cool's most recent vid during the match vs shyeep and goose462, shyeep reveals Blissey in the late-mid game. At this time Jimothy remarks that he's surprised that shyeep had a blissey in the back...but I wasn't.

Earlier in the same match, shyeep trapped goose's blissey with Dugtrio and used Beat Up--and one of the hits did just 1% damage (see attached photo)

To my knowledge there is no other viable pokemon in ADV with an attack stat anywhere near as low as Blissey's. In this situation, is it not safe to assume that that damage from beat up effectively confirms a Blissey in the back?

Similarly, upon seeing extremely strong beat up hits, couldn't one infer it's likely to be a ttar/metagross/salamence? This seems a lot less useful because its a more ambiguous clue. But one will know the HP of their own Blissey, and with enough study, could in theory come to know the expected ranges of various pokemon's beat up hits!

Just making sure i'm not the only person who has thought of this (i tried and failed to find anyone discussing this elsewhere online)

 

[bdt2002]

I'm a novice adv spectator so forgive me if this is common knowledge:

In Jimothy Cool's most recent vid during the match vs shyeep and goose462, shyeep reveals Blissey in the late-mid game. At this time Jimothy remarks that he's surprised that shyeep had a blissey in the back...but I wasn't.

Earlier in the same match, shyeep trapped goose's blissey with Dugtrio and used Beat Up--and one of the hits did just 1% damage (see attached photo)

To my knowledge there is no other viable pokemon in ADV with an attack stat anywhere near as low as Blissey's. In this situation, is it not safe to assume that that damage from beat up effectively confirms a Blissey in the back?

Similarly, upon seeing extremely strong beat up hits, couldn't one infer it's likely to be a ttar/metagross/salamence? This seems a lot less useful because its a more ambiguous clue. But one will know the HP of their own Blissey, and with enough study, could in theory come to know the expected ranges of various pokemon's beat up hits!

Just making sure i'm not the only person who has thought of this (i tried and failed to find anyone discussing this elsewhere online)

I don't see why this wouldn't be a reasonable assumption to make. Beat Up's mechanics have been known about in Gen 3 for a while now I feel like and it's honestly kind of surprising this doesn't come up in discussions more often. While extremely matchup-specific, this is just barely a move that new and experienced players alike could make an argument for as being a move that has its place in the metagame. The question remains, though. If you (a player) have a Beat Up Dugtrio and don't want to accidentally reveal your Blissey in the back like this, is Beat Up really worth the moveslot? Whether or not that information for your opponent is worth it would likely come down to if they also have their own Blissey that your Dugtrio would, in an ideal world, attempt to trap and revenge-kill.

 

[Skarmory]

I don't see why this wouldn't be a reasonable assumption to make. Beat Up's mechanics have been known about in Gen 3 for a while now I feel like and it's honestly kind of surprising this doesn't come up in discussions more often. While extremely matchup-specific, this is just barely a move that new and experienced players alike could make an argument for as being a move that has its place in the metagame. The question remains, though. If you (a player) have a Beat Up Dugtrio and don't want to accidentally reveal your Blissey in the back like this, is Beat Up really worth the moveslot? Whether or not that information for your opponent is worth it would likely come down to if they also have their own Blissey that your Dugtrio would, in an ideal world, attempt to trap and revenge-kill.

Blissey is so ubiquitous that virtually every team has to have a plan to deal with it. I think most players would happily kill the opponent's Blissey despite revealing their own in the back every time. The main takeaway imo is I bet a lot of players don't consider the information that Beat Up provides about the opposing team at all and could use it to make better reads.

 

[vapicuno]

I'm a novice adv spectator so forgive me if this is common knowledge:

In Jimothy Cool's most recent vid during the match vs shyeep and goose462, shyeep reveals Blissey in the late-mid game. At this time Jimothy remarks that he's surprised that shyeep had a blissey in the back...but I wasn't.

Earlier in the same match, shyeep trapped goose's blissey with Dugtrio and used Beat Up--and one of the hits did just 1% damage (see attached photo)

To my knowledge there is no other viable pokemon in ADV with an attack stat anywhere near as low as Blissey's. In this situation, is it not safe to assume that that damage from beat up effectively confirms a Blissey in the back?

Similarly, upon seeing extremely strong beat up hits, couldn't one infer it's likely to be a ttar/metagross/salamence? This seems a lot less useful because its a more ambiguous clue. But one will know the HP of their own Blissey, and with enough study, could in theory come to know the expected ranges of various pokemon's beat up hits!

Just making sure i'm not the only person who has thought of this (i tried and failed to find anyone discussing this elsewhere online)

You're absolutely right, but note the following:
1. Beat Up Dugtrio is usually only used on special offense, where the mons behind can be quite predictable. You do not expect to see a Blissey on those teams.
2. There is a 15% variation in move damage, which makes it a bit difficult to infer the mons behind that have base attack that varies within that percentage. For example, the following Pokemon have base attacks

• Jirachi: 100
• Celebi: 100
• Kingdra: 95
• Zapdos: 90
• Suicune: 75

and

• Salamence 135
• Metagross 135
• Tyranitar 134
• Heracross 125

The Pokemon in these categories are all within the range of +/- 15% of each other. So there's a chance you wouldn't be able to tell if the last Pokemon is Kingdra, Jirachi, Zapdos, or Suicune (all of which are very valid lastmons), and similarly you may not necessarily know if it is Heracross or Metagross behind (both also valid lastmons).

This was something that came up in the discussion of Beat Up and nicknames. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-beat-up-revealing-nicknames.3690798/post-8976022

 

[YubelVT]

I will never forgive Jimothy Cool for ruining the low ladder environment

that being said ADV is fun, it's making me hate Suicune but I suppose that's inevitable for any gen where suicune is good. Zapdos is good and I will never run it without HP Grass ever. CB Metagross stronk


idk I'm just trying to avoid the one liner rule help-

 

[bdt2002]

I will never forgive Jimothy Cool for ruining the low ladder environment

that being said ADV is fun, it's making me hate Suicune but I suppose that's inevitable for any gen where suicune is good. Zapdos is good and I will never run it without HP Grass ever. CB Metagross stronk


idk I'm just trying to avoid the one liner rule help-

If it helps anything, I would infinitely rather have this scenario than have those GSC matches I constantly run into that result in a Raikou stalemate. Seriously, you think this low ladder is cringe? Speaking as someone whose favorite OUs are Gens 2 and 3, GSC low ladder is easily worse. You can't go upwards of three games without running into some anti-meta cheese that seems specifically designed to be unbreakable without luck from critical hits and accuracy checks. I can't tell you how many games I've played where I'll have a massive lead and then some bulky RestTalk set comes along and gets blessed by RNG Jesus himself. I'm not joking when I say that last part either, I've lost games to poor Thunder RNG in the Raikou stalemate at least four or five times. And that's just Raikou, too- don't even get me started on Perish Song trap teams and Baton Pass squads with mixed sweepers and sleep spam.

At least ADV has multi-layered Spikes, sand, and the RestTalk nerfs to keep the pace of games up.

 

[YubelVT]

If it helps anything, I would infinitely rather have this scenario than have those GSC matches I constantly run into that result in a Raikou stalemate. Seriously, you think this low ladder is cringe? Speaking as someone whose favorite OUs are Gens 2 and 3, GSC low ladder is easily worse. You can't go upwards of three games without running into some anti-meta cheese that seems specifically designed to be unbreakable without luck from critical hits and accuracy checks. I can't tell you how many games I've played where I'll have a massive lead and then some bulky RestTalk set comes along and gets blessed by RNG Jesus himself. I'm not joking when I say that last part either, I've lost games to poor Thunder RNG in the Raikou stalemate at least four or five times. And that's just Raikou, too- don't even get me started on Perish Song trap teams and Baton Pass squads with mixed sweepers and sleep spam.

At least ADV has multi-layered Spikes, sand, and the RestTalk nerfs to keep the pace of games up.

I'm not saying Low Ladder is *bad* I'm just saying I see too much jank that I can directly trace to Jimmy Cold and his tournament. It's amazing YouTube content but seeing a Butterfree on ladder is almost as bad as losing to said Butterfree rain team... I'm not very good :)

 

[YubelVT]

end games involving 2 blissies might be the single worst thing in any gen of pokemon. It's worse because my blissey has t wave because that's super nice for the mid game

 

[mr.pinklives]

i guess it depends on the moveset
but aromatherapy + soft boiled would ruin me lol

 

[YubelVT]

i guess it depends on the moveset
but aromatherapy + soft boiled would ruin me lol

how on earth do you people find room for these moves. the standard SB IB TW ST set is so good that I can't imagine running anything (except maybe toxic over T Wave) else

 

[mr.pinklives]

how on earth do you people find room for these moves. the standard SB IB TW ST set is so good that I can't imagine running anything (except maybe toxic over T Wave) else

i thought aromatherapy bliss is pretty standard for stall sets

 

[YubelVT]

i thought aromatherapy bliss is pretty standard for stall sets

>stall
ah so ur cringe

 

[vapicuno]

idk I'm just trying to avoid the one liner rule help-

>stall
ah so ur cringe

Blissey pretty much only needs Softboiled. Any other move is up for grabs depending on the team. I recommend reading https://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/pokemon/blissey/

 

[YubelVT]

List of things I would unironically do if I could/wasn't sacrificing important coverage for:
-Wide Lens on DD Mence
-HP Rock on DD Mence
-Baton Pass on Blissey (no CMs we pivot here)
-Psychic on Starmie to nail Gengar
-Damp Swampert

what is y'alls list for this?

 

[vapicuno]

List of things I would unironically do if I could/wasn't sacrificing important coverage for:
-Wide Lens on DD Mence
-HP Rock on DD Mence
-Baton Pass on Blissey (no CMs we pivot here)
-Psychic on Starmie to nail Gengar
-Damp Swampert

what is y'alls list for this?

Hi YubeIVT, this thread is for metagame observation and not for speculation. So please don't bring up mechanics that don't exist.

Note that HP Rock on DDMence doesn't ohko bulkless Zapdos and sometimes you want the flinch to get past a whole bunch of things like Blissey, Starmie, Salamence, full HP Zap etc.

Psychic's good on Starmie. There was a recent game where McMeghan used it with Medicham to surprise KO Gengar.

 

[YubelVT]

dugtrio is funny. sometimes it hoses teams with constant revenge killing and sometimes it revenge kills one thing and then lets DD Mence get a free DD and sweep

 

[vapicuno]

dugtrio is funny. sometimes it hoses teams with constant revenge killing and sometimes it revenge kills one thing and then lets DD Mence get a free DD and sweep

Sorry, this is also not the place to post random comments on the metagame. If you want to get a discussion going, please pose a thoughtful question. If you want help on something fundamental, post on the beginner's lounge thread instead.

Low-impact posts like these distract the viewers from meaningful information and make this thread unworthy of a pin. Hope you understand.

Edit: For example, your comment could have been spun off as a "do you find Dugtrio a very matchup dependent Pokemon?" That would encourage users to engage with you more productively.