OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion

[Ajjc]

well considering mew has explosion, bolt beam, SD with good coverage, and Mew can be customized to check or break through literally every mon, doesnt die to dugtrio, has fire blast which CM sets can love esp against steels

i'm not saying it wouldn't be good, but it has plenty of downsides. with base 100 attacking stats and no real usable STAB means that it really has to set up to be truly threatening. weakness to spikes and sandstorm basically mean that it *has* to run some sort of recovery (which means it can't fit sub). no sub makes it completely susceptible to all types of status and since it's not OHKOing anything without significant investment it's also susceptible to phasers. no special sets are breaking through lax/blissey/ttar, physical sets aren't breaking through Pert/Skarm/forre/milotic. and while it can theoretically be customized to break through most mons, it just takes a little scouting to see what you're up against which is the case for plenty of mons in OU.

i'm not saying it wouldn't be really good, but i don't see how it would be this oppressive force you're making it out to be. like, take salamence for example - better attacking stats, immune to spikes, runs DD, CB, mixed, & defensive wish, amazing ability, and *sets up* on dugtrio, but there are plenty of ways around it. just like there would be plenty of ways around Mew

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

i'm not saying it wouldn't be good, but it has plenty of downsides. with base 100 attacking stats and no real usable STAB means that it really has to set up to be truly threatening. weakness to spikes and sandstorm basically mean that it *has* to run some sort of recovery (which means it can't fit sub). no sub makes it completely susceptible to all types of status and since it's not OHKOing anything without significant investment it's also susceptible to phasers. no special sets are breaking through lax/blissey/ttar, physical sets aren't breaking through Pert/Skarm/forre/milotic. and while it can theoretically be customized to break through most mons, it just takes a little scouting to see what you're up against which is the case for plenty of mons in OU.

i'm not saying it wouldn't be really good, but i don't see how it would be this oppressive force you're making it out to be. like, take salamence for example - better attacking stats, immune to spikes, runs DD, CB, mixed, & defensive wish, amazing ability, and *sets up* on dugtrio, but there are plenty of ways around it. just like there would be plenty of ways around Mew

mew has insane bulk and not being trapped by dug. base 100 attacking stats may not look that good but not when u have high powered moves to launch and coverage for everything. SD sets can just use EQ + explosion to nuke everything, CM sets can go 2 attacks with soft boil which many non blissey teams struggle with and special tar isnt breaking through you nor special tar is doing anything to special sets and you can easily support it with.

SD sets have also no counter period and you can easily boom at worst against the steels which open them up against anything else

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-ou-metagame-discussion.3687814/post-8968852

Mew was also talked about here

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-ou-metagame-discussion.3687814/post-8975182

and here

It shows how mew has infinite coverage and infinite versitility that you cannot prep for every single set it has and that just would show how restraining it is against it. Snorlax can be worn down with repeated hits, anything but toxic blissey is setup fother as mew can just recover any attack off, tar can also be worn down and mew can just 6-0 you from the back which you also do not know what set it is and if you come in and it SD's Uh oh you are in big trouble..... Pert can also be worn down and just be boomed on worst case scenario .... and in best case scenario you weakened the pert with spikes and with ttar that it can no longer be an effective check to SD mew.. and what if the mew comes out to be special and absolutely nukes you out of the park. CB is also a set which means hoping to check it is gonna be a nightmare if you failed to predict the CB set. What about taunt or sub punch? those are all sets. Mew just has unrivaled utility and many teams would need to need so many counters just to cover mew

 

[McMeghan]

ADV OU is perfect as is, no need to tinker with it by unbanning an unknown force (and probably metagame shaking) like Mew.

You can discuss it or entertain it for your sake, but Mew being free is just not gonna happen unless something drastically changes in mentality or within the tier.

 

[asterat]

ADV OU is perfect as is, no need to tinker with it by unbanning an unknown force (and probably metagame shaking) like Mew.

You can discuss it or entertain it for your sake, but Mew being free is just not gonna happen unless something drastically changes in mentality or within the tier.

ADV OU is perfect as it is... what about sleep? Is hypnogar really perfect?

 

[DkKoba]

ADV OU is perfect as it is... what about sleep? Is hypnogar really perfect?

60%

 

[CALLOUS]

My thoughts on unbanning Mew below-

No.

 

[Astamatitos]

ADV OU is perfect as it is... what about sleep? Is hypnogar really perfect?

I dont remember of any major tournament games in recent memory where hypnogar was an oppressive and broken force. Do you have any replays at hand? Or is this thread just going to devolve to anyone person announcing their preferences towards tiering.

 

[CyberOdin✝]

In my case I really like Hypnogar, properly combined with an excellent moveset, it can be key, but like everything, it has its risks, in fact I used it in important tournaments and it has worked for me, this is a simple opinion, not to be taken as a reference general.

 

[Broduderman]

Hey football fans. After playing this tier for about 2 years and playing every type of offense- TSS, Mag Off, CMSpam, Mixed, spike teams without Ttar (CB mence teams p much) and Stall alike. Having tried many Tyranitar Sets I think I have this to say:



I think CB Ttar sucks. Well, as sucky as the best pokemon can be.

Pros: This thing hits disgusting numbers. Obviously 134 Atk is one of the highest in the tier but I think people are desensitized to it. The damage done to the fat of the tier is nuts.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 294-346 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Hidden Power Bug vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Claydol: 248-292 (76.5 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 230-271 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

additionally, most people don't expect Band so the extra push of damage is quite surprising, and is obviously good without the surprise.

The Cons: This thing is soooooo slow. yeah I know this isn't a revelation, but my issue isnt that Ttar is slow, but how being slow really hinders this set. Ttar being slow isnt usually an issue because it either (a. has the ability to become faster or (b. has the bulk to withstand the faster threat. CB Ttar doesnt really have either of those features, as it cant boost speed and is very frail; bulk Ev's are pretty whatever considering its gonna take Spikes damage and little chip switching in. 221 is also an awkward speed tier. alot of mid pace mons hover around the 236-245 range, and being unable to outspeed slow CB Meta/0 speed base 100's is super unfortunate.

My second and biggest issue with CB Ttar is that the other Banded pokemon are more... good? I dont know how else to say it. CB Meta has an excellent typing with huge natural bulk and at very worst, can trade one-for-one thanks to boom. Mence/Gon require mag support but are spike immune, with intimidate and quake slide resistance giving these semi frail pokes good switch in opportunities respectively. Ttar also competes with Aero as a CB rock type, which outspeeds the entire meta and can always RS flinch it's way to victory.

Oh and I didnt even mention that CB Tar is completely destroyed by Dugtrio. Which, it is.

TL;DR CB Ttar is still a powerful threat but I think it's worse than it's more common sets and has a lot of competition with other excellent Banded pokemon.

 

[Yak Attack]

I was autogenerating some speed tiers for Hoenn Gaiden, when I noticed I could do it for [Gen 3] OU, too: this gives you an idea of what outspeeds what, given either max Speed (+ Nature), max Speed (neutral Nature), or 0 EVs. It isn't meant to be comprehensive in the slightest (and we all know 252+ +2 Jolteon isn't a notable benchmark by any means :P).

788, Jolteon (252+ +2) (Agility)

788, Aerodactyl (252+ +2) (Agility)

766, Swellow (252+ +2) (Agility)

744, Sceptile (252+ +2) (Agility)

718, Jolteon (252 +2) (Agility)

718, Aerodactyl (252 +2) (Agility)

700, Dodrio (252+ +2) (Agility)

698, Swellow (252 +2) (Agility)

678, Sceptile (252 +2) (Agility)

656, Charizard (252+ +2) (Dragon Dance)

656, Zapdos (252+ +2) (Agility)

656, Salamence (252+ +2) (Dragon Dance)

638, Dodrio (252 +2) (Agility)

612, Moltres (252+ +2) (Agility)

598, Charizard (252 +2) (Dragon Dance)

598, Zapdos (252 +2) (Agility)

598, Salamence (252 +2) (Dragon Dance)

591, Jolteon (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

591, Aerodactyl (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

591, Crobat (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

590, Articuno (252+ +2) (Agility)

590, Kingdra (252+ +2) (Agility, Dragon Dance)

574, Gyarados (252+ +2) (Dragon Dance)

574, Swellow (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

568, Dragonite (252+ +2) (Agility, Dragon Dance)

558, Moltres (252 +2) (Agility)

558, Dugtrio (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

558, Alakazam (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

558, Sceptile (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

541, Starmie (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

541, Raikou (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

538, Articuno (252 +2) (Agility)

538, Kingdra (252 +2) (Agility, Dragon Dance)

538, Jolteon (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

538, Aerodactyl (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

538, Crobat (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

525, Dodrio (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

525, Gengar (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

525, Tauros (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

525, Jumpluff (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

525, Espeon (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

524, Skarmory (252+ +2) (Agility)

524, Metagross (252+ +2) (Agility)

523, Swellow (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

522, Gyarados (252 +2) (Dragon Dance)

518, Dragonite (252 +2) (Agility, Dragon Dance)

508, Dugtrio (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

508, Alakazam (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

508, Sceptile (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

508, Kadabra (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

502, Scizor (252+ +2) (Agility)

493, Starmie (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

493, Raikou (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

492, Charizard (252+ +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

492, Zapdos (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

492, Typhlosion (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

492, Miltank (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

492, Entei (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

492, Celebi (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

492, Slaking (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

492, Flygon (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

492, Salamence (252+ +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

492, Jirachi (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

486, Tyranitar (252+ +2) (Dragon Dance)

480, Lapras (252+ +2) (Dragon Dance)

480, Porygon2 (252+ +2) (Agility)

478, Skarmory (252 +2) (Agility)

478, Metagross (252 +2) (Agility)

478, Dodrio (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

478, Gengar (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

478, Tauros (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

478, Jumpluff (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

478, Espeon (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

475, Jynx (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

475, Houndoom (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

463, Kadabra (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

459, Moltres (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

459, Zangoose (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

458, Scizor (252 +2) (Agility)

448, Charizard (252 +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

448, Zapdos (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

448, Typhlosion (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

448, Miltank (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

448, Entei (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

448, Celebi (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

448, Slaking (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

448, Flygon (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

448, Salamence (252 +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

448, Jirachi (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

442, Tyranitar (252 +2) (Dragon Dance)

442, Articuno (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

442, Heracross (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

442, Kingdra (252+ +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

442, Suicune (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

438, Lapras (252 +2) (Dragon Dance)

438, Porygon2 (252 +2) (Agility)

433, Jynx (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

433, Houndoom (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

430, Gyarados (252+ +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

430, Milotic (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

426, Venusaur (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

426, Dragonite (252+ +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

426, Blaziken (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

426, Gardevoir (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

426, Medicham (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

418, Moltres (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

418, Zangoose (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

409, Smeargle (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

409, Claydol (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

403, Articuno (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

403, Heracross (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

403, Kingdra (252 +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

403, Suicune (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

394, Jolteon (252+)

394, Aerodactyl (252+)

394, Crobat (252+)

393, Magneton (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

393, Cloyster (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

393, Skarmory (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

393, Ludicolo (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

393, Breloom (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

393, Metagross (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

391, Gyarados (252 +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

391, Milotic (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

388, Venusaur (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

388, Dragonite (252 +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

388, Blaziken (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

388, Gardevoir (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

388, Medicham (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

383, Swellow (252+)

376, Vaporeon (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

376, Umbreon (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

376, Scizor (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

373, Smeargle (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

373, Claydol (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

372, Dugtrio (252+)

372, Alakazam (252+)

372, Sceptile (252+)

364, Tyranitar (252+ +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

361, Starmie (252+)

361, Raikou (252+)

360, Weezing (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

360, Lapras (252+ +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

360, Porygon2 (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

360, Swampert (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

359, Jolteon (252)

359, Aerodactyl (252)

359, Crobat (252)

358, Magneton (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

358, Cloyster (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

358, Skarmory (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

358, Ludicolo (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

358, Breloom (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

358, Metagross (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

350, Dodrio (252+)

350, Gengar (252+)

350, Tauros (252+)

350, Jumpluff (252+)

350, Espeon (252+)

349, Swellow (252)

343, Vaporeon (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

343, Umbreon (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

343, Scizor (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

343, Machamp (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

343, Exeggutor (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

343, Ursaring (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

343, Blissey (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

339, Dugtrio (252)

339, Alakazam (252)

339, Sceptile (252)

339, Kadabra (252+)

331, Tyranitar (252 +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

329, Starmie (252)

329, Raikou (252)

328, Weezing (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

328, Lapras (252 +1) (Dragon Dance, Salac Berry)

328, Porygon2 (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

328, Swampert (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

328, Charizard (252+)

328, Zapdos (252+)

328, Typhlosion (252+)

328, Miltank (252+)

328, Entei (252+)

328, Celebi (252+)

328, Slaking (252+)

328, Flygon (252+)

328, Salamence (252+)

328, Jirachi (252+)

327, Chansey (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

327, Donphan (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

327, Hariyama (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

327, Regirock (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

327, Regice (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

327, Registeel (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

319, Dodrio (252)

319, Gengar (252)

319, Tauros (252)

319, Jumpluff (252)

319, Espeon (252)

317, Jynx (252+)

317, Houndoom (252+)

313, Machamp (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

313, Exeggutor (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

313, Ursaring (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

313, Blissey (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

310, Marowak (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

310, Armaldo (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

309, Kadabra (252)

306, Moltres (252+)

306, Zangoose (252+)

299, Charizard (252)

299, Zapdos (252)

299, Typhlosion (252)

299, Miltank (252)

299, Entei (252)

299, Celebi (252)

299, Slaking (252)

299, Flygon (252)

299, Salamence (252)

299, Jirachi (252)

298, Chansey (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

298, Donphan (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

298, Hariyama (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

298, Regirock (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

298, Regice (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

298, Registeel (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

296, Jolteon (0)

296, Aerodactyl (0)

296, Crobat (0)

295, Articuno (252+)

295, Heracross (252+)

295, Kingdra (252+)

295, Suicune (252+)

294, Rhydon (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

294, Forretress (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

289, Jynx (252)

289, Houndoom (252)

287, Gyarados (252+)

287, Milotic (252+)

286, Swellow (0)

284, Venusaur (252+)

284, Dragonite (252+)

284, Blaziken (252+)

284, Gardevoir (252+)

284, Medicham (252+)

283, Marowak (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

283, Armaldo (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

279, Moltres (252)

279, Zangoose (252)

276, Dugtrio (0)

276, Alakazam (0)

276, Sceptile (0)

273, Smeargle (252+)

273, Claydol (252+)

269, Articuno (252)

269, Heracross (252)

269, Kingdra (252)

269, Suicune (252)

268, Rhydon (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

268, Forretress (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

266, Starmie (0)

266, Raikou (0)

262, Magneton (252+)

262, Cloyster (252+)

262, Skarmory (252+)

262, Ludicolo (252+)

262, Breloom (252+)

262, Metagross (252+)

261, Gyarados (252)

261, Milotic (252)

261, Slowbro (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

261, Snorlax (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

261, Steelix (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

259, Venusaur (252)

259, Dragonite (252)

259, Blaziken (252)

259, Gardevoir (252)

259, Medicham (252)

256, Dodrio (0)

256, Gengar (0)

256, Tauros (0)

256, Jumpluff (0)

256, Espeon (0)

251, Vaporeon (252+)

251, Umbreon (252+)

251, Scizor (252+)

249, Smeargle (252)

249, Claydol (252)

246, Kadabra (0)

244, Dusclops (252+ +1) (Salac Berry)

243, Tyranitar (252+)

240, Weezing (252+)

240, Lapras (252+)

240, Porygon2 (252+)

240, Swampert (252+)

239, Magneton (252)

239, Cloyster (252)

239, Skarmory (252)

239, Ludicolo (252)

239, Breloom (252)

239, Metagross (252)

238, Slowbro (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

238, Snorlax (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

238, Steelix (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

236, Charizard (0)

236, Zapdos (0)

236, Typhlosion (0)

236, Miltank (0)

236, Entei (0)

236, Celebi (0)

236, Slaking (0)

236, Flygon (0)

236, Salamence (0)

236, Jirachi (0)

229, Vaporeon (252)

229, Umbreon (252)

229, Scizor (252)

229, Machamp (252+)

229, Exeggutor (252+)

229, Ursaring (252+)

229, Blissey (252+)

226, Jynx (0)

226, Houndoom (0)

223, Dusclops (252 +1) (Salac Berry)

221, Tyranitar (252)

219, Weezing (252)

219, Lapras (252)

219, Porygon2 (252)

219, Swampert (252)

218, Chansey (252+)

218, Donphan (252+)

218, Hariyama (252+)

218, Regirock (252+)

218, Regice (252+)

218, Registeel (252+)

216, Moltres (0)

216, Zangoose (0)

209, Machamp (252)

209, Exeggutor (252)

209, Ursaring (252)

209, Blissey (252)

207, Marowak (252+)

207, Armaldo (252+)

206, Articuno (0)

206, Heracross (0)

206, Kingdra (0)

206, Suicune (0)

199, Chansey (252)

199, Donphan (252)

199, Hariyama (252)

199, Regirock (252)

199, Regice (252)

199, Registeel (252)

198, Gyarados (0)

198, Milotic (0)

196, Venusaur (0)

196, Dragonite (0)

196, Blaziken (0)

196, Gardevoir (0)

196, Medicham (0)

196, Rhydon (252+)

196, Forretress (252+)

189, Marowak (252)

189, Armaldo (252)

186, Smeargle (0)

186, Claydol (0)

179, Rhydon (252)

179, Forretress (252)

176, Magneton (0)

176, Cloyster (0)

176, Skarmory (0)

176, Ludicolo (0)

176, Breloom (0)

176, Metagross (0)

174, Slowbro (252+)

174, Snorlax (252+)

174, Steelix (252+)

166, Vaporeon (0)

166, Umbreon (0)

166, Scizor (0)

163, Dusclops (252+)

159, Slowbro (252)

159, Snorlax (252)

159, Steelix (252)

158, Tyranitar (0)

156, Weezing (0)

156, Lapras (0)

156, Porygon2 (0)

156, Swampert (0)

149, Dusclops (252)

146, Machamp (0)

146, Exeggutor (0)

146, Ursaring (0)

146, Blissey (0)

136, Chansey (0)

136, Donphan (0)

136, Hariyama (0)

136, Regirock (0)

136, Regice (0)

136, Registeel (0)

126, Marowak (0)

126, Armaldo (0)

116, Rhydon (0)

116, Forretress (0)

96, Slowbro (0)

96, Snorlax (0)

96, Steelix (0)

86, Dusclops (0)

 

[badabing]

what possessed you to do this lmfao

 

[Alpha Atom™]

I would like to know people's opinions on what to do as Tyranitar against a Lead Zapdos. What would you do for each different set viable for Ttar. What would be your first reaction ?

 

[IllusionLaser]

I would like to know people's opinions on what to do as Tyranitar against a Lead Zapdos. What would you do for each different set viable for Ttar. What would be your first reaction ?

If you're running an offensive set like DD or cb, then I would only stay in and attack if you have enough bulk investment to survive a dugtrio EQ, as losing your ttar instantly to a BP is an awful feeling. If you don't, switch to a Pokémon that can either outspread zap or take two hits and have a strong enough offensive threats in return such as blissey, salamence, metagross, snorlax, etc etc. Keep in mind that there's always the overlying issue that BP on lead zap is a bitch to deal with and there are few GOOD switch ins when the threat of dugtrio is always looking.

As mixed, ice beam seems like a no brainer as you cover a lot of the offensive switch ins to tar like mence, dug or flygon and you don't really care about being twaved either.

Pursuit is tricky because unless ur running ice coverage, you don't have anything adequately threatening and u really don't like having to take two or even three tbolts to take out zap. If you have wish support I wouldn't be against staying in, but otherwise I would switch out.

These responses all generally depend on the team structure you're using, though.

 

[johnnyg2]

I would like to know people's opinions on what to do as Tyranitar against a Lead Zapdos. What would you do for each different set viable for Ttar. What would be your first reaction ?

Wanted to reply to add some more context to the above answer. It’s an excellent question, as Tyranitar is the most common lead in the tier and one of its best traits is that it forces Zapdos leads into an uncomfortable situation of trying to switch into or sacrificing into an unknown tyranitar. The short answer is it depends on the metagame and the rest of your team, but generally if you can hit it super effectively you do except in special cases.

First and foremost, if you’re tar, even if you’re walled and have to crunch, you should pretty much never switch out of zap unless it already knows it can beat you and you need to switch. Zapdos lead will pretty much never hard baton pass into Dugtrio on tar in high level play, as losing it instantly to an ice beam or earthquake read is way too risky, never mind that fact that dug often fails to KO a full hp bulky tar. If the opposing zapdos’s goal is to remove tar, they will typically use Thunderbolt or more rarely, Hidden power fighting, to die to rock slide and then trap the tar w Dugtrio(or more rarely, take their damage and weaken tar throughout the game).

Typically, if you’re a standard physical tar or choice band, the play is to rock slide in case zap tries to sacrifice itself. If zap sacrifice is less common, another idea is to either earthquake trying to catch Metagross or hard focus punch trying to catch pert, skarm, or another water hard. Double Edge as CB is also not a bad play either. If you’re a more aggressive set like Dragon Dance or have substitute w moves like focus punch, hp bug, or eq, using your set up move is a solid idea, as even if zap does stay in and hits you, you can still remove it and you can do a lot of damage to less solid tar checks like meta, milo, cune, or dol at +1 or behind a sub. Bulkier Zaps will sometimes survive rock slide, but it will be pretty much neutralized for the rest of the game as rest Zap will pretty much never stay in on tar

if you’re mixed or a special tar and have ice beam, you click ice beam. That way you threaten common tss pivots w your coverage. If you do not have ice beam, you can click fire blast or flame, as this hits the common baton pass pivot into Metagross very hard. This is a solid play if you’re a mixed set w rock slide, as even if they stay in, you can finish it off w rock slide. In the worst case scenario, you click crunch and do good damage to any pivot your opp might go to other than Skarm. The reason it’s harder to make reads as a mixed or special set without rock slide is if zap decides to stay in, it can very well outdamage you (esp if you’re crunch as it typically fails to 3HKO bulky zap) and beat you if you don’t have rock slide.

a lot also depends on what you’re trying to do w your team. If you have another sweeper like aero in the back, getting instant damage on pert or other pivots w hp grass or focus punch is awesome, and making those reads early can get you ahead. If your team really needs tar defensively, making those early games reads can backfire, as it will take more damage trying to remove something it should check easily

 

[Alpha Atom™]

Wanted to reply to add some more context to the above answer. It’s an excellent question, as Tyranitar is the most common lead in the tier and one of its best traits is that it forces Zapdos leads into an uncomfortable situation of trying to switch into or sacrificing into an unknown tyranitar. The short answer is it depends on the metagame and the rest of your team, but generally if you can hit it super effectively you do except in special cases.

First and foremost, if you’re tar, even if you’re walled and have to crunch, you should pretty much never switch out of zap unless it already knows it can beat you and you need to switch. Zapdos lead will pretty much never hard baton pass into Dugtrio on tar in high level play, as losing it instantly to an ice beam or earthquake read is way too risky, never mind that fact that dug often fails to KO a full hp bulky tar. If the opposing zapdos’s goal is to remove tar, they will typically use Thunderbolt or more rarely, Hidden power fighting, to die to rock slide and then trap the tar w Dugtrio(or more rarely, take their damage and weaken tar throughout the game).

Typically, if you’re a standard physical tar or choice band, the play is to rock slide in case zap tries to sacrifice itself. If zap sacrifice is less common, another idea is to either earthquake trying to catch Metagross or hard focus punch trying to catch pert, skarm, or another water hard. Double Edge as CB is also not a bad play either. If you’re a more aggressive set like Dragon Dance or have substitute w moves like focus punch, hp bug, or eq, using your set up move is a solid idea, as even if zap does stay in and hits you, you can still remove it and you can do a lot of damage to less solid tar checks like meta, milo, cune, or dol at +1 or behind a sub. Bulkier Zaps will sometimes survive rock slide, but it will be pretty much neutralized for the rest of the game as rest Zap will pretty much never stay in on tar

if you’re mixed or a special tar and have ice beam, you click ice beam. That way you threaten common tss pivots w your coverage. If you do not have ice beam, you can click fire blast or flame, as this hits the common baton pass pivot into Metagross very hard. This is a solid play if you’re a mixed set w rock slide, as even if they stay in, you can finish it off w rock slide. In the worst case scenario, you click crunch and do good damage to any pivot your opp might go to other than Skarm. The reason it’s harder to make reads as a mixed or special set without rock slide is if zap decides to stay in, it can very well outdamage you (esp if you’re crunch as it typically fails to 3HKO bulky zap) and beat you if you don’t have rock slide.

a lot also depends on what you’re trying to do w your team. If you have another sweeper like aero in the back, getting instant damage on pert or other pivots w hp grass or focus punch is awesome, and making those reads early can get you ahead. If your team really needs tar defensively, making those early games reads can backfire, as it will take more damage trying to remove something it should check easily

Thank you so much for the detailed answer! I use a team which my lead is Zapdos so I wanted to know what the opposing Ttar should and can do against my Zapdos. I use a weather removal team with Suicune and Snorlax as sweepers and removing sand is a really big boost to their longevity as a whole. I also use a dugtrio as stated in your answers and yes I usually want to get Ttar out of the way FAST. This helps me understand how my opponent can react to my moves and this helps A TON. Again Thank you so much for the answer and have a good day!

 

[johnnyg2]

Thank you so much for the detailed answer! I use a team which my lead is Zapdos so I wanted to know what the opposing Ttar should and can do against my Zapdos. I use a weather removal team with Suicune and Snorlax as sweepers and removing sand is a really big boost to their longevity as a whole. I also use a dugtrio as stated in your answers and yes I usually want to get Ttar out of the way FAST. This helps me understand how my opponent can react to my moves and this helps A TON. Again Thank you so much for the answer and have a good day!

Of course man happy to help, if you have any more questions at all feel free to pm me or post in here!

 

[dk]

can someone explain what mr. registeel's niche is? why would you use this thing over wishtect rachi exactly? is it his handsome bendy arms, perhaps? i dont really understand this thing's incline

 

[Redless]

1. Astarachi
Mr. Registeel is very bulky even compared to an Astarachi. Seismic toss is offensively different (I would say better) than Astarachi's offensive moves.

2. Defensive Meta
Mr. Registeel is better into Zapdos, Starmie, and other special threats. Mr. Registeel has paralysis access, unlike Mr. Metagross.

Interested in others' takes on this too as I'm no Registeel expert.

 

[Ancien Régime]

i am beyond late on this and i'm not really a pokemon player anymore but my view on unbanning mew in adv ou is that while it'd be hilarious to try for a week it is actually fucking insane take seriously like i am literally unretiring for 5 minutes just to say "wtf no" to this

like keep in mind celebi is top tier ou with the same base stats spread and 7 weaknesses and dramatically less coverage (imagine if Celebi could Surf that T-Tar switchin or T-Bolt that Skarmory switchin) and many of its builds get oneshot by dugtrio

like, what do you do against +1 calm mind mew exactly? knowing that you probably just lose if it gets +2. You have so, so few options, and the biggest problem with the later gen metagames is that you have so few options to deal with threats

 

[Zacpz]

i am beyond late on this and i'm not really a pokemon player anymore but my view on unbanning mew in adv ou is that while it'd be hilarious to try for a week it is actually fucking insane take seriously like i am literally unretiring for 5 minutes just to say "wtf no" to this

like keep in mind celebi is top tier ou with the same base stats spread and 7 weaknesses and dramatically less coverage (imagine if Celebi could Surf that T-Tar switchin or T-Bolt that Skarmory switchin) and many of its builds get oneshot by dugtrio

like, what do you do against +1 calm mind mew exactly? knowing that you probably just lose if it gets +2. You have so, so few options, and the biggest problem with the later gen metagames is that you have so few options to deal with threats

I will likely be hosting an off site tour with this in a couple of months. PM me if you are interested

 

[Sapphire Star]

I don't really understand why people are running so many Skarm without Toxic. I understand why people want drill peck to pressure claydol. But if you lose toxic Skarm turns into a very passive pokemon. Without toxic so much stuff can stay in on you safely (Aero, physical tyranitar, etc). You also cant toxic pokemon like swampert which comes up all the time as an important play. I feel like I would basically never cut Toxic (or spikes). If people are playing no toxic skarm I just feel so much safer spamming pokemon like Aerodactyl.

 

[dk]

I don't really understand why people are running so many Skarm without Toxic. I understand why people want drill peck to pressure claydol. But if you lose toxic Skarm turns into a very passive pokemon. Without toxic so much stuff can stay in on you safely (Aero, physical tyranitar, etc). You also cant toxic pokemon like swampert which comes up all the time as an important play. I feel like I would basically never cut Toxic (or spikes). If people are playing no toxic skarm I just feel so much safer spamming pokemon like Aerodactyl.

skarm without drill peck is ungood vs loom hera refresh dol etc

skarm without toxic is ungood vs recover mie and the slew of other scenarios you described

skarm without protect is ungood in that it goes from being a nigh unkillable brick shithouse of a pokemon w/ tect to being a surprising wear-susceptible one without it

skarm needs ww/roar and spikes unless you're a crackhead, so those two slots are non-negotiable unless you fell for the phazeless skarm meme awhie back

as you can see, there isn't really a choice where skarm can magically do everything since all 3 of peck/tox/tect are great. imo it boils down to personal preference and remaining team slots. personally with how much i hate fat things that are passive vs fighters i rarely ever bring peckless skarm on ladder because i'd rather not donate even harder than i already do since bad mus vs fighters feel especially miserable. then tect just makes it much more of a bitch; drill peck/tox feels so frail. sometimes you just put up with needing to play 5d chess vs fatmie for a generally better skarm

 

[Redless]

I think peck is skarm's third best move and the main reasons are Forretress and Gengar. Both are costly to allow in for free and both are punished by peck.

Toxic is more droppable imo. There's a few reasons why, but what it comes down to is that toxic is much more punishing when it lands. Therefore your opponent can't really afford to leave shit in when you could have tox as this will often lose them the game if you do have it. Whereas playing a cavalier game around peck is fine because a forre or gar can live a peck or two so they can act like it doesn't exist and force skarm to prove it's real without betting their whole lives on it.

Against low ladder and bads I'd never drop tox though bc they'll often throw into it. And even against better ppl it's down to what your team needs, ofc. Just my 2c.

 

[Broduderman]

Here are some Pokémon sets I've been running that I think are the tits:



220 HP/ 12 Atk / 252 SpA Quiet Nature
[Crunch / Pursuit / Earthquake / Rock Slide]

When I first saw this set I didnt see the point; once Ttar is burned from switching into Gar/Molt half of its moveset is useless. After actually using it though, its surprisingly versatile both as a trapper and as a standard bulky Tar. Even uninvested rock slides are enough to chunk the special threats that dont resist rock and EQ keeps Meta and Ttar from switching in for free. One could definitely run more speed or attack but I like HP to take Gengar Tbolt in Spikes.



252 HP / 80 SpD or Def / 176 Spe Nature: Timid

[Leech Seed / Recover / Substitute / Baton Pass]

The only things that can shrug off leech Seed is opposing Celebi and rapid spinners, but besides that (or random grass types) this set is a total pain in the ass without strong stab super effective hits. I've been using it on skarmmag as a lead because it scouts Ttar, Meta, Zapdos and easily BPs into magneton to trap Skarm/Forre. Playing with it has also shown me that so long as it isnt against a CM HP fire Bi, other celebi arent doing too much in return either. Everytime I use celebi it always surprises me in how based it is.



(normal bliss EVs whatever) Bold Nature

[Soft Boiled / Seismic Toss / Ice Beam / Sing]

Snorlax is what you use begrudgingly on offense to not be passive like blissey... until Sing Bliss comes along. Sing means that 55% of the time, YOU gain tempo on Tar/Meta/Lax that can easily be taken advantage of with DD Tar or Metagross. For mag offense, having something that can actually switch into Zapdos and Starmie without dying to a round of Spikes and Sand is game changing. Obviously you run a lot of risk fishing for a coin flip, though if you're running PhysMag then you're not really looking for consistency anyways.

None of these sets are mine or even new, but I hope this brought awareness to some cool sets.

 

[oopsalldeoxys]

I think peck is skarm's third best move and the main reasons are Forretress and Gengar. Both are costly to allow in for free and both are punished by peck.

Toxic is more droppable imo. There's a few reasons why, but what it comes down to is that toxic is much more punishing when it lands. Therefore your opponent can't really afford to leave shit in when you could have tox as this will often lose them the game if you do have it. Whereas playing a cavalier game around peck is fine because a forre or gar can live a peck or two so they can act like it doesn't exist and force skarm to prove it's real without betting their whole lives on it.

Against low ladder and bads I'd never drop tox though bc they'll often throw into it. And even against better ppl it's down to what your team needs, ofc. Just my 2c.

I disagree heavily. Peck makes skarm so easy to pivot into for any somewhat bulky team, while toxic makes skarm genuinely terrifying to switch into. Peck is just so flaccid and doesn't make progress into anything that isn't either immensely passive or frail. Toxic puts a permanent timer on ttar, non rest Zapdos, swampert and more and also limits the stay of blissey and even the most defensive of celebi, something that drill peck cannot accomplish. And the pokemon immune to toxic? Drill peck doesn't do anything to them either. I'm not saying dp is useless or bad by any means I just think toxic is better on 75% of teams.