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Allowing NFEs in UU

Lee said:
I think the main problem with allowing NFEs into lower tiers is the risk that UU will just develop into a water-downed version of OU. Personally, I turn to UU when I have grown a little stale with OU.

Allowing the likes of Hippopotas means that many of the OU tactics will still be prevalent in UU and the difference between the two metagames will become slight. Weaker Pokemon, same style of play.

Lets say I become a little disillusioned with Hippowdon and Garchomp running riot everywhere, so I make a UU team and go into that environment for a while only to see Hippopotas and Gabite everywhere. Sure, the opponent is disadvantaging himself because Sandslash and Gligar or whatever would be a much more potent combination, but the principle remains. Do we really want UU to be a mini OU? Or do we want it to be a thriving metagame by itself?

In BL, when you're generally fighting slower things with less Special Defence, the difference between Kadabra/Alakazam and Haunter/Gengar is much smaller.

I think the list of permitted NFEs will need to be looked at carefully. Obvious things like Pikachu, Vigoroth, Scyther and Trapinch are cool but other things like Magneton need to be looked at. Sure, he's generally inferior but that little extra speed does give him something to work with, especially with all the 80 basers running around.

However, I am against the likes of Gabite, Shelgon, Dragonair or whatever for the reasons stated above.
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So basically, you don't want to laugh out load as your opponent uses a pokemon that isn't a physical wall or threat to set up Sandstorm with a pokemon that isn't a physical sweeper to abuse it.

Give me a reason why anyone would use Gabite over Sandslash. Is the 82 Base speed really worth being clobbered by any attack from any attacker? 68/65/55 is depressing. Sandslash at least has 75/110/55. With more attack (100) and Swords Dance and Night Slash (better than Shadow Claw), Sandslash abuses Sand Veil just as well as Gabite. Gabite's only real advantage would be to run a kind of UU ChainChomp set, but 50 SA is really bad, especially when most of the walls are special, and Chainchomp takes the EVs out of Speed.

The pre-vos of OU threats are just too weak to be effective. Anyone worrying about OU-lite is kidding themselves.

We've had UU for 3 gens. How many Dragonairs, Pupitars, Shelgons, and Metangs have you seen? Gabite will be no different than his predecessors.
 
We've had UU for 3 gens. How many Dragonairs, Pupitars, Shelgons, and Metangs have you seen? Gabite will be no different than his predecessors.
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Didn't Misty just say:

There are users who are major proponents of the "no NFEs in UU" argument, which has been the standard policy in all generations;
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Everyone knows that, read the thread Deck Knight.

And didn't I just say in my post that Sandslash was much more potent that Gabite? I really didn't need you to write up a post explaining why Sandslash is better than Gabite then, did I?

I think there is room for Electabuzz, Magmar, Murkrow etc because they do have advantages over their successors, just like when I mentioned Magneton on the end of my post. Gligar, although entirely inferior to Gliscor, has also earned his right to compete in UU because he was a staple, as the OP rightly says.

I think that saying some are okay and some aren't okay is a little anal though, so after thinking it over, I guess allowing NFEs should be good, in principle. After a few days, people will have realised that attempting to emulate OU strategies is gonna get them raped everytime. And the smart people won't even attempt it in the first place. I'm in two minds tbh...whatever tier I'm playing in, it just feels a little patronising when the opponent uses an NFE. But as some obviously deserve to be used, I'd rather we did take the anal route and allowed some, but disallowed most.
 
God Bless the UU naivite of Smogon. As if it's the only internet forum and everyone follows our rules and tier listing as holy writ. Our UU-centric analyses are half-hearted, half-assed efforts because Smogon is for competitive battling, and Nintendo never holds UU tournaments.

The only NFE's that have ever been officially banned from UU play are Kababra, Chansey, Scyther, and Haunter, for balance reasons. They were moved up to BL. The reason you don't see Dragonair, Pupitar, Metang, and Shelgon is because they are bad, not banned. I played ADV UU heavily, outside of the much balleyhooed Smogon Forums.

There is zero purpose for banning NFE's from UU. Banning a group of mostly inferior pokemon, even compared to UU staples, is ridiculous. Didn't we have a big go-round about reinstating Double Team a few months ago? This is not even close to the level of unbalancing Double Team brings.

Now, if we're talking NU, NFE's outside of Trapinch have always been banned there, and Trapinch might have to be rethought. With Trick Room and Life Orb, Trapinch seems far too deadly for NU. But that can be decided later. For UU, "OU-lite" charges are unfounded.
 
I don't see why having some of the same tactics be viable in UU would make it "OU lite" since there are already certain tactics viable in both UU and OU, in fact probably a lot, although I have done very little UU playing so I don't want to make any grand statements about that. But really, think about it. Say Dragonair got in. So? It can dragon dance and outrage, but look at its stats. 84 attack? 70 speed? This thing absolutely cannot run all over stuff the way Salamence/Dragonite can when DDing in OU. The tactic could concievably be used, I think, but it would be much harder to set up, and therefore it is not going to be a constantly used tactic.

Hippopotas will not dominate UU the way sandstream dominates OU because hoppopotas's stats are balogna. 68 HP and 78 defense are not walling things. Using it for sandstream will at best become a fringe tactic that could be employed effectively but certainly could not dominate the game.

I really don't see how any of the NFEs beyond the ones suggested for banning would be a big deal, and frankly I would be more inclined to allow them in at first and then ban them if they get out of hand (except chansey I guess since it's obvious how that would turn out). But really I think that including NFEs would make me a lot more inclined to want to play UU since some Pokemon I am really keen on would then be involved.
 
Its still Sandstream......

The major reason I am not too fond of DP OU is that people use Garchomp, Gliscor and a Sandstreamer and Sandveil hax the hell out of people. I HATE the idea of Sandstream in UU.

At least hail is new, and Ice types mostly suck anyway, so Abomasnow isn't that much of a threat. But I don't want Sand Hax OU Garchomp to become Sand Hax UU Sandslash.
 
gmax said:
Its still Sandstream......

The major reason I am not too fond of DP OU is that people use Garchomp, Gliscor and a Sandstreamer and Sandveil hax the hell out of people. I HATE the idea of Sandstream in UU.

At least hail is new, and Ice types mostly suck anyway, so Abomasnow isn't that much of a threat. But I don't want Sand Hax OU Garchomp to become Sand Hax UU Sandslash.
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Lapras is beastly in UU, and Walrein really loves either Thick Fat or Ice Body.

Never mind aforementioned Piloswine. Snow Hax anyone?
 
I think anything that isn't Haunter, Kadabra, Chansey, etc should just be slapped with a UU tag, this includes most if not all NFEs like former mainstays Electabuzz, Yanma, etc. From there you get a decent list of UU Pokemon but the question still remains on Pokemon like Flareon, Sudowoodo, etc, but those can be figured out on a later date. Then you get former OU Pokemon like Dusclops and vastly improved UU Pokemon like Gligar which ruin the fun.

Slow and methodical testing seems like the best way to remove anything that is overpowered. Start banning from the top, Ubers go, Garchomp goes, Tyranitar goes, etc, until you get down to the borderline UU Pokemon, if you can second guess it being put into BL and up, test it in the current UU environment, if it is indeed overpowered after in battle testing and creating a counters list then ban it. If somethings counters get banned then it gets banned as well. I really think this is the best way to do his, a methodical approach so things don't slip through.

I'm all for NFEs being in UU, but if it does become "OU lite" then my mind could indeed change. But having a NFE UU and a NFE-less UU is a big no-no in my opinion. Too many metas.

So in short, treat everything like its UU right now, if its vastly overpowered ban it, if the UU meta becomes Dusclops, Gligar, Yanma, Electabuzz, Magmar, etc then I think its worth looking into banning NFEs. I'm for NFEs now, but I also think it needs testing.

EDIT: I think all infinite Weather Pokemon like Abomasnow should be banned from UU though.
 
Deck Knight said:
Lapras is beastly in UU, and Walrein really loves either Thick Fat or Ice Body.

Never mind aforementioned Piloswine. Snow Hax anyone?
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I never really understood wht the first 2 weren't already BL, especially Walrein. That thing could dominate UU in Advance, and it hasn't gotten any worse. Ice typing sucks, but it is still overpowered for UU.

And Piloswine is just lol. Its lack of resistances and not so uber defenses mean that its already 2HKOd by just about anything.
 
I think that NFE's should be involved in UU. In fact, I've played like that since day one, as I don't believe in banning Pokemon to some tier no-one plays (I mean, when was the last time YOU played NFE?), when they are actuaaly useable, and can provide a much-needed team member to a team that might need it.

Also, OU-lite makes me laugh. Almost no pre-evo'ed pokemon play the same sets as their evos. Go on, let's see a Chainbite. Or maybe a MagiBuzz (lol... Electabuzz and Magikarp...) Or possibly a Pupiboah. (sounds like a disease) No fo those ever happen. And they aren't going to. So give NFE's a break.
 
I would love to use Pichu in UU :P

I say NFE should be able to play in UU unless they unbalance it
but then again that would be alot of testing
 
My opinion:

Allow previous UU/NU Pokemon that got an evolution. They either fit a different niche (Electabuzz is faster etc), or simply "fit in" to the metagame still. I dislike the idea of using ou-lites, such as Shellgon, Cranidos etc. As Obi said, I like tyhe idea of UU being completely different to OU.

Bans (again imo):
Chansey
Kadabra
Haunter
Dusclops
Rhydon
Magneton
Porygon2

Should be allowed no question:
Gligar
Electabuzz
Magmar
Nosepass
Lickitung
Murkrow
Misdreavous
Sneasel
Tangela
Togetic
Yanma
Nosepass
Piloswine
Vigaroth*
Pikachu*
Scyther*
Trapinch*

What I would like to see 'banned', but wouldn't be too bothered if they weren't:
Everything else.
 
I think that all of the 493 should be tiered such that pretty much every one is viable in one level or another.

This of course means throwing the current tier system out the window in its entirety, but with all the new evolutions in DP and the fact the system is now a decade old, its probably time to revise it.

Ubers still works, so does OU, however below that we are basically removing a good 300 Pokemon from existence by tiering them such that using many of them will just lose you games.

IMO the Borderline group needs to be heavily thickened, between UU and BL you'd probably want 3 groups. As in upper BL pokes that are sometimes seen in UU and then those that are almost never seen. To mix with the lower BL group you could have UUs that creep into BL play. Then split UU so that you have your usual UU crowd, and then the low end with NU creepers. Then finally split up NU to allow for the pure NU metagame and then lower again for rubbish and first evos that are pretty much never seen anywhere.

For example; The Pokemon lists show some examples of Pokemon that float between tiers.
Ubers
> Metagross, Blissey
OU
>
BL
> Gligar, Pikachu
UU
> Raticate
NU
> Luvdisc
> Sunkern

Taking that above list you now have 10 levels of play that would each have a unique set of Pokemon. Each Pokemon would be a member of the lowest groups its allowed to be played in, and would be eligible for use in that group and all higher groups.

Sure it'd be a lot of effort to redefine everyone, but afterwards I'm sure it'd do a lot towards diversifying play and ensuring that every Pokemon has a place where it is viable. Just because something may be outclassed by its evolution, doesn't mean it shouldn't be represented in an arena of opponents of lower overall prowess.

Its not like lower tiers require any less skill, just because Natu doesn't look menacing doesn't mean using its any less interesting to use, in fact check out its move pool, DP gave it some interesting new tricks.

I'm aware my idea has plenty of holes in it, but rather than shooting it and adding more holes, feel free to throw in your own thoughts and fix my flawed brainchild.
 
Kimi3013 said:
The list in the "Battle Me" topic lists him as Uber, just checked.
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Wynaut along with his big brother, Double Team (without Baton Pass) and maybe OHKO moves will be tested on Competitor last I heard. With the changes made to Shadow Tag, Struggle and Pursuit, he certainly isn't dangerous/boring. The current standard rules are pretty much the exact same as they were in ADV, with a few minor changes to the ubers list.
 
Familiar Trainer said:
Wynaut along with his big brother, Double Team (without Baton Pass) and maybe OHKO moves will be tested on Competitor last I heard. With the changes made to Shadow Tag, Struggle and Pursuit, he certainly isn't dangerous/boring. The current standard rules are pretty much the exact same as they were in ADV, with a few minor changes to the ubers list.
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Wynaut+Focussash+Destonybond= Cheap KO that you can't escape from :)
 
I'd really have no issues with NFEs allowed in UU; I can not see any REAL reason to ban them. I mean, if somebody comes up with a NFE-genius moveset, then there might have to be a ban placed on it after the fact, but I can really see NO meaning in banning NFEs at this time... I'd even wager to say that they could get their own tier BELOW UU because they just kinda' suck.
 
Why not allow all NFEs except the banned ones? Maybe someone would find a use for Poliwhirl in UU since it has a faster Hypnosis than Poliwrath and Politoed. Allowing certain NFEs and not others is silly.

I'm referring to SirSpanky's post, btw.
 
I think I do have an odd and slightly biased mentality when discussing this topic. Aa weird combination of dislikes for OU-lites, and the want to not remove any Pokemon originally in the UU metagame.

Any Pokemon I listed that I wanted banned are too strong. The Pokemon listed that I want to allow use of either have a different use/niche than their OU counterparts, or just fitted in well last generation and at first glance, won't really change much in this.

My final list of everything is mainly just to try and stop the Metangs, Pupitars etc. I think your suggestion of Poliwhirl though is fine, and something I just overlooked. With its speed it plays completely different to its evo, and I would see no wrong in using it.
 
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