AAA Almost Any Ability

What do you think, how good will Zeraora be in AAA and which abilities will it run?

Tough Claws is an obivous choice, Download might be viable for mixed (probably scarfed) sets and even Refrigerate can be used for the pysical Boltbeam coverage, which in tandem with its Fighting type moves provides perfect neutral coverage.
 
I was thinking mixed esurge could be a solid choice, with the set of plasma fists, cc, hp ice, tbolt. With tbolt it can break through Buzzwole and some other physdef stuff.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Maybe if Plasma Fists overrides the -ate abilities' effects... It could be good, but I doubt it works like that.

Anyways, Zeraora seems relatively fast but sadly its another poor victim that is outsped by the likes of Mega Zam, which leaves it in pretty bad situation against it. I see Zeraora running Refrigerate with Frustration/Return for a better Ice coverage and making by extension a cool BoltBeam coverage, along with CC and probs Fake Out to stall out turns in TR or weather or whatever you can think of. Tho yeah, that fella is gonna have to fight Koko for that sweet spot.
 
So.... I'm not really the type that endorses gimmicks, but I think this set is actually very effective at what it does, given the fact that some of the Pokemon it's designed to counter usually require multiple counters, not just one. Now, a blanket check like this guy can definitely pull its weight on stall, balanced and BO archetypes.


Turtonator @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Flamethrower
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Tail

Turtonator's stats are, for the most part, terrible, but it can blanket check Victini, Thundurus, Entei, and Xurkitree very well. It counters Victini, but struggles a little against Tinted and Z Celebrate Victini. It's very reliant on its AV to properly address Xurk and Blacephalon. For this reason, it's important to scout for Koff if you're relying on Turtonator to counter said special attackers. Dragon Tail makes short work of Nasty Plot Xurkitree, dealing ok-ish damage, while Earthquake can finish it off in the next encounter. The EVs are pretty much self explanatory. I haven't labbed calcs too much, but the 56 Def + the Relaxed nature grants a magic number, while the rest is dumped into its SpD. I figured its HP doesn't need to be an odd number because of its access to Regenerator. Its moveset is basically the only one worth using. It goes without saying that Turtonator will succumb to offensive pressure with rocks, so a lot of support is needed. Try it out and tell me what you think!

252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Turtonator: 122-144 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Turtonator: 134-158 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 252+ SpA Life Orb Xurkitree Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Assault Vest Turtonator: 237-279 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Assault Vest Turtonator: 135-160 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(Just avoid rocks.... if you can.)
 
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7almostanyability-746931607
Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Solar Beam
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
Does Chandy have a reason to be used in the fact that it can use Solar Beam and energy ball, as well as having much greater bulk than Blacephalon in this meta?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7almostanyability-746936704
Hey man,

The main problem that I see with this set is that Volcarona outclasses it. Quiver Dance serves to boost its speed too while getting Fire Blast and Solar Beam with Desoland too. The niche that Chandelure would have is a Ghost Stab over Volcarona, but even then, that niche is limited as Volcarona can always use Bug Buzz to hit Psychic types. Thus, the only thing that Chandelure can hit that Volcarona can't hit Super-Effectively would be other Ghost types, which will be proving difficult for Chandelure to beat anyway due to the super effective stab against it.

Thus, unfortunately, I don't think that there is much of a use for this because Volcarona exists.

Here would be the set for Volcarona.
Volcarona @ Leftovers
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Ground]/Bug Buzz/Psychic

Note: Item is variable, as is the last move.

Hope that helps!
 
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Disclaimer One: I am well aware that OMPL sign ups just started, but I am going to post this just for food for thought while we watch the tournament unfold.
Disclaimer Two: This is long. At the very least, please read the sections that I did not hide in tabs so that you at least get an idea of what I am saying, just without more specific points.

Now anyone who is a friend of mine knows, I have had a major issue with Regen Cores for a while now. I think that they are extremely stupid, as you can shrug off pretty much any damage you want, as soon as the opponent’s Pokémon that can pressure it are gone. Upon switching out, the user gains 33% of their HP back, and with a partner, they can continually do that, giving stall teams a massive advantage by still giving Pokémon the chance to heal without burning any PP. However, there are other issues with Regenerator, such as RegenVest. This is just a stupid concept, as if you give any pokemon with decent special defense the RegenVest combo, they become a very solid Special wall. Magearna is the threat that everyone knows, but Manaphy uses this well too, as does Muk, and even Meloetta and Jirachi can do it too. I even just got a stall team with Turtonator on it with RegenVest to give it survivability. RegenVest makes the ability so splashable and decently viable to any pokemon with the SpD stat to make use of it. Then there are other pokemon like Doublade or Ferrothorn which appreciate the passive recovery of this ability, while their specially defensive counterparts (primarily RegenVesters) appreciate the defense that they bring to the table alongside them.

Now yes, there a little bit of counterplay to Regen Cores. Hazards, for example, can help to pressure that recovery. A single layer of spikes will take off 12% of that 33% each time a pokemon comes in, but it can be really difficult to keep spikes up with the constant presence of Magic Bounce and Defog. Then there is Magnet Pull. This can be very effective at trapping Magearna, Ferrothorn, Doublade and other Steel type pokemon that run regenerator; however, this only works for Steel type Pokémon. Pursuit can also help the situation by punishing the opponent from switching out; however, this does not force the opponent to stay in the way that Mag Pull does, thus making it more difficult to eliminate these threats, and it doesn’t prevent the regenerator recovery if they manage to survive pursuit. The only other way to handle Regen Cores is to simply overpower it, but this can be difficult in itself with the support that other mons can provide for the core that slowly wear down the offensive mon rather than the defensive core.

Thus, skillful counterplay against Regen Cores is really hard to come by (and even harder to use successfully), and I think that it is definitely a major part of what makes stall so good right now in AAA. The problem is that Regenerator itself is not inherently broken, so we can’t just outright ban it, but Regen Cores are frankly uncompetitive in the metagame. Thus, when I was asking around for potential solutions to this problem, several times the idea of a Single Ability Clause for AAA came up. I quite like this idea as it would successfully eliminate Regen Cores that aren’t good for the metagame, while also causing several other positive changes by limiting various other splashable abilities.

First off, a single ability clause would help to control Poison Heal. Similarly to Regenerator, Poison Heal helps to give recovery to pokemon that naturally don’t have it outside of leftovers. However, unlike Regenerator, this ability also requires a Toxic Orb to make it consistent, and Toxic Orb does not boost defenses the way that an Assault Vest or an Eviolite would as common items for Regenerator mons. Also, protect can help improve the recovery, and is highly recommended, even though not entirely required. This ability can be put onto most pokemon that lack recovery, such as Cresselia, Snorlax, Tapu Fini, Manaphy, and our own Laxpras even made a team once abusing PH Sylveon because the ability is that good. Along with protect for constant scouting, PH cores become very good at defeating choice mons that are common on more offensive teams. Now, obviously PH is good for recovery, but it is really good especially for set up mons. I am sure all of us have lost to PH Snorlax, PH Tapu Fini, or some other PH mon of the kind because they are that good.

A single ability clause would also limit Adaptability. Adaptability is arguably one of the most splashable abilities in the entire game due to the fact that every single Pokemon has a Stab move of choice. We have seen how this ability can be problematic as Terrakion was banned from AAA in part because of it. Other threats like Zygarde and Mamoswine are majorly notable for the power they bring with their Adaptability sets. However, it is difficult to argue that adaptability is a broken ability considering that Tough Claws is waiting right there in the wings to provide a similar boost. Changing the Stab bonus from 1.5 to 2 means that Adaptability gives a 1.33x boost in power of Stab moves. In contrast, Tough Claws gives a 1.3x boost in power to Contact moves. There are some differences in the utility of the abilities, though. Most importantly, Adaptability also works for special mons, like Tapu Lele or Latios, which does give it the edge over Tough Claws. On the flip side though, Tough Claws can boost more than just the stab moves that a mon gets, things like Poison Jab or Iron Head which are particularly beneficial for Dragon types that aren’t commonly Poison or Steel types as they give those moves a boost to help against Fairies in a way that adaptability would not. By a implementing a single ability clause, it would force the user to choose which singular mon is the most important pokemon to have the ability, be it Mamoswine, Zygarde, Tapu Lele, etc, and thus limiting the easily spamable power boost that Adaptability can provide.

On a similar vein to adaptability, Tinted Lens is pretty splashable too, though arguably, not to the extent of Adaptability. Some coverage options, like the coveted Ghost/Fighting coverage, are perfect right now by themselves, and thus wouldn’t need the benefit that Tinted Lens could provide. However, every pokemon appreciates spamming one specific stab move more than having to switch between coverage moves, so even though things like Victini have good coverage in V-Create and Bolt Strike, it can still make use of Tinted Lens, allowing it to hit threats like Tapu Fini for strong damage with V-Create, making it less important what the user clicks.

Now, less on the track of splashability, but rather on a more general note, by implementing a single ability clause, it encourages a wiser use of other abilities that may not be entirely commonplace. Weather/Terrain teams would have to be more careful with their setter, as now they’d only have one to play with. The same can be said of Surge Surfer/Swift Swim/Unburden for the speed boost that Weather/Terrain teams love. However, outside of specific team comps, this also applies to generally more offensive abilities like Mold Breaker (and friends), as well as defensive ones like Unaware, Magic Bounce, and others. On the flip side, it encourages creativity with more uncommon abilities. Things like Mega Launcher and Steelworker are really good, granting a 1.5x boost in select situations just from the ability itself, but they rarely see usage because the more standard options are picked instead. Freeing up space from repeat abilities allows more of these sets to be used without harming the team the way they might by opting out of Adaptability or Tinted Lens.

In conclusion, changing to a single ability clause will definitely cause a shift in the metagame. Stall would definitely be hurt by this as now they wouldn’t be able to run double PH or Regen (even though eliminating regen cores was the original intent of the post). That will make building for stall more difficult, as threats such as Naganadel, Xurkitree, and Manaphy are still around, and it might be extremely difficult to find checks and counters to all of them, not even just for stall, but in general. However, for stall to still be strong, users will have to become more creative. Things like Grassy Surge, while severely underrated right now, might rise in usage as it helps against some ground attacks while also providing passive recovery to teammates. Stall will still be viable due to its amazing defensive abilities, though the options may be smaller than that of offensives styles of gameplay, it’s just that now other types of teams have a better chance against it. Now, this isn’t to say that offensive teams get off free either. They would be going through some significant losses too. Adaptability and Tinted Lens now have to used sparingly, and Weather/Terrain teams would have to build differently as well to accommodate only one setter and to properly protect said setter. All types of gameplay will be affected by this decision; however, I think that it would be in our best interest overall to make this change and hopefully promote a better metagame where creative teambuilders of any style of gameplay can come in and have a chance at winning.

I really think that we should implement this change; however, because it takes time for people to adjust to major shifts like those that this would cause, I am aware that this probably wouldn't happen until after OMPL, thus, I will be watching for specific replays that demonstrate this point.
 

Funbot28

Sé que a ti te gustan mis labios de fresa
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Hello, its your resident council member here deciding to leave some opinions on the current metagame that reflect my own personal opinions and by no means depict the thoughts of the entire council as a whole.

Zygarde is too strong

I personally feel Zygarde to be too potent at the given moment due to the versatility between all it's viable sets whether it be Substitute + Dragon Dance, Sub Coil, Adaptability, lure Aerilate sets, etc... Zygarde can easily beat most of it's checks depending on what set it chooses to run. A mixture between its bulk, typing, and great movepool which gives access to superb moves such as Thousand Arrows and Dragon Dance + Coil enable Zygarde to not only be the premium setup sweeper in the current meta, but also leans it over as an incredibly splashable threat which requires specific checks and counters depending on the set it chooses to run (ie: Unaware Ferro checking PH while Intimidate Mew can check Magic Bounce). I feel Zygarde restricts a bit too much which is why I believe it is a prime candidate for a suspect. Some weaknesses to note however is that sometimes it can be pressed for moveslots as it would want to run a combination of Sub / DD / Coil / Glare / Toxic / Protect / Espeed at times and that checks do exist to it in general, but my main gripe is the lack of overall checks to the majority of sets it can run. I propose a Zyg suspect before the commencement of OMPL in hopes of potentially making the AAA metagame a bit more enjoyable.

The prospect of further restricting the ability clause is an interesting one and definitely something I would be open to as well as I have been noticing the stacking of certain abilities such as Poison Heal and Magic Bounce have also been restricting teambuilding to a certain degree. However, I would like to deal with the former issue I proposed first as I find it to be more pressing at the given moment.
 
I haven't played much AAA, so I don't know if I have anything useful to say. I might as well try.
One of the things I think Zygarde does is force stall users to use Buzzwole as their ground resist, because it's the only good one that isn't flying type. Unfortunately, Buzzwole's weaknesses are worse than those of other ground resists, which especially hurts in AAA because Magearna and Alakazam are so common and can so easily take advantage of Buzzwole's forced switches. Of course, any other ground resist loses to Zygarde. When thinking about team building, I often find myself choosing to either check Zygarde or check Magearna, but not both, and of course teams with both are even harder to stall against. So if you guys want to make stall better, then ban Zygarde (or Magearna, I don't really care which one). If you guys want stall to remain bad, then don't ban anything.
 
I haven't played much AAA, so I don't know if I have anything useful to say. I might as well try.
One of the things I think Zygarde does is force stall users to use Buzzwole as their ground resist, because it's the only good one that isn't flying type. Unfortunately, Buzzwole's weaknesses are worse than those of other ground resists, which especially hurts in AAA because Magearna and Alakazam are so common and can so easily take advantage of Buzzwole's forced switches. Of course, any other ground resist loses to Zygarde. When thinking about team building, I often find myself choosing to either check Zygarde or check Magearna, but not both, and of course teams with both are even harder to stall against. So if you guys want to make stall better, then ban Zygarde (or Magearna, I don't really care which one). If you guys want stall to remain bad, then don't ban anything.
Stall is already excellent, and frankly needs to be taken down a peg or two as it easily dominates the metagame. Buzzwole is a fantastic pokemon already considering its amazing bulk, and saying that Zygarde forces stall to run Buzzwole is absurd. With or without Zygarde, Buzzwole would still be on stall teams as its Unaware and Intimidate sets are fantastic and provide a lot of things for stall. It is easily better than Skarmory (the only reason that one would give the upper hand to Skarmory is via Defog, which Buzzwole does not have). What makes Buzzwole even better is its 139 Atk stat, which allows it to run offensive sets like Triage and Tinted Lens too. Buzzwole is a staple on Offensive and Defensive teams for a reason; Zygarde just gives a player even more reason to do it, but it not the reason behind it.

As for Zygarde, yes, we really do need to suspect it. The thing is absolutely ridiculous and it is so hard to counter. In fact, even checking it can be a problem. Buzzwole, Mew, and Tapu Fini are all commonly cited pokemon that can check Zygarde, but no single set from any of them can check everything that Zygarde has to offer. Buzzwole falls to ZDraco Meteor, which is common on Adaptability sets just for Buzzwole. Intimidate Mew can take on Band Adaptability Zygarde, but it falls to Set Up Zygarde, while Unaware Mew can take on Set up, but falls to Adaptability (it can run Worry Seed too take on Poison Heal, though Subs foil that). And then Fini falls to Band Adaptability Thousand Arrows. It is undeniable that these three pokemon are the best for handling Zygarde, but the mon is just so versatile that it can take on each of them one on one depending on the set it is running. Thus, in order to truly counter Zygarde, a player has to run at least 2 of them for a better chance of guaranteeing something that walls the set that Zygarde is running.

This however, is ignoring other things that Zygarde can run. Albeit, these are far less prominent than Magic Bounce, Adaptability, and Poison Heal, but they have their own niches. Zygarde is blessed with Extreme Speed, so it can easily run one of the -Ates (though it would primarily run Pixi or Aeri to pair perfectly with Thousand Arrows). It can run Tinted Lens to get at those bulkier Grass types like Tapu Bulu that would wall Thousand Arrows and ZDraco Meteor. It can run Mold Breaker to defeat the Unaware mons that one might try to run to counter it. Heck, one of our own sample teams gives players a RegenVest set because Zygarde has enough special defense to pull that off too, and can actually do it "admirably" without "being affected by Magnet Pull (ahem, Magearna) or Pursuit (ahem, Meloetta)" (Quoted from the description right beneath the sample team).

The problem is that Zygarde is just way too versatile and can support any given team is numerous ways, and I really think that it needs to be suspected (and banned). Now, I do know that there will be hesitation about suspecting it right before OMPL starts. I understand this hesitation, but I still think it is a good idea to suspect it before OMPL starts because banning it would alleviate teambuilding greatly, allowing for more versatility during OMPL, thus giving us all the chance to discover more viable sets from the tournament as tournaments like this are the best place to see what really works and what does not.
 
Intimidate Mew can take on Band Adaptability Zygarde, but it falls to Set Up Zygarde, while Unaware Mew can take on Set up, but falls to Adaptability (it can run Worry Seed too take on Poison Heal, though Subs foil that).
Quick question: Can't they bypass substitute with skill swap? A poisoned Zygarde without poison heal is almost always a forced switch, even if it has unaware instead of insomnia.
 
Stall is already excellent, and frankly needs to be taken down a peg or two as it easily dominates the metagame. Buzzwole is a fantastic pokemon already considering its amazing bulk, and saying that Zygarde forces stall to run Buzzwole is absurd. With or without Zygarde, Buzzwole would still be on stall teams as its Unaware and Intimidate sets are fantastic and provide a lot of things for stall. It is easily better than Skarmory (the only reason that one would give the upper hand to Skarmory is via Defog, which Buzzwole does not have). What makes Buzzwole even better is its 139 Atk stat, which allows it to run offensive sets like Triage and Tinted Lens too. Buzzwole is a staple on Offensive and Defensive teams for a reason; Zygarde just gives a player even more reason to do it, but it not the reason behind it.
Buzzwole does not in any way outclass Skarmory; the two don't even fill that similar of roles, and in many teams will be run alongside each other. In addition to defog being an absolute requirement for stall to carry on at least one of its pokemon (preferably 2+), Skarmory also has great tools like Whirlwind (pairs exceptionally well with unaware), an immunity to toxic, and a steel typing that lets it take on threats that buzzwole could never hope to check such as Dragonium Garchomp and Landorus-T.
 
They absolutely can be compared, especially in terms of being a defensive wall. For Unaware or Intimidate, options that both pokemon can use on stall teams, Buzzwole is a superior option as it has better bulk in comparison to Skarmory, and it provides an actual Fighting resist which majorly helps out Chansey. That fighting resist also makes it better able to take on the attacks of offensive threats like Tinted Lens Buzzwole, without intimidate, which have been known to threaten Stall teams in general. Now of course, they can be run alongside each other (I have a team right now with both), but Buzzwole is the primary defensive wall, getting the ability (Unaware or Intimidate), that I deem more important for my team. Not to mention that Buzzwole doesn't have to run Shed Shell just to escape to Magnet Pull. This also means that Buzzwole can also switch in to Knock off threats easier (without even considering the resist to Dark that Buzzwole has) without having to risk being trapped later on.

Then, in terms of defog, this is where Zygarde's presense makes itself even more known as Tapu Fini and Mew are generally chosen first for Defog due to their utility in generally managing and taking out Zygarde, something that Skarmory cannot do. Again, this isn't to say that two, or maybe even all three, can't be run together (because again, you are right, stall does appreciate more than one defogger), but, quite frankly, Skarmory finds itself in a place similar to that of Hippowdon: a good unaware/intimidate wall with Whirlwind utility, but unable to do much to the threats that it is supposed to wall if they carry Magic Bounce, as neither Brave Bird (or if you wish, Iron Head) nor Earthquake will be doing too much when used by a defensive wall.
Unaware is not a particularly viable ability on buzzwole; its appearance on resources is an outdated attempt at completion because it doesn't serve any role that stall teams need and has no niche on any other sort of team. In addition to failing to check most of the threats skarmory covers, such as Landorus-T and Stakataka, it doesn't even check the tinted Lens Buzzwole sets that you use as the comparison, because it ignores superpower's attack drop: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Buzzwole Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 194-228 (46.5 - 54.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

More important still is its weakness to toxic, as without the virtue of steel typing, any offensive threat can simply toxic it; as such, it doesn't even act as a Zygarde answer, as it is readily bypassed by Toxic and SubTail and Choice Band offensive (252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Zygarde Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 204-242 (48.9 - 58%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Skarmory can even check bulky Zygarde sets despite thousand arrows, so it isn't even a choice between two pokemon that zygarde breaks, but between a non answer and a situational answer in the opposite direction. Buzzwole's niche on stall teams comes from its Intimidate, Magic Bounce, and to some extent Flash Fire sets, which don't particularly compete with standard unaware skarmory.

Your last paragraph is similarly misinformed on AAA stall teams and their playstyle/goals. If you are relying on active attacks to break your opponents team, you're playing an extremely frail Hyper offense where Skarmory can still weigh in (it has the same attack as talonflame does, for instance), you have a bulky setup wincon such as Tapu Fini (Buzzwole doesn't qualify for this role usually, as it isn't particularly good at it), or you fucked up. I would suggest trying your hand at some high level AAA games; while ladder is still experiencing a dearth of active talent, there should be some people looking for replays for OMPL tryouts that you can get to show you the ropes.
 
Unaware is not a particularly viable ability on buzzwole; its appearance on resources is an outdated attempt at completion because it doesn't serve any role that stall teams need and has no niche on any other sort of team. In addition to failing to check most of the threats skarmory covers, such as Landorus-T and Stakataka, it doesn't even check the tinted Lens Buzzwole sets that you use as the comparison, because it ignores superpower's attack drop: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Buzzwole Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 194-228 (46.5 - 54.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

More important still is its weakness to toxic, as without the virtue of steel typing, any offensive threat can simply toxic it; as such, it doesn't even act as a Zygarde answer, as it is readily bypassed by Toxic and SubTail and Choice Band offensive (252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Zygarde Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 204-242 (48.9 - 58%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Skarmory can even check bulky Zygarde sets despite thousand arrows, so it isn't even a choice between two pokemon that zygarde breaks, but between a non answer and a situational answer in the opposite direction. Buzzwole's niche on stall teams comes from its Intimidate, Magic Bounce, and to some extent Flash Fire sets, which don't particularly compete with standard unaware skarmory.

Your last paragraph is similarly misinformed on AAA stall teams and their playstyle/goals. If you are relying on active attacks to break your opponents team, you're playing an extremely frail Hyper offense where Skarmory can still weigh in (it has the same attack as talonflame does, for instance), you have a bulky setup wincon such as Tapu Fini (Buzzwole doesn't qualify for this role usually, as it isn't particularly good at it), or you fucked up. I would suggest trying your hand at some high level AAA games; while ladder is still experiencing a dearth of active talent, there should be some people looking for replays for OMPL tryouts that you can get to show you the ropes.
Yes, Landorus is one of the exceptions that is noteworthy that Skarmory can check that Buzzwole cannot, as is Stakataka. However, Buzzwole is bulkier than Skarmory, and thus can handle many of the same threats, barring those that take advantage of the typing difference between Zygarde and Skarmory (ie, Lando and Stakataka). However, anyone who knows Pokemon would know that that is to be expected when comparing pokemon of similar roles of different types. As for your comment about Unaware, that is still Buzzwole's strongest ability, and you will see that when the new VR comes out here soon.

As for Zygarde, I have already discussed the faults of Buzzwole in that Matchup as a reason to ban Zygarde. Though Buzzwole can be Toxic'd (though not all that common on Zygarde), Skarmory fares worse vs Zygarde due to Thousand Arrows (252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 154-182 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO). The move that is on 100% (barring bad sets) of Zygarde's can nearly 2hko Skarmory in the air. Outrage and Toxic are not nearly as common (being seen on about 50% of Zygarde's at higher tiers) meaning that there is no guarantee that your calc would even be relevant. As for Bulkier sets of Zygarde, Buzzwole can handle those too (0 Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 188 HP / 68 Def Zygarde: 232-276 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). So yes, Zygarde can toxic, but Buzzwole has a guarenteed 2hko on the most physically defensive variant seen of Zygarde at higher tiers, seen about 10% of the time according to statistics. Not to mention the fact that Buzzwole does get Taunt, so it can block Toxics from slower threats.

And no, my last paragraph is not misinformed on the playstyles and goals of AAA. If Skarmory and Hippowdon are facing threats carrying magic bounce, the only thing that they themselves can do to stop that set up mon is to attack them with their stab move of choice. They can't whirlwind or they will be phazed out instead, Hippo can't toxic or it will just be poisoned itself. All they can do is use their primary stab and heal. Now, that can be enough if the set up mon doesn't do enough damage, but it simply makes the walls sitting ducks if they cannot.

Also, if you must comment on my experience in order to try and prove your point, then maybe that's evidence you need more proof to support your claim instead. Someone as well versed as you in other metagames should be able to keep the argument objective, rather than personal.
 
Yes, Landorus is one of the exceptions that is noteworthy that Skarmory can check that Buzzwole cannot, as is Stakataka. However, Buzzwole is bulkier than Skarmory, and thus can handle many of the same threats, barring those that take advantage of the typing difference between Zygarde and Skarmory (ie, Lando and Stakataka). However, anyone who knows Pokemon would know that that is to be expected when comparing pokemon of similar roles of different types. As for your comment about Unaware, that is still Buzzwole's strongest ability, and you will see that when the new VR comes out here soon.

As for Zygarde, I have already discussed the faults of Buzzwole in that Matchup as a reason to ban Zygarde. Though Buzzwole can be Toxic'd (though not all that common on Zygarde), Skarmory fares worse vs Zygarde due to Thousand Arrows (252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 154-182 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO). The move that is on 100% (barring bad sets) of Zygarde's can nearly 2hko Skarmory in the air. Outrage and Toxic are not nearly as common (being seen on about 50% of Zygarde's at higher tiers) meaning that there is no guarantee that your calc would even be relevant. As for Bulkier sets of Zygarde, Buzzwole can handle those too (0 Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 188 HP / 68 Def Zygarde: 232-276 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). So yes, Zygarde can toxic, but Buzzwole has a guarenteed 2hko on the most physically defensive variant seen of Zygarde at higher tiers, seen about 10% of the time according to statistics. Not to mention the fact that Buzzwole does get Taunt, so it can block Toxics from slower threats.

And no, my last paragraph is not misinformed on the playstyles and goals of AAA. If Skarmory and Hippowdon are facing threats carrying magic bounce, the only thing that they themselves can do to stop that set up mon is to attack them with their stab move of choice. They can't whirlwind or they will be phazed out instead, Hippo can't toxic or it will just be poisoned itself. All they can do is use their primary stab and heal. Now, that can be enough if the set up mon doesn't do enough damage, but it simply makes the walls sitting ducks if they cannot.

Also, if you must comment on my experience in order to try and prove your point, then maybe that's evidence you need more proof to support your claim instead. Someone as well versed as you in other metagames should be able to keep the argument objective, rather than personal.
No, I won't, because it isn't. Unaware < Flash Fire on defensive sets, and generally less than magic bounce / intimidate as well even if those ones are a bit more arguable.

Toxic is not uncommon on zygarde in the slightest, and neither is subtect or cb adapt; altogether, these comprise a majority of all zygarde sets, and none of these lose to Buzzwole unless the Buzzwole predicts really well against the subtect set since ice punch has a limited pp. Meanwhile, Skarmory takes 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Grounded Skarmory: 110-132 (33 - 39.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO very well, meaning it counters defensive zygarde and can soft check every set bar magic bounce. It takes on defensive sets due to Thousand Arrows having the same pp as roost and roost recovering significantly more hp after smack down, and while offensive sets do better against skarmory then defensive ones skarmory can still phase them out or even pp stall them in a pinch.

The only Magic Bounce Setup Sweepers we have are Gyarados, Necrozma, latias and Zygarde; Of these, Necrozma sets up on both skarmory and Buzzwole, Latias sets up on both Skarmory and Buzzwole, and Gyarados sets up on both Skarmory and Buzzwole. This leaves only zygarde as mentioned above, which makes the point essentially irrelevant.

My comment on your experience is not to prove a point; I had already proven all your points wrong. Instead, it's a suggestion that rather than continuing to make uninformed comments, you get yourself informed. That way, instead of this entire conversation being me correcting misconceptions, we can have a valuable dialogue.
 
Skarmory also has the ability to set up hazards and to utilize Volt Absorb to become a hard-counter to Tapu Koko. There are enough things which set Buzzwole and Skarmory apart and running both of them on a stall team totally makes sense.
Now this is a true point that I can get behind, so long as you can get around / handle the dual fire weakness that both of them together provide.


My comment on your experience is not to prove a point; I had already proven all your points wrong. Instead, it's a suggestion that rather than continuing to make uninformed comments, you get yourself informed. That way, instead of this entire conversation being me correcting misconceptions, we can have a valuable dialogue.
Now onto this. I fail to see which of my primary points you have proven wrong.

1. Buzzwole is a better Wall than Skarmory: Sheer bulk supports this point. You point to role compression with other things like defog to try and disprove this point; however, when making the comparison from the outset, I said that they could "especially in terms of being a defensive wall," not in terms of general utility. I also already addressed the fact that different typings do leave Pokemon open to being weak to different Pokemon, but that is inevitable when you compare Pokemon that have similar roles (which, was another secondary argument of mine that you can compare the two of them as walls, but not worth an entire parapraph as it is implied by this point).

2. Skarmory is in a Similar Position to that of Hippowdon: Barring Defog, both Pokemon can do the exact same things, though Skarmory's typing is considerably better defensively. I said that neither of them can do too much to the Pokemon they are supposed to wall "if they carry Magic Bounce." You have not disproven this point; in fact, you have supported it when you put it in bold that Skarmory cannot wall the Magic Bounce Variants of Zygarde.

3. And then, to get this discussion back on track to where this started from Funbot's post, my original point was that we need to suspect Zygarde: You have never once really addressed this, though, indirectly, I can see several points to a suspect for it in your posts. My post listed 3 common Zygarde answers, Buzzwole, Tapu Fini, and Mew, that all cannot answer 100% of Zygarde's sets. If we add in Skarmory for the sake of argument, then we have 4, and you have supported my claim that neither Buzzwole nor Skarmory can counter every set. Due to a lack of reliable answers for Zygarde's because it is so versatile, we really need to suspect this thing and get it gone. If we even run the suspect test without Zygarde (assuming it gets banned), we can lessen the shock value that banning it right before OMPL would have on the teambuilders and players who would be competing in the metagame.

This last point is where the real discussion lies. If you don't want to use Buzzwole the way that I think that it can be used, then be my guest, don't. Skarmory is by no means a bad Pokemon to fill the roll. Now, the real issue that the metagame on the whole is facing is the unpredictability of Zygarde, and what we should be discussing is the potential for a suspect test. I would really like to hear what people have to say about this, as this is a very real possibility for the metagame, and has the potential to shake up the tier a lot.
 
Wasn't there a "speed ability" clause (swift swim, unburden, etcetera are banned on non-native Pokemon)? Am I thinking of a different metagame? I recall seeing it somewhere, but it's not in the OP.
 

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