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Alomomola

Hypothetically, compared to Vaporeon, how would something like this work out?:

Mamanbou@Leftovers
Ability: Regeneration
Nature: Careful
EVs: 188 HP/ 68 Def/ 252 SpD
-Wish
-Protect
-Toxic
-Waterfall

It has 70 more HP, only 27 less Def, and 36 less SpD than the standard Bold 188 HP/ 252 Def/ 68 SpD Vaporeon (I borrowed the EVs from this set but switched them around for Mamanbou lol). Plus Mamanbou gets regeneration.

How much does that extra 70 HP make up for the difference in defences? Can someone run some calcs please?
 
Gah777 said:
Hypothetically, compared to Vaporeon, how would something like this work out?:

Mamanbou@Leftovers
Ability: Regeneration
Nature: Careful
EVs: 188 HP/ 68 Def/ 252 SpD
-Wish
-Protect
-Toxic
-Waterfall

It has 70 more HP, only 27 less Def, and 36 less SpD than the standard Bold 188 HP/ 252 Def/ 68 SpD Vaporeon (I borrowed the EVs from this set but switched them around for Mamanbou lol). Plus Mamanbou gets regeneration.

How much does that extra 70 HP make up for the difference in defences? Can someone run some calcs please?
Click to expand...

Well, this spread lets Mama take hits a bit better physically than Vaporeon, but a bit less Specially.

If you want Mama to have equivalent physical and special defenses to the 188 HP/252 Def/68 SpD Vaporeon set, you need 220 HP / 36 Def / 252 SpD Careful. They'll literally be taking the same damage if Mama has this EV spread.

This gives Mama 526 HP/205 Def/207 SpD. So basically, since there is this spread that lets them take hits equivalently, they can both be a good choice. If you want something that can pass bigger Wishes and deal a lot of damage with Mirror Coat, doing this several times thanks to Regeneration, pick Mama. If you want something with a little more punch and don't mind passing smaller Wishes, go for Vaporeon.

People may like to talk about Vaporeon and say "AMAZING! Even better than Mama!", but it's not necessarily true. :]
 
Bogmire said:
meh...it'll have to compete with Suicune and Vaporeon as a bulky water. Statwise, it's only slightly bulkier than Suicune physically and way frailer specially. As a wish passer, Vaporeon will probably be preferable for its ability to use Boiling Water thanks to it's base 110 SpA. 40 base SpA means Mamanbou can't even use hidden power or ICE BEAM to counter stuff like gyarados and dragons. A waterfall from a mere base 75 Atk just isn't going to cut it, how disappointing.
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Rain and STAB would make Waterfall at least somewhat decent damage if you really needed to go offense.
 
Thanks Bologo. This thing really is not outclassed in any way by Vaporeon. In fact it's giving my favorite bulky water wish passer a run for its money...
 
With bigger wishes, arguably a better ability, and greater HP, I don't see this being at all outclassed by Vaporeon. Also, it can be EV'ed to take physical hits far better than Vaporeon, giving it greater versatility
 
Even without Physical defensive investment, Mamanbou can still take the likes of random Stone Edges and moderately strong neutral attacks fairly well. So it either needs to match the defenses of Vaporeon or invest purely in Special Defense and Speed to be slightly more supportive of the team, in my opinion. I have recently faced a max HP/SpD Mamanbou who actually survived +SpA Life Orb Shandera’ Energy Ball and stalled out some Life Orb damage with Rest / Wish before Shandera switched out.

This thing’s actually pretty cool for a defensive Water-type, competitively, but I don’t see it getting use on commonly used teams consisting of the usual offensive.
 
AccidentalGreed said:
Even without Physical defensive investment, Mamanbou can still take the likes of random Stone Edges and moderately strong neutral attacks fairly well. So it either needs to match the defenses of Vaporeon or invest purely in Special Defense and Speed to be slightly more supportive of the team, in my opinion. I have recently faced a max HP/SpD Mamanbou who actually survived +SpA Life Orb Shandera’ Energy Ball and stalled out some Life Orb damage with Rest / Wish before Shandera switched out.

This thing’s actually pretty cool for a defensive Water-type, competitively, but I don’t see it getting use on commonly used teams consisting of the usual offensive.
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Shandera should have been using Shadow ball.
 
Why? Energy Ball hits harder (forty base points harder), the only difference being that Shadow Ball has a 20% chance to lower Sp.Def instead of a 10% chance.
 
This thing is FAR more useful than most of you are making out. I have a reasonably good stall team and this is easily the MVP. Sure, Waterfall doesn't hurt much, but you just have to hit the Opponent with a toxic and Stall to high hell. I've seen it outstall Ttar, Wobbuffet and a Burned Scizor, all in one match, and with Toxic Spikes support in the rain, spamming rest outstalls anything that hasn't done serious boosting. If you get Reflect up, it's nigh invincible, surviving even +6 Deoxys-A Zen Headbutt. It has no utility outside of heavy stall, but in a dedicated stall team, especially with Toxic Spikes and Burn Support, it's a beast.
 
Gah777 said:
Hypothetically, compared to Vaporeon, how would something like this work out?:

Mamanbou@Leftovers
Ability: Regeneration
Nature: Careful
EVs: 188 HP/ 68 Def/ 252 SpD
-Wish
-Protect
-Toxic
-Waterfall

It has 70 more HP, only 27 less Def, and 36 less SpD than the standard Bold 188 HP/ 252 Def/ 68 SpD Vaporeon (I borrowed the EVs from this set but switched them around for Mamanbou lol). Plus Mamanbou gets regeneration.

How much does that extra 70 HP make up for the difference in defences? Can someone run some calcs please?
Click to expand...

Same set but with a different EV spread:

Mamanbou@Leftovers
Ability: Regeneration
Nature: Impish
EVs: 108 HP/ 200 Def/ 200 SpD
-Wish
-Protect
-Toxic
-Waterfall

Basically more bulky than vaporeon, it's jobs are usually to pass wishes, out stall pokes with protect and poison foes then retreats to step 2.
Regeneration makes up and keeps it in competition with Vaporeon and any reason not to Mamanbou (unless you want to run heal bell) is ridiculous imo, unless you're a 1st gen fanatic (Yes I went there)

It's attack stat is better than it's sp.atk stat so I also run waterfall to get off some extra damage.

Bologo said:
People may like to talk about Vaporeon and say "AMAZING! Even better than Mama!", but it's not necessarily true. :]
Click to expand...
It really isn't.
Gah777 said:
Thanks Bologo. This thing really is not outclassed in any way by Vaporeon. In fact it's giving my favorite bulky water wish passer a run for its money...
Click to expand...
That's how I feel.
masterful said:
With bigger wishes, arguably a better ability, and greater HP, I don't see this being at all outclassed by Vaporeon. Also, it can be EV'ed to take physical hits far better than Vaporeon, giving it greater versatility
Click to expand...
True
Gah777 said:
But if it takes physical hits better that means you're most likely missing out on some SpD EVs.
Click to expand...
Regeneration alone can compensate that.
FastFlygon said:
This thing is FAR more useful than most of you are making out. I have a reasonably good stall team and this is easily the MVP. Sure, Waterfall doesn't hurt much, but you just have to hit the Opponent with a toxic and Stall to high hell. I've seen it outstall Ttar, Wobbuffet and a Burned Scizor, all in one match, and with Toxic Spikes support in the rain, spamming rest outstalls anything that hasn't done serious boosting. If you get Reflect up, it's nigh invincible, surviving even +6 Deoxys-A Zen Headbutt. It has no utility outside of heavy stall, but in a dedicated stall team, especially with Toxic Spikes and Burn Support, it's a beast.
Click to expand...

Nice.
 
I've been having trouble fitting mamanbou onto my team in place of vaporeon. I was hoping to, since vappy's freaking everywhere now, but mamanbu just doesn't pose the same threat as the lil blue doggy does. Vaporeon is immune to water, which helps immensly now that boiling water's everywhere, has a very high spA stat with boiling water and ice beam to use with it (Whereas mamanbou wuld be doing diddly with either f those moves), and great support moves like roar, yawn, baton pass, and heal bell.
Mamanbou might be better on stall teams, but only because of bigger wishes. In my book, that's not nearly enough to make up for the rest of those shortcomings
 
Why does everybody absolutely want to give Big luvdisc SpD EVs ? Offensive teams are obviously not gonna use this guy, and stall teams have much better pokes for tanking special hits. Look at the damn thing's stat spread! It's meant to take physical hits, so just use 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD and take advantage of those massive physical bulk and Wishes.

Attempting to split the EVs will result in Big luvdisc not taking physical hits nearly as well as it should, and still not take special hits that well. It doesn't even really matter since this guy will only stay in to make a Wish, then switch out, it won't have to take on the inevitable Special Attacker that's switching in.

At the worst, if you just NEED this guy to be a special tank use a spread of 36 HP/220 Def/252 SpD. Bigluvdisc already has a shitload of HP, and noone cares about 30 more HP from a Wish (thats like 1 leftover turn). At least this spread lets it hit a lefties number, and retain good physical bulk while losing little special bulk.

But really, if you absolutely want a pink special wall, use Blissey.
 
I think you may be right.
The main selling point over vaporeon and blissey is it's more physically defensive stat distribution (in a metagame full of physical threats).
Probably its better to play to its strengths rather than making it a clone of vaporeon.

The metagame is dominated by physical offense so I think that's part of the reason vaporeon gets so many def EVs.
In my experience, the dominant sets of most physical walls invest primarily in Def rather than SpD so it's not simply a matter of 'rounding out' the Pokemon.
On the contrary, many Pokemon blessed with high SpD stats end up investing in defense since it is impractal to completely avoid physical hits when nearly every attacker is using them.
The most common Gen IV defensive spreads of Hippowdon/Skarmory/Forretress versus Blissey/Tentacruel/Togekiss bear this out.

So maybe Mamanbou's niche is as a physically defensive Pokemon with Wish:

Bold/Impish@Leftovers
252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 SpD
~Wish
~Protect
~Waterfall/Boiling Water
~Toxic/Light Screen
 
One of the problems with defensive Pokemon in general is the the need to find a sufficient EV spread, and apparently, Mamanbou is no exception. In the previous generations, some Pokemon can easily forgo its other stats and max out HP and a respective defense stat. This went for many defensive Pokemon, despite some of them having already good HP stats.

On the contrary, several players suggested putting sufficient, if not maximum, investment in both defenses for a instead of HP so a Pokemon "with massive HP" is bulky on both sides. I remember a few months ago, there was a discussion on the placement of EVs on Blissey, and 4HP/ 252 Def / 252 SpD was suggested. There were soome mixed feelings on the spread because it was compared with the standard physically defensive EV spread on 4th generation Blissey. Others complained that investing in both defenses didn't work for them because it was "less bulky".

With Mamanbou, I think it's the same case. It can run a specially defensive spread and be okay, but it can run max HP / Def if it wants to take advantage of its HP and Defense.

I may not be as easily tolerable of defensive EV spreads as you guys, but how about some feedback on spreads?
 
As a physical wall, how does this thing stack up against Slowbro? I think the two are each others main competition as far as physical Bulky Waters go, both having Regeneration, but differing in other areas.

For a start, Mama makes a better team player, passing on huge Wishes to it's cohorts, and with Regeneration it can pretty much switch in and out as it pleases. However, the Rest/Hydration combo makes it a better status absorber, but it can't support the team nearly as well (Wish with HydraRest is pretty redundant). Its better Atk, compared to its SpA, makes it unique since most Bulky Waters are skewed towards SpA. I don't know what the benefits or disadvantages of this is (besides higher BP moves, and not being able to utilise Ice Beam), but it is interesting nonetheless.

Slowbro on the other hand, while having more weaknesses, has more resistances to take advantage of Regeneration, being able to switch into more types. As well, it makes a better status platform with T-wave and Boiling Water, which Mama can hardly use. Finally, with Calm Mind it can make a great boosting mixed tank, something which Mama would kill for.

I don't know which one I would use if I needed a physical Bulky Water...
 
elchupo said:
As a physical wall, how does this thing stack up against Slowbro? I think the two are each others main competition as far as physical Bulky Waters go, both having Regeneration, but differing in other areas.

For a start, Mama makes a better team player, passing on huge Wishes to it's cohorts, and with Regeneration it can pretty much switch in and out as it pleases. However, the Rest/Hydration combo makes it a better status absorber, but it can't support the team nearly as well (Wish with HydraRest is pretty redundant). Its better Atk, compared to its SpA, makes it unique since most Bulky Waters are skewed towards SpA. I don't know what the benefits or disadvantages of this is (besides higher BP moves, and not being able to utilise Ice Beam), but it is interesting nonetheless.

Slowbro on the other hand, while having more weaknesses, has more resistances to take advantage of Regeneration, being able to switch into more types. As well, it makes a better status platform with T-wave and Boiling Water, which Mama can hardly use. Finally, with Calm Mind it can make a great boosting mixed tank, something which Mama would kill for.

I don't know which one I would use if I needed a physical Bulky Water...
Click to expand...


That's a good question..I would say it comes down to team preference in terms of support...I honestly couldnt tell you who was bulkier but from guessing I would say Mamanbou's better bulky on both physical and special side..

Mamanbou's qualites:

Wish passer
Better Toxic Staller
Possibly better typing (depends on your team)
Aqua Jet

Slowbro's qualities:

Twave
High Sp. Atk
CM
Better at taking fighting attacks


Personally I would go with Mama just because those weakness's I have to play around with by slowbro and being pursuit/u-turn weak is no fun..also its too easy to patch up that fighting resistance
 
Slowbro has better coverage, if your an offensive guy slowbro's where it's at. Slowbro has weaknesses to bug, ghost & dark though among his water weaknesses. If your team would like some neutrality to those types take Mama with you. Even then if you have those weaknesses the attack power of Slowbro with it's bulk is really helpful and outside of a rain team, slowbro can use it's fire attacks to drop some pain into things like nattorei, scizor will u-turn out though so don't count on it unless you get it on the switch.
 
min min said:
Oh hoh hoh I see what you did there. *groans*
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I just collapsed in laughter at 1:00 when I'm supposed to be doing homework.

@ Bologo huh, you make the defenses equal? That's neat.

If that's true...I'd actually run this thing over Vappy. Humongous Wishes are more important than power, when you're looking for a defensive pokemon.

Shame no phaze, though.
 
Mamanbou set

Nature: Calm
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Regeneration

Hp: 252
Spec Def: 252
Speed: 4

Moves:
Water Soak
Wish
Protect/Toxic
Hidden power Electric
Like?
 
104 hp/152 Def/252 SDef seems an awesome spread with Impish. With either Regeneration or Hydration although if Hydration Rest/Waterfall/Mirror Coat/Toxic does very well and Regeneration should be Wish/Protect/Toxic/Waterfall or Mirror Coat.

Special defense evs are actually very helpful. It's not ohkoed by Specs Latios Draco Meteor at full health where as max hp zero Sdef would be fried, can take a Defensive Zapdos's Thunder (why you'd risk that is questionable as offensive ones fry you but it could), take Heatran Fire Blasts/Dragon Pulses like a champ, etc. Asking why Mamabou should invest in special defense is like asking why Blissey or Chansey should invest in physical defense because their defense stats suck. It really makes a difference.
 
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