Anything Goes Resources

Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
On Blissey versus Chansey, it basically comes down to if anybody can provide calcs of significant hits chansey can live that's useful consistently to justify its use. Otherwise there's literally no reason to use it over the thing that can't be trapped. Not much content but what else needs to be said, and if anybody has these calcs then please post them because we'd likely simply leave them in D

On Salamance, pure defensive merit does not justify being a worse ray and there's no reason this shouldn't be in the C ranks, Gunner's Iron Defense set is incredibly obnoxious but you can't justify this at the same level as things like Arceus-Water or Deoxys-Attack which don't take up a Mega slot or suck. No way this thing rises, it's not a question of if it drops but where to.

I just noticed we have Arceus-Dragon in C-, this is a direct result of "nobody's really used it lol". It's basically the same thing as Arceus Water but you can actually *gasp* hit megaray. And Pdon. And if you're running Ice Beam Arc Water, you don't have moderately powerful STAB Judgement. No reason this shouldnt be bumped into C minimum, although obviously people need to start running it first and bring in more opinions. And it does come with the downsides of not hitting Keys/Diancie with water judgement, it's not exactly a clear cut case. Have barely used this but it's not a "garbage, level of regular sableye" mon. Speaking of which, has anybody ever used this? Oh and I retract Garchomp needing to drop, tested and it's surprisingly nice. The things that happen when you actually play the game.
I don't think significant calcs are very relevant to Chansey and Blissey personally. Factoring in SR damage, how many times they've been brought in, how weak they are from wish passing, etc, the calcs will be different almost every game. Calcs are more important for offensive mons imho. If you really want calcs, CM Pogre breaks Blissey if Blissey switches in on a Calm Mind, it gets Toxic stalled by Chansey.
+1 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 289-342 (45 - 53.2%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Rain: 364-429 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But like I said, factoring in so much, for something that's supposed to blanket check every special attacker in the game, imo calcs are too game-specific to be relevant.
I still strongly feel Chansey is better. Mega Gengar is super rare, and Chansey is just a lot bulkier, I don't think sacrificing all that bulk to deal with one uncommon threat is worth it (besides on very specific teams). Furthering that, every decent player will see that Blissey isn't getting Leftovers recovery, and by default assume it is Shed Shell (unveil Chople Blissey) and won't even attempt to bring Mega Gengar in on it. This puts you in a worse position, because you need to play around mindgames of if they'll double, if you can even send something in on the Perish Song/Taunt and win 1v1 in the first place, etc, and that's assuming they even bring Mega Gengar in on Blissey which they very well might not.

Mega Mence can be in D imho, it is just so completely outclassed by Ray. It definitely has niches, but to justify using it? Near impossible. I'd even push for unranked until someone shows me a solid team with it, but that's another story.

I pushed Arceus Dragon for higher, and still support it. I'll make Zangy build around it one of these days.

And merry Christmas AG! :toast:
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
I don't think significant calcs are very relevant to Chansey and Blissey personally. Factoring in SR damage, how many times they've been brought in, how weak they are from wish passing, etc, the calcs will be different almost every game.
No, calcs as in "chansey can beat xyz threats that blissey cant therefore it has a legitimate niche". I'm fairly certain that chansey cannot do this. So, they take hits just as well, but one cant be trapped. Why would you not use this one? Only if it loses to relevant things the other does not.
I still strongly feel Chansey is better. Mega Gengar is super rare, and Chansey is just a lot bulkier, I don't think sacrificing all that bulk to deal with one uncommon threat is worth it (besides on very specific teams).
Funnily enough, Mega Gengar is a nightmare for stall. The only teams fitting on Chansey/Blissey. Without Blissey, there goes your switch into, say, Pogre. And maybe Chansey is bulkier, but what relevant threats is it taking on that Blissey isn't? That's essentially what this boils down to.
Furthering that, every decent player will see that Blissey isn't getting Leftovers recovery, and by default assume it is Shed Shell (unveil Chople Blissey) and won't even attempt to bring Mega Gengar in on it. This puts you in a worse position, because you need to play around mindgames of if they'll double, if you can even send something in on the Perish Song/Taunt and win 1v1 in the first place, etc, and that's assuming they even bring Mega Gengar in on Blissey which they very well might not.!
They're not trying to trap you because they cant trap you which is the whole point. Whether they try to or not, you're not being trapped which is why you run Blissey. Chansey can be trapped, which is why you chose not to use it.

edit: Sorry if I don't understand what your post is saying, I honestly can't make any sense of it so maybe I missed the point?

Also, has anybody used these to great effect? I'm wondering why they're in such a garbage rank, they don't /seem/ that terrible but I haven't really used full stall for a long time
 
Last edited:

Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
What my post is saying is basically that Chansey can take hits from everything except one very uncommon Pokemon better. There is no single Pokemon that Chansey takes on that Blissey can't, but that's not really relevant. Chansey and Blissey are not supposed to take on Pokemon 1v1, they are supposed to support an entire team against most (or all) special attackers, and Chansey has more overall longevity and can do it better. When's the last time you matched Mega Gengar in AG? I haven't for ages, and I play all the time. However, assume for a second that the statistic is that out of every 100 games vs good people you match Mega Gengar five times. At that point, I'd say it is common enough to sacrifice the bulk. Other than that, not worth it imo.

The best AG stall team out there in my opinion, by Gunner Rohan:
Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 192 Atk / 52 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Substitute
- Roost

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Fake Out
- Foul Play
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
- Judgment
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Defog

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Recover

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock
- Protect

Blissey @ Shed Shell
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Toxic
- Heal Bell
 
I don't really understand why the Chansey and Blissey situation is a thing. Why are we debating this? We all agree that they are both good mons, when it comes to having a good Special tank and Cleric, right? Blissey might be frailer by a little, yet noticeable difference. However, Blissey has the advantage of running Leftovers, Shed Shell, and using Psych Up against CM users. I don't think these aspects are what makes a Pokemon "superior," but aspects that makes a Pokemon "fit your team better." I feel like everyone is debating whether people should use Latias or Latios, when they both have their pros and cons. Even IF Chansey or Blissey was slightly better than the other, they both fulfill a niche, so they would probably still be in the same Viability Rank. (Currently D)

Also, can we stop making Viability Rankings via alphabetical order? For example, on the S rank, Xerneas is listed at the bottom of the Rank, but I think it should be above Klefki. Even if Klefki and Xern are both on the same rank, I think Xerneas is superior to Klefki, so Xerneas should be placed higher WITHIN S rank. I think Viability Rankings should be more specific than just assigning a Pokemon a rank.
 

baconbagon

free stabmons
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Also, can we stop making Viability Rankings via alphabetical order? For example, on the S rank, Xerneas is listed at the bottom of the Rank, but I think it should be above Klefki. Even if Klefki and Xern are both on the same rank, I think Xerneas is superior to Klefki, so Xerneas should be placed higher WITHIN S rank. I think Viability Rankings should be more specific than just assigning a Pokemon a rank.
There's no doubt that viability rankings as a whole are more helpful if the Pokemon are ordered by viability, but the problem is that this kind of stuff takes a long time to do. There would also be a ton of debate as to where things should be placed. You could probably help out by giving some of your own preliminary listings, and if the council wants they'll start up a new ordering system. Personally, I think it'd be a little superfluous and too difficult in such a crowded and varied metagame.

also lol what even is psych up blissey. use snatch if real
 
There's no doubt that viability rankings as a whole are more helpful if the Pokemon are ordered by viability, but the problem is that this kind of stuff takes a long time to do. There would also be a ton of debate as to where things should be placed. You could probably help out by giving some of your own preliminary listings, and if the council wants they'll start up a new ordering system. Personally, I think it'd be a little superfluous and too difficult in such a crowded and varied metagame.

also lol what even is psych up blissey. use snatch if real
Psych Up Blissey was a set used in Gen 3 Ubers. Also, Snatch takes too much prediction skills for me.
 

Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
i like ordering by viability was gonna bring that up as well. starting with, s my order is:

Arceus
Rayquaza (Mega)
Darkrai
Groudon (Primal)
Xerneas
Klefki

Arceus is just so fuckin diverse, I don't think anyone argues with it being the best. Ray can run physical or special sets effectively, and has no true safe switchins. It is so stupidly powerful. Darkrai is just the most insanely overcentralizing thing, that forces random shit like Xern and Ho-oh to run Sleep Talk in order to somewhat manage it. Pdon is versatile, has great all around stats and can run an either bulky or offensive sets. Also blanket checks so much, and provides a ton of utility. Xern is a sweeper, can also act as a cleric with Aromatherapy. Very powerful. Klefki is too hax-reliant to be higher in S, because unlike Darkrai it has 0 offensive presence to go with its hax.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
can we not do rank orders until we've reached conclusions on the majority of the rankings? AG shouldnt really change too much in the long run but there's still plenty of changes that could be argued before we work on that
 
Last edited:

Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Rank orders also help hash out inconsistencies, as it requires us looking into the ranks more indepth. At that point, we could for example be like "hey, wait a second, there's no way Primal Kyogre is as good as Mega Diancie, lets drop it down a rank" (random example don't read into the mons themselves). The biggest problem with AG is the lack of playtesting for the lower ranks, so ordering the upper ranks by viability is fine for the time being and at some point in the future we can extend past A- which is as far as we should go for now imo.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
Klefki for A+ Rank.

First off, let me get one thing clear.

In terms of defining the AG metagame, Klefki's certainly up there with M-ray and Arceus. When you think of the biggest changes it brings compared to Ubers you're forced to think of, among other things, teams of 6 keys haxing their way to victory. Were the viability rankings based on impact on the metagame, Klefki would certainly be S Rank and I'm not sure anyone could argue otherwise. However, they're not Impact-on-the-Metagame Rankings, they're Viability Rankings. Nobody's arguing Klefki isn't metagame-defining in every possible way, be it Lum on every ekiller and m-ray or the magic coat and magic bounce mons you see all over the place. But Klefki simply isn't good enough to deserve S-rank.

Let's take a look at the definition for S-rank:
Zangooser said:
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the AG metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to abuse a variety of abilities effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
And the definition for A-rank:
Zangooser said:
Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the AG metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
Klefki abuses Swagplay. A screens set simply isn't that great in this metagame. Spikes are usable, but generally used over Sub or Twave on the Swagplay set. Klef has access to a few different options such as Magnet Rise, but those are most definitely variations of a single set, rather than multiple different options. So for it to match the first part of the S-rank definitions, it has to do the job of SwagPlay very well. This is in addition to being low risk high reward and having very few flaws and a large number of positive traits.

SwagKeys, as we all know, are highly luck-based. Frankly, I'd argue that this breaks the "low risk high reward" idea already and moreover is a large flaw, but to give a fair ranking we'll have to look at the exact probabilities in play. Before I go into the maths of it all, I'd like to point out a psychological problem here: we're far more likely to remember losses to keys than wins because they're so much more annoying and thus stick in our memory more. (The technical term for this is Negativity Bias.) In actual fact, when using a luck-based mon luck is just as likely to go the other way, such as here: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-310519705

Let me bring up a fairly standard scenario. You'll rarely see a team that doesn't have a lum mon capable of OHKOing keys at +2, so let's assume this lum mon switches in as Klef Swaggers, then it Swaggers again after lum breaks. The chances of the mon getting through Confusion are 50%. Moreover, if either of the two Swaggers misses, the other mon wins. There's a 19% chance of at least one swagger missing, so that's a total of 59.5% chance of the lum mon winning. Next, let's not forget that even if the lum mon does hit itself in confusion, it's not over yet. Hitting itself in confusion, even at +4, often won't KO. I believe* that hitting yourself in confusion is a base 40 power hit, according to which my calc says standard lum ekiller wouldn't even be 2HKOing itself. The chances aren't exactly high, but it can still break through both confusion and all of klef's subs until the keys run out of health. So overall you're probably looking at a ~65-70% chance that this extremely common mon will beat it. That's not what I call low risk high reward.
*source: Bulbapedia. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Sure, this is just one scenario, and you could argue that adding Lum to Arceus shows how impactful Klefki is on the metagame, or how klefki can just switch out if Swagger misses or arceus reveals lum. Of course, the opposing player can also predict well against the Klefki by hitting it hard on switch-in or going to a lum mon as it comes in, and again the fact that klefki has a big impact on the metagame is irrelevant.

And finally, I'd like to place this a little more in the context of the AG ladder. Teams of 6 keys are seen from time to time, and are annoying, however I maintain that a prepared team will be able to play such that they have a >50% win chance every time. The other thing to note is how large low-ladder is. For every meta you're going to have bad players down at the bottom who have no idea what's going on, but when your keys team is relying on luck to win, that's not great when your opponent has an OU team. To do well on the AG ladder you need to win 95% of your games, not 55%. So relying on a mon that is largely hax-based generally isn't a good way to go, especially when the mon is so well prepared for.


tl;dr because of a number of factors, Klefki should be A+ rank as it fits this description far more than the S-rank description:
Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the AG metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
 
Klefki for A+ Rank.

First off, let me get one thing clear.

In terms of defining the AG metagame, Klefki's certainly up there with M-ray and Arceus. When you think of the biggest changes it brings compared to Ubers you're forced to think of, among other things, teams of 6 keys haxing their way to victory. Were the viability rankings based on impact on the metagame, Klefki would certainly be S Rank and I'm not sure anyone could argue otherwise. However, they're not Impact-on-the-Metagame Rankings, they're Viability Rankings. Nobody's arguing Klefki isn't metagame-defining in every possible way, be it Lum on every ekiller and m-ray or the magic coat and magic bounce mons you see all over the place. But Klefki simply isn't good enough to deserve S-rank.

Let's take a look at the definition for S-rank:

And the definition for A-rank:

Klefki abuses Swagplay. A screens set simply isn't that great in this metagame. Spikes are usable, but generally used over Sub or Twave on the Swagplay set. Klef has access to a few different options such as Magnet Rise, but those are most definitely variations of a single set, rather than multiple different options. So for it to match the first part of the S-rank definitions, it has to do the job of SwagPlay very well. This is in addition to being low risk high reward and having very few flaws and a large number of positive traits.

SwagKeys, as we all know, are highly luck-based. Frankly, I'd argue that this breaks the "low risk high reward" idea already and moreover is a large flaw, but to give a fair ranking we'll have to look at the exact probabilities in play. Before I go into the maths of it all, I'd like to point out a psychological problem here: we're far more likely to remember losses to keys than wins because they're so much more annoying and thus stick in our memory more. (The technical term for this is Negativity Bias.) In actual fact, when using a luck-based mon luck is just as likely to go the other way, such as here: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-310519705

Let me bring up a fairly standard scenario. You'll rarely see a team that doesn't have a lum mon capable of OHKOing keys at +2, so let's assume this lum mon switches in as Klef Swaggers, then it Swaggers again after lum breaks. The chances of the mon getting through Confusion are 50%. Moreover, if either of the two Swaggers misses, the other mon wins. There's a 19% chance of at least one swagger missing, so that's a total of 59.5% chance of the lum mon winning. Next, let's not forget that even if the lum mon does hit itself in confusion, it's not over yet. Hitting itself in confusion, even at +4, often won't KO. I believe* that hitting yourself in confusion is a base 40 power hit, according to which my calc says standard lum ekiller wouldn't even be 2HKOing itself. The chances aren't exactly high, but it can still break through both confusion and all of klef's subs until the keys run out of health. So overall you're probably looking at a ~65-70% chance that this extremely common mon will beat it. That's not what I call low risk high reward.
*source: Bulbapedia. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Sure, this is just one scenario, and you could argue that adding Lum to Arceus shows how impactful Klefki is on the metagame, or how klefki can just switch out if Swagger misses or arceus reveals lum. Of course, the opposing player can also predict well against the Klefki by hitting it hard on switch-in or going to a lum mon as it comes in, and again the fact that klefki has a big impact on the metagame is irrelevant.

And finally, I'd like to place this a little more in the context of the AG ladder. Teams of 6 keys are seen from time to time, and are annoying, however I maintain that a prepared team will be able to play such that they have a >50% win chance every time. The other thing to note is how large low-ladder is. For every meta you're going to have bad players down at the bottom who have no idea what's going on, but when your keys team is relying on luck to win, that's not great when your opponent has an OU team. To do well on the AG ladder you need to win 95% of your games, not 55%. So relying on a mon that is largely hax-based generally isn't a good way to go, especially when the mon is so well prepared for.


tl;dr because of a number of factors, Klefki should be A+ rank as it fits this description far more than the S-rank description:
I would argue that it should be A, or A-, but yeah. I agree with this comment. (Maybe A rank, probably more fitting than A+)
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
Updated Speed Tiers, feel free to edit this into your previous speed tiers post Zangooser. I removed a ton of things that just aren't run like scarf skymin and added as many specific spreads as I could find, as well as a ton of stuff that wasn't on it before. Some notes: covers everything down to C+ rank excluding Ditto (duh), Megamence, and base Groudon which should be below C+ (add it if u really want :v). Didn't feel like going lower because Kanga/Lando/Chomp/Megagross are rly niche already. Groudon's 120 speed spread beats scarf genesect/xerneas after a rock polish just like Geoxern's standard 44 does. Plenty of spreads that just aren't run like max +speed xerneas or Ho-Oh were removed, it's more clear when things that aren't run aren't there. Things on multiple lines with no reason to be were condensed. Aegislash, Bronzong, and Ferrothorn only have -spe 0 IVs because they always run gyro ball
Speed / Pokemon / Base Speed / Nature (+Spe, -Spe, or Neutral) / EVs / +Boost / IVs (where applicable)

532 / Scolipede / 112 / +Spe / 252 / +1
504 / Deoxys-Speed / 180 / +Spe / 252 / 0
493 / Mega Rayquaza / 115 / Neutral / 252 / +1
490 / Primal Groudon / 90 / 116 / +2
490 / Xerneas / 99 / Neutral / 44 / +2
489 / Genesect, Xerneas / 99 / +Spe / 252 / +1
438 / Deoxys-Attack / 150 / +Spe / 252 / 0
433 / Kyurem-White / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +1
426 / Blaziken / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +1
421 / Deoxys-Attack / 150 / +Spe / 188 / 0
418 / Kyogre, Zekrom / 90 / Neutral / 252 / +1
416 / Mega Mewtwo Y / 140 / +Spe / 252 / 0
399 / Deoxys-Attack / 150 / Neutral / 252 / 0
394 / Mewtwo, Mega Mewtwo X, Mega Gengar / 130 / +Spe / 252 / 0
388 / Shaymin-Sky / 127 / +Spe / 252 / 0
383 / Darkrai / 125 / +Spe / 252 / 0
377 / Greninja / 122 / +Spe / 252 / 0
372 / Arceus / 120 / +Spe / 252 / 0
361 / Mega Rayquaza / 115 / +Spe / 252 / 0
355 / Mega Lucario, Scolipede / 112 / +Spe / 252 / 0
350 / Espeon, Latios, Mega Diancie / 110 / +Spe / 0
339 / Arceus / 120 / Neutral / 252 / 0
331 / Landorus / 101 / +Spe / 252 / 0
330 / Latias, Mega Diancie / 110 / Neutral / 176 / 0
329 / Mega Rayquaza / 115 / Neutral / 252 / 0
328 / Palkia / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 0
326 / Yveltal / 99 / +Spe / 252 / 0
317 / Kyurem-White / +Spe / 252 / 0
306 / Primal Kyogre, Primal Groudon, Zekrom / 90 / +Spe / 252 / 0
301 / Landorus / 101 / Neutral / 252 / 0
299 / Palkia / 100 / Neutral / 252 / 0
297 / Xerneas, Yveltal / 99 / Neutral / 252 / 0
289 / Kyurem-White, Rayquaza / 95 / Neutral / 252 / 0
284 / Blaziken / 80 / +Spe / 252 / 0
279 / Ho-Oh, Primal Kyogre, Primal Groudon, Zekrom, / 90 / Neutral / 252 / 0
276 / Arceus / 120 / Neutral / 0 / 0
273 / Smeargle / 75 / +Spe / 252 / 0
257 / Yveltal / 99 / Neutral / 92 / 0
256 / Lugia / 110 / Neutral / 0 / 0
245 / Primal Groudon / 90 / Neutral / 116 / 0
245 / Xerneas / 99 / Neutral / 44 / 0
234 / Xerneas, Yveltal / 99 / Neutral / 0 / 0
219 / Dialga, Giratina-Origin, Ho-Oh, Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre / 90 / Neutral / 12 / 0
218 / Diancie / 50 / +Spe / 252 / 0
216 / Giratina / 90 / Neutral / 0 / 0
186 / Klefki, Mega Scizor, Smeargle / 75 / Neutral / 0 / 0
176 / Skarmory / 70 / Neutral / 0 / 0
158 / Tyranitar / 61 / Neutral / 0 / 0
112 / Aegislash / 60 / -Spe / 0 / 0 / 0 IVs
76 / Mega Sableye / 20 / Neutral / 0 / 0
63 / Bronzong / 33 / -Spe / 0 / 0 / 0 IVs
40 / Ferrothorn / 20 / -Spe / 0 / 0 / 0 IVs

If anybody sees something wrong/missing, post pls! Especially since there were several mistakes in the old version although I think I caught them all
Also the single scarf set is not enough for Kyogre to be B+ at all, I wanna see some discussion on where this should go but B- drop at the very least seems absolutely reasonable. Primal Groudon and priority say hi. Greninja could also warrant a drop, Scolipede is just that much better.
 

Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Also the single scarf set is not enough for Kyogre to be B+ at all, I wanna see some discussion on where this should go but B- drop at the very least seems absolutely reasonable. Primal Groudon and priority say hi.
False. This thing is so good in AG, it destroys teams completely if they lack Pdon or if you eliminate it. Guess what? Pdon doesn't win 1v1 either. It has a 51% chance to lose switching into a Sheer Cold, and actually it has more than that with no attack investment because it needs to dodge 3 Sheer Colds. In Ubers, Pdon is on literally every good team, and Waterceus is on a ton of solid balance teams as well. Scarfed Kyogre just rolls over and dies. However, in AG Pdon is only on around 2/5 of good teams, and Waterceus on 1/20 if that. AND when those ARE on the team, they STILL lose 1v1 more than they win. Hell, Waterceus needs to dodge around 6-7 Sheer Colds to kill via Toxic, lol.
It's completely shit in Ubers, but a combination of metagame trends and Sheer Cold vastly improve its viability in AG.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
False. This thing is so good in AG, it destroys teams completely if they lack Pdon or if you eliminate it. Guess what? Pdon doesn't win 1v1 either. It has a 51% chance to lose switching into a Sheer Cold, and actually it has more than that with no attack investment because it needs to dodge 3 Sheer Colds. In Ubers, Pdon is on literally every good team, and Waterceus is on a ton of solid balance teams as well. Scarfed Kyogre just rolls over and dies. However, in AG Pdon is only on around 2/5 of good teams, and Waterceus on 1/20 if that. AND when those ARE on the team, they STILL lose 1v1 more than they win. Hell, Waterceus needs to dodge around 6-7 Sheer Colds to kill via Toxic, lol.
It's completely shit in Ubers, but a combination of metagame trends and Sheer Cold vastly improve its viability in AG.
yeeeaaaaahhh but it has one set that is designed to be a revenge killer that cant revenge some really common shit very well and is reliant on a very inaccurate move and it's not really something I look at and think I can slap in on a team very easily as opposed to stuff like MMX, Waterceus, etc
Actually looking back at B+, because there's no species clause most of the splashable shit is in A ranks but even so i think it's overrating this thing
 
yeeeaaaaahhh but it has one set that is designed to be a revenge killer that cant revenge some really common shit very well and is reliant on a very inaccurate move and it's not really something I look at and think I can slap in on a team very easily as opposed to stuff like MMX, Waterceus, etc
Actually looking back at B+, because there's no species clause most of the splashable shit is in A ranks but even so i think it's overrating this thing
Compared to MMX or Waterceus, Kyogre can be slapped onto a team like a sticker. The fact that you have Kyogre is like having a Ditto. It greatly limits your opponents options and teams that have bad matchups can easily get screwed by it. Almost nothing can set up on it, which is a very significant feat for something in AG. Only a few can manage to do that. (Arceus, Mega Ray, and stuff like that) 2HKO'ing the majority of the metagame makes it very influential, and it also is the only viable user of OHKO moves. Some may argue that OHKO moves are too dependent on RNG, and that isn't a good thing. However, OHKO moves only need RNG to win. ONLY RNG. That means, no matter how unfavorable your situation is, you have a 30% chance to kill any threat that doesn't outspeed AND OHKO you. Think about it, you might fight a person with 10 more GXE than you, who has a team with a good match up against you. By playing normally, you would lose 99% of the time, but by using ONE move, your odds of winning increase by 30%. Sheer Cold is better than Klefki as unlike Klefki, which requires 45% hax JUST to not get OHKO'd, Kyogre only requires 30% to secure the OHKO. Scarf Kyogre fits my philosophy of Pokemon entirely. "Skills are for scrubs, use the cheapest teams that rely on RNG."
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
compared to mmx and waterceus, ogre is way harder to justify on a team because, as a revenge killer, it fails to revenge so much of the meta.
Things it cant reliably revenge: Ekiller, RP Groudon, Megaray, Geoxern, All CM Arceus formes, SD+Espeed on non-normal arceus, Gira-O, Deo-A, offensive Yveltal, Zearom, Blaziken, Kyurem-White. That is a very good portion of the offensive meta. Compare that to Scarf Xern which is a more effective lure not made semi-worthless by priority and faster than a number of those mons, scarf Kyu-W which is faster and has useful resists with better bulk, or Genesect with pivoting, Espeed resist, explosion, coverage, and hitting darkrai through sub shenanigans. Even Ditto. Kyogre really isn't all that unique
The main things this has going for it over the others are the strong Water Spout (nice but unreliable), strength of origin pulse under rain (these two things are what make it not shit) and Sheer Cold to cheese through things like Groudon. But the unreliable nature of an OHKO move means that you cant keep it at an inflated rank because it might hit and win. Not to mention how worthless this is against Arceus spam. I'm not calling it awful, getting it in at the right time can be devastating with Water Spout. But its unreliable nature should be keeping it back from such a high rank. Both of you have admitted it needs its unreliable OHKO move to work and other than that it was basically "rng is reliable" (lol) and "groudon isn't on every team" (still a massive annoying force for it that gives it a ton of pressure)
 
compared to mmx and waterceus, ogre is way harder to justify on a team because, as a revenge killer, it fails to revenge so much of the meta.
Things it cant reliably revenge: Ekiller, RP Groudon, Megaray, Geoxern, All CM Arceus formes, SD+Espeed on non-normal arceus, Gira-O, Deo-A, offensive Yveltal, Zearom, Blaziken, Kyurem-White. That is a very good portion of the offensive meta. Compare that to Scarf Xern which is a more effective lure not made semi-worthless by priority and faster than a number of those mons, scarf Kyu-W which is faster and has useful resists with better bulk, or Genesect with pivoting, Espeed resist, explosion, coverage, and hitting darkrai through sub shenanigans. Even Ditto. Kyogre really isn't all that unique
The main things this has going for it over the others are the strong Water Spout (nice but unreliable), strength of origin pulse under rain (these two things are what make it not shit) and Sheer Cold to cheese through things like Groudon. But the unreliable nature of an OHKO move means that you cant keep it at an inflated rank because it might hit and win. Not to mention how worthless this is against Arceus spam. I'm not calling it awful, getting it in at the right time can be devastating with Water Spout. But its unreliable nature should be keeping it back from such a high rank. Both of you have admitted it needs its unreliable OHKO move to work and other than that it was basically "rng is reliable" (lol) and "groudon isn't on every team" (still a massive annoying force for it that gives it a ton of pressure)
Uhh, how is MMX or Waterceus easier to justify on a team? Heck, I never see Waterceus.

252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I'd say that the damage isn't so bad, because it means that Kyogre can revenge kill at least two Arceus/Ray in a game, and that's nothing to scoff at. Geoxern can't set up on Kyogre, because it would take tons of damage from a STAB water move in rain. And if your team has no checks to both Arceus or Geoxern, you should probably revise your team. I don't really see how MMX or Waterceus might do any better. Gira-O = dies to Ice Beam. I don't recall a team with Deo-A ever peaking the ladder, but it dies to e-speed so no biggy. How does offensive Yveltal beat Kyogre? Life Orb Sucker Punch? "Zearom" takes a ton of damage from Ice Beam. Blaziken is eww, and it dies to Origin Pulse/Surf, that any Kyogre should carry. Kyu kind of can be revenge killed by many other stuff, as 95 speed isn't god tier, and it doesn't have the best bulk ever.

"...how worthless against Arceus spam." I think fainting at least two Arceus isn't bad.

"...it needs its unreliable OHKO move to work..." Yeah, let's just drop down Klefki to B, shall we? And unreliable it may be, using a team of 6 Scarf Kyogres with Sheer Cold will probably net you more wins against people like HunterStorm, than most teams used by people of 1700 rating. Relying on hax also means that you can beat people who are more skill than you, if RNG serves you well. Relying on skill means that you lose if your less skilled, or your team has a bad match up. And yeah, Groudon isn't on every team, and that's a good justification for its use. If P-don was banned in AG, Scarf Ogre will probably be S Rank, or at least A+. It does show that Kyogre is cold countered by one Pokemon, but it's a revenge killer, what can you expect? It's supposed to clean up weakened mons, late game.
Also,
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 131-155 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 93-110 (23 - 27.2%) -- 55.8% chance to 4HKO
Groudon isn't that bulky, a few SR damage and it'd be scared of the 2HKO on the switch in.
 
compared to mmx and waterceus, ogre is way harder to justify on a team because, as a revenge killer, it fails to revenge so much of the meta.
Things it cant reliably revenge: Ekiller, RP Groudon, Megaray, Geoxern, All CM Arceus formes, SD+Espeed on non-normal arceus, Gira-O, Deo-A, offensive Yveltal, Zearom, Blaziken, Kyurem-White. That is a very good portion of the offensive meta. Compare that to Scarf Xern which is a more effective lure not made semi-worthless by priority and faster than a number of those mons, scarf Kyu-W which is faster and has useful resists with better bulk, or Genesect with pivoting, Espeed resist, explosion, coverage, and hitting darkrai through sub shenanigans. Even Ditto. Kyogre really isn't all that unique
The main things this has going for it over the others are the strong Water Spout (nice but unreliable), strength of origin pulse under rain (these two things are what make it not shit) and Sheer Cold to cheese through things like Groudon. But the unreliable nature of an OHKO move means that you cant keep it at an inflated rank because it might hit and win. Not to mention how worthless this is against Arceus spam. I'm not calling it awful, getting it in at the right time can be devastating with Water Spout. But its unreliable nature should be keeping it back from such a high rank. Both of you have admitted it needs its unreliable OHKO move to work and other than that it was basically "rng is reliable" (lol) and "groudon isn't on every team" (still a massive annoying force for it that gives it a ton of pressure)
I'll just say that quite some pokemon stated by you aren't even used towards the higher ladder, those are : Zekrom, Scarf Kyu-W, Blaziken (Blaziken doesn't outspeed with the speed boost unless jolly). The common ones (except CM Arceus Formes, they lose 1v1 however) such as Ekiller, Physical Arceus Formes, Gira-O, M-Ray are all either checked or countered by Yveltal (Lugia stalls out everything ~LLW). And that is quite reasonable for a mon in B. Also, Geo Xern can't quite set-up on Scarf-Ogre, if you were talking about using geo on the switch-in, that's another case all together.

I agree that it doesn't do too well against Ekiller Spam teams and will be able to take out only one Arceus. B-but everything has its limitations.

[252+ SpA Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus in Rain: 282-333 (74 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO]
 
Last edited:

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
I'm gonna be totally honest, I was planning to drop the matter of ogre but I only feel obligated to respond because these are some of the worst arguments I've ever seen on a VR thread. I want to sort of apologize in advance, but also still go through with it because I can't just not respond to the ridiculous points. RANT BEGINS HERE
Uhh, how is MMX or Waterceus easier to justify on a team? Heck, I never see Waterceus.
They have far more unique niches than ogre
252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So it has about 38% chance to KO at +2 after SR and that's if kyogre is at full. Plus no boosted water spout. Sounds crappy to me.

I'd say that the damage isn't so bad, because it means that Kyogre can revenge kill at least two Arceus/Ray in a game, and that's nothing to scoff at.
?_? Do you know what revenge means? You have to come in after it's KOed something and take it out. With arceus that almost guarantees it's at +2, ogre can't beat that. It doesn't even KO after SR with origin pulse so at the very worst Arceus goes down and Ogre can't switch back in on SR (in a perfect 1v1 scenario where ogre doesnt miss and arceus doesnt get good rolls)
Geoxern can't set up on Kyogre, because it would take tons of damage from a STAB water move in rain.
Ogre cannot revenge it which is a scarfer's job. Plus it can take Origin Pulse after SR so if water spout is too weakened Xern can just Geo up and KO ogre. But yeah my point was how it fails to actually beat boosting sweepers
And if your team has no checks to both Arceus or Geoxern, you should probably revise your team.
Again, ignoring the point that ogre just kinda sucks against a good portion of the meta
I don't really see how MMX or Waterceus might do any better.
I almost quit here .-. they do totally different things than ogre, the difference is they do them way better
Gira-O = dies to Ice Beam.
Actually ice beam does half and at worst if all you can do is eq+sneak you only need slightly above average rolls so it cant switch back into SR. It was just an example of a water resist that can check ogre though, certainly not a reliable switch or anything.
I don't recall a team with Deo-A ever peaking the ladder, but it dies to e-speed so no big.
Why does it need to peak the ladder for it to be good? That's a total non sequitur. Anyway, it's just another example of something that can beat it. Plus, kyogre doesnt get Espeed and if you were seriously suggesting that Deo-A dying to a totally different Pokemon's extremespeed means it's irrelevant as a check to Kyogre then I suggest you reevaluate what you know about this game.
How does offensive Yveltal beat Kyogre? Life Orb Sucker Punch?
yes
"Zearom" takes a ton of damage from Ice Beam.
It also outspeeds and OHKOs. That's what a check does. What's the issue with this.
Blaziken is eww, and it dies to Origin Pulse/Surf, that any Kyogre should carry.
And it can outspeed and do a crapton. Just another thing to list.
Kyu kind of can be revenge killed by many other stuff, as 95 speed isn't god tier, and it doesn't have the best bulk ever.
"Primal Groudon can be revenge killed by other things that aren't Kyogre, 90 speed isn't god tier and it's weak to Earthquake. Therefore it isn't a Kyogre check" No seriously what this is so dumb
"...how worthless against Arceus spam." I think fainting at least two Arceus isn't bad.
In your unrealistic perfect scenario, sure
"...it needs its unreliable OHKO move to work..." Yeah, let's just drop down Klefki to B, shall we?
Yeah! Klefki doesnt have good defensive typing and prankster and 2 moves that work together to make you less likely to get an attack off than do nothing/hit yourself at all! Totally same thing as a 30% move that could make your scarfer useless!
And unreliable it may be, using a team of 6 Scarf Kyogres with Sheer Cold will probably net you more wins against people like HunterStorm, than most teams used by people of 1700 rating.
Well maybe this is true because ladder sucks and hunter is good. But the fact remains that unreliable strats like that aren't what you rank high. By your logic, Liepard should be S rank because full prankster swagger teams /could/ win if you get lucky.
Relying on hax also means that you can beat people who are more skill than you, if RNG serves you well. Relying on skill means that you lose if your less skilled, or your team has a bad match up.
This may very well be the worst quote of the lot, I shouldnt have to explain why, but oh well. Luck strats aren't what are considered more viable. Viability comes from trying to use good teams to win on skill. Luck is an entirely different plan, but the unreliability makes it less viable. This is why it's a viability ranking. Certain strats can work with luck, such as using sheer cold or klefki, but they're not reliable in the long run. Viability is determined by two good players of equal skill. We're talking good scenarios here, not "this is a good strat for shitty people". 6 Ogres or 6 quick claw walrein or whatever isn't reliable, isn't how we rank. Luck in cases such as this is not a boon.
And yeah, Groudon isn't on every team, and that's a good justification for its use.
It's still a very common S rank that has a massive impact on Kyogre's viability, why not list it?
If P-don was banned in AG, Scarf Ogre will probably be S Rank, or at least A+.
I doubt this very much but it's theorymon anyway so no good way to prove anything
It does show that Kyogre is cold countered by one Pokemon, but it's a revenge killer, what can you expect? It's supposed to clean up weakened mons, late game.
Yes, and I don't see how losing to a very common and good S rank could possible effect its viability. In fact, having a poor matchup versus every single S rank in the tier probably just goes to show how manly it is, and we should rank it even higher.
Also,
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 131-155 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 93-110 (23 - 27.2%) -- 55.8% chance to 4HKO
Groudon isn't that bulky, a few SR damage and it'd be scared of the 2HKO on the switch in.
Great! If I get this perfect scenario and predict right every time I can eventually break through it! I bet they don't have SR up either so I can still use full power water spout while I'm at it! Yes, Ogre gets through eventually, but the matchup still really sucks and in a competitive setting the Pdon user can capitalize on that. Prediction goes both ways
RANT OVER
I'll just say that quite some pokemon stated by you aren't even used towards the higher ladder, those are : Zekrom, Scarf Kyu-W, Blaziken (Blaziken doesn't outspeed with the speed boost unless jolly). The common ones (except CM Arceus Formes, they lose 1v1 however) such as Ekiller, Physical Arceus Formes, Gira-O, M-Ray are all either checked or countered by Yveltal (Lugia stalls out everything ~LLW). And that is quite reasonable for a mon in B+. Also, Geo Xern can't quite set-up on Scarf-Ogre, if you were talking about using geo on the switch-in, that's another case all together.

I agree that it doesn't do too well against Ekiller Spam teams and will be able to take out only one Arceus. B-but everything has its limitations.

[252+ SpA Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus in Rain: 282-333 (74 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO]
I don't have much to say in response to this since it isn't incredibly stupid, but high ladder doesnt equate to viability, nothing I listed was below B rank with the exception of the C+ Blaziken. The fact that all the mons lose to Yveltal kinda helps but still doesn't mean that they're any worse checks to ogre (oh and also most of those don't really lose to yveltal like KyuW and Zekrom and arceus if it's offensive yveltal). And idk that it's taking out one arceus fsr, it has a good chance to die to 2/+2 after sr and can't deal with boosted arc at all making it a liability in general

Also, I didn't even list all the ogre checks, there's also Latios/as, Dialga, Palkia, regular Tina, Lugia (full health can stall with multiscale), Skymin, and Ditto. C+ and up. These are not reliable switch-ins, most lack recovery, and with the proper coverage Ogre can do well against them. But once it's locked in these are all totally acceptable checks that are only serving to prove that ogre is not too hard to check offensively. All of this being said I wouldn't mind a simple drop to B where ogre would fit in much better than it does in B+. I'm not overly concerned with its ranking. But that post triggered me.

Sorry for taking up so much of this thread with what I thought was a fairly obvious nomination (I mean not that there aren't good arguments for ogre, just that those weren't it)
 
Last edited:
(Just clarifying)

Well yes, scarf ogre doesn't do too well, b-but I guess you need to take into account the mons being used on the ladder currently in order to have it ranked properly. The majority mons you've mentioned in the post are the ones that have not even seen that much use. Yeah Lugia does stall it out at full health, and I said Yveltal counters the most common mons you mentioned that counter/check ogre (Arceus, M-Ray, Gira).

I wanted to say that it deserves to be in 'B-Rank', not specifically any sub-rank, I'll take care about reading my posts more carefully.
Also, you send the mon weak to a particular type of team first so that it puts in some work and dies rather than not doing anything.

I'll try to further improve the quality of my posts.
Hail Carrot!
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
(Just clarifying)

Well yes, scarf ogre doesn't do too well, b-but I guess you need to take into account the mons being used on the ladder currently in order to have it ranked properly. The majority mons you've mentioned in the post are the ones that have not even seen that much use. Yeah Lugia does stall it out at full health, and I said Yveltal counters the most common mons you mentioned that counter/check ogre (Arceus, M-Ray, Gira).

I wanted to say that it deserves to be in 'B-Rank', not specifically any sub-rank, I'll take care about reading my posts more carefully.
Also, you send the mon weak to a particular type of team first so that it puts in some work and dies rather than not doing anything.

I'll try to further improve the quality of my posts.
Hail Carrot!
no i was saying his post sucked not yours therefore I have less to say about yours. But the point I have in response is... no. You don't need to take the ladder into account. You need to take good teams into account. Don't base your arguments on below average teams if you don't have to, I'd rather play josh and gunner than whoever's currently peaked. I don't care that Deo-A has little ladder usage, it's also rly good and people are dumb. Ladder doesnt use Skarmory, Latias, Skymin? Their loss.
 
I wonder if Magnemite can go to D rank. Glalie for C-, imo.

Considering that Magnemite has excellent moves to make it theoretically one of the best Pokemon in AG.

Magnemite @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 7
EVs: 180 SpA / 124 SpD / 204 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 8 HP
- Magic Coat
- Toxic
- Recycle
- Volt Switch

Endure could be slashed over Volt Switch if manual switching is all that's needed. Endure can also swap over Toxic, if this team can get Toxic or Will-O-Wisp support. This Pokemon requires absolutely ridiculous amount of prediction, and probably shouldn't be used seriously. This Pokemon has almost no counters. Only counter to this thing is PP stalling (which applies to every mon in existence), Mold Breaker, moves like Sacred Fire, and SR or Spikes. Being Steel Electric is huge, as that means that it's completely immune to poison and paralysis. And not all Pokemon has substitute, which means that they can easily be Toxic Stalled. This thing greatly appreciates Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock support. By utilizing Volt Switch properly, Magnemite can switch out when a threat comes into play (Such as Ho-oh or Arceus Steel). In theory, nothing but Steel types can switch in without risking the chance of getting Toxic'd. This means that Pokemon such as Darkrai can't function as a counter, as it could be poisoned and Dark Void or Dark Pulse could be predicted accordingly. Using Substitute will also shorten a Pokemon's life, if it's poisoned and has no recovery moves. (inb4 Rest Darkrai) The only real threats to this Magnemite is a set up Steelceus, Klefki with Swagger and Substitue, Ho-oh, and Darkrai. Foul Play also won't function as a counter to Magnemite, for obvious reasons. Any threat to this mon can easily by avoided by proper prediction and switching or Volt Switch. The fact that Recycle has only 16 PPs will severely limit this Pokemon's ability to Toxic Stall, but it's a start. This Pokemon is the epitome of how "skill" should work in Pokemon, imo. However, it is completely unrealistic and probably wouldn't work in practice. Still better than things like Articuno or Aron. Protect might also be worth using, as it would allow Magnemite to theoretically stall for 33 turns before dying.

As for Glalie, I think I forwarded it before, but I'm doing it again.

Glalie @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 204 HP / 52 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Frost Breath

This is probably the best set possible for Glalie. I personally run a set of 204 HP 128 Def 176 Spe with Timid and 0 Attack IV, but Transcendent God Champion apparently uses this set for maximum speed. 176 speed for outspeeding Mewtwo at +1. Considering that 52 defense is enough to attain this bulk:
252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. +2 204 HP / 52 Def Glalie: 70-84 (19.8 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Or the ability to set up a sub or an Arceus at +2 defense, which is VERY advantageous. And the ability to outspeed max speed neutral natured base 90s makes it better than my previous set. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-305138697 shows how a team that revolves around Moody Glalie can work. Glalie itself doesn't actually even need a team build around it. As long as it is on a team Toxic Spikes support, and a Pokemon that can counter Xerneas and Arceus, Glalie can function at full potential. Glalie can set up on many Pokemon, from Klefki, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Chansey/Blissey, and pretty much any Pokemon that is slower than itself. Pokemon with access to both moves that can OHKO Glalie and a phazing move is its biggest threat. Glalie is also theoretically one of the best Pokemon in AG, as Glalie could use Protect on turn 1, and if it gets either Speed, Evasion, or Defense/SpD, it wins. If it doesn't get its desired boosts, (which is 4/7 chance) it can switch out and try again. Moody is also different from Speed Boost in another way. Moody activates on the turn that the Pokemon is switched in on, meaning that if a Pokemon is phazed, it can sometimes lead to a loss for the opponent if Glalie comes in from the phazing move and gets the desired boost.
 

chlo

snug
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I wonder if Magnemite can go to D rank. Glalie for C-, imo.

Considering that Magnemite has excellent moves to make it theoretically one of the best Pokemon in AG.

Magnemite @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 7
EVs: 180 SpA / 124 SpD / 204 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 8 HP
- Magic Coat
- Toxic
- Recycle
- Volt Switch

Endure could be slashed over Volt Switch if manual switching is all that's needed. Endure can also swap over Toxic, if this team can get Toxic or Will-O-Wisp support. This Pokemon requires absolutely ridiculous amount of prediction, and probably shouldn't be used seriously. This Pokemon has almost no counters. Only counter to this thing is PP stalling (which applies to every mon in existence), Mold Breaker, moves like Sacred Fire, and SR or Spikes. Being Steel Electric is huge, as that means that it's completely immune to poison and paralysis. And not all Pokemon has substitute, which means that they can easily be Toxic Stalled. This thing greatly appreciates Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock support. By utilizing Volt Switch properly, Magnemite can switch out when a threat comes into play (Such as Ho-oh or Arceus Steel). In theory, nothing but Steel types can switch in without risking the chance of getting Toxic'd. This means that Pokemon such as Darkrai can't function as a counter, as it could be poisoned and Dark Void or Dark Pulse could be predicted accordingly. Using Substitute will also shorten a Pokemon's life, if it's poisoned and has no recovery moves. (inb4 Rest Darkrai) The only real threats to this Magnemite is a set up Steelceus, Klefki with Swagger and Substitue, Ho-oh, and Darkrai. Foul Play also won't function as a counter to Magnemite, for obvious reasons. Any threat to this mon can easily by avoided by proper prediction and switching or Volt Switch. The fact that Recycle has only 16 PPs will severely limit this Pokemon's ability to Toxic Stall, but it's a start. This Pokemon is the epitome of how "skill" should work in Pokemon, imo. However, it is completely unrealistic and probably wouldn't work in practice. Still better than things like Articuno or Aron. Protect might also be worth using, as it would allow Magnemite to theoretically stall for 33 turns before dying.

As for Glalie, I think I forwarded it before, but I'm doing it again.

Glalie @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 204 HP / 52 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Frost Breath

This is probably the best set possible for Glalie. I personally run a set of 204 HP 128 Def 176 Spe with Timid and 0 Attack IV, but Transcendent God Champion apparently uses this set for maximum speed. 176 speed for outspeeding Mewtwo at +1. Considering that 52 defense is enough to attain this bulk:
252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. +2 204 HP / 52 Def Glalie: 70-84 (19.8 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Or the ability to set up a sub or an Arceus at +2 defense, which is VERY advantageous. And the ability to outspeed max speed neutral natured base 90s makes it better than my previous set. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-305138697 shows how a team that revolves around Moody Glalie can work. Glalie itself doesn't actually even need a team build around it. As long as it is on a team Toxic Spikes support, and a Pokemon that can counter Xerneas and Arceus, Glalie can function at full potential. Glalie can set up on many Pokemon, from Klefki, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Chansey/Blissey, and pretty much any Pokemon that is slower than itself. Pokemon with access to both moves that can OHKO Glalie and a phazing move is its biggest threat. Glalie is also theoretically one of the best Pokemon in AG, as Glalie could use Protect on turn 1, and if it gets either Speed, Evasion, or Defense/SpD, it wins. If it doesn't get its desired boosts, (which is 4/7 chance) it can switch out and try again. Moody is also different from Speed Boost in another way. Moody activates on the turn that the Pokemon is switched in on, meaning that if a Pokemon is phazed, it can sometimes lead to a loss for the opponent if Glalie comes in from the phazing move and gets the desired boost.
We unranked Aron for a reason..
No but seriously, Magnemite isn't really much better than Aron. Unlike Aron which takes two turns to work, Magnemite can take over eight. This means that if a user is trying to rely on a Sacred Fire burn, it's almost guaranteed that they'll get it.

Magnemite is walled by so much, but accomplishes so little when compared to other FEAR mons. Aron can break through a substitute, Magnemite cannot. Aron can effectively deplete an opponents HP in one turn, it takes so long for Magnemite. The only advantage Magnemite may have over Aron are the ability to hit Ghost types and also its access to Magic Coat. You can easily play around Magic Coat, by attacking and forcing them to recycle, so the logic here is quite flawed. (Aron is immune to Toxic, whereas no one should really bother to paralyse it).

This mon effectively fails if Stealth Rock is up, yep. You know that thing on every team, yea. You know that typing that a quarter of the meta gets, called Steel? Substitute sounds unique I wonder who uses that? Teravolt, pls who actually uses Zekrom? Taunt, what a garbage move. Magic Coat/Magic Bounce, they exist in the current metagame? Poison types as well, people use Poison Arceus? Multi-hit moves, I mean sure they're not relevant. I could continue on, but this isn't an organised debate, we're arguing whether a magnet has viability in a Legendary filled metagame.

Both Magnemite and Aron are unranked for a reason, they're as bad as each other.

Glalie however I can agree on. Once it gets going it's a real challenge to take down, often preventing any phazing or PSong shenanigans that would force other moody users out. It really is underrated in the current metagame. I don't see much merit in supporting this further, since all your points have been made.
 
We unranked Aron for a reason..
No but seriously, Magnemite isn't really much better than Aron. Unlike Aron which takes two turns to work, Magnemite can take over eight. This means that if a user is trying to rely on a Sacred Fire burn, it's almost guaranteed that they'll get it.

Magnemite is walled by so much, but accomplishes so little when compared to other FEAR mons. Aron can break through a substitute, Magnemite cannot. Aron can effectively deplete an opponents HP in one turn, it takes so long for Magnemite. The only advantage Magnemite may have over Aron are the ability to hit Ghost types and also its access to Magic Coat. You can easily play around Magic Coat, by attacking and forcing them to recycle, so the logic here is quite flawed. (Aron is immune to Toxic, whereas no one should really bother to paralyse it).

This mon effectively fails if Stealth Rock is up, yep. You know that thing on every team, yea. You know that typing that a quarter of the meta gets, called Steel? Substitute sounds unique I wonder who uses that? Teravolt, pls who actually uses Zekrom? Taunt, what a garbage move. Magic Coat/Magic Bounce, they exist in the current metagame? Poison types as well, people use Poison Arceus? Multi-hit moves, I mean sure they're not relevant. I could continue on, but this isn't an organised debate, we're arguing whether a magnet has viability in a Legendary filled metagame.

Both Magnemite and Aron are unranked for a reason, they're as bad as each other.

Glalie however I can agree on. Once it gets going it's a real challenge to take down, often preventing any phazing or PSong shenanigans that would force other moody users out. It really is underrated in the current metagame. I don't see much merit in supporting this further, since all your points have been made.
But, but, the magnet can beat SR via Rapid Spin support or Magic Coating when necessary. Steel type = Volt Switch on the switch in. Substitute beats the shit out of it, but only Darkrai uses it, right? Surely, no Steel/Poison Pokemon use it, so Toxic on the switch in is possible, making substitute an option for revenge killers. One can easily predict around the person who is trying to predict the Magic Coat, so your argument is kind flawed too. Also, I don't see Zekrom, RIP Zekrom. Taunt = Magic Coat. Magic Coat or Magic Bounce doesn't work, as Magnemite is immune to its own Toxic. I kind of forgot about Poison types, forgive me. Multi-hit moves, eh. Still, Magnemite is a good mon for a person with the ability to predict like a god. Otherwise, it's utter garbage. I was claiming that it deserves a mention, as it's probably less gimmicky than that stupid Articuno.

Okay, in all seriousness, please put Glalie on C- rank or something. It is probably the best Moody user around, and better than Smeargle. (Screw Spore, that shit doesn't work.) It seriously needs more mention. Seriously, a person peaked the ladder before, using a team of 6 Glalies. That in itself proves that Glalie can be viable, regardless of team support. (I don't think Glalie has moves like Defog, Aromatherapy, or any moves to support each other)
 
But, but, the magnet can beat SR via Rapid Spin support or Magic Coating when necessary. Steel type = Volt Switch on the switch in. Substitute beats the shit out of it, but only Darkrai uses it, right? Surely, no Steel/Poison Pokemon use it, so Toxic on the switch in is possible, making substitute an option for revenge killers. One can easily predict around the person who is trying to predict the Magic Coat, so your argument is kind flawed too. Also, I don't see Zekrom, RIP Zekrom. Taunt = Magic Coat. Magic Coat or Magic Bounce doesn't work, as Magnemite is immune to its own Toxic. I kind of forgot about Poison types, forgive me. Multi-hit moves, eh. Still, Magnemite is a good mon for a person with the ability to predict like a god. Otherwise, it's utter garbage. I was claiming that it deserves a mention, as it's probably less gimmicky than that stupid Articuno.

Okay, in all seriousness, please put Glalie on C- rank or something. It is probably the best Moody user around, and better than Smeargle. (Screw Spore, that shit doesn't work.) It seriously needs more mention. Seriously, a person peaked the ladder before, using a team of 6 Glalies. That in itself proves that Glalie can be viable, regardless of team support. (I don't think Glalie has moves like Defog, Aromatherapy, or any moves to support each other)
One of the things that make FEAR not very good in any tier is the amount of support needed to pull it off (e.g. accounting for hazards, obvious threats). Off the top of my head, Arceus (STEEL, POISON) formes use Substitute a lot, but there are probably others, at least some of which threaten Magnemite. On a side note, while this is kind of a summary, generally almost all teams have a way to deal with Fear pokemon.
Like Zangooser said, if Magnemite is ranked, Aron should be ranked. They're basically on par with each other, and are bad for the same reasons.
Try to clean up your posts a bit. You always try to cover every topic concerning the mon, but not in detail, which makes your stance on those parts a bit iffy sometimes. There are also some unnecessary parts of your posts usually, it makes the post a bit harder to read.
No comment on Glalie because never used it before.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top