I generally find that plates are useless. Wise Glasses, Muscle Band and Expert Belt are all superior, and achieve the same thing.
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Are unorthodox items viable?
- Thread starter twash
- Start date
Wise Glasses and Muscle Band give only a 10% Boost. Expert Belt only gives a boost when you hit super effectively. If you want a guaranteed 20% boost to a specific move or type of move, the Plates/their equivalent items are the place to go. This is especially true for Pokemon who frequently run a set with two or more moves of the same type (Aqua Jet + Waterfall DD Feraligatr, Outrage + Dracometeor Mixmence, etc).
True. On a Kabutops in the Rain, if I'm not running X-Scissor for Celebi or Brick Break for Empoleon (which means that I'll have Aqua Jet), I might use Mystic Water just to scare the opponent with the fact that I can't be stalled out due to Life Orb Recoil. Similarly, Fist Plate SDApe is perfectly viable, as is a pure NPApe (NP/Flame/FB/VW). Yes, it's that much effort to not abbreviate.
Exactly. I use Wide Lens on my Crobat anti-lead on the Standard ladder (on Suspect it gets OHKO'd by ScarfChomp Outrage):
Crobat @ Wide Lens
Timid: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hypnosis / Super Fang / Heat Wave / U-turn
Example of a typical matchup:
They send out Metagross.
I send out Crobat.
Hypnosis (got about a 90% chance now)
Lum activates, SR.
Hypnosis again.
They sleep.
They switch to Skarmory because they think "Ooh, free Spikes."
I nail them with Super Fang on the switch.
I use Heat Wave. Skarmory is KO'd. Or it misses by a few % and they get one layer.
Or they send in Scizor and get OHKO'd; Bullet Punch does about 60%.
Fact is, everything is nailed by Super Fang. 50% off is huge. Heat Wave puts a huge dent in all the Steels everywhere.
All this is because of Wide Lens - because of that, Hypnosis hits and Super Fang has close to 100% accuracy. Using Hypnosis by itself would be suicidal.
Another example: Toxic Orb Trick Jirachi. Strategy is simple: spam Flash Cannon, TBolt, and/or Psychic. This gives the impression its a ScarfJirachi (or not). Encourage that impression, then start CMing whenever. Now they don't know the item. May be Lum, Expert Belt, but no one expects Toxic Orb (which Jirachi isn't affected by). They won't be scared of being Trick'd an Expert Belt or Lum, so normally they stay in. Trick the Toxic Orb on a Celebi, Suicune, Blissey, Rotom-a, Vaporeon, whatever, and now they're stuck with permanent toxic. Again, Toxic Orb is the secret to this sets success. (Note that this isn't my set, I found it in the new creative moveset thread)
Isn't it more like a 66% chance? Wide lens is only a 10% boost, so wide lens hypnosis is still worse than DP hypnosis...otherwise I'd really like that as an anti-lead. When I see lead Crobat when I've got Meta out though, I just MM+BP, as it does min 99.5% to your spread, while if hypnosis even hits, I've still got Lum (I guess I always think lead crobat will taunt first for some reason)
Don't forget about Bronzong tricking Macho Brace, it's really a great alternative to Thunderwave. :S
However Clefairy tricking Flame Orb is pretty good, Razor Fang/King's Rock is funny on Togekiss or Jirachi, and Brightpowder was pretty crazy on this psychotic Gliscor set I once used (in a sandstorm)
Gliscor (Dodgy Stall)
Item: Brightpower
Ability: Sand Veil
Jolly Nature 216 Spd 252hp 40atk
-Mud Slap
-Fire Fang
-Roost
-Toxic
I never really worked out the ev's for it to work the best but he did some crazy stalling especially with SR and Spikes down. Boy it was fun
However Clefairy tricking Flame Orb is pretty good, Razor Fang/King's Rock is funny on Togekiss or Jirachi, and Brightpowder was pretty crazy on this psychotic Gliscor set I once used (in a sandstorm)
Gliscor (Dodgy Stall)
Item: Brightpower
Ability: Sand Veil
Jolly Nature 216 Spd 252hp 40atk
-Mud Slap
-Fire Fang
-Roost
-Toxic
I never really worked out the ev's for it to work the best but he did some crazy stalling especially with SR and Spikes down. Boy it was fun
I have my doubts on this. Although power herb can provide quite a hard punching gimmick, it's standardization would be quite hampered by it's one-shot nature. Seeing as it's an highly offesive item, wouldn't pairing LO and a lower power move be a better option?
On the Standard team I used to use, one of my most successful teams, I used a Lead Metagross with an Occa Berry, but it wasn't in the lead position. After I Spored my opponent's lead with Scarf Breloom, I would switch to Metagross, and two common switch-ins for the double switch were Heatran and Infernape. The would, most of the time, use Fire moves, and I would survive and OHKO with Earthquake. The rise in Scizor usage has made this set somewhat obsolete due to how often people send it in on double switches, but I could start using a similar set with Natural Gift once Shoddy Battle 2 is up. Natural Gift would let me OHKO Scizor. I don't play Wi-fi, but I would think that such a strategy with Scarfloom and Occa Metagross would work even better there because you could use Natural Gift and because there would be no Rotom-a to wall you.
Kabutops @ Water Plate
Swords Dance
Waterfall
Aqua Jet
Rock slide
This guy is a champion late game sweeper in the rain. Water + rock = great neutral coverage, and even a +1 rock slide easily ohkos gyara and mence... a +2 rock slide has a 27% chance to flinch and 2hko vaporeon. He often survives an attack and sits right around 10% hp where with LO his sweep would quickly end.
Another rain dance example:
Qwilfish @ Shuca Berry
SD
Waterfall
Poison Jab / Aqua Jet
Explosion
Rain dance is all about an initial grab for momentum and then holding on to that momentum. This little guy survives earthquakes from bulky 'mons and subsequently forces the opponent to guess.
Then there's always...
Scizor @ Steel Plate or whatever
Adamant 40hp / 216 atk (bonus point) / 252 sp def
SD
Bullet punch
Roost
Light screen.../filler/ Rain dance
Will likely get a couple of boosts against anything not named heatran (a stab fire blast is a stab fire blast) and still has the potency to shoot down mence and friends, all while surviving at 1hp to prioritize the crap out of everyone. And hey, why not use it in the rain?
Swords Dance
Waterfall
Aqua Jet
Rock slide
This guy is a champion late game sweeper in the rain. Water + rock = great neutral coverage, and even a +1 rock slide easily ohkos gyara and mence... a +2 rock slide has a 27% chance to flinch and 2hko vaporeon. He often survives an attack and sits right around 10% hp where with LO his sweep would quickly end.
Another rain dance example:
Qwilfish @ Shuca Berry
SD
Waterfall
Poison Jab / Aqua Jet
Explosion
Rain dance is all about an initial grab for momentum and then holding on to that momentum. This little guy survives earthquakes from bulky 'mons and subsequently forces the opponent to guess.
Then there's always...
Scizor @ Steel Plate or whatever
Adamant 40hp / 216 atk (bonus point) / 252 sp def
SD
Bullet punch
Roost
Light screen.../filler/ Rain dance
Will likely get a couple of boosts against anything not named heatran (a stab fire blast is a stab fire blast) and still has the potency to shoot down mence and friends, all while surviving at 1hp to prioritize the crap out of everyone. And hey, why not use it in the rain?
Haha... I never knew Lum berry was really "unorthodox". I use it a lot. Its great for effectively getting a "free Turn" where you can set up or substitute.
In the Manaphy test i used a passho tran. So i always had a chance to explode on it. Passho is also the best name of all the berries.
I was looking around on the site when I stumbled on this page: http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/air_mail
Apparently, mail causes trick to fail. This could actually be very useful on things that hate to be tricked a scarf. Certain leads would consider running mail, and I know I would definitely run it on any Blissey so that it fears nothing from latias/rotom.
Mail should certainly be implemented in Shoddy Battle 2.
Apparently, mail causes trick to fail. This could actually be very useful on things that hate to be tricked a scarf. Certain leads would consider running mail, and I know I would definitely run it on any Blissey so that it fears nothing from latias/rotom.
Mail should certainly be implemented in Shoddy Battle 2.
@iKitsune: who are you kidding? Liechi is the best name for a berry. Well, maybe Rindo, but I digress.
Unorthodox items can be quite effective depending on the circumstances. For example, during my Ninjask testing (in Ubers: I wouldn't be caught dead using Ninjask in OU), I led off my Ubers Combo Team with this pair.
Rayquaza entering the field with +1 Attack, guaranteed due to Liechi Berry, and anywhere from +1 to +6 Speed is equal to a Dragon Dance or more. Rayquaza also can find it relatively easy to Swords Dance, not to mention that it gives the Dragon some standalone value. But Lum Berry is great because the new tech that is LeadOgre loves to run Thunder Wave, and a Lum Berry shuts down their attempt to cripple my prized sweeper. I'm not too worried about Ice Beam because I have Dialga as my other recipient.
I honestly think Liechi Berry should be used on the Standard Ninjask, with Leftovers relegated to the Speed Passer. Lum Berry is a great option on any sweeper to make sure that the opponent can't kill you with switch-stalling. And although this is Ubers, the lessons still apply to OU: use Berries not as gimmicks, but as tools to beat the metagame. In Ubers, Ninjask has a really easy time passing Speed for reasons I explain in its discussion thread, but a hard time passing anything else. Liechi Berry solves that particular issue by guaranteeing it a modicum of attack. Any sweeper that might be threatened by status can make use of a Lum Berry, but Salamence/Dragonite/Kingdra in OU and Rayquaza/Dialga/Palkia in Ubers make particularly great use of it due to Outrage. Not to mention that many of their checks take advantage of Life Orb recoil, so deny that to them!
This is huge. Support-oriented (Dual Screen/Baton Pass) teams would love this. I can't see myself using it on Blissey, but just maybe...
Unorthodox items can be quite effective depending on the circumstances. For example, during my Ninjask testing (in Ubers: I wouldn't be caught dead using Ninjask in OU), I led off my Ubers Combo Team with this pair.
Code:
Ninjask (M) @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 226 Atk/108 Def/176 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Baton Pass
---
Rayquaza @ Lum Berry
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 242 Atk/252 Spd/16 SAtk
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Extremespeed
- Flamethrower
---Rayquaza entering the field with +1 Attack, guaranteed due to Liechi Berry, and anywhere from +1 to +6 Speed is equal to a Dragon Dance or more. Rayquaza also can find it relatively easy to Swords Dance, not to mention that it gives the Dragon some standalone value. But Lum Berry is great because the new tech that is LeadOgre loves to run Thunder Wave, and a Lum Berry shuts down their attempt to cripple my prized sweeper. I'm not too worried about Ice Beam because I have Dialga as my other recipient.
I honestly think Liechi Berry should be used on the Standard Ninjask, with Leftovers relegated to the Speed Passer. Lum Berry is a great option on any sweeper to make sure that the opponent can't kill you with switch-stalling. And although this is Ubers, the lessons still apply to OU: use Berries not as gimmicks, but as tools to beat the metagame. In Ubers, Ninjask has a really easy time passing Speed for reasons I explain in its discussion thread, but a hard time passing anything else. Liechi Berry solves that particular issue by guaranteeing it a modicum of attack. Any sweeper that might be threatened by status can make use of a Lum Berry, but Salamence/Dragonite/Kingdra in OU and Rayquaza/Dialga/Palkia in Ubers make particularly great use of it due to Outrage. Not to mention that many of their checks take advantage of Life Orb recoil, so deny that to them!
This is huge. Support-oriented (Dual Screen/Baton Pass) teams would love this. I can't see myself using it on Blissey, but just maybe...
Theorymon found this out a few weeks/months ago and tested out Mail Wobbuffet in ubers. You're slightly slow :P. I forget how it did though.
Unorthrodox items add lots of flavor to the metagame. One of my most favorite" unusual" items would be the famous Salac Berry. Fuck Jolteon and Aerodactyl and Crobat. The salac helped me achieve many sweeps that normal movesets couldn't do. It especially helped against fast revenge sweepers such as Deoxys, Gengar, and the like. Here's an example:
Rotom-W, in a rain dance team, can set up with charge beam and survive an attack by 25% with a little less HP IV's. Charge beam, Shadow ball, and Hydro pump provide plenty of coverage, especially against Shedinja and Magnezone, two of the biggest checks. However, the beauty here is Rotom's support move: Pain split.
Once my Salac Berry has activated against a powerful move that doesn't quite faint it, but pretty close, or some moves that score at least a 2-KO, I can predict a move and use Pain split to survive assaults at near 50-80%. With my charged-up special attack and a quite high speed, I achieve a near-perfect sweep. The only times this set has failed me is against critical hits, and if Hydro pump or Charge beam happen to miss >>.
It's also useful on something like Mismagius, who's easily revenged sweeped against latias and Gengar. Simple Substitute to the Salac, Nasty Plotting if possible.
Rotom-W, in a rain dance team, can set up with charge beam and survive an attack by 25% with a little less HP IV's. Charge beam, Shadow ball, and Hydro pump provide plenty of coverage, especially against Shedinja and Magnezone, two of the biggest checks. However, the beauty here is Rotom's support move: Pain split.
Once my Salac Berry has activated against a powerful move that doesn't quite faint it, but pretty close, or some moves that score at least a 2-KO, I can predict a move and use Pain split to survive assaults at near 50-80%. With my charged-up special attack and a quite high speed, I achieve a near-perfect sweep. The only times this set has failed me is against critical hits, and if Hydro pump or Charge beam happen to miss >>.
It's also useful on something like Mismagius, who's easily revenged sweeped against latias and Gengar. Simple Substitute to the Salac, Nasty Plotting if possible.
I use wise glasses on my heatran. Faking the choice item, then they switch into something that absorbs say fire blast, I substitute instead. Or if they switch into something with a resistance hoping to set up (Maybe like DD T-tar) I can catch them with Earth Power.
I love endure, salac SD ape. Endure to activate Blaze+Salac and sweep
I used to like using Metagross @ Iron Ball with Trick, the idea being that Metagross' two biggest counters are Rotom and Skarmory due to a lack of good SE move to use against them. After tricking Iron Ball onto them, you can hit each with a full power SE Earthquake. Now that Metagross learns Gravity, this is sort of outclassed, but it still remains an effective way of allowing Metagross to get by some of his "hard" counters.
I used to experiment with a lot of items. You see a lot of unorthodox item use in the Pokemon Console games. I remember Power Herb and some others that really perplexed me but were run well. My favorite has to be Sticky Barb + Toxic + Eternal Sandstorm Jirachi running Trick. Along, with Rocks damage...say goodbye.
I used Shuca Lucario before. I made that whole damn topic with dozens of calculations showing that it is only really stopped by Heatran or Scarf Rotom (who can not OHKO anyway).
Curse Rindo Berry Swampert actually has a good chance of beating Celebi if its down to 70% or so. +1 Avalanche OHKOs Zapdos an Earthquake wrecks most other HP Grass users.
Curse Rindo Berry Swampert actually has a good chance of beating Celebi if its down to 70% or so. +1 Avalanche OHKOs Zapdos an Earthquake wrecks most other HP Grass users.
One idea:
Duskull Lv1@Custab Berry
EVs/IVs/Nature doesn't matter
Endure
Destiny Bond
Will-o-Wisp
Shadow Sneak
First two moves are the obvious combo, the rest deals with other Lv1 guys. Watch out for Entry Hazards/Sandstorm though (might be a good lead, I hope Duskull does learn endure. If not, any other poke with Endure and DB does fit.
Duskull Lv1@Custab Berry
EVs/IVs/Nature doesn't matter
Endure
Destiny Bond
Will-o-Wisp
Shadow Sneak
First two moves are the obvious combo, the rest deals with other Lv1 guys. Watch out for Entry Hazards/Sandstorm though (might be a good lead, I hope Duskull does learn endure. If not, any other poke with Endure and DB does fit.
Here's a UU example of a Lansat Berry set:
Kingler @ Lansat Berry
Adamant
252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 Def
~ Substitute
~ Agility
~ Crabhammer
~ Return
Bring Kingler in on something it scares, Agility on the switch. Sub down to activate the Lansat berry, and sweep with 498 speed, 394 attack, unresisted coverage and a 90 BP STAB attack with a 33.3% chance to crit.
Kingler can take the occasional physical priority hit (I think), but Shedinja stops his sweep cold. Curse you Shedinja.
Edit: I guess you could try a similar set with Drapion and Night Slash / Earthquake, but its attack isn't so great. Then again, with Sniper...
Kingler @ Lansat Berry
Adamant
252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 Def
~ Substitute
~ Agility
~ Crabhammer
~ Return
Bring Kingler in on something it scares, Agility on the switch. Sub down to activate the Lansat berry, and sweep with 498 speed, 394 attack, unresisted coverage and a 90 BP STAB attack with a 33.3% chance to crit.
Kingler can take the occasional physical priority hit (I think), but Shedinja stops his sweep cold. Curse you Shedinja.
Edit: I guess you could try a similar set with Drapion and Night Slash / Earthquake, but its attack isn't so great. Then again, with Sniper...