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I was reading the ADV OU viability rankings. In particular, I'm a bit puzzled by Jolteon being ranked ahead of Raikou. I understand the niches that Jolteon has over Raikou (Baton Pass, extra Speed, and Volt Absorb), but I thought CM Raikou was one of OU's premier threats in ADV. Is Jolteon the preferred option for most teams?
 
I was reading the ADV OU viability rankings. In particular, I'm a bit puzzled by Jolteon being ranked ahead of Raikou. I understand the niches that Jolteon has over Raikou (Baton Pass, extra Speed, and Volt Absorb), but I thought CM Raikou was one of OU's premier threats in ADV. Is Jolteon the preferred option for most teams?
Dugtrio is a huge reason, since it's very difficult for Raikou to avoid being a free KO, whereas Jolt can outspeed and bp out. I also don't think it's good enough to be a premier threat regardless (potent no doubt, but probably not meta-defining or anything), but perhaps that's something someone else can discuss since I'm not much of an adv player. Off the top of my head special walls still give it trouble and it also has issues with other ground types
 
I remember how in SM OU, before arena trap was banned, Dugtrio was one of the best stall Pokemon because it can trap and eliminate the opponent's one most threatening stallbreaker. In which other generations can it do something similar for stall?
Also, what does TSS stand for?
 
Dugtrio has always done that since abilities existed, it's just better at it in Gen 7 due to the pretty hefty 20 base Attack boost it received.

Toxic/Spikes/Sandstorm. i.e. passive damage sources
 
I was reading the ADV OU viability rankings. In particular, I'm a bit puzzled by Jolteon being ranked ahead of Raikou. I understand the niches that Jolteon has over Raikou (Baton Pass, extra Speed, and Volt Absorb), but I thought CM Raikou was one of OU's premier threats in ADV. Is Jolteon the preferred option for most teams?
You mostly answered yourself already. Where Raikou has the edge in access to Calm Mind and better overall bulk, Jolteon takes the cake everywhere else. Its Speed is by far the number one selling point, as it outspeeds everything else in the tier bar tying with other Jolteon and Aerodactyl. Volt Absorb also makes it a fantastic partner for Mons that attract Electric moves (Skarmory, Gengar, any non-Swampert Water Mon) - so much so that the core is a fairly common team archetype in ADV, called "Jolteon Spikes," or similar. Jolteon basically functions as a special wall on these otherwise more frail offensive Spikes teams, where it can pivot Thunderbolts and switch into opposing Gengar at least once. It is more prediction reliant than a Blissey of course, but the trade off is that a well played Jolteon Spikes team can maintain offensive pressure on the opponent from start to finish. The combination of Roar + Baton Pass makes Jolteon the ultimate Spikes abuser, and it can even BP out of a full HP Dugtrio, whereas Raikou would be trapped and immediately OHKO'd, unless behind a Substitute.

In addition to the Dugtrio vulnerability, Raikou has zero way to heal itself outside of Rest (a sleeping Raikou is the ultimate Dugtrio bait), and in general suffers from a lack of offensive firepower, ironically enough. You might bring it in against a Suicune and force it out, Calm Minding on the switch, but everything that switches into Raikou can either OHKO it, while you can not in return (Tyranitar, Snorlax, Swampert if HP Ice, even a Metagross can come in after a sac, etc.), or wall it forever (Blissey). These situations are not as straightforward as I am making them out to be, but once you use Raikou over the course of 10 or so games, you will understand what I'm saying. It is a very flawed Pokemon in general. Another small but important fact is that Jolly DD Tar outspeeds it at +1, so Raikou is not even a reliable revenge killer against all DD Tar - or really any but a <40% HP Adamant one, to be honest.

Regarding the last line, Raikou being considered a premier OU threat, this was true many years ago when the metagame looked completely different. Much of the site's ADV resources were written upwards of 10 years ago, so they are not always reliable.

I hope my answer helped you.

What's a good RSE OU Dugtrio stall team?
Pretty generic question but if I had to give you just one answer I would say Suicune / Skarmory / Gengar / Blissey / Claydol / Dugtrio. It is a rather self explanatory build that aims to sweep around either last Mon CM Cune, or Spikes plus Gengar beforehand.

Alternatively, you can use Skarmory / Blissey / Swampert / Gengar / Tyranitar / Dugtrio. Similar to the team above, but with Sand added to the mix. This version is significantly more Skarmory weak though so beware.

If one were wanting to run a mixed attacker Venusaur set in R/S/E what would a moveset for it look like? I'm working on a comic project which is why I would like to know.
Kind of a tricky question to answer since mixed attacking Venusaur is basically just the bulky special wall set that runs Sludge Bomb / Leech Seed / Grass STAB (I prefer Giga Drain) / Sleep Powder. For this set, you are going to have to use one of a -Att, -SpA, or -Spe nature, so that is up to you to decide. I usually go -Spe but -Att is acceptable too since Sludge Bomb is primarily used for hitting Electrics, who you wall anyway, and other Mons on the switch, like Salamence. 30% chance of Poison is lovely, so the loss of power isn't as noticeable.

Venusaur @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 24 SpA / 176 SpD / 56 Spe
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb

Something like this will probably be fine. You have Grass STAB, so it's quite useful to oustpeed things like Bold Suicune, most Tyranitar, Milotic, etc. Venusaur is massive Skarmory bait though so pair this with either a Magneton, a Spinner, or other heavy anti-Skarmory measures.

If you are wanting an offensive mixed attacking set, then perhaps Sludge Bomb / Grass move / HP Fire / Sleep Powder could do the trick. For this one, I'd go 252+ SpA - necessary if you want HP Fire to actually "damage" Steel types (reminder:
252+ SpA Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 127-150 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery), quite a bit of Speed, and the rest in HP. Maybe something like this:

Venusaur @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Mild Nature
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb

The bulk isn't as important on this set since you are offensive, so the -Def nature doesn't hurt as much.

Hope this helped.
 
You mostly answered yourself already. Where Raikou has the edge in access to Calm Mind and better overall bulk, Jolteon takes the cake everywhere else. Its Speed is by far the number one selling point, as it outspeeds everything else in the tier bar tying with other Jolteon and Aerodactyl. Volt Absorb also makes it a fantastic partner for Mons that attract Electric moves (Skarmory, Gengar, any non-Swampert Water Mon) - so much so that the core is a fairly common team archetype in ADV, called "Jolteon Spikes," or similar. Jolteon basically functions as a special wall on these otherwise more frail offensive Spikes teams, where it can pivot Thunderbolts and switch into opposing Gengar at least once. It is more prediction reliant than a Blissey of course, but the trade off is that a well played Jolteon Spikes team can maintain offensive pressure on the opponent from start to finish. The combination of Roar + Baton Pass makes Jolteon the ultimate Spikes abuser, and it can even BP out of a full HP Dugtrio, whereas Raikou would be trapped and immediately OHKO'd, unless behind a Substitute.

In addition to the Dugtrio vulnerability, Raikou has zero way to heal itself outside of Rest (a sleeping Raikou is the ultimate Dugtrio bait), and in general suffers from a lack of offensive firepower, ironically enough. You might bring it in against a Suicune and force it out, Calm Minding on the switch, but everything that switches into Raikou can either OHKO it, while you can not in return (Tyranitar, Snorlax, Swampert if HP Ice, even a Metagross can come in after a sac, etc.), or wall it forever (Blissey). These situations are not as straightforward as I am making them out to be, but once you use Raikou over the course of 10 or so games, you will understand what I'm saying. It is a very flawed Pokemon in general. Another small but important fact is that Jolly DD Tar outspeeds it at +1, so Raikou is not even a reliable revenge killer against all DD Tar - or really any but a <40% HP Adamant one, to be honest.

Regarding the last line, Raikou being considered a premier OU threat, this was true many years ago when the metagame looked completely different. Much of the site's ADV resources were written upwards of 10 years ago, so they are not always reliable.

I hope my answer helped you.



Pretty generic question but if I had to give you just one answer I would say Suicune / Skarmory / Gengar / Blissey / Claydol / Dugtrio. It is a rather self explanatory build that aims to sweep around either last Mon CM Cune, or Spikes plus Gengar beforehand.

Alternatively, you can use Skarmory / Blissey / Swampert / Gengar / Tyranitar / Dugtrio. Similar to the team above, but with Sand added to the mix. This version is significantly more Skarmory weak though so beware.



Kind of a tricky question to answer since mixed attacking Venusaur is basically just the bulky special wall set that runs Sludge Bomb / Leech Seed / Grass STAB (I prefer Giga Drain) / Sleep Powder. For this set, you are going to have to use one of a -Att, -SpA, or -Spe nature, so that is up to you to decide. I usually go -Spe but -Att is acceptable too since Sludge Bomb is primarily used for hitting Electrics, who you wall anyway, and other Mons on the switch, like Salamence. 30% chance of Poison is lovely, so the loss of power isn't as noticeable.

Venusaur @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 24 SpA / 176 SpD / 56 Spe
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb

Something like this will probably be fine. You have Grass STAB, so it's quite useful to oustpeed things like Bold Suicune, most Tyranitar, Milotic, etc. Venusaur is massive Skarmory bait though so pair this with either a Magneton, a Spinner, or other heavy anti-Skarmory measures.

If you are wanting an offensive mixed attacking set, then perhaps Sludge Bomb / Grass move / HP Fire / Sleep Powder could do the trick. For this one, I'd go 252+ SpA - necessary if you want HP Fire to actually "damage" Steel types (reminder:
252+ SpA Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 127-150 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery), quite a bit of Speed, and the rest in HP. Maybe something like this:

Venusaur @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Mild Nature
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb

The bulk isn't as important on this set since you are offensive, so the -Def nature doesn't hurt as much.

Hope this helped.
Thanks, this is exactly what I needed!
 
Likes: UD
Pretty generic question but if I had to give you just one answer I would say Suicune / Skarmory / Gengar / Blissey / Claydol / Dugtrio. It is a rather self explanatory build that aims to sweep around either last Mon CM Cune, or Spikes plus Gengar beforehand.

Alternatively, you can use Skarmory / Blissey / Swampert / Gengar / Tyranitar / Dugtrio. Similar to the team above, but with Sand added to the mix. This version is significantly more Skarmory weak though so beware.
What would best lead be for each team? I think it would be Gengar for the first and Tyranitar for the second, but I'm new here and I might be wrong.
 
What would best lead be for each team? I think it would be Gengar for the first and Tyranitar for the second, but I'm new here and I might be wrong.
Gengar lead is typically inadvisable unless running some kind of CM spam / special offense where your aim is to bait the special wall as soon as possible and Explode on it. Suicune is a great lead for this team as it gains the matchup advantage against all of Salamence, Tyranitar, and Metagross, all of whom you'd otherwise rather not switch into turn 1.

Tyranitar is a fine lead on the second team. As is Skarmory and even Swampert to an extent. In fact, I would probably put them in that order.
 

Oglemi

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As someone who has only dabbled in rby, can someone explain the logic behind a lead alakazam? Because to me that's a huge waste of potential for one of the most threatening late game pokemon i've seen in spl through the years, and to just sac it into a sleep move for a first turn twave or a chansey/alaka/starm pp stall just doesn't seem worth it in a long-term meta like rby.
 
So lead Zam has a lot of good matchups, as there are literally no relevant leads that actually beat it. The biggest thing it has going for it is that it's a humongous cockblock to opposing status users, as it can stay in on literally everything with TWave/SSpore except for Bro (and even then, SToss is good enough to force a Rest). That basically only leaves Body Slam as a means of para spreading which is both unreliable and shut down by the omnipresent Normal types. Sleep is a bit tougher because it can't threaten physical attackers that switch in, but it has a decent shot at waking up on all of the regular sleep inducers, especially since they'll probably cop a paralysis in the process of sleeping Zam. Physical attackers can be covered with smart double switches, while sleeping Zam is the biggest buzzkill for an Egg looking to Explode. Also Zam's a great status spreader itself, as Psychic spc drops force a lot of switches.

Late game Zam is a beast, but I think it's not used as often due to reliability and its inability to fill other roles. Regarding reliability, the issue is that lategame tends to see a lot of physical attackers, particularly using Body Slam, which means that for something as physically frail as Zam, a single turn of hax can prove deadly. Meanwhile it's restricted in its role because it can't revenge kill like Tauros due to a single Psychic being easily absorbed by Chansey and other Psychics, while it can't really wall/break anything because doing so usually involves receiving paralysis, which massively gimps its sweeping potential, and can easily become a liability if your opponent can switch in Lax without taking significant damage
 
Keeping team members alive is an important part of playing stall, right? So in the past few years I've gotten used to playing "hard stall", where I would switch in a wall to an attack and then immediately heal off the damage with a 1/2 recovery move. I just started learning how to play Generation 3. I decided to first try using DracoMalfoy's stall sample team, and the first thing I noticed was that only two of the Pokemon have an actual healing move. When I tried using that team, those other four Pokemon would always get worn down from switching into too many attacks, and then I can't switch them into attacks anymore. So with a team like DracoMalfoy's OU stall team, how am I supposed to keep my team members alive if they can't heal themselves?
 

Oglemi

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Keeping team members alive is an important part of playing stall, right? So in the past few years I've gotten used to playing "hard stall", where I would switch in a wall to an attack and then immediately heal off the damage with a 1/2 recovery move. I just started learning how to play Generation 3. I decided to first try using DracoMalfoy's stall sample team, and the first thing I noticed was that only two of the Pokemon have an actual healing move. When I tried using that team, those other four Pokemon would always get worn down from switching into too many attacks, and then I can't switch them into attacks anymore. So with a team like DracoMalfoy's OU stall team, how am I supposed to keep my team members alive if they can't heal themselves?
Playing stall isn't simply outliving your opp by spamming toxic and heal moves, you still need to formulate a gameplan to take out members of your opponent's team and win the match. I'm not familiar with the team you're referencing, but let's say it's a little weak to cb spam. You're not going to be able to constantly switch skarm into metagross and ttar without eventually getting donked. You need to find a way to get skarm in on a double so you get that lefties recovery and scout their next move with protect, or find a way to lure them in and trap them with duggy on a double. Just because you're playing stall doesn't mean you have to play passive. Playing stall typically means you have a way to outlast your opp and play an extended game, not that you're going to win simply by not dying (this is even true for gsc heavy stall).
 
Playing stall isn't simply outliving your opp by spamming toxic and heal moves, you still need to formulate a gameplan to take out members of your opponent's team and win the match. I'm not familiar with the team you're referencing, but let's say it's a little weak to cb spam. You're not going to be able to constantly switch skarm into metagross and ttar without eventually getting donked. You need to find a way to get skarm in on a double so you get that lefties recovery and scout their next move with protect, or find a way to lure them in and trap them with duggy on a double. Just because you're playing stall doesn't mean you have to play passive. Playing stall typically means you have a way to outlast your opp and play an extended game, not that you're going to win simply by not dying (this is even true for gsc heavy stall).
I think you're saying that I need to try to predict switches, and when I do think the opponent will switch, I need to switch in a check. And that I shouldn't keep Pokemon in for too long if their only way to heal is leftovers. Is there anything important that I'm still missing?

Slightly related question: Is rest Zapdos good on stall teams in RSE OU? If so, then what would be a good stalling moveset for it? This is what I'm thinking.
Zapdos @ leftovers
Ability: pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm nature
- thunderbolt
- hidden power [grass]
- toxic
- rest
 
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Oglemi

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I think you're saying that I need to try to predict switches, and when I do think the opponent will switch, I need to switch in a check. And that I shouldn't keep Pokemon in for too long if their only way to heal is leftovers. Is there anything important that I'm still missing?

Slightly related question: Is rest Zapdos good on stall teams in RSE OU? If so, then what would be a good stalling moveset for it? This is what I'm thinking.
Zapdos @ leftovers
Ability: pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm nature
- thunderbolt
- hidden power [grass]
- toxic
- rest
I'm saying you need to think longterm, especially if you're playing stall. You can't just play to your opponent and react to what they throw at you. Using stall gives you an inherent advantage to scout and make a couple reactionary switches, but you can't let your opponent determine the direction of the match the game.
 
I'm saying you need to think longterm, especially if you're playing stall. You can't just play to your opponent and react to what they throw at you. Using stall gives you an inherent advantage to scout and make a couple reactionary switches, but you can't let your opponent determine the direction of the match the game.
How do I "think longterm" if there's no team preview and I don't know what my opponents will use?
 

Oglemi

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From executing your team's win goal and developing a win condition as the game progresses. Every team in every gen has a win goal, for adv the most poignant ones to me are a dd tar or cb aero sweep. In order for dd tar to sweep for example, you know for sure you need to remove your opp's bulky water, whether that be pert, milo, or cune you won't know ahead of time until they reveal it, but going into the match you know they're going to have one of those 99% of the time because it's adv and you need to play in a way that they reveal which one they have, and you need to develop a plan as to how to take them out, whether that be through luring them in with an hp grass lure or through sufficiently chipping them or outright koing them with a good explosion or something.

Kinda hard to teach you the game over super simplified answers though, I would recommend signing up for tutoring or something
 
How do I "think longterm" if there's no team preview and I don't know what my opponents will use?
Oglemi hit it mostly on the head, but I will also add that you can think/make "long term" predictions by learning the tier through playing and watching high-level matches. You'll learn typical team compositions (i.e. the bulky water part that Oglemi mentioned), common leads and the overall lead matchup, and how to identify/setup your wincon for a match. I would agree with Oglemi that tutoring could be helpful if you still want/need further help
 

Jirachee

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Back on the subject of Raikou/Jolteon in ADV, is HP Grass generally preferred over HP Ice?
Both are great, imo. It depends on how your team is built, really. Generally I think Jolteon is better off rocking HP Ice; it's best used on Spikes abuse teams, and since Flygon is immune to Spikes, you'll want to be able to knock it out easily. Pert normally is easy layers for Skarmory so whenever it tries to switch into Jolt you get an opportunity to turn up the heat on your opponent. Canning Salamence is also pretty sweet in late game scenarios which Jolt usually excels in.

I think HP Grass is better on Raikou though, because Raik is a better fit for CM Spam or Dug bait teams that usually have a hard time fitting a Spiker. Pert can be really, really tough to kill for that kind of team because it's so damn bulky.

The main difference between HP Grass and HP Ice is Flygon / Swampert coverage, so obviously the way your team plays around these two should dictate which coverage you choose.
 

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Before I potentially waste devs' time with a "bug" report:

Doesn't Haze in RBY clear non-volatile status conditions? As in freeze, paralysis, burn, etc.? (Or did Crystal_ somehow ruin that too?)

And if it does, is Showdown using a ruleset (i.e., cart mechanics) that would result in the use of Haze following those rules?

Basically should this game have featured a Vaporeon un-paralyzing itself according to the ruleset Showdown uses?
 
Before I potentially waste devs' time with a "bug" report:

Doesn't Haze in RBY clear non-volatile status conditions? As in freeze, paralysis, burn, etc.? (Or did Crystal_ somehow ruin that too?)

And if it does, is Showdown using a ruleset (i.e., cart mechanics) that would result in the use of Haze following those rules?

Basically should this game have featured a Vaporeon un-paralyzing itself according to the ruleset Showdown uses?
It only clears the non-volatile condition of your opponent's pokémon.
 
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