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Pokémon Avalugg
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Avalugg is going to be NU / RU / MAYBE UU. No way a spinner that is weak to all hazards and that can not set themself up himself will ever make OU. Let's be realistic. It has titanic defense, Rapid Spin, and Recover but that's pretty much where the high points end.
- Bad typing means it takes super effective damage from basically everything
- Crap movepool. Rapid Spin + Recover is about all it gets. It has to rely on Avalanche for a STAB move? No, that's bad.
- 2x SR weak. Screwed by poison and Spike damage.
- No hazards of its own means the only thing it can do besides spin is Roar.
- Cryogonal has better speed and somehow even a better movepool and it never even got close to UU.
Also Mega Gengar fucks this thing to death.
- Bad typing means it takes super effective damage from basically everything
- Crap movepool. Rapid Spin + Recover is about all it gets. It has to rely on Avalanche for a STAB move? No, that's bad.
- 2x SR weak. Screwed by poison and Spike damage.
- No hazards of its own means the only thing it can do besides spin is Roar.
- Cryogonal has better speed and somehow even a better movepool and it never even got close to UU.
Also Mega Gengar fucks this thing to death.
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I know you're not confident in Avalugg's abilities, but cmon man, stop exaggerating: that movepool is perfectly fine. Rapid Spin + Recover by itself is amazing, and it has great offensive coverage between Avalanche + Earthquake. Avalanche isn't amazing but it'd be better than Icicle Crash anyways -- the only other good physical Ice moves besides Ice Shard. In fact, the only move I would want Avalugg to learn at this point is Ice Shard (which is still a possibility), and that probably wouldn't see much use anyways because you want to use Rapid Spin / Recover / Strong STAB / Earthquake.
Regarding the Cryogonal comparison, you have to realize Avalugg's has much better physical bulk than Cryogonal has special bulk, quite a bit more Attack compared to Cryogonal's Special Attack, and has a less vulnerable weak side. Also, Avalugg has better coverage than Cryogonal, as the only coverage move Cryogonal has is a (nerfed too) Hidden Power. Sure you miss out on Levitate and the Speed, but overall I'd say Avalugg is "better" than Cryogonal.
If you're gonna criticize Avalugg for something, the only fair thing to say really is that it has a shitty defensive typing (especially for spinning), which is of course a very fair criticism.
You can argue about my points if you'd like, but is there any disagreement that Avalugg is terrible? It's a really cool poke with interesting attributes but people here seem to be blowing them out of proportion. Basically the only thing it has going for it that we know of is Rapid Spin + Recover + impressive sheer physical bulk. Its movepool is decent at best and typing is garbage. Not to mention Mega Gengar or "coverage Fire move" meant for Skarm, Scizor or Ferro or whatever hits this thing too.
That said we still don't know what this things entire movepool consists of. Perhaps it will end up with Spikes or even some new un-discovered move that will change everything. Scoliopede apparently has 4 abilities so maybe Avalugg will get Regenerator or something. As of what we know however, Avalugg has far too many flaws to be viable in the higher tiers.
It's not OU at all, that much is sure. HOWEVER, I can see a niche in UU, RU at the lowest. He's not amazing, but he's better than a lot of other stuff. He's about the middle of the line for Rapid Spinners (far outclassing Torkoal and Delibird, above Cryogonal,but around Eviolite Wartortle, and below Blastoise and the OU crowd)
Nobody is arguing that Avalugg will be OU, so let's not derail the thread to such a discussion. As i have already stated in the OP i think that Avalugg will be have a small niche in OU and this is what i would like to see discussed. Some questions to answer:
- In which cases would your team prefer Avalugg over other spinners and why?
- Which common Stealth Rock users does Avalugg prevent from keeping SR up? Are those SR users commonly paired with spinblcokers that Avalugg can't spin against?
- Should Avalugg use a fully defensive set or maybe attempt to deal as much damage as possible to spinblockers?
- In which cases would your team prefer Avalugg over other spinners and why?
- Which common Stealth Rock users does Avalugg prevent from keeping SR up? Are those SR users commonly paired with spinblcokers that Avalugg can't spin against?
- Should Avalugg use a fully defensive set or maybe attempt to deal as much damage as possible to spinblockers?
God that Pokemon is so funky-looking. It's like he was supposed to have something on the top but it was shaved off, like an icy Torterra.
I'd like to think he has some good potential with moves like Curse, Recover, and Rapid Spin, but with that single ice typing he's going to face a lot of threats like fire and ice types that are common in the higher tiers of gameplay. But that wouldn't rule him out entirely, just look at that utility! The SpD and Speed have something less to be desired though, still. I saw a post about someone asking about raising the SpD of Avalugg, did we get any confirmation on that yet?
I'd like to think he has some good potential with moves like Curse, Recover, and Rapid Spin, but with that single ice typing he's going to face a lot of threats like fire and ice types that are common in the higher tiers of gameplay. But that wouldn't rule him out entirely, just look at that utility! The SpD and Speed have something less to be desired though, still. I saw a post about someone asking about raising the SpD of Avalugg, did we get any confirmation on that yet?
Something curious to note: According to its supposed base stats, Avalugg's about 1.32% physically bulkier than Regirock (202122 vs 199472), assuming a 252/252+/4 spread for both, while 14.03% frailer against special attacks (75648 vs 86268)
Granted, its typing is even worse but you can get an idea on how this thing can take physical attacks, and then there's the fact Avalugg can actually support its team
Granted, its typing is even worse but you can get an idea on how this thing can take physical attacks, and then there's the fact Avalugg can actually support its team
Let me explain why I am so hyped about this Pokemon: it all has to do with Rapid Spin.
Pretty much last generation the viable rapid spinners where:
-Forretress
-Tentacruel
-Starmie
And that is really it, one can make a case for Hitmontop, Donphan, or heck even Blastoise, but in reality, these are the Rapid Spinners that are available, 3 of them. Even among these 3 there are limitations, Tentacruel for example is poo outside of the rain, that isn't just be theorymoning, trust me I attempted to use it for months.
Any option here in rapid spinners this generation was something I looked forward to, and look at that, a physical defensive monster with good recovery, yeah I think its prenty viable, if only in a niche way.
Pretty much last generation the viable rapid spinners where:
-Forretress
-Tentacruel
-Starmie
And that is really it, one can make a case for Hitmontop, Donphan, or heck even Blastoise, but in reality, these are the Rapid Spinners that are available, 3 of them. Even among these 3 there are limitations, Tentacruel for example is poo outside of the rain, that isn't just be theorymoning, trust me I attempted to use it for months.
Any option here in rapid spinners this generation was something I looked forward to, and look at that, a physical defensive monster with good recovery, yeah I think its prenty viable, if only in a niche way.
Well, you also have to include Excadrill in your calculations, because he's back and only slightly less good than he was before. Now, though, we have someone fighting Donphan in the "physically defensive strong attack stat RSer" spot, and the comparisons are flattering both ways.
So this is confirmed? Nooooooooooooo! Fairy Blissey would have been too good anyway. :/
Avalugg seems genuinely promising in the lower tiers :) Being that slow with a Fighting weakness just isn't good for it though, Focus Blast is omnipresent and so are Fire attacks (and they are almost all special) so...
You're forgetting the Ice type's Steel weakness, which will be even more popular due to the fairies running around. I know, minor nitpick, but it IS something to consider. Especially with Scizor, Jirachi, Magnezone, Ferrothorn and Aegislash. Aegislash spinblocks, has the defenses to eat a Crunch, AND King's Shield to dissuade Avalugg from spamming Crunch.
On a different note, I don't think that having RS + Recover will make that much of a difference when the time comes to pick a spinner for the team. Avalugg almost seems like an Ice typed Torkoal, minus SS but plus Recover, a worse defensive typing, and dealing with Avalanche/Crunch for some form of offense. It possibly outclasses Donphan, but that's not exactly an unheard of thing. I can make this prediction: It'll be next to unusable in OU, possibly even UU as well. It's just too flawed in stats (that Sp. Def and Spd), movepool (RS + Recover is pretty overrated imo), and typing (Fire/Rock/Steel/Fighting weak) to make much of a splash. The cons FAR outweigh the pros here, so I think Avalugg will only make a difference in the lower tiers.
All I know is, Avalugg's gonna be AMAZING in Inverse Battle if that's brought over.
That bulk, one weakness that becomes rare when so many things suddenly resist Ice, plenty of resists of its own. Mmm.
That bulk, one weakness that becomes rare when so many things suddenly resist Ice, plenty of resists of its own. Mmm.
At first glance, there's Rapid Spin on a Pokemon with the physical bulk of titans plus Sturdy and Recover as failsafes. But in classic "corrupt a wish" fashion, it has the literal worst defensive typing in the game and susceptible to every type of hazard. Mega Gengar also single-handedly invalidates this thing's chances at OU. I'd rather use Forretress or Tentacruel for a defensive spinner, Starmie if offensive pressure is needed.
It doesn't. It's already been tested.
1. Not guaranteed: 4 Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 200-236 (76.33 - 90.07%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
2. Why would it be unreasonable to assume that it will still be in its Levitate state because logically, as a spin block trapper, you hold off on sending it out until you are sure you can trap and kill the enemy spinner? In most cases, you would switch in Gengar when you predict the Rapid Spin, not the EQ. If Gengar switches in on anything that isn't EQ, Avalugg is dead meat. Sturdy is invalidated by the entry hazards you sent it in to spin in the first place.
Rock is also weak to steel, lol.
I'd be surprised if this plug ends up in RU, seems like NU would be more comfortable to it. Avalugg does feel like a physical Cryogonal, except the latter has Levitate and a dashing speed to its advantage while the former has Sturdy and a pace slower than Slowbro. So being weak to SR and suspectible to all the other hazards, there are bound to be better alternatives available, but since NU only have Torkoal, Wartortle and Armaldo as spinning options (and LC mons, but really now), this wandering ice cap should be able to make a name for itself. Compared to the other spinners, it has at least Recover as a small boon to its movepool, and Crunch to hit Ghosts hard on the switch, along with its stellar defense stat to tank even SE physical strikes.
I can see Gyro Ball working well on it too, but since Avalanche / Crunch / Rapid Spin / Recover are required for STAB, Ghost coverage, hazard management and bulk, it'll be really easy to predict what set this dude runs. A real pity it didn't get Refrigerate as ability, an ice typed Rapin Spin would have been so cool.
I can see Gyro Ball working well on it too, but since Avalanche / Crunch / Rapid Spin / Recover are required for STAB, Ghost coverage, hazard management and bulk, it'll be really easy to predict what set this dude runs. A real pity it didn't get Refrigerate as ability, an ice typed Rapin Spin would have been so cool.
That's not the consensus at all; I don't think I read a single post in this thread suggesting that. I would absolutely run Donphan over this thing because at least it has salvageable typing and it has an extraneous use beyond spinning as it can set up rocks. A good spinner has extraneous use beyond spinning (and I'm going to list non-OU mons because RS has such sparse distribution); some offer additional utility (Forretress, Blastoise, Tentacruel), others provide offensive pressure to keep spinblockers and more at bay (Starmie, Excadrill, Hitmontop). I'm not really sure what Avalugg's purpose in life is other than spinning. It can't set up anything, there are few Pokemon it threatens, and it keels over to special attacker with move. The simple fact of being weak to rocks means that it doesn't spin better than Donphan.
I'm just trying not to oversell it. If it does end up in OU where it can perform well, then that'd be great for it, but I'm not seeing it right now. While Agalugg have better defensive stats than Donphan, you seem to forget that the latters weakness are generally of the special kind (Water, Grass, Ice), while it's the complete opposite in Agalugg's case (Fighting, Rock, Steel), thus rendering its fantastic defense less reliable. And as AoK said above, being able to set up hazards yourself and not being weak to SR are two big advantages to Donphan, so there's that (also find it somehwat humorous that Donphan has Ice Shard while Avalugg may not :V).
I admit that it was wrong of me to assume what tier it'd end up in, but I won't be surprised if it ends up in the lower regions where it can perform better.
If Gengar comes in on its normal forme to spinblock Avalugg, then Avalugg can just switch out (MEvolving the turn the opponent chooses to switch out doesn't prevent him from switching out). If Gengar is in its Mega Forme then Avalugg can OHKO with Earthquake (with a bit of Attack investment). So no matter what, Avalugg isn't hopeless against Gengar.
No, but how could you ever really be sure that you wouldn't get EQ after mega-evolving? I mean, you think you're sure the spin is coming, but the user could be thinking hes sure the switch-in is coming. Just saying that, with the possibility of it happening, you could never be completely safe in the knowledge that what you think will happen will in fact happen.
His typing can be that bad can it? I've isn't to bad defensively. It's got fighting,rock,fire,and steel. Now those might be common types in OU (I wouldn't know) but avalanche is pretty powerful after the attack boost. Especially when you use curse. And as for mega gengar. What's the move that's being refrenced that would crush avalugg? Wouldn't avalugg using crunch block it?
any move:
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 588-694 (149.23 - 176.14%)
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 331-391 (84.01 - 99.23%)
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 295-348 (74.87 - 88.32%)
no
4 Atk Avalugg Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 158-188 (60.3 - 71.75%)
Mega-Gengar (or even the normal one) can switch in relatively safely and KO with the tiniest bit of prior damage unless you are heavily investing in attack... which kind defeats the purpose of it
252+ Atk Avalugg Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 214-254 (81.67 - 96.94%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
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