Averagemons

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
Critdra really appreciates everything having the same amount of bulk. Draco, Hydro, Flash Cannon gets a OHKO on almost everything here. Haven't went up against one Azu or Mega-Bro. Edit in replays in a bit.


(Edit)
Replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/averagemons-237716338
Featuring a no-encore Whimsi which could have easily kept Critdra from cleaning up.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/averagemons-237725894

(Double edit)
With only one turn of set-up to land guaranteed critical hits which completely ignore stat alterations with every blow, BP 130 and BP 110 Stabs coupled with excellent coverage in flash cannon, and good typing+bulk combined. This thing just might be OP in Averagemons.
 
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Why is chatot not banned?
I was just about to bring this up myself actually - though I'd say Chatter would be a more logical ban than Chatot itself.

Excluding the fact that Chatot gets STAB Boomburst + Nasty Plot which is simply god damn amazing for Averagemons alone, Chatter continues to be the most complete horseshit move ever since Sheer Cold and friends. Sure its ability is useless as fuck, but it doesn't really need it to cause ragequits.



DICKS (Chatot) @ Leftovers
Ability: Tangled Feet
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Boomburst
- Chatter

This set can just hax by almost any team by abusing Chatter + Substitute, and the raw power of Boomburst. The EV spread was just quickly made - it's probably beneficial to remove some SpA and put it into bulk since Boomburst is strong enough anyway. For reference, here are some calcs:
Neutral 'mon
+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Neutral Mon: 381-448 (111.7 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Neutral Mon: 381-448 (94.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Neutral Mon: 274-324 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Rock or Steel 'mon
+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Resist: 190-224 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Resist: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Resist: 137-162 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Ghost
+2 252 SpA Chatot Chatter vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ghost: 178-210 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ghost: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ghost: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO

Unaware
252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware: 190-225 (47 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware: 138-163 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- 42% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mighty powerful, but normally these would be pretty fair calcs and nothing to cry for a ban over. However, when your "counter" is hitting itself in confusion there's really not much you can do to stop that kind of damage. Unless you're using max special defence AV Corsola, Regular Rotom, Honedge, Aggron, or a Soundproof mon - most of which are pretty bad otherwise - this thing will be doing horrific damage to your team with only a few lucky confusion rolls.

tl;dr ban chatter
 
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I was just about to bring this up myself actually - though I'd say Chatter would be a more logical ban than Chatot itself.

Excluding the fact that Chatot gets STAB Boomburst + Nasty Plot which is simply god damn amazing for Averagemons alone, Chatter continues to be the most complete horseshit move ever since Sheer Cold and friends. Sure its ability is useless as fuck, but it doesn't really need it to cause ragequits.



DICKS (Chatot) @ Leftovers
Ability: Tangled Feet
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Boomburst
- Chatter

This set can just hax by almost any team by abusing Chatter + Substitute, and the raw power of Boomburst. The EV spread was just quickly made - it's probably beneficial to remove some SpA and put it into bulk since Boomburst is strong enough anyway. For reference, here are some calcs:
Neutral 'mon
+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Neutral Mon: 381-448 (111.7 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Neutral Mon: 381-448 (94.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Neutral Mon: 274-324 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Rock or Steel 'mon
+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Resist: 190-224 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Resist: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Resist: 137-162 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Ghost
+2 252 SpA Chatot Chatter vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ghost: 178-210 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ghost: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ghost: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO

Unaware
252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware: 190-225 (47 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware: 138-163 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- 42% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mighty powerful, but normally these would be pretty fair calcs and nothing to cry for a ban over. However, when your "counter" is hitting itself in confusion there's really not much you can do to stop that kind of damage. Unless you're using max special defence AV Corsola, Regular Rotom, Honedge, Aggron, or a Soundproof mon - most of which are pretty bad otherwise - this thing will be doing horrific damage to your team with only a few lucky confusion rolls.

tl;dr ban chatter
Honedge doesn't counter if the oppoenent has heat wave. Furthermore offence pretty much loses to this unless you have a fast ice/elec mon, which it can switch out versus, and can't necessaily switch in one.
Also what does tl'dr mean?
 
Too long didn't read

Also where's the link to all the speed tiers in this meta? I saw one and have since forgotten where it was. It had useful stuff like how much a scarcer needed to run to outpace everything unboosted, creeping on walls, etc
 
Too long didn't read

Also where's the link to all the speed tiers in this meta? I saw one and have since forgotten where it was. It had useful stuff like how much a scarcer needed to run to outpace everything unboosted, creeping on walls, etc
...can't tell if joking or...
 
No, there really was one

It said something like running 44 speed as optimal creep
are you referring to this?

Speed - Very Important Stuff
Speed is weird in this metagame, considering the fact that everything has the same base speed of 100. You would think that this means that all spreads should either have 252+ Speed or no/4 speed (outside of speed creep), but this isn't always true. This mainly applies to Pokemon that can boost their speed, including Pokemon that set-up (Dragon Dancers are an example of this), Pokemon that have abilities that boost their speed (Speed Boosters and Unburden), or simply Pokemon with a Choice Scarf move. So here's some odd Speed EVs that you can use. A general rule I think is that 44 Speed EVs is all you really need if you have a way to boost your speed outside of Choice Scarf. At 44 Speed EVs, you outspeed anything that doesn't run speed and speed creepers (unless they're doing some extreme speed creeping). At +1 you outpace everything that run max speed, and at +2 you outpace everything at +1, which includes Choice Scarfers. This also means that you can run a bulky choice scarf set with 44 Speed EVs if you so desire. 44 Speed also lets you run a Modest or Adamant nature, making your pokemon stronger than the others in comparison. So the main speed tiers you need to keep in minds are (in order of fastest to slowest). Note that this doesn't include speed creeping. (I'll calc -1 speeds later)
  • +2 44 EVs
  • +1 252+ EVs (Choice Scarfer)
  • +1 44 EVs
  • 252+ EVs
  • 252 EVs
  • 44 EVs
  • 0-4 EVs
Speed Creeping - Why it's so important
Speed Creeping is the act of tossing a few Speed EVs on a Pokemon that would normally run at most 4 speed EVs. This is prominant in bulky attackers and walls that wish to be faster. Speed Creeping is a way to avoid Speed Ties most of the time, and it is rather useful. However, make sure you don't invest too much into your speed - you still want that bulk. 8-12 speed EVs seems like it is the best to use. Note that max speed pokemon cannot be sped crept or speed creep, as they hit their maximum speed.
Being Slower
While speed is very important, sometimes you want to be slower. An important example of this is Analytic Pokemon. These Pokemon want to go last so they can get their x1.3 boost. Fortunately, it's pretty easy to be slower than everything because everyone has the same speed. Simple set your Speed to 0 EVs / 0 IVs and a - Speed nature and you should be slower than everything bar other pokemon that are doing the same. Another example of pokemon that would want this is Volt-Switchers and U-Turners so they can get momentum. Sleepers might also want to be slower so that they can get as many sleep turns as possible.

Speed Drops

It is important to note that, if you are at -1 speed, and your opponent is at neutral speed, unless you are scarfed, or your opponent is running a -speed nature and 0 Speed IVs, they will always outspeed you. A base 100 Pokemon with 252 EVs and a positive nature reaches 328 speed, which becomes 218 at -1 (328x2/3 = 218.666667, which rounds down to 218). A base 100 Pokemon with a neutral nature and 0 EVs hits 236 speed. -1 Speed effectively cancels out Choice Scarf, so if you are scarfed at -1 speed, whoever has more speed investment will move first.

this was in the ppad written by myself + ~15 other ppl in late 2013 - early 2014, i dont know who wrote this specifically.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
From my experience, people run way more than 44 creep. I know I run more than that, and I still get outsped :P
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
From my experience, people run way more than 44 creep. I know I run more than that, and I still get outsped :P
Actually I run max speed with positive nature on stuff that really appreciates it. Like sweepers, status abusers, and quick pivots. If I used a wall breaker I'd use an attack positive nature to give it an edge, but gotta go fast. Speed is really important here from my experience.
 
What are some defensive Pokemon that can beat the Nidos? I'm using a stall team and no matter how I change the team, I always get destroyed by them. They have such insane coverage, anything that I choose is weak to one of its moves. Any suggestions?
 
What are some defensive Pokemon that can beat the Nidos? I'm using a stall team and no matter how I change the team, I always get destroyed by them. They have such insane coverage, anything that I choose is weak to one of its moves. Any suggestions?
quagsire.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force ground type Mew Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Mew: 169-200 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
I've theorymonned that one a lot and the best counter I've found for the Nidos is actually Mismagius / Misdreavus:

Misdreavus @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 236 HP / 252 SpD / 20 Spe [Just FWI don't run just 20 speed, it's way too low]
Calm Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Shadow Ball

Misdreavus is immune to ground and resists poison, and it takes very little damage from the other coverage moves.
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 236 HP / 252+ SpD Misdreavus: 164-194 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Because venopass is pretty common *cough cough*)

Shame it doesn't have reliable recovery though. I guess you could do the same thing with the Gastly line, although I'm not sure how much good poison typing does you.

EDIT: Actually, Gastly learns Knock Off, which allows you to take off the Life Orb, which probably makes it a better pokemon to use than Misdreavus for this situation.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
\

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mew Shadow Ball vs. 236 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 195-231 (48.7 - 57.7%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Eh
What about Weezing then? It can run Taunt / Willo / Pain Split / Knock Off too.
 
A really underrated mon that counters the nidos is solrock:

Solrock @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge

thanks to levitate, solrock can take any move that the nidos can throw at it, and it has recovery in morning sun and utility with stealth rock and will-o-wisp. Solrock also counters exploud and talonflame (watch out for cb u-turn tho), and it walls primal don sans solarbeam, but it cant do much back. you could consider running eq over stone edge to hit groudon and the nidos harder, but then talonflame can set up on you, so its not worth the tradeoff imo.
 
Is there a viability ranking for this somewhere? If not, maybe someone could start making one, it makes it a lot more easier for starters. ;)
 
A really underrated mon that counters the nidos is solrock:

Solrock @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge

thanks to levitate, solrock can take any move that the nidos can throw at it, and it has recovery in morning sun and utility with stealth rock and will-o-wisp. Solrock also counters exploud and talonflame (watch out for cb u-turn tho), and it walls primal don sans solarbeam, but it cant do much back. you could consider running eq over stone edge to hit groudon and the nidos harder, but then talonflame can set up on you, so its not worth the tradeoff imo.
Bruh...
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mew Shadow Ball vs. 236 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 195-231 (48.7 - 57.7%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Eh
 
Gonna post some good sets I've been using:

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Kyogre is an amazing early game wallbreaker and a late game cleaner with its powerful rain boosted water spouts. It can pressure pokemon with no defensive investment right of the bat with an OHKO:
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 337-397 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
It is great at wallbreaking even with a scarf and if you manage to predict right then it can also nail potential water, grass or dragon would be counters with a thunder or an ice beam. Held back somewhat by the presence of primal groudon and common regenerators such as tangrowth, amoonguss and corsola, but other than that it is great at smashing holes it more offensive teams while still being able to sweep.


Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / *Speed Creep* (Not telling you my spreads :D)
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Facade
- Roost

I think kit already mentioned this set but it has been the MVP for me. This thing sweeps so many teams as long as they don't have an unaware user. It is also an excellent switch in to primal groudon, as long as the toxic orb has been activated anyway. :P Bulky sweepers are great in averagemons, especially ones like gliscor with very few weaknesses. It basically takes a STAB water or ice attack to bring down this thing once it gets going: it can even tank non stab ice beams:
252 SpA Mew Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 236-280 (58.7 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal


Kecleon @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Nasty Plot

This thing is such a beast! Thanks to protean, it has the power to sweep more defensive teams with ease after a nasty plot, and it can even break through unaware users without spdef investment:
252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Kecleon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 214-253 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Definitely an underrated threat and needs to be used more. It can also go physical or mixed, including grass knot, knock off, aqua tail, drain punch, sucker punch, double-edge and power-up-punch.
 
Bruh...
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mew Shadow Ball vs. 236 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 195-231 (48.7 - 57.7%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Eh
This is true, but Shadow Ball is very uncommon move on the nidos in my experience, and outside of hitting Solrock and Mismagius it doesn't really do anything.
 
This is true, but Shadow Ball is very uncommon move on the nidos in my experience, and outside of hitting Solrock and Mismagius it doesn't really do anything.
I know, I was just saying I literally just posted a calc to the opposite of what you said, but hey shadowball is nice spammable coverage imo, I wouldn't run it, but then again I wouldn't run nidos either.
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
What are some defensive Pokemon that can beat the Nidos? I'm using a stall team and no matter how I change the team, I always get destroyed by them. They have such insane coverage, anything that I choose is weak to one of its moves. Any suggestions?
Due to an amazing ability combined with an amazing move pool there is no definitive counter. With a simple alteration of move set, a would be counter is cleanly 2HKO. Gengar walls sludge bomb and earth power until it gets smacked with shadow ball. Same thing for other ghosts and also psychic types. Grounds get ate alive by ice beam. Skarm gets destroyed by TBolt and Flamethrower. One simply does not wall the Nidos in Averagemons. Best way to deal with them is to scarf something like Jirachi, Kyogre, or Excadrill and call it a day.

Unless you want to use something obscure that lacks offensive presence like SpD sableye.
 
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Due to an amazing ability combined with an amazing move pool there is no definitive counter. With a simple alteration of move set, a would be counter is cleanly 2HKO. Gengar walls sludge bomb and earth power until it gets smacked with shadow ball. Same thing for other ghosts and also psychic types. Grounds get ate alive by ice beam. Skarm gets destroyed by TBolt and Flamethrower. One simply does not wall the Nidos in Averagemons. Best way to deal with them is to scarf something like Jirachi, Kyogre, or Excadrill and call it a day.

Unless you want to use something obscure that lacks offensive presence like SpD sableye.
Or you could use SpD quag.
 


252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 107-126 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Mienshao gets Knock Off, which threatens Nidoking with the removal of its Life Orb, meaning it becomes neutered if it stays in and goes for Sludge Wave again. It also resists Stealth Rock, meaning it isn't prone to being worn down. Probably the best Nidoking counter you'll get, as there are no strange coverage moves that hit it specifically.
 

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