BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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Hi class, welcome to the lesson of the day. Now if you've been following this thread for a bit of time you should have gained some basis of what constitutes a good argument. So let's put that into practice.
Also, I disagree with the aforementioned Pogre ban as it is one of the top ways to keep Primal Groudon, one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the meta with nearly infinite viable sets, in check.
Please tell me what's bad about this post in 3 lines or less.
 
Hi class, welcome to the lesson of the day. Now if you've been following this thread for a bit of time you should have gained some basis of what constitutes a good argument. So let's put that into practice.
Please tell me what's bad about this post in 3 lines or less.

There's a thing called Desolate Land which completely nullifies any water attacks unless the user of Primal Kyogre is retarded enough to run Air Lock and Choice Specs Water Shuriken. Also Pdon can run Galvanize set invented by UselessCrab who would like to be regarded as an esteemed person who invented imposter-proof set with Earth Plate Judgment, Boomburst, Extreme Speed, and Shell Smash. Tinted Lens Groudon can easily remove Pogre with V-Create, and overall, the post above does not explain how is Pdon a 'very dangerous threat' and also Pogre can't switch into Pdon without Fur Coat.
 
Hi class, welcome to the lesson of the day. Now if you've been following this thread for a bit of time you should have gained some basis of what constitutes a good argument. So let's put that into practice.
Please tell me what's bad about this post in 3 lines or less.
maybe kyogre represents alpha power without which you wont be able to make such comments any more?
btw i d like to see some replays of kyogre doing work vs stall which everyone eventually will use in their arguments but i have 0 knowledge of
 
Hi class, welcome to the lesson of the day. Now if you've been following this thread for a bit of time you should have gained some basis of what constitutes a good argument. So let's put that into practice.
Please tell me what's bad about this post in 3 lines or less.
so...broken doesn't check broken. if you are going to bring up an argument of a suspect into a discussion, NEVER bring this up. it is a pointless thing to mention. trying to convince us to keep something potentially broken from being suspected due to it helping stop something else from being broken, is like saying "i want the meta in a broken stalemate". its one thing to say "i think the meta is fine the way it is", but when you actively accept that something is broken, but decide you DONT want to fix it for whatever reason, its just like...whats the point of having suspects if we have that mentality. we want a balanced metagame. a vast majority do, and a large few seem to think its an issue that needs to be looked at.

now, i get if you were talking about BANS, and that you will be voting no ban because it checks groudon makes slightly more sense...but even then thats still bad for a similar reason. if something is broken, we need to fix it. we cant just...pretend its not there, or the issue will remain. of course, it will probably lead to many more bans, but better to have bans to attempt to balance the metagame, then pretend its an okay meta, when some people clearly disagree. dont forget, your opinion is yours, and theirs are theirs, they see kyogre as a threat. so clearly theres an issue with kyogre. even if its not in your eyes.

having said this, im not stating my opinions on primal ogre at all, i don't support nor oppose the suspect. and i'm merely pointing out the issues this post brought, as motherlove asked. i figured the whole "broken checks broken" speech means nothing without a at least attempted description on why it doesnt work. im not trying to "Dumb this down" because i think you guys are stupid, im just trying to get the reasoning out, because i dont think its ever really been described to anyone. and they probably see it as a "smogon rule" rather then a "logical approach". so sorry if i offend anyone or anything. its not my intention.
 
I think what Durza's argument here is that pogre should not be banned. I personally disagree with this, but he is entitled to his own opinion and I don't think we should say his post is bad just because we think his opinion is wrong. (I have no idea if this is what u were trying to get at motherlove but this is just how I see it)
 
Guys, there is an entire separate shiny thread to debate on what should be banned and what shouldn't so don't clutter the ladder thread with it if you can.

As for Gengarite, I am in general neutral about it and I can see points for and against it on either side. I am considering opening a suspect poll on it if there is enough interest. I'd like to point out that disallowing Shadow Tag while keeping Gengarite is consistent with BH's policies though. Refer to the FAQ on page 1 of this thread for more information. Thanks
 
Guys, there is an entire separate shiny thread to debate on what should be banned and what shouldn't so don't clutter the ladder thread with it if you can.
As for Gengarite, I am in general neutral about it and I can see points for and against it on either side. I am considering opening a suspect poll on it if there is enough interest. I'd like to point out that disallowing Shadow Tag while keeping Gengarite is consistent with BH's policies though. Refer to the FAQ on page 1 of this thread for more information. Thanks

By keeping Gengarite you mean Mega-Gengar would be allowed to hold Gengarite, just not normal Gengar, correct?
 
I'll be bringing some replays later of Gengarite Gengar in its full potential, as it is currently the most busted thing in the meta. (However, I don't think it is worthy of a ban).

Also, I disagree with the aforementioned Pogre ban as it is one of the top ways to keep Primal Groudon, one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the meta with nearly infinite viable sets, in check.
You can't use the fact that it checks something else that's broken as a reason for not banning. Not that I'm saying Pogre should be banned, but anything that is ban worthy should be banned regardless of what it checks.
 
By keeping Gengarite you mean Mega-Gengar would be allowed to hold Gengarite, just not normal Gengar, correct?
MGar can hold Gengarite, but it can't use it to mega evolve. Note that banning Gengarite wouldn't affect any MGar sets at all, as Z-Crystals perform the exact same role (Trick/Koff blocking) but better - not that it usually cares.
 
Can anyone explain why Pogre is OP? The sets I see it most commonly run is PH, Fur Coat and Regenvest, with Primordial Sea scattered here and there. Fur Coat and Regenvest isn't OP, and are nowhere close to impossible to muscle past due to Pogre's lack of key resistances. PH Pogre might be imbalanced, but PH Regibroke isn't on the chopping board, and PH Regibroke is arguably stronger than PH Pogre. That's not including the fact that Core Enforcer from a tanky mon hard-counters both (I had a M-Audino with Unaware and Safety Goggles and it loled at a +1 150 base power Water Spout from Pogre, taking around 30-35%.) Quiver Dance sets regularly run a water move and and 1 coverage move, with some support move (like Spore, Leech, or Recovery) in the 4th slot. Said Coverage move is usually Ice Beam, Freeze-dry, or Moonblast, making most set-up Pogres relatively easy to stop. So which of Pogre's sets are unstoppable and broken enough to warrant a ban on Pogre?
 
Can anyone explain why Pogre is OP? The sets I see it most commonly run is PH, Fur Coat and Regenvest, with Primordial Sea scattered here and there. Fur Coat and Regenvest isn't OP, and are nowhere close to impossible to muscle past due to Pogre's lack of key resistances. PH Pogre might be imbalanced, but PH Regibroke isn't on the chopping board, and PH Regibroke is arguably stronger than PH Pogre. That's not including the fact that Core Enforcer from a tanky mon hard-counters both (I had a M-Audino with Unaware and Safety Goggles and it loled at a +1 150 base power Water Spout from Pogre, taking around 30-35%.) Quiver Dance sets regularly run a water move and and 1 coverage move, with some support move (like Spore, Leech, or Recovery) in the 4th slot. Said Coverage move is usually Ice Beam, Freeze-dry, or Moonblast, making most set-up Pogres relatively easy to stop. So which of Pogre's sets are unstoppable and broken enough to warrant a ban on Pogre?

I am one of the people who disagree that Primals are banworthy, and I do not think Primal Kyogre is banworthy at all. I mean, not even close to that.

I was not even a member in this website during GKR suspect test, and I heard that the main reason that Primal Kyogre was banned last generation is because of the difficulty to stop the Poison Heal set. From what have I seen in the short period of time in Gen 6 BH, Scald spams will eventually take down most walls, Leech Seed helps Kyogre eliminate Imposter while losing next to no health, Freeze-Dry will take down opposing Kyogre and Mega Gyarados, and rare King Shield was a giant middle finger to -ate users which were way more prominent than this generation.

But now, we have two new moves: Core Enforcer, which nullifies ability and Kyogre will be vulnerable to the nullification of ability especially when it accumulates the Speed boost from Quiver Dance and increases the likelihood of being hit by Core Enforcer last, and Spectral Thief, which made most support 'mons able to deal with their passivity and steal boosts. I think me and tons of other people mentioned about these factors couple times and made substantial statements about how PH Kyogre is way easier to deal with with less preparation this generation.

That's about Poison Heal. Let's move onto defensive forms. Fur coat set is hard to break, because combined with its 160 SpDef stat, it is hard to penetrate, but it still has hard time dealing with Primal Groudon variants with Stakeout and Tinted Lens, and it means it is defensively outclassed by Giratina and Zygarde-C, and it is only better than them when are you trying to imposter-proof something like Kyurem-B or Mega Diancie. Regenvest Kyogre utilizes its 160 SpDef stat which is further boosted by Assault Vest, but it is offensively outclassed by anything else. It has no opportunity to accumulate boosts other than by using Spectral Thief on stuff like Triage Mega Rayquaza (even this is hard because most of these variants carry Spore), and it isn't really a reliable check towards MMY such as Solgaleo or Gyarados which actually can deal with Psystrike.

It is true that we always have to prepare for Primals, but I do not think this is hard; if we consider banned stuff:

CFZ's
We had to run like 2 regenvest pivots that has to rotate in between to handle CFZ's.

Water Bubble
We had to run Water Absorb on weird stuff like Water Absorb and had to use regenvest Gyarados.

Innards Out
There was no perfect way to deal with this other than by using Magic Guard or False Swipe.

We do not need gimmicks to check Primals. You can run your own Primal Kyogre to force out Primal Groudon and vice versa is possible if your own Primal Groudon has Desolate Land.
 
Honestly, I'd say Primal Groudon would be more suspect worthy than Primal Kyogre. Kyogre usually needs a moment to set-up to start nuking or needs to keep its HP high. Meanwhile, Groudon can just click V-Create and be done with it. Plus Fire/Ground STAB has waaaaaaay better coverage than Water.

...granted, I don't think either is in need of a suspect presently. I still feel Shadow Tag and other trapping is more important.
 
I still feel Shadow Tag and other trapping is more important.

By facing my teams with Gengarite (Shadow Tag), I decided to consider Shadow Tag is suspect-worthy.

Here, I explained what traits make people think Shadow Tag is banworthy or not. But I recently concluded that there is no perfect way to deal with this ability.

We can run U-turns on every 'mons!

I don't even know how this makes sense. Let's say we have your precious Fur Coat Zygarde-C which Imposter-proofs your own Primal Groudon and MMX. After taking some damage, and you decide that you need to press Milk Drink.... and I can only imagine your face when opposing Gengar switches into that. Now your Zygarde-C is encored, hears Perish Song, and dies after 3 turns, and you will lose because either you cannot dare to pull out Pdon and MMX to kill stuff fearing Imposter after you lost improofing Zygarde-C, or because you end up pulling out aforementioned wallbreakers out of impatience over the course of long match and Imposter switches in afterwards.

This makes lose-lose situation, your wall, over the course of the match, will take damage from entry hazards, U-turns, and other stuff, and when you decide you have to heal them, you risk losing your wall forever. If you are too scared of Gengar and decide to spam U-turn, your wall will eventually faint. (assuming your wall lacks Magic Bounce)

Also, some sets I have seen carries Baneful Bunker or Toxic, and this means almost anyone trapped will get out alive poisoned even if they have U-turn.


Regenvest 'mons are unaffected?

Uh, no, they are. Some day, you might wanna get rid of Stealth Rock in your side, and at some point, you will press Rapin Spin with your RegenVest Solgaleo, Defog with your Zygarde-C... and if Gengar switches in... I will not repeat what happens, since I mentioned the consequence above.


Offensive presence leaves Gengar with nothing to do!

I thought so initially, but this is not true.

So 90+% of Gengar variants that use Mega Evolution I've seen uses Illusion. And it can do so many things:

* Ice Beam on Rayquaza
* Sludge Wave on Audino
* Trapping support 'mons without switching moves
* Baiting Trick or Switcheroo and eliminate the user if successful

I posted this replay and barely anyone gave an interest. (Opposing side is me)
upload_2017-5-3_9-28-10.png


I was happy until turn 58, thinking that I successfully crippled the wall that was bothering me the most.

My team had offensive presence for the whole time, the the game itself was filled with so many mind games, and by simply not switching out after using Switcheroo, I am punished by losing one of the most important cores in my team. Also, at the last turn of Perish Song countdown, Audino switched back in and got its Safety Goggles back, and made the 5 turns a nightmare for me.

upload_2017-5-3_9-36-24.png



My Primal Groudon is down, but since Slowbro on their side is down, I do not have much concerns about it.

Now I successfully brought Kyu-W into Audino, and I realized this is the perfect example of lose-lose situations caused by Shadow Tag.

Given that my Kyu-W is Specs Refrigerate set, their Gyarados is RegenVest...
Lets see what can happen here:

* Audino:
1. Take a Boomburst and die but I doubt Funbot will let that happen.
2. Predicting Secret Sword will happen, switch into Gengar but it is risky af. Common sense won't make this happen either.
3. Predicting Secret Sword will happen, it can stay in and proceed to pivot into Gengar.

* Zygarde-C:
1. Kyu-W revealed Draco Meteor / Boomburst (Refrigerate), can't even come in.

* Gengar:
1. Fraility means if it takes Draco Meteor or Boomburst, it will die.

* Gyarados:
1. Switch in to take Boomburst or Draco Meteor, pivot out, and gain momentum.
2. If switched into Secret Sword, there is a chance of OHKO (which means my crit next turn was lucky, but I assume I was rewarded with my prediction)
3. Even if Gyarados dies to Secret Sword, Gengar can proceed to switch in and remove Kyu-W with Perish Song.

So the best choice for Funbot is switching into Gyarados, and if the outcome is evaluated:

1. Boomburst: walled.
2. Draco Meteor: ''
3. Secret Sword: risking OHKO but Gengar can take care of it.


This is lose-lose situation; if I am too scared, I keep getting walled by Gyarados every time I switch my Kyu-W in. If I decide to make prediction, Kyu-W dies afterwards to Gengar.

I seriously doubt that this replay is the only specific case where Gengar is viable against offensive archetype of teams. Now Gengar puts opponent under even more pressure than Imposters do in team preview.

Shadow Tag forces players to not only prepare, but to play mind games every single time they are about to press any status move or Normal-type attacks. It doesn't make the metagame less competitive, but it strictly inhibits players' activity in the game due to Shadow Tag + Encore + Perish Song. This trait makes Shadow Tag advance from discussion-worthy to suspect-worthy ability in my opinion.

Edit:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-571127175

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-571127175
See? My Audino can't even press recovery because of that stupid Shadow Tag.http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-571127175
 
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I totally agree with you about Gengar, it needs to be suspected.

But there is something I mentioned earlier but which got overlooked when discussions about Primals, STag etc. came up: The introduction of a Sleep Clause.

This short match I had today is actually a pretty good example for why a sleep clause is needed (I forgot to save the replay):
1st turn: I lead with PDon against an opposing Deoxys-S. He put my Groudon to sleep with Lovely Kiss, I wanted to lay out Stealth Rocks.
2nd turn: I again tried to lay out Stealth Rocks, thinking that the opposing Deoxys may be the usual hazards lead, but Groudon did not wake up. He used Shell Smash, revealing that it was not a hazards lead.
3rd turn: I switched to my Unaware Gyarados with Safety Goggles. He used Substitute.
4th turn: He put my Gyarados to sleep with Lovely Kiss. With a sleep clause this wouldn't be possible. Even my safety goggles did not help there. I tried to use Spectral Thief, but Gyarados was asleep.
5th turn: He used another Shell Smash (greedy?), Gyarados did not wake up for a Spectral Thief.
6th turn: He baton passed to his Kangaskhan. Gyarados woke up, but Kangaskan is immune to Spectral Thief.
7th turn: I switched to Fur Coat Zygod, but it got 2HKOed by Mega Kangaskhan's Power Trip. Then, I forfeited, as I had no more counterplay (my current, more offensive-orientated team lacks a prankster user).

With sleep clause, he wouldn't be able to put Gyarados to sleep. This would lead to the following possibilities: 1) He baton passes after just a single shell smash. Zygarde would be able to wall Kangaskan's Power Trip, kill the sub and also chip it with Rocky Helmet damage. 2) he tries another Shell Smash, but then he would lose the boosts to Gyarados's Spectral Thief and Deoxys would faint or 3) he just switches to another mon, so that the battle would go on "neutrally" without an early sweep.

Tis, of course, is not the only game I only lost because of the lack of a sleep clause. I even tried out Misty Surge, but with Psysurge being on nearly every team, it is just too ineffective and sacrifices an ability slot which could be used with a more useful ability.
 
Honestly, I'd say Primal Groudon would be more suspect worthy than Primal Kyogre. Kyogre usually needs a moment to set-up to start nuking or needs to keep its HP high. Meanwhile, Groudon can just click V-Create and be done with it. Plus Fire/Ground STAB has waaaaaaay better coverage than Water.

...granted, I don't think either is in need of a suspect presently. I still feel Shadow Tag and other trapping is more important.
yeah, both kyogre and groudon have massive problems that prevent them from being suspect worthy. kyogre has a rough time vs multiple things, LP chans, spectral theif, core enforcer, regenvesters, opposing physical attackers, making it difficult to set up in many scenarios, meanwhile groudon has its OWN problems, in that it really lacks the speed to be threatening, and has to rely on power(banded) or speed (scarf) which massively reduces itself in one trait or the other. not to mention pdon suffers from the decrease of atespeed and increase of general bulk, meaning one of its many beautiful traits of being a offensive "fakespeed absorber" is massively reduced. and obviously, fur coat and giratina/zygarde hardwall pdon to the point of practically forcing pdon to run specific sets to stop them. maybe if things change, they can be looked at, but rn, they are just "top tier threats" rather then "broken"

looking at some of the issues of gengarite, im starting to shift my opinion in that it needs to be suspected. beforehand, i completely forgot about encore, and encore alone turns stag gar into a huge problem for both stall and balance. balance often runs stuff like zygarde and other walls to help block off sets that teams run (a good example, is running banded pdon, which forces you to run either zyggy, or giratina, well, by removing zygarde by encoring it when it uses recover, basically completely shifts the outcome of the game from "how to manage zyggy so i can still use pdon when they have imposter" to "how do i keep zyggy alive to avoid megar, so i can potentially use pdon to break the opposing core, being weary of using fighting/normal/poison/fairy moves as all of them can result in a lost mon 100% of the time". another issue i forgot, is that illusion makes it so you cant predict when its about to happen the first time you send in zygarde. whats the issue about this? well it means that gengar basically has a free kill. which turns the above scenario from "how do i keep zyggy alive to avoid megar, so i can potentially use pdon to break the opposing core, being weary of using fighting/normal/poison/fairy moves as all of them can result in a lost mon 100% of the time" to "fuck. that pdon was actually their gengar...and now i cant send in my wincon anymore or i lose".

with all this said, i completely take back what i said about stag before. and im completely on board with a gengarite suspect. its a unhealthy component in the game, and ngl, i kind of want to consider magnet pull for a similar reason later on. its a smaller scale, but the scales still there. unhealthy is unhealthy. BH relys on the aspect that "until ___ is dead, my ___ can put in work" and having even a small deterrant to this aspect can easily cause unfair wins.

trapping moves dont count because those take turns to use, and it means most mons will have a form to escape by the turn trapping moves are used. and after that, you can assume when the trap is going to come out, and can alter your strategy to accomodate.
 
I have been alluding this on discord but might as well post my opinions here. I feel that Stag Gar is as good as it is mainly thanks to metagame trends that aid it more so then its potency as a standalone mon. In a meta where heavy hitters such as Choice Band Primal Groudon, QD Primal Kyogre, and APS Mega Mewtwo Y run rampant, role compression has almost become unavoidable due to it being necessary but almost impossible to cover all these top tier threats. What does this mean exactly in regards to Stag Gar? Well since I have been abusing it extensively ever since Gen 7 BH dropped, I have also noticed that it can be quite detrimental since it can trap things like a defensive Zygarde-C which likely removes your opponents only Pdon switchin for example. In this regard, yes Stag Gar is a nuisance to face, however I would like to bring up discussion on whether or not this is to blame solely on Gengarite, or on the extremely volatile heavy hitters that force passive mons that Gar can trap on most competitive teams.

I am indifferent either way towards a suspect, just wanted to bring up these points.

P.S I am not saying that recovery moves will not be used in a meta with the aforementioned threats gone, but the impact Stag Gar would have when removing checks to these mons will be less impactful towards the outcome to the match imo.
 
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Because the main selling point of -ate was Fakeout + Extreme Speed, that could easily KO most non resisting targets without even suffering damage. Now, between the small nerf to -ate (1.2 from 1.3) and the existence of Dazzling and Psychic Terrain, they are less centralizing.
Thanks! Just a random thought, did nintendo/gamefreak call it galvanize because they couldn't come up with an -ate for it? Electrate would sound horrible XD
 
Not to mention, the addition of more than 510 EVs pretty much ensures stuff like Kyu-B and Mega-Ray can no longer 2HKO the large portions of the tier with Fakespeed.
 
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