BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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Sooo, yeah, lets start to discuss on what is worth discussing.
1) M-kan leaving anything under 25% except shedinja.
2) Sash Smash.
3) Lack of species clause abuse.
4) Set-up spam.
Anyone else has something to add?

EDIT: mispelling
 
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Some people started talking about potential unhealthiness of Psychic Surge and anti-priority abilities, but I am personally neutral about them.

Out of what you have mentioned, what I would support ban on is the fourth one (and I think Sash Smash is in Set-up spam category). I used to scream in the thread to ban Shell Smash but I decided to wait after full EV meta. Sleep is also a worthwhile discussion, I think.

Mega Kangaskhan imo is kept in check due to its middling Speed tier but its ability to take three quarters off on anything is definitely something busted as heck. It also uses Illusion to make people wary of Mega Kangaskhan popping out of nowhere but it struggles against offense and taking down AV regen is a tough job without carrying something like Pursuit (which I think is p useless move outsides that).
 
Sleep clause is something I still support and always will.

Mega-Mom uses a broken ability that's been banned for good reason and is another thing I'll always support. Nature's Madness really pushes it over the edge and, sure, middling speed isn't great, but its main job is to utterly shred any defensive Pokemon not named Shedinja, so it doesn't need to be fast. There's no real counterplay to Nature's Madness other than taking the hit and Metal Bursting back.


Set-up is a tricky thing. The main offenders are Shell Smash and (Unburden) Belly Drum, granting way too much speed and power too fast. Quiver Dance and Shift Gear power up more slowly, giving more time to react to it, while Sword Dance and Tail Glow do not boost speed, making faster Pokemon a reliable answer. However, set-up spam being so strong is a multi-component issue. Anti-priority prevents use of priority checks, like Fakespeed and Prankster Topsy-Turvy from functioning. Anti-priority itself isn't busted alone, but it makes two of last gen's checks unreliable. Meanwhile, Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam completely ignore abilities, which invalidates Unaware and leaves us with Mega-Gyarados as a defensive Unaware hen its supposed to be an offensive Pokemon. Plus Stored Power Trip just lets the Pokemon get so strong it can blow through Unaware anyway. Dark-types having Prankster immunity and a new nasty STAB really don't help matters.

So, on set-up spam, it has three major components and ripping one out should cripple the beast. We can rid ourselves of Shell Smash and Belly Drum, forcing set-up spammers to slow down and/or be more revenge-KOable. We can drop anti-priority from the meta, allowing our -ate Fakespeeders to shine again and making Prankster Topsy-Turvy a reliable method of shutting down set-up. Or we can drop Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam, and probably Stored Power Trip as well, to bring all of our old viable Unaware users back into the fold.

All of these have a little bit of collateral damage, unfortunately, but I'm not aware of a superior 4th option yet.
 
Rumors said:
Mega-Mom uses a broken ability that's been banned for good reason and is another thing I'll always support. Nature's Madness really pushes it over the edge and, sure, middling speed isn't great, but its main job is to utterly shred any defensive Pokemon not named Shedinja, so it doesn't need to be fast. There's no real counterplay to Nature's Madness other than taking the hit and Metal Bursting back.
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There's also having multiple regen mons to switch between, having a PH mon with lots of HP (Giratina, big boss Zygarde), Core Enforcer, Entrainment, certain Prankster mons, etc. to consider as potential counterplay.
 
ScarfWynaut said:
There's also having multiple regen mons to switch between, having a PH mon with lots of HP (Giratina, big boss Zygarde), Core Enforcer, Entrainment, certain Prankster mons, etc. to consider as potential counterplay.
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Under PH, Tina falls to Nature's Madness + Night Shade (37.5% of 504 < 200) while Ziggy lives that.
Mkan can answer to Core Enforcer with Mirror Coat for x4 taken damage while not losing the ability. For example Tina:
252 SpA Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 109-129 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
has to take back 436-516 hp which might totally OHKO (sort of, it's 2 hits).
Some AV users (like Solgaleo) are removed by Nature Madness + Pursuit trapping, and some others have to switch out or die to coverage. Switching out means another mons may take 75% from nature madness. So we need a regen core that isn't weak to pursuit or whatever coverage kan brings.
The problem is anything being a check, bar Shedinja (killed with sunsteel even while sash anyway), has to deal with that at 25% hp, which may not be feasible.
The pros are that it can fail (90% accuracy) and that improofing doesn't exists except shedinja, and it has its problems.
PH zyggy with Protect can stay around for many turns (ph healing 158 each 2 turns means that kan best options globally lowers zyggy health by 21 each turn) but needs an additional form of healing or it will be overwhelmed eventually (that or forcing out m-kan). Kan can run ice coverage to kill zyggy no matter what on the other hand.
 
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Giratina used to counter Mega-Mon with PH since Shadetoss couldn't beat it and it was immune to Super Fang and, which both PH and Giratina's ubiquity the last generation, was enough to keep the momma down. But, anything that has to take 75% damage just to stop Mega-mom for a moment is a pretty terrible check. There's zero safe switch-ins to Mega-mom if it runs Sunsteel Strike for Shedinja. Regen spam is about the only "reliable" defensive answer, but even then Shadetoss does close to 50% of most Regen users and Core Enforcer prevents them from switching, and mom can run recovery to get rid of U-Turn chip.

Okay, so I'm up to five (technically six) moves total. But, big whoop, are you really gonna gamble on Mega-Mom not carrying one of Shadetoss, Sunsteel Strike, Core Enforcer, or recovery just to shakily check it defensively?
 
Mega Kang is too slow to be considered OP for me. Its one of the best stallbreakers in the tier sure (although Regen + PH Dragons gives it problems),it still gets outspeed by a plethora of offensive threats that can threaten to KO it such as Mega Mewtwo Y, Mega Mewtwo X, Mega Rayquaza and Mega Diancie just to name a few. Its bulk is pretty good, but still the lack of resistances means that this bulk cant be taken advantage of in most cases. Mega Kang would rarely want to forfeit movelots for stuff like Counter, Pursuit, or Core Enforcer since its already pretty limited.

Setup spam is still not a problem imo as well especially since we lost one of the best setup sweepers in the metagame in Primal Groudon. Unaware Mega Gyarados and other defensive threats like Fur Coat Chansey and Prankster Registeel are still great ways in checking most setup sweepers with impunity. I dont think anything should be done in regards to setup currently.

Sleep is actually interesting tho, ask Jasp brought up previously, Lovely Kiss is becoming more problematic especially on threats like PH Regigigas and Xerneas. It can be extremely difficult to properly deal with without a Magic Bounce or PH mon (even then the aforementioned threats dont mind being bounced back), and often permits them to sweep quite easily. I would like to see more discussion on this if anything as I can see this developing into more of a nuisance.
 
ElMustacho said:
Under PH, Tina falls to Nature's Madness + Night Shade (37.5% of 504 < 200) while Ziggy lives that.
Mkan can answer to Core Enforcer with Mirror Coat for x4 taken damage while not losing the ability. For example Tina:
252 SpA Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 109-129 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
has to take back 436-516 hp which might totally OHKO (sort of, it's 2 hits).
Some AV users (like Solgaleo) are removed by Nature Madness + Pursuit trapping, and some others have to switch out or die to coverage. Switching out means another mons may take 75% from nature madness. So we need a regen core that isn't weak to pursuit or whatever coverage kan brings.
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Bit unfair to ignore Protect or its variants on Giratina which it can use to successfully check Kangaskhan but then recognize it again when talking about PH Zygarde...

Also, Pursuit? Coverage attacks? Can you show some evidence people actually run these things? I'm not convinced restricting your core of regenerators for things nobody uses is entirely necessary.
 
ScarfWynaut said:
Bit unfair to ignore Protect or its variants on Giratina which it can use to successfully check Kangaskhan but then recognize it again when talking about PH Zygarde...

Also, Pursuit? Coverage attacks? Can you show some evidence people actually run these things? I'm not convinced restricting your core of regenerators for things nobody uses is entirely necessary.
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To be fair I wasn't done writing that message so of course Tina too can Protect from kan like Zygarde. It was my bad not to make that explicitly not being done.
Coverage attacks yes since kan doesn't have 4 moves locked into something to do what we are discussing.

Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Nature's Madness
- Night Shade / Seismic Toss
-
-

Now we might argue that kan wants both Night Shade and Seismic Toss but that still leaves us with 1 move to choose. I personally tried Extreme Speed and Mirror Coat as "coverage" and I wasn't disappointed.
Regenerator apart the free moves usually covers corner cases where kan can't otherwise 2hko a specific target. Pursuit for example stops Regen Solgaleo. Or Ice Hammer can remove Zygarde after 2 rounds of PH.
 
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Funbot28 said:
Sleep is actually interesting tho, ask Jasp brought up previously, Lovely Kiss is becoming more problematic especially on threats like PH Regigigas and Xerneas. It can be extremely difficult to properly deal with without a Magic Bounce or PH mon (even then the aforementioned threats dont mind being bounced back), and often permits them to sweep quite easily. I would like to see more discussion on this if anything as I can see this developing into more of a nuisance.
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hi yes i wanted to bring this back up again bc im sure there are a lot of people who want a sleep clause and a decent amount who don't and i feel like a bit of a compromise between the two would be to take a look at the most broken move in regards to sleep which would be lovely kiss
compared to spore, it has less accuracy but also less counterplay
idk if i have a lot to say about it at this moment but i do think it's worth talking about this move a bit more and maybe (?) think about suspecting it sometime in the future
 
I definitely think Lovely Kiss should be looked at, the accuracy of the move doesn't hold it back at all imo. The opponent still has to to treat the move as if it'll hit or take the one-sided gamble that it'll miss. The lower accuracy really doesn't add any new counterplay other than relying on the miss, which isn't really an option when having one mon be crippled could potentially cost you the game. Combine this with Lovely Kiss's ability to bypass Goggles and you have a move that's arguably harder to deal with than Spore. The lower consistency is mostly an issue only for the player using it, since the opponent usually has to play safe. And in the case that they bank on the move missing, the whole thing devolves into some dumb game of chance. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean that the move is broken, you'd still have to prove that the other methods of dealing with sleep aren't enough to do so. Just wanted to throw this out there.
 
Can we talk about Psysurge?
I honestly think that this is something we should be looking at, aside from sleep of course. Choice Specs MMY in terrain is really strong, and a bit overwhelming, requiring a *4 resist in solgaleo or a dark type, both of which can be easily bypassed.


252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 278-328 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal: 338-398 (74.1 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 298-352 (62.3 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And I can hear you know going on about how they usually run psystrike/psycho/moongeist/volt switch but trust me when I say psystrike/psycho/moonblast/blue flare is the only true specs set. Try it its good I swear.
Even the most used set with moongeist beam threatens solgaleo,


252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 230-272 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO


and it doesnt help that a vest set needs to switch to heal.

Not to mention that EVERYTHING ELSE already falls to psystrike/psycho boost


252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina in Psychic Terrain: 486-573 (96.4 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina in Psychic Terrain: 348-409 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Audino-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 336-396 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Audino-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 469-553 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete in Psychic Terrain: 570-672 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete in Psychic Terrain: 345-406 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 330-388 (46.8 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 357-420 (50.7 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


The real question is, is it the terrain, or mmy?
I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this
 
Most of my losses are due to one of the following things:
  • Bad play, of course
  • Random Shell Smashes out of nowhere
  • Bad luck with sleep
  • Mispredicted a PDon set (but this is banned now)
  • 6x same mon teams and missguessed the active mon's set
MMY and Psychic surge aren't really problematic; Solgaleo is a great check, Gyara can kill with Pursuit if switched into a Blue Flare, Moongeist or psychic-type move, Imposter can switch in easily...
It is one of the few things which can be checked consistently (Solg survives a +2 Moongeist from a Shell Smash variant), due to it being solely specially offensive and bad STAB typing in Psychic. Even when Solgaleo gets hit by a Blue Flare, it can switch out to heal and any fire-resistant mon can come in for free.
 
On Lovely Kiss, I don't think its the problem, at all. Bypassing Safety Goggles? Not to be rude but, woo? Lovely Kiss trades consistency for not needing to remove Safety Goggles first (and sleeping the four Grass-types in the meta, but they're not common). But the thing is, you usually want Knock Off support somewhere on your team anyway for dealing with other stuff, such as exposing a Fur Coat Chansey or Regenvest Solgaleo to attacks or removing Choice Items from wall breakers, so you don't really lose out on having to run Knock Off. Besides, I personally see Spore way more often than Lovely Kiss still. I feel there's definitely not enough kissing going on to try banning that move to deal with sleep.


On Psysurge Mewtwo... I don't think its broken. But, if I were to assume it was and wanted to tackle something about it, I'd focus on Ytwo. Offensively, Psy Surge's boost isn't that big. It's Drizzle strong. It's Mewtwo's extreme power and speed is what lets it abuse it so well. If, in this hypothetical situation where I assumed it was broken and Ytwo was banned, Mega-zam doesn't hit as hard, Deo-A drops to a stiff breeze and therefore can't run Specs / LO effectively, X-Two lacks an amazing Pyschic STAB, and Mega-Garde has absolutely average speed compared to the rest of the meta. Nothing else abuses Psy Terrain like Ytwo.
 
Rumors said:
On Lovely Kiss, I don't think its the problem, at all. Bypassing Safety Goggles? Not to be rude but, woo? Lovely Kiss trades consistency for not needing to remove Safety Goggles first (and sleeping the four Grass-types in the meta, but they're not common). But the thing is, you usually want Knock Off support somewhere on your team anyway for dealing with other stuff, such as exposing a Fur Coat Chansey or Regenvest Solgaleo to attacks or removing Choice Items from wall breakers, so you don't really lose out on having to run Knock Off. Besides, I personally see Spore way more often than Lovely Kiss still. I feel there's definitely not enough kissing going on to try banning that move to deal with sleep.


On Psysurge Mewtwo... I don't think its broken. But, if I were to assume it was and wanted to tackle something about it, I'd focus on Ytwo. Offensively, Psy Surge's boost isn't that big. It's Drizzle strong. It's Mewtwo's extreme power and speed is what lets it abuse it so well. If, in this hypothetical situation where I assumed it was broken and Ytwo was banned, Mega-zam doesn't hit as hard, Deo-A drops to a stiff breeze and therefore can't run Specs / LO effectively, X-Two lacks an amazing Pyschic STAB, and Mega-Garde has absolutely average speed compared to the rest of the meta. Nothing else abuses Psy Terrain like Ytwo.
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we dont always ban things because theyre op
look at chatter
chatter wasnt op, it was just impossible to consistently beat and stupid
the thing about lkiss is that its stupid and you cant really prepare for it like spore and if you get unlucky you might completely lose bc gigas gets to +1 and your fc wall's taken chip or something
 
jrm115 said:
the thing about lkiss is that its stupid and you cant really prepare for it like spore and if you get unlucky you might completely lose bc gigas gets to +1 and your fc wall's taken chip or something
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Poison Heal and Magic Bounce are both abilities people are using commonly and are easy to prepare for. Misty Surge/Terrain, Electric/Surge Terrain, Comatose, Guts, Quick Feet, Flare Boost, faster Taunt/Encore, Magic Coat, OHKOing the sleep user first, cleric support, and Lum Berry are all also possible options, team compositions and match-ups permitting. There's also niche options like Insomnia, Vital Spirit, Sleep Talk, Chesto Berry that probably aren't relevant, but worth noting.

Seriously, Spore has only two answers over Lovely Kiss: Safety Goggles, which is removed by Knock Off, and Grass-types, who don't function on most teams in the current meta. Most of the preparation for Spore works for Lovely Kiss or other forms of sleep too. If your only answer to Spore is Safety Goggles then I'll be blunt: you're doing it wrong.

Keep in mind, I'm in favor of sleep clause. But I'm not in favor of banning just Lovely Kiss because its almost as bad as the suggestion banning Frustration for "adding too much variance" way back in early Gen VI or the -ate clause that was largely ineffective in keeping -ate abilities from dominating. IMO, deal with sleep or leave it be, don't do a half-assed ban that accomplishes little.



And Chatter was hideously OP and was probably one of the quickest things banned form BH once it was programmed properly, if memory serves right. (So broken I used to win games with a team of six Gale Wings Chatots when it was mis-programmed to only work on Chatot.)
 
KrazyKoopa95 said:
Can someone summarize why Pdon was banned? Out of all the mons, Pdon banned but Mega-Ray not? Why though?
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If you want a tl;dr pdon has stab V-create and Thousand arrows which gives amazing stab coverage and power and has more useful resistances than mega ray for example.

Edit: bear in mind we had like 2 months of discussion in the thread and in chats about it so there's a lot more detail but that's the crux of the matter
 
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KrazyKoopa95 said:
Can someone summarize why Pdon was banned? Out of all the mons, Pdon banned but Mega-Ray not? Why though?
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To add to what Will said: it also placed immense pressure on team building due to the fact that it could break cores very, very well. V-create is also very much better than heat crash. Don't use heat crash.
 
mewtwo-megax.gif
mewtwo-megay.gif


I'd like to talk about Mewtwo.

One of the most controversial issues from the beginning of Generation 7 BH is setup spams involving anti-priority abilities, also known as Psychic Surge, Dazzling, and Queenly Majesty. What I initially thought about these issues is that they almost invalidate counterplay once anything sets up (barring Prankster dbond and scarf Chansey) and it is potentially banworthy. However, after full EV limit made the metagame bulkier in general and OHKOs became way less common, I thought we could just pass on and look at other stuff, like, Sleep Clause and other things.

So here we are after Primal Groudon ban and what is the biggest threat? I'd say, the greatest threats are Mewtwo.
No other Pokemon in this tier has comparable stats when it comes to both offensive stats and Speed tier. With the coveted Psychic Surge, it can theoretically cancel one of its greatest drawbacks called priority. Last gen Mewtwo, especially MMY was pretty much a deadweight due to it being KO'd by any -ate users' FakeSpeed and all of the boosts being ruined by Encore or Topsy-Turvy from Prankster users. But now, not only Psychic Surge shuts down all of the aforementioned counterplay, but also it boosts Psychic-moves by 50% which led to people spamming Specs Psycho Boost.

At this point one might wonder why am I talking about Mewtwo instead of Psychic Surge, when it is the ability itself that is inherent cause of SpecsBoost spams and setup spams. I too, like others did, concluded Psychic Surge is the culprit of all the phenomenons I have mentioned... until I made some thoughts.

First off, who uses Psychic Surge other than MMX and MMY? Are there any viable Psychic types that are able to have this ability stapled into themselves and perform something different than both Mewtwo's? If we take stuff like Gardevoir, Lati@s, or Deoxys-A... they are just entirely worse. Gardevoir's second STAB doesn't really mean it is superior to MMY because it is vulnerable by its Speed tier that is slower than Mega Rayquaza and Gengar, Lati@s has both of its dual STAB walled by Steel-types and also suffer from their Speed tier, and Deoxys-A won't be given a second chance once it screws up. Mewtwo, over all of these 'mons, have blazing Speed tier that requires something like Pheromosa or Beedrill to outspeed, while they can always make lure sets for their usual checks thanks to their excellent mixed offensive stats. MMX mostly runs sash smash with CC and Stored Power which nothing other than stuff like Unaware Yveltal can handle, and MMY, who possesses the infamy of SpecsBoost that is almost as terrifying as Primal Groudon's V-create was, can always run Fleur Cannon to OHKO the most relevant Dark-types, Contrary to do the same, or run mixed stats to break the likes of Solgaleo and Registeel with ease.

I think Mewtwo's are potentially broken. Especially with USUM coming out next month, we cannot tell what new crazy abilities will Mewtwo equip to run rampant in the ladder as they always have been. Of course, some traits from Mewtwo are incomparable with Primal Groudon; MMX has mediocre STAB combination and Imposter switches into it all day, while MMY's SpecsBoost at least has an immunity and is vulnerable to Pursuit trapping.

But these two 'mons have their own way to eliminate these drawbacks; most of the MMX I see are

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Focus Sash
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Stored Power
- Close Combat
- Sunsteel Strike
- Shell Smash

... something similar to this or whatever that OHKO's its own Imposter, and full EV made MMY's life much more bearable.

Before:

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 402-474 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 420-494 (118.9 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 163-193 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 322-379 (91.2 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

After:

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 294-348 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 308-366 (74 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 120-142 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 237-280 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

So yeah. I'm not necessarily claiming that Mewtwo is inherently banworthy but I just wanted everyone, including myself, to have some time to think about whether we are approaching this problem in appropriate way, and I spent the time to point out primary abusers. What do you think?

Edit:
tldr; I think, if we were to solve anti-priority issue by banning stuff, removing MMX and MMY will be better than simply taking out Psychic Surge.
 
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