BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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RNGIsFatal said:
mewtwo-megax.gif
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I'd like to talk about Mewtwo.

One of the most controversial issues from the beginning of Generation 7 BH is setup spams involving anti-priority abilities, also known as Psychic Surge, Dazzling, and Queenly Majesty. What I initially thought about these issues is that they almost invalidate counterplay once anything sets up (barring Prankster dbond and scarf Chansey) and it is potentially banworthy. However, after full EV limit made the metagame bulkier in general and OHKOs became way less common, I thought we could just pass on and look at other stuff, like, Sleep Clause and other things.

So here we are after Primal Groudon ban and what is the biggest threat? I'd say, the greatest threats are Mewtwo.
No other Pokemon in this tier has comparable stats when it comes to both offensive stats and Speed tier. With the coveted Psychic Surge, it can theoretically cancel one of its greatest drawbacks called priority. Last gen Mewtwo, especially MMY was pretty much a deadweight due to it being KO'd by any -ate users' FakeSpeed and all of the boosts being ruined by Encore or Topsy-Turvy from Prankster users. But now, not only Psychic Surge shuts down all of the aforementioned counterplay, but also it boosts Psychic-moves by 50% which led to people spamming Specs Psycho Boost.

At this point one might wonder why am I talking about Mewtwo instead of Psychic Surge, when it is the ability itself that is inherent cause of SpecsBoost spams and setup spams. I too, like others did, concluded Psychic Surge is the culprit of all the phenomenons I have mentioned... until I made some thoughts.

First off, who uses Psychic Surge other than MMX and MMY? Are there any viable Psychic types that are able to have this ability stapled into themselves and perform something different than both Mewtwo's? If we take stuff like Gardevoir, Lati@s, or Deoxys-A... they are just entirely worse. Gardevoir's second STAB doesn't really mean it is superior to MMY because it is vulnerable by its Speed tier that is slower than Mega Rayquaza and Gengar, Lati@s has both of its dual STAB walled by Steel-types and also suffer from their Speed tier, and Deoxys-A won't be given a second chance once it screws up. Mewtwo, over all of these 'mons, have blazing Speed tier that requires something like Pheromosa or Beedrill to outspeed, while they can always make lure sets for their usual checks thanks to their excellent mixed offensive stats. MMX mostly runs sash smash with CC and Stored Power which nothing other than stuff like Unaware Yveltal can handle, and MMY, who possesses the infamy of SpecsBoost that is almost as terrifying as Primal Groudon's V-create was, can always run Fleur Cannon to OHKO the most relevant Dark-types, Contrary to do the same, or run mixed stats to break the likes of Solgaleo and Registeel with ease.

I think Mewtwo's are potentially broken. Especially with USUM coming out next month, we cannot tell what new crazy abilities will Mewtwo equip to run rampant in the ladder as they always have been. Of course, some traits from Mewtwo are incomparable with Primal Groudon; MMX has mediocre STAB combination and Imposter switches into it all day, while MMY's SpecsBoost at least has an immunity and is vulnerable to Pursuit trapping.

But these two 'mons have their own way to eliminate these drawbacks; most of the MMX I see are

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Focus Sash
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Stored Power
- Close Combat
- Sunsteel Strike
- Shell Smash

... something similar to this or whatever that OHKO's its own Imposter, and full EV made MMY's life much more bearable.

Before:

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 402-474 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 420-494 (118.9 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 163-193 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 322-379 (91.2 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

After:

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 294-348 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 308-366 (74 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 120-142 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 237-280 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

So yeah. I'm not necessarily claiming that Mewtwo is inherently banworthy but I just wanted everyone, including myself, to have some time to think about whether we are approaching this problem in appropriate way, and I spent the time to point out primary abusers. What do you think?

Edit:
tldr; I think, if we were to solve anti-priority issue by banning stuff, removing MMX and MMY will be better than simply taking out Psychic Surge.
Click to expand...

Bans are not healthy for the meta IMO.

When I first learnt about psychic surge, it came as a GodSend otherwise I would've gotten wrecked every time by Tail Glow Triage Rayquaza and the -ates. You could say that imposter chansey beats those mons but not everybody wants that "meta defining" pink blob on their team.

Both mewtwos have their purpose in the meta as wall breakers, Anti Priority Support and Mixed Offense Sweepers. The counters to these mons are not limited and are very common to keep them "in check". A spam of either is hard to beat yes but I've experienced and seen teams that simply laugh at mmx & mmy and wipe them out.

PS. We need to have a sleep clause, its long overdue.
 
RNGIsFatal said:
mewtwo-megax.gif
mewtwo-megay.gif


I'd like to talk about Mewtwo.

One of the most controversial issues from the beginning of Generation 7 BH is setup spams involving anti-priority abilities, also known as Psychic Surge, Dazzling, and Queenly Majesty. What I initially thought about these issues is that they almost invalidate counterplay once anything sets up (barring Prankster dbond and scarf Chansey) and it is potentially banworthy. However, after full EV limit made the metagame bulkier in general and OHKOs became way less common, I thought we could just pass on and look at other stuff, like, Sleep Clause and other things.

So here we are after Primal Groudon ban and what is the biggest threat? I'd say, the greatest threats are Mewtwo.
No other Pokemon in this tier has comparable stats when it comes to both offensive stats and Speed tier. With the coveted Psychic Surge, it can theoretically cancel one of its greatest drawbacks called priority. Last gen Mewtwo, especially MMY was pretty much a deadweight due to it being KO'd by any -ate users' FakeSpeed and all of the boosts being ruined by Encore or Topsy-Turvy from Prankster users. But now, not only Psychic Surge shuts down all of the aforementioned counterplay, but also it boosts Psychic-moves by 50% which led to people spamming Specs Psycho Boost.

At this point one might wonder why am I talking about Mewtwo instead of Psychic Surge, when it is the ability itself that is inherent cause of SpecsBoost spams and setup spams. I too, like others did, concluded Psychic Surge is the culprit of all the phenomenons I have mentioned... until I made some thoughts.

First off, who uses Psychic Surge other than MMX and MMY? Are there any viable Psychic types that are able to have this ability stapled into themselves and perform something different than both Mewtwo's? If we take stuff like Gardevoir, Lati@s, or Deoxys-A... they are just entirely worse. Gardevoir's second STAB doesn't really mean it is superior to MMY because it is vulnerable by its Speed tier that is slower than Mega Rayquaza and Gengar, Lati@s has both of its dual STAB walled by Steel-types and also suffer from their Speed tier, and Deoxys-A won't be given a second chance once it screws up. Mewtwo, over all of these 'mons, have blazing Speed tier that requires something like Pheromosa or Beedrill to outspeed, while they can always make lure sets for their usual checks thanks to their excellent mixed offensive stats. MMX mostly runs sash smash with CC and Stored Power which nothing other than stuff like Unaware Yveltal can handle, and MMY, who possesses the infamy of SpecsBoost that is almost as terrifying as Primal Groudon's V-create was, can always run Fleur Cannon to OHKO the most relevant Dark-types, Contrary to do the same, or run mixed stats to break the likes of Solgaleo and Registeel with ease.

I think Mewtwo's are potentially broken. Especially with USUM coming out next month, we cannot tell what new crazy abilities will Mewtwo equip to run rampant in the ladder as they always have been. Of course, some traits from Mewtwo are incomparable with Primal Groudon; MMX has mediocre STAB combination and Imposter switches into it all day, while MMY's SpecsBoost at least has an immunity and is vulnerable to Pursuit trapping.

But these two 'mons have their own way to eliminate these drawbacks; most of the MMX I see are

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Focus Sash
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Stored Power
- Close Combat
- Sunsteel Strike
- Shell Smash

... something similar to this or whatever that OHKO's its own Imposter, and full EV made MMY's life much more bearable.

Before:

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 402-474 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 420-494 (118.9 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 163-193 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 322-379 (91.2 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

After:

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 294-348 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 308-366 (74 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 120-142 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 237-280 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

So yeah. I'm not necessarily claiming that Mewtwo is inherently banworthy but I just wanted everyone, including myself, to have some time to think about whether we are approaching this problem in appropriate way, and I spent the time to point out primary abusers. What do you think?

Edit:
tldr; I think, if we were to solve anti-priority issue by banning stuff, removing MMX and MMY will be better than simply taking out Psychic Surge.
Click to expand...

I'm going to be short; MMXY is powerful, but not even close to broken. We can't compare MMY specsboost to don's V-create since MMY screams surge the turn it enters the field. Also pdon wasn't banned for it's very powerful V-create, but for the dozen of sets it had. MMY has like 3, maybe 4 (specs boost, contrary, sheer force, maybe crittwo?). Psychic is also a pretty bad offensive typing, as basically nothing is weak to it (mgar is already afraid of being outspeed), many sets carry immunities to it or quadruple/double resistance to the point where sheer force can afford not to run stab. Specs boost is prediction reliant, one bad move and you get pursuit trapped. Terrain can be overwritten too, misty surge is used to check ph, electric surge to abuse zekrom/xurk, and grassy surge if you like walking in the park. Smash sash can be done by everyone, it's not a MMX toy.
 
Does that mean CFZ's, Water Bubble, Comaphaze, Innards Out... and Primal Groudon are coming back?

Can't wait for healthy metagame

Edit:

Nvm I'm retarded delet this or w/e
 
Last edited:
Minor thing: I noticed Extreme Evoboost is listed as a separate ban from CFZs. But isn't it legal via Z-crystal Eevee? Meaning it'd fall under the CFZ ban?

Not a big deal, but talking to a friend who occasionally plays competitive Pokemon super casually and asking about the BH ban list, he found it confusing.
 
Since this topic has been whispered about behind closed doors and muttered in hushed tones in the privacy of Discord I thought I'd make a post about it to spark some discussion. In this post I'll be addressing the elephant in the room: Psychic Surge.

There was some talk of suspecting this ability (possibly along with Dazzling/Queenly Majesty) before the coming of full EVs as a possible way to deal with the then all encompassing horror of APS - Anti Priority Setup. Since full EVs this issue has partway fixed itself to the level where it wasn't the top priority (pun intended) and it got relegated compared to Trapping and Pdon. However now some more glaring problems have been ammended and partially thanks to the new addition of Photon Geyser it seems to me that Psychic Surge is once again at the top of the pile of things to discuss, although not necessarily suspect.

Why is it worth considering banworthy: Firstly the anti priority effect that protects the user and it's teammates from priority for 5 turns, or even 8, which allows frail fast threats to operate in relative safety. Secondly the 1.5 multiplier to the power of Psychic type moves. Between these two effects it can definitely be an ability that forces bulky psychic resists on all non-HO teams and makes setup a lot more troublesome to deal with.

So what effect does it have on the meta? The main effect is allowing the Mewtwos to act as incredible wallbreakers (MMX only recently thanks to Photon Geyser) while covering their flaws of below average bulk and in MMX's case weakness to common priority moves. The ability also enables these two mons (among others) to use the dreaded Shell Smash without worrying about being revenge killed by priority and also boosts Stored Power which is deadly after stat boosts.

Here are three of the sets (or variations of them) that I think are the best examples of Psychic Surge as a powerful ability and a couple of calcs:
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Psycho Boost
- Moongeist Beam
- Volt Switch

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Choice Band
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Focus Sash
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 212 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shell Smash
- Close Combat
- Stored Power
- Moongeist Beam

252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina in Psychic Terrain: 486-573 (96.4 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield in Psychic Terrain: 145-171 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO

Questions:
Is it the wall breaking power of Surge users or the setup sets that make this ability (possibly) unhealthy?
Is the ability itself at fault or are the offensive behemoths of the Mewtwo twins at fault with their mind boggling speed and power who are the root of the problem?
Is psychic surge unhealthy enough for either of its qualities (and the combination thereof) to warrant further discussion or action?

Personally I definitely want some discussion and would support a suspect if other people agree, although I'm not sure how I'd hypothetically vote at this stage.
 
In my opinion, Psychic Surge should at least be suspected.

in SM BH, Psychic Surge wasn't really ban- or suspectworthy, as the best abuser was MMY, wich can be handled by RegenVest steels, most notably Solgaleo. Even when it runs coverage like Blue Flare or Moongeist Beam to hit them for super-effective damage, they dom't take too much and can switch out to restore their health and any other decently bulky mon which resists the coverage move can come in to tank it. The fact that MMY is able to hit both the special and the physical defense stats with Psychic STAB moves doesn't even matter that much because most RegenVest steels are bulky enough to tank a Psystrike too. As far as I saw it on the ladder, most teams featuring a Psychic Surge MMY ran Steel lures like -ate users with Fire/Ground coverage to get rid of them and allow MMY to break through the rest of the team, because it alone woulnd't be able to break through said steels.
Also, it is important to note, that RegenVest users use an ITEM to improve their bulk which can't be bypassed by Mold Breaker and Mold Breaker-like side effects on moves such as Photon Geyser.


Now, with USUM a new move got introduced: Photon Geyser. And this is, IMHO, what pushes Psychic Surge over the edge.
It gives MMY an ability-ignoring STAB so that it doesn't have to run Moongeist Bean just to beat Shedinja anymore, freeing up a coverage slot if it forgoes either Psystrike or Psycho Boost for it; but the most notably abuser of that new toy is MMX, which finally gets a good physical Psychic STAB. In contrast to MMY, it not only has a secondary, high-powered STAB that hits most Psychic resists for neutral or super-effective damage, it also is a physical attacker. That means, there's no item to improve the bulk of your MMX check, you have to use an ABILITY like Fur Coat - but Photon Geyser ignores abilities, like Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam, so that it 2HKOs even stuff like Fur Coat Giratina easily.
Back in SM, Sunsteel Strike was mostly run to KO Shedinja and to beat Unaware users in case of Shell Smash sets; it neither gives useful coverage nor hits hard. But now, MMX has a 100 BP STAB move which receives an 1.5x boost from Psychic Surge and bypasses abilities such as Fur Coat. MMX also outspeeds most of the meta, speed tieing with Gengar-Mega and being outsped by its cousin MMY, while being immune to Priority thanks to Psychic Surge, so that revenging it is difficult. Because it 2HKOs its own Imposter with Photon Geyser, switching it in is very dangerous and imposter is not really a check to it, altough it forces it out.
Psychic Surge can also be set by a different mon, allowing MMX to run an ability like Adaptability or Tough Claws to boost its damage output even further.

Now, comparing MMX to Kartana, another high-powered attacker with a STAB that ignores abilities:
Both of Kartana's STABs are resisted by steel types, and even when running Steelworker, it fails to 2HKO most of them. It has to use Steelworker as its ability to boost Sunsteel Strike; running other abilities like Tough Claws and a support mon to provide the 1.5x boost to Sunsteel Strike doesn't work as there's no steel-boosting surge. Because it only has 109 base speed, it is outsped - and killed - by most strong attackers in the current meta, including Mega Ray, both Mewtwos, Mega Diancie, Necrozma-Ultra and others, so that it can easily be forced out or revenged. Kartana also invites Imposter to come in on predicted Sunsteel Strikes due to being resistant to its own STAB and having good physical defense, and loses to it.

Psychic Surge is not only used to power up the Mewtwo twins, it is generaly used to prevent priority attacks. While that might sound broken, it isn't in my opinion, as you see that you can't use priority attacks and can act accordingly, like sending in an Unaware or Imposter rather than a FakeSpeeder against the opposing Shell Smasher. The other anti-prirotity abilities are much more problematic as they don't reveal themselves until the user gets targeted with a priority move, so that playing against a mon with an unown abilitiy becomes a guessing game.

What makes Psychic Surge broken is that it makes those Mewtwos extremely strong, forcing most teams to run specific mons just to not lose to them, which on the other hand makes the team weaker to other, less common threats; and also prevents priority attacks, so that they can just pivot out of dangerous mons without having to fear FakeSpeed or Sucker Punch and are pretty difficult to revenge-kill. Also, don't forget that the Mewtwo doesn't need to have Psychic Surge itself, another mon can set the terrain, freeing up Mewtwo's ability slot for abilities such as Adaptability, Simple, Contrary and others.

In my current team (I managed to reach #1 on the ladder with it), I have both a Sableye-Mega with Fur Coat to check those banded MMX (and of course it got killed by random Fleur Cannons...) and a RegenVest Lugia, which can also switch into MMX if necessary, and is a good check to MMY without being weak to Fire or Ground, so that it can't get lured and killed by typical Solgaleo lures.
 
This is one of those "it's a combination of things" problems. Remove Mewtwo-Both and Psy Surge is probably not a problem. Remove Psy Surge and Mewtwo is probably not a problem. So, the question is, which is more problematic?

I think Semako covers Psy Surge well enough and is enough in-line with my own thoughts I'm not gonna go over that. So, if you want about what I'd say for removal of Psy Surge, read the post directly above mine.

But what about alternative angle of tackling the Mewtwos. Why should we remove them instead? Well, first, who else abuses Psy Surge? Alakazam-Mega is actually faster than Ytwo and can arguably check, but its non-existent since it lacks the same power and manages to have less bulk. Deo-A? Weedle OHKOs it, let alone actually anything meta, forcing it into Focus Sash 90% of the time. New Necrozma? Its slower, weaker, and less bulky. Hoopa-U? Same thing more or less. Latios-M? Slower and weaker. Lunala? Waaaaay weaker and slower. Garde-M? Usually wants Pixilate, so needs team support, and is slower, weaker, and similar bulkish. Metagross-M? Slower and weaker. Solgaleo and Dusky Necro? Slower and weaker, with the former better suited for defensive sets normally. Gallade-M? Slower and weaker. Medicham-M? Locked to Medichamite to even have a chance at being viable. I'm gonna stop there before I start scraping the bottom of the barrel harder but, basically, no potentially relevant Psychic-types have the same strengths of the Mewtwos, with almost all of them being both slower and weaker, thus easier to wall and pressure. Nobody else can abuse Psy Surge as well as them with Deo-A being the closest.

Second, the Mewtwos are continually either at the forefront or some of the top runners for abusing broken offensive stuff. ORAS Protean? Oohhhh yeah, check. Gen VI -ate clause? Xtwo was pretty relevant to that discussion. Innards Out? Not a top biller, but Mewtwo were secondary abusers. Stakeout? Oh yeah, they were there. Pre-full EV APS discussion? They were at the forefront. The Shell Smash discussion that died off? They were leading the charge. And now Psy Surge? Anyone who denies they're responsible for this is, well, not playing.

Third, they are mandatory to prepare for. There isn't "well, if I have a good enough wall I should be able to handle Mewtwo." It's "if I don't have something to handle Mewtwo specifically, they have a high chance of beating me." And with their high speed and offensive stats, they're adaptable. You're running Flash Fire Steels to stop them? Say hello to Earth Power/Precipice Blades/Thousand Arrows/Aura Sphere/Secret Sword/Focus Blast/Close Combat.


So if we're gonna chat Psychic Surge, I feel Mewtwo-Both need to be up for discussion too. I dunno which is more suspect worthy, but both angles of this problem should definitely be discussed.
 
Why not just suspect/ban Photon Geyser? During the SM meta Psysurge MMY was great, yet the meta could wall it nicely (leave home without Blue Flare? Solgaleo walls you; Moongeist Beam? Shedinja smiles; Fleur Cannon? Yveltal pursuits traps you; Secret sword? Mtar sits on you all day). Psysurge MMX was just high risk high reward, and Deo-A is a suicide mon that is just a bit weaker offensively than MMY, faster, and doesn't care much about imposter (for clear reasons). Was MM2X/Y a problem? No, they are surely forces to be considered when team-building but they were far from being centralizing.
Before USUM even considering a suspect on Psychic Surge was debatable, as it wasn't "too much" for the meta.
But with Photon Geyser MMY basically gains a moveslot, MMX psysurge 2HKOes the meta (and what if MMX was running tinted lens/adaptability and surge comes from support? For example Giratina has chances to get OHKOed by adapt geyser surge with SR up), and yet honestly, is there anybody else that use Photon Geyser (don't even think about Light that Burns the Sky Necrozma Ultra) that would lose actual viability?
Before ending this post, I perfectly realize that Photon Geyser isn't a busted move, but if we removed it, both MM2X/Y and psysurge would return being stable.
 
I think the Mewtwos can stay, since neither are as threatening without surge as they are with
mmy's sheer force set is still potent, but not to the level of specssurge, while mmx could theoretically run dazzling sash smash in place of surge, but loses power in stored power, and band geyser just becomes not worth running

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 153-180 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO

You could ban mewtwo and still have deoxys to deal with (cause zam sucks, less spatk,cant go mixed, and negligible [imo] bulk difference) , which may not be as strong, but would still pack a punch.

252 SpA Choice Specs Deoxys-Attack Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina in Psychic Terrain: 328-387 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 402-474 (98 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete in Psychic Terrain: 535-631 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Banning photon is definitely not the way to go.
Its only good on two mons, since psychic normally isnt even that good an offensive type.
Its like trying to justify banning sunsteel because kart gets steelworker

EDIT: I was incorrect about band surge not being worth running, since I fucked up calcs and it can still do this:
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 228-268 (45.2 - 53.1%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO

sorry bout that
 
I'm all for the ban/suspect of Psychic Surge, a common argument against banning it over Dazzling/QM is that "you know it's there, so you won't be clicking priority anyway" but I think the flaw w/ this type of thinking is that people believe predictability = balance. This isn't true and I can't really say that the set is predictable either bc tbh you can switch to your Yveltal/Gyarados/Muk expecting Specs and it could be setup designed to deal w/ those mons which is something I feel should be addressed. So far all I've seen in this thread are examples of wallbreakers like CB MMX Specs MMY Life Orb etc but I've run Tail Glow Mind Plate to a lot of success, Flint's run TG Pixie Plate Future Sight MMY to success, people on ladder run Shell Smash Stored Power setup all the time and we've all been swept by it. Don't be ashamed to admit it, it's happened to everyone lul. In addition, Psysurge support isn't too hard to get - There've been plenty of examples of teams built around a dedicated Psychic Terrain setter with 2 or 3 abusers which all beat "standard" Psychic resists like Regi Yvel and stuff. The thing w/ Psychic Surge is that upon being revealed it forces you to switch to a resist with good natural bulk or an immunity, and this already narrows down your counters/checks to like 4 Pokemon in the metagame (Ttar Registeel Big Bird and Gyara) which makes it ridic easy to choose your checks and counters, moreso than other sets.

Obv I didn't put much effort into this post but tldr is that Psychic Surge isn't that predictable even if it reveals itself upon presence bc the only thing it really guarantees is that your priority won't work on Grounded mons. Also, I want to see some discussion on setup because so far everyone's been talking abotu their band mmx or specs mmy and ignoring one of the best sets on psysurge mons (smash setup) because it's "low ladder garb" is quite unhealthy esp bc it's kinda hard to prep for? I can't remember the last time I ran something for my Psychic resist and said "yep, this is good, I can play around coverage easily." anyways that's all luxray to s+ rank
 
shell smash now runs photon geyser over stored power, or in some cases both, so that nonresisting prankster no longer wall it.

+4 252+ Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield in Psychic Terrain: 290-342 (89.5 - 105.5%)
 
If I am to add to this discussion, I'd say that banning MMY and/or Psychic Surge is excessive and in the case of Psychic Terrain, doesn't solve the issue regarding MMX being able to use Photon Geyser to a troubling degree since Adaptability allows to to still 2HKO Giratina
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 278-328 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What seems to be the issue here is Photon Geyser being broken with MMX and while neither one seems particularly powerful by their lonesome the two together is tremendously so. MMY still and always will struggle with having mono Psychic STAB, weaker mixed potential, more exploitable weaknesses like pursuit, being choice locked, etc.

MMX while a strong threat without Photon Geyser, becomes a monster that can't be walled by any of the common mons within the current meta when given the move and so the issue lies with both of them but only one needs to be banned if we want to balance things out. Photon Geyser is a new addition so it'd be nice for it to stay a little longer but MMX has never before been a direct issue like it is now so I have trouble choosing a side but I think banning Photon Geyser is the better option of the two. Photon Geyser, while a great addition for physical attackers is not limited to being stuck in one category while also being able to completely ignore the opponent's ability, with such strong traits the move could lead to further issues in the future while MMX has been fleshed out rather thoroughly. In all, if something were to be banned I'd personally ban Photon Geyser as it is what broke MMX and could push others over the edge in the future
 
Wait, if the grounds for MMX being broken with Geyser is 2HKOing Giratina with Adapt, how is Ytwo with Geyser not considered broken under the same circumstances for doing almost literally the same thing?

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-Y Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 282-332 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Xtwo has a second STAB for hitting Steel/Dark types, yeah, but Ytwo's usual coverage hits them anyway and also ignores Burn status, Spiky / King's / Baleful protect move punishments, and, in a non-Psy Surge environment, isn't as weak to -ate. And both Mewtwos ARE choice locked in this scenario, which is something you mentioned as a Ytwo specific weakness.

Mostly a targeted nitpick, but I really don't see why MMX + Photon is broken while MMY + Photon is not when the arguement is "2HKO's Giratina" and clearly both accomplish it no problem.
 
Rumors said:
Wait, if the grounds for MMX being broken with Geyser is 2HKOing Giratina with Adapt, how is Ytwo with Geyser not considered broken under the same circumstances for doing almost literally the same thing?

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-Y Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 282-332 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Xtwo has a second STAB for hitting Steel/Dark types, yeah, but Ytwo's usual coverage hits them anyway and also ignores Burn status, Spiky / King's / Baleful protect move punishments, and, in a non-Psy Surge environment, isn't as weak to -ate. And both Mewtwos ARE choice locked in this scenario, which is something you mentioned as a Ytwo specific weakness.

Mostly a targeted nitpick, but I really don't see why MMX + Photon is broken while MMY + Photon is not when the arguement is "2HKO's Giratina" and clearly both accomplish it no problem.
Click to expand...
MMY is walled by things like steel/dark types while MMX can use its other strong STAB to get past those. MMY didn't get anything new in photon geyser nor was Giratina a common check for it, MMX on the other hand was walled by Giratina.

While MMY also carries coverage for its checks it rarely can secure an OHKO, and it couldn't do it with just one move. Running blue flare wouldn't do much to dark types and using moonblast does nothing to steels, earth power is just lame and no one uses secret sword/focus miss. Elaborating more on MMX, aside from a few mons there isn't much of anything that can take two banded close combats, and what could switch into close combat is now 2HKO'd by Photon Geyser (I would give some calcs but I'm on my phone right now and that's too annoying).

Tldr MMY has less reliable coverage and hasn't really changed with the addition of Photon Geyser while MMX now blows through its former checks
 
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Well, lemme continue to play some devil's advocate here. Drop your current thoughts and opinions on the situation and imagine this hypothetical situation: X/Y release and, among the various additions, it includes Mewtwo-Y and Photon Geyser. Both are considered quite strong, but are otherwise more or less fine enough to not require suspecting. This trend continues through ORAS and S/M. In USUM, Mewtwo-X is released for the first time and, wow, using some of these older moves, it is just wrecking everything. It's brought up in suspect discussion and a decision must be made: do we suspect Photon Geyser, which has been otherwise fine since X/Y? Or do we suspect newcomer Mewtwo-X? Or do we instead target items/abilities that Mewtwo-X abuses?

There's no right or wrong answer nor answer I expect you to give, just something to consider here to get a different perspective on the problem. I tend to think about muddy suspect situations like this sometimes to figure out what's the real problem, among other methods. I have my own opinions with this thought exercise on Xtwo vs Photon Geyser, and I'll be happy to share them if you/anyone else wants, but I'm gonna hold off on sharing since I'd like you or anyone else reading this to come to their own conclusions first, especially since I don't have a solid position yet on the overall debate myself.
 
ElMustacho said:
Why not just suspect/ban Photon Geyser? During the SM meta Psysurge MMY was great, yet the meta could wall it nicely (leave home without Blue Flare? Solgaleo walls you; Moongeist Beam? Shedinja smiles; Fleur Cannon? Yveltal pursuits traps you; Secret sword? Mtar sits on you all day). Psysurge MMX was just high risk high reward, and Deo-A is a suicide mon that is just a bit weaker offensively than MMY, faster, and doesn't care much about imposter (for clear reasons). Was MM2X/Y a problem? No, they are surely forces to be considered when team-building but they were far from being centralizing.
Before USUM even considering a suspect on Psychic Surge was debatable, as it wasn't "too much" for the meta.
But with Photon Geyser MMY basically gains a moveslot, MMX psysurge 2HKOes the meta (and what if MMX was running tinted lens/adaptability and surge comes from support? For example Giratina has chances to get OHKOed by adapt geyser surge with SR up), and yet honestly, is there anybody else that use Photon Geyser (don't even think about Light that Burns the Sky Necrozma Ultra) that would lose actual viability?
Before ending this post, I perfectly realize that Photon Geyser isn't a busted move, but if we removed it, both MM2X/Y and psysurge would return being stable.
Click to expand...

Im not a bh player (well not anymore) but isnt this line of reasoning completely wrong? Ive seen other users above me too saying that theyd rather ban photon geyser just to keep mmx

Doesnt this go against the smogon philosphy?? Its like banning speed boost from every mon in ou to keep blaziken "just cause hes not broken without it", youre essentially decreasing the viability of every other mon that uses it just cause one user is potentially broken

It doesnt matter if mmx and mmy werent broken with it before usum, what matters is theyre potentially broken with it now, you dont just ban a move thats okay on every other psychic because its dumb on two potential users

Idk how does bh goes tho, if it has the idea of having as lil pokemon bans as possible then i guess its okay? Otherwise dont ban a at best a decent option just cause of one dumb user
 
Before I give my opinion on Psychic Surge, let's make it clear that we should separate the cases of independent sets that can function without additional support from the team (such as CB Surge Mmx) from the dependent sets that rely on team members to set them up for success (such as Adapt Mmx). My opinion will also be mostly about Mmx since the usum changes left Mmy mostly unchanged in terms of power and viability.

First, let's have a look at the independent Mmx sets which basically just boils down to Surge + either CB or smash:

- Smash: The only notable improvement is that Mmx can now OHKO unaware Pgre with Photon Geyser at +2, and the other Unaware mons either still wall it if they did before (such as Zygarde-C) or still don't wall it if they didn't (basically most of the conventional Unaware mons fall into this category). Also, keep in mind that Unaware Pgre wasn't really an answer to Smash Mmx even before usum either as it cannot directly switch in without risking getting 2HKOed by CC. So, essentially the only buff that smash Mmx received from usum is the ability to just click smash without having to predict an Unaware Pgre switchin, making an already easy matchup (vs Unaware Pgre) even easier. Looking at this, it doesn't seem like receiving Photon Geyser made this particular set broken or banworthy.

- CB: One of the new sets that emerged directly as a result of usum, CB Surge Mmx was nowhere near as common before as it is currently. But how threatening is this set really? The Conventional "answers" to Mmx are usually Zyg-C, Giratina, and Aegislash (I would list Mega Slowbro here as well, but it isn't nearly as common as the other 3), which are for the most part 2HKOed now thanks to Photon Geyser. Currently, the only sets from the 3 conventional answers that can still wall CB Surge Mmx are PH Zyg-C and to some extent, Prankster Aegislash. However, while this set is no longer really walled by the conventional answers it used to have, this doesn't mean that it doesn't have any answers. New sets such as RegenVest Giratina and Zygarde-C can now safely pivot in to scout for Mmx's move and take full advantage of the fact that both of Mmx's STABs have immunities. A set such as Misty Terrain Giratina can also completely shut this set down. CB Surge Mmx is very similar to gen6 Specs Mega Ray, except for the fact that Mmx has STABs that can easily be taken advantage of and that it still relies on the terrain to function. While on paper, nothing really walls Mmx, in actuality it is completely reliant on the user predicting correctly (and even in that case, the sets I mentioned take the prediction portion out of the picture). I believe that CB Surge Mmx is essentially a weaker version of gen6 Specs Ray that requires prediction to work; and even then there are viable sets that still completely nullify it.

252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete in Psychic Terrain: 309-364 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

Looking at the independent sets as a whole, it seems like they either didn't change too much in terms of power or that they break their old checks at the cost of being checked by newer sets. For these reasons, I think that the independent sets are not really suspectworthy, at least not until the meta catches up and we see some new sets emerge.


Now, let's have a look at the dependent sets, which really boils down to the Adapt set:

Adapt: This set basically removes the prediction portion of the CB Surge set to a good extent (still not entirely) as it is now able to 2HKO non-FC Zygarde sets with CC. It also puts a huge dent into the RegenVest sets I mentioned earlier, which makes it very difficult for them to come back in later after taking a Photon Geyser. The problem with this set however, is that it completely relies on Psychic Terrain in order to properly function. Misty Terrain setters such as Giratina can still completely wall this set by coming in before Mmx shows up. Also, keep in mind that sets like these are supposed to be harder to wall since they are receiving support from the team. An analogy to this set would be something like getting a Shift Gear BP'd to CB Steelworker/TC Kartana (or having a team member set up Grassy Terrain for it), which would arguably make it way scarier than this Mmx set. And even then, there still are viable sets on viable mons that can completely shut this set down (such as the aforementioned Misty Terrain Giratina and most Mega Slowbro sets). For these reasons, I don't think the dependent sets of Mmx are banworthy either.

Now when we look at the Mmx sets as a whole, we can clearly see that none of the sets, whether independent or dependent, seem to be broken or banworthy.

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete in Psychic Terrain: 412-486 (64.7 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As you can see, the Zygarde will not be able to come back in later since another Photon Geyser will KO it, which means that the user will now have to make plays in order to either somehow bring Zygarde-C back in for another Regen recovery before Mmx comes back in, or just sack a mon.

In conclusion, I feel like quite a few posts about this matter are mostly stemming from the classic scenario of "I just lost to this set on ladder, therefore it is broken." I personally think that these new changes in usum, while introducing a powerful threat into the meta, aren't necessarily unhealthy for the meta either. I think with time, the meta will change and some conventional sets will be replaced with others, which again imo isn't a bad thing.
 
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LordHelix said:
Im not a bh player (well not anymore) but isnt this line of reasoning completely wrong? Ive seen other users above me too saying that theyd rather ban photon geyser just to keep mmx

Doesnt this go against the smogon philosphy?? Its like banning speed boost from every mon in ou to keep blaziken "just cause hes not broken without it", youre essentially decreasing the viability of every other mon that uses it just cause one user is potentially broken

It doesnt matter if mmx and mmy werent broken with it before usum, what matters is theyre potentially broken with it now, you dont just ban a move thats okay on every other psychic because its dumb on two potential users

Idk how does bh goes tho, if it has the idea of having as lil pokemon bans as possible then i guess its okay? Otherwise dont ban a at best a decent option just cause of one dumb user
Click to expand...

It has. That's literally the first thing underlined in the first post of this thread. My reasoning follows that underlined paragraph.

Regarding morogrim's post, I'd add that MMX carries at least 1 coverage move aside from STAB. The problem is MMX being enough powerful to pick a check and remove it. Giratina is basically 2hkoed by spectral thief. (I'm talking about the band set, I pretend no experience about anything without a band).

252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 248-294 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO.

It might run fur coat but photon geyser exists, and then either adapt or surge will 2HKO. Mysty surge drops dead.

MegaBro isn't enjoying that either.

252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 184-218 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO.

You don't have to see calcs about aegislash at this point right? 2HKOed, obviously. But actually not just 2HKOed;

252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 234-276 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This means that Aegi can't even stall spectral thief by spamming prankster recovery. It still has a 89.1% chance of being 2HKOed, with a shore up factored in.

Zyggy can take some hits, but not forever. MMX might run ice coverage in ice hammer, that actually has small chances of OHKO.
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 548-648 (86.1 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Imposter 3HKOed by Geyser/Spectral thief

MMX doesn't have to click Photon Geyser all the time. The meta flourishes with options that tank it. What Photon Geyser does is giving MMX a deadly sweeping tool once its check are gone, and MMX has the options to bring them down and come back later.

I'm also posting a brainstormed yveltal set that is able to improof surge MMX (at least the one I used up here).

Yveltal @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 244 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Recover
- Whatever
- You
- Like

Speed investment to outspeed mmx after ice hammer. You can live any move twice after SR. Might even decide to trap and remove with 3 free moveslots.
 
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ElMustacho said:
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 248-294 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO.
Click to expand...
As you can read in my post, Giratina was just an example of a Misty Surge setter. Mons such as Zygarde are also good replacements. Your post about Giratina also did absolutely nothing to refute the main example i gave, which was RegenVest.

ElMustacho said:
MegaBro isn't enjoying that either.
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 184-218 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO.
Click to expand...
What Mega Slowbro set exactly do you think I'm referring to here other than FC, Soundproof?

ElMustacho said:
Zyggy can take some hits, but not forever.
Click to expand...
"Zyggy" can reliably wall the CB Surge set actually (as mentioned...) unless if it carries Ice coverage.

ElMustacho said:
Yveltal @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 244 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Recover
- Whatever
- You
- Like
Click to expand...
...Or just run Mega Sableye/Mega Slowbro and be able to also wall Regigigas.
 
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Experienced a break from BH, I recently got back and experimented a little with the element in question: MMX, PsySurge, Photon Geyser and their combination thereof. Several earlier posts in the above discussion seem to be adopting a logic that I cannot agree with so here I am even with relatively low experience atm.

I am neutral on the matter, but I'd like to add to the discussions on some of the luring option MMX can utilize, given the meta will eventually adapt to the benchmark Band Surge MMX set and role compresses in some viable counters to it on most of the teams.

Section 1: Review what can shut it down.

In my first attempt at using Band Surge MMX in late November, I used Misty Surge Zygarde as both an improof and a primary check to the opposing MMX. (It also runs Groud Z for trick immunity and soft check Normalize Gengar)

as imposter proof
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 165-195 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
vs opposing mmx
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 246-291 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

While morogrim mentioned that Misty Surge Giratina could do this role similarly, I would stress that it is not that safe against opposing MMX if Giratina chose to run Griseous Orb for Trick Immunity (which Band set could potentially run for obvious reason).
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 208-246 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
With leftovers, it does this job a little better.
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 208-246 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

In my opinion (or maybe most would agree, I assume), the best way for generic balance team to wall MMX is to utilize the fact that both STABs have an immunity, and both are resisted by Psychic. Therefore, RegenVest Giratina paired with a Solgaleo or a Dark type can make the prediction game heavily in the defender's favor. Same can be said about using RegenVest Zygarde-C with its natural bulk, or RegenVest Cresselia to scout and switch to a teammate with immunity if necessary.

Other mons that can simply wall it with decent bulk and favorable typing includes Poison Heal Zygarde-C, most sets of M-Slowbro (usually Soundproof / FC to do other stuff), prankster Aegislash that can spam prankster recovery to stalls out the Terrian Turns, and Lugia, FC Solgaleo and M-Sableye as gimmicky options that can wall it single-handedly.

TL, DR: To wall the benchmark Band set, you have the following categories of options.
A) Misty Surge Zygarde-C
B) RegenVest Tina/Zygarde-C paired with Solgaleo/Dark type, or RegeVest Cresselia paired with Dark Type
C) PH Zyagarde-C
D) M-Slowbro, Prankster Aegislash
E) Gimmicks like RegenVest/Prankster Lugia, FC Solgaleo, and FC M-Sableye

The scenario involving Smash or Adapt have been mostly covered in monogrim's post above and I don't have anything particular to add other than some detailed listings:

To wall the Band Adapt with PsyTerrain support, you have
A) RegeVest Cresselia paired with Dark Type
B) M-Slowbro

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia in Psychic Terrain: 209-246 (47 - 55.4%)
So scouting with Cress is affordable.

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Misty Surge Giratina takes 55~65 from geyser while Misty Surge Zygarde-C takes 51.5 - 61 from CC so despite that they stop a sweep, they are not that reliable.

Also, another way to deal with band MMX in the current meta is to pressure it offensively with MMY, being faster and can potentially OHKO it with the terrain support it commonly comes together.

------
Section 2: Some luring Options:
As you see, the common reliable means to walling MMX usually take advantage of choice locked STAB that has an immunity. Also, walling smash set usually assumes it being totally physical (Unaware Zygarde-C) So here are several ideas that can take advantage of such mindset.

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Life Orb
Ability: Psychic Surge / Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Low Kick / Close Combat
- Photon Geyser
- Tail Glow
- Spectral Thief ? / Moongeist Beam ?(hard to improof but kills Sableye) / Spore

1) Photon geyser + Tail Glow

Photon geyser can essentially change from physical to special after a tail glow, and also breaks the mold. Utilizing this, a lot of common checks depending on the natural physical bulk can be taken care of. It still breaks through unaware Porge, M-Gyara that it usually breaks through, while at the cost of the speed boost and heavy hitting CC.

+3 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete in Psychic Terrain: 737-867 (115.8 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 409-484 (103.8 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

2) Adaptability + Life Orb / Spore
Very simple idea: as LO Adaptability already hits hard enough against the majority of the meta, under psy-terrain support it can be harder to check it since now it can spam two very powerful STAB freely without the choice lock. Utilizing Spore to further deter RegenVest scouting is also a choice.

After all, luring is very common in BH and a surprise set can usually choose its checks and counters. At the end of the day, the lure sets are not common right now as most teams are still lacking a reliable check to the benchmark set; and even it rises later on, to judge whether MMX, PsySurge, Photon Geyser and their combination thereof, would rely on how much opportunity cost it takes to run such lure, and how drastic the matchup problem it might create. At the moment, the meta needs time to (at least attempt to) adapt to it and I believe it is still early to draw any conclusion.

Edit: [disclaimer, when I wrote this post the above two posts doesn't exist yet lol, took me too long it seems]
 
Well, thinking on it more, and doing a little homework, I think that, whatever the problem is, if there is a problem, it is not Photon Geyser. The possible problem would either lay in Mewtwo(-Mega X) or Psychic Surge/Terrain. Here's why.

1) Photon Geyser is a mere BP 100. This is pretty much the standard base power for common viable offensive moves, with anything in the 90s getting kinda iffy and lower needing really good utility. This is the same base power as Psystrike, meaning special attacking Psychic Types are really no stronger outside of bypassing Unaware for free (which, blegh). Assault Vest simply doesn't care. Physical can bypass Fur Coat now (which, free ability bypass is just bleh as I've made clear too many times). Meanwhile, Core Enforcer, a move with the same power, similar, arguably stronger secondary effect, and more PP, is considered perfectly A-okay to the point I was shot down hard when I asked to discuss it months ago. And it has an abuser in Mega-Ray who has similar power to the Mewtwos.

2) Stronger moves exist and are largely considered okay. Most notably: V-Create. Banning it was brought up a couple of times during the Pdon discussions and suspect, but yet we kept it instead, and its been mentioned a few times before. V-Create has notable drawbacks, yes, but that's not stopping your opponents from launching it at your Solgaleos, now is it? Or you guys doing the same to theirs. Also notably is Boomburst, which can be one of five types, has no drawbacks, bypasses substitute, and can get a free ability boost when changing types.

3) Again, Geyser is only BP 100. If things are breaking with a move with that little power, then something else is very very wrong. Psychic Fangs is just a barely passable STAB at BP 85, which is Xtwo's and other physical Psychic attacker's next best option and something it rarely ever ran. In Gen VI, it was saddled with Zen Headbutt of all things, which is why it's not been a potential problem until now. If we later get, I dunno, a Psychic Fusion Bolt clone, we'll right back where we are now, assuming nothing else changes. Well, except we'll get "Oh, just spam Fur Coat on every team" arguments. Yeah, I know we can't make decisions based on future speculation, but it'd be naive to not consider how little banning Photon Geyser could potentially mean. After all, would we ban every BP 100+ physical Psychic move just to keep other elements in the meta?


I dunno what the problem is yet, if there is one, but I'm convinced it's not Photon Geyser.




Also, have you guys given serious thought to Lugia to check Xtwo? It might be a good answer in the short term while the meta sorts itself out. I mean, look at this, it doesn't need Fur Coat to survive in this unrealistic scenario.

+6 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 313-368 (75.2 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It does get shakily 2HKOed by Band Adapt Psy Terrain Geyser, but that's telegraphed enough you should have time to react in some manner. Lugia can run moves like Will-o-Wisp and Knock Off to win without even needing Fur Coat for any common Xtwo move, provided it doesn't switch into a nuke. Once they start running Bolt Strike for Lugia, then you start using Fur Coat.
 
Rumors said:
Well, thinking on it more, and doing a little homework, I think that, whatever the problem is, if there is a problem, it is not Photon Geyser. The possible problem would either lay in Mewtwo(-Mega X) or Psychic Surge/Terrain. Here's why.

1) Photon Geyser is a mere BP 100. This is pretty much the standard base power for common viable offensive moves, with anything in the 90s getting kinda iffy and lower needing really good utility. This is the same base power as Psystrike, meaning special attacking Psychic Types are really no stronger outside of bypassing Unaware for free (which, blegh). Assault Vest simply doesn't care. Physical can bypass Fur Coat now (which, free ability bypass is just bleh as I've made clear too many times). Meanwhile, Core Enforcer, a move with the same power, similar, arguably stronger secondary effect, and more PP, is considered perfectly A-okay to the point I was shot down hard when I asked to discuss it months ago. And it has an abuser in Mega-Ray who has similar power to the Mewtwos.

2) Stronger moves exist and are largely considered okay. Most notably: V-Create. Banning it was brought up a couple of times during the Pdon discussions and suspect, but yet we kept it instead, and its been mentioned a few times before. V-Create has notable drawbacks, yes, but that's not stopping your opponents from launching it at your Solgaleos, now is it? Or you guys doing the same to theirs. Also notably is Boomburst, which can be one of five types, has no drawbacks, bypasses substitute, and can get a free ability boost when changing types.

3) Again, Geyser is only BP 100. If things are breaking with a move with that little power, then something else is very very wrong. Psychic Fangs is just a barely passable STAB at BP 85, which is Xtwo's and other physical Psychic attacker's next best option and something it rarely ever ran. In Gen VI, it was saddled with Zen Headbutt of all things, which is why it's not been a potential problem until now. If we later get, I dunno, a Psychic Fusion Bolt clone, we'll right back where we are now, assuming nothing else changes. Well, except we'll get "Oh, just spam Fur Coat on every team" arguments. Yeah, I know we can't make decisions based on future speculation, but it'd be naive to not consider how little banning Photon Geyser could potentially mean. After all, would we ban every BP 100+ physical Psychic move just to keep other elements in the meta?


I dunno what the problem is yet, if there is one, but I'm convinced it's not Photon Geyser.




Also, have you guys given serious thought to Lugia to check Xtwo? It might be a good answer in the short term while the meta sorts itself out. I mean, look at this, it doesn't need Fur Coat to survive in this unrealistic scenario.

+6 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 313-368 (75.2 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It does get shakily 2HKOed by Band Adapt Psy Terrain Geyser, but that's telegraphed enough you should have time to react in some manner. Lugia can run moves like Will-o-Wisp and Knock Off to win without even needing Fur Coat for any common Xtwo move, provided it doesn't switch into a nuke. Once they start running Bolt Strike for Lugia, then you start using Fur Coat.
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The reason why those Mmx sets are good is indeed directly because of Photon Geyser. The reason is not the 100 BP, but the Mold Breaker effect it has. The reason you never saw the same Mmx set before usum with Psychic Fangs over Photon Geyser is proof of just that. Mmx has a decent typing offensively since Fighting mostly covers the defensive typings that usually wall the Psychic moves (aka Dark and Steel, Psychic does however resist both Fighting and Psychic but isn't really the ideal defensive typing), but it always struggled against the likes of FC Giratina and Zygarde since having a STAB that hits those mons neutrally isn't enough to break them. That is until, Photon Geyser came along. Thanks to Surge, Photon Geyser has an effective BP of 150 which is close to the BP of V-create and can now 2HKO even Giratina and Zygarde (because of the Mold Breaker effect).

This is also why Mmy's status hasn't changed much while Mmx has gained so much from Photon Geyser; Mmy already had Psystrike, Psycho Boost, and MgB as reliable moves to run on the Specs set but none of these moves really helped Mmx overcome the big barrier to becoming a good physical wallbreaker, until usum and the introduction of Photon Geyser.
 
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