BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[Rumors]

morogrim The 15 BP between Psychic Fangs and Photon Geyser is pretty massive once you start funneling it through multipliers. I mean, if we do Terrain + STAB + Band...

Psychic Fangs effective BP: 85 > 127.5 (+STAB) > 191.25 (+Terrain) > 286.875 (+Band)

Photon: 100 > 150 > 225 > 337.5

Which is a difference of ~50 BP. Which results in stuff like this...

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Psychic Fangs (BP 287) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 112-132 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser (BP 338) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Actual calcs...

252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield in Psychic Terrain: 113-133 (34.8 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield in Psychic Terrain: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Using a layer of spikes to simulate minor residual damage. Could be something U-Turning on it once or twice or whatever, doesn't really matter. Point being, Photon Geyser's BP increase allows it to potentially net notable KO thresholds Psychic Fangs misses, which is why people weren't really using Psychic Fangs.

And just picked Aegis as something that people usually run to self-Imposterproof check Xtwo, so they might use it to answer opposing Xtwo as well.


The Mold Breaker effect IS notable, but I can't think of anything it does relevant besides bypass Fur Coat and Unaware. Which... Moongeist Beam and Sunsteel Strike already do so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Really the main difference there is one of our best attackers in the meta gets the Mold Breaker move, as opposed to ones who are viable but not top tier OR make a big sacrifice to run it (like Gengar not being self-Imposterproof with Moongeist except via Normalize).

I guess if we suspect Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam with Photon Geyser I can get behind it, since they're almost the same thing except different type. (I wouldn't say Photon being special and physical viable is that big of a deal.)

 

[morogrim]

morogrim The 15 BP between Psychic Fangs and Photon Geyser is pretty massive once you start funneling it through multipliers. I mean, if we do Terrain + STAB + Band...

Psychic Fangs effective BP: 85 > 127.5 (+STAB) > 191.25 (+Terrain) > 286.875 (+Band)

Photon: 100 > 150 > 225 > 337.5

Which is a difference of ~50 BP. Which results in stuff like this...

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Psychic Fangs (BP 287) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 112-132 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser (BP 338) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Actual calcs...

252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield in Psychic Terrain: 113-133 (34.8 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield in Psychic Terrain: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Using a layer of spikes to simulate minor residual damage. Could be something U-Turning on it once or twice or whatever, doesn't really matter. Point being, Photon Geyser's BP increase allows it to potentially net notable KO thresholds Psychic Fangs misses, which is why people weren't really using Psychic Fangs.

And just picked Aegis as something that people usually run to self-Imposterproof check Xtwo, so they might use it to answer opposing Xtwo as well.


The Mold Breaker effect IS notable, but I can't think of anything it does relevant besides bypass Fur Coat and Unaware. Which... Moongeist Beam and Sunsteel Strike already do so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Really the main difference there is one of our best attackers in the meta gets the Mold Breaker move, as opposed to ones who are viable but not top tier OR make a big sacrifice to run it (like Gengar not being self-Imposterproof with Moongeist except via Normalize).

I guess if we suspect Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam with Photon Geyser I can get behind it, since they're almost the same thing except different type. (I wouldn't say Photon being special and physical viable is that big of a deal.)

Your initial argument was that the "problem" is not Photon Geyser, I gave you reasons that show it is...what exactly is the point you're trying to get at here? Despite being 15% weaker, I guarantee you if Psychic Fangs had the same Mold Breaker effect, people would still be able to make it work. In fact, Adapt Mmx would still be able to break past Giratina and Zygarde-C even if Photon Geyser had a BP of 85. The 100 BP is just icing on the cake here, but the MVP is the Mold Breaker effect.

The Mold Breaker effect IS notable, but I can't think of anything it does relevant besides bypass Fur Coat and Unaware. Which... Moongeist Beam and Sunsteel Strike already do so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Bypassing FC is the ONLY thing Mmx needed to become a top tier physical wallbreaker why can't you get this...MgB and SSS do not give Mmx the power to 2HKO Gira or Zyg...

 

[Zovrah]

Banning photon is definitely not the way to go.
...
Its like trying to justify banning sunsteel because kart gets steelworker

Just a casual reminder of why I think banning photon is pretty dumb.

 

[Rumors]

morogrim First, Merry Christmas!

But yes, I'm fully aware of the Mold Breaker effect and its power, considering Sunsteel Beam has been around for a while. Thing is... I don't feel it meets ban criteria, at all. Lemme go over this in detail now that I'm not tired from retail bullcrap.


Now, the rest of this post is to the whole "ban Photon Geyser" group, not just Morogrim. So, first.

A banworthy move would be:

• An attack with either no counters, or unreasonably niche or unusable ones e.g. OHKO Moves
• A move (attack or status) that removes the emphasis on skill, planning and/or preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player e.g. Chatter

They would be effective without needing real synergy with the Pokemon itself, its ability, the rest of its moveset, item or any in-game condition

Second: move ban precedents

Sorry if I forgot one, it's late and this is the only private time I have right now since family.

Gen 6 Assist - Primaldon was the primary user, firing off priority V-Creates and other bullcrap, and forced the meta to adapt by... running stuff like Assist-spam Palkias. At the time, you could only reliably answer Assist with counter-Assist, which made the meta completely match-up reliant. You either had the better Assist team or built your team to stop Assist and lost to everything else.

Chatter - Could be slapped on literally every set in the game, across every Pokemon, and it'd be beneficial. Sweepers, wall breakers, walls, support, etc... spamming Chatter was king. Soundproof sets were bypassed by Mold Breaker and Own Tempo was near literally useless. There was almost no reason not to put Chatter on every Pokemon on your team. And two teams spamming Chatter turned into a RNG crapshoot with no skill involved.

Extreme Evoboost - Had the honor of being quick banned because it was a one-click sweep button on everything reasonably offensive.

CFZs - Deo-A was the main abuser, but anything fast and offensive could do it and the meta devolved into "CFZ teams", shaky "anti-CFZ spam teams", and "counter CFZ spam teams that spammed CFZs". It devolved the meta into OHKO near anything without a Sash and included additional fullcrap failsafes like setting up Psy Terrain or doing guaranteed 75% damage to any wall of your choice. Banning only certain CFZs would have just changed the dominant team composition, hence why we kicked them all out. ...plus, I do not want to see that Clangorious move being spammed these days. Eesh... >.>

Rhetorical question: is Photon Geyser on the level of these moves, both in power and spammability?

Three: Arguments for Photon Geyser

Mewtwo X breaks previous checks/counters/most of the meta in two hits with Surge Band or Shell Smash. Giratina is brought up constantly.

Shell Smash is a separate discussion we had previously that's not settled, so not poking that right now. But, is this a problem exclusive to Mewtwo X?

252 Atk Choice Band Steelworker Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 243-288 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO

Well crap, that doesn't even have good sweeper/breaker base attack.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

Well crap, that doesn't even have terrain support.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 234-276 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

Well crap, that's the wrong STAB.

252 Atk Choice Band Scrappy Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 249-294 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Well crap, that's not even a meta ability.

I could go on but, meh, you get the idea. 2HKO stuff with breakers is easy, and I didn't even touch Special sets. Plus, it's strongly worth noting that this is all requiring items and/or abilities. Without all that, what does Mewtwo do?

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 153-180 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO

You decide if that's too much damage.


Photon Geyser bypasses Fur Coat, which is all it needs to be broken on Mewtwo X.

Okay, but, let's assume it doesn't. Would being required to pack Fur Coat on all teams really be a much better situation? You saw how well it worked for Primal Groudon. And you know how it bypassed it with certain moves like... say...

252- SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 202-238 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252- SpA Pixilate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 260-308 (51.5 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah... that's still a thing, unfortunately. Fur Coat isn't doing a lot but forcing a Pokemon to run lure sets again. And here, to be more relevant to the current situation where we assume an adaptation with like Fur Coat Lugia...

252- SpA Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Lugia: 216-256 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

We're still in trouble, especially since this is all itemless!


Also, on the mold breaker effect some more...


Sunsteel Strike and Moongiest Beam are not broken because Mewtwo X can't abuse them as well as it can Photon Geyser.

Okay, I'm trying to be respectful and all here (and apologies if there's any snark, passive aggressiveness, or the like here, it's unintended and probably exists because I'm still peeved at some of the customers I had to deal with), but... since when did Mewtwo X become the sole decider in what moves are ban-worthy and what moves are not? I mean, is it okay for Solgaleo, a Pokemon normally relegated to defensive roles, to be able to 2HKO Fur Coat stuff with a wall breaker set, but not Mewtwo X? (Let's not even talk about Kartana with its actually-really-good-base attack.) That seems like a really weird and arbitrary... uhh... what's the word... distinction? Requirement? ...not sure that's right but... you know what I mean I hope.

Besides, why is Photon Geyser more broken than Sunbeam? The "viable on both physical and special" bit doesn't matter much as already pointed out by several people that special Psychic didn't really benefit much from Photon. I mean, look at the super-effective coverage vs the VR ranking.

Sunsteel- Diancie-M, Xerneas, Audino, T-Tar, Kyu-W, Kyu-B, Aerodactyl-M, Nihilego, Diancie

Moongeist - Ytwo, Giratina, Gengar-M, Xtwo, Solgaleo, Necrozm Dawn, Necrodusk, Necro-Ultra, Aegislash, Deoxys-A, Cress, Deo-S, Lunala, Lugia

Photon - Gengar-M, Venusaur-M

Psychic coverage is absolutely atrocious, has immunities, and common resistance in other Steel and Psychic types (Mewtwo, Solgaleo, Registeel, Celesteela, etc.) There is absolutely, positively no way that Photon Geyser is busted by virtue of the Mold Breaker effect and Sunsteel and Moongeist are perfectly fine. Especially considering all are the same base power, same base accuracy and Sunbeam has twice the PP!

I'll be brutally blunt: argue for all three or don't argue for any.


Did I miss any arguments? Apologies if I did, I skimmed and may have overlooked ones. But... yeah, do you notice a common trend in all of these arguments? Mewtwo-X. Everything's about what Mewtwo-X does with the move. To me, this is all strongly sounding like "Mewtwo-X is broken now, but I don't want to ban it. So, let's ban Photon Geyser instead." It's very reminiscent of the "please don't ban Primaldon, ban V-Create instead" discussions.

I'm hoping I got this out clearly as to why I'm not buying Photon Geyser is suspect worthy on its own. If you still feel like it is, by itself, myself and anyone against the ban currently need to be convinced of three things.

1. It's bannable by the suspect policy.
2. It's on a level comparable to our precedents
3. It's broken on Pokemon besides Mewtwo X.
4. It's broken in a way existing Mold Breaker moves are not.


Now again, if you wanna argue for Photon, Sunsteel, and Moongeist as a whole for the Mold Breaker effect, I could be down with that since I consider the free moldy to be unhealthy for the meta (which, confusingly considering where here now, I was shot down pretty hard when I brought them up months ago). But Photon by itself? Well, I already explained why.

 

[SomeIrish]

I'd like to ask what seems more broken in a vacuum, a MMX or Photon Geyser? While MMX is fast and has a high attack stat it isn't the only Pokemon to have such traits, Rayquaza, Deoxys-Attack, Diancie, and other such strong physical attackers can also do the job. While MMX does have slightly more attack and is faster that doesn't really mean too much as it certainly isn't the fastest and its attack isn't that much higher from the others. Fighting STAB is very helpful against steels that roam the meta but most Pokemon with a relatively high attack stat could OHKO them with V-Create anyways. It can run setup sets but again, pretty much any other relevant physical attacker can as well.

Photon Geyser is a move that can be used physically or specially and breaks through abilities. The second effect benefits physical users much more since it ignores Fur Coat as well. It also gains the benefits from Psychic Terrain. The reason why it differentiates itself from SunGeist is because physical is more desirable because again, ignoring Fur Coat, and unlike Sunsteel Strike, Photon Geyser does not have one of the weakest offensive types in the game. If Sunsteel Strike was some other type that had better type coverage then it could be ban worthy, and while Moongeist has a good offensive type it is also super-effective on most of its most common users leaving them in danger of being KO'd by imposter.

morogrim First, Merry Christmas!

Three: Arguments for Photon Geyser

Mewtwo X breaks previous checks/counters/most of the meta in two hits with Surge Band or Shell Smash. Giratina is brought up constantly.

Shell Smash is a separate discussion we had previously that's not settled, so not poking that right now. But, is this a problem exclusive to Mewtwo X?

1 252 Atk Choice Band Steelworker Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 243-288 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO

Well crap, that doesn't even have good sweeper/breaker base attack.

2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

Well crap, that doesn't even have terrain support.

3 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 234-276 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

Well crap, that's the wrong STAB.

4 252 Atk Choice Band Scrappy Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 249-294 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Well crap, that's not even a meta ability.

I could go on but, meh, you get the idea. 2HKO stuff with breakers is easy, and I didn't even touch Special sets. Plus, it's strongly worth noting that this is all requiring items and/or abilities. Without all that, what does Mewtwo do?

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 153-180 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO

You decide if that's too much damage.


Photon Geyser bypasses Fur Coat, which is all it needs to be broken on Mewtwo X.

Okay, but, let's assume it doesn't. Would being required to pack Fur Coat on all teams really be a much better situation? You saw how well it worked for Primal Groudon. And you know how it bypassed it with certain moves like... say...

252- SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 202-238 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252- SpA Pixilate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 260-308 (51.5 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah... that's still a thing, unfortunately. Fur Coat isn't doing a lot but forcing a Pokemon to run lure sets again. And here, to be more relevant to the current situation where we assume an adaptation with like Fur Coat Lugia...

252- SpA Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Lugia: 216-256 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

We're still in trouble, especially since this is all itemless!


Also, on the mold breaker effect some more...


Sunsteel Strike and Moongiest Beam are not broken because Mewtwo X can't abuse them as well as it can Photon Geyser.

Okay, I'm trying to be respectful and all here (and apologies if there's any snark, passive aggressiveness, or the like here, it's unintended and probably exists because I'm still peeved at some of the customers I had to deal with), but... since when did Mewtwo X become the sole decider in what moves are ban-worthy and what moves are not? I mean, is it okay for Solgaleo, a Pokemon normally relegated to defensive roles, to be able to 2HKO Fur Coat stuff with a wall breaker set, but not Mewtwo X? (Let's not even talk about Kartana with its actually-really-good-base attack.) That seems like a really weird and arbitrary... uhh... what's the word... distinction? Requirement? ...not sure that's right but... you know what I mean I hope.

Besides, why is Photon Geyser more broken than Sunbeam? The "viable on both physical and special" bit doesn't matter much as already pointed out by several people that special Psychic didn't really benefit much from Photon. I mean, look at the super-effective coverage vs the VR ranking.

Sunsteel- Diancie-M, Xerneas, Audino, T-Tar, Kyu-W, Kyu-B, Aerodactyl-M, Nihilego, Diancie

Moongeist - Ytwo, Giratina, Gengar-M, Xtwo, Solgaleo, Necrozm Dawn, Necrodusk, Necro-Ultra, Aegislash, Deoxys-A, Cress, Deo-S, Lunala, Lugia

Photon - Gengar-M, Venusaur-M

Psychic coverage is absolutely atrocious, has immunities, and common resistance in other Steel and Psychic types (Mewtwo, Solgaleo, Registeel, Celesteela, etc.) There is absolutely, positively no way that Photon Geyser is busted by virtue of the Mold Breaker effect and Sunsteel and Moongeist are perfectly fine. Especially considering all are the same base power, same base accuracy and Sunbeam has twice the PP!

I'll be brutally blunt: argue for all three or don't argue for any.


Did I miss any arguments? Apologies if I did, I skimmed and may have overlooked ones. But... yeah, do you notice a common trend in all of these arguments? Mewtwo-X. Everything's about what Mewtwo-X does with the move. To me, this is all strongly sounding like "Mewtwo-X is broken now, but I don't want to ban it. So, let's ban Photon Geyser instead." It's very reminiscent of the "please don't ban Primaldon, ban V-Create instead" discussions.

1 Who would want to be choice locked into a steel move on a relatively slow mon?
2 Who would send in a dragon on a dragon?
3 Who would want to be choice locked into a rock move on an even slower mon?
4 Sarcastic comment on gratuitous calc that doesn't really prove anything

I'd like to see what your opinion on the matter is because while you've been so confident that Photon Geyser isn't an issue and have provided your reasoning why, it seems you haven't given any reason why MMX is the problem. As far as I've read you don't seem to think that there is an issue going on right now so I'd like to see an argument from your side as you seem to be coming from the minority here

 

[Rumors]

Real quick, I just wanna clarify how effective Psychic is as an attacking type vs the others being discussed. Going back over the VR and looking up resists and immunities for the three types, here's the totals for Sunsteel, Moongeist, and Photon. Assuming no overlooks like I did for some of stuff Psychic hits super-effectively last time...

Effectiveness vs the VR

Steel: 9 Weak, 21 Resist, 0 Immune
Weak: Diancie-M, Xerneas, Audino, T-Tar, Kyu-W, Kyu-B, Aerodactyl-M, Nihilego, Diancie
Resist: Kyogre-P, Registeel, Gyarados-M, Solgaleo, Dialga, P.Don, Aegislash, Ferrothorn, Xurkitree, Zekrom, Celesteela, Kartana, Swampert-M, Mega-Ampharos, Slowbro-M, Steelix-M, Greninja-A, Ho-Oh, Blaziken-M, Scizor-M, Reshiram


Ghost: 14 Weak, 5 Resist, 6 Immune
Weak: Ytwo, Giratina, Gengar-M, Xtwo, Solgaleo, Necrozm Dawn, Necrodusk, Necro-Ultra, Aegislash, Deoxys-A, Cress, Deo-S, Lunala, Lugia
Resist: Gyarados-M, T-Tar, Yveltal, Muk-A, Greninja-A
Immune: Slaking, Regigas, Kangaskhan, Audino-M, Arceus, Chansey


Psychic: 5 Weak, 23 Resist, 6 Immune
Weak: Gengar-M, Venusaur-M, Mega-Blaziken, Heracross-M, Pheremosa
Resist: Registeel, Mewtwo-Y, Solgaleo, Dialga, Necrozma-Dusk, Necrozma-Dawn, Necrozma-Ultra, Aegislash, Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-S, Kartana, Cresselia, Lunala, Margearna, Latios-M, Latias-M, Slowbro-M, Steelix-M, Lugia, Scizor-M, Stakatatata
Immune: Gyarados-M, T-Tar, Yveltal, Hoopa-U, Muk-A, Greninja-A

Not counted: Sturdy Shedinja and unranked yet potentially viable Pokemon, such as Manectric or Mega-Aggron.

Psychic doesn't even hold a candle to Ghost, so not even going to touch that. Compare to Steel, however... Steel hits more threats, hits more common threats, hits bulkier threats, has zero immunities, an hasd fewer resists. Psychic and Steel share many resists in opposing Steel types. Removing Steel-types from the equation, Steel has 12 resists while Psychic has 11 resists and 6 immunities. So let's be honest here, Psychic is not a great offensive typing in BH on its own and there's a reason why you almost never see it used without STAB.

That aside, now, since you ask for my opinion. Well, I'm in an odd position here since I actually dislike everything being currently discussed right now. So, it's a little hard for me to look at things objectively to determine what's needs to go since I'm really wanting to say "KILL 'EM ALL!"* But suspects do not work like that and we only get one ban every few months typically so, while I think there may be a problem with all this Psychic-related discussion, I'm not sure, objectively speaking, what's the most important. I personally feel that this might not be the most important thing right now (I'd really rather do a Sleep or set-up suspect). Only thing I know that Photon Geyser in a vacuum isn't the problem. If the free Mold Breaker effect is determined to be problematic, I'd want the whole trio suspected, and I'm in favor of that since it ties into my concerns with how potent set-up is right now and also personal concerns I voiced months back about free-mold-breaker attacks and was drowned out by... Stakeout or Pdon, can't remember what suspect happened instead.

Now if you want my purely subjective opinions on Mewtwo, Surge, and so forth, you or anyone else can PM me since I don't want to bog down the suspect thread with points I'm not confident are objectively sound enough to say here. Or if you want more detail on my stance on mold breaker moves since I can probably go into a lot of detail but don't want to risk single-handidly turning the public discussion in that direction unless that's what people want.


*If anyone's curious, there's actually a lot of things I dislike in the meta that I'd argue to not ban, like Imposter.

 

[morogrim]

morogrim First, Merry Christmas!

But yes, I'm fully aware of the Mold Breaker effect and its power, considering Sunsteel Beam has been around for a while. Thing is... I don't feel it meets ban criteria, at all. Lemme go over this in detail now that I'm not tired from retail bullcrap.


Now, the rest of this post is to the whole "ban Photon Geyser" group, not just Morogrim. So, first.

Second: move ban precedents

Sorry if I forgot one, it's late and this is the only private time I have right now since family.

Gen 6 Assist - Primaldon was the primary user, firing off priority V-Creates and other bullcrap, and forced the meta to adapt by... running stuff like Assist-spam Palkias. At the time, you could only reliably answer Assist with counter-Assist, which made the meta completely match-up reliant. You either had the better Assist team or built your team to stop Assist and lost to everything else.

Chatter - Could be slapped on literally every set in the game, across every Pokemon, and it'd be beneficial. Sweepers, wall breakers, walls, support, etc... spamming Chatter was king. Soundproof sets were bypassed by Mold Breaker and Own Tempo was near literally useless. There was almost no reason not to put Chatter on every Pokemon on your team. And two teams spamming Chatter turned into a RNG crapshoot with no skill involved.

Extreme Evoboost - Had the honor of being quick banned because it was a one-click sweep button on everything reasonably offensive.

CFZs - Deo-A was the main abuser, but anything fast and offensive could do it and the meta devolved into "CFZ teams", shaky "anti-CFZ spam teams", and "counter CFZ spam teams that spammed CFZs". It devolved the meta into OHKO near anything without a Sash and included additional fullcrap failsafes like setting up Psy Terrain or doing guaranteed 75% damage to any wall of your choice. Banning only certain CFZs would have just changed the dominant team composition, hence why we kicked them all out. ...plus, I do not want to see that Clangorious move being spammed these days. Eesh... >.>

Rhetorical question: is Photon Geyser on the level of these moves, both in power and spammability?

Three: Arguments for Photon Geyser

Mewtwo X breaks previous checks/counters/most of the meta in two hits with Surge Band or Shell Smash. Giratina is brought up constantly.

Shell Smash is a separate discussion we had previously that's not settled, so not poking that right now. But, is this a problem exclusive to Mewtwo X?

252 Atk Choice Band Steelworker Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 243-288 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO

Well crap, that doesn't even have good sweeper/breaker base attack.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

Well crap, that doesn't even have terrain support.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 234-276 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

Well crap, that's the wrong STAB.

252 Atk Choice Band Scrappy Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 249-294 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Well crap, that's not even a meta ability.

I could go on but, meh, you get the idea. 2HKO stuff with breakers is easy, and I didn't even touch Special sets. Plus, it's strongly worth noting that this is all requiring items and/or abilities. Without all that, what does Mewtwo do?

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 153-180 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO

You decide if that's too much damage.


Photon Geyser bypasses Fur Coat, which is all it needs to be broken on Mewtwo X.

Okay, but, let's assume it doesn't. Would being required to pack Fur Coat on all teams really be a much better situation? You saw how well it worked for Primal Groudon. And you know how it bypassed it with certain moves like... say...

252- SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 202-238 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252- SpA Pixilate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 260-308 (51.5 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah... that's still a thing, unfortunately. Fur Coat isn't doing a lot but forcing a Pokemon to run lure sets again. And here, to be more relevant to the current situation where we assume an adaptation with like Fur Coat Lugia...

252- SpA Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Lugia: 216-256 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

We're still in trouble, especially since this is all itemless!


Also, on the mold breaker effect some more...


Sunsteel Strike and Moongiest Beam are not broken because Mewtwo X can't abuse them as well as it can Photon Geyser.

Okay, I'm trying to be respectful and all here (and apologies if there's any snark, passive aggressiveness, or the like here, it's unintended and probably exists because I'm still peeved at some of the customers I had to deal with), but... since when did Mewtwo X become the sole decider in what moves are ban-worthy and what moves are not? I mean, is it okay for Solgaleo, a Pokemon normally relegated to defensive roles, to be able to 2HKO Fur Coat stuff with a wall breaker set, but not Mewtwo X? (Let's not even talk about Kartana with its actually-really-good-base attack.) That seems like a really weird and arbitrary... uhh... what's the word... distinction? Requirement? ...not sure that's right but... you know what I mean I hope.

Besides, why is Photon Geyser more broken than Sunbeam? The "viable on both physical and special" bit doesn't matter much as already pointed out by several people that special Psychic didn't really benefit much from Photon. I mean, look at the super-effective coverage vs the VR ranking.

Sunsteel- Diancie-M, Xerneas, Audino, T-Tar, Kyu-W, Kyu-B, Aerodactyl-M, Nihilego, Diancie

Moongeist - Ytwo, Giratina, Gengar-M, Xtwo, Solgaleo, Necrozm Dawn, Necrodusk, Necro-Ultra, Aegislash, Deoxys-A, Cress, Deo-S, Lunala, Lugia

Photon - Gengar-M, Venusaur-M

Psychic coverage is absolutely atrocious, has immunities, and common resistance in other Steel and Psychic types (Mewtwo, Solgaleo, Registeel, Celesteela, etc.) There is absolutely, positively no way that Photon Geyser is busted by virtue of the Mold Breaker effect and Sunsteel and Moongeist are perfectly fine. Especially considering all are the same base power, same base accuracy and Sunbeam has twice the PP!

I'll be brutally blunt: argue for all three or don't argue for any.


Did I miss any arguments? Apologies if I did, I skimmed and may have overlooked ones. But... yeah, do you notice a common trend in all of these arguments? Mewtwo-X. Everything's about what Mewtwo-X does with the move. To me, this is all strongly sounding like "Mewtwo-X is broken now, but I don't want to ban it. So, let's ban Photon Geyser instead." It's very reminiscent of the "please don't ban Primaldon, ban V-Create instead" discussions.

I'm hoping I got this out clearly as to why I'm not buying Photon Geyser is suspect worthy on its own. If you still feel like it is, by itself, myself and anyone against the ban currently need to be convinced of three things.

1. It's bannable by the suspect policy.
2. It's on a level comparable to our precedents
3. It's broken on Pokemon besides Mewtwo X.
4. It's broken in a way existing Mold Breaker moves are not.


Now again, if you wanna argue for Photon, Sunsteel, and Moongeist as a whole for the Mold Breaker effect, I could be down with that since I consider the free moldy to be unhealthy for the meta (which, confusingly considering where here now, I was shot down pretty hard when I brought them up months ago). But Photon by itself? Well, I already explained why.

Happy holidays to you as well! If you check my initial post, you'll see that I am also against banning Geyser. I just didn't quite see the points in your past few posts which first talked about Geyser not being the issue and then sidetracking the argument to how Photon Geyser wouldn't be a problem if it had 15 less BP. In other words, I don't disagree with your general opinion on the matter, but with the reasoning you used to justify it in those two posts.

 

[Duckymomo Senior]

I'm going to take some time out of my busy schedule in order to address an issue that, in my humble opinion, needs to be discussed. This is of course, the dilemma involving Psychic Surge in combination with Mega Mewtwo X and/or Mega Mewtwo Y, which currently is running absolutely rampant throughout the once peaceful and enjoyable metagame known as BH. The problem here is that a bulky Pokemon such as Zygarde-Complete simply has to come in holding its terrain extender with Psychic Surge and then you have 8 fucking turns of Psychic Terrain. Now I know this theoretically can be countered by using another terrain, but in practice not really. Electric Terrain is just a bad meme and gets destroyed by ground types. I know that it boosts electric blah blah blah, but the only good electric type is Zekrom and very arguably Mega Ampharos. The former being walled completely by Mega Steelix and the latter being really fucking slow. U could also run Xurkitree, but it's pretty slow too so I wouldn't recommend it unless it's Choice Specs Prankster Nature Power, which coincidentally gets stopped by Psychic Surge. Electric Terrain also prevents sleep, but why have that when Misty Terrain prevents all status effects. Speaking of Misty Terrain, why the fuck would anyone ever run this? Comatose is simply better because it lasts the entire battle while Misty Terrain is 5 or 8 turns. The only time Misty Surge could ever have a chance of being viable is if you have Red Orb Groudon, but even then just run Download or Intimidate like a normal person, or better yet, don't use Red Orb Groudon. The last possible counter is Grassy Surge which is all around just terrible. The only viable offensive grass type is Kartana which makes use of better abilities than Grassy Surge as I have so kindly pointed out in my previous post and maybe you could use Mega Sceptile, but it really is just outclassed by Mega Mewtwo Y. The whole Psychic Surge situation is really getting out of hand. I was recently running a team with Terrain Extender Psychic Surge Zygarde-C and 3 Mega Mewtwo Y. One was contrary which is actually op in Psychic Terrain, one was Sheer Force Life Orb which can 2hko anything in the game with one exception, and the third one was Choice Specs Tinted Lens which OHKOs Registeel, a common switchin to Mega Mewtwo Y. Common attempts to counter this strategy are by running various sets on Mega Gyarados or Yveltal. Unfortunately for the plebeians who use those, they are easily countered by Bolt Strike on the Sheer Force Mega Mewtwo Y or Fleur Cannon on the Contrary Mega Mewtwo Y. Another common counter is Sturdy Shedinja, which is easily obliterated by Stealth Rocks or Moongeist Beam. I also encountered someone using a MEGA SABLEYE in a miserable attempt to cteam me after succumbing to my Psychic team several times in a row. They succeeded in vanquishing me once, but then I changed one of my Mega Mewtwo Y's to a Mega Mewtwo X with Fairium Z Play Rough and that was the end of that. Mega Mewtwo X also destroys Registeel with Close Combat as well as Giratina/Shedinja with Photon Geyser. Ice coverage easily deals with Zygarde-C and the only dark types it struggles with are Yveltal and Mega Sableye, both of which get OHKOd by Z Play Rough. It's just eye-opening to me when a strategy is so overpowered that people start using a Pokemon as mediocre as Mega Sableye in order to try and counter it. The Psychic cancer is definitely a problem these days and is really quite hard to defeat. One method is to use imposter, but any competent player will improof their sets which renders that strategy useless. It truly is a strategy to be feared and I am personally astonished that this hasn't been banned yet and Stakeout has for some reason. The Psychic threat is literally as versatile as Primal Groudon considering both of the Mewtwos can be used viciously in Psychic Terrain and can run mixed sets as effectively as Primal Groudon could ( Mmy objectively not quite as good as Mmx when it comes to mixed sets, but it's faster so it's ok). I think the correct thing to do in this dreadful situation is not to ban either one of the Mewtwos, but to ban Psychic Surge itself because that is the source of their power. We will see a significant decrease in the threatening nature of both Mewtwos if Psychic Surge is banned-enough that I believe it will be deemed unnecessary to ban them. However, I urge everyone to take action now, before filth like Mega Sableye becomes prevalent throughout the tier. This isn't something that people are just whining about because they're bad like the case with Comaphaze, Water Bubble, and Magnet Pull/Gengarite. This is a serious predicament like Primal Groudon, Innards Out, and even borderline CFZ level shit. I hope you all realize the severity of the situation. Thank you for reading, and if you are using Mega Sableye all I can say is that you probably shouldn't even bother.

 

[jrm115]

previous post literally scroll up and read it if you want

poorly formatted walls of text feat. the word rape, not understanding wbubble/trapping/comaphazing decisions, misusing words, and continuing to pretend youre the best bh player isnt gonna do the trick. honestly who the fuck defends comaphazing, thats not justifiable. it doesnt add anything substantial to the meta and it required hard counters on every team and nobody liked playing with or against it.

also: psysurge is absolutely very strong, and necessitating mons like msableye is bad for the meta for sure, but i can't really feel justified saying ban/dnb for sure. abuse with, for example, 3 mega mewtwos doesnt feel like it should be the sort of team that wins any real matches, but 1 specsurge mmy on its own is the cornerstone of so many balance teams that removing it feels like it would really unfocus the meta for a while. i'm leaning ban photon geyser to be honest, allowing mmy an extra moveslot since it no longer needs mgb to deal w/ shed as well as letting mmx do random strong things especially with sash-smash also feels off. it doesnt honestly do anything but encourage spam teams/one-shot offensive threats more so than psysurge on its own and thats why imo that should be the thing that goes.

 

[Lcass4919]

wall of text

holy fuck my eyes. what the fuck is this shit. i dont know which gave me the urge to vomit more, your long ass run-on-sentence post or the second to last sentence. im not fucking reading that. shorten it, and remove the pointless opinion garbage you're spewing, we honestly dont give a damn that you dont like certain bans. okay that last part was a bit harsh, but still.

wait a minute weren't you one of the people who attempted to prevent someone from getting to #1....??

ugh...so i got through reading more of it...and after withdrawling the urge to literally do ANYTHING else to benefit my time here, ill actually respond to some of your statements...so get ready...

1) misty terrain is used to deter opposing PHer's from potentially setting up their status, while also providing your team with a 8-turn status deterrent, which considering the love of spore/lovely kiss in the meta, is in fact, a very useful ability to have, and definitely is NOT outclassed by comatose. this should be pretty common knowledge so i have no idea what the hell your talking about.

2)no...no i just cant do it. its too much for me. please fix your sentences so its not a giant wall of text. this is coming from a guy known for posting long ass posts.

also pretty sure a majority of the "higher up community" all agreed that trapping, water bubble, and comaphasing were all uncompetative/centralizing so again, i have no idea what your talking about.

like, i agree with you that something needs to be done about the mewtwos...but holy shit. i cant even take you seriously as a supporter of your opinion.

also we have a thread specifically to call out bans, so no need to do it here please fix this post up then post it there.

 

[E4 Flint]

also we have a thread specifically to call out bans, so no need to do it here please fix this post up then post it there.

Use this thread next time Duckymomo Senior

 

[Ren]

Hey, I'm gonna take some time to respond to your post Duckymomo Senior while also posting some of my own thoughts on Psychic Surge (with proper formatting.) In addition (and I mean no harm when I say this, please attempt to look at it with an open mind) I find that your post has a lot of elitist attitude in it and talks down on a lot of people. Intentionally or not, Water Bubble and co. weren't banned because people were bad, it really was a huge threat and incredibly difficult to counter with its best set. However, this is a discussion on Psychic Surge, so I will save the discussion on Comaphaze and Water Bubble for another time. Let's get into it.

I'm going to take some time out of my busy schedule in order to address an issue that, in my humble opinion, should be discussed. This is of course, the dilemma involving Psychic Surge in combination with Mega Mewtwo X and/or Mega Mewtwo Y, which currently is running absolutely rampant throughout the once peaceful and enjoyable metagame known as BH. The problem here is that a bulky Pokemon such as Zygarde-Complete simply has to come in holding its terrain extender with Psychic Surge and then you have 8 fucking turns of Psychic Terrain. Now I know this theoretically can be countered by using another terrain, but in practice not really. Electric Terrain is just a bad meme and gets destroyed by ground types. I know that it boosts electric blah blah blah, but the only good electric type is Zekrom and very arguably Mega Ampharos. The former being walled completely by Mega Steelix and the latter being really fucking slow. U could also run Xurkitree, but it's pretty slow too so I wouldn't recommend it unless it's Choice Specs Prankster Nature Power, which coincidentally gets stopped by Psychic Surge. Electric Terrain also prevents sleep, but why have that when Misty Terrain prevents all status effects. Speaking of Misty Terrain, why the fuck would anyone ever run this? Comatose is simply better because it lasts the entire battle while Misty Terrain is 5 or 8 turns. The only time Misty Surge could ever have a chance of being viable is if you have Red Orb Groudon, but even then just run Download or Intimidate like a normal person, or better yet, don't use Red Orb Groudon. The last possible counter is Grassy Surge which is all around just terrible. The only viable offensive grass type is Kartana which makes use of better abilities than Grassy Surge as I have so kindly pointed out in my previous post and maybe you could use Mega Sceptile, but it really is just outclassed by Mega Mewtwo Y. The whole Psychic Surge situation is really getting out of hand. I was recently running a team with Terrain Extender Psychic Surge Zygarde-C and 3 Mega Mewtwo Y. One was contrary which is actually op in Psychic Terrain, one was Sheer Force Life Orb which can 2hko anything in the game with one exception, and the third one was Choice Specs Tinted Lens which OHKOs Registeel, a common switchin to Mega Mewtwo Y. Common attempts to counter this strategy are by running various sets on Mega Gyarados or Yveltal. Unfortunately for the plebeians who use those, they are easily countered by Bolt Strike on the Sheer Force Mega Mewtwo Y or Fleur Cannon on the Contrary Mega Mewtwo Y. Another common counter is Sturdy Shedinja, which is easily obliterated by Stealth Rocks or Moongeist Beam. I also encountered someone using a MEGA SABLEYE in a miserable attempt to cteam me after succumbing to my Psychic team several times in a row. They succeeded in vanquishing me once, but then I changed one of my Mega Mewtwo Y's to a Mega Mewtwo X with Fairium Z Play Rough and that was the end of that. Mega Mewtwo X also destroys Registeel with Close Combat as well as Giratina/Shedinja with Photon Geyser. Ice coverage easily deals with Zygarde-C and the only dark types it struggles with are Yveltal and Mega Sableye, both of which get OHKOd by Z Play Rough. It's just eye-opening to me when a strategy is so overpowered that people start using a Pokemon as mediocre as Mega Sableye in order to try and counter it. The Psychic cancer is definitely a problem these days and is really quite hard to defeat. One method is to use imposter, but any competent player will improof their sets which renders that strategy useless. It truly is a strategy to be feared and I am personally astonished that this hasn't been banned yet and Stakeout has for some reason. The Psychic threat is literally as versatile as Primal Groudon considering both of the Mewtwos can be used viciously in Psychic Terrain and can run mixed sets as effectively as Primal Groudon could ( Mmy objectively not quite as good as Mmx when it comes to mixed sets, but it's faster so it's ok). I think the correct thing to do in this dreadful situation is not to ban either one of the Mewtwos, but to ban Psychic Surge itself because that is the source of their power. We will see a significant decrease in the threatening nature of both Mewtwos if Psychic Surge is banned-enough that I believe it will be deemed unnecessary to ban them. However, I urge everyone to take action now, before filth like Mega Sableye becomes prevalent throughout the tier. This isn't something that people are just whining about because they're bad like the case with Comaphaze, Water Bubble, and Magnet Pull/Gengarite. This is a serious predicament like Primal Groudon, Innards Out, and even borderline CFZ level shit. I hope you all realize the severity of the situation. Thank you for reading, and if you are using Mega Sableye all I can say is that you probably shouldn't even bother.

• Terrains in Ducky's Post: Other terrains aren't really bad just because they're more niche. Misty Surge's niche over Comatose is that it prevents status for all grounded members of your team, while Comatose is more exclusive to one Pokemon. While Misty Terrain does have a limited duration, it is also easy to replenish it on the battlefield due to how you activate Misty Terrain on switch-in, which is very useful. This also has the niche of blocking Poison Healers from immediately activating their orb, allowing you to exert pressure on other opponents to not get their Toxic Orb removed while also providing a useful sleep immunity beyond the Spore immunity that Safety Goggles provides. This brings me to another advantage of Misty Terrain over Comatose as well as an advantage overall - It's very easy to run items other than Safety Goggles without worrying too much about your wall getting slept. As for Electric Terrain, I will admit that Electric Terrain teams are mostly memes, but ScarfWynaut managed to make a fairly nice Electric Terrain team featuring dual Zekrom. I encourage you to look at that for an example of a viable Electric Terrain team, and I hope that you acknowledge its viability, regardless of if it's in a minority of good Electric Terrain teams or not. I cannot address your Grassy Surge point as I haven't explored said Terrain, but hopefully your thoughts have changed on the other two terrains or at least you've become more open to changing your mind on them.
• Other (minor) details I'd like to address): No, while Psychic Surge is a powerful force, I do not think it's as powerful as Primal Groudon, CFZs or Innards Out. No, Mega Sableye is not unviable - Photon Geyser was introduced in USUM and it's probably the best check we have to Mega Mewtwo X - If you wish to take credit for someone utilizing it, feel free to do so as it has allowed the meta to develop. However, it was not an attempt to counterteam you, regardless of what you've convinced yourself. You are not difficult enough to play that people are out to counterteam you every single time they meet you on ladder - You are a good ladderer, but regular teams can indeed win against you. Your superiority complex in this post is incredible, and I just wanted to address it - In the future, if you could discuss issues on the thread without sounding elitist, that would be appreciated. Hopefully that wasn't too mean, but many people have complained about it so I'm trying to phrase it in the nicest way possible. Anyways, this isn't a thread for me to ask you to do something, so let's move on!

Gonna dive into some of the things I've heard.

• My thoughts on other terrains: Terrains are a perfectly viable way to remove Psychic Terrain, don't get me wrong on that. The issue is that setters such as Complete Zygarde, Giratina and other non Psychic-resistant Pokemon take a lot from Psycho Boost as well, leaving you having to run Psychic-resistant Pokemon just to check Pokemon that set their own terrain (assuming you want the Pokemon in question to not be holding an Assault Vest). In addition, as Ducky outlined, support isn't incredibly difficult to attain so it's easy to design your terrain abusers to lure common Psychic-resistant Pokemon such as Yveltal, Mega Gyarados, and Registeel if you're into that. However, offensive Psychic Surge setters and abusers can never beat everything, so it's still possible to play around a Psychic Surge Pokemon or abuser by utilizing double switches and pivoting moves to pressure their Imposterproofer and win with Imposter, or even just figuring out its set as you go. Even so, the pressure that this ability puts on your potential switch-ins is incredible and after having run a Psychic Surge based team myself, I can firmly believe that Psychic Surge provides a great advantage assuming your opponent hasn't used a defensive core that hard counters all of your abusers (Not exactly a counter-team though, as I have said that you cannot beat every relevant check to your own Pokemon in the metagame with just one set.)
• Why not ban Mega Mewtwo Y?: While Mega Mewtwo Y is undeniably a good abuser of Psychic Surge, it isn't the issue in my opinion. Its other sets, such as Sheer Force, aren't broken in the slightest and I feel they're actually very manageable. In addition, Psychic Surge has many abusers aside from Mega Mewtwo Y, such as its other forme, Mega Mewtwo X, and the rare Deoxys A. I believe that if Mega Mewtwo Y were to be banned instead of Psychic Surge, it would cause other setters and abusers to rise such as Deoxys-A, Mega Alakazam and potentially even regular Mewtwo if you like your setters bulky.
• Why not ban Mega Mewtwo X?: As with Mega Mewtwo Y, I feel as though it's able to be managed when its other sets are considered. Adaptability, Contrary and lure -ates are all good, but they're not broken I feel. If Mega Mewtwo X were to be banned, honestly I'm not sure what the next physical abuser would be or if there would even be a physical abuser next in line, but banning a Pokemon is generally last resort and I don't feel as though Mega Mewtwo X justifies that kind of action at this point in time.
• Why not ban Photon Geyser?: I'm just going to answer this with less attention than my other points since I feel as though there's not much to be said. Mega Mewtwo X benefits more from Photon Geyser than Mega Mewtwo Y does, since Mega Mewtwo Y has always had Psychic and Psystrike and doesn't gain much from bypassing abilities since most special walls are either naturally specially bulky or use Assault Vest. Mega Mewtwo X uses Photon Geyser well but it's not exactly broken with it, it's just an amazing tool that it gained.
• Why not ban Shell Smash?: Oh my Arceus I've been wanting to address this for so long. Setup isnt't the only way to abuse Psychic Surge, nor is it the only ability that compliments setup. There's three categories of Pokemon with Psychic Surge as their ability in my opinion - Support, wallbreaker, and setup. You all likely have an idea of what the other two do but I'd like to take this moment to say that there's so much diversity in setup - Tail Glow, Quiver Dance, Swords Dance and Shift Gear are all good in their own right and while they don't boost as instantaneously nor do they boost Stored Power as much they're still very good and I can't stress this enough please please PLEASE don't think that Psychic Surge will cease to be a problem if Shell Smash is banned, it's far from being the only good way to abuse it.
• Why not ban Choice Specs?: pls
• Dazzling and Queenly Majesty need bans though!: Yes, they do. I agree. They're uncompetitive as fuck and should just leave. But this isn't a choose one or choose the other type of thing - We can suspect or quickban these two pieces of shit later on, but while the discussion is on Psychic Surge can we please focus on it? It's like we're playing hockey outside and you show up with a soccer ball, it just won't work! Please take time to focus on this and I promise that I will post on Dazzling and Queenly Majesty once this is resolved.
• Psysurge isn't broken: Post on it. I want to see arguments aside from "just play better" and "it's not broken". I'm interested in what the other side has to say and has been trying out to check this versatile threat. I might not agree immediately but that's why this is a discussion thread and not a suspect voter ID thread - We're meant to discuss! Post on it! Don't be lazy and hope that other people will say what you wanna say because "Uhhh there are a LOT of people who aren't pro ban xD just ask THEM!" If you're reading this post and you're not pro-ban (or even if you are, I don't really care) then consider this ME asking YOU and only you your thoughts on Psychic Surge right now. Go ahead - There's a text box at the bottom of this website. Use it. It's for you to use, not to look at. Whatever you post, though, keep it civil, keep it to the metagame and remember that in the end we're all here to have fun.

I think I covered most of what I wanted to say, the actual post was gonna be much bigger than this but w/e. Thanks for reading, hopefully it wasn't an eyesore and yea idk what to say anymore I'm just ranting rn this is why I don't post I'll just hit the post reply button now

 

[pazza]

Wanna ban psysurge? Ban the other surges,Dazzling and Queenly Majesty

. Wanna ban Photo Geyser? Ban sunsteel/moongiest.

Wanna ban shell smash? Ban every set up move.

Wanna ban the mewtwos? Then ban Rayquaza-M and every other mon that has a good bst.

 

[jrm115]

Wanna ban psysurge? Ban the other surges,Dazzling and Queenly Majesty

. Wanna ban Photo Geyser? Ban sunsteel/moongiest.

Wanna ban shell smash? Ban every set up move.

Wanna ban the mewtwos? Then ban Rayquaza-M and every other mon that has a good bst.

im sorry what? this is actually, literally the slippery slope fallacy.
there are differences between psysurge and other aps, in that one boosts some attacks and also provides coverage for a whole team.
there are differences between psysurge and other terrains, in that the others dont provide ridiculous boosts to HO
there are differences between photon geyser and ss/mgb, because steel doesnt have any meta-defining abusers, and photon lets things go mixed much more successfully.
there are differences between smash and other setup, in that smash boosts offenses much more effectively
there are differences between mewtwos and other high bst mons in that only the mewtwos have a terrain that boosts their stab
dont pretend that these differences are negligible, and dont pretend you cant see the differences in how these things play out in actual, real matches.

 

[Duckymomo Senior]

Well I have a lot of people to respond to so I guess I'll get to it. I don't really know what the proper formatting is so I'll just press return when I finish a paragraph.

Lcass4919 I apologize for the lack of formatting in my admittedly lengthy post. I don't understand what's wrong with my second to last sentence, which is "I hope you realize the severity of the situation." I find it amusing that you said you're not going to read my post, but then read the entire thing. You also claimed that nobody wanted to hear my opinions and then proceeded to give your own flawed opinion. You make a fairy decent point about Misty Terrain being viable, but you don't really elaborate on why it's superior to Comatose. Your opinion regarding the bans I mentioned is also retarded. I don't think you know anything about the "higher up community" so I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Overall, your post was so bad that I actually changed my mind about Psychic Surge and now think it should remain unbanned. You need to get your shit together. Anyways, thank you for informing me that this post belongs in another thread. It would have been even more appreciated if you said which thread that is, but I'll take it.

Use this thread next time Duckymomo Senior

My bad. Again, can someone please tell me which thread this is? Thanks.

GL Volkner Thank you for actually including some content about the Mewtwos and Psychic Surge in your post. I'm attempting to look at this with an open mind, but I simply don't see where I had "an elitist attitude" or was "talking down" on anyone in my post. I disagree with your opinion on the banning of Water Bubble and co. but I understand that this is in the past and what's done is done so there's no use in discussing it anymore. I will refrain from mentioning previous bans in future posts when possible. Similar to Lcass4919, you make a point about Misty Terrain that I originally overlooked in that it prevents your entire team from being statused. I still believe that Comatose is the better ability because it lasts for the entire duration of the battle while Misty Surge is a mere 5 or 8 turns. Instead of disregarding Misty Surge as unviable, I will say that it's not nearly as common as Safety Goggles to check status or Core Enforcer to check Poison Heal, thus making it very niche in countering Psychic Surge.

Electric Surge may be put to use by a few competent players as you mentioned, but it's really not prevalent enough to be considered a solid counter to Psychic Surge. The overwhelming majority of people using Electric Terrain are not experienced players and should be easily defeated anyway.

Grassy Terrain is honestly way too uncommon for it to be considered a viable counter to Psychic Terrain.

Maybe I over exaggerated the necessity to ban Psychic Surge by comparing it to Pdon and CFZs, but it definitely is a problem when people run Mega Sableye over Yveltal. Anyway I still don't think I was being very narcissistic I actually dialed it down a notch, but whatever. Thank you for the compliment about my laddering.

 

[Lcass4919]

Well I have a lot of people to respond to so I guess I'll get to it. I don't really know what the proper formatting is so I'll just press return when I finish a paragraph.

Lcass4919 I apologize for the lack of formatting in my admittedly lengthy post. I don't understand what's wrong with my second to last sentence, which is "I hope you realize the severity of the situation." I find it amusing that you said you're not going to read my post, but then read the entire thing. You also claimed that nobody wanted to hear my opinions and then proceeded to give your own flawed opinion. You make a fairy decent point about Misty Terrain being viable, but you don't really elaborate on why it's superior to Comatose. Your opinion regarding the bans I mentioned is also retarded. I don't think you know anything about the "higher up community" so I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Overall, your post was so bad that I actually changed my mind about Psychic Surge and now think it should remain unbanned. You need to get your shit together. Anyways, thank you for informing me that this post belongs in another thread. It would have been even more appreciated if you said which thread that is, but I'll take it.

whoops. sorry, meant the third to last sentence, that was a fault on my part since your wall of china post is so massive its hard to tell where one sentence ends and another begins. i didn't actually read your post, only skimmed through most of it. i genuinely tried too, but its really difficult to read since theres no breaks in your paragraphs. i know this isnt english class, but you should still try to add paragraphs so we dont have to read the entire thing in one go, and give us time to grasp what your saying in each paragraph. since im pretty sure 99% of people will probably skim over most of your details. im not trying to be a dick this time, but this is genuine advice.

i never even stated my opinion other then "i agree with you but i can't stand your post" so clearly your just trying to find counter insults to what i said to you. saying your opinion is shit is not a "flawed opinion" because unlike your opinion on how water bubble, comaphase, and trapping was "only banned by people who cant beat it" my "flawed opinion" is more then likely shared with everyone who supported the ban. which as you can tell, is a 60% majority in the LEAST.

let me explain why comatose does not outclass misty terrain very simply: comatose is for the mon on the field only. misty terrain is to support your team, blocks psychic terrain, and prevents opposing poison healers from getting theirs set up most of the time. sorry for not elaborating on this, i thought you'd know.

and im sorry i forgot to mention that the thread is named "Balanced hackmons suspects and bans thread" i figured it was self explanatory. Flint moved our posts from the other thread to here already.

 

[E4 Flint]

I didn't think I would have to say this, but try to stick to talking about previous, current and potential suspects and bans in this thread (like the name of the thread?), instead of petty stuff like talking about "being cteamed", who's better and more experienced than who and other bad roasts. I'm going to be deleting posts straight up now if there's more of that than actual content in your posts.

 

[cityscapes]

• Psysurge isn't broken: Post on it. I want to see arguments aside from "just play better" and "it's not broken". I'm interested in what the other side has to say and has been trying out to check this versatile threat. I might not agree immediately but that's why this is a discussion thread and not a suspect voter ID thread - We're meant to discuss! Post on it! Don't be lazy and hope that other people will say what you wanna say because "Uhhh there are a LOT of people who aren't pro ban xD just ask THEM!" If you're reading this post and you're not pro-ban (or even if you are, I don't really care) then consider this ME asking YOU and only you your thoughts on Psychic Surge right now. Go ahead - There's a text box at the bottom of this website. Use it. It's for you to use, not to look at. Whatever you post, though, keep it civil, keep it to the metagame and remember that in the end we're all here to have fun.

here we go

The Case for Psychic Surge

Psychic Surge is most certainly one of the strongest offensive tools in Balanced Hackmons, but I feel that it isn't the real problem. Let's take a look at its most controversial users, Mega Mewtwo Y and Mega Mewtwo X, to find out why.

Psychic Surge Choice Specs Mega Mewtwo Y is a common threat in Balanced Hackmons, but it has its share of switchins as well. Stall teams can utilize tons of viable Pokemon, including Fur Coat Chansey, RegenVest users like Giratina and Zygarde-C, and resists like Yveltal and Solgaleo, to effectively prevent Mega Mewtwo Y from accomplishing anything during the match with Psycho Boost. These Pokemon are all reasonable to use outside of simply switching in on Mega Mewtwo Y, with each one being ranked fairly high on the Viability Rankings. It's safe to say that Choice Specs Psychic Surge Mega Mewtwo Y is fairly easy to check with a stall team.

It doesn't do very well against offense, either. Psycho Boost's Special Attack drop can prove disastrous for the Mega Mewtwo Y user, because even if it successfully nabs a KO, it effectively gives a free setup turn for the next Pokemon to come in. Offense teams also carry some Pokemon that can withstand Psycho Boost, like Dark-type Shell Smash users and their own Mega Mewtwo Y, but they do so less to avoid losing to Mega Mewtwo Y than to simply break holes in the opposing team. Psychic Surge Choice Specs Mega Mewtwo Y might get a KO or two against an offensive team, but it isn't broken in the matchup vs. offense.

Balance teams are by far the most prevalent on the Balanced Hackmons ladder, and coincidentally they are also the weakest against Mega Mewtwo Y. Their defensive core of two to four Pokemon almost mandates a psychic resist to avoid losing a Pokemon every time Mega Mewtwo Y comes in. Typically, Steel-types like Registeel and Solgaleo are used, with Pokemon like RegenVest Yveltal also seeing usage. Imposter Chansey is also a notable counter, because unless Mega Mewtwo Y has Knock Off or a teammate with Pursuit, Chansey can avoid the 2HKO from any attack and 2HKO in return.

However, so far only Psycho Boost has been taken into account. Mega Mewtwo Y has three other moveslots that are usually used specifically to take on these Pokemon. Blue Flare, Moongeist Beam, and Volt Switch are examples of these moves, and they make Mega Mewtwo Y much harder to counter. However, it wants to run more moves than it can fit in its set—Psystrike, Knock Off, Volt Switch, Moongeist Beam, Earth Power, Blue Flare, Fleur Cannon, and Switcheroo are all wanted.

Additionally, Psychic Surge Mega Mewtwo Y often runs boosting sets, most commonly Shell Smash, on more offensively based teams. These sets can surprise would-be counters like Imposter Chansey by setting up on the switch and doing huge damage with a boosted attack.

But it would be a lie to say that other wallbreakers don't use similar methods to break down checks. Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza nearly always runs a move like Earth Power or Blue Flare to 2HKO Steel-types. Life Orb Magic Guard Mega Diancie can use Shell Smash on a predicted switch to Solgaleo before OHKOing it with Mind Blown. The usual sets for these Pokemon (specs -ate) have power comparable to Mega Mewtwo Y with better offensive typings. They work by OHKOing or 2HKOing most Pokemon that don't have impressive bulk:

252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Regigigas: 390-459 (91.9 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Regigigas in Psychic Terrain: 517-609 (121.9 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All of these Pokemon-- Pixilate and Magic Guard variants of Mega Diancie, Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza, and Choice Specs Psychic Surge Mega Mewtwo Y-- are effective at breaking balance. The reason why Mega Mewtwo Y in particular sees so much usage is simply because it is the best at it thanks to its power and speed. It doesn't constrain the metagame any more than -ate users because just like when preparing for -ate, all a balance team needs is one of the ~ten resists sprinkled about the viability rankings (this includes Imposter Chansey). Choice Specs Psychic Surge Mega Mewtwo Y is not broken.

Choice Band Psychic Surge Mega Mewtwo X certainly lacks the initial power of Mega Mewtwo Y, only getting OHKOs on foes weak to its STAB moves like Arceus. However, its effective two-move STAB coverage is much harder to prepare for than Mega Mewtwo Y. Dark- and Steel-types, the main checks for Mega Mewtwo Y, are ripped apart by Close Combat, with even Pokemon with resistant secondary typings like Solgaleo getting 2HKO'd. Psychic-types resist both of Mega Mewtwo X's STAB moves, but Choice Band U-turn both deals lots of damage to them and causes them to lose momentum. Even Imposter Chansey can only switch into Photon Geyser once.

People are using extremely suboptimal sets to counter Mega Mewtwo X. Fur Coat variants of Yveltal and Solgaleo are used despite their shakiness against other physical attackers like Choice Band Steelworker Kartana (2HKOs Solgaleo with V-create) and Poison Heal Regigigas (beats both with sleep turns). Even MEGA SABLEYE is seeing use in high levels of play. These Pokemon are all signs of the unreasonable centralization caused by Mega Mewtwo X, and thanks to the basically free moveslot it has (unlike Mega Mewtwo Y, all it needs is Close Combat/Photon Geyser/U-turn), it can take advantage of these switchins with moves like Spikes. Also worth noting is the fact that this set doesn't even need Psychic Surge—other options like Adaptability are just as viable.

Banning Psychic Surge wouldn't fix the problem, and banning Photon Geyser seems like a lazy cop-out to neuter a broken set by banning an element that isn't broken by itself. Therefore, I think that we should ban Mega Mewtwo X.

 

[a loser]

Someone did this before about Pdon but I couldn't find the post again. But here is MMX's splashability shown by viable abilities it can run:

- Psychic Surge: No fakespeed to hurt it and powered up STAB
- Adaptability: Hits hard with boosted STAB
- Tough Claws: Hits hard with boosted contact moves
- Tinted Lens: What resists?
- Refrigerate/other -ates: Why not? Lure in some dragons
- Dazzling/QM: Super annoying and common
- Contrary: Spectral thief bait but still common
- Unburden: Let's max out that large attack
- Magic Guard: Bring back HJK
- Technician: Storm throw calling. (Also, Heart Stamp!)
- Download: Go full mixed
- Mold Breaker: As if adding Photon Geyser isn't enough
- No Guard: Physical and Special sets can run rampant
- Sap Sipper: Not common, but can eat some spores
- Poison Heal: Seen it a couple times, not great, but status immune
- Illusion: Free shots
- Speed Boost: Subpar, but could get momentum over MMY
- Magic Bounce: No thanks, WoW
- Scrappy: Bringing in M-Sableye to counter?
- Trace: Full splashability here. Come in on any offensive mon and you are most likely viable
- Surge Surfer: Let's give him another STAB and outspeed boosts/scarves!

I won't get into other mostly unexplored defensive abilities like Prankster, Regenerator, or Fur Coat, but I'm sure MMX could pull them off to some extent. But Pdon could run pretty much all of these abilities as well and be a force, and of course he is banned. I've seen all of these run on or ran them myself on MMX and they are all successful in their own ways. I thought it was interesting to point out how many abilities can be run on MMX and the similarity it has to Pdon.

All that to say, at the moment I am against banning MMX. While it is very versatile and tough to match up with at certain times, I think its role in the game is too important to eliminate. Without MMX, Steels and Darks would feel much more comfortable countering MMY without having to worry about MMX. The only physical threats remaining in the VR that aren't walled by Steels are M-Heracross, M-Garchomp, Red Orb Don and M-Blaziken, but these all have problems of their own that hold them back in ways that MMX isn't. So to get rid of MMX really does MMY's counters a favor, which in turn hinders MMY, who I think we can agree is not broken and doesn't really need to be hindered.

 

[morogrim]

Someone did this before about Pdon but I couldn't find the post again. But here is MMX's splashability shown by viable abilities it can run:

- Psychic Surge: No fakespeed to hurt it and powered up STAB
- Adaptability: Hits hard with boosted STAB
- Tough Claws: Hits hard with boosted contact moves
- Tinted Lens: What resists?
- Refrigerate/other -ates: Why not? Lure in some dragons
- Dazzling/QM: Super annoying and common
- Contrary: Spectral thief bait but still common
- Unburden: Let's max out that large attack
- Magic Guard: Bring back HJK
- Technician: Storm throw calling. (Also, Heart Stamp!)
- Download: Go full mixed
- Mold Breaker: As if adding Photon Geyser isn't enough
- No Guard: Physical and Special sets can run rampant
- Sap Sipper: Not common, but can eat some spores
- Poison Heal: Seen it a couple times, not great, but status immune
- Illusion: Free shots
- Speed Boost: Subpar, but could get momentum over MMY
- Magic Bounce: No thanks, WoW
- Scrappy: Bringing in M-Sableye to counter?
- Trace: Full splashability here. Come in on any offensive mon and you are most likely viable
- Surge Surfer: Let's give him another STAB and outspeed boosts/scarves!

I won't get into other mostly unexplored defensive abilities like Prankster, Regenerator, or Fur Coat, but I'm sure MMX could pull them off to some extent. But Pdon could run pretty much all of these abilities as well and be a force, and of course he is banned. I've seen all of these run on or ran them myself on MMX and they are all successful in their own ways. I thought it was interesting to point out how many abilities can be run on MMX and the similarity it has to Pdon.

All that to say, at the moment I am against banning MMX. While it is very versatile and tough to match up with at certain times, I think its role in the game is too important to eliminate. Without MMX, Steels and Darks would feel much more comfortable countering MMY without having to worry about MMX. The only physical threats remaining in the VR that aren't walled by Steels are M-Heracross, M-Garchomp, Red Orb Don and M-Blaziken, but these all have problems of their own that hold them back in ways that MMX isn't. So to get rid of MMX really does MMY's counters a favor, which in turn hinders MMY, who I think we can agree is not broken and doesn't really need to be hindered.

Here is the list of "viable" abilities for Mmx that you posted:

- Psychic Surge: Viable
- Adapt: Viable
- TC: Adapt does outclass most of the time since you don't really need much other than your 2 STABs (except for the case of Mega Sableye)
- Tinted: Idk about this one especially since most of the answers to Mmx atm aren't even resists, they are immune (such as Mega Sab and Giratina) or neutral (such as Zygarde-C and Yveltal, although Yveltal is neutral to one STAB and immune to the other). Tinted would only be useful for the rare Mega Slowbro and Cresselia, and useless for the other checks. For that reason, I don't really see the point of Tinted Lens on Mmx. Also, keep in mind that Tinted would be useless for Mega Slowbro as well if it is running FC, which is what most Mega Slowbros run to check Mmx anyway...
- Frig: Viable
- Dazzling/QM: For the most part outclassed by Psychic Surge especially because Surge also gives Mmx a boost to its Psychic STAB
- Contrary: Viable
- Unburden: Viable
- MGuard: Viable
- Tech: Viable
- DL: Never seen anybody use this set, and for good reason. MGuard pretty much outclasses this set because it gets the same 2HKOs that DL gets without missing out on anything. Mmx also doesn't need to rely on getting specific boosts to break certain mons while using MGuard, which is a plus. Additionally, MGuard allows Mmx to run LO without taking any recoil damage, further boosting its damage output.
- Mold Breaker: There is absolutely no point in running Moldy on Mmx when it already runs Geyser (sometimes even in conjunction with other moves with Mold Breaker effects such as Sunsteel and MgB)....literally any other ability would be more useful.
- No Guard: Viable
- Sap Sipper: What...? Just run Safety Goggles if you don't wanna get Spored and save yourself an ability slot
- PH: Viable (kind of) as an offensive check to Regigigas I guess...
- Illusion: Viable
- Speed Boost: First off, Speed Boost only "gets momentum over Mmy" if you run a Protecting move, which already leaves you with 3 moves, causing your Mmx to be more easily walled. Second, if you really want to outspeed stuff like Mmy, just run Sash Smash or similar sets...
- Magic Bounce: I guess this could work on an offense team, but you could also just run Comatose instead to prevent all status instead of just WoW and other status moves that can get bounced.
- Scrappy: Similarly to Tinted, this ability only targets 2 of Mmx's many checks in the meta (Aegislash and Mega Sab) and is useless vs. all others. You need a Choice Band to have a chance at 2HKOing Giratina, and that's if the Giratina isn't running FC.
- Trace: Definitely not viable...most abilities require specific moves in order to take advantage of them. For example, if you copy an -ate, you just copied a useless ability because you aren't running Espeed or Boomburst. If you copied Contrary you are in a similar predicament because you aren't running moves such as Superpower.
- Surge Surfer: Electric coverage doesn't really compliment Mmx's STABs much as there is only 1 Mmx check that is weak to Electric moves which is Mega Slowbro...

Looking at the list, there are only 9 abilities that are actually viable on Mmx (the ones that are listed as "Viable" with nothing else added) and 4 shaky abilities that could be used in very niche situations (TC, QM, PH, and MBounce). This is nowhere near what Pdon had, and for good reason: Pdon is superior to Mmx in its offensive capabilities in pretty much every way except its lower Speed stat and slightly lower Atk stat (which doesn't really matter much at all). Pdon has an excellent dual STAB typing that in addition to having perfect neutral coverage, doesn't have any immunities either (except for the Fire moves which require abilities to become immune to).

 

[Rumors]

Some recent posts about other terrains and stuff made me start to wonder how they stack vs Psychic Terrain. So, I decided to compile a bunch of damage calculations to compare with. Keep in mind, this is not comprehensive data. The following stipulations are made...

• All Pokemon are using neutral natures.
• All attackers are assumed to have their surge/weather starting ability.
• All attackers have a relevant Choice item.
• All attackers use the strongest non-ability-required STAB option (unless I goofed somewhere).
• Secondary effects of the terrain/weather are not considered nor are the secondary effects.
• Non-attacking stats of the attacker and non-defensive stats of the defender are considered.
• Target is only Arceus for consistency and because it's reasonably bulky and neutral to all of these.
• Obviously, resists do less damage and super-effectives do more.
• Physical fire gets a calc for both Flare Blitz and V-Create since the latter is a major outlier in terms of base power, and it shows.
• Weathers are included since they have the same base 50% damage increase.
• Primal Groudon is excluded since it is item locked and therefore can't participate. The next best Pokemon are used instead.
• Psychic Surge only gets the Mewtwos, no Deoxys-A, since they are a topic of being suspected and are the "benchmark" for these numbers.'
• Coverage moves are not considered.
• Coverage on meta walls/threats, whether from STAB or coverage moves, are not considered.

Calculations

Psychic Surge

252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Psychic Terrain: 486-573 (109.4 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Psychic Terrain: 340-402 (76.5 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Grassy Surge

252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Grassy Terrain: 360-424 (81 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Grassy Terrain: 394-465 (88.7 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Electric Surge

252 SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Electric Terrain: 348-411 (78.3 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Electric Terrain: 370-436 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drizzle/Primordial Sea

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Heavy Rain: 490-577 (110.3 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gyarados-Mega Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Rain: 291-343 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drought/Desolate Land

252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard-Mega-Y Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Sun: 447-526 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Sun: 358-423 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Sun: 538-634 (121.1 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These calculations are not used to support any particular side in the debate, so draw your own conclusions from them. The purpose is to give raw damage comparisons between Psychic Surge and similar abilities to aid everyone in determining whether damage Psychic Surge and/or the Mewtwos provide are too much, if their other qualities are combining too well with their terrain boosted damage, or if there's no problem at all. Obviously, the list is not comprehensive as that would take far more time than I have (I'd want to do the above calcs except to every meta wall with relevant meta abilities and items in the game) and shouldn't be considered a perfect reflection of the current meta (eg, Charizard-Y is not ranked despite having the highest Fire-type special attack in the game). Because of that, narrowing things down to a few points of data should keep things from getting muddy.

 

[ElMustacho]

Some recent posts about other terrains and stuff made me start to wonder how they stack vs Psychic Terrain. So, I decided to compile a bunch of damage calculations to compare with. Keep in mind, this is not comprehensive data. The following stipulations are made...

• All Pokemon are using neutral natures.
• All attackers are assumed to have their surge/weather starting ability.
• All attackers have a relevant Choice item.
• All attackers use the strongest non-ability-required STAB option (unless I goofed somewhere).
• Secondary effects of the terrain/weather are not considered nor are the secondary effects.
• Non-attacking stats of the attacker and non-defensive stats of the defender are considered.
• Target is only Arceus for consistency and because it's reasonably bulky and neutral to all of these.
• Obviously, resists do less damage and super-effectives do more.
• Physical fire gets a calc for both Flare Blitz and V-Create since the latter is a major outlier in terms of base power, and it shows.
• Weathers are included since they have the same base 50% damage increase.
• Primal Groudon is excluded since it is item locked and therefore can't participate. The next best Pokemon are used instead.
• Psychic Surge only gets the Mewtwos, no Deoxys-A, since they are a topic of being suspected and are the "benchmark" for these numbers.'
• Coverage moves are not considered.
• Coverage on meta walls/threats, whether from STAB or coverage moves, are not considered.

Calculations

Psychic Surge

252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Psychic Terrain: 486-573 (109.4 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Psychic Terrain: 340-402 (76.5 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Grassy Surge

252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Grassy Terrain: 360-424 (81 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Grassy Terrain: 394-465 (88.7 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Electric Surge

252 SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Electric Terrain: 348-411 (78.3 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Electric Terrain: 370-436 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drizzle/Primordial Sea

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Heavy Rain: 490-577 (110.3 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gyarados-Mega Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Rain: 291-343 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drought/Desolate Land

252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard-Mega-Y Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Sun: 387-456 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Sun: 358-423 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Sun: 538-634 (121.1 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These calculations are not used to support any particular side in the debate, so draw your own conclusions from them. The purpose is to give raw damage comparisons between Psychic Surge and similar abilities to aid everyone in determining whether damage Psychic Surge and/or the Mewtwos provide are too much, if their other qualities are combining too well with their terrain boosted damage, or if there's no problem at all. Obviously, the list is not comprehensive as that would take far more time than I have (I'd want to do the above calcs except to every meta wall with relevant meta abilities and items in the game) and shouldn't be considered a perfect reflection of the current meta (eg, Charizard-Y is not ranked despite having the highest Fire-type special attack in the game). Because of that, narrowing things down to a few points of data should keep things from getting muddy.

Not going to add something particularly useful but Xurk does more on galvanized boomburst than thunder with terrain.
Also having a teammate setting up terrain/support in general and let another abuse it is much more terrific than just placing the ability on the attacker. Tinted + Terrain, Adapt + Terrain, Rain + Swift Swim all are examples.
Good job by the way.

 

[Champion Leon]

Not going to add something particularly useful but Xurk does more on galvanized boomburst than thunder with terrain.
Also having a teammate setting up terrain/support in general and let another abuse it is much more terrific than just placing the ability on the attacker. Tinted + Terrain, Adapt + Terrain, Rain + Swift Swim all are examples.
Good job by the way.

As Rumors stated:

All attackers use the strongest non-ability-required STAB option (unless I goofed somewhere).

Otherwise Electric Surge would use Galvanize Explosion over Bolt Strike for over double the Base power; or Stored Power over Psycho Boost under Psychic Surge if assumed +6 All stats Baton Passed to the Choiced Attacker.

Other than that only arbitrary technicalities would make a change: Hydro Cannon, Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, and Prismatic Laser could be included, tieing or replacing first place. But these are likely not worth listing for obvious reasons.

——

The only flaw is the use of Blue Flare over Eruption/Mind Blown for Charizard Y. Eruption is justifiable because Kyogre is listed with Water Spout.
This is relevant because it turns a Fire Move (Blue Flare) 2HKO into a guaranteed (Eruption/Mind Blown) 1HKO:

252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard-Mega-Y Eruption/Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Sun: 447-526 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Rumors]

Yeah, I kept out team support for simplicity. If I did all that, I'd probably need to run through with every viable ability at the least. Which... would take some time. Though most of them would probably use Adaptability for biggest damage anyway, albeit Xurk is the major exception as it'd prefer Galvanize and Zard-Y might want Aerilate for the other STAB or Magic Guard for Mind Blown.

And yeah, Blue Flare Zard-Y was a mistake. I'll correct it with the right move. I skipped the Hyper Beams because they're not really viable, even if they score a KO.

 

[Duckymomo Senior]

I'll keep this short because my previous posts were accused of being too lengthy.

Mega Mewtwo Y should be banned because Choice Specs Tinted Lens Mega Mewtwo Y Psycho Boost in Psychic Terrain OHKOs Registeel unless it's Assault Vest