BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[Champion Leon]

This is strictly a side note:

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus: 196-232 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 176-208 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 152-179 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- 44.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Plus it is immune to Moongeist Beam.

This makes it then a guaranteed Check/Counter to Non-Life Orb MMY.

Before you say: Unaware Arceus is not common, just bear in mind it is the first set listed in the Setpedia, and after the fix to the glitch that now makes Imposter match your Arceus’ Typing, there will be a greater cause for making Arceus adopt another ability than the now (rather) pointless “Soundproof” set.

Setpedia Set:

Hide

Bulky Anti-Setup
Arceus @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spectral Thief / Haze
- Shore Up
- Entrainment / Core Enforcer / Boomburst
- U-turn

*Due to Sleep Clause I could see Leftovers being used, hence my Calcs, and Timid seems strange for something using Spectral Thief and U-Turn, so I think a +SpD nature suits it better, as it won’t be staying in on a Physical Superpower Contrary anyways and thus won’t need a +Def nature.

Edit: Immunity to Moongeist leans Arceus towards SpD as well so it can handle things like Triage Rayquaza and Quiver Dance Kyogre. Lastly, going slower helps your Core Enforcer as well, such as against a Rayquaza-Mega.

Take a hit, Spectral Thief, Shore Up, Core Enforcer, etc.

This is just a side note to respond to:

But there's no close to reliable Contrary MMY answer, other than a UR mon, Unaware Cresselia and Darmanitan-Zen. That's not great.

Arceus is ranked B+ on the Viability Rankings, and I am surprised no one bothered to include it in the discussion as an Unaware answer until my current post here.

It’s beaten only by Life Orb MMY.
All hail Arceus.

For any Stealth Rocks Calcs:

Hide

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 152-179 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 176-208 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus: 196-232 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So even with Stealth Rocks, it isn’t a guaranteed 2HKO, and it will survive (at Max Damage from both moves) a switch into Stealth Rocks, and V-Create followed by Psycho Boost as 40.3+12.5-6.25=46.55+52.2=98.75% factoring in Leftovers

 

[a loser]

Due to Sleep Clause I could see Leftovers being used, hence my Calcs, and Timid seems strange for something using Spectral Thief and U-Turn, so I think a +SpD nature suits it better, as it won’t be staying in on a Physical Superpower Contrary anyways and thus won’t need a +Def nature.

+Spe is suggested on that set so Arceus can use Entrainment on stuff like Mega Rayquaza and Mega Diancie before they can do anything. You might even catch a neutral nature MMX or Mega Gengar when running +Spe. Leftovers might be tempting, but I think Safety Goggles are valuable even with the clause to match up better against Spore PH Xerneas or Spore Triage Mega Rayquaza.

Unaware Arceus is a great mon and I don't think anyone was discounting it, but it is far from the ideal Contrary MMY check. Without Leftovers, your calcs turn into a chance for a 2HKO and Life Orb cleanly 2HKOs even +SpD Arceus. And like GL Volkner said, “You don't build off the best case scenario for you, you try to build off the worst case scenario for you.” And if you are looking at worst case for Arceus, it does not handle LO MMY and also loses to Contrary MMY with Photon Geyser.

I agree with Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request) that Prankster is pretty much mandatory on any team but I'm not so sure about Prankster Glare. Mainly, I just have never seen it outside of maybe some low ladder games but those normally use Spore instead. Also, like GL Volkner said, if you do Glare MMY what happens next? Something has to eat a +2 move or hope for a full para I guess. Depending on who the Prankster mon is, MMY could have used V-create which makes it more difficult for a slow breaker to take it out.

Contrary MMY is particularly tough on teambuilding due to its speed tier. If you make a balanced offense team with say, MMX and Mega Gengar as your offense, it is totally up to your defensive core to handle MMY and this means it gets multiple chances to get going. Basically, to pressure Contrary MMY offensively you need a faster mon (Mega Beedrill and Pheromosa being ideal thanks to U-turn), priority attacks (which risk running into Dazzling if the set isn't revealed) or Imposter. These things aren't uncommon at all, but they don't fit on every team. If they aren't on the team, MMY has a lot more freedom to start snowballing.

 

[Rumors]

As irritating as Contrary is, and as much as I would not be sad to see it go, I still think that Mold Breaker moves are the problem here. As I've said a few times before, removing them would bring Unaware and Shedinja into more prominent, usable roles, which would in turn curb Contrary and other set-up spammy sets. Removing Contrary itself would be helpful, but I feel it's just targeting a symptom rather than a cause.

If anyone wants me to, I'll go digging for my big long post(s) explaining that line of reasoning in more detail.

 

[Champion Leon]

+Spe is suggested on that set so Arceus can use Entrainment on stuff like Mega Rayquaza and Mega Diancie before they can do anything. You might even catch a neutral nature MMX or Mega Gengar when running +Spe. Leftovers might be tempting, but I think Safety Goggles are valuable even with the clause to match up better against Spore PH Xerneas or Spore Triage Mega Rayquaza.

Unaware Arceus is a great mon and I don't think anyone was discounting it, but it is far from the ideal Contrary MMY check. Without Leftovers, your calcs turn into a chance for a 2HKO and Life Orb cleanly 2HKOs even +SpD Arceus. And like GL Volkner said, “You don't build off the best case scenario for you, you try to build off the worst case scenario for you.” And if you are looking at worst case for Arceus, it does not handle LO MMY and also loses to Contrary MMY with Photon Geyser.

I agree with Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request) that Prankster is pretty much mandatory on any team but I'm not so sure about Prankster Glare. Mainly, I just have never seen it outside of maybe some low ladder games but those normally use Spore instead. Also, like GL Volkner said, if you do Glare MMY what happens next? Something has to eat a +2 move or hope for a full para I guess. Depending on who the Prankster mon is, MMY could have used V-create which makes it more difficult for a slow breaker to take it out.

Contrary MMY is particularly tough on teambuilding due to its speed tier. If you make a balanced offense team with say, MMX and Mega Gengar as your offense, it is totally up to your defensive core to handle MMY and this means it gets multiple chances to get going. Basically, to pressure Contrary MMY offensively you need a faster mon (Mega Beedrill and Pheromosa being ideal thanks to U-turn), priority attacks (which risk running into Dazzling if the set isn't revealed) or Imposter. These things aren't uncommon at all, but they don't fit on every team. If they aren't on the team, MMY has a lot more freedom to start snowballing.

I think the item depends on the rest of the team. If I can bait Spore with another non, especially during a rematch when I know the opponent’s team, I don’t have to use up an item slot.

As for the nature, I do see your point, but you are still taking pretty decent damage from Boomburst, and if they surprise you with a Specs set, that will still threaten Arceus.
Plus they can still Extreme Speed you.

Plus, what reason would you have to stay in against something that won’t boost its stats? If you are referring to Contrary or Triage Rayquaza, they can still threaten you with Superpower and Draco Meteor for the first time, athough with Triage you do benefit from preventing them from going first, although you still don’t really mind going second because the damage won’t be significant due to Unaware, but I guess using Boomburst before they heal off with Oblivion Wing is the selling point.

Still, if I had to choose between something that cannot stop non-Life Orb Contrary MMY and something that can, I can give up the Safety Goggles and use Leftovers with a bait (or Misty Terrain support), and use a +SpD nature since Unaware is the main selling point, not just the speed. For me, Sleep clause justifies Leftovers, and the power of a possible Specs Boomburst negates the advantage of going first enough for me to use a +SpD nature. Afterall, it lets it take all SpA better including Kyogre-Primal, and other threats,

 

[motherlove]

As irritating as Contrary is, and as much as I would not be sad to see it go, I still think that Mold Breaker moves are the problem here. As I've said a few times before, removing them would bring Unaware and Shedinja into more prominent, usable roles, which would in turn curb Contrary and other set-up spammy sets.

Moldy moves have little to do with contrary's effectiveness. The crux of contrary is being able to spam 140 base power moves while getting increasingly harder to check, moldy moves provide neither of these two benefits. The supposed added benefit of bypassing unaware has little value for pokemons that 2HKO unaware walls anyway.

 

[Whitephoenixace]

Id say contrary benefitted alot from the additon of fluer cannon this gen if anything. Gyara, yveltal, giratina. They could of all previously run unaware and deal with common unaware sets (though gira had to watch out for draco and gyara for leafstorm). Fluer cannon makes it tougher to deal with contra consistently outside of a flash fire steel (which could be warn down with enough boosts) and the likes of maud.

Now im mostly giving opinion as a man who hasnt touched bh ladder consistently in a while so dont quote me on everything lol. But in short fleur cannon was a big buff for contra this gen.

 

[a loser]

Moldy moves have little to do with contrary's effectiveness. The crux of contrary is being able to spam 140 base power moves while getting increasingly harder to check, moldy moves provide neither of these two benefits. The supposed added benefit of bypassing unaware has little value for pokemons that 2HKO unaware walls anyway.

I've stated it before here but I do think Moldy moves do have a pretty big impact on Contrary's effectiveness this generation. It is the main reason we all went to Yveltal and Mega Gyarados as the Unaware mons so they could eat these moves. If not for these moves, other mons like Cresselia, Lugia, Ho-Oh, and Giratina could also serve as checks to various Contrary users. Not to mention Sturdy Shedinja. Unaware certainly isn't the best answer to Contrary (and I'm not sure what is), but the number of viable Unaware users does increase when Moldy moves are out of the picture. Some calcs below show some of these mons being able to take what Yveltal and Mega Gyarados can't.

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 149-177 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 133-156 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 89.5% chance to 3HKO
(Note that these calcs are slight potential 2HKOs from LO V-create, but maybe that is just a separate issue)

I do agree that Fleur Cannon has played a big part in Contrary's effectiveness too. 2HKOing the current viable Unaware mons almost makes "viable Unaware" an oxymoron.

btw if you use v create mmy can you actually quit mons please thanks

V-create Contrary MMY is a different story though. If you bring speed like Mega Beedrill or Pheromosa to pressure MMY and it gets off a V-create then you better have a plan B.

 

[Greenheroes]

Moldy moves have little to do with contrary's effectiveness. The crux of contrary is being able to spam 140 base power moves while getting increasingly harder to check, moldy moves provide neither of these two benefits. The supposed added benefit of bypassing unaware has little value for pokemons that 2HKO unaware walls anyway.

hit shedinja isn't implied at all

 

[Ren]

I've stated it before here but I do think Moldy moves do have a pretty big impact on Contrary's effectiveness this generation. It is the main reason we all went to Yveltal and Mega Gyarados as the Unaware mons so they could eat these moves. If not for these moves, other mons like Cresselia, Lugia, Ho-Oh, and Giratina could also serve as checks to various Contrary users. Not to mention Sturdy Shedinja. Unaware certainly isn't the best answer to Contrary (and I'm not sure what is), but the number of viable Unaware users does increase when Moldy moves are out of the picture. Some calcs below show some of these mons being able to take what Yveltal and Mega Gyarados can't.

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 149-177 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 133-156 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 89.5% chance to 3HKO
(Note that these calcs are slight potential 2HKOs from LO V-create, but maybe that is just a separate issue)

I do agree that Fleur Cannon has played a big part in Contrary's effectiveness too. 2HKOing the current viable Unaware mons almost makes "viable Unaware" an oxymoron.

V-create Contrary MMY is a different story though. If you bring speed like Mega Beedrill or Pheromosa to pressure MMY and it gets off a V-create then you better have a plan B.

Why are we trying to nerf a broken element rather than banning it entirely? Sure, Cresselia answers once Mold Breaker moves are gone assuming no V-Create, but we don't build off the best case scenario for us, we build off the worst. I think that this is a really really bad hole to fall down, as in trying to nerf something broken by banning an element of it that isn't broken otherwise. Lugia and Shedinja lose after Stealth Rock, not to mention Lugia is honest to God one of the most overrated Pokemon in the tier (and I know most people don't rate it at all, but it's just awful. The fact that it's brought up at all is what makes it overrated. I don't care that L'Oreal says otherwise). And assuming Cresselia does become a reliable answer, what then? You have one reliable answer in Unaware Cresselia, so is it meant to go on every team?

I don't know what broke Contrary, because personally I think that it was already broken to begin with. But trying to nerf an element that's broken to keep it in the meta by banning something that isn't broken otherwise is a whole other can of worms.

As for "btw if you use v create mmy can you actually quit mons please thanks" Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request), you and I both know that V-Create Contrary MMY has a really really solid niche in that it gives most offensive Pokemon that may try to RK it difficulty in doing so due to the added bulk and speed, and it's not even as if V-Create is weak on it's own. It's literally not bad at all.

 

[a loser]

Why are we trying to nerf a broken element rather than banning it entirely? Sure, Cresselia answers once Mold Breaker moves are gone assuming no V-Create, but we don't build off the best case scenario for us, we build off the worst. I think that this is a really really bad hole to fall down, as in trying to nerf something broken by banning an element of it that isn't broken otherwise. Lugia and Shedinja lose after Stealth Rock, not to mention Lugia is honest to God one of the most overrated Pokemon in the tier (and I know most people don't rate it at all, but it's just awful. The fact that it's brought up at all is what makes it overrated. I don't care that L'Oreal says otherwise). And assuming Cresselia does become a reliable answer, what then? You have one reliable answer in Unaware Cresselia, so is it meant to go on every team?

I don't know what broke Contrary, because personally I think that it was already broken to begin with. But trying to nerf an element that's broken to keep it in the meta by banning something that isn't broken otherwise is a whole other can of worms.

As for "btw if you use v create mmy can you actually quit mons please thanks" Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request), you and I both know that V-Create Contrary MMY has a really really solid niche in that it gives most offensive Pokemon that may try to RK it difficulty in doing so due to the added bulk and speed, and it's not even as if V-Create is weak on it's own. It's literally not bad at all.

Oof. I wasn't saying that Moldy moves should be banned. I was just saying they have had an impact on Contrary this generation.

I think Contrary is the sole problem here and that it should be suspected. Moldy moves only make it a little more difficult to deal with but they are not the problem. As for the SL42 quote, I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic and wasn't saying that V-create is a bad idea on MMY. It is a very good option that makes it very difficult to deal with and that's what I was trying to say in my post.

 

[Rumors]

Moldy moves have little to do with contrary's effectiveness. The crux of contrary is being able to spam 140 base power moves while getting increasingly harder to check, moldy moves provide neither of these two benefits. The supposed added benefit of bypassing unaware has little value for pokemons that 2HKO unaware walls anyway.

"Hi, my name is Sturdy Shedinja. I am a professional middle finger to Contrary sets lacking Mold Breaker moves. How can I assist you today?"


Besides, I can tell you from past gens, Unaware used to be a perfectly viable check to most Contrary sets and they didn't really fear the 2HKO. The worst were Gen V Kyu-W, whose pre-nerf Draco Meteor was incredibly hard to wall without a Steel (which was an unviable as Unaware due to V-Create and unviable as Flash Fire due to common Prankster Nature Power users spamming priority Earthquakes) and Primaldon, who probably doesn't need explanation since Primaldon. Cress, for example, is still a fantastic Unaware if the opponent can't bypass its ability and doesn't have super-effective moves.



Really though, the suggestion for Mold Breaker move suspect isn't purely for Contrary. It also affects Simple, every single variant of Shell Smash and Belly Drum, and a lot more. GL's argument of "nerfing broken versus banning entirely" can be flipped entirely if you come from the angle of "set-up is too strong" rather than "Contrary is too strong." Not saying GL is wrong though since, if the goal is to off Contrary specifically and nothing else, then targeting Moldy Moves is the wrong way to do deal with Contrary specifically. But, I do feel Contrary is a symptom of a problem rather than the source.

Either way, question is, are we targeting set-up or are we targeting Contrary? Both overlap but are also distinct as well.


If we opt to target set-up in general, here is an older, still very relevant post I made explaining why moldy moves are problematic in general. (Although, I'll admit in that post, on a claim why Shell Smash was chosen, I neglected speed of set-up.) And here's a lengthy response going into detail on a number of anti-set-up options that flounder because of moldy moves.

If we're targeting Contrary only and nothing else? Well, various posters above said everything I would.

 

[Zovrah]

As for "btw if you use v create mmy can you actually quit mons please thanks" Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request), you and I both know that V-Create Contrary MMY has a really really solid niche in that it gives most offensive Pokemon that may try to RK it difficulty in doing so due to the added bulk and speed, and it's not even as if V-Create is weak on it's own. It's literally not bad at all.

I think you missed the point here, with sl trying to say that v-create mmy is aids to deal with and if you use it you should leave lol

on moldy moves, I think the fact that they arent broken outside nearly any other context other than with set up (and that is highly questionable imo) shows that trying to argue for their being banned is, frankly, stupid. Thats ignoring that discussing this in context with set up in general is off topic and barely relevant. Smash sets arent comparable to contrary.

 

[Greenheroes]

moldy moves on contrary was a thing **before** usum because of contrary MMX that was unable to touch unaware mega audino, now photon geyser replaced it, if you ever see a contrary MMX again. (and most other contraries prefer moongeist because there are more special moves to get boosts so mega audino is the only true viable unaware left)

EDIT: or run none to be improofed by shedinja

 

[E4 Flint]

Comatose and sleep talk was an exceptional case. Comatose has viable used by itself. Sleep Talk has viable uses by itself. There is a specific combination with hazard support, Sleep Talk, WW and then Comatose which is broken. In this case banning each specific element would be too much “damage” on the tier. That’s why we went with the ComaTalk Clause.

This is not something we should repeat or use regularly, and should be considered as a last resort. Based on what was discussed here, it seems like there is at least some opinion that Contrary is broken outright, or the MoldMoves make setup broken outright. Let’s move in that direction instead of applying complex rulings right away.

 

[Ren]

it seems like there is at least some opinion that Contrary is broken outright, or the MoldMoves make setup broken outright. Let’s move in that direction instead of applying complex rulings right away.

If these are the main ideas going around, which they appear to be, then I honestly think this discussion is pretty much over and that there's not much to be said anymore. Contrary and setup are only similar in that they both rely on stat boosts. How you go about them is different entirely. As motherlove said, the main issue Contrary has is that you can spam 140 BP moves and progressively get more difficult to answer. Something he didn't say publicly which I believe is a really really good way of explaining Contrary's issues is that BH as a metagame relies on midgrounds, but with Contrary you're punished for going to your midground, it has to be a hard check. Otherwise it just boosts up and up and eventually it gets out of hand. If you don't have a hard counter to Contrary, you can't really pivot around it effectively, you generally can't go into something that takes two hits and U-Turns out.

Whether setup is broken or not is a different discussion entirely, and this is about Contrary. I've only really seen one person think Contrary isn't broken, everyone else is either on the fence about it or in support of a ban (and if you don't fit into this umbrella, I probably didn't read your post for multiple reasons.) Based on this kind of action, I have to ask what's holding Contrary back from a suspect atm. Is it just more people should voice their concern for Contrary? How many more people need to post?

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

I am so glad that contrary is already being discussed because that is really the only reason I came back here to post.
The issue with contrary, from my perspective at least, is it lacks any hard universal checks and it gives momentum, something almost unheard of in BH. When examining things like stakeout, you could make the argument that yes stakeout had no hard checks, but it is important to note that stakeout did not give momentum. It was very much a pick and kill style of play. This is important because it reflects the overall ethos of BH: setting up the game to place yourself in a position to get 1 kill, then repeating the process. Because of this, despite Stakeout's brokeness, it was still fundamentally counterable. You could pick which mons you lost to it and which mons you kept, and this allowed you to still win against a person running stakeout. I would compare contrary very similarly to stakeout because (assuming a fast mon vs a slow switch in) you take 1x damage from the first attack and 2x from the next (yielding 3x damage (stakeout yields 3x as well, 2x from the switch and 1x when the mon stays in)). In my opinion, this issue of momentum which can make any switch an auto loss is in itself bannable.

When we look at why contrary is such an issue now, while it wasn't previously, a large part of that is due to the absence of priority ate moves due to DQM (a conversation for another time) and full evs that make these ate moves less powerful. You have to remember in gen 6 fast offensive mons were nearly completely unviable without kings shield, but currently, it has been a long long time since I've seen mewtwos running king's. In addition to that, shedinja is no longer a reliable check to contrary. It's my personal opinion that unaware is a fairly garbage check to setup because:

1) when playing on the ladder you need to make sure all of your mons have utility in every single game (which won't happen if they don't run setup)
2) unaware mons require a lot of upkeep because they have no ability like fur coat or regenerator or prankster to help keep them alive so it is very easy to net chip damage on an unaware mon that lets it be killed by unboosted offensive threats
3) They have to take 2 130-140 BP moves on a switchin.
4) Mold Breaker and mold moves exist

Destiny bond is not a reliable solution because ability clause limits abilities to 2 and people running contrary (in low ladder at least) often have 2 along with several other cancerous shell smash/drum mons that you might need to bond.

That leaves Chansey. Chansey is a good check to contrary if you assume that it is a simple 1 v 1. In the case of low ladder, it often is, but again this assumes that your chansey is at full HP and healthy. Anyone running HO has the capacity to damage chansey prior to sending out their contrary mon AND this assumption only works if you assume it is a 1v1. There are a myriad ways that contrary is improofed that makes fighting a team with contrary a losing battle. Chansey can only switching on overheat so many times, and eventually if chansey is overpowered, this will lead to the momentum problem that I discussed earlier, resulting in you losing the game.

I would like to add that in my personal experience, any time I consistently use a team without chansey, regardless of how good it otherwise is, I notice at least a 1% drop in my GXE which is entirely due to contrary or boosting in some form or another. Again this is anecdotal so I don't regard it as evidence or anything, that has just been my experience.

Basically, please ban contrary.

 

[Greenheroes]

I am so glad that contrary is already being discussed because that is really the only reason I came back here to post.
The issue with contrary, from my perspective at least, is it lacks any hard universal checks and it gives momentum, something almost unheard of in BH. When examining things like stakeout, you could make the argument that yes stakeout had no hard checks, but it is important to note that stakeout did not give momentum. It was very much a pick and kill style of play. This is important because it reflects the overall ethos of BH: setting up the game to place yourself in a position to get 1 kill, then repeating the process. Because of this, despite Stakeout's brokeness, it was still fundamentally counterable. You could pick which mons you lost to it and which mons you kept, and this allowed you to still win against a person running stakeout. I would compare contrary very similarly to stakeout because (assuming a fast mon vs a slow switch in) you take 1x damage from the first attack and 2x from the next (yielding 3x damage (stakeout yields 3x as well, 2x from the switch and 1x when the mon stays in)). In my opinion, this issue of momentum which can make any switch an auto loss is in itself bannable.

When we look at why contrary is such an issue now, while it wasn't previously, a large part of that is due to the absence of priority ate moves due to DQM (a conversation for another time) and full evs that make these ate moves less powerful. You have to remember in gen 6 fast offensive mons were nearly completely unviable without kings shield, but currently, it has been a long long time since I've seen mewtwos running king's. In addition to that, shedinja is no longer a reliable check to contrary. It's my personal opinion that unaware is a fairly garbage check to setup because:

1) when playing on the ladder you need to make sure all of your mons have utility in every single game (which won't happen if they don't run setup)
2) unaware mons require a lot of upkeep because they have no ability like fur coat or regenerator or prankster to help keep them alive so it is very easy to net chip damage on an unaware mon that lets it be killed by unboosted offensive threats
3) They have to take 2 130-140 BP moves on a switchin.
4) Mold Breaker and mold moves exist

Destiny bond is not a reliable solution because ability clause limits abilities to 2 and people running contrary (in low ladder at least) often have 2 along with several other cancerous shell smash/drum mons that you might need to bond.

That leaves Chansey. Chansey is a good check to contrary if you assume that it is a simple 1 v 1. In the case of low ladder, it often is, but again this assumes that your chansey is at full HP and healthy. Anyone running HO has the capacity to damage chansey prior to sending out their contrary mon AND this assumption only works if you assume it is a 1v1. There are a myriad ways that contrary is improofed that makes fighting a team with contrary a losing battle. Chansey can only switching on overheat so many times, and eventually if chansey is overpowered, this will lead to the momentum problem that I discussed earlier, resulting in you losing the game.

I would like to add that in my personal experience, any time I consistently use a team without chansey, regardless of how good it otherwise is, I notice at least a 1% drop in my GXE which is entirely due to contrary or boosting in some form or another. Again this is anecdotal so I don't regard it as evidence or anything, that has just been my experience.

Basically, please ban contrary.

I see only one issue about how imposter play around contrary in your statement.
Only the choiced contraries are dangerous for the imposter (scarf or specs, band giving no options to hit the imposter on the switch without giving it def boosts) to outdamage or just land two moves on the imposter while carrying def nerfs without worrying about a tie or the eviolite in case the imposter is also scarfed.
The others suffer from never being able to set up while the imposter is alive in the back, because other moves than draco meteor/leaf storm etc, boost the imposter's def as well, so they lack the power to break through imposter anyway.
I would also add the fact king's shield isn't the most usefull protecting move for fast offensive mons, it's more usefull to break a sash with banefull bunker or spiky shield, even just to see if the opponent's shedinja has the protective pads or not, even killing the shed after you knocked the pads.
Then you have a better way to play around glass cannons like deoxys-attack or simple shell smash users, when using a team not fast enough to move before it unboosted, but with a prankster haze on the back.
Even if there's a sleep clause, sleep isn't dead, not good for king's shield

 

[Champion Leon]

I am so glad that contrary is already being discussed because that is really the only reason I came back here to post.
The issue with contrary, from my perspective at least, is it lacks any hard universal checks and it gives momentum, something almost unheard of in BH. When examining things like stakeout, you could make the argument that yes stakeout had no hard checks, but it is important to note that stakeout did not give momentum. It was very much a pick and kill style of play. This is important because it reflects the overall ethos of BH: setting up the game to place yourself in a position to get 1 kill, then repeating the process. Because of this, despite Stakeout's brokeness, it was still fundamentally counterable. You could pick which mons you lost to it and which mons you kept, and this allowed you to still win against a person running stakeout. I would compare contrary very similarly to stakeout because (assuming a fast mon vs a slow switch in) you take 1x damage from the first attack and 2x from the next (yielding 3x damage (stakeout yields 3x as well, 2x from the switch and 1x when the mon stays in)). In my opinion, this issue of momentum which can make any switch an auto loss is in itself bannable.

When we look at why contrary is such an issue now, while it wasn't previously, a large part of that is due to the absence of priority ate moves due to DQM (a conversation for another time) and full evs that make these ate moves less powerful. You have to remember in gen 6 fast offensive mons were nearly completely unviable without kings shield, but currently, it has been a long long time since I've seen mewtwos running king's. In addition to that, shedinja is no longer a reliable check to contrary. It's my personal opinion that unaware is a fairly garbage check to setup because:

1) when playing on the ladder you need to make sure all of your mons have utility in every single game (which won't happen if they don't run setup)
2) unaware mons require a lot of upkeep because they have no ability like fur coat or regenerator or prankster to help keep them alive so it is very easy to net chip damage on an unaware mon that lets it be killed by unboosted offensive threats
3) They have to take 2 130-140 BP moves on a switchin.
4) Mold Breaker and mold moves exist

Destiny bond is not a reliable solution because ability clause limits abilities to 2 and people running contrary (in low ladder at least) often have 2 along with several other cancerous shell smash/drum mons that you might need to bond.

That leaves Chansey. Chansey is a good check to contrary if you assume that it is a simple 1 v 1. In the case of low ladder, it often is, but again this assumes that your chansey is at full HP and healthy. Anyone running HO has the capacity to damage chansey prior to sending out their contrary mon AND this assumption only works if you assume it is a 1v1. There are a myriad ways that contrary is improofed that makes fighting a team with contrary a losing battle. Chansey can only switching on overheat so many times, and eventually if chansey is overpowered, this will lead to the momentum problem that I discussed earlier, resulting in you losing the game.

I would like to add that in my personal experience, any time I consistently use a team without chansey, regardless of how good it otherwise is, I notice at least a 1% drop in my GXE which is entirely due to contrary or boosting in some form or another. Again this is anecdotal so I don't regard it as evidence or anything, that has just been my experience.

Basically, please ban contrary.

Um, my concern will then be the next best thing: Soul Heart (which gives boosts if anything dies, even if they lose a mon via Hazards, status, Leech Seed, etc. - Moxie and Beast Boost need your hit to be the KO).

MMY can easily use a Smash White Herb Set, and then proceed to KO foes with coverage moves, and get +1 boosts along the way.
Moxie, Beast Boost, and other similar abilities (Download), will be the next best thing for replacing Contrary.

Z-Moves could also see use for gaining that, the same way it worked for Magearna in OU, and Greninja-Ash in OU for its Battle Bond Ability. I could also see Choice moves making huge waves, to ensure enough initial damage. Think of Choice Band Beast Boost (not Moxie in case you are Burned, Sap Strengthed, or King’s Shielded) MMX with Photon Geyser. Suddenly, it won’t have to switch moves for a boost like it would with Superpower.

I think while Contrary is too powerful, it never hurts to prepare for what will easily come to replace it. I.e. will the most Potent sweepers still boost up just fine without Contrary. Is the issue still fixed, especially with Moldy Moves?

Think of Kartana with Moxie- Sunsteel, Filler, Spore, Shift Gear and Life Orb. You now can sleep, set-up, and KO without fear of wasting additional turns for a boosting, and without worrying about Ghosts walling Superpower.

These 4 abilities might be outclassed by Contrary, but Download, Moxie, Beast Boost, and especially Soul-Heart, are not strictly outclassed by Sheer Force, Tough Claws, or even Adaptability.

Contrary to my own belief prior, I find that Contrary is too powerful overall, it’s not easily handled on Special Offense, and while you only need a Ghost to Block Superpower for physical offense boosts, having to stomach mixed sweeping potential from the likes of Fleur Cannon on MMX, means that Ghosts like Giratina are not a safe switch-in. Couple that with Photon Geyser, and not only can MMX bypass Shedinja and Unaware, but it can effectively become a Special Attacker since Photon Geyser’s effect allows it to switch offenses based on the user’s current highest stat.

Overall, there is no limit to what movesets sweepers can carry on their coverage whether it be their typing (Fleur Cannon) or their effect (Photon Geyser).
Glad to know we are suspecting this, as I feel a ban on Contrary is fair, and worthy of consideration.

 

[motherlove]

If soul heart is the next best thing after contrary I think we can rest easy.

Now imposter is a massive issue to contrary, but saying contrary can never setup while its alive is kinda ridiculous.
Impostered Ray takes 70% from a draco, that's not a free switch. In Ray's case the moves clicked are usually either draco or v-create, if imposter switches on v-create then Ray has the speed advantage and can draco. With a teeny tiny bit of chip this is a very workable situation.
Similar with MMX, if you switch on fleur you basically lose your chansey on the next one.
MMY is probably the weakest to contrary in this case, but you're still getting a +2 boost while imposter isn't, so you can hit them with moongeist the next turn.

Imposter is being chipped heavily all the while the contrary user is taking life orb damage and that's it.

calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 86-101 (12.2 - 14.3%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252- SpD Eviolite Chansey: 455-538 (64.7 - 76.5%)
That's potentially a dead imposter if you switch on rocks.

252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 242-286 (34.4 - 40.6%)
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 484-569 (68.8 - 80.9%)
252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X: 280-330 (67.3 - 79.3%)
That's a dead imposter if they switch on fleur canon

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 117-138 (16.6 - 19.6%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 359-424 (50.9 - 60.2%)
252 SpA Chansey Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 206-244 (49.5 - 58.6%)
You're literally a switch on sr away from being in KO range

Also necessary mention to sash contrary on dragons which is far from being a noob strat, that's your contrary check gone and hell you might not even have broken the sash.

As a personal note, offensively checking contrary has been a nightmare on any somewhat offensive team I've ever built. Even a bad/mediocre contrary mon can easily sweep an offensive team just because they have 10 defence boosts up and you can't damage them, it requires one incorrect predict to lose the game. Wanna sack a mon to Ray so you can bring your check, but he decides to click v-create instead of the predicting draco meteor? Well shit son, here goes your check.
On the other hand, contrary also enables offense to some extent so idk how to feel about that. BH pivot game is so boring.


EDIT: Only posting life orb calcs cause I ain't got time for bad sets.

 

[Rumors]

We don't need to worry about the next best thing unless it's extremely similar, that's now how suspects/bans work. Like, if we were going to ban Slaking for whatever reason, then discussing it without including Regigigas would be a bad idea, yeah. But exceptions like that are extremely few and far in-between and the only one I can think of that ever actually came up was Magnet Pull in the Gengarite discussion.

Besides, if we wanna get literal, the most Contrary-like non-Contrary thing would be (Simple) Power-up Punch.

Also, because I forgot to mention it earlier, but obligatory "You guys should really look at X/Ytwo sometime because guess who's at the forefront of abusing the current item of suspicion again!" Don't let this line veer discussion away but, seriously, can we at least talk about these guys sometime in the future after we decide on suspecting Contrary or not? Doesn't need to be next but, you know, someday would be good.

 

[E4 Flint]

Thanks all for the good discussion. As always, when I think of a potential suspect, I try to argue both the up- and downsides of using and facing Contrary, in terms of whether it ought to be banned or not:

Potential Suspect Case: Contrary

Downside (i.e. why Contrary is not so bad)	Upside (a counterpoint if applicable)
Has been previously shown to be limited by moves that reduce stats	These moves have expanded with the beginning of the new gen, specifically with Fleur Cannon. Coverage options can also be used, the most popular of them currently being the "MoldMoves", Photon, Sunsteel and Moongeist, but can also be used in conjunction with Power Trip and Priority.
Unaware usually does a good job facing Contrary. We have been given a new option in ZygC, while Psychic resists usually do well, and both have decent matchup against the "MoldMoves".	Unaware can now be pierced through with the so called "MoldMoves", all of which together have decent coverage. As from upside (1), the pool of Unaware users has been limited as the main mons that can tank the MoldMoves are defeated by +0 Contrary SE moves. Because of these points, Unaware has seen decreased use this gen, meaning that this would fall into "preparing against one thing leads to a worse matchup against other threats"
Spectral Thief can be used effectively to turn the match around against Contrary	This is true, but it is not fair to expect to use Spectral Thief every single turn, and without Unaware, which as was discussed earlier is seeing decreased use, it is often difficult to bring in something with heightened offenses and then survive and use Spectral Thief. And your Spec Thief user has to also think about the play of facing Imposter right afterward. Contrary has the capability of providing "momentum" while staying in.
Tanky mons with Destiny Bond, Haze or Encore can usually do the job of handling Contrary	This is true, however see previous points on the expanded coverage of Contrary, and how it is unreasonable to expect being able to switch in and spam such moves, and also they can just switch out.
Shedinja has proven to be decent against Contrary users	See previous point on MoldMoves
MoldMoves make Contrary broken, it could be easier to handle Contrary if they were not in the tier	It would need to be established that the overall coverage and properties of the MoldMoves make them broken when used with most varieties of setup and in general play. Personally, I think it's difficult to argue this point. Contrary + MoldMoves complex clause is not to be considered, MoldMoves, Contrary even without them has been discussion worthy as the power creep makes the Contrary moves hit harder than they used to, even if we ignore the increases to their stats and treat every hit as +0 or an increase to Speed only.
Imposter usually does a good job in handling the Contrary user. In conjunction with momentum and other generic Regenvest or Tanky Spec Thief users, this is often enough to take down opponent's Contrary users, especially when you factor in the low PP of all the Contrary moves.	This is matchup reliant and often cannot be sustained throughout the match; however, assuming you are taking neutral hits, this is reasonably true, especially in the situation of using Scarf.

I think these were my own personal broad points and you all seem to have covered them all in some way. While I don't know what I personally would select as the outcome, I think there is enough discussion to go with a Contrary Suspect next.

 

[motherlove]

Hi I just wanted to share a few observations I've made about some of the points mentioned above.

Spectral thief is actually incredibly effective because it's super effective against 2/3 common contrary users.
On regenvest mons it's a really effective way of checking contrary, especially paired with core enforcer (typically ran on regenvest pivot and allows you to hit all common contrary SE). Regenvest pivot can afford to be on field as often as possible, hardswitching on your opponent's pivot. If your opponent's contrary is MMY, having kyogre or dialga on field essentially stops them even attempting to setup, as they would be 2HKO. With the combination of Spectral + Core you stop Rayquaza also.
Kyogre can also debateably choose to sacrifice 70% of its health to get a +1 spectral thief off on MMX, which also deters setting up especially if the contra mon wasn't at full health already.

Aside from that more defensive mon or less bulky mon (non-vest) will get 2HKO before they can 2HKO back and despite using thief the opponent will still be left wih a boost. Spectral Thief by itself isn't a contrary check but it can be a good contrary deterent if played well.

I don't think "turning the match around" is particularly true, seems like a very niche case. If you go ino your regenvest mon a turn too late (your opponent already having a boost) then for MMY spectral thief will just damage them but will not be sweep ending or game ending. They'll just attack you with boosts and then finish you off with an unboosted move, getting another boost at the same time, so you sacked a mon to check setup and the opponent is still setup, not very good.
MMX operates differently because it is weak to spectral thief and will commonly use superpower, boosting its attack. So thief can potentially be a good way to check it, but few regenvest pivot actually take boosted superpowers or Photon geyser very well, smt like Zygarde can do it tho.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About prankster haze / dbond.

Haze is particularly inefective against contrary. You either haze before or after they attack, if you have before then they damage you (probably 2hko you) and still get boosts at the end. If you haze after then it might already be too late.
I've played against dbond a few times which is good, but requires a second check in the back. This is not always very easy to do. If you don't kill them, opting to boost yourself further with a move that doesn't kill them and they uturn, they may have accidently forced themselves to sack a mon. Their diancie may not be able to rk a defence boosted contrary mon and they may not have any other mon that can take a boosted hit. They can't hard switch back to the prankster mon and risk it dying either, so they have to sack and hope the same stratagem works better next time.

There's additional cost to this, if your Giratina switches on my MMX's fleur canon, taking 60%, and your next play is to dbond, I can hard switch to another mon that may force it out or just get momentum another way. If you switch out to check my MMX in the future then you still have your giratina at 40%.

Those are tricky situations to naviguate for the person facing contrary. Oftentimes I've found prankster dbond/haze to just prolongate the match but without having much long term stopping power to my contrary sweepers.

calcs

Regenvest vs Contrary

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre-Primal: 140-165 (34.6 - 40.8%)
252 Atk Kyogre-Primal Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 216-256 (51.9 - 61.5%)

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 121-143 (29.9 - 35.3%)
252 Atk Dialga Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 184-218 (44.2 - 52.4%)
+2 252 SpA Dialga Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 253-298 (60.8 - 71.6%)

252+ SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 187-220 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Dialga Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 320-378 (77.2 - 91.3%) That can kill with lo recoil
252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga: 227-268 (56.1 - 66.3%)
Some predicing going on, if they draco and you core they can then kill you with draco/v-create and still force stuff out with a +2 draco. If they v-create and you core they can then kill you with either move (plus you're now super low), if they v-create and you spectral thief you win ez but still need to get a bunch of hp back. If they draco and you core you potentially just kill them.

252+ SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre-Primal: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%)
+2 252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 488-576 (117.8 - 139.1%)
This one is easy you just thief and if you get boosts you attack, don't need to regen that much either.

252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 289-341 (71.5 - 84.4%)
+1 252 Atk Kyogre-Primal Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 260-306 (62.5 - 73.5%)

252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde-Complete: 229-270 (36 - 42.4%)
252 Atk Zygarde-Complete Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 146-172 (35 - 41.3%)
+2 252 SpA Zygarde-Complete Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X: 202-238 (48.5 - 57.2%)
+1 252 Atk Zygarde-Complete Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 214-254 (51.4 - 61%)
If they fleur canon I think Zyg wins the exchange with thief + core + lo recoil. If they superpower then obviously zyg 2HKOs

tldr: Regenvest Ogre is pretty good

 

[cityscapes]

Defense and stall have been running rampant in this meta due to these exact toxic ideologies, and it's beginning to drive people away from the format. Half the ladder is filled with null slots of people who very clearly aren't playing anymore, and the bulk of the remaining playerbase is miserable due to the degenerate mechanics they're forced to play against on a daily basis.

ok i'm not gonna comment on contrary here but this is just a false statement. first of all, stall isn't even that good, and it's not commonly used on ladder either. i would say that only 10-15% of the teams i run into on ladder really qualify as stall, most have at least some offensive pressure on them. and even when i do run into stall, very rarely is it actually built or used in a competent way, so in general it's not that hard to beat.

if we're talking about dead alts on ladder, attributing every one of them to people not liking the meta is quite a stretch. people stop playing games for all sorts of reasons. instead of looking at the people who have stopped playing, look at those who are actively complaining about the meta...and you arrive here, where people who are familiar with the meta think that contrary is overwhelming.

a couple other things:
1) contrary is actually more annoying for offense than for other playstyles as Willdbeast pointed out on discord, it's really annoying to revenge kill especially factoring in v create while balance/stall have the room to run more stable counterplay like fc and unaware chansey, imposter, regenvest, and other unaware users.
2) prank encore registeel might be the worst contrary mmx counter i have ever seen

honestly i would say that if balance/stall is really such a problem in your eyes, then make a post on why and/or how it should be dealt with, instead of just passive aggressively bringing it up when the main point is something else. get replays featuring it and show how easily it is to succeed with it. now that's a post i'd like to see.

 

[ElMustacho]

Some other observations.

First this is no longer gen 6 bh, so stop pretending to find so little differences, those days you could wall forever stuff contrary with shed unless the opponent ran shaky magma storm or rocks were up, which no longer happens mostly because both moldbreaking moves and core getting past Magic Bounce to set said rocks on almost everything.
The problem with Unaware doesn't stop at mold breaking moves, and not even at "coverage 2hkoes you". The biggest problem is and remain that most moves have already a lot power from turn 1; let's gonna slap Unaware on Audino just because mmy never carries anything SE against it. Psycho boost 2hkoes +def and has a 64%-ish roll on +spdef; even a previous pathetic u-turn from registeel brings that to 94% of 2hko. Yes you can say you don't switch that in the hard way, but who you are gonna sack for that to happen? Yeah I picked maud which is kinda unusable right now but it's not different from other unawares; unaware zyg takes minimum 71% (very best scenario) from psycho boost followed by fleur (which is a realistic play and does not assume neither much specialization or prediction), which means it can switch in and do something. What is that supposed to do? Core enforcer: you have to take a +4 move, of which you ignore the boosts but you get killed by having low health. Shore up: if you just stall with heals mmy gets eventually to +6 and actually murders with +6 photon (ohko in every scenario). Spectral thief/haze/topsy; it's the same problem of core, mmy is at +0 but you are dead from being at low hp, if you clicked topsy you still take mmy at +0 because you are ignoring its boosts, you might as well have stopped its sweep but you still lost something. You can crunch other numbers with mmx and mray being the other premier users of contrary and the point still stands; contrary moves are dangerous on turn 1. Haze, core, spectral thief, topsy all only delay the problem (the latter two are pretty good at it, but they are not a definitive answer). Encore prevents shit from hitting the ceiling fan with reasonable consistency only once, because once you predicted mmx clicking superpower and you send in encore giratina the next time doesn't happen again. Dbond is a pyrrhic victory, and can be seen coming if the opponent is smart enough. Perhaps your prank tina also wanted to wall band kartana? Well that's too bad.

Contrary moves are psycho boost, fleur cannon, overheat, leaf storm, super power, close combat, dragon ascent, v-create, hammer arm (bad anyway), ice hammer and draco meteor, in no specific order other than how I remembered them. You can throw stored power trip in the group because of the snowballing, but stored power is overshadowed by psycho boost almost always and power trip is only really relevant if you pair it with v-create/superpower. There's enough of them to pick the stuff you beat and only leave a small amount of sets (one of which is your improof, which isn't even that hard to pull off, especially if you plan contrarians with plated judj in mind). All of the 3 big contrarians have either a not so weird set to break common set better, or have a sightly wtf set that easily beats the stuff usually sent to counter them. MMY with leafstorm goes past any not sap sipper (irrilevant to begin with) ogre, regardless AV or unaware (not both but duh, it's hella bad). Mray 2hkoes regenvesters with physical moves or 2 consecutive draco meteors if they are weak to it. MMX has the common fleur cannon to break trough dragons, but ice hammer is not unheard of to both outspeed rkillers and instantly put a dent on zyg (2hkoed by super power followed by +1 ice hammer, cannot outheal if prankster even if at +0) Also +1 spdef (vcreate / close combat / dragon ascent) mmx lives the bad case scenario (max roll, life orb but not crit) from triage mray and ohkoes with ice hammer; not a bad desperate answer given that fleur needs to start at +2. MMY has just enough atk to threaten 2hkoes on steels with super power, and has v-create anyway to become extremely annoying to rkill. Mray can outplay imposter if it catches it on hard switchin with either draco meteor or ice hammer; draco is usually better, but ice hammer also ensures that you get another hit on imposter by outspeeding (if it's scarf you see it from it taking at least 60%, more depending on nature), you only need a little bit of chip to get the 2hko (rocks almost enough with 92% on ice and 100% on draco, you shouldn't click draco on a speed tie to begin with). They can switch imposter out but that's another turn of momentum given away to the opponent. And imposter is then at half hp.

Absolutely theoretical fixes to "contrary problems" (none of this exists, i'm well aware, just theorycrafing) are: dropping move power to maximum 100 bp (unaware can wall them), complex clause no mold breaking moves on contrary (never gonna happen) and topsy turvy ability (that would be nice, but we won't wait for gen 8 to bring it).

That's all, sorry for the slight wall of text.

Also, preemptive suspect on gen 8 double iron smash serene grace kartana.

Edit grammar

 

[Champion Leon]

motherlove, just as a quick note, Dragon Ascent should be mentioned in the Rayquaza’s Calcs vs RegenVest Kyogre

252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 274-325 (67.8 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So if we add it to the calc we had from your Draco Meteor calc, they can just use Draco Meteor, and then finish off with Dragon Ascent:

252+ SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre-Primal: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%)

Both hits = 100.7% minimum damage roll to 2HKO; Kyogre cannot Check Ray if it packs Dragon Ascent + Draco Meteor.

Same goes for Ice Hammer MMX and Zygarde-Complete
————
As the other Calcs don’t seem to include entry hazards- One other Contrarian check could be RegenVest/Unaware Ho-Oh, as it resists Fleur Cannon, Superpower, Overheat/V-Create, Leaf Storm, etc.
Calcs:

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ho-Oh: 142-169 (34.1 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Ho-Oh Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 216-256 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Ho-Oh Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 194-230 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 2HKO after Life Orb recoil
—————
For MMX vs Unaware Ho-Oh

252 Atk Ho-Oh Beak Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 258-306 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -

It will Burn MMX if it uses Superpower, V-Create, or Ice Hammer, which is a better result than just Spectral Thiefing it, and it will bypass any MMX Defense boosts from Superpower due to having Unaware.

252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ho-Oh: 144-170 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- 59% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 179-212 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, Photon Geyser 2HKOs Ho-Oh, so it just depends on which Psychic move it uses.

252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ho-Oh: 242-285 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
—————
Against Sceptile-Mega, there is no better counter since Kyogre-Primal and Zygarde are each weak to its STAB moves:

252 Atk Ho-Oh Beak Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sceptile-Mega: 312-368 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- OHKO after Life Orb recoil

252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 160-188 (38.4 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ho-Oh: 107-126 (25.7 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

So, it can actually switch into +0 Draco Meteor, and survive the +2 Draco Meteor the following turn. Taking 90.6% Max Damage, KOing with Beak Blast, and switching out to recover via Regenerator they following turn.
————-
Ultra-Necrozma vs Unaware Ho-Oh

252 SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 188-224 (45.1 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

At this point, it can just Recover as Life Orb recoil takes its toll, or eventually use:

252 Atk Ho-Oh Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 158-188 (39.6 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
—————
Unaware Ho-Oh vs Blaziken-Mega

252 Atk Ho-Oh Beak Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Blaziken-Mega: 300-354 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Blaziken-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ho-Oh: 145-171 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just FYI, Unaware also ignores negative defenses stat changes to the foe, so if you used Core Enforcer and then Spectral Thief them after their negative Defenses were taken into account, you deal damage as if they had 0 Defenses.

Lastly, I edited in Blaziken-Mega Calcs Vs Ho-Oh. Beak Blast is seriously underrated for stopping MMX, and Blaziken-Mega. Burning halves Atk faster than Superpower can boost at +1 Attack, and is super Effective.