So basically, there's no problem, the meta is fine, is that what you're saying?
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BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread
- Thread starter E4 Flint
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RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
Face a team with 4 Sashes with 4 Shell Smash, 2 Dazzling and 2 Psychic Surge and you will never disagree with us again.
It is disgusting AF. It requires a dust distance next to no skill. All you have to do is to SPAM Power Trip do your so-called improofing with Innards Out. Yay!
I am seriously considering about running Magic Room because of these cancer teams.
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Guys, he's not arguing that the meta is fine. He's saying that Shell Smash isn't the issue with APS. The post could've been better formatted but the idea is still there.
Also, let's say Shell Smash were to be banned right now - Would Dazzling Majesty still be an issue? Pretty sure it would be. The negation of priority as well as a lack of announcement that the opposing Pokemon has it makes it extremely problematic due to forcing a player to stop and think if FakeSpeeding is the best idea right now (and yeah, you have to think anyways, but having to guess if the opponent has Dazzling/Queenly Majesty is like finding a needle in a haystack.
Also, let's say Shell Smash were to be banned right now - Would Dazzling Majesty still be an issue? Pretty sure it would be. The negation of priority as well as a lack of announcement that the opposing Pokemon has it makes it extremely problematic due to forcing a player to stop and think if FakeSpeeding is the best idea right now (and yeah, you have to think anyways, but having to guess if the opponent has Dazzling/Queenly Majesty is like finding a needle in a haystack.
The idea is not still there thought, it's completely missed. The claim about shell smash doesn't take any priority blocking stuff into account, he's essentially saying that you can easily wall ss regardless (spoilers: you can't). And if you lose to dazzlesmash is because you can't prepare for it by running a bad physically defensive ybird set or w/e.
Look at who missed the point now...
Can somebody explain why there's no species clause in BH?
I just faced a team with six chanseys with all the same nicknames. This caused the following problems:
I just faced a team with six chanseys with all the same nicknames. This caused the following problems:
- Showdown bugged and showed the wrong item and ability for the Chansey currently being in battle, and it also showed sometimes more than 4 moves for the Chansey's moveset in the mouseover.
- Because of that, I didn't know which Chansey had which ability and which Chansey already had its item knocked off.
1. That wasn't a PS bug, it is an intentional mechanic because in a situation like that in-game, you wouldn't know what Pokemon had what moves/abilities.
2. Species clause doesn't exist because this meta has usually not had an issue with people spamming Pokemon. There are also legitimate cases in which you would have several of the same Pokemon (i.e. this team of mind games?).
RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
As we have been discussing, majority of people were not concerned about Psychic Surge as much. It has indications and restricts both players from using priority. Although this turns MMY into somewhat of a threat, it is easily counterplayed by using Solgaleo or Yvetal.
But D / QM? It has no indications, so it will lead both players into serious mind game sometimes, because variants like Deoxys-A runs anti-priority for 99.9% of the time but some gimmicks predict this assumption and run something like Unburden or even Water Bubble, resulting in instant KO of the other team member.
Speaking of Shell Smash, I hear lots of thoughts from SuperSkyLake about how absurb the sudden boost of power is. But who even used it in last Gen when FakeSpeed was everywhere? It will have significantly less viability if it couldn't be paired with Focus Sash or Anti-priority.
A lot of people mentioned that Item Clause is some outbreaking change for OM meta itself. But where I came from was the fact that some teams just spam Shell Smash with Focus Sash so I assumed being able to take any one hit regardless of bulk is inherently bad.
So my overall thought is, people do not make responsible usage of anti-priority, which also saves us from Tail Glow Triage like ElMustacho has mentioned couple pages ago.
Id say
Option 1
or if I were to make more complex option while keeping minimal banlist it will be
Ban combination of Shell Smash and D/QM.
This is not conspiracy.
...I may have a better solution.
Rather than ban Shell Smash or the other choices altogether, just give it the same treatment as Gen 6 -ate limit and restrict Shell Smash so that only one Pokemon may run it per team.
There are two reasons for this other than its plausibility (this is completely possible to incorporate and is not at all complex since it has been done before and successfully). One: This solves virtually every problem with APS. It lowers the abusability of arguably the best boosting move in the game, it limits the amount of APS users to one per team maximum, it enforces better teambuilding to ensure that teams only need to prepare for one of them and replace past teammates with other sets, and it allows the usage of a reasonable (not necessarily balanced) strategy without making it oversaturated. This is only taking to account anti-priority. Outside of this it lowers the amount of hyper-accelerated boosting and uncompetitive sets that Shell Smash allows with other tools like Power Trip/Stored Power, Simple, and Unaware just to name a few. Furthermore, its limit will decrease the obsession of priority seeing that Shell Smash will not nearly be as prevalent as before and will reduce the high power creep of the metagame.
Second, I'm going to be honest and say that none of the above options seem like optimal choices to solve the problem. The aforementioned Item Clause does nothing because some users don't even need Focus Sash (Hi Mega Gengar!) and incorporating that will only put an additional burdening on the metagame. Banning Dazzling/Queenly Majesty is a terrible idea in the same manner that banning Imposter Chansey is; it's a necessary evil that keeps powerful threats such as Triage and -ates in check and removing it will only cause more problems down the road. I agree that Psychic Surge is a bit problematic in that it temporarily negates priority and gives a free boost to users like MMX and Deoxys, but removing that will not solve the problem at hand because Psychic Terrain is temporary and still possible to stall out and they could just switch over to Dazzling/Queenly Majesty anyway, which as I already mentioned is a bad idea to outright ban. This leaves Shell Smash which, by itself, is not really a problem. The problem is the overabuse of a move that creates a scenario that demonizes it more than it deserves. Finally, APS on it's own is a perfectly fair way to play since there are ways to still beat it, but its oversaturation is the key issue of debate.
Instead of eliminating one or more of the normally-fair options that makes a current situation is so cancerous, limiting the options so that the cancer cannot spread any further while enabling viable sets is the best solution. None of the listed suggestions have a fair result that will not grow into another issue in the end. Out of all of the possibilities, limiting Shell Smash is the best way to solve the current problem and allow competitive and creative sets and teams to still be viable and successful.
My choice is Option 6: Limit Shell Smash to one user per team.
Rather than ban Shell Smash or the other choices altogether, just give it the same treatment as Gen 6 -ate limit and restrict Shell Smash so that only one Pokemon may run it per team.
There are two reasons for this other than its plausibility (this is completely possible to incorporate and is not at all complex since it has been done before and successfully). One: This solves virtually every problem with APS. It lowers the abusability of arguably the best boosting move in the game, it limits the amount of APS users to one per team maximum, it enforces better teambuilding to ensure that teams only need to prepare for one of them and replace past teammates with other sets, and it allows the usage of a reasonable (not necessarily balanced) strategy without making it oversaturated. This is only taking to account anti-priority. Outside of this it lowers the amount of hyper-accelerated boosting and uncompetitive sets that Shell Smash allows with other tools like Power Trip/Stored Power, Simple, and Unaware just to name a few. Furthermore, its limit will decrease the obsession of priority seeing that Shell Smash will not nearly be as prevalent as before and will reduce the high power creep of the metagame.
Second, I'm going to be honest and say that none of the above options seem like optimal choices to solve the problem. The aforementioned Item Clause does nothing because some users don't even need Focus Sash (Hi Mega Gengar!) and incorporating that will only put an additional burdening on the metagame. Banning Dazzling/Queenly Majesty is a terrible idea in the same manner that banning Imposter Chansey is; it's a necessary evil that keeps powerful threats such as Triage and -ates in check and removing it will only cause more problems down the road. I agree that Psychic Surge is a bit problematic in that it temporarily negates priority and gives a free boost to users like MMX and Deoxys, but removing that will not solve the problem at hand because Psychic Terrain is temporary and still possible to stall out and they could just switch over to Dazzling/Queenly Majesty anyway, which as I already mentioned is a bad idea to outright ban. This leaves Shell Smash which, by itself, is not really a problem. The problem is the overabuse of a move that creates a scenario that demonizes it more than it deserves. Finally, APS on it's own is a perfectly fair way to play since there are ways to still beat it, but its oversaturation is the key issue of debate.
Instead of eliminating one or more of the normally-fair options that makes a current situation is so cancerous, limiting the options so that the cancer cannot spread any further while enabling viable sets is the best solution. None of the listed suggestions have a fair result that will not grow into another issue in the end. Out of all of the possibilities, limiting Shell Smash is the best way to solve the current problem and allow competitive and creative sets and teams to still be viable and successful.
My choice is Option 6: Limit Shell Smash to one user per team.
And also limit the use of Moongeist Beam and Sunsteel Strike since they ignore Unaware. Yes, Prankster Haze is an alternative, but you have to sacrifice a mon to safely bring in your prankster hazer, while a bulky enough unaware mon like Yveltal or Giratina can usually switch in directly into a shell smash-boosted move (except Power Trip for Giratina, but for Yveltal, Power Trip is no problem) and then remove the shell smash boosts with Spectral Thief, Haze, Heart Swap or just kill the Shell Smasher. But with Moongeist Beam and Sunsteel Strike, Unaware is ignored, doing a lot of damage or killing the Unaware mon.
There I was one day, casually browsing the BH thread, when all of a sudden, imagine my delight to find my favorite argument make an appearance once again.
I definitely saw this before. And if I recall correctly, it was in a section of argumentative tactics we weren't supposed to use. Oh, that's right:
And if our -corrupt leader- isn't a reliable enough source, here's the emphatically worded analogue from the OU forum rules thread, which provides the basis for this doctrine:E4 Flint said:
I do not think that the added comparison to Imposter makes this argumentative faux pas excusable. I'm not really sure how these abilities are similar. Imposter is only as powerful as the tools we give it, which is one of the reasons why our arguments against banning it aren't passed off as the same kind of broken-checks-broken reasoning I just accused you of using. You have complete control over whether you lose to Imposter. This control is something we lack in the case of, to use an unfortunate example of something that happened to be recently, using Fake Out on a low-HP Primal Kyogre only to have it be Dazzling, set up a Substitute, and sweep your team. Obviously, Imposter reveals itself upon switch-in, unlike Dazzling. (Imagine how much trouble we would have if Chansey transformed into you without you being aware of it...) Dazzling isn't even an especially reliable counter to Triage users if they use Shell Smash and carry a non-priority attack like Moongeist Beam anyway. (Sash does not make something a counter.) Even if we allow your flawed reasoning, the argument is tenuous.
I am running out of time to write this post, but I would like to note that this entire section is based on the assumption that your previous point is correct. Also, offensive teams don't really have the luxury of stalling out Psychic Terrain turns, and when the opposing team runs out it can just switch back. Finally, you didn't mention that Psychic Terrain can carry over to other members of the team.
The abilities aren't similar, their primary uses are. Both are used to fend off against degenerate win conditions from being overused. Imposter turns the opponent's setup against them and enforces strategic teambuilding in order to overcome. Dazzling prevents players from spamming priority and treating moves like -ate Extreme Speed or Triage Oblivion Wing as an auto-win button while also hindering the effectiveness of degenerate Prankster sets. Both have the role of keeping mindless tactics that would otherwise become cancer to the tier at bay by doing different things. And, while I do admit that Dazzling is a bit unfair in that it protects it from counterplay, doesn't reveal itself, and can screw over an attacking Pokemon, you could make that exact same argument Water Absorb Primal Groudon. It protects it from a massive weakness, doesn't reveal itself like Desolate Land, and Primal Kyogre's Water Shuriken or Mega Gyarados's Aqua Jet fail and they die in the process. With all of that and what you mentioned, should Water Absorb be banned then?
Also, if something shouldn't be unbanned because it would bring up more problems in the future if banned, I have to ask why Imposter has not and never has been banned before. Imposter is a punishment to those who set up and cannot combat their own sets, which is why it's in the tier to enforce smarter teambuilding rather than go Rambo on everything in sight. In other words, it's allowed for the purpose of making broken concepts not as broken in reality. So...
This is a direct contradiction to this statement. The main reason why Imposter remains in BH is because banning it would have massive ramifications in the tier. It is without exaggeration the necessary evil of the tier. Dazzling can easily be described as the same for different yet similar reasons which is why I am against outright banning it.E4 Flint said:
Okay those are fair points, but say Psychic Terrain did get banned and nothing else: The current problem in still not solved. It's definitely an overpowered ability, but does banning it fix the APS situation? They would just swap over to Dazzling and rarely feel a difference. Even if you banned this, it wouldn't solve the main problem at hand.
I'd say Ban Dazzling/Queenly Majesty is the way to go here. Oh, and before you tell me "Psychic Surge is no different from Dazzling/Queenly Majesty and should go as well," Psychic Surge announces its presence and affects both teams, whereas Razzle Dazzle Majesty is impossible to predict at all. Shell Smash can stay because it can be used without anti-priority abilities, such as that Magic Guard Mega Diancie set motherlove posted, or countered by phazing/Spectral Thief (with or without Baton Pass, depending on whether it can make use of the attacking boosts or not) or Imposter (bad argument, but it's still there).
NidoTheKing against FakeSpeed there are numerous ways to counter that. For example, hit the opposing mon with Giratina's Core Enforcer on the switchin (as long as it isn't Diancie). Or use Rocky Helmet on a defensive mon (in combination with Fur Coat or, if used on a dedicated physical wall, Iron Barbs/Rough Skin) to punish FakeSpeeders with recoil damage while taking very little damage. Then, you can also punish a switch-in with something like toxic/will-o-wisp or Knock-off.
If we have to avoid a complex ban, I'd say a ban on Dazzling Majesty would be the best as Psychic Surge still keeps Triage and -ate in check for a while, but I'd like to bring up again the possibility of a complex ban on Set-up moves with an anti-priority ability again. Yes baton pass is a thing, but I'd still love to see some way for Dazzling to be used as a defensive ability to counter -ates and triage.
NidoTheKing I suggest you read the actual reason why imposter is still in the meta and not try to come up with your own. That ought to make your arguments a bit more robust.
RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
Imposter is the most disgusting shet that requires 0 skill to use. But it is not banned because many strategies have been developed to stop them.
Considering the -ate clause failed to do its job in keeping -ates in check (and, in fact, may be what forced the tier to develop nasty as hell -ate sets), I don't think it's a good precedent to use for any proposal.
RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
While I do not disagree on this, please keep in mind that when we ask or discussing about banning or restricting stuff, E4 Flint is trying to keep the minimal banlist in this metagame.
Maybe we should think about less complex and more concise ban options?
I would go with only banning D/QM and not banning Psychic Surge. My reasoning, similar to others, is that Psychic Terrain is announced, both players are affected by it, and people can switch the terrain to another one if the run Grassy, Misty, or Electric. So I would choose Option 1.
Note: I only hover around 1400 so maybe I am not as aware as better players. If your gonna rip me apart, please be civil about it. :)
Behold, one of the derpest counter sets in existence!
Lul this wont work (Slaking) @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Spectral Thief
- Shift Gear
Note: I only hover around 1400 so maybe I am not as aware as better players. If your gonna rip me apart, please be civil about it. :)
Behold, one of the derpest counter sets in existence!
Lul this wont work (Slaking) @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Spectral Thief
- Shift Gear
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Announcement: With the change in the metagame
I wanted to add that there will be no change in the previous banlist; the decision of the Water Bubble suspect will hold for the current metagame. This comes at a good time since we can't begin another suspect immediately after the WB one so we should have a good idea of how APS behaves in the new meta with maxed out EVs and the updated ability clause. The schedule for upcoming bans and policy for potential suspects for unbans is going to stay the same.
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APS is weaker, i posted during 510 EV times +2 MMY can 1HKO P-Don with Psychic, thats no longer the case;
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 337-397 (83.4 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-Y Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 328-386 (81.1 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Earth Power is needed for the 1HKO.
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 337-397 (83.4 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-Y Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 328-386 (81.1 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Earth Power is needed for the 1HKO.
RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
Good riddance.
Since we have been discussing on the way to ban APS from E4 Flint's post here, maybe continuing on that, I think will be a good way to get ourselves back on track.
GmU pokeboss9 has mentioned how APS was significantly weakened (at least to some degree?) after EV limitations were gone by showing interesting calculations.
No more EV limitations will:
* Make walls tank mixed hits, meaning they can deal with sudden setups at least easier than before.
* Any 'mons with unbalanced defensive stats, such as Primal Kyogre (sp def significantly higher than defense), RegenVest forms of Aggron, Steelix, Solgaleo, etc will need more than just couple super effective hits to be taken down.
* Force wallbreakers without setup moves to run Choice Items to have better power, or to alter themselves to APS sweeper with Shell Smash.
Since we have been discussing on the way to ban APS from E4 Flint's post here, maybe continuing on that, I think will be a good way to get ourselves back on track.
GmU pokeboss9 has mentioned how APS was significantly weakened (at least to some degree?) after EV limitations were gone by showing interesting calculations.
No more EV limitations will:
* Make walls tank mixed hits, meaning they can deal with sudden setups at least easier than before.
* Any 'mons with unbalanced defensive stats, such as Primal Kyogre (sp def significantly higher than defense), RegenVest forms of Aggron, Steelix, Solgaleo, etc will need more than just couple super effective hits to be taken down.
* Force wallbreakers without setup moves to run Choice Items to have better power, or to alter themselves to APS sweeper with Shell Smash.
I miss Water Bubble. I like Max EVs.
The only thing which surprises me is that not APS, not Moongeist & Sunsteel, not Power Trip or Core Enforcer,
but Water Bubble made Unaware unviable.
Now Unaware is viable on everything, because of this;
252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Power Trip (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Unaware Giratina: 362-428 (71.8 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
a.) If you dont 1HKO, you die to Metal Burst.
b.) If you boost further your boosts get stolen by Spectral Thief.
c.) If you switch in your Unaware Core Enforcer removes it.
d.) If the enemy Imposter switches in after your ability got removed, it will still have yours.
Prankster sucks compared to Unaware as it can not abuse any of the moves mentioned in a-d.
And its only +1, it gets outpaced by Fakespeed or Triage Tail Glow M-Ray.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario-Mega Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 376-445 (82.4 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As you can see nothing to fear from APS.
The only thing which surprises me is that not APS, not Moongeist & Sunsteel, not Power Trip or Core Enforcer,
but Water Bubble made Unaware unviable.
Now Unaware is viable on everything, because of this;
252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Power Trip (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Unaware Giratina: 362-428 (71.8 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
a.) If you dont 1HKO, you die to Metal Burst.
b.) If you boost further your boosts get stolen by Spectral Thief.
c.) If you switch in your Unaware Core Enforcer removes it.
d.) If the enemy Imposter switches in after your ability got removed, it will still have yours.
Prankster sucks compared to Unaware as it can not abuse any of the moves mentioned in a-d.
And its only +1, it gets outpaced by Fakespeed or Triage Tail Glow M-Ray.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario-Mega Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 376-445 (82.4 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As you can see nothing to fear from APS.
I feel that now is a good time to look forward to other contentious topics in BH right now, after having two full weeks to test the max EV meta. It is my impression that APS has either been dealt with or died down organically, from my feedback from active players from all parts of the BH ladder, and it is still available for discussion in the future if that is to change. I have therefore decided to move onto Innards Out.
A new thread for a suspect poll and discussion about Innards Out has been created here. You may continue to post there or within in this thread, but note that that thread will only be active until the end of Monday, March 20th.
A new thread for a suspect poll and discussion about Innards Out has been created here. You may continue to post there or within in this thread, but note that that thread will only be active until the end of Monday, March 20th.
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