BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[GmU pokeboss9]

I ll keep this long, i have not made a long post in quite a while so i guess its time again.


The big addition US/UM gave us is Photon Geyser. I agree with Morogrim on that topic.
MMX was always hindered by the lack of a good Psychic STAB which can outperform MMY Psystrike.

It got it with Photon Geyser, an intelligent defensive targeting move with Mold Breaker effect.
Too bad both M-Medicham and M-Gallade share MMX typing otherwise they could have made an entrance into BH.


Giratina is not an answer to MMX anymore, Choice Band can 2HKO without Adaptability.
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 228-268 (45.2 - 53.1%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
This is big as Giratina used to be a relatively safe switch in.

My favorite Item for MMX is Mind Plate, it gives a solid chance to 2HKO Giratina.
252 Atk Mind Plate Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 244-288 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
And the damage is similar to non- Adaptability Choice Band making Band bluffing possible.

Tough Claws is an option to boost Spectral Thief and U-Turn, it has a good chance to 1HKO other MMX on switch in.
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 404-476 (97.1 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
You can trade Close Combat for V-Create with this ability, you still 1HKO Registeel and switch your counterspectrum a bit.

Greninja-Ash is the only Dark type faster than MMX so it can switch in, Encore, Substall, Set Up or revengekill,
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 312-369 (89.6 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Rocks up means only Fur Coat Greninja is safe.

Another check is Yveltal, which its is forced to have Fur Coat and still cant switch in with rocks up.
252 Atk Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 260-308 (57 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Fist Plate Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 312-368 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- 50% to OHKO with SR
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 338-400 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- 93.8% to OHKO with SR
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 390-460 (85.5 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

M-Sableye is the closest thing to a counter as it is immune to both of MMX STABs
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Mewtwo-Mega-X Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Mewtwo-Mega-X V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Sableye-Mega: 136-161 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 28.1% to 2HKO
It can still get 2HKoed by Sunsteel or V-Create in Sun, but pretty much the perfect Imposterproofer.

Ironically MMY is the most practical check, it resits both STABs, has neutral STAB itself and outspeeds.
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. -1 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X: 367-433 (88.2 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Fleur Cannon is a 1HKO at -1, otherwise Spec and/or Terrain needed.

Another popular check is M-Rayquaza, Fake Speed can be blocked by Psychic Terrain so only Scarf Aerilite Boomburst works guaranted,
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 396-468 (95.1 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Using Terrain Scarf M-Ray has a chance to not 1HKO, nevertheless M-Ray has typing advantage and MMX has to respect that.

The Imposter stays a valid option to check MMX. The MMX must be really careful with set up moves if it runs Photon Geyser.
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X in Psychic Terrain: 346-408 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X in Psychic Terrain: 346-408 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In this scenario Choice Band is a practical way to get an important Power edge which most Imposters are missing.


I think any ability other than Psychic Terrain, Adaptability or Touch Claws is pointless on MMX now.
It gets all the power it needs without being stopped by Prankster Haze like all those set upper sets.

Its most effective moveset is Close Combat + Photon Geyser, Spectral Thief for coverage and one move of choice.
The prediction factor is huge, you will have to click Photon Geyser on Dark Types if you predict them to switch.

I would still judge MMY as superior to MMX, it can nuke slightly harder, its easier to imposterproof and it has better 1on1 matchups.
MMY has just the right attack/defense ratio to 2HKO other MMY with V-Create and avoiding a speedtie with M-Gengar helps a lot.

MMX is close to its power and because of its dual typing it changes the meta more than MMY.
Strong dual types tend to get banned quicker, take a look at P-Don compared with P-Kyogre.

 

[E4 Flint]

Based on the discussion in this thread recently and my observations from ladder, I am considering a possible suspect on Psychic Surge. Feel free to post or re-post your thoughts either way, with this now as the main context. Based on feedback, I will decide on whether to go ahead with it and if so, when and how. Thanks

 

[lepton]

I support a psychic surge ban.
it has almost completely centralized the meta around itself, the mewtwos are easily the two best Pokémon in the tier, and I believe it is because of psychic surge. Mewtwo y doesn't mainly run psysurge, but when it does, it has like one switchin, being non-imposter chansey (correct me if I'm wrong, I normally run sheer force).
The bigger mon though is mewtwo x. Honestly give me a switchin for photon/cc/vcreate - and since it is faster than pretty much all non-scarf offensive mons (mewtwo y being the big exception), shell smash has many chances to set up. And once it does, goodbye offense and most balances and some stalls. It's only really stopped by prankster d-bond or other sash smash things, but that's a discussion for another time. (I don't think they're broken)
I don't think either of the mewtwos are the problem. Mewtwo x without psysurge has multiple switchins like giratina or zygod, and sash smash isn't nearly as threatening without the boost to stored power or photon. mewtwo x without psysurge really struggles to do much of anything - fridge isn't very strong, same with Dazzling, tough claws doesn't boost photon, and illusion is broken (but that's another discussion for another time). Mewtwo y is likewise dealable with (English), as most teams now have some way to deal with it.
I also don't think photon is the problem. yes, mewtwo x without photon wasn't the top tier threat it is now - but mewtwo y sure was. I think a photon ban would also solve the problem, but I believe that it isn't broken. sungeist isnt broken even though it has similar strength abusers (kart/gengar), but those don't have an ability that boosts them by 50% while also blocking priority.
In conclusion, psysurge is both broken and unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[pazza]

I do not support a psysurge ban
Now lets look at it whats really the problem? Mmy? Photon? Psysurge? No I think the real problem is MMX
Now lets say its ability is psysurge :
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina in Psychic Terrain: 313-369 (62.1 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now mmx has other great abilitys other then psysurge and adapt is a very good one :
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 278-328 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now if you remove psysurge your pretty much removing mmy MOST used ability in bh.
So pretty much this post says instead of banning psysurge maybe start looking into MMX.

(yea I know no one cares about my opinion but im just gonna put it here)
(pls dont ban mmx xd)

 

[Rumors]

I'm fine with a Psychic Surge suspect. The ability gives a 50% damage boost which... isn't broken on its own (see Electric Surge, Drought, Drizzle, Steelworker, etc.), but its significant. The problem is it also provides anti-priority, which is significant protection and prevents revenge KOing, something the top abusers of Psychic Surge used to have to run King's Shield to protect themselves from. Removing Psychic Surge would force them to choose between damage (Adapt, Tough Claws, etc.), safety (Dazzling/QM), or running the more awkward option of the move Psychic Terrain itself.

I personally think the Mewtwos are more problematic in general, both in and beyond the scope of Psychic Surge and the like, but Psychic Surge is still pretty unhealthy in its own right, enough that I definitely will not oppose a suspect and feel, even if not suspected now, it'll come up again soon in the future.

 

[morogrim]

Here's a few points I would like to make for the current state of the game and my opinions on a potential Mmy/Mmx/Surge suspect:

1. Mmy

Being one of the top threats in the current meta, Mmy is pretty versatile when it comes to running different sets. However, there are only a limited number of sets that Mmy can run that are the most efficient for what the Mmy is trying to accomplish. For example, Specs Surge is the most used set for Mmy, and for good reason: it is the most efficient at wallbreaking while still offering utility and requiring minimal support from the team. Obviously there are other viable sets for Mmy such as SF and Contrary, but there is a reason as to why Surge is the most common. This raises the question: "Is Mmy broken in the current meta, or is it just Surge?" Imo, there are sets that Mmy can run which are actually even more powerful than Specs Surge, such as Contrary. The Specs Surge set at least has some viable switchins such as various RegenVest users (Yveltal and Dialga come to mind), but nothing actually walls Contrary Mmy (outside of sets such as Unaware Chansey which are super niche/uncommon and the very existence of those sets should be an indication of just how strong Contrary Mmy is). With that being said, there are very few wallbreakers out there that can actually OHKO a good majority of the meta with just one move (the only mon that comes close would be Specs Ray, and even Specs Ray needs a little bit of chip damage to be able to OHKO walls that are hit neutrally). The main reason that nothing has been done about Specs Surge Mmy yet is imo the fact that once again, similarly to the case of Mmx, Mmy's STAB has an immunity in Dark types. This one drawback would typically cause Mmy to be an inferior Specs Ray, except the fact that Psychic Surge, unlike Aerilate, provides the user's team with the utility of being immune to priority moves in addition to also boosting Psychic moves. So, we can see that the main issue of Specs Surge Mmy is not the wallbreaking power alone, but actually the utility it provides for the entire team while also being able to wallbreak at around the same level as Specs Ray. Of course, Mmy also has a way higher Speed stat than Mega Ray, which enables it to also function as an offensive check to most other offensive mons (while also being able to wallbreak and provide Psychic Surge utility). This brings us back to the original question: "What's broken and hence, banworthy?" This is a difficult question to answer since Mmy is not quite as powerful as Pdon, but at the same time does still shape the meta. To answer the question, I will use the banning philosophy that can be found in the OP:

Is Mmy banworthy/broken? Let's use the "Pokemon Ban" section from the ban guide:

- Inherent/Natural Qualities: While Mmy is certainly one of the top threats in BH currently (maybe even the top threat), it is not head and shoulders above the other threats in the meta. Mons such as Mmx, Mega Ray, and even mons such as Mega Diancie are top threats in BH that are not really that far away from Mmy. Mmy does not pass this section.

- Multidimensional and Unique Sets: There are definitely some abilities that Mmy simply performs extremely well with while having almost no other mon with the same capability (abilities such as Psychic Surge and Contrary come to mind). But even those abilities can be run on other mons without much of a difference in performance (Mmx for Surge and Mega Ray/Mmx/Mega Sceptile for Contrary). If we however decide to not include Mmx in this discussion since the suspect discussion also involves Mmx, we can obviously see that no other mon can run Psychic Surge and have anywhere near the same impact that Mmy currently has on the meta with that ability. Mmy could possibly pass this section.

- Centralization:
Is it difficult to win without using Specs Surge Mmy? Not necessarily, there are many other offensive threats that can be used in balance teams to great success even in the current meta. Additionally, the stall archetype doesn't even need Mmy in it at all; in fact, using Mmy in a stall team is probably not even that good. The only archetype that absolutely needs Psychic Surge support in order to work is HO which is just one of the subsets of the offense archetype.
Are checks and counters for Mmy insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for Mmy uniquely or the rest of the tier? Again, not really. The most common checks for Mmy also check other things (RegenVest Steels check -ates and many other special attackers, RegenVest Yveltal checks Mega Gengar). This also means that usually while teambuilding, you end up being automatically prepared for Mmy by using these kinds of checks.
Is Mmy is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other? Once again, not really. While there are some sets (such as SF) that beat the checks that switch into for example the Surge set, those sets alone are pretty manageable. As an example, Imposter Chansey can easily take on the SF set, and Imposter is extremely common. Additionally, a set such as SF isn't nearly as common as Specs Surge, which I guess also points out that Mmy isn't "so good" with all these other abilities, it's "good." In other words, most of the time you wouldn't lose to another Mmy set because you prepared only for the Surge set because A. the other sets aren't nearly as commonly used as Surge and B. the other sets can usually be dealt with using what you already have on your team.
Mmy does not pass this section either.

Looking at the categories for a Pokemon Ban, it seems that Mmy does not really qualify as a banworthy mon.


2. Mmx

Before I get to my opinion on Mmx, I'd like to point out one extremely important detail. I have seen many players use the 2HKO calc on Giratina and Zygarde-C as an argument to show how "broken" Mmx is. While it is certainly true that Mmx can now 2HKO the checks it used to have before, this does not necessarily mean that Mmx is broken; it just shows that those mons can no longer be used as Mmx checks. As I have already mentioned in a previous post, as a meta changes, sometimes the checks to some mons also change, and this is fine. What wouldn't be fine is if there are no new checks to the mon in question, which is not the case for Mmx. That being said, let's use the ban guidelines for the case of Mmx:

- Inherent/Natural Qualities: Similarly to Mmy, Mmx is also not head and shoulders above the other threats in BH. Mmx does not pass this section.

- Multidimensional and Unique Sets: The only ability that Mmx almost exclusively uses to great success in the current meta would be Adaptability, and no other mon really comes close to Mmx when using that ability. Psychic Surge is another ability that comes to mind, with Mmy being the other user that is similarly effective with that set. Mmx could possibly pass this section.

- Centralization:
Is it difficult to win without using Mmx? Again, not necessarily. The only archetype that absolutely needs Psychic Surge support would be HO, and even in HO you don't need to necessarily use Mmx since Mmy is also a viable Surge setter.
Are checks and counters for Mmx insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for Mmx uniquely or the rest of the tier? This is where Mmx differentiates itself from Mmy. There are quite a few checks and counters to Mmx that have risen in usage ever since usum, some of which are indeed niche mons (Mega Sableye and Cresselia come to mind). However, even though these mons were previously almost never used, they aren't niche to the point of "forcing the decision to either prepare for Mmx uniquely or the rest of the tier." Mega Sableye can also check Regigigas, and Cresselia can check Mmy. That being said, Mmx does have a stronger case for this subsection compared to Mmy.
Is Mmy is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other? Not really, the two most used sets for Mmx in the current meta are Psychic Surge and Adapt, which pretty much share the same checks. Obviously there are lure sets that Mmx can use to beat the checks to those two sets, but those lure sets are pretty weak in most other situations and are also very uncommon.
The conclusion for this section is pretty subjective as arguments could be made for either side, which means that Mmx could possibly pass this section as well. Imo however, Mmx wouldn't pass this section.

Looking at the categories for a Pokemon Ban, it seems that Mmx could qualify as a suspect-worthy mon.


3. Psychic Surge

The final topic for the suspect discussion is an ability that truly defined the gen7 meta for BH. From the very beginning of gen7 up until today, Psychic Surge was used in various ways. Despite all the suspect tests and bans, this ability always found a way back into the meta, and not just anywhere in the meta but the very top of it. This brings us to the final question of my post, "Is Psychic Surge broken?" We will once again use the ban guideline for abilities to find the answer to this question, but before we get into that I would like to point out that without Mmy or Mmx, this ability would probably be on the same level as the other Surge abilities (maybe only slightly better). This is a pretty bold statement (getit), but there is a reasoning behind it. The reason why using the other Surge abilities is so difficult is that usually, when we want to have a certain terrain setter, the terrain setter itself is a sacrificial lamb for the greater good of the team. We just slap the Surge ability on one mon so that the rest of the team can benefit from it. In other words, there aren't really many examples of mons that can perfectly benefit from any of the other Surge abilities without sacrificing something in return. Mmy and Mmx were the only examples of mons that truly benefited from Psychic Surge and would still be perfectly fine using the ability even if no other team member needed the utility of Psychic Surge. The same could not really be said about any other mon using the other Surge abilities. If Mmx and Mmy were to be banned, the next in line for Psychic Surge abusers would be mons such as Mega Alakazam and Deo-A, which would also be able to benefit from the ability in a very similar manner as Mmy and Mmx, but they would be significantly inferior in many aspects compared to the original users of Psychic Surge. But without further delay, let's see if Psychic Surge is banworthy or not:

- Can Psychic Surge be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard? Nope. As already mentioned, the mons next in line after Mmy and Mmx are significantly weaker and would probably not be used nearly as often as these two powerhouses. Psychic Surge does not pass this section.

- Extreme Augmentation: This does not really apply to Psychic Surge either, as both Psychic Surge Mmy and Mmx do have viable checks. While arguments could be made for the Extreme Augmentation of Psychic Surge for Mmx, this would only point out that the culprit is in fact Mmx and NOT Psychic Surge. Psychic Surge does not pass this section either.

Looking at the categories for an ability ban, it seems that Psychic Surge does not qualify as a banworthy ability.



In conclusion, out of Mmy, Mmx, and Psychic Surge, only Mmx seems to be suspect-worthy.

 

[a loser]

I am against banning Psychic Surge.

Yes, Psychic terrain is set apart from the other terrains in that two of the most powerful and versatile mons in the game have their STAB boosted by it. Grassy and Electric terrains can help boost Kartana, Zekrom, and the like, but not to the same extreme MMX and MMY are boosted. Also, the other effects of Psychic terrain are much more relevant in BH than those of Grassy and Electric. Earthquake is rarely seen in BH and if you want no sleeping, Misty terrain does that and more. So yes, the ability to summon Psychic terrain has plenty of benefits.

I don't think is is broken or unhealthy for the game. When used offensively, it can definitely be used to drop bombs. But to drop these bombs usually requires to be locked into a move, which can help or hurt either side. Sure, you can use something other than choice items under this terrain, but that also takes away from the raw power and gives the opponent better chances of working something out. When used defensively, it can protect not only the Mewtwo's from priority offense but their teammates as well. This is a nice blanket check for the team rather than sending out a Queenly/Dazzling mon to stomach a potential Boomburst or coverage moves. I'll also note that the terrain can easily be removed by bringing in a different terrain. I think we can all agree that the next best terrain is Misty, for the utility it provides.

I've had quite a bit of success running a team with Misty terrain. I didn't choose it to directly counter Psychic terrain, but it is nice that it removes it. This team features neither MMX, MMY, nor Psychic terrain and it helped me peak for the first time. This is to say that success can be found without using any of the things that are currently in question of suspecting.

I believe that there is nothing broken or unhealthy about Psychic Surge and it doesn't need to be suspected. If anything could deserve suspecting, it would be MMX, but I still am not sold on it needing to leave the game.

 

[Spartacus89]

I'd like to purpose banning the move Entrainment. I had an experience where my opponent used a Mega-Gengar with Normalize and Focus Sash. Now being that Gengar is Ghost type no Normal move can hit him. So by making all moves Normal and assuming you have no entry hazards (which are not so common in this metagame) then the Gengar can win no matter what or at least unless under a very small chance of circumstances.

 

[pazza]

I'd like to purpose banning the move Entrainment. I had an experience where my opponent used a Mega-Gengar with Normalize and Focus Sash. Now being that Gengar is Ghost type no Normal move can hit him. So by making all moves Normal and assuming you have no entry hazards (which are not so common in this metagame) then the Gengar can win no matter what or at least unless under a very small chance of circumstances.

Many thing wrong with this statement. I can see you didn't read the intro of the thread, here is the part about normalize
"Normalize seems kinda OP when initially facing it, but there a few key things to remember about it:

• All status moves except Thunder Wave still affect the Ghost-type mon even if you are given Normalize
• Magic Bounce will bounce back Entrainment, giving them Magic Bounce
• Judgment, Techno Blast, (NEW) Multi-Attack, (NEW) Revelation Dance and (NEW) Z-moves are unaffected by Normalize"

Now hazards are really common.They help chip mons and also break sashes of other mons.

 

[Rumors]

I'd like to purpose banning the move Entrainment. I had an experience where my opponent used a Mega-Gengar with Normalize and Focus Sash. Now being that Gengar is Ghost type no Normal move can hit him. So by making all moves Normal and assuming you have no entry hazards (which are not so common in this metagame) then the Gengar can win no matter what or at least unless under a very small chance of circumstances.

Okay, but only if we can ban Electrify too to stop Lightning Rod Mega-Gengar from doing the same thing. [/notserious]


Taunt, Encore, Glare, Spore, Sweet Kiss, Swagger, -ate Fakespeed, Judgement, Multi-Attack, Techno Blast, Revelation Dance, Z-moves, Swagger, Teeter Dance, faster Skill Swap, faster Entrainment, Magic Bounce, your own Ghost-types (especially if he's silly and using Sash over Spooky Plate), Corrossive Toxic, Whirlwind, Leech Seed, faster attackers in general, Magic Coat, Sandstream, Snow Warning, Ghost Curse, Disable, Spite, Imposter (if no Plate), double Regen switching, double Ghost switching (no plate), Ghost/Imposter switching (no plate), Will-O-Wisp, Foresight...

There's lots of options, including a number unlisted, and surely something will match your team. Yeah, not all I listed are viable on a lot of teams but, they're still there.

 

[SuperSkylake]

I think the problem with the Mewtwos is that you can add more than one of them to a team; they have enough variety in their sets that you can easily lose a mon if you guess the set wrong, leaving your team open to a sweep by another mewtwo. How is this different from other offense threat spam, there is no real way to judge what sort of set it might be running from team preview. It's also very risky to scout the set with an Imposter, as most sets have ways to severely punish Imposter users. All of the sets brought up here, even the Adaptability MMX with Choice Band Photon and Close Combat which is arguably the scariest one to deal with, can be kept in check with smart play and without resorting to super uncommon defensive measures and most people argue that it isn't broken. I've seen really good arguments to not ban Psychic Surge and no one seems to agree that Photon Geiser is the problem either. Instead, I propose a Mewtwo clause limiting the team to a single Mewtwo (x or y). This would encourage better variety and creativity in team building. Players would now have to think carefully about which Mewtwo they would use and what set it should run instead of just mindlessly slapping it on because they have another Pokemon slot left. I understand that it's a complex ban, and we are trying to avoid those if possible, but I believe the metagame would be less stale and more fun without the prevalence of multi-mewtwo spam teams.

 

[Rumors]

it plays an important role in preventing the resurgence of a fake-speed meta. Yes, dazzling-and-what-not still exist, but all I'm reading right now is people wishing to return to a more gen-6 look-alike meta.

Not arguing against your opinion or stance here nor am I trying to change them, but I just want to say that returning to a Fakepseed or Gen 6ish meta is very unlikely without a number of additional bans. Primarily because we have max EVs while Gen VI was limited to 510 except during early X/Y (this is VERY significant as many frailer Pokemon can survive a Fakespeed with max bulk but can't on 510) and -ates abilities confer a smaller damage boost this generation, but also new Pokemon exist that make -ate user's lives harder. For example, Solgaleo is a common Pokemon everyone's running coverage to hit and it has an offensive counterpart in Dusk Mane, both of which resist Ice, Fairy, and Flying and additionally can scare off or KO Mega-Diancie, Kyu-Black, and Kyu-White with Sunsteel. And then, as you said, there's still Dazzling Majesty. And the new Galvanize users don't commonly run Fakespeed anyway and run into problems with the new Zygarde-C regardless. There's more to it still, but I don't want to sit down and do the research and writing of a long analyses on all the little things and I don't think anyone wants to read one.

So, I think you can relax on that front. We'd need a lot of bans and would need to change the EV allowance to start resembling the hyper-offensive-stall-is-dead-rayquaza-and-diancie-on-every-team ORAS meta.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

For me its unusual to see a Terrain being suspected in a 6vs6 single pokemon metagame.

If you want to see a meta with an overpowered terrain look at the bring 4, 2vs2 Doubles Metagame OU. (Jun 2017 OMotM)
Electric Terrain with Raichu Alola + Tapu Koko had 95% winning matchups, and Tapu Lele got banned.

I know Psychic Surge is OP in Almost any Ability, i remember lots of OMPL matches
being decided by Adaptability or Tinted Lens Latios in Psychic Terrain, you can not say the same about BH.


The Imposter is atleast neutral in BH, as Psychic resits itself, the only exception is Psychic/Dragon.
M-Latiwins are not used and Necromaza-Ultra has an unfortunate speed stat.

Most Spec MMY i see spam Volt Switch which is pretty safe in a non P-Don meta.
Greninja-Ash, M-Gyarados and half Hoopa-U are exclusive switch ins from Turn 1 unique to BH.

This calc should give you an indication of the Power needed to break a good Prankster.
+2 252 Atk Fist Plate Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 304-360 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Only the Prankster Copycat strategy gets hard countered by Psychic Terrain and every -ate user can get hardwalled by a Soundproof.
But it does not matter because your Power Trip sweeper gets unstoppable.

Many dont realise this is a huge buff to Imposter, you can gamble on a speedtie or never set up cuz you suspect a Scarf Imposter.
Pranksters can force you to face their Imposter at unfavorable moments.

M-Gyarados is the strongest Power Trip user and not MMX so targeted Prankster moves will fail anyway.
A ban would be an indirect nerf to the Mewtwos, Psychic Surge is viable as a move etc...


I know i made this long Post about MMX getting stronger but its irrelevant because the Imposter beats it hard.
Chansey is still the strongest, any other poke mentioned for suspect other than Chansey is an early spring joke.

This is my favorite Chansey story; I KO 5 of the opponents pokes with a crit in a row
and he left denying me the chance for a perfect countersweep deluxe edition.

 

[Chessking345]

"Solid" "Counters"...
Surge blocks priority, both pixilate invalid
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y in Psychic Terrain: 242-285 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Only Check, also can only switch in once
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 388-458 (93.2 - 110%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock - mmm
Yveltal can work with fur coat
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 236-278 (56.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO LOL
PH Tina with King's Shield is rare, King's shield is rare in general
Sableye is ok
Who uses Lunala/DW
Um it doesn't set up so whats the point of Dragon Tail?

I agree with Psysurge suspect, priority blocking is extremely problematic when you must use scarf to revenge kill with priority blocked. Also somewhat affecting teambuilding as you rarely pick a wallbreaker that is not a mewtwo because the mewtwos are too good and unless the surprise factor is needed other breakers are generally not worth it.

 

[morogrim]

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina in Psychic Terrain: 418-492 (82.9 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

How is KS gonna help with that? Geyser doesn't make contact either.


252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lunala in Psychic Terrain: 255-300 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lunala: 612-720 (128 - 150.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lunala walls? Since when?

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X in Psychic Terrain: 346-408 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

Nice Imposter switchin (that's eviolite btw, scarf takes way more)

 

[morogrim]

The only reason you'd use Adapt Mmx is because you have terrain to support it, otherwise you're better off just running Surge Mmx...also learn the meaning of a "counter" before spewing nonsense like Pixilate Mega Diancie being a counter to Mmx.

 

[cityscapes]

Excuse me, why don’t I just assume Diancie-Mega has a Surge teammate as well? If you are calling a Counter a Counter to all teammate situations paired with MMX then it is impossible, if you call a Counter to just MMX and MMX alone then Diancie-Mega is a Counter.

Learn to stop being rude- you are assuming best case scenario for MMX and ignoring a fair and average scenario - Terrain runs out, or both teams have different surges where say Misty Terrain can negate Psychic Terrain. Before you say Misty Terrain isn’t used, it is used notably on Giratina, and to prevent both Posion Heal users, and reduce Dragon damage it would take from common moves like Core Enforcer. Keep up.

Let me put it this way: if both MMX with Adaptability and Mega-Diancie are the last ones on the team and no Terrain, Diancie always wins.

this is not a counter

a counter can switch in

mega diancie cannot switch in. mmx mauls it with either stab move

what you're thinking of is a check. sash magic guard diancie checks mmx, scarf pixilate diancie checks mmx, extreme speed pixilate diancie checks mmx without terrain up. a check wins the 1v1, while a counter has to avoid the 2hko to switch in. no mega diancie set counters mmx.

getting terrain for mmx is easier than it looks. you can just bring in specs surge mmy and force a 50/50 where if they go to their ttar or something you can volt switch into mmx and suddenly you have cb adapt mmx in terrain and unless your opponent has one of like 3 counters, you get a kill if you win a 50/50. the really annoying thing about this is that you're really pressured to keep your mmy counter alive because losing a mon to specs boost is never fun.

misty surge doesn't just fit on every team because what if you want to use your own poison heal mons? also pretty sure giratina gets 2hkod by adapt either way

that's all ig

 

[MAMP]

alright

it's a little bit frustrating to see a lot of people in this thread arguing as though the only metric for determining if a pokemon should be banned or not is how easy or difficult it is to counter defensively. when discussing whether something should be banned, it's important to consider its impact on the metagame more broadly: how does it affect the viability of other pokemon/playstyles? how does it affect teambuilding? etc. defensive counterplay is only one factor to consider.

i feel that psychic surge is broken and should be banned, not only because of its own power but also because i believe that the way that it nerfs priority has a detrimental effect on the metagame overall.

first, the psychic surge abusers themselves. the primary culprits are m2y and m2x and these two are mainly what i'm talking about when i refer to psychic surge being broken. mons like deo-a and ultra necro are scary too but weaker in various ways yada yada who cares nobody uses these. psychic surge is broken for the same reasons that protean was. it's an extremely powerful and versatile wallbreaking tool that requires fairly specific defensive counterplay that can be worked around by the psychic surge mon with little opportunity cost. of course, there are plenty of mons in bh that fit this description; what sets psychic surge apart is that it's also very difficult to check offensively. psurge m2y and m2x outspeed most of the metagame, they're immune to priority, and they're bulky enough that only a handful of scarfers can threaten to ohko them. this means there's only a small handful of offensive sets that can reliably beat m2y/m2x 1v1, and even fewer that aren't specifically designed to do so. this limits many teams to running passive, defensive answers to psychic surge, which limits teambuilding a lot and can make psychic surge really obnoxious to try and play around.

the prevalence of psychic surge in the metagame also has a notable side-effect. psychic surge nerfs priority into the ground, which makes a ton of otherwise balanced threats (normalise gar, contrary, random shell smash mons) way harder to deal with than they would be otherwise. quite a few prominent players have said that they think that these aformentioned mons are broken, including myself. i've now come to the conclusion that their brokenness is a symptom of psychic surge's effect on the meta, and that the increased viability of prankster topsy-turvy/heart swap and powerful offensive priority like -ate and triage would help keep them in check. throughout this generation i've noted that it feels basically impossible to build a team that's properly prepared for the metagame without ending up with something extremely passive, making the tier very matchup based. at first i thought that this was just because there were too many new threats to deal with, and i think that's still part of the problem, but i also think that the massive weakening of two of the best and most versatile blanket checks in the tier (prankster and -ate) massively contributes to the problem. powerful offensive priority in bh has historically played a very important role in keeping down fast offensive threats and frail set-up sweepers, and psychic surge throws off that balance. making it viable for pranksters to not have to run haze would also make contrary way less obnoxious to play against, which can only be a good thing.

it's for these reasons that i'd also like to see dazzling and queenly majesty suspected. preferably not alongside psychic surge, as they clearly aren't on the same power level and haven't really had their full potential explored, but hopefully at some point in the future.

sidenote: i really wish this thread had some more active moderation. im not gonna name names or anything but there's a lot of posts in the last few pages of this thread that really don't contribute anything worthwhile to the discussion and just end up distracting and cluttering the thread.

 

[Lcass4919]

okay. looking at this discussion, im just going to use the BH guidelines to "examine" each of the mentioned suspects. im going into this with EXTREMELY neutral mindset, and blind to the rulesets. and using that to pinpoint what action should be taken.

so mm2x:

Hide

These are the following properties a Pokemon should have to be considered banworthy:

• Inherent/Natural Qualities:
  • A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them.
  • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards
• Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
  • Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive
  • It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more
• Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. This includes the following aspects:
  • One of (or both):
    • It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon or
    • Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier
  • The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other

in order to ban a mon for natural qualities , we have to look at the MON and ignore all abilities and movesets when determining if its banworthy...and lets be real here. mm2x hasnt been a threat before usum, so theres 0 chance it falls into this catigory.

multidimensional and unique sets: no. mm2x's main set it uses is literally the same set with adapt or psy surge if no other mon runs psy surge. it doesnt fall into this catigory.

centralization: nope. it requires both of the above to be active in order to be considered, and mm2 doesnt fit into either of these catigories. the problem isn't mewtwo x sadly.

morogrim made a pretty excellent post about how mm2x is centralizing, however, the problem is that in order for a mon to be banworthy, all three need to be valid. since mewtwo doesn't follow any of the above catigories, inherent qualities or multidimentional sets, it cannot pass the final catigory. its the only one with a harsh criteria, but it makes sense as banning mons in bh is a taboo.

onto the next one: psy surge.

Hide

An Ability should be considered for ban based on:

• "Splashable"ility:
  Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard
• Extreme Augmentation:
  The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

splashability: nope. psy terrain is fairly restrictive to what can use it effectively, its CLOSE to fitting this since its a field effect, but even so, most users fall into similar categories with similar issues. i can somewhat see an argument for this. but in the end, you cant just slap a psychic surge on a rayquaza, gengar, or chansey and expect crazy results. unlike shadow tag or wonder guard.

extreme augmentation: this is actually another very possible possibility, that is, until its elaborated that "the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant." and dispite what you might think, as i said before, it wasnt an issue pre usum. and only became an issue afterwards. on top of this, psy surge requires psychic moves and speed to be effective. the examples give a better idea on what this implies, as pure power and parental bond are both EXTREMELY powerful on almost ANY mon that runs them. and mm2x needs photon geyser in order to be worth using, which alone nullifies this argument.hm... im noticing a pattern. mm2x wasnt bad until usum, psy surge was manageable until photon geyser. usum introduced geyser...

so out of the two, i can conclude that psychic surge is the issue that needs to be addressed. based on the guidelines of what is suspect worthy...that is, if we didnt have a third issue to deal with:

Hide

• An attack with either no counters, or unreasonably niche or unusable ones e.g. OHKO Moves
• A move (attack or status) that removes the emphasis on skill, planning and/or preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player e.g. Chatter

ill point out the first one: "An attack with either no counters, or unreasonably niche or unusable ones" at first, this seems super broad, and you can easily dismiss this as a "this is for overkill moves like ohko" but then when you actually take this at face value, photon geyser fits this description to the tee. when paired with an ability, what stops photon geyser? steel types? dark types? psychic types? fighting coverage breaks two of them, and with psy surge, it breaks past most frail psychic types. physical walls? psy surge breaks through most, and you can just run a special variant. special walls? same thing. abilities? lolnope. photon geyser is the hidden issue here.

"but without psychic surge photon isnt as bad" neither is ohko without noguard.

"i dont think you can use other moves with this" unfortunately i cant really argue against this, although at the same time, i think that some ohko moves having viable counters (flying types vs fissure) (giratina with horn drill/guillotine) can rectify this logic.

the problem at hand is photon geyser's utility being nearly impossible to defend against. fur coat is ignored, psychic surge lets it break past walls, its splashable on physical and special psychic types due to its effect, and it fits this description of a banworthy move to a tee. the only counters to photon surge mm2x is cresselia and fur coat yvel(edit: and lugia...you know somethings not viable when you forget it even exists)...and dont you dare tell me they aren't "unreasonably niche"

and for the nail in the coffin...when did mm2x start becoming a problem? when it got access to photon geyser. Illuminati confirmed. but seriously, going in blind, the "closest to banworthy" by descriptions is photon geyser with psychic surge coming close to second.

and anyone who knows me knows i hate mega evolutions in bh, so this isn't bias speaking.


edit: also no offense, but looking at these conversations, its almost like none of you bothered to look at the front page to look at the specifically made criteria flint made specfically to stop random bickering like this from happening. morogrim is the only one who seems to actually be looking at the criterias to make his post.

 

[Rumors]

Lcass4919 Since you brought it up, I'll personally reiterate that if Photon Geyser is a problem for bypassing abilities, it should not be suspected by itself as I demonstrated in this post, Photon Geyser has kinda crummy coverage against the meta compared to its sister moves: Moongeist Beam and Sunsteel Strike (ESPECIALLY Moongeist Beam). I personally agree Photon Geyser may deserve a separate look, but only along with those three, as the only thing it has over the other two are two top-tier STAB users and access to Psychic Surge support (offset a bit by Steelworker giving the same boost) and able to be special or physical which, as people have mentioned many times, does little since Ytwo didn't really change from Geyser. Otherwise, all are the same base power with the same important secondary effect.

 

[Lcass4919]

Lcass4919 Since you brought it up, I'll personally reiterate that if Photon Geyser is a problem for bypassing abilities, it should not be suspected by itself as I demonstrated in this post, Photon Geyser has kinda crummy coverage against the meta compared to its sister moves: Moongeist Beam and Sunsteel Strike (ESPECIALLY Moongeist Beam). I personally agree Photon Geyser may deserve a separate look, but only along with those three, as the only thing it has over the other two are two top-tier STAB users and access to Psychic Surge support (offset a bit by Steelworker giving the same boost) and able to be special or physical which, as people have mentioned many times, does little since Ytwo didn't really change from Geyser. Otherwise, all are the same base power with the same important secondary effect.

i understand this, and i was so close to mentioning the other two, however, i do not think this is a valid point. moongeist and sunsteel both have MASSIVE issues associated with them that prevent them from being *too* powerful. moongeist literally has no good STAB abusers since spook judgement's utility is just so much better, and has no viable way to magnify its power to a similar degree as photon geyser. moongeist has better coverage, but moongeist also lacks mons that actually wants to use it since nomatter what you do you become imposter-bait.

sunsteel is perhaps the arguably broken one out of the duo, however, theres a major issue with sunsteel: the abusers suck compared to photon geysers. there is yet to be a steel type that breaks the crutial speed tier of 120-140, while also maintaining stats equivalent to mons like mm2 and the like. on top of this, photon geyser provides immunity to priority, which for a powerful move, is a HUGE asset. especially when ALL STAB abusers of photon surge have redic speed tiers. if we got a steel type like necro-dusk but with a speed tier of 120 id agree to sunsteel being banworthy...but as of now, sunsteel just lacks the abusers to be seen as a problem.

the issue here is that the trio of suspect-potential altogeather form a "Banworthy aspect" (powerful psychic, psychic surge, and photon geyser) and in order to take action we have to look at "which one is the bigger issue" while also looking at "which one follows the criteria best" and moongeist and sunsteel both do not have this issue in the meta (or at least, not that i know of). we cannot complex ban the psychic trio, so we have to pick which one is the "main problem" and im simply stating through the BH suspect and bans criteria photon geyser is the closest to fitting this. moongeist and sunsteel dispite being similar and potentially even better-on-paper just lack the proper compliments photon geyser has to be added onto the suspect with this in mind.

i know this is me basically saying "its not JUST photon geyser thats the problem" but as i said, we cant complex ban, and the other two suffer from bigger problems that allow us to take action on them.
.

 

[E4 Flint]

Good week of discussion. Here are my personal thoughts, which I'll try to keep short and sweet.

tldr/spoilers: I mostly agree with mamp in that psychic surge seems to be the source of the problem not just with m2x+photon geyser combined with priorityblocking support for the entire team. I think progressing to a Psychic Surge suspect is the right course of action. The suspect ladder will also have it banned, so if it is true that M2X / Photon Geyser is the bigger problem, (hopefully) the suspect results will reflect that, and we can proceed to suspects for them (if needed). I am thinking of beginning a suspect on Psychic Surge starting from Monday Feb 2/19.

Slightly more detailed reasoning to specific points:

• imo, the nearest comparable precedent for a proposed m2x ban is KyogrePrimal in gen 6; an overpowering, meta warping main set that can more or less defeat its counters by swapping a single move or two, while having great secondary sets. However, unlike kyogre primal, a large component of the power comes from an 'external' source in psychic terrain. the best comparison I could make is if we banned kyogre for its ph set, and toxic orb did not exist. in addition, and also i don't really think the secondary sets of m2x are that effective, since it is Photon Geyser that has completely transformed its role.
• Judging from discussion here, it seems like there is a consensus of the above that Psychic Terrain being the source of the problem, while there is still a debate on which mewtwo is the stronger user of Psychic Surge
• In addition, Psychic Surge has been brought up in the past as an overpowering presence even with M2Y and smash-sash sets protected by its anti-priority support.
  
  
• Banning mewtwo(s): Let's ignore the argument that mon bans have to have that something special to dominate the tier with multiple sets that make it difficult to answer any one of them with any consistency, as there is still a debate running on that point; the mewtwo's are also not the only beneficiaries of Psychic Terrain, with DeoxysAttack and ZamMega being reasonable alternatives, with the former offering more of a mind game and better mixed/setup option than M2X.
• Banning Photon Geyser: somewhat similar to the previous point about power derived from an 'external source', I think the points mentioned by Rumors is reasonably valid.
• Other:
  • Banning Psychic Surge will reinstate a chaotic -ate meta: As always, balancing should be done with the context of the meta right now, not based on speculating on the future meta. However, if I were to speculate, I don't think I'd agree. -ate's boost has noticeably decreased, there are better answers than last gen (ZygC, NecrozmaDM/Solgaleo) and the existence of QM/Dazzling. I will not entertain speculation of what would happen if QM/Dazzling themselves are banned.
  • Complex banning Photon Geyser + Psychic Surge in a team: I already mentioned that I will not do complex banning of moves on specific mons and that will extend to teams as well. The ComaTalk clause falls into the category of an exception, and even then, it doesn't disallow specific mons; as an analog, not allowing Psychic Surge + Photon Geyser will obviously not work here
  • Psychic Terrain shouldn't be banned because Imposter can still switch in on most of the mons that benefit from it: This is a strange, I guess, "argument", that's not even necessarily true (NecrozmaDW/Lunala, DeoA, PsySurge based APS). Even assuming it was true, unfortunately I don't use "imposter can switch in" as a primary reason to not suspect something.

Thanks everyone

 

[E4 Flint]

I am intentionally double posting for some other non-suspect related things I wanted to talk about.

Friendly reminder, that this thread is open to all types of players who are free to post their opinion. Sometimes there will be posts from a less experienced point of view asking about "why isnt X banned". It's much simpler and (more importantly, better as a community) to just help them out. I have attempted to help do that with the FAQ and "Why is/isn't ___ banned" post as well as a general guideline on how to begin thinking about BH bans, so those can just be referred to probably most of the time.I also know that this may open up the scope for trolls/shitposters but a) that is something that will happen regardless and b) it's a decent trade off if we can help newer players learn. Note that I am not saying don't call out faulty arguments if people persist in them, nor to tolerate trolls or people who go off topic, just not having some kind of bh gatekeeping or forcing people to delete their posts or w/e.

I also would like to mention that I try to check all my threads on a daily basis, and I promise that I do try to read everyone's post here, sometimes even deleted ones. If there is a post that you disagree with me about for being in the thread, or simply that I have missed, you can always mention/call me out on it to me on my smogon wall or pm's, i don't mind.

Also I would like to reiterate question 1 from my FAQ

FAQ​

Is the guideline you posted like a checklist, and absolute?
No. If you have something that clashes with what I have here, that's fine as long as you can substantiate it with sound logic and reasoning.

 

[Lcass4919]

I am intentionally double posting for some other non-suspect related things I wanted to talk about.

Reminder, that this thread is open to all types of players who are free to post their opinion. Sometimes there will be posts from a less experienced point of view asking about "why isnt X banned". It's much simpler and (more importantly, better as a community) to just help them out. I have attempted to help do that with the FAQ and "Why is/isn't ___ banned" post as well as a general guideline on how to begin thinking about BH bans, so those can just be referred to probably most of the time.I also know that this may open up the scope for trolls/shitposters but a) that is something that will happen regardless and b) it's a decent trade off if we can help newer players learn. Note that I am not saying don't call out faulty arguments if people persist in them, nor to tolerate trolls or people who go off topic, just not having some kind of bh gatekeeping or forcing people to delete their posts or w/e.

I also would like to mention that I try to check all my threads on a daily basis, and I promise that I do try to read everyone's post here, sometimes even deleted ones. If there is a post that you disagree with me about for being in the thread, or simply that I have missed, you can always mention/call me out on it to me on my smogon wall or pm's, i don't mind.

my opinion in this matter is everyone but my opinion is trash, and mega evo should be banned and we should unban wonder guard because it would stop pdon and psychic surge from being op :) i beleive i am the savior of BH and i demand all posts in this thread to be edited to talk about how amazing my opinions are and how selfless i am.

on a more serious note, i think its more because its so common that someone asks why is imposter/sturdinja is legal...we answer, then 3 days later someone else asks. its kind of irritating. its not something that can be fixed though, but i do understand why some people would get bitchy over it.

i still think photon mm2x might be an issue after psy surge is banned, as adaptability stab combo with a method to beat FC tina could prove to be a big issue...especially when psychic terrain is still a potential move people can run once psy surge is gone, but thats a topic for when the ban actually takes place in the future.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

The answer to Morogrims
1. MMY
2. MMX
3. Psychic Surge
=
4. ???

It benefits the most from Psychic Surge and Photon Geyser, more than both the Mewtwos.
I made it into top 10 with it and we all know its weaknesses.


??? advantages over MMX;

- Psychic Terrain patches its weakness to revengekilling significantly more.
- It can set up with STAB Photon Geyser and be Imposterproof at the same time.
- It has higher special bulk than MMX; (27.6 - 32.6% vs 26.3 - 31.3%) from 399 SpA with 120 move power.
- It has better odds against M-Ray, neutral Spec M-Ray has only a favorable roll with Boomburst (68,8%).
- Its not only in Psychic Terrain immune to enchanted move priority.
- Its Power Trip sweeps are more deadly.

For those who can not figure ??? out

Magic here, your brain has been stolen .