Ladder Balanced Hackmons

I have a question about BH singles. I know offense/bulky offense is pretty common in this metagame, but I was wondering how other play styles fair. I just want to know if Hyper Offense, Balance, and stall are viable in the current BH meta, and if they are, the types of pokemon they use on their teams.
 
Cenamazing said:
I have a question about BH singles. I know offense/bulky offense is pretty common in this metagame, but I was wondering how other play styles fair. I just want to know if Hyper Offense, Balance, and stall are viable in the current BH meta, and if they are, the types of pokemon they use on their teams.
Click to expand...
Hyper Offense is generally unviable or difficult to use, but Balance and stall are very runnable. Stall almost always has FC chansey, giratina, Mega Audino, and Registeel/Aegislash, while balance has Registeel, Mega Audino, Poison heal sweepers (TTar, Kyogre, Garchomp) and -ate. Obviously there are a lot of other options, like MVenu, Cresselia, Metagross, etc but htose are the main ones.
 
Stall actually has a decent amount of flexibility. The reason those listed pokemon are used is because they are the best known role compressors. Coming up with new ways to compress roles is how stall innovates.
 
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I've never played BH (Singles or Doubles) before today, but I came up with the idea for the BH Doubles team below and had to test it, and it's worked out well so far. No idea how well it will do against good players, since it does have some obvious weaknesses (Perish trapping, Prankster Taunt/Dark Void, Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak, and Gale Wings come to mind), but when it does work, it's hilarious.

Basic strategy: Prankster Golurk uses Spider Web on one opponent while Arceus (I wanted someone who appears more threatening than Golurk, appears to fit the all-ghost theme, and has the 104+ base speed needed to outrun Deoxys-Speed with the help of a Choice Scarf, so the only other option was Mega Gengar) uses Skill Swap to give that same opponent Normalize. Then I switch Arceus for one of my sweepers (Mega Gengar, Mega Banette, and Shedinja, all of which have either Volt Absorb or Motor Drive) while Golurk spams Electrify on the non-Normalized opponent for the remainder of the game. Giratina's there just in case something goes wrong. If all goes well, I sweep the opponent's team while laughing at their complete inability to harm me.

Any suggestions for improving the team? In particular: do I really need Imprison on Golurk, and if not, what should I replace it with? And what item should I give to Golurk (I've been using Mental Herb to alert me to the presence of a Taunter and allow me to Taunt or Imprison them in return, but Lum Berry would have the same effect against Dark Void users, and Focus Sash would almost guarantee Golurk surviving the first round)?

In case it's unclear, I gave a couple of my sweepers Infestation specifically to kill Sturdy Shedinjas, and I put very little thought into Arceus' moveset because if things go well it shouldn't need to do anything but Skill Swap.

Golurk @ Mental Herb
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 116 Def / 136 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spider Web
- Electrify
- Imprison
- Taunt

Arceus-Ghost @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Normalize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 160 Def / 96 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Skill Swap
- Trick
- Topsy-Turvy
- Magma Storm

Gengar-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: Volt Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot

Shedinja @ Lum Berry
Ability: Motor Drive
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Endeavor
- Feint
- Odor Sleuth
- Infestation

Banette-Mega @ Shell Bell
Ability: Volt Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- V-create
- Focus Punch
- Infestation

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spider Web
- Curse
- Leech Seed
- Milk Drink
 
chartung17 said:
I've never played BH (Singles or Doubles) before today, but I came up with the idea for the BH Doubles team below and had to test it, and it's worked out well so far. No idea how well it will do against good players, since it does have some obvious weaknesses (Perish trapping, Prankster Taunt/Dark Void, Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak, and Gale Wings come to mind), but when it does work, it's hilarious.

Basic strategy: Prankster Golurk uses Spider Web on one opponent while Arceus (I wanted someone who appears more threatening than Golurk, appears to fit the all-ghost theme, and has the 104+ base speed needed to outrun Deoxys-Speed with the help of a Choice Scarf, so the only other option was Mega Gengar) uses Skill Swap to give that same opponent Normalize. Then I switch Arceus for one of my sweepers (Mega Gengar, Mega Banette, and Shedinja, all of which have either Volt Absorb or Motor Drive) while Golurk spams Electrify on the non-Normalized opponent for the remainder of the game. Giratina's there just in case something goes wrong. If all goes well, I sweep the opponent's team while laughing at their complete inability to harm me.

Any suggestions for improving the team? In particular: do I really need Imprison on Golurk, and if not, what should I replace it with? And what item should I give to Golurk (I've been using Mental Herb to alert me to the presence of a Taunter and allow me to Taunt or Imprison them in return, but Lum Berry would have the same effect against Dark Void users, and Focus Sash would almost guarantee Golurk surviving the first round)?

In case it's unclear, I gave a couple of my sweepers Infestation specifically to kill Sturdy Shedinjas, and I put very little thought into Arceus' moveset because if things go well it shouldn't need to do anything but Skill Swap.

Golurk @ Mental Herb
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 116 Def / 136 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spider Web
- Electrify
- Imprison
- Taunt

Arceus-Ghost @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Normalize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 160 Def / 96 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Skill Swap
- Trick
- Topsy-Turvy
- Magma Storm

Gengar-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: Volt Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot

Shedinja @ Lum Berry
Ability: Motor Drive
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Endeavor
- Feint
- Odor Sleuth
- Infestation

Banette-Mega @ Shell Bell
Ability: Volt Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- V-create
- Focus Punch
- Infestation

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spider Web
- Curse
- Leech Seed
- Milk Drink
Click to expand...
dont forget that arceus ghost needs multitype+plate to truely change its type. arceus' forme change =/= a type change. that arc is still normal type. maybe consider entrainment over skill swap or run both. just so you can entrain both mons without having to constantly switch out and back in, in case they go the "double offense" method of spamming offensive mons rather then supportive+offensive. topsy is the only "removable" move i can see, so its up to you really.
 
I'm aware that Arceus isn't actually a ghost, I just don't care. And offensive mons are the easiest to beat with this strategy: as long as they don't have priority moves and they don't OHKO Golurk on the first turn, they can't do anything. But Entrainment is a good idea, I'll try that.
 
I'm pretty sure I'm better off with Skill Swap. With Entrainment, there's nothing I can do if the opponent has Magic Bounce and Rage Powder on the same Pokémon.
Actually, now that I think about it, there's no reason I can't have both.
 
Well I haven't played a lot of this meta, but as far as the whole sleep fiasco going on, any bulky mon with crafty shield should work well better than magic bounce as well as guard as it generally discourages your opponent to spam d-void when you pair it with a strong attacker alongside. Best thing is it allows you to run other abilities. It has helped me in VGC a lot where dark void has been an issue for the whole past year. Even safeguard works but that doesn't protect you from taunt and stuff and also you would need prankster for that.

Edit :: Are there any sample teams and stuff for this meta.
 
So I hit #1 on the ladder and I think i'm done with BH Doubles for now. Very fun tier.

Rayquaza-Mega @ Lum Berry
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- King's Shield

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Lum Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dark Void
- Follow Me
- Fake Out
- Diamond Storm

Regigigas @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spiky Shield
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Knock Off

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
- Fire Spin
- Recover
- Psycho Boost
- V-create

Yveltal @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wide Guard
- Quick Guard
- Whirlwind
- Foul Play

Kyurem-White @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Inferno
- Spiky Shield
- Zap Cannon

Generally very solid aside from the huge rock weakness which meant I got swept by Shift Gear Mega Ttar more than I wanted. Sweet veil Mewtwo is something i've been considering but Prankser Follow Me to redirect Fake Out's just wins games. Imposter Chansey is always a tricky matchup but usually managable.

The lead matchup in this tier matters more than any other that I have ever played. Fake out, spread moves, dark void, the guards, geomancy and other setups, kings shield/Spiky are all options that Turn 1 is just a massive "I hope he doesn't counter me well or I instantly lose this game".

Overall a really cool tier with some awesome innovations.
 
Not sure I'll be playing BH Doubles much, if any, more in the near future. What started out as just a crazy idea worked much better than I expected (I peaked at number 17 on the ladder). It certainly has its downsides, due to its lack of adaptability (I've lost to players who clearly had no clue what they were doing, just because they happened to have Follow Me or Shadow Force), but it's won more often than not against decent players. As fitzy said, the first turn is crucial in this meta, for my team more than most: if the first turn goes how I want, I've essentially made it a 2-on-1 fight, and if it fails badly enough, I'm trying to win a fair fight with a team which depended on the fight being unfair in its favor.

My final team is below, with only a few significant changes from the original: Arceus was replaced with Mega Gengar, since it was advantageous to have an actual ghost in that role, while Golurk was given Quick Guard to handle the threat of priority moves, and the sweepers were altered a bit to make the team virtually imposter-proof.
Golurk @ Lum Berry
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spider Web
- Electrify
- Quick Guard
- Taunt

Gengar-Mega @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Entrainment
- Trick
- Leech Seed
- Skill Swap

Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Motor Drive
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Thunderbolt
- Tail Glow

Golurk @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- V-create
- Extreme Speed
- Sand Tomb

Banette-Mega @ Shell Bell
Ability: Volt Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Bolt Strike
- Extreme Speed
- Clamp

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spider Web
- Curse
- Leech Seed
- Milk Drink
 
I have seen more setting up teams in BH doubles recently.

260 BP NON STAB Stored Power is strong enough to sweep any non resistance bar Chansey (M-Latias is 2HKOed)
Giratina and Kyogre come into my mind.

Speaking about Kyogre,

I lost 2 or 3 matches to an annoyer Kyogre;

Kyogre @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / ...
??? Nature
- Spiky Shield
- Leech Seed
- Water Spout
- Substitute

It can Shield, its immune to status, the recovery keeps fulling Water Spout and you can not PP stall it.


edit 1;
I just watched Super Blooper, anyone stopped using Dark Void because of Safeguard ? Use Infiltrator.


edit 2;

Rumors said:
Also mind, you need to remember: one of Imposters biggest advantages is it out-bulks its victim, which means, against non-proofed/resistant sets, Imposter wins in a straight slug match. However, in Doubles, Imposter now has to worry about two Pokemon targeting it if there's not a Follow Me-esque user as its current partner. So throwing Imposter out against a standard sweeper doesn't automatically beat the sweeper, since it and its partner might just shrug and both punch it in the face.

Of course, you could play that to your advantage with some clever strategy.


You also cannot scout nearly so freely in doubles with Imposter due to how costly a manual switch can be, which also hurts one of Imposter's biggest utilities.


Anyway, my point being in the past few posts: Imposter will probably still be pretty strong, but it'll be significantly weaker than it is in singles. Still very viable though. But if you put your whole focus into dealing with an Imposter, you're really going to get wrecked by teams lacking Imposter.
Click to expand...


Imposter = Chansey

I managed to peak 1 with a Mono Chansey team. Its even stronger than in singles.
Doubles is alot more offensive heavy which Imposter outperforms the most.

Protective Set up sweeping is the best playstyle and Lucky Punch Chansey hard counters it.
Imposter gets arround Follow me and Crafty Shield which is big plus.

Now i think there is nothing wrong with using 2 Imposter Chanseys.
2 Improved copies win in most situations easily.

Any potential switch in is at risk of taking up to 4 hits if outspeed.
This means there is no Imposterproofing possible in doubles.

Here a little replay; (1500+ ladder)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/bhdoubles-444102456
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/bhdoubles-444102456
 
Last edited:
urkerab said:
Wouldn't that fail against Magic Bounce? (I don't know how popular Mold Breaker is; it's no use against Magic Coat, but then I don't know how popular that is either).
Click to expand...

It does fail against M-Bounce, Super Blooper was running Mold Breaker for weeks.
Mold Breaker is semi-popular, Magic Coat is very rarely used.

edit 1;
it also works against Screens, which are complettly underused.
 
BoCo365 said:
Should I run refrigerate hyper voice or sniper frost breath on my mega glailie?
Click to expand...
I'd advise not running Mega Glalie, but if you absolutely must, run manual mega evolution download with Fake Out, Extreme Speed, Boomburst and Precipice Blades. Otherwise, run Kyu-B or Kyu-W.
 
Thanks!

Here's a set I came up with
Mewtwo@Leftovers
Adaptability
Focus Blast
Stored Power
Recover
Hone Claws

Shuckle@Leftovers
Simple
Baton Pass
Recover
Cotton Guard
Amnsiea

Shuckle@Leftovers
Simple
Baton Pass
Recover
Shift Gear
Nasty Plot

What do you think? It's high risk, but high reward, as it's a base 680 power move with adaptability STAB
 
Last edited by a moderator:
BoCo365 said:
Here's a set I came up with
Mewtwo@Leftovers
Adaptability
Focus Blast
Stored Power
Recover
Hone Claws

Shuckle@Leftovers
Simple
Baton Pass
Recover
Cotton Guard
Amnsiea

Shuckle@Leftovers
Simple
Baton Pass
Recover
Shift Gear
Nasty Plot

What do you think? It's high risk, but high reward, as it's a base 680 power move with adaptability STAB
Click to expand...
Well, first off priority is common, so I suggest running kings sheild on Mewtwo. Secondly, that set is critically weak to imposter, so You'll need a Mega Sableye or Unaware Yveltal to wall that. Try running something like Lugia instead of Shuckle, as shuckle isn't very bulky. Similarly, there are some flat improvements; Nasty plot<tail glow, hone claws<coil<not running that move lol, and MMy>mewtwo. Finally, you'd be better served by Mega Gengar, who can beat Shedinja and imposter easily.
 
Last edited:
Quantum Tesseract said:
Well, first off priority is common, so I suggest running kings sheild on Mewtwo. Secondly, that set is critically weak to imposter, so You'll need a Mega Sableye or Unaware Yveltal to wall that. Try running something like Lugia instead of Shuckle, as shuckle isn't very bulky. Similarly, there are some flat improvements; Nasty plot<tail glow, hone claws<coil<not running that move lol, and MMy>mewtwo. Finally, you'd be better served my Mega Gengar, who can beat Shedinja and imposter easily.
Click to expand...
Ok, but is Lugia not a better Unaware wall than Yveltal?
 
BoCo365 said:
Ok, but is Lugia not a better Unaware wall than Yveltal?
Click to expand...

Cresselia is a better Unaware than the mentioned two.
It has slightly worse stats than Lugia but superior typing.

Strong Bug Moves are non existant (Infestation only), M-Gengar is alot more manageable and Giratina also runs Stored Power attacking sets.
Knock Off has its power doubled only once.

Lugia is weak to Diamond Storm/Stealth Rock which are really common, most Contrary run V-Create as main attack and Ice weakness makes it
easier to revengekill.
 
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