BH Balanced Hackmons

Sweet Jesus

Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

Magearna-Original @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Moonblast
- Circle Throw
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up

I've been playing this tier for quite a while and this set ends up on 70% of my teams because it covers sooo much. I figured some other people should see how well it works.

I came up with this set trying to find a reliable full counter to all the most common contrary users (ray, m2y, m2x, sceptile) which is pretty hard when you consider they could all be running moongeist beam or sunsteel strike. This set is what comes the closest to me as people waste a turn discovering flash fire most of the time and only m2y's psycho boost get's a chance to 2hko (you can use another nature or leftovers to force the 3hko'd but I prefer a defence boost and helmet).

Moonblast actually hits pretty hard for a wall and dents big holes in the only true bulky ghost giratina. This let's you harass or phaze pretty much any magic bouncer to lay rocks. Circle throw also prevents trapping and stops practicaly everything from setting up. With a plethora of resistances and only ground as a 2x weakness, magearna is a total pain to kill without setting up. Plus circle throw actualy dents a little damage and offers decent coverage with moonblast.

Fire moves are so much better than ground moves that people often completely neglect to bring a ground type move to cover steel making magearna near impossible to kill for certan teams. This would not make magearna such of a pain if it could be stalled with a single mon, but only gengar and aegislash will stop you from putting on chip damage on powerless set up sweepers with circle throw and stealth rock and heal on the walls that get switched out.

Magearna's speed is just good enough to outspeed very common slow walls who tend to run min speed to u-turn and avoid core enforcer's effect. Magearna is also pretty powerless against itself (chansey). Therefore it's far from impossible to find opportunities to heal when left at low health. This does also mean chansey can use magearna to heal peacfuly so watch out for that.

This set still has some downsides as it's huge set up bait for gengar and gets washed by strong hard hitters with neutral stabs such as kyogre so make sure to cover that. Safety goggles and leftovers are good items too, but I like to punish u-turn, add to the chip damage and often switch-in magearna on knock off.
 

Magearna-Original @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Moonblast
- Circle Throw
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up

I've been playing this tier for quite a while and this set ends up on 70% of my teams because it covers sooo much. I figured some other people should see how well it works.

I came up with this set trying to find a reliable full counter to all the most common contrary users (ray, m2y, m2x, sceptile) which is pretty hard when you consider they could all be running moongeist beam or sunsteel strike. This set is what comes the closest to me as people waste a turn discovering flash fire most of the time and only m2y's psycho boost get's a chance to 2hko (you can use another nature or leftovers to force the 3hko'd but I prefer a defence boost and helmet).

Moonblast actually hits pretty hard for a wall and dents big holes in the only true bulky ghost giratina. This let's you harass or phaze pretty much any magic bouncer to lay rocks. Circle throw also prevents trapping and stops practicaly everything from setting up. With a plethora of resistances and only ground as a 2x weakness, magearna is a total pain to kill without setting up. Plus circle throw actualy dents a little damage and offers decent coverage with moonblast.

Fire moves are so much better than ground moves that people often completely neglect to bring a ground type move to cover steel making magearna near impossible to kill for certan teams. This would not make magearna such of a pain if it could be stalled with a single mon, but only gengar and aegislash will stop you from putting on chip damage on powerless set up sweepers with circle throw and stealth rock and heal on the walls that get switched out.

Magearna's speed is just good enough to outspeed very common slow walls who tend to run min speed to u-turn and avoid core enforcer's effect. Magearna is also pretty powerless against itself (chansey). Therefore it's far from impossible to find opportunities to heal when left at low health. This does also mean chansey can use magearna to heal peacfuly so watch out for that.

This set still has some downsides as it's huge set up bait for gengar and gets washed by strong hard hitters with neutral stabs such as kyogre so make sure to cover that. Safety goggles and leftovers are good items too, but I like to punish u-turn, add to the chip damage and often switch-in magearna on knock off.
This is a cool magearna set and imo is the best ability it can run (with magic bounce being the only other option worth noting).

However I'd suggest a few small changes:
If you have any intention of switching into sceptile you really need those safety goggles, since otherwise a single 2/3 turn sleep will break through (since it 3hkos with the boosts even if you're spdef). This also helps with some mmy who run spore, although this is less common and you lose anyway. It also lets you phaze out gigas once which isn't a bad thing.
I'd definitely run +spdef since for the purposes of stopping contrary they're either special, doing 0 with v-create or 2hkoing regardless with mmx's superpower (fun fact: contrary mmx actually checks this set since it can 2hko you and outspeeds to avoid the 2hko). I'm not sure what else +def is helping with except maybe regigigas which you can't switch into either way and you should probably have a much better switchin. I just can't see what is more useful than avoiding the 2hko from mmy and taking less from -ate boombursts that +def can provide.

The thing about this set I don't like is it can only really beat these threats once by phazing them out before the boosts steamroll over it and you then are left at low health praying to RNGsus to be merciful with whom he drags out.

Overall I like Magearna's typing but the bulk is just too low to be particularly viable imo (although the magic bounce set is mainly to beat other defensive mons so it isn't too big a problem for it).

Just a fun thing I've seen people use is Fleur Cannon with Fairium-Z which lets you do this:
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 444-524 (88 - 103.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Although that is mainly for the bounce sets that don't need the goggles.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
This is a cool magearna set and imo is the best ability it can run (with magic bounce being the only other option worth noting).

However I'd suggest a few small changes:
If you have any intention of switching into sceptile you really need those safety goggles, since otherwise a single 2/3 turn sleep will break through (since it 3hkos with the boosts even if you're spdef). This also helps with some mmy who run spore, although this is less common and you lose anyway. It also lets you phaze out gigas once which isn't a bad thing.
I'd definitely run +spdef since for the purposes of stopping contrary they're either special, doing 0 with v-create or 2hkoing regardless with mmx's superpower (fun fact: contrary mmx actually checks this set since it can 2hko you and outspeeds to avoid the 2hko). I'm not sure what else +def is helping with except maybe regigigas which you can't switch into either way and you should probably have a much better switchin. I just can't see what is more useful than avoiding the 2hko from mmy and taking less from -ate boombursts that +def can provide.

The thing about this set I don't like is it can only really beat these threats once by phazing them out before the boosts steamroll over it and you then are left at low health praying to RNGsus to be merciful with whom he drags out.

Overall I like Magearna's typing but the bulk is just too low to be particularly viable imo (although the magic bounce set is mainly to beat other defensive mons so it isn't too big a problem for it).

Just a fun thing I've seen people use is Fleur Cannon with Fairium-Z which lets you do this:
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 444-524 (88 - 103.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Although that is mainly for the bounce sets that don't need the goggles.

Magearna-Original @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Moonblast
- Circle Throw
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up

I've been playing this tier for quite a while and this set ends up on 70% of my teams because it covers sooo much. I figured some other people should see how well it works.

I came up with this set trying to find a reliable full counter to all the most common contrary users (ray, m2y, m2x, sceptile) which is pretty hard when you consider they could all be running moongeist beam or sunsteel strike. This set is what comes the closest to me as people waste a turn discovering flash fire most of the time and only m2y's psycho boost get's a chance to 2hko (you can use another nature or leftovers to force the 3hko'd but I prefer a defence boost and helmet).

Moonblast actually hits pretty hard for a wall and dents big holes in the only true bulky ghost giratina. This let's you harass or phaze pretty much any magic bouncer to lay rocks. Circle throw also prevents trapping and stops practicaly everything from setting up. With a plethora of resistances and only ground as a 2x weakness, magearna is a total pain to kill without setting up. Plus circle throw actualy dents a little damage and offers decent coverage with moonblast.

Fire moves are so much better than ground moves that people often completely neglect to bring a ground type move to cover steel making magearna near impossible to kill for certan teams. This would not make magearna such of a pain if it could be stalled with a single mon, but only gengar and aegislash will stop you from putting on chip damage on powerless set up sweepers with circle throw and stealth rock and heal on the walls that get switched out.

Magearna's speed is just good enough to outspeed very common slow walls who tend to run min speed to u-turn and avoid core enforcer's effect. Magearna is also pretty powerless against itself (chansey). Therefore it's far from impossible to find opportunities to heal when left at low health. This does also mean chansey can use magearna to heal peacfuly so watch out for that.

This set still has some downsides as it's huge set up bait for gengar and gets washed by strong hard hitters with neutral stabs such as kyogre so make sure to cover that. Safety goggles and leftovers are good items too, but I like to punish u-turn, add to the chip damage and often switch-in magearna on knock off.
Would Spectral Thief over Stealth Rocks work to help against Contrarian threats? (Stealth Rocks can be on a Mold Breaker teammate).

Remember, against Superpower, it not only deals super effective Damage, but it gets +Def on top of +Atk, which allows it to deal better hits and take them as well.

Leftovers can be an option, if you have Misty Terrain support, to avoid Spore. Calcs against MMX
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 171-202 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Magearna Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 188-222 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 115-136 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
P.S. Why not Dragon Tail over Circle Throw to ensure you are Imposterproof? Spectral Thief can be used to stop Fairy-Types, like Xerneus, from setting up.

Spectral Thief also jusifies your Relaxed Nature, as it will underspeed Set-uppers, and makes Magearna a threat to MMY as well, Boosting its Moonblast, in addition to Dragon Tail from taking Superpower from MMX.
Calcs against MMY
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Magearna: 144-172 (39.5 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Magearna Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 158-186 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I think if you are concerned about healing up, you can also use Baneful Bunker to stall Leftovers and trigger Damage;

Magearna-Original @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Baneful Bunker
- Dragon Tail
- Spectral Thief
- Shore Up

Let them Superpower against you, Baneful Bunker, Spectral Thief if they try it again, Baneful Bunker to heal and let the damage sink in (37.75% Poison Damage, and 18.75% HP recovered on your side).

Even if you switch in against a +1 MMX Superpower, it’ll still only 3HKO (Dry Skin to simulate that it can only hit you every other turn with Baneful Bunker and Leftovers and the fact Spectral Thief can reset its +1).

+1 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 171-202 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Dry Skin recovery
 
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All right, I'm here to make some commentary on the state of the metagame and perhaps generate some discussion on the topic. Or maybe it's me complaining? Maybe it's whining? Maybe it's ranting? I don't know, you be the judge of that. Just mind, I'm not advocating any suspects or bans with this, otherwise I'd be in the suspect topic. Heck, I'm rather confident most, if not the entire, BH community would be like "lolno u dumb" if I dropped this for consideration over there. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong?

I'm gonna put this in a hide tag for the inevitable quotes so they don't force tons of scrolling. And for that guy on mobile who doesn't want to scroll past walls of text every time they read a new reply.

Anyway, I wanna talk about pivoting and option denial. Specifically on the former, slow as molasses pivoting on every thing with a base speed of like... less than 101. I've not done a ton of Pokemon battling in general lately because it's been, well, not very exciting lately. And partly because Real Life™, but that's neither here nor there. It's been to the point I've considered just quitting competitive battling. But on a whim, I opted to stream random battles for friends last night while we tried to decide what to do. It was fun and refreshing and exciting. And I think I nailed it pretty quickly: there were barely any pivots. Except Mega-Pidgeot who I kept getting like... every other battle. But the pivots I did get were fast and offensive, they were escaping and avoiding harm, not ponderously bringing in yet another Terrain Band Adapt Ignore All Abilities One-Shot Everything set that couldn't hope to safely sneak in without good prediction otherwise.

Additionally, my abilities usually worked. I usually had my items. I usually had my boosts. And so did my opponents. Dealing with a boosted sweeper wasn't as simple as yawning and clicking Haze/Spectral Thief. I could rely on my Scarf Revenge Killers to actually be able to keep their role rather than losing it 15 turns into the match because the opponent had Knock Off on 5 of their Pokemon. My defensive abilities functioned rather than getting ignored by an attacker or tickled away by a wall with base 3 Special Attack with Core Enforcer.

Was this a randoms only thing where meaningful, thoughtful switching happened regularly? Was randoms the only meta where I could rely on my set to actually function like it was supposed to for more than a turn?

Conveniently, Smogon's main page Twitter showed off matches for the semi-finals for the Smogon Tour 25. It crossed Gen V, VI, and VII OU and, curious, I watched. For reference, here's the first replay, here's the second, and here's the third. Watching the way they switched and tried to outplay and outmaneuver each other, it was almost like watching a game of chess. I could keep up with most of their decisions, but I quickly realized my switching skills had gotten rusty. Meanwhile, they could play well and win without building most of their team to deny the opponent as many options as possible.

Still though, that was pro level play. Curious more, I dusted off an old X/Y OU team and ran off to modern OU with it and played several matches. It was... more like the random battles. Sets that functioned, thoughtful switching, no convenient one-click cure for a sweeper that was being a bother. It felt more engaging rather than just going through the motions of slow pivoting endlessly until I could get my sweeper in on the right opponent to attack before returning to slow pivoting, only pausing to Haze their set-up user or Core Enforce their Poison Healer.

But why couldn't Balanced Hackmons be this more engaging? Then... I remembered, it used to be. I rewatched some old replays and, while there were some Prankster Parting Shot users, Regenvest Volt Switchers, and one or two others, such as a Volt Switch user to ensure it escaped its own Perish Song, U-Turn was hardly being touched. And there were counterplay to the pivots. Set-up could be made to stick but could also be defeated with actual plays. Abilities worked, period. Items... well, Knock Off was kinda common in the replays, so that was still a thing. But here, have my replays as references...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-70301080 - I have two pivots, the AV Regen and the Perish Song user I mentioned. I use Unaware to stop the Belly Drum, but Giratina could have taken a hit and shuffled him out too.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-85041746 - This one is the first iteration of BH UU ever, AFAIK, which was "top 100 Pokemon by usage are banned, plus Imposter" as the only rules. Anyway, another AV Regen pivot on my part. Don't ask why I had Mursharna, I don't remember, I think it was Unaware. Defeat their "loloneshot everything" with priority because, hey, priority actually worked back then!

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-123984064 - No pivoting! And I use Prankster Grudge to beat a set-up sweeper.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-126414053 - This one is very, very long, you may want to speed up to fast at least by about turn 30 since my strategy was... very patient. And wouldn't work in the current meta because almost literally every team has Spectral Haze. Also, almost no pivoting, denial of abilities, etc.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-155016943 - And here I battle who I believe was a Lance alt. Yes, THAT Lance. A lot of (Prankster) Parting Shot, which you can see backfires some, and some ability denial via Normalize (which, at the time, affected Spooky Judgement too, before you ask about that.)


Notice some common themes? Opponents aren't constantly denied their strategies by moves that literally disable core components of Pokemon. Pivoting is uncommon and not always slow, there's a lot of fast, even Prankster fast, pivoting going on combining with some prediction to make sure the new Pokemon can withstand the hit. Otherwise, a lot of calculated (or not so calculated) switching. It's not the constant "lemme sloooowly bring in my wall breaker" nearly every single game on nearly every single team.


What to do about this? I don't friggin' know, I think the stuff to fix my problems would need a lot tinkering with the meta, both more and at a faster rate than I'm betting most would be comfortable with. And probably without the slow, ponderous suspect process that takes a month to do and then months to pass between them. The only thing I can think of would be pet-modding, but I doubt the OM Leaders would permit a BH pet mod.

I mean, there's so much that's forcing the meta into a tiny, role compressed bubble. You can barely set-up because Haze and Spectral Thief are everywhere. Other methods of stopping set-up such because they're outright shut down so easily they're unreliable. Abilities are thrown out the window so easily with Core Enforcer and Mold Breaker moves effectively making sets unreliable after a turn or two or making them just simply irrelevant. Knock Off is... Knock Off still and has a lot of the same issues. And near every wall is a slow pivot now and near every team that's not hyper offense has at least a couple, if not more, pivots. It's super stifling of options and creativity, to the point where it seems "new and original" sets are "Hey guys try using Flashfire on Audino!" instead of like "Hey, here's a set that plays completely different from just about everything else" or "Here's a Pokemon literally nobody considered until now and it actually has function beyond a specific niche." I mean, that stuff happens are on rare occasion, but it's not like the past where the meta would constantly shift and evolve from newly discovered sets.



So yeah, that was long winded. I guess I'm asking, does anyone feel the same way about BH? Or am I just some lone, nostalgia hound pining for the "Wild West" days of BH? Is there anything that can be done about it? Anything that should be done about it? Is there some obvious solution for me hiding in plain sight that wouldn't affect everyone?
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
All right, I'm here to make some commentary on the state of the metagame and perhaps generate some discussion on the topic. Or maybe it's me complaining? Maybe it's whining? Maybe it's ranting? I don't know, you be the judge of that. Just mind, I'm not advocating any suspects or bans with this, otherwise I'd be in the suspect topic. Heck, I'm rather confident most, if not the entire, BH community would be like "lolno u dumb" if I dropped this for consideration over there. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong?

I'm gonna put this in a hide tag for the inevitable quotes so they don't force tons of scrolling. And for that guy on mobile who doesn't want to scroll past walls of text every time they read a new reply.

Anyway, I wanna talk about pivoting and option denial. Specifically on the former, slow as molasses pivoting on every thing with a base speed of like... less than 101. I've not done a ton of Pokemon battling in general lately because it's been, well, not very exciting lately. And partly because Real Life™, but that's neither here nor there. It's been to the point I've considered just quitting competitive battling. But on a whim, I opted to stream random battles for friends last night while we tried to decide what to do. It was fun and refreshing and exciting. And I think I nailed it pretty quickly: there were barely any pivots. Except Mega-Pidgeot who I kept getting like... every other battle. But the pivots I did get were fast and offensive, they were escaping and avoiding harm, not ponderously bringing in yet another Terrain Band Adapt Ignore All Abilities One-Shot Everything set that couldn't hope to safely sneak in without good prediction otherwise.

Additionally, my abilities usually worked. I usually had my items. I usually had my boosts. And so did my opponents. Dealing with a boosted sweeper wasn't as simple as yawning and clicking Haze/Spectral Thief. I could rely on my Scarf Revenge Killers to actually be able to keep their role rather than losing it 15 turns into the match because the opponent had Knock Off on 5 of their Pokemon. My defensive abilities functioned rather than getting ignored by an attacker or tickled away by a wall with base 3 Special Attack with Core Enforcer.

Was this a randoms only thing where meaningful, thoughtful switching happened regularly? Was randoms the only meta where I could rely on my set to actually function like it was supposed to for more than a turn?

Conveniently, Smogon's main page Twitter showed off matches for the semi-finals for the Smogon Tour 25. It crossed Gen V, VI, and VII OU and, curious, I watched. For reference, here's the first replay, here's the second, and here's the third. Watching the way they switched and tried to outplay and outmaneuver each other, it was almost like watching a game of chess. I could keep up with most of their decisions, but I quickly realized my switching skills had gotten rusty. Meanwhile, they could play well and win without building most of their team to deny the opponent as many options as possible.

Still though, that was pro level play. Curious more, I dusted off an old X/Y OU team and ran off to modern OU with it and played several matches. It was... more like the random battles. Sets that functioned, thoughtful switching, no convenient one-click cure for a sweeper that was being a bother. It felt more engaging rather than just going through the motions of slow pivoting endlessly until I could get my sweeper in on the right opponent to attack before returning to slow pivoting, only pausing to Haze their set-up user or Core Enforce their Poison Healer.

But why couldn't Balanced Hackmons be this more engaging? Then... I remembered, it used to be. I rewatched some old replays and, while there were some Prankster Parting Shot users, Regenvest Volt Switchers, and one or two others, such as a Volt Switch user to ensure it escaped its own Perish Song, U-Turn was hardly being touched. And there were counterplay to the pivots. Set-up could be made to stick but could also be defeated with actual plays. Abilities worked, period. Items... well, Knock Off was kinda common in the replays, so that was still a thing. But here, have my replays as references...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-70301080 - I have two pivots, the AV Regen and the Perish Song user I mentioned. I use Unaware to stop the Belly Drum, but Giratina could have taken a hit and shuffled him out too.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-85041746 - This one is the first iteration of BH UU ever, AFAIK, which was "top 100 Pokemon by usage are banned, plus Imposter" as the only rules. Anyway, another AV Regen pivot on my part. Don't ask why I had Mursharna, I don't remember, I think it was Unaware. Defeat their "loloneshot everything" with priority because, hey, priority actually worked back then!

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-123984064 - No pivoting! And I use Prankster Grudge to beat a set-up sweeper.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-126414053 - This one is very, very long, you may want to speed up to fast at least by about turn 30 since my strategy was... very patient. And wouldn't work in the current meta because almost literally every team has Spectral Haze. Also, almost no pivoting, denial of abilities, etc.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-155016943 - And here I battle who I believe was a Lance alt. Yes, THAT Lance. A lot of (Prankster) Parting Shot, which you can see backfires some, and some ability denial via Normalize (which, at the time, affected Spooky Judgement too, before you ask about that.)


Notice some common themes? Opponents aren't constantly denied their strategies by moves that literally disable core components of Pokemon. Pivoting is uncommon and not always slow, there's a lot of fast, even Prankster fast, pivoting going on combining with some prediction to make sure the new Pokemon can withstand the hit. Otherwise, a lot of calculated (or not so calculated) switching. It's not the constant "lemme sloooowly bring in my wall breaker" nearly every single game on nearly every single team.


What to do about this? I don't friggin' know, I think the stuff to fix my problems would need a lot tinkering with the meta, both more and at a faster rate than I'm betting most would be comfortable with. And probably without the slow, ponderous suspect process that takes a month to do and then months to pass between them. The only thing I can think of would be pet-modding, but I doubt the OM Leaders would permit a BH pet mod.

I mean, there's so much that's forcing the meta into a tiny, role compressed bubble. You can barely set-up because Haze and Spectral Thief are everywhere. Other methods of stopping set-up such because they're outright shut down so easily they're unreliable. Abilities are thrown out the window so easily with Core Enforcer and Mold Breaker moves effectively making sets unreliable after a turn or two or making them just simply irrelevant. Knock Off is... Knock Off still and has a lot of the same issues. And near every wall is a slow pivot now and near every team that's not hyper offense has at least a couple, if not more, pivots. It's super stifling of options and creativity, to the point where it seems "new and original" sets are "Hey guys try using Flashfire on Audino!" instead of like "Hey, here's a set that plays completely different from just about everything else" or "Here's a Pokemon literally nobody considered until now and it actually has function beyond a specific niche." I mean, that stuff happens are on rare occasion, but it's not like the past where the meta would constantly shift and evolve from newly discovered sets.

So yeah, that was long winded. I guess I'm asking, does anyone feel the same way about BH? Or am I just some lone, nostalgia hound pining for the "Wild West" days of BH? Is there anything that can be done about it? Anything that should be done about it? Is there some obvious solution for me hiding in plain sight that wouldn't affect everyone?
Ya, most of the reasons I look for new versions of Pokemon sets are due to the fact the game is stale. Not much was brought in from USUM, and let’s be honest, not much (in the # of Pokemon) were brought in during Gen 7 (less than 95 Pokemon right?) And how many made it to Gen 7 BH?
We lost value in Soul Dew Latias and replaced Latios with Necrozma-Ultimate, which is basically a glorified Contrarian user, but also lost Primal-Groudon, etc.

I miss the CFZ, the ability for Dark Types to be impacted by Prankster, and the fact many things are banned like Psychic Surge, and Parental-Bond (at least let Kanga-Mega have it without the Mega evo process)

The game is stagnated into use a Normal Type to avoid Spectral Thief, and use Imprison to avoid Haze (hence my “Don’t Haze me Bro” Imprison, Haze, Shell Smash, Power Trip Simple Gyarados with Gyaradosite Set).

It’s either too easy to set up: Contrary, or too difficult to keep (Prankster Haze). I think things are too extreme limited defensively or offensively so much so that creating Balanced Teams, ironic title within “Balanced Hackmon” teams, are very specific with what must work for their 6 team slot.

I also think that people are being told completely the opposite tips simultaneously, and thus equally counterintuitive, in terms of strategy: “Use Spore” when everyone is told to “Use Safety Goggles”, or your set has to be “Imposterproof” when a teammate that counters it is just as fine (Audino-Mega Imposterproofs your Giratina with Dragon Tail, so you won’t have to self-Imposterproof with Circle Throw, and allows you to use Spectral Thief).

The game is so structured it’s boring, in some cases, because the game is very “do this set with this Pokémon from the VR/setpedia, otherwise you will be a newbie for life”. Sometimes it’s not about being good or bad, but just someone needing a fresh set or alternative, like using Darmanitan-Z to counter Sceptile-Mega, MMX/MMY instead of Alolan-Muk/Slowbro-Mega. D-Z isn’t even on the VR list, even though it can resist more and has more balanced Defenses/Offenses. Sure it has a weakness to SR, and Muk is not very good anyways, but these days it’s harder and harder to find something “new” as the list of established good or bad grows.

Maybe we are just waiting for Gen 8 to add more useful Pokémon that Gen 7 didn’t bring, (I.e. Useful Legends), or we are simply so spoiled with Resources and Information that everything is very linear with regards to something being defined as “good” or “bad”.
 
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I don't think it's so much the quantity of things being brought in being good or bad for the meta, it's what the things do. X/Y brought in a ton, but BH at the core was largely played the same. S/M brought in comparitvely little, but the metagame changed way, way more from it. Although, I definitely agree things are extremely structured in BH right now. You absolutely must have certain components on your team if you're a balanced or defensive archetype while offensive archetypes absolutely must have certain other components. And it's either because a) your other options just don't work well, b) you'll lose to common stuff without them, or c) usually both.

The bans, I think, have largely been healthy, which is where I largely disagree. BH has been a very inclusionist and ban-lite meta since its inception. Which, really worked out well in Gen V since the meta was largely self-correcting and really only needed Sleep clause and a ban on Roarcat to be in a very good place. It worked decently in Gen VI as X/Y was largely self-correcting. I think the turning point was the introduction of Thousand Waves, which is a move so potent you'll auto-lose to certain sets if you don't do specific other things, like putting U-Turn on nearly every passive wall. The other turning point were the discovery of nasty-as-well -ate sets which dominated the meta through multiple versions of -ate clause and outright forced you to bring an -ate check or lose consistently.

Gen VII has really made things worse in those regards since now we have a massive combination of things that completely outright deny entire strategies and each render swaths of sets unviable or unreliable (Core Enforcer, Anchor Shot, Spectral Thief, Dazzling, etc) along with sets that will OHKO your entire team with little effort if you don't bring the right checks/counters (Drum Sunsteel Strike, Specs Surge Psycho Boost, Band Tinted Lens Photon Geyser, etc.) There's very little room to be flexible because doing so gets you shut down excessively hard one way or the other OR you have to jump through so many weird hoops to bypass stuff the team just won't function to begin with (such as my attempt at Baton Pass using mostly Normal-types. It sucks.)

But, the suspect process is way too slow and cumbersome to address this on its own. Combine it with people who disagree on what's a problem, people who continue to assert as few bans as possible, and people who refuse to consider removing things that keep the meta in a stale state because "they're not broken" and, well, things are stagnant.

I mean, that's all my own opinion, but it's how I feel and I'm confident plenty disagree. But, at least nobody is at my throat for expressing my concerns. May or may not change if I find my way over to the BH Discord and bring this up though.


There's so much that, IMO, I feel is problematic that I don't think the systems in place will solve it in any reasonable time frame, if at all. I think BH might need a sort of overhaul. Big problem is I feel the community would, by in large, reject any sort of overhaul. Meanwhile, the OM leaders would probably reject any sort of compromise since that'd require two BH metas.



Okay, that simple reply got a little out of hand...
 
Hi, I'm new to Balanced Hackmons and I was wondering what are some good counters to Pixilate Mega Diance and Groudon with Red Orb? I tried stopping Mega Diance with Registeel and Solgaleo but they usually run V-Create or Precipice Blades and I tried using Giratina to counter Groudon but it used Shell Smash and Fleur Cannon to KO me :(
 
Hi, I'm new to Balanced Hackmons and I was wondering what are some good counters to Pixilate Mega Diance and Groudon with Red Orb? I tried stopping Mega Diance with Registeel and Solgaleo but they usually run V-Create or Precipice Blades and I tried using Giratina to counter Groudon but it used Shell Smash and Fleur Cannon to KO me :(
Groudon, Flash Fire Steels, Soundproof mons like Slowbro-Mega stop Diancie-mega kinda.

Prankster Haze or Unaware mons with Fire-resist and no ground weakness, like Zygarde would probably work. Ho-oh and Assault Vest Zygarde should work but I haven't run the calcs
 
Hi, I'm new to Balanced Hackmons and I was wondering what are some good counters to Pixilate Mega Diance and Groudon with Red Orb? I tried stopping Mega Diance with Registeel and Solgaleo but they usually run V-Create or Precipice Blades and I tried using Giratina to counter Groudon but it used Shell Smash and Fleur Cannon to KO me :(
Soundproof slowbro, as long as they still run sunsteel over moongeist for whatever reason.
 
Also worth noting Fur Coat Mega-Swampert is a good check to many P.Don sets, barring the odd Solar Beam variants. Poison Heal works too, but is more susceptible to switching into a Ground attack. Mega-Garchomp can offensively check P.Don if either it's not running Fleur/Ice STAB or you have Scarf and decent chip damage on Don. Blue Orb / Primordial Sea Kyogre can switch in on a Fire-type move and force out P.Don guaranteed or your money back! Watch for stray Bolt Strikes though.


For Diancie, its a bit niche, but Soundproof Yveltal with King's Shield lures most Pixilate sets and can beat or cripple them depending on the situation. They'll get forced out if they use V-Create due to the speed drops (Shell Smash notwithstanding). The set is ineffective against Dazzling, Contrary, Simple, Magic Guard, and similar sets, however. Sufficiently fast attackers with sufficiently strong attacks can outspeed and OHKO non-Extreme Speed variants with no risk, such as some sets for Mewtwo-Both, Deoxys-A, Ashninja, specs Mega-Manectric, Mega-Sceptile, scarf Mega-Garchomp, etc.
 
Fur Coat MegaPert takes a lot from Solar Blade and Fleur iirc. Fur Coat Arceus can work while Primordial Sea Celesteela can switch in on the Smash, take a thousand arrows, and ko back with scald.
Diancie is really just general ff steel with cele being notable for immune to ground, fur coat chansey, soundproof anything but mainly megabro, pdon, regenvest kyogre, and ho-oh although that dies to head smash. Imposter can alsogenerally cover
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Thanks for all the replies! I didn't even think of Flash Fire lol. I tried Soundproof Mega Slowbro and it worked really well :D
Another Option for Diancie-Mega is: Darmanitan-Zen Mode

Calcs:
252 SpA Darmanitan-Z Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 272-324 (89.4 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock- If Stealth Rocks is absent, Life Orb will recoil Diancie-Mega into a 1HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Diancie-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Z: 140-166 (33.8 - 40%) -- 33.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Darmanitan-Z: 160-187 (38.6 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Slowbro-Mega can take Precipice Blades better due to its typing, but has weaker Special Defense for Diancie’s teammates, while Darmanitan with Fur Coat will surpass Soundproof Slowbro-Mega in Defense, allowing it to check or Counter a wider variety of threats, while still remaining strong on Special Defense.
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
OM! uses Max Revive on the Thread:
“Balanced Hackmons was fully Revived!”

I have been thinking lately of the value of using Sandstream to provide Rock Types more options to take hits due to the Special Defense boosts.

Unlike Snow Warning and Aurora Veil, your team doesn’t need to waste a moveslot, or an extra turn, on Aurora Veil, nor is it removed by Defog.

Consider Eviolite Fur Coat Rhydon, Sand Rush Life Orb/Choice Band Tyranitar-Mega, Regirock Fur Coat/Sandstream, and to help anything on your team with Shore Up.

Diancie-Mega and Nihilego also get to use Weather Ball for stronger special Rock STAB that surpasses the power of Revelation Dance (Power Gem is terribly weak). I don’t think these are ever going to be used for it, but just to make a point of the new move option.

Are there any viable sand team strategies? Keep in mind, the whole team doesn’t need to rely on Sandstream, but since you can have up to 3 setters (2 standard and 1 more if you Mega Tyranitar), your team should not shy away from boosting Rock Types. Keep in mind that the chip damage on this weather can wreck Sturdy, and Focus Sash Damage and accumulate with Rock Helmet, Leech Seed, and Hazards from your team, or Life Orb on theirs.

Worthy of consideration:
Abilities-
Sandstream
Sand Rush
Sand Force (Boost Doom Desire, Sunsteel Strike, Diamond Storm, Precipice Blades, and other moves).

Notable Rock-type Beneficiaries:
Tyranitar-Mega
Diancie-Mega/Diancie (listed on VR)
Regirock
Rhydon (Eviolite)
Stakataka
 
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anaconja

long day at job
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
OM! uses Max Revive on the Thread:
“Balanced Hackmons was fully Revived!”

I have been thinking lately of the value of using Sandstream to provide Rock Types more options to take hits due to the Special Defense boosts.

Unlike Snow Warning and Aurora Veil, your team doesn’t need to waste a moveslot, or an extra turn, on Aurora Veil, nor is it removed by Defog.

Consider Eviolite Fur Coat Rhydon, Sand Rush Life Orb/Choice Band Tyranitar-Mega, Regirock Fur Coat/Sandstream, and to help anything on your team with Shore Up.

Diancie-Mega and Nihilego also get to use Weather Ball for stronger special Rock STAB that surpasses the power of Revelation Dance (Power Gem is terribly weak). I don’t think these are ever going to be used for it, but just to make a point of the new move option.

Are there any viable sand team strategies? Keep in mind, the whole team doesn’t need to rely on Sandstream, but since you can have up to 3 setters (2 standard and 1 more if you Mega Tyranitar), your team should not shy away from boosting Rock Types. Keep in mind that the chip damage on this weather can wreck Sturdy, and Focus Sash Damage and accumulate with Rock Helmet, Leech Seed, and Hazards from your team, or Life Orb on theirs.

Worthy of consideration:
Abilities-
Sandstream
Sand Rush
Sand Force (Boost Doom Desire, Sunsteel Strike, Diamond Storm, Precipice Blades, and other moves).
Teams that rely on sand seem viable in theory, but kind of fail in practice because sand doesn't boost the power of moves, unlike rain. This makes it hard to break through fat walls like Slowbro-Mega and Kyogre-Primal. The Special Defense boost may sound useful, but the fact that Rock is a pretty terrible defensive type hurts it a lot, having weaknesses to Fighting, Ground, Steel, which are all very common. The Shore Up boost is really nice, though, and Rock does have a few useful resistances in Fire and Flying.

Here was a team that I used (to moderate success) that utilized Tyranitar-Mega's Sand Stream:
Tyranitar-Mega @ Smooth Rock / Safety Goggles
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Diamond Storm
- Knock Off
- Shore Up
- U-turn

Zygarde-Complete @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spectral Thief
- Shore Up
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Psychium Z
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Close Combat
- V-create
- Swords Dance

Aegislash @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shore Up
- U-turn
- Defog
- Spectral Thief

Slowbro-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot
- Spectral Thief
- Shore Up
- Parting Shot

Kyogre-Primal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Revelation Dance
- Spectral Thief
- Rapid Spin
- U-turn

In terms of setters, having only one is good enough; I don't see the point of having two setters, let alone three. Sand Force sounds fairly interesting but I have yet to put it on a serious team.
 
For sand stuff, here's an older attempt of mine that'd probably need work. It's certainly usable, but it needs some stuff shuffled around for the current ladder and tournaments. So, use it in its current form at your own risk. I might get around to modernizing it someday in the future, but no promises.

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- U-turn

Fast lead sand setter. Fast pivot lets it flee against nearly everything while chipping in the process. It's not a dedicated attacker, but can hit some stuff hard enough to justify carrying moves. Roost gives it longevity, but must be used against non-threatening foes. High speed isn't a drawback most of the time since you'll rarely run into other weather leads and Aerodactyl will force out most Drought and Snow Warning users anyway.

Cresselia @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heart Swap
- Baton Pass
- Recover
- Wish

This set dates the team and probably ought to be replaced with like... Spectral Thief Maudino or something. Good when it actually works though!

Regirock @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Heal Order
- Parting Shot
- Core Enforcer
- Defog

Regirock is an extremely sturdy wall in the sand. Just normal slow pivoting wall shennanigans here. Entrainment is also viable over Core Enforcer. You could also probably cram Diamond Storm on there somewhere since Regirock has enough attack power to be a nuisance to offensive Pokemon.

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Stealth Rock
- Psystrike
- Secret Sword

Hazard setter, sleep spreader, and hits stuff. By no means a nuke, but repeated hits can wear stuff down. The set probably needs updating or replacing though in the current age.

Yveltal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- King's Shield
- Knock Off
- Circle Throw
- Sucker Punch

Another set that probably dates the team, but Adrian's old PH Yveltal set is still really good and annoying to deal with. I ran Spectral over Sucker Punch on one of my RMTs and it worked out rather nicely, so may be worth considering. Just watch out if you Knock Off a Focus Sash on an offensive mon, since it'll probably be Dazzling.

Garchomp-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Dragon Hammer
- Sunsteel Strike
- Trick

Pretty standard wall breaker, Sunsteel is mostly for stubborn Goggles Shedinja and Fur Coat Fairies. And I guess maybe Fur Coat Regice if that ever becomes a thing? This set used to be Primal Groudon with V-Create over Dragon Hammer but... we kinda banned that and this is a trace of a brief moment of me trying to modernize the team before I went chasing after some other new shiny instead.

Or if you want to go into really olden days, I used Sand Rush Terrakion here back in the old X/Y edition of this team. Experiment with that if you're feeling particularly brave!
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
I didn’t get notified that there was a reply. In that case I am cutting and pasting my M-Aero Calcs here.

Sand Force Choice Band Sunsteel Strike = 195 Base power, Precipice Blades = 236 Base Power... without STAB.

Keep in mind Life Orb Magic Guard Head Smash (1.3 X 150 = 195) = Sand Force Choice Band Diamond Storm (100 X 1.5 = 150 x 1.3 = 195).

Aerodactyl-Mega breaks walls, like literally 1HKOs them.

Damage Calcs: *Note After means - I included the -18.75% Damage from Stealth Rocks + Sandstream; set HP at 81% holding Safety Goggles
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Aerodactyl-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia in Sand: 432-510 (103.8 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Aerodactyl-Mega Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Audino-Mega in Sand: 322-380 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after including Sandstream and Stealth Rocks damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Aerodactyl-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel in Sand: 340-402 (93.4 - 110.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

For a Nuke:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Aerodactyl-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Sand: 375-442 (84.4 - 99.5%) -- 100% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Aerodactyl-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina in Sand: 375-442 (74.4 - 87.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after factoring in Stealth Rocks and Sandstream damage (81.25% HP)

Not bad for a Nuetral Hit!
Survivability under Sandstream:
+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega in Sand: 259-305 (71.1 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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OM! uses Max Revive on the Thread:
“Balanced Hackmons was fully Revived!”

I have been thinking lately of the value of using Sandstream to provide Rock Types more options to take hits due to the Special Defense boosts.

Unlike Snow Warning and Aurora Veil, your team doesn’t need to waste a moveslot, or an extra turn, on Aurora Veil, nor is it removed by Defog.

Consider Eviolite Fur Coat Rhydon, Sand Rush Life Orb/Choice Band Tyranitar-Mega, Regirock Fur Coat/Sandstream, and to help anything on your team with Shore Up.

Diancie-Mega and Nihilego also get to use Weather Ball for stronger special Rock STAB that surpasses the power of Revelation Dance (Power Gem is terribly weak). I don’t think these are ever going to be used for it, but just to make a point of the new move option.

Are there any viable sand team strategies? Keep in mind, the whole team doesn’t need to rely on Sandstream, but since you can have up to 3 setters (2 standard and 1 more if you Mega Tyranitar), your team should not shy away from boosting Rock Types. Keep in mind that the chip damage on this weather can wreck Sturdy, and Focus Sash Damage and accumulate with Rock Helmet, Leech Seed, and Hazards from your team, or Life Orb on theirs.

Worthy of consideration:
Abilities-
Sandstream
Sand Rush
Sand Force (Boost Doom Desire, Sunsteel Strike, Diamond Storm, Precipice Blades, and other moves).

Notable Rock-type Beneficiaries:
Tyranitar-Mega
Diancie-Mega/Diancie (listed on VR)
Regirock
Rhydon (Eviolite)
Stakataka
Sand had more of a niche last gen imo where you could spam stuff like Sould Dew M-latios. This gen I feel it's a bit lackluster, but it always has niches.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
where are u getting these calcs dude

252+ SpA Galvanize Xurkitree Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega in Sand: 408-482 (112 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 372-440 (102.1 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (sand and terrain cancel each other out)

i'm not going to criticize the set (it has some potential although head smash recoil is annoying) but please double check your calcs before you post them. thanks
 
252 SpA Galvanize Manectric-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 464-548 (127.4 - 150.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This would actually be the more likely calculation for Manectric since Galvanize is its main ability. Sheer Force Manectric is a niche set on an already niche Pokemon. But non-Sheer Force is even more niche. Sand and E-Terrain are both up, but calculator doesn't display them when you have both set since, as Gurpreet said, they cancel each other.

Aero is faster though unless Manectric runs a speed nature and Aero doesn't.
 
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pazza

Banned deucer.
Where are u getting your Nature dude

You included a Modest Nature, so your numbers are going to be higher on Xurkitree no matter what.

I’m not going to criticize the point, but please double-check the nature in the Calcs before you post it. thanks.
What is the point of running +speed.
 

pazza

Banned deucer.
Scarf (397 without Timid; 436 with Timid)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Galvanize Xurkitree Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 303-357 (83.2 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Galvanize Xurkitree Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Galvanize Xurkitree Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 303-357 (93.5 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Galvanize Xurkitree Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 184-217 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Galvanize Xurkitree Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 342-403 (83.4 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Galvanize Xurkitree Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 208-246 (50.7 - 60%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 280-330 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Xurkitree Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 170-202 (33.7 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 656-772 (103.1 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Xurkitree Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 400-472 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Insane power gap.

IMO Power > Speed because this set is made to take down fat stuff
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
As I said theres no reason to run timid if your running specs and the scarf set is bad because its weak af
You should take that up with the article author.

They say it’s to outrun neutral base 90 Speed Pokemon, such as Primal-Kyogre, which is arguably its biggest target.
 

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