BH Balanced Hackmons

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

Paralysis has been much talked about lately. Its presence within the Balanced Hackmons metagame has been called into question, and it seems as if some people would like tiering action. In this post, I'll talk about para's impact on the meta, and my thoughts of para, along with what possible tiering action might, and might not look like.

Paralysis in BH

Paralysis has been a tool used primarily for speed control. In a metagame where many pokemon are between 90-100 base speed it is natural for paralysis to play such a prominent role. Currently, paralysis is used most frequently on Ho-oh - to check Eternatus, on regenvest - as a means of crippling, on Prankster - as a last minute ditch to cripple an offensive pokemon, and on Fur Coat Lunala. Its speed control is also seen on offensive pokemon like Regigigas and Palkia, which want to paralyze and be faster than Zamzenta-Crowned.

However, the paralysis effect goes beyond speed control, which is the primary point of this discussion. On every turn, a paralysed pokemon has a 25% chance of not making a move, i.e. getting paralyzed. This 25% para chance is by nature uncompetitive. Thus, is it at times used on offensive pokemon like Regigigas and Xerneas for muscling past checks throughout long term games.

Paralysis over the course of long games, which bh games tend to be, can make its presence very sharply felt. Throughout OMPL, there have been numerous games decided by parahax, where a pokemon is paralyzed at a crucial moment. This obviously isn’t fun, it doesn’t feel competitive, and it fucking sucks to go out on RNG. So, should there be tiering action on paralysis inducing moves, or paralysis in general?

Keeping Paralysis in check

Well, let's talk about how to stop paralysis. To list them off quickly, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce (glare), ground types, electric types, aromatherapy, jungle healing, dark types (prank glare), and the incredibly niche comatose & Flower Veil pokemon.

Poison Heal pokemon are incredibly strong at switching into passive nuzzle & glare pokemon (regenvest and prankster). Ground pokemon such as Zyg-C are very good at switching into nuzzle Ho-oh and Regigigas. Magic Bounce, is nice if glare was scouted on a poison heal or prankster pokemon.The rest are more game plan esq / niche, but still definitely viable.

I believe that these tools are enough to have switch-ins for passive paralyzers and for the more aggressive ones. I also believe that, if a team doesn’t have a switch in, generally knowing who you can allow to be paralyzed, and having a dedicated “para sack mon” is generally enough, as long as a game plan was formed for the passive paralysis pokemon and Ho-oh (which is 100% necessary) and for other paralysis pokemon such as Regigigas. The rest I believe most teams have the opportunity to generally outplay.

However, despite all this, para hax still happens. Along the way, losing to paralysis at some point is inevitable. This has been very evident in OMPL, as it’s happened multiple times. BUT, bringing multiple para pokemon per team in a para heavy team mirror match has been very common in OMPL, which basically means in long drawn out games, losing to parahax is inevitable, because one side will get screwed over at the pivotal turn - if they did not gameplan correctly. Thus, many people in the community would appreciate some tiering action on para.

Tiering action on paralysis

I personally would endorse a suspect test instead of a council vote. This is mainly because from my experience of the metagame, building and playing, I feel as if paralysis’ place in the metagame is justified (I’m also anxious about Eternatus if para is free). Since I am pretty stubborn on this, I believe it might be best for the community to make the decision in case my perspective of the meta is warped in some way or another.

Potential tiering action

1. Ban Nuzzle
2. Ban Glare and Thunder Wave
3. Ban Nuzzle, Glare, and Thunder Wave
4. Paralysis Clause
5. No tier action

Potential effect of tiering action

1. This would eliminate passive paralysis users, such as regenvesters. This would greatly nerf Ho-oh as it can now more easily be countered by magic bounce. Glare’s presence would still keep sweepers and Eternatus in check.

2. This mainly affects prank glare users as a last minute ditch to check sweepers. These pokemon become more passive. Ground pokemon become a much more reliable check to paralysis inducing moves. Nuzzle can still be used on Ho-oh and regenvesters to check Eternatus.

Some brief thoughts as well, I’ve personally felt like this interaction is currently the closest to the precedent that was previously used to ban cramorant (It simply spreads paralysis too easily) because you essentially sack your prankster pokemon for a sweeper.

3. No more of the big paralysis inducing moves. Games become a lot less rng dependent. Eternatus can potentially get out of hand. Regenvest and Prankster pokemon get very nerfed.

4. I mentioned a paralysis clause. But I’m not sure how this is possible without nerfing the game, because of moves like Thunder Bolt. Someone would have to explain what a paralysis clause might look like, because I sure don’t.

5. Paralysis remains within the metagame. Nuzzle and Glare remain as premium forms of speed control, and long term utility. Games where both teams rely on paralysis, without great paralysis control inevitably result in death by parahax for one of the players. There are still occasions where para heavy teams still break through well structured teams from unfortunate rng. However, the counterplay to paralysis is deemed enough and people structure their teams to have better counter play to paralysis. This is where I currently stand.

Something that’s been on my mind.

LET'S TALK ABOUT BOLT BEAK.

Bolt beak was banned after Intrepid Sword and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen. It was deemed that there was an intrinsic brokenness of the move that was not attributed to these two pokemon. A few months after the Bolt Beak ban, Zacian-Crowned was banned. However, looking at the metagame I feel like there’s a chance that Bolt Beak might be healthy. I’m currently looking at the abusers (not type related, i.e. Zekrom and Regieleki) and I feel like there aren’t any too crazy ones. Tough Claws BandedKartana sets can potentially be very very good, but Bolt Strike does similar things. CB Kyurem-Black might be incredible with Bolt Beak. Its mold breaker set with Bolt Strike would remain unchanged besides becoming more consistent. There aren’t really any mixed pokemon that might abuse it too much besides like Palkia to break through Tapu Fini (but then again it can still run Zap Cannon or Bolt Strike). I believe that because there doesn’t seem to be any too oppressive users of Bolt Beak after the Zacian-Crowned ban it can potentially be reintroduced into the metagame. I personally would love to see Zekrom, and Zeraora / Regieleki reintroduced again as awesome threats, which might shake things up nicely. I’d love to get some discussion on this :)

SO

What are your thoughts on Paralysis? Do you think it’s fine, should there be tiering action? If so, what and why? I’d love to hear what you all have to say, so that we finish the last stretch of our metagame with great gusto!

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

Hi, random short post about the things we know/can speculate on for Gen 9 BH since people keep asking questions. Important changes (that we know to be important) will be highlighted in Bold.
This is the SV trailer btw.
(Note: when referring to PLA moves, stat changes are compressed into offensive and defensive stat changes)

• Combee's cry can be heard at 1:21. Heal Order may be in the game, meaning more 50% recovery moves -> less likely to run into imprison shenanigans and have your move being the sealed one. Vespiquen is in SS and Heal Order is absent though, so no guarantee.
• Petilil at 1:32. This means Hisuian Lilligant should be in the game, which means Victory Dance - a Legends Arceus move that gives an attack buff, defence buff and a 50% damage increase - is likely to make an appearance. This, if unnerfed, is probably banworthy, but nothing has been confirmed as to whether PLA's arguably busted moves will be nerfed and/or changed (see Stone Axe / PLA Shadow Force, which boosts evasion and is 1 turn)
• Clauncher at 1:43. Maybe Mega Launcher gets some busted moves?
• Swablu at 1:45. Idk who still uses Cotton Guard but it's there.
• Pikachu at 1:46. Light Ball imp will still exist, and the overwhelming likelihood is that Nuzzle will as well (whoop de fucking doo).
• Blissey at 1:50. The main imp mons remain, unless they do something whack like removing Eviolite for some reason.
• Magnemite at 1:53. Magnet Pull getting banned again.
• I forgot where to look for it (idk if i'm blind but I don't see it in the trailer) but apparently Hisuian Zorua is confirmed, meaning Hisuian Zoroark is and thus Bitter Malice - which is Hex but it applies Frostbite (a PLA status that is basically special burn). No clue if Frostbite is making it in, but this move is going to be some madness. Note that it's effect rate is 30%, and in PLA it has the same PP as Hex but 5 less base power.

Speaking of PLA moves, none of the below is officially confirmed but we can infer that most/all PLA mons will make it in, meaning:

• Ursaluna, a Normal/Ground type with 130/140/105/45/80/50 stats, and it's signature move Headlong Rush (ground type Close Combat). No longer a reliance on PreciMiss Blades, can probably replicate PH Regigigas if that or Slaking aren't in.
• Hisuian Typhlosion - worse Blacephalon, but has a signature move Infernal Parade, which is Bitter Malice but burn instead of frostbite.
• Wyrdeer and it's Psyshield bash (a weak Psychic move and gives you Cosmic Power boosts) aren't likely to have a significant impact.
• Kleavor and it's signature Stone Axe - whilst Kleavor itself is basically just Armaldo (slow Bug/Rock with good attack), Stone Axe is interesting. In PLA, Stealth Rock and Spikes are now weak moves that apply residual damage to the target whenever they move (damage is equal to a 25 BP move from the setter). Whether it retains this residual damage property, or actually just sets rocks, is to be seen.
• Sneasler and it's signature Dire Claw - Sneasler itself is a fast, frail physical attacker. Dire Claw is a weak (60BP) move that has a 50% chance to inflict one of Posion, Paralyze or Drowsy (PLA's sleep). Banned under sleep moves clause, otherwise not really noteworthy.
• Overqwil is itself unremarkable, but it's signature Barb Barrage is Poison-type Bitter Malice that inflicts Poison instead of Frostbite. It's physical though, so I don't really know what can use it well outside of Mega Beedrill if that makes a comeback.
• Enamorus is Fairy/Flying, therefore is likely to be a menace and a half. It's Incarnate stats are threatening, with a spread of 74/115/70/135/80/106, and it's Therian stats make it bulky AF by shifting it's Def/SpDef/Spe to 110/100/46. I can see this seeing high usage, and is likely to be the premier Pixilate user if Xerneas and Magearna are absent (which is likely). It's signature, Springtide Storm, is equally nuts - when used by Enamorus-I, it has a 30% chance to raise the user's offences and defences, and when by Enamorus-T, it has a 30% chance to lower the target's offences and defences. 95BP and 80 Accuracy. Note that, since the move is dependant on the user's form, it may be one of the 'Fails if not used by X species or something transformed into it' moves, similar to Hyperspace Hole / Hyperspace Fury.

Some other noteworthy moves which were added to existing mons:

• The storm moves - Bleakwind Storm, Sandsear Storm and Wildbolt Storm. These are the Genies' signatures, each with 95 base power, 80 accuracy and a 30% chance to inflict Frostbite, Burn and Paralysis respectively. I suspect these might be niche STAB options but otherwise aren't likely to be used due to their accuracy.
• Mystical Power - a signature of the Lake Spirits that raises offences if the user's offensive stats are higher, and defences if the user's defences are higher. It is unclear whether this compares Physical or Special stats.
• Shelter - Hisuian Goodra's signature. raises defences and evasion. Banned under evasion clause.
• Lunar Blessing - Cresselia's signature. cures status, heals 50% and raises evasion. Banned under evasion clause, but even without that it'd be silly unbalanced.
• Take Heart - Manaphy and Phione's signature. Cures status and raises offensive and defensive stats. I can definitely see this getting use on offensive speedsters that want to shake off Paralysis without Heal Bell support.
• Power Shift - Swaps Atk with Def and Sp. Atk with Sp. Def. Mixed attacking Shuckle anyone?

Now for the biggies - Origin Dialga, Origin Palkia and Legend Plate. There are no confirmations on any of these, and Legend Plate either doesn't make it in or gets banned IMO, but i'll talk about them regardless.

• Origin Dialga swaps Attack and Special Defence compared to base Dialga - meaning it has 100/120/120 bulk. Direct upgrade IMO, vest Dialga users popping off.
• Origin Palkia swaps Attack and Speed compared to base Palkia - it now has 100/150/120 offenses. Palkia's viability will very much be tied to the presence of Fishious Rend and Dragon Energy, and if we assume they are in, Palkia-O's viability will be determined by whether the drop in Attack is worth the speed tier (since, currently, 100 -> 120 doesn't really change anything except for outspeeding Kartana and Blacephalon).
• Legend Plate. I don't even need to elaborate how this thing is omega busted and will be insta-banned, but for the uneducated, Legend Plate Arceus will transform into the type that is most advantageous against the target when it uses Judgement, with the outgoing Judgement being of that type. For example, targeting a Rhyperior with Judgement will make Arceus Grass type (Grass is chosen over water as Grass resists one of Rhyperior's STABs), and THEN fire off a STAB-boosted Grass Judgement. Given that this means you have literally perfect coverage in ONE move slot, a knock/trick sponge, AND with Arceus' stats I don't see how this would ever remain. Since there are no held items in PLA, it's unknown if Legend Plate gives the 20% damage boost that the regular plates do.

That concludes everything relevant that can feasibly be understood/inferred from the one trailer we have. If I missed anything, chances are I ignored it because it's not relevant enough to bring up (or i'm just stupid, that too).

And just by the way everyone. Even though I do love reading stuff like this, it is a little distracting, and not exactly relevant to gen8bh. I believe it's best to focus our discussion on the current metagame instead of speculating on gen9bh. (I still luv you tho Tea Guzzler )

 

[Nihilslave]

I'm generally very conservative about any meta change. However para needs to get talked about more since people are keeping complaining about it. I personally don't have a specific idea towards it. So I'm just expressing here my attitudes to some parts in XxSevagxX's thread.

Potential tiering action

1. Ban Nuzzle
2. Ban Glare and Thunder Wave
3. Ban Nuzzle, Glare, and Thunder Wave
4. Paralysis Clause
5. No tier action

1. Acceptable. But if there's a suspect I'll possibly vote DNB. Nuzzle is the most spammable para move in the meta. And once it's gone there could be various choices of mbounce mons to keep your team away from para. Mold Breaker + Glare seems still threatening but it needs an ability slot so I don't think many teams will use that.
2. NO, NEVER. You might think ground-type mons are now good to block para but glance and rend are still here, and they don't even need a stab user thanks to their high powers. Prank Glare is never the same as the no-brainer cramorant since people have to think when choosing to put glare on a prank mon, and still need a turn to click the glare move.
3. Better than 2 since it's a beautiful and almost full removal of para. At least it makes people who hate para happy.
4. If I have to choose one between 1~4 I'll choose this. How does Relic Song work with Sleep Clause?
5. Another good choice for me.

LET'S TALK ABOUT BOLT BEAK.

No more 120+ power moves plz.

Best Tiering Action

Add Groundon-Primal to the game.

Better Than The Best

Free NDBH.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

ok yes i will calm down on the gen 9

Potential tiering action

1. Ban Nuzzle
2. Ban Glare and Thunder Wave
3. Ban Nuzzle, Glare, and Thunder Wave
4. Paralysis Clause
5. No tier action

1. This seems like the most reasonable option. Ultimately, it is subjective as to whether Nuzzle or 'Status Para Moves' (Glare, TWave, SSpore) is more broken, but I personally think Nuzzle is since, with it gone, Magic Bounce becomes THE para counterplay (unless you're the crackhead purposefully glaring on mbounce to use psycho shift). If this were to be suspected, I would most likely vote Ban, because IMO it is far too splashable for the massive impact it has on games.
2. I personally don't see how this fixes the problem. Para is still left without viable counterplay (since Nuzzle is the issue), and all this would really serve to do is to stop Prankster mons clicking Glare on the turn they die, which is not at all problematic.
3. Removing all of these I feel would make the meta certainly more fun, but heavily offense-oriented simply due to the fact that there is nothing really to slow down offensive menaces outside of Prank Wisp or Webs - I would not recommend going with this option. If... ahem... a certain status effect was in the game, this could maybe be justified, but it isn't so here we are.
4. No. This is functionally the same as removing Paralysis entirely except there's still the chance of RNG on the para sack, and only being able to stun one enemy without letting you choose what gets stunned (sleep clause) is just poor IMO.
5. Would not recommend personally. If it's almost universally agreed on that Para creates unhealthy gameplay, then letting it sit 'just to see what happens down the road' isn't going to accomplish anything, people will still complain, etc etc. Teams specifically having to prepare 1. how to avoid losing offensive mons' arguably strongest tool, 2. to deal with potential unfortunate RNG and 3. doing both of these with a whole 3 Nuzzle immunities and 1 Para immunity, AND building an actual good team doesn't seem as healthy gameplay to me.

BOLT BEAK

I would not generally be opposed to a Bolt Beak freedom suspect. This is for a few reasons:

• Similar to Fishious Rend, Beak has 1 whole STAB abuser in Zekrom (which is actually worse than Palkia in terms of damage since there is no Lustrous Orb equivalent and Dragon Energy comes off of Palkia's higher Sp. Atk and orb).
• The list of mons able to run Bolt Beak effectively is fairly slim. Zekrom, Xerneas and The Dogs (all 3 forms) are the main suspects. Zekrom will use it as STAB, and Xerneas and Dogs are likely using it to destroy Ho-Oh without needing to worry about Desolate Land.

I personally do not think that Kyurem-Black and Palkia will be able to make significant use out of Bolt Beak, which could make the move more manageable. This is mainly down to their checks:

• Palkia's only true (and semi-viable) check is Prankster Tapu Fini, since this threatens Paralysis and isn't troubled by Fishious Rend or Dragon Energy (even if boosted by Shift Gear). If it wants to destroy Fini, a move other than Beak is likely to be preferred - Spikes and VS can turn Fini's entry into Momentum, and Bolt Strike does more damage against a recover-spamming Fini and also opens up the chance of a 20% Paralysis. Bolt Strike actually out-damages recoverspam provided it doesn't miss (Strike does 51.1 - 60.4% on Bold Fini). This is Palkia's only real instance of wanting to run Electric coverage since Desolate Land Ho-Oh is both Sap fodder and also dies to 2 Dragon Energies.
• Kyurem-Black is unlikely to run Bolt Beak due to 1. not gaining many extra kills over Bolt Strike, 2. Precipice Blades is generally preferred over Electric Coverage and the free-ing of Bolt Beak to reduce Water's viability would only add to this, and 3. Improofing would become harder. Let's take MINER'S LUNG as an example improof:

This is an improof for Shift Gear / Glacial Lance / V-create / Electric Coverage. Darm-Zen can also be used here to match better into Rend Xerneas, but i'm just using coal because of the higher physdef.
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Coalossal: 260-307 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This would mean that Coalossal, if unchipped, has a 50% chance to die to a crit Bolt Beak on the turn it comes in. Additionally, it needs to be at high enough HP else the Kyurem cannot be improofed.
Meanwhile, +1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Coalossal: 199-235 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
This comes at a significantly more manageable level. The only real drawback to this is the Para chance, which you can FURTHER negate:
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Coalossal: 153-181 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
PFists gets every necessary KO on the waters, doesn't miss, doesn't risk Paralysis AND is easily improofable. IMO this would be a direct upgrade to Bolt Beak on this Kyurem except for specifically destroying PSea Steels (at which point why are you not using Blades).

Furthermore, Bolt Beak being introduced gives newfound viability to not only the Paralysis-immune Zekrom, but also the Electric-Immune Groudon and Zygarde-C. Do I think this is a substitute for action on Paralysis? No. Do I think it would solve many of the problems of the meta when combined with Para action? Yes.

tl;dr - suspect nuzzle, free bolt beak.
(edit: i never played when beak was freed, so i understand my position may be skewed or otherwise based on 0 experience)
edit 2: realised before losr's post but never updated until now, yeah i was wrong, beak is god coverage do not unban

 

[willdbeast]

SO

What are your thoughts on Paralysis? Do you think it’s fine, should there be tiering action? If so, what and why? I’d love to hear what you all have to say, so that we finish the last stretch of our metagame with great gusto!

Someone host a double elim no para move tourney and see what happens

 

[stephen78548]

Paralysis has been much talked about lately. Its presence within the Balanced Hackmons metagame has been called into question, and it seems as if some people would like tiering action. In this post, I'll talk about para's impact on the meta, and my thoughts of para, along with what possible tiering action might, and might not look like.

Paralysis in BH

Paralysis has been a tool used primarily for speed control. In a metagame where many pokemon are between 90-100 base speed it is natural for paralysis to play such a prominent role. Currently, paralysis is used most frequently on Ho-oh - to check Eternatus, on regenvest - as a means of crippling, on Prankster - as a last minute ditch to cripple an offensive pokemon, and on Fur Coat Lunala. Its speed control is also seen on offensive pokemon like Regigigas and Palkia, which want to paralyze and be faster than Zamzenta-Crowned.

However, the paralysis effect goes beyond speed control, which is the primary point of this discussion. On every turn, a paralysed pokemon has a 25% chance of not making a move, i.e. getting paralyzed. This 25% para chance is by nature uncompetitive. Thus, is it at times used on offensive pokemon like Regigigas and Xerneas for muscling past checks throughout long term games.

Paralysis over the course of long games, which bh games tend to be, can make its presence very sharply felt. Throughout OMPL, there have been numerous games decided by parahax, where a pokemon is paralyzed at a crucial moment. This obviously isn’t fun, it doesn’t feel competitive, and it fucking sucks to go out on RNG. So, should there be tiering action on paralysis inducing moves, or paralysis in general?

Keeping Paralysis in check

Well, let's talk about how to stop paralysis. To list them off quickly, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce (glare), ground types, electric types, aromatherapy, jungle healing, dark types (prank glare), and the incredibly niche comatose & Flower Veil pokemon.

Poison Heal pokemon are incredibly strong at switching into passive nuzzle & glare pokemon (regenvest and prankster). Ground pokemon such as Zyg-C are very good at switching into nuzzle Ho-oh and Regigigas. Magic Bounce, is nice if glare was scouted on a poison heal or prankster pokemon.The rest are more game plan esq / niche, but still definitely viable.

I believe that these tools are enough to have switch-ins for passive paralyzers and for the more aggressive ones. I also believe that, if a team doesn’t have a switch in, generally knowing who you can allow to be paralyzed, and having a dedicated “para sack mon” is generally enough, as long as a game plan was formed for the passive paralysis pokemon and Ho-oh (which is 100% necessary) and for other paralysis pokemon such as Regigigas. The rest I believe most teams have the opportunity to generally outplay.

However, despite all this, para hax still happens. Along the way, losing to paralysis at some point is inevitable. This has been very evident in OMPL, as it’s happened multiple times. BUT, bringing multiple para pokemon per team in a para heavy team mirror match has been very common in OMPL, which basically means in long drawn out games, losing to parahax is inevitable, because one side will get screwed over at the pivotal turn - if they did not gameplan correctly. Thus, many people in the community would appreciate some tiering action on para.

Tiering action on paralysis

I personally would endorse a suspect test instead of a council vote. This is mainly because from my experience of the metagame, building and playing, I feel as if paralysis’ place in the metagame is justified (I’m also anxious about Eternatus if para is free). Since I am pretty stubborn on this, I believe it might be best for the community to make the decision in case my perspective of the meta is warped in some way or another.

Potential tiering action

1. Ban Nuzzle
2. Ban Glare and Thunder Wave
3. Ban Nuzzle, Glare, and Thunder Wave
4. Paralysis Clause
5. No tier action

SO

What are your thoughts on Paralysis? Do you think it’s fine, should there be tiering action? If so, what and why? I’d love to hear what you all have to say, so that we finish the last stretch of our metagame with great gusto!

so para has been absolutely no fun in BH just take a look at cram.... i think it should be addressed its kinda why ive taken a step back because of long games coming down to one mistake and para just takes the whole match

this being said it does offer a lot of speed control and makes eternatus much more manageable. which i believe its only saving grace so here's my thoughts

1. probably the easiest to implement the counter play would be far easier, you dont have to run a ground type anymore which can diversify the teams a bit more, though you can still get by without one rn.

2. most likely does nothing as nuzzle was the premier setter of para anyways as both glare and twave die so easily to Mbounce and there is no easy counter to nuzzle like that

3. the lesser of two evils then all you have to worry about is no guard zap cannon which i believe would be vastly much easier to deal with then prank glare/twave or nuzzle since nuzzle has an ungodly amount of pp but oh well

4. my personal favorite its why i loved the sleep meta the counter play was nice since you could just determine which mon had the least importance in the match and get that as your sleeping mon and you could always wake it up with heal bell. same with para you could get you mon you want to be slower eat a nuzzle then you most likely have the slowest core enforcer or teleport ect

5. haha kill me now :)

as for bolt beak it was mainly the presence of zac- c that i didnt like, now that its gone i think it can comeback for many of the reasons stated but i think tea guzzler explained it the best "I personally do not think that Kyurem-Black and Palkia will be able to make significant use out of Bolt Beak, which could make the move more manageable. This is mainly down to their checks" and

• "Similar to Fishious Rend, Beak has 1 whole STAB abuser in Zekrom (which is actually worse than Palkia in terms of damage since there is no Lustrous Orb equivalent and Dragon Energy comes off of Palkia's higher Sp. Atk and orb).
• The list of mons able to run Bolt Beak effectively is fairly slim. Zekrom, Xerneas and The Dogs (all 3 forms) are the main suspects. Zekrom will use it as STAB, and Xerneas and Dogs are likely using it to destroy Ho-Oh without needing to worry about Desolate Land."

 

[quojova]

Paralysis has been much talked about lately. Its presence within the Balanced Hackmons metagame has been called into question, and it seems as if some people would like tiering action. In this post, I'll talk about para's impact on the meta, and my thoughts of para, along with what possible tiering action might, and might not look like.

Paralysis in BH

Paralysis has been a tool used primarily for speed control. In a metagame where many pokemon are between 90-100 base speed it is natural for paralysis to play such a prominent role. Currently, paralysis is used most frequently on Ho-oh - to check Eternatus, on regenvest - as a means of crippling, on Prankster - as a last minute ditch to cripple an offensive pokemon, and on Fur Coat Lunala. Its speed control is also seen on offensive pokemon like Regigigas and Palkia, which want to paralyze and be faster than Zamzenta-Crowned.

However, the paralysis effect goes beyond speed control, which is the primary point of this discussion. On every turn, a paralysed pokemon has a 25% chance of not making a move, i.e. getting paralyzed. This 25% para chance is by nature uncompetitive. Thus, is it at times used on offensive pokemon like Regigigas and Xerneas for muscling past checks throughout long term games.

Paralysis over the course of long games, which bh games tend to be, can make its presence very sharply felt. Throughout OMPL, there have been numerous games decided by parahax, where a pokemon is paralyzed at a crucial moment. This obviously isn’t fun, it doesn’t feel competitive, and it fucking sucks to go out on RNG. So, should there be tiering action on paralysis inducing moves, or paralysis in general?

Keeping Paralysis in check

Well, let's talk about how to stop paralysis. To list them off quickly, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce (glare), ground types, electric types, aromatherapy, jungle healing, dark types (prank glare), and the incredibly niche comatose & Flower Veil pokemon.

Poison Heal pokemon are incredibly strong at switching into passive nuzzle & glare pokemon (regenvest and prankster). Ground pokemon such as Zyg-C are very good at switching into nuzzle Ho-oh and Regigigas. Magic Bounce, is nice if glare was scouted on a poison heal or prankster pokemon.The rest are more game plan esq / niche, but still definitely viable.

I believe that these tools are enough to have switch-ins for passive paralyzers and for the more aggressive ones. I also believe that, if a team doesn’t have a switch in, generally knowing who you can allow to be paralyzed, and having a dedicated “para sack mon” is generally enough, as long as a game plan was formed for the passive paralysis pokemon and Ho-oh (which is 100% necessary) and for other paralysis pokemon such as Regigigas. The rest I believe most teams have the opportunity to generally outplay.

However, despite all this, para hax still happens. Along the way, losing to paralysis at some point is inevitable. This has been very evident in OMPL, as it’s happened multiple times. BUT, bringing multiple para pokemon per team in a para heavy team mirror match has been very common in OMPL, which basically means in long drawn out games, losing to parahax is inevitable, because one side will get screwed over at the pivotal turn - if they did not gameplan correctly. Thus, many people in the community would appreciate some tiering action on para.

Tiering action on paralysis

I personally would endorse a suspect test instead of a council vote. This is mainly because from my experience of the metagame, building and playing, I feel as if paralysis’ place in the metagame is justified (I’m also anxious about Eternatus if para is free). Since I am pretty stubborn on this, I believe it might be best for the community to make the decision in case my perspective of the meta is warped in some way or another.

Potential tiering action

1. Ban Nuzzle
2. Ban Glare and Thunder Wave
3. Ban Nuzzle, Glare, and Thunder Wave
4. Paralysis Clause
5. No tier action

Potential effect of tiering action

1. This would eliminate passive paralysis users, such as regenvesters. This would greatly nerf Ho-oh as it can now more easily be countered by magic bounce. Glare’s presence would still keep sweepers and Eternatus in check.

2. This mainly affects prank glare users as a last minute ditch to check sweepers. These pokemon become more passive. Ground pokemon become a much more reliable check to paralysis inducing moves. Nuzzle can still be used on Ho-oh and regenvesters to check Eternatus.

Some brief thoughts as well, I’ve personally felt like this interaction is currently the closest to the precedent that was previously used to ban cramorant (It simply spreads paralysis too easily) because you essentially sack your prankster pokemon for a sweeper.

3. No more of the big paralysis inducing moves. Games become a lot less rng dependent. Eternatus can potentially get out of hand. Regenvest and Prankster pokemon get very nerfed.

4. I mentioned a paralysis clause. But I’m not sure how this is possible without nerfing the game, because of moves like Thunder Bolt. Someone would have to explain what a paralysis clause might look like, because I sure don’t.

5. Paralysis remains within the metagame. Nuzzle and Glare remain as premium forms of speed control, and long term utility. Games where both teams rely on paralysis, without great paralysis control inevitably result in death by parahax for one of the players. There are still occasions where para heavy teams still break through well structured teams from unfortunate rng. However, the counterplay to paralysis is deemed enough and people structure their teams to have better counter play to paralysis. This is where I currently stand.

Something that’s been on my mind.

LET'S TALK ABOUT BOLT BEAK.

Bolt beak was banned after Intrepid Sword and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen. It was deemed that there was an intrinsic brokenness of the move that was not attributed to these two pokemon. A few months after the Bolt Beak ban, Zacian-Crowned was banned. However, looking at the metagame I feel like there’s a chance that Bolt Beak might be healthy. I’m currently looking at the abusers (not type related, i.e. Zekrom and Regieleki) and I feel like there aren’t any too crazy ones. Tough Claws BandedKartana sets can potentially be very very good, but Bolt Strike does similar things. CB Kyurem-Black might be incredible with Bolt Beak. Its mold breaker set with Bolt Strike would remain unchanged besides becoming more consistent. There aren’t really any mixed pokemon that might abuse it too much besides like Palkia to break through Tapu Fini (but then again it can still run Zap Cannon or Bolt Strike). I believe that because there doesn’t seem to be any too oppressive users of Bolt Beak after the Zacian-Crowned ban it can potentially be reintroduced into the metagame. I personally would love to see Zekrom, and Zeraora / Regieleki reintroduced again as awesome threats, which might shake things up nicely. I’d love to get some discussion on this :)

SO

What are your thoughts on Paralysis? Do you think it’s fine, should there be tiering action? If so, what and why? I’d love to hear what you all have to say, so that we finish the last stretch of our metagame with great gusto!

Will add that the only feasible implementation for a "para clause" that I've seen so far is a "single para move clause." Implementing a clause that works similar to the sleep clause in ou but for para is not acceptable from a tiering pov atp (and it has been stated that if proposed it would likely be rejected by om staff). Single para move clause would look like this:

Limit one of nuzzle/glare/twave/stun spore

OR

Limit one of nuzzle/glare/twave/stun spore/zap cannon

This is still a bit on the edge from a tiering perspective, but plausibly acceptable. The other question worth answering is if it does enough to fix the meta, since it's one of the more conservative options.

In general stun spore needs to be added to options 2+3 imo

 

[Ren]

3 >>>>>> 2 > 1 >>>>>> 5 > 4, don't see the necessity for a clause when the solution is fairly cut and dry. The issue isn't moves that have a chance to cause para, it's the accessibility to moves that always do. Would rather no tiering action than a clause.

Bolt Beak is very much broken, stuff like Zeraora Regieleki and Zekrom love having it as STAB and akin to Barraskewda's Primordial Sea set these can certainly run Transistor well. Alternatively, stuff like Tough Claws or even Dazzling would work super well. This is all ignoring the Pokemon that'd use this as coverage, like Pheromosa KyuB Kartana Barraskewda etc. Would not be pleased if this was unbanned. Don't really support a suspect either but if it's what the playerbase wants, I suppose it's necessary.

 

[Daylight]

problem: am bored
solution: do forum post

I'm just going to ram something else in here because I think it's important within the game but not a lot of people actually talk about it. This is referring to planning - how you want to go about winning a game, once you're already in the game (so this isn't about teambuilder prep). This is something I see quite a few ppl failing to do, which seriously hurts your chances of winning (ie. mindlessly clicking buttons hurts your odds). Also, as the saying goes, failing to plan is planning to fail, and all that waffle, let's move on.

PLANNING N SHIT

As discussed above, this isn't a concern on teambuilding - so, let's assume that the team is sound, and my main wincon is some arbitrary set like the below:



the krusty krits (Eternatus) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Energy
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Bomb
- Overheat

And let's say you load an unknown team, such as the one below:
View attachment 425169
There's some things you should instantly be thinking about when you see the matchup:

• What is the apparent hazard control?
• What are the apparent damage threats?
• What are the defensive mons you will have to break to get Eternatus through?
• What looks like the Prankster mon (if there is one)?

Now, It's pretty naive to assume that you'll be able to get all of these assumptions correct simply by the sight of the team. However, you can make some educated guesses that can help decide your early game actions:

• Hazard control looks most likely to be Pixilate Xerneas improofed by Ho-Oh, or Aerilate Ho-Oh likely improofed by Zygarde with some Pheal Xern set.
• Xerneas is always a damage threat, Kyurem is always a damage threat, but on preview you can't really decipher if Eternatus and Ho-Oh are.
• Ho-Oh will be the main roadblock for your Eternatus, and it's currently unclear if ZamaC will be Ice Scales/Primordial Sea/Assault Vest or not.
• Zygarde seems like the most likely Prankster if there is one.

From here, you're going to want to plan the best way to scout - that is, learning what the enemy mons do. Getting this information is a vital avenue to confirming or denying the above suspicions, and thus how you want to go about getting through the defensive mons. Early scouting often involves a lot of pivot spam and careful play, since things can go very wrong if you make a risky play and get punished for it (the most common example I see is people recklessly trying to activate Regigigas' Toxic Orb and getting Nuzzled on the way in), so take it slow. If using offensive mons, you can go into them and launch attacks to see how the enemy responds to them, in order to decipher what the walls that you'll have to get through are. One such example would be (safely) getting Eternatus in and launching a Draco Meteor, since this tests both the switchin and, unlike Sludge Bomb, also tests for Ice Scales if ZamaC is the one coming in.
Whilst scouting, however, you don't want to be too passive or too aggressive - playing too aggressive risks something horrible happening like the ZamaC being Magic Bounce and getting Anchor Shotted whilst switching to Xerneas (meaning you just die), whereas playing too passive means you give the enemy much more room to set up their own initiative (such as laying hazards or poking at your own defences) and begin making progress against you. Worst case with playing passive is that you let Kyurem in for free, which can be disastrous (especially given that, since Kyurems like to run Mold Breaker and/or ways to boost attack, walls are often more the mons themselves rather than the sets, making it slightly easier to do things against unscouted targets).

So, let's say now that after some early scouting and safe play, a few things have been confirmed:

• ZamaC is Ice Scales.
• Kyurem is Mold Breaker, at the time the item is unconfirmed.
• The Hazard management is Bounce Zygarde-C + Pixilate Xerneas.
• Ho-Oh is Desolate Land.
• Eternatus has not been brought in yet.

From here, you have confirmed some of your suspicions, such as the Pixi Xern hazard management, the Specially Defensive ZamaC, and quite importantly the Kyurem's agenda. Whilst you're doing this scouting, you also have time to figure out what you're going to be doing if your Hypothesis is correct - that is, 'if Zama IS walling Etern, how do I go about beating that without getting run over by Kyurem?'

Based on these confirmations, you can draw a few conclusions:

• There isn't a massively safe Kyurem improof, nor a clear Kyurem wall since you don't know it's moves and item.
• The Eternatus set is likely one that wants to remain a secret, and also that Paralysis severely hinders it's ability to do things.
• Hazard control hinges on Xerneas.

And from this point, the door is open to you. Individual steps from here are dependent on the team, and so how you go about playing to your wincon and to the assumptions is more clear since you've done most of the important scouting early on. Hell, probably one of the best things you can draw from this is that getting Eternatus through the walls is a pain in the ass, so you mightn't even want to go for the Eternatus sweep and instead go for a secondary wincon like SD Regigigas (which is good to know now so you're not stuck at turn 70 still trying to force your way through Zama).

Scouting guidance done, now for some meta talk:

PARALYSIS
People speaking about para is honestly a revolving door at this point, with discussions being highlighted by current OMPL circumstances such as Losr vs TTTech being decided by 5/6 Palkia full paras. Honestly, I myself am torn on the matter - on the one hand, it's important for keeping offensive threats in check and punishing 'flowcharting' - the practice of following a cycle of clicking buttons until something important happens. On the other, it's shit for spectating, tilting if you're on the receiving end, often a risk-free punish, runnable on almost anything, and the counterplay is fairly limited with a whole 3 viable Nuzzle sponges (by typing) and solutions being 'just run heal bell you tool' (which I personally think is shit advice when PH is arguably the best legal ability). Nothing can be done about the RNG check though, since a Para mod is IMO the worst way to go about the problem.
Would I support Paralysis being modded? No.
Would I support Zap Cannon, Glare and Nuzzle all being banned? No.
Would I support Nuzzle OR Glare being suspected and/or banned? Possibly. Banning ONE seems like a reasonable limitation.

edit: twave, stun spore, glare and any other para status moves can be compressed into the same thing action wise.

BELLY DRUM
By nature, incredibly volatile and high-risk-high-reward. Drum itself removes a large part of skill from the game as an offensive weapon, and is arguably the biggest matchup fish in the tier. My issue with Drum is that the answers are limited, and if you spec into multiple answers in order to combat either drumspam or a well-crafted drum team then you aren't speccing enough into countering other playstyles (aided by the fact that unaware is kind of shit and common drummers often have ways around common FC walls/imp). The argument of "It's risky to set up on the side of the drummer" also doesn't really transpire enough for pretty much the sole argument in favour of keeping drum free (plus, if you're having to drum in risky scenarios, you're either running drumspam, on the back foot or throwing).
Would I support Belly Drum being suspected and/or banned? Most Likely.

GLACIAL LANCE
kyub my beloved
Seriously though, spare the hyperactive gameplay bias, I don't think Glance is tremendously banworthy. It's limited coverage that only really serves to hit the dragons and Groudon hard, and the amount of mons that can get consistent use out of it are somewhat limited. The main one is Regigigas, who can use it to force past Zygarde walling attempts and to dent Fur Coat Groudon / Prankster Giratina looking to slow it down. Other uses of it are mostly limited to DrumBurden mons looking to not get bricked by Zygarde, and the poor amount of viable Ice types combined with the fact that it isn't Tough Claws boosted mean that it's only hitting the things it hits SE for significant damage outside of acting as Kyurem-Black and Calyrex-Ice's main STABS.
Would I support Glacial Lance being suspected and/or banned? No.

Ending note: someone better than me, can you please make a post abt all this meta shit, i'm sick of joining omcord VC and all i hear is complaining. people want a resolution.
Ending note 2: it took all my strength to not make 'throwing' (under belly drum) link to chew's week 5 bh game

If we’re speaking of changes to the meta as well as speculation about generation 9, I think this post and those that follow are worth reading:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bdsp-pure-hackmons.3693868/page-2#post-9225267

The tl;dr is that Hackmons—and, by extension, Balanced Hackmons—is currently poorly and vaguely defined. In a time and on a console where the tools for and knowledge about hacking the game have only gotten better and better, “anything that can be hacked in-game” and “played with in local battles” is simply too broad to make for a playable metagame. Editing all your mons’ HP 65,536, manipulation of the battle rng, editing the metronome table to always call a move of your choice, making mons enter the battle pre-statused, etc. are all things that can be “hacked in game” and “played with in local battles.”

The solution proposed in the link above resolves the issue by tightening and clarifying the currently vague definition Hackmons uses. For example, the definition suggested in the linked post would clarify that hacks that don’t modify the program of the game itself and persist upon rebooting the game and healing your party are those that Hackmons refers to. (Rebooting and healing were chosen bc those actions flush RAM edits and party stat edits, respectively.) Alternatively, the definition could even be as straightforward as: "You use a save editor to edit the individual Pokemon, put them on your team, load the game, and battle locally." This solution dodges the issue of RAM editing entirely.

I mention this here because the only significant change adopting a clear and actually precise definition for Hackmons such as those suggested above has to do with “battle-only” forms. In generation 8, in-battle forms like Cramorant-Gorging and Zamazenta-Crowned are, thanks to the game’s sanity check, reverted to their base forms upon rebooting or loading the save file. So my question is: how do BH players feel about a metagame without Pokemon like itemless Zamazenta-Crowned and Zygarde-Complete?

Regardless, the way Hackmons (both Pure and Balanced) is currently defined needs to change.

 

[in the hills]

If we’re speaking of changes to the meta as well as speculation about generation 9, I think this post and those that follow are worth reading:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bdsp-pure-hackmons.3693868/page-2#post-9225267

The tl;dr is that Hackmons—and, by extension, Balanced Hackmons—is currently poorly and vaguely defined. In a time and on a console where the tools for and knowledge about hacking the game have only gotten better and better, “anything that can be hacked in-game” and “played with in local battles” is simply too broad to make for a playable metagame. Editing all your mons’ HP 65,536, manipulation of the battle rng, editing the metronome table to always call a move of your choice, making mons enter the battle pre-statused, etc. are all things that can be “hacked in game” and “played with in local battles.”

The solution proposed in the link above resolves the issue by tightening and clarifying the currently vague definition Hackmons uses. For example, the definition suggested in the linked post would clarify that hacks that don’t modify the program of the game itself and persist upon rebooting the game and healing your party are those that Hackmons refers to. (Rebooting and healing were chosen bc those actions flush RAM edits and party stat edits, respectively.) Alternatively, the definition could even be as straightforward as: "You use a save editor to edit the individual Pokemon, put them on your team, load the game, and battle locally." This solution dodges the issue of RAM editing entirely.

I mention this here because the only significant change adopting a clear and actually precise definition for Hackmons such as those suggested above has to do with “battle-only” forms. In generation 8, in-battle forms like Cramorant-Gorging and Zamazenta-Crowned are, thanks to the game’s sanity check, reverted to their base forms upon rebooting or loading the save file. So my question is: how do BH players feel about a metagame without Pokemon like itemless Zamazenta-Crowned and Zygarde-Complete?

Regardless, the way Hackmons (both Pure and Balanced) is currently defined needs to change.

Thanks for your post, OM leadership is working on a response to the topic in the PH thread at the moment but we want to make it clear that we aren't going to make any change that negatively restricts Balanced Hackmons in order to make Pure Hackmons more playable. BH is currently able to tier around the items mentioned and should not have to face any repercussions over a fix to these issues in PH. We hope to have a response out about the definition of Hackmons soon, look forward to it!

 

[Daylight]

Thanks for your post, OM leadership is working on a response to the topic in the PH thread at the moment but we want to make it clear that we aren't going to make any change that negatively restricts Balanced Hackmons in order to make Pure Hackmons more playable. BH is currently able to tier around the items mentioned and should not have to face any repercussions over a fix to these issues in PH. We hope to have a response out about the definition of Hackmons soon, look forward to it!

I think you misunderstand my point—the point is not to “negatively restrict” BH so that PH can be playable. Regardless of whether or not SwSh PH is revivable, the way both PH and BH are defined is vague and has been applied inconsistently.

 

[Greybaum]

1. Ban Nuzzle
2. Ban Glare and Thunder Wave
3. Ban Nuzzle, Glare, and Thunder Wave
4. Paralysis Clause
5. No tier action

i've not been playing bh long nor super regularly but from my perspective para has felt not only healthy but necessary for team building to not be a huge chore.

ill keep it brief to not be boring; this tier has a LOT of offensive threats, and defensive investment carries you way further than offensive investment, hence why pokemon like regigigas are rarely being taken out via direct damage but instead threatened with entrainment/core enforcer mons or fur coat trappers. following this train of thought, nuzzle uniquely is the only good, consistent way to permanently neutralise a threat and by extension is the only clean way for a lot of mons to prevent scary breakers like xerneas or eternatus from staying in and spamming attacks ad infinitum. you can build without para, as stresh and whoever it was in ompl he played that week (ren?) have shown, but honestly why would you want to? the utility/compression nuzzle gives you is unmatched and opens up building a lot in my eyes which is why i can't personally support any tiering action taking place on it.

also yes a lot of games 'come down to para' but i feel that this is overstated in light of how many turns are often risked compared to other tiers where pokemon dont have 252/252/252 defenses. paras are still sometimes game breaking hax turns but they're also to some extent a quick way to break a turn cycle, and often an inevitability, and i see the cases where it does fuck over a player unnecessarily as a necessary evil though i understand why others might disagree, especially if they're spectators not players, and especially especially if it's their ompl teammate getting fucked over.

if you really want to nerf para, just ban nuzzle. glare is blocked by mbounce, and more importantly is much less consistent in light of taunt; yeah at the moment all the glare users are prankster but this wont be the case if you ban nuzzle. 2 through 4 make no sense to me, though you could certainly revisit 3 if it was found that a nuzzle ban alone was not enough.

also im not sure if this was covered but if you want to do tiering action, just do a council vote. suspect reqs are an unbelievably poor way to judge tiering knowledge/skill and i fear that a public suspect test will allow too many players who have no experience with the tier to just immediately vote ban because para is annoying. this is not meant to be a dig at anyone who thinks para is broken, i understand there are very legitimate opinions to want it gone, i just dont think those are the views that would be held by people who have previously voted on OM suspects, particularly the ones with a lower voter turnout.

also a quick note on cramorant, that thing was dumb because it made every turn a 50/50 where if you ever attacked into the cram your offensive threat (lets just say etern from here) is instantly paralysed. nuzzle and co. are not the same at all because you can literally just switch eternatus out and find breaking opportunities later without risking the whole game off a turn.

I think you misunderstand my point—the point is not to “negatively restrict” BH so that PH can be playable. Regardless of whether or not SwSh PH is revivable, the way both PH and BH are defined is vague and has been applied inconsistently.

from the OP

What is Balanced Hackmons?
From a technical standpoint, Balanced Hackmons (BH) is an Other Meta that allows you to use nearly anything possible that you can battle with in a local battle between players, in the most current cartridge.
Conceptually, BH is defined as a sandbox tier where one can use Pokemon to their fullest potential with normal restrictions being removed.

What makes it Balanced?
The removal of abilities, moves or Pokemon that focus the meta only around their use.

balanced hackmons isnt having rules applied inconsistently. maxed stats are banned as a mechanic because it ruins the game, in a similar fashion to how dynamax got banned in every 6v6 singles tier this gen (bar AG obviously). banning broken edits like this is what makes the tier balanced hackmons and not unbalanced hackmons. zygarde-c and zama-c are extremely healthy and very influential meta staples and there's no reason to try and rework the definition of BH when there's no benefit to doing that, hence ITH's post. sorry about PH though.

 

[Daylight]

from the OP

What is Balanced Hackmons?
From a technical standpoint, Balanced Hackmons (BH) is an Other Meta that allows you to use nearly anything possible that you can battle with in a local battle between players, in the most current cartridge.
Conceptually, BH is defined as a sandbox tier where one can use Pokemon to their fullest potential with normal restrictions being removed.

What makes it Balanced?
The removal of abilities, moves or Pokemon that focus the meta only around their use.

balanced hackmons isnt having rules applied inconsistently. maxed stats are banned as a mechanic because it ruins the game, in a similar fashion to how dynamax got banned in every 6v6 singles tier this gen (bar AG obviously). banning broken edits like this is what makes the tier balanced hackmons and not unbalanced hackmons. zygarde-c and zama-c are extremely healthy and very influential meta staples and there's no reason to try and rework the definition of BH when there's no benefit to doing that, hence ITH's post. sorry about PH though.

My bad, I must’ve missed the spot in the clauses and banlist where HP Editing, the dynamax exploit, and the myriad of other uncompetitive hacks are banned. And while yes, you can go and ban all of these hacks one by one, the fact that would be necessary, in my opinion, only further reveals the deficiency in the way PH and BH both are defined.

EDIT: I realized I didn’t actually really explain why the aforementioned broken edits and battle-only forms go hand-in-hand so…

Context: correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the original spirit of Hackmons is essentially using a save editor (like PKHeX) to edit your mons, load the save, put them on your team, and then enter a local battle. Balanced Hackmons is, I believe, basically the same but with additional restrictions on the edits you can make.

The problem with Zama-C and Cram-G and friends is that you can’t get them by editing your save file in the way described above. From what I know, this is new behavior in generation 8, but a sanity check reverts them to their base forms upon loading the game (same for stuff like Eternamax). To get them to be usable in local battles, you need to edit the working data of the game in some way or edit the overworld spawns or get them from an illegal raid from someone who’s been romhacking (and in all these cases rebooting or loading the game still reverts those forms). So the issue with allowing these in-battle forms in gen 8 is that you open the door to all the other crazy shit you can do with RAM editing, ROM editing, cheat codes, etc.

 

[stephen78548]

Thanks for your post, OM leadership is working on a response to the topic in the PH thread at the moment but we want to make it clear that we aren't going to make any change that negatively restricts Balanced Hackmons in order to make Pure Hackmons more playable. BH is currently able to tier around the items mentioned and should not have to face any repercussions over a fix to these issues in PH. We hope to have a response out about the definition of Hackmons soon, look forward to it!

i have an idea lets make an anything version of hackmons and make "pure" hackmons the uber of the tier and BH the ou of the tier because i love gen 6 PH and gen 7 was ight but gen 8 was an absolute hell-scape it really felt like ubers in gen 6? i forget when mega ray was introduced lol but yeah lets make an anything goes tier of BH so that way PH can be playable again :)

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I've already stated this previously and faced some pushback by influential players, but I don't play regularly and often take big breaks, and every time I come back, I'm a little surprised at whatever is banned or about to be banned.

With sleep now gone, paralyze is by far the dominating status remaining in the tier. Basicaly no one carries will o wisp and it's somewhat underwhelming and the amount of mons immune to toxic in this tier is quite a large deterrant on using a moveslot on toxic (and obviously frostbite doesn't really count). If we remove paralysis or all the ways to reliably induce it, we basicaly reduce the non-self-induced status game in the tier to scald, sludge bomb and occasional no guard sets... in a tier where we're supposed to have as close to total building freedom, so long as it's not unplayable. That's practicaly removing what I'd argue is one of the 3 main offensive mechanics of the game (along with super effective coverage and boosting) I know that's not really a valid argument for keeping para as an important part of the tier, but it should make us reflect on what were trying to achieve here.

If we could change the effect of para for cutting the speed by 4 instead of 2 and removing the full paralysis effect, I'd be as thrilled as anyone who wants to ban paralysis, but that's not how that works. The only tool we have to nerf RNG is the very binary and limited act of banning stuff. What I appreciate so much of this tier is the surprising variety of viable sets, more than any other tier I've played, even though typing and stats are the only reason to choose a mon over another. Considering the last paragraph, I would very much insist that banning reliable paralysis moves would reduce the place for creativity and not increase it. Would we reduce RNG induced wins? Probably, but we have no reliable way to set an accurate benchmark or measure the amount of RNG induced losses and honnestly if you haven't already learned that the best player in the world in this game will lose far more often than the best player in the world for a game like chess, you should just play another game. Paralysis has been in every tier since gen 1 and I've never heard of it being banned (granted I haven't followed anything in any other tier since like 2017). How are we discussing banning this in balanced hackmons of all tiers?

For the record, I think guts + flame orb and arguably flare boost are criticaly underated ways to avoid parahax. Misty surge is also a somewhat interesting strategy. In the last 50ish games I played since I started playing again, parahax was very rarely a deciding factor, simply because I build in consequence, usualy with 2 or 3 out of the following 6 options: Pheal, ground, electric, bounce, guts, jungle healing (btw walls with jungle healing + leech seed + leftovers is quite a cool way to cover for the lackluster 25% of JH). And as Sevag said, you can also choose a mon as your para absorber, so I'd add regenerator as a half counter to para (since recover users could potentialy be killed becuase of parahax). This has not struck me as too much of a limiting factor in teambuilding at all. It should also be noted that correctly planning for paralysis means your opponent is likely carrying a move for nothing, giving you a potential breakthrough on a wall that likely only carries one other non-passive move. What I mean is packing nuzzle or glare is not cost free.

 

[dhelmise]

I think you misunderstand my point—the point is not to “negatively restrict” BH so that PH can be playable. Regardless of whether or not SwSh PH is revivable, the way both PH and BH are defined is vague and has been applied inconsistently.

Yes, the point of ITH's post was to clarify that we have a definition in the works to fix any inconsistencies for previous and current gens.

 

[Onyx Onix 7]

Since OMPL season has finally come to a close for my team, I thought I'd heed the requests for sample teams and donate one of my creations:

The Team: The Cosmic Peninsula: https://pokepast.es/a4868a96e2841340.​

Prelude:

Misty Surge has long been regarded as the least effective terrain in Balanced Hackmons. However much of that sentiment, I've found in has not as much as a result of Misty Surge being a poor strategy but a poor understanding of how to use it. As it stands currently, Misty Surge doesn't belong on defensive teams as it has historically been used. It truly belongs on balanced / bulky offense teams as a blanket progress retardant that can be capitalized on to create lopsided and advantageous positions.

Synopsis:

Unlike most of my other submissions in the past, the submitted team isn't as much of a Stall build as much as it is a bulky balance build. This team is built around abusing Misty Surge to both make itself a lot harder to break through with Paralysis and Dragon types, and to slow down prominent strategies like Poison Heal Regigigas. The effects on the field that Misty Surge offers will often start an opponent on the back foot right from the beginning making it trivial for the team to capitalize on that weakness and quickly start causing havoc.

Tips on how to use:

Typically the optimal lead is Misty Surge Xerneas to ensure that Misty Surge gets up. Once Misty Surge is up then typically the optimal line of play is to aggressively abuse the team's myriad of pivoting options to get Blacephelon and Yveltal in position to begin punching holes in the opponent's team's. Capitalizing on the early turns is crucial as that's when the opponent's team will often be at its weakest. Once those first few turns of Misty Surge expire, the opponent will likely have their Poison Healers online and their Paralysis spreaders up and running. From here on out it's optimal to play more patiently and find safe opportunities to fire off Blacepeholons STAB moves, get Yveltal set -up, and set -up Poison Heal Pokemon for the Purify attack on Prankster Toxapex. Most teams are not well equipped to deal with the combination of Blacepelon and Yveltal. Take advantage of that fact throughout the game to claim Koes.

Specifics / Improofing :

* FC Guzzlord serves jointly as the team's answer to Imposter as Blacephelon / Yveltal
* If an opponent tries to switch Imposter on Toxapex go to Yveltal and set up Dragon Dance
* Guzzlord uses a Sassy nature to better Imposter-Proof Blacephelon and better take Core-Enforcer chip
* Try and catch Poison Heal Pokemon with Guzzlord's Knock-Off to get them set up for a Purify attack
* Be wary of random Ghost and Dark moves when Necorzma is on the battlefield

Strengths:

* Teams with no Blacephelon counterplay
* Teams with physical walls that are hit super effectively by Yveltal
* Poison Heal Pokemon
* Eternatus
* Xerneas
* Paralysis centric teams

Weaknesses:

* Belly Drum Yveltal
* Type : Null
* Guzzlord
* Palkia
* Regen-Vest Zygarde- C
* Blacepelon Resistant structures

Effectiveness:

I easily reached top 5 on the ladder: ( Ignore the Gxe, I used that alt to test unrelaible gimmicks / meme strats prior to laddering with the Misty Surge team,):

and Defeated the top 2 players currently on the ladder and a few other good players:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1582702336-gm25drtsx2mz5nwk3py1dgo4ptd39mwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1581361413-qvyaots6m4yzrulhbj2so716v98guo6pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1575772188-edr0f2gzhr25mlt86sgj6ag62ty6bkopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1574948407-u0orsmvarwelmcc0k8nbrwqcjn70wrypw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1572828757-gmfim6b6y22kolyf0gbbqbps0uouctopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1571424343-96ydozsr6hzk5kesfu70lpk2jwpmt1xpw

 

[spectrability_]

hey BH!

im pretty new to this metagame, but I think it's really fun and I wanted to share a team with y'all.

https://pokepast.es/8bedaa5c4ab53e67

any feedback? my matchup is pretty shit against ho-oh and para teams

 

[Tea Guzzler]

hey BH!

im pretty new to this metagame, but I think it's really fun and I wanted to share a team with y'all.

https://pokepast.es/8bedaa5c4ab53e67

any feedback? my matchup is pretty shit against ho-oh and para teams

Hi, welcome to BH. Few things about the team:

• The imposter-proofing (how you counter Imposter copying your mons) is a bit off. Registeel not having any recovery means there's not a lot punishing Imposter from repeatedly coming in on Calyrex and chipping down Registeel, who you'd probably be switching to. Prankster-boosted moves only gain +1 priority whereas Extreme Speed is +2, so you'll usually be eating 2 Extreme Speeds when going to Registeel, meaning you take at minimum 67% if Calyrex has a Swords Dance up when Imp copies it. In addition, theoretically this chansey walls Xerneas and Eternatus but you don't have the moves for it (something like Anchor Shot/Topsy-Turvy/Recover/Filler would do this).
• Shift Gear Xerneas isn't tremendous, since Extreme Speed makes the speed-boosting aspect irrelevant and you lack recovery. Quiver Dance tends to be the more consistent setup variant, with coverage like Blue Flare. Furthermore, improofing Shift Gear can be sketchy if you aren't at full health with Chansey.
• Prankster Defog technically targets the enemy - Dark Types are immune to Prankster-boosted moves. This poses a problem since, if the enemy has a Dark type, they can completely deny you clearing hazards.
• Mono-Ice attacking types on Calyrex isn't ideal since the majority of teams will carry a Steel type, so your attacking prowess is fairly limited. Changing this, however, also means you'd need to improof it, so if you were after a Setup -> Priority attacker then Triage Yveltal with Nasty Plot/Oblivion Wing/2 filler moves may be preferrable, as this can already be improofed by Chansey (provided it has Topsy-Turvy and you don't run Secret Sword).
• There's no real Regigigas improof. Even with +Defence Registeel you're almost assured to be 2HKO'd by Extreme Speed, and nothing else can eat boosted ESpeeds. Cheek Pouch in general is also not massively viable. Other abilities for Belly Drum, such as Unburden, may be more viable (bear in mind that you'll have to Improof whatever you use, but Unburden means you can self-kill imposter provided you eat your Sitrus Berry). I explain it in more detail here, but in general Belly Drum + Extreme Speed has a really poor Imposter matchup despite the potential to 6-0 at preview.

Hope this advice helps. The Discord Server is a good place to ask around for teambuilding advice as well.

 

[Onyx Onix 7]

hey BH!

im pretty new to this metagame, but I think it's really fun and I wanted to share a team with y'all.

https://pokepast.es/8bedaa5c4ab53e67

any feedback? my matchup is pretty shit against ho-oh and para teams

Thanks for sharing your ideas on the BH thread.

From here I'll list the things I've observed about your build and how it can be improved:

1. The team doesn't have any apparent counterplay to Imposter Chansey / Blissey

2. As you stated Paralysis and strong Fire Attacks look problematic

3. This team gets 6-0ed by most Anchor Shot + Fighting move Zamazenta

4. Calyrex Ice doesn't have a way to hit common Steel Types

5. Because Registeel has no recovery it's prone to get worn down and overwhelmed by repeated attacks

Edit: Looks like Tea Guzzler beat me to it.

So here are some potential ideas to improve the team:

1. Replace the Cheek pouch set with a Belly Burden Regigigas such as this one:

Regigigas @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Multi-Attack
- Wicked Blow
- Belly Drum

This solves much of the Imposter Proofing issue as at +6 you can cleanly KO Imposter Chansey with Close Combat and since you have Unburden triggered by Belly Drum and they don't you will always outspeed them.

2. Replace Blue Flare or Earth Power with a Dragon STAB. Typically 1 coverage move is enough. By replacing Blue Flare with Draco Meteor or Core Enforcer you can greatly improve the match-up against bulky Dragons like Giratina.

3. Turn Xerneas from a QD to a Metronome set. With Metronome you can achieve similar power levels to QD by spamming consecutive attacks and you can slot Rapid Spin for more reliable Hazard control.

Here's an example set:

Xerneas @ Metronome
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Boomburst
- Diamond Storm
- Strength Sap

4. Replace Registeel with Celesteela. Your team I noticed struggles with fighting move + Anchor Shot which is fairly common on Zamazenta. Celesteela isn't weak to fighting so that helps quite a bit defensively.

Example set:

Celesteela @ Occa Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glare
- U-Turn
- Haze
- Shore Up

5. As for my last suggested change, I'd exchange Calyrex for another pokemon. I'd recommend in this instance a Ground or Electric-type to help with the paralysis match-up.

Here's the paste of the team with all my suggestions:https://pokepast.es/ceb2809300bc80b1 . As always you may choose to use them or not.

 

[spectrability_]

thank you!

can I fit webs anywhere?

 

[Onyx Onix 7]

thank you!

can I fit webs anywhere?

If you are really desperate for webs you could probably put them on Xerneas instead of a coverage move. On a side note though if you do use webs then Nasty Plot on Eternatus is probably better than Quiver Dance as you outspeed everything anyway with webs up.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

I will attempt to keep my meta input to a minimum because I have very little Gen 8 BH experience, so this is more about policy / the logic of the potential bans than anything.

First, remember Stun Spore exists, and after a brief discussion with Sevag on Discord it seems that the move should likely be included in the discussion.

Second,
I hate, hate, hate the idea of any sort of paralysis clause. We have had both Sleep Clause Mod and Sleep Moves Clause, and I can only imagine we would be emulating one of those.

Paralysis Moves Clause is essentially taking the bans on individual moves already being discussed and pushing it further than it needs to be. I have not seen any complaints about moves such as Discharge, Body Slam, or Zap Cannon (and many more), and until there are it seems odd to address them. They may afflict the same status condition but they are very different in how they function, thanks to either being unreliable or requiring an ability / item to function well. It would be incredibly disruptive to access to offensive Electric moves in a way that Sleep Moves Clause has never been thanks to the much larger distribution of Paralysis as a secondary effect.

Paralysis Clause Mod would be based on a precedent that Smogon as a whole has been trying to move away from for generations. This is the worst possible choice by far from a policy standpoint.
I am assuming that this would work by preventing you from causing a second paralysis to their team after you have caused one.
Balanced Hackmons has always worked with the game mechanics presented by the cartridges, and anything that deviates from that in any way beyond what is necessary to preserve our server's integrity is not ok. There are other solutions presented that do not violate our tiering guidelines and it would be vastly preferable for those to be chosen.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Feel like i've rambled lots about what is good, and why it's good, but not how to build around it. Might as well change that (tl;dr Teambuilding Aids).
Note: Teambuilding is never constant, nor is it a simple checklist. The way you build will depend on personal preference, the things you're building around, the playstyle you intent to play and the threats you intent to hard/soft counter.

Tea's Teambuilding Guide (not definitive because I am not only average at teambuilding but building structures are never the same).

To begin with, there's a big elephant in the room that needs to be addressed - the way you and I build isn't likely to match. All I can show you is how my process works, in the hopes that you will get the general idea of what goes on during the process and so to build based on this. This also isn't going to be a sort of checklist-type situation - I like examples and think they're one of the best ways to get across information, so I'll be using the iterations of me and stresh's OMPL team I brought.

The starting point: Choose what to build around.
This is probably the most important aspect of a good team - you establish what you want to build around early. This is probably going to be the start point regardless of how you build your team. This is good for a few reasons - you have the maximum number of slots to support this mon, you have direction as to what your gameplan/team style is likely to be, and you can identify ways to compress roles early on, helping to maximise threat coverage. In my OMPL team, I decided to build around a weird Palkia set:


Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Dragon Energy
- Entrainment
- Strength Sap

The idea here is that, along with standard Palkia things, Entrainment is useful as you can beat Fur Coat steels such as Solgaleo that would normally hard wall you, as well as removing Pixilate from non-espeed Xerneas. Now that I have the main threat established, I can gauge what's needed to support it:

• Spikes are always good to have, and can help break checks
• A secondary wincon in case Palkia is never getting through - mainly due to Prankster Fini (which is really bad but still a possibility)
• Support for FC Zama-C
• An improof that's ideally not Fini (Entrain also removes the option of PH Fini)

Part 2: Choosing your Support
From here, I can cover the first 3 with a Utility Gigas - Spikes, Nuzzle, Facade, Teleport. This aims to lay hazards whilst constantly forcing progress upon the enemy. To cover the improofing, I opted for an odd choice in Ice Scales Suicune - Nuzzle, Scald, Worry Seed, Recover. This was mainly chosen because I hadn't seen Suicune used ever and it has surprising mixed bulk combined with a great type. Now from here, there's more things to take care of that, due to us only having 3 slots left, are relatively clear in what can go there:

• A Gigas improof that helps limit Imposter spamming spikes.
• Hazard Removal.
• Threat control.

Part 3: Patchwork
To remedy the first one, I add Magic Bounce Zygarde-C to the team, which hard counters Imp Gigas (regardless of T-Orb or not). This carries TWaves, Recover, Volt Switch and Core Enforcer to help cover against enemy Regigigas as well as Imposter. Hazard control led me to Boots Aerilate Yveltal - Boomburst/Spin/VS/Sap, to act as a bulky hazard remover. Lastly, I wanted another mon that could help against Regigigas in case it was carrying Glacial Lance, and was also lacking setup control - so, I decided on Prankster Melmetal to cover both of these bases. I then have the complete team:



Part 4: Threat Coverage
This can realistically be at any point during the teambuilding process, but I tend to find it the easiest to identify which threats you're weak to after you already have the squad of 6. This is because not only do you have every mon, you also have every set they're running and can also play test games with the team in order to find out what you're practically weak to, as theoretical weaknesses/strengths do not always translate into gameplay. This team had some flaws:

• Barraskewda is a really sketchy matchup, despite 3 physical beasts (one of which is a resist) as all of them are 2HKO'd.
• Certain Gigas sets, like SD/Facade/V-Create/GLance, are problems.
• Setup control is a bit dodgy as Melmetal is specially frail + is running Haze over Topsy. In addition, no other SThief or Topsy.
• Breaking Zama can be a pain if it successfully dodges Para.
• Specs Eternatus is almost unwinnable.
• Spin Yveltal can be dangerous into Knock + Rocks.

Now, since I know what the team needs, I can go about fixing it. This can be thought as a new "iteration" of the team - an update or upgrade, if you will. Iterations aim to fix the shortcomings of the original in order to better the overall team, whilst still sticking to the overall team structure.

Part 5: Iterating for problem solving
The first thing I did was swap out Yveltal for Xerneas - an upgrade to the spinner. The team also lacked a Fairy type before this, so it led to a more reliable hazard clearer. Outside of the mon and ability, the set is the exact same. Regigigas and Zygarde-C stayed basically unchanged as the bulky progress makers, with the only difference being U-Turn on Regigigas over Teleport. Specs Spectrier joined the team as a breaker that needed less support (and was less likely to get bogged down against tough matchups), and Ho-Oh was thrown in to help remedy the Eternatus, Zama-C and Barraskewda weaknesses, as well as offering a tad setup control. This leads to the below team:


(edit: i wasn't confident on the palkia set and so i swapped it out for something i had more experience with, which falls down to what you as a builder are fine with using. i also had the realisation that the team structure for the palkia was a bit sketchy and wouldn't accomplish much against the largely balance-oriented tour teams. breakers are dodgy like this, made worse by the fact that there basically aren't any good palkia improofs)

Part 6: Reviewing the Iteration
This comes after you've had your draft of the second team, and is basically asking yourself 3 questions about the team:

• Compared to the previous iteration, which issues were fixed?
• Have any new issues emerged, such as the removal of threat coverage or a newfound playstyle issue?
• How can these issues be remedied in the next iteration?

Using the second draft above, I can answer the above questions:

• Hazard removal has become more reliable, Zama-C is much less of an issue, the Eternatus and Barra matchups are better, setup control has improved.
• Spectrier can be dodgy to use, since there's not a lot that directly punishes hard-switching into a Ghost resist. Spectral on Ho-Oh is realistically never getting used. There's also not a tremendous amount being done to Yveltal.
• Changing Spectrier for something more sustainable, and that better matches up into Yveltal, is likely the easiest fix.

Now that you've answered these questions, you can basically repeat steps 5 and 6 using the guidance you've given yourself until you're happy with the team structure, which ultimately falls down to the builder. As an example, I'll keep going with this team:

• 4 Attack Pixilate Xern was put on the team to help increase offensive pressure. Ho-Oh's already there as an improof, so this doesn't need to be accommodated for by the rest of the team.
• Ho-Oh's set changed multiple times - I was originally intending on Shift Gear/V-create/GLance/Synthesis (and changing Melmetal to improof this), but we ended up running V-create/Spikes/Nuzzle/Recover. This meant it was a more balanced set that could better wall Xerneas in the long term.
• Regigigas' utility changed, going from Nuzzle/Spikes/Pivot to Knock/Rocks/Pivot. Flip Turn was used simply for increased chip. The change to Rocks was because Spikes Ho-Oh was decided on first, and Knock was used because there wasn't any on the team yet. (Normally, you'd want both spikes and rocks if going for hazard stack to both annoy flying types and to help stop reaching the limit of 3 spikes.)
• Yveltal was put back on the team, as Xern was no longer the spinner. Normally this would be the Boots set discussed above, but because we were tournament building and our opponent was MAMP (who we scouted and saw little Stealth Rock usage), we instead opted for Sharp Beak.

This lead the the below team:



This team was pretty much fine as far as we were considering, so this could be seen as the completed team - there weren't any glaring issues with it that would need massive adjustments for, and nothing inherently missing that was worth rebuilding to implement. The threat coverage is fair, hazard control is fair, offensive power is good and hazards are good.

(below is basically irrelevant to the process)

However, on the Friday morning (this was OMPL, and the game had to be played by Sunday night), I was messaged to say that anaconja was substituting for MAMP - to keep it brief, neither me nor stresh knew anything about anaconja, except that he borrowed one of astralydia's teams the week prior. So, the suggestion was made to swap out Ho-Oh for Eviolite Imposter - to help improve threat coverage since we had less idea what to expect. Other than that, nothing was really different other than changing Xern and Yvel's natures - this is less an iteration of the team than an adjusted version, since no inherent problems are being fixed. This is shown below, and was the team I ended up bringing and winning with:



I hope this was useful in laying out the steps to help with teambuilding. I understand that, obviously, the way you build isn't aiming to replicate the team, but hopefully the process is what you take away from this and find useful. If anyone else can offer their teambuilding advice (looking at you council), then that'd be ideal too so you can gauge how differently people do things and, who knows, perhaps you'll prefer/get better results from their approach.

 

[a loser]

Hello BH thread, it has been a minute. I'm happy to see discussion picking back up again here and I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on paralysis recently. I'd been thinking about posting myself and had briefly discussed paralysis with sevag before he kicked things off with his post so I figured I'd chime in as well.

I'll start things off with a recap of paralysis in Gen 8 BH.

Paralysis in Gen 8 BH

Pre-DLC

• Zekrom, Zeraora, and Poison Heal were everywhere. Thanks to Bolt Beak and Intrepid Sword being around, Electric-types were on top of the world. I tried to make para spam and Imposter Pikachu work like I had in Gen 7, but it really just wasn't feasible as almost everything you wanted to be paralyzed was either immune or already had status inflicted.
• More on Poison Heal, this ability was also being used an insane amount. Core Enforcer didn't exist at this time so not just Fairy-types were using this ability and walls didn't always have room to run Worry Seed or Entrainment. I remember MAMP ran teams with like 3+ Poison Heal mons in OMPL.
• Shedinja was around and paralyzing it was one of the worst things you could do. Burn and poison were much more valuable status conditions at the time because of Shedinja and because of ridiculously strong physical attackers like Zacian-C and other Intrepid Sword users.
• Glare was still a nice option to cripple the niche Normalize Dragapult, but Will-O-Wisp and Toxic were more effective against it as well as the meta in general.
• It is worth noting that cityscapes was still boycotting Gen 8 BH at this time (for the most part) so trends like Prankster Glare hadn't really picked up.

Isle of Armor

• Zekrom was S rank in this meta and you still couldn't paralyze it. Zeraora wasn't as good as Pre-DLC but was still a decent option with Intrepid Sword.
• Viable Ground-types were scarce, but Seismitoad, Excadrill, Hippowdon, and Steelix all saw a good amount of usage on offense and defense to check Bolt Beak and the like from scary physical attackers that were still benefitting from Intrepid Sword.
• Poison Heal was still a dominant ability thanks to the lack of Core Enforcer. If you weren't running an Electric-type, Intrepid Sword user, or an Electric-type Intrepid Sword user, you were probably running Poison Heal.

Crown Tundra

• Zekrom takes a slight dive in viability thanks to the arrival of mons such as Xerneas, Groudon, Calyrex-S, Dialga, Palkia, and Zygarde-C.
• Regieleki is introduced as the fastest mon to exist, with a base Speed stat of 200, and is found to be a decent user of Bolt Beak and strong moves.
• Calyrex-S and DGZ are running rampant. Paralysis begins to pick up with a rise in RegenVest mons using utility moves like Nuzzle and Electric-type mons (mainly Zekrom) being less prominent because Shadow Rider and snowman just kill them.
• Cramorant-Gorging is discovered and introduced to the metagame as a means of paralyzing and chipping anything that attacks it. After about four months of using it, the general consensus was that spreading paralysis so easily for little cost compared to the utility Cram could offer was unhealthy, uncompetitive, and not fun.
• DGZ and Intrepid Sword were banned. Burning DGZ wasn't possible, but all other physical attackers at this point were avoiding burns rather than paralysis, for the most part.
• Bolt Beak was suspect tested and banned, effectively ending the career of any Electric-type in BH. Zekrom, Regieleki, and even a rising Tapu Koko basically fell off the face of the earth.
• The Sleep Moves Clause was implemented, banning all sleep inducing moves from BH.
• With sleep banned, physical attackers and Electric-types nerfed further than they had been all generation, and Poison Heal, Steel-types, and Eternatus all being extremely high usage, paralysis becomes the premier status condition.
• Paralysis was shown as one of the leading concerns in the metagame based on a community poll and the BH Council voted on Nuzzle and chose not to ban it.

At one point, I said the below statement and it wasn't inaccurate. But following the timeline laid out in Crown Tundra above makes this statement look very silly because now Regigigas and Xerneas are just itching to click Nuzzle at any given point.

To start, Nuzzle is not an uncompetitive or unhealthy move. I briefly touched on Nuzzle in my last post, but the move really isn't that easy to use in practice. Offensive and defensive mons can use it for team support by crippling opposing mons, but this means they have to sacrifice other utility options or coverage to run this move and need to devote an imposter-proof teammate to absorb Nuzzle.

For these options outlined by our tier leader, #1 and #5 seem to be the best candidates IMO.

Potential tiering action

1. Ban Nuzzle
2. Ban Glare and Thunder Wave
3. Ban Nuzzle, Glare, and Thunder Wave
4. Paralysis Clause
5. No tier action

Banning Nuzzle alone is one of the least intrusive yet still progressive actions that can be taken. It would give a needed boost to Magic Bounce users like Zama-C and Giratina, allowing them to better check dreaded Regi/Xern cores as they are currently outdone by Nuzzle. It keeps Glare around as a Speed control option that can be bounced back, ignored with Dark-types if coming from Prankster, or avoided via Taunt. Nuzzle bypasses all of these things.

#2 does not seem like it would be ultimately helpful for the metagame at all.

#3, which effectively bans all direct methods of inducing paralysis, does not sit well with me. Yeah, full paras do suck but basically eliminating two status conditions entirely from the game does not feel like Balanced Hackmons. Sure, I voted to ban sleep but I think it is a much different status condition compared to paralysis. Stun Spore is a meme, but ok.

I agree with what pretty much everyone else said about any variant of a paralysis clause. This is an awful idea. Please don't implement any sort of paralysis (move) clause.

No tiering action would be fine with me, but I don't think it would sit well with the general public. At this point, I think something does have to be done but it isn't exactly black and white.

I don't think a council vote is the appropriate step here as the council has already voted to keep Nuzzle in the past. Sure, things have changed in the metagame since this vote, but the poll made it clear that the community feels a certain way about paralysis. Suspect tests aren't perfect and communities have been banhappy or potentially uninformed / unfamiliar with the metagames, but they are here for a reason and serve a good purpose.

On Bolt Beak
You might have noticed in my recap of paralysis that the decline of Electric-types was inversely proportional to the rise of paralysis. Bolt Beak being banned was a huge factor in said decline, as it took away the best available STAB option for Electric-types.

It is incredibly clear that Tea Guzzler did not play in the Bolt Beak meta as his examples of Bolt Beak users missed by a mile. Zekrom, Regieleki, Zeraora, and even Tapu Koko would all be viable STAB users (at various levels of viability) of this move and anything with a passable Attack stat would benefit from it as coverage. Kyu-B would most definitely use this move and it's insane to think it would prefer Bolt Strike in any situation outside of like, SFLO. Having Bolt Beak in a meta with all of Glacial Lance, V-create, and Fishious Rend available is a terrible idea.

The Bolt Beak metagame was without a doubt, insane. The move in incredibly strong and splashable. However, its banning came at a weird time. The order of bans that took place to nerf physical attackers, and I've mentioned this before, is questionable. DGZ > Intrepid Sword > Bolt Beak > Zacian-C might not be the best order to tier the metagame in if it were to be done over again. Yeah, I was part of this decision making and I've discussed this issue in the past and it helped lead to the double suspect test of Bolt Beak and Glacial Lance.

Personally, I still think that the more powerful moves we have the worse off the metagame is. You can go back and look at discussions of " the sauce" issue from stresh and cityscapes for more on this too. However, I do think that the ubiquity of paralysis would decline again if Bolt Beak were allowed. I'm just not sure if this would be the best direction for the metagame.

I think we'd have to look at hypothetical scenario like this, for example, if we were to allow Bolt Beak:

• Ban Nuzzle
• Free Bolt Beak and Ban Glacial Lance
• Free DGZ

Something like this would be controversial, but I think most fans of Gen 8 BH have envisioned something at least somewhat similar to this situation at some point. These tiering decisions would potentially have the following effects on the metagame:

• Paralysis is nerfed but still usable as a Speed control option via Glare, etc
• Electric-types are move viable, adding to the paralysis nerf, thanks to Bolt Beak
• One stupidly spammable move is swapped for another, but with Bolt Beak actually having immunities and drawbacks where Glance does not
• A great physical attacker is freed and is able to pressure the current bosses of the metagame, Xerneas, Regigigas, Eternatus, and Zama-C but has to choose from less splashable Ice-type moves

There are other potential directions that the metagame could go via a variety of tiering decisions that would ultimately be bolder than most are used to seeing. This might not sit well with all, but sometimes you really just have to try something to see if it works. I'm not sure which direction the council will end up taking, but I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out and hope that the metagame comes out better in the end as a result.