Huh it says 30% on showdown, is that a mistake?
But Desolate Land doesn’t boost 2x, it’s 1.5x like normal Sun.
Lmao I've always thought it was 2x, that's wild
couple things:
Banning VQD is likely the option that has the highest impact. A VQD ban would mean that set-up users become significantly more vulnerable to raw damage, both from offensive threats and from Imposter, fixing one of the current issues of set-up (largely PH) in that it's incredibly difficult to actually kill the threats - the easiest and most splashable options simply delay the problem by forcing the threat out.
Banning Poison Heal would kick out one of the key crutches that these set-up threats have, which is infinite & passive longevity. This would largely solve the problem (especially in combination with a Moody ban), however the after-effects of no PH would significantly change the meta in a way that may not be desirable (chiefly, if Pokemon can no longer have easy infinite longevity, why bother going for longevity at all - likely leading to an offense fest). This also creates the issue of set-up mons simply shifting over to other abilities like FurScales, meaning the core problem still exists but to a slightly lesser degree.
Banning the set-up mons is likely not the play. This would serve to remove a large amount of healthy Pokemon as collateral, and people will simply innovate and move over to new users, creating a continuing cycle and an inflating banlist. This would be a net negative outcome in pretty much every aspect.
Banning the status moves that can snuff counterplay methods (Substitute and Taunt) is an odd but interesting option. Theoretically, by removing the ability for set-up threats to reliably block stuff like Entrainment, Haze or Dragon Tail, blanket checking these threats becomes easier to use and fit. However, I don't think this would work in practice and it also doesn't address the primary issue of these teams being oppressive in the long-term.
A Tera ban can be considered, which would mean that sudden Terastallizing to invalidate counterplay no longer exists, on top of making other offensive threats easier to handle. The issue here is that removing Tera doesn't change the issue of the set-up users being a matchup fish, and if anything worsens the problem of them being unkillable as offensive Pokemon can no longer Terastallize to boost damage and force switches. Therefore, I don't think a Tera ban will solve the problem here.
Moody should be considered separately from other abilities and in my opinion should be banned. By nature it's an uncompetitive ability as it forces binary and monotone counterplay, and also means counterplay can randomly fail based on timely boosts to the right stat. There is zero justifiable reason why this should stay legal, and it seems easiest to get rid of it now rather than having another Klang situation.I'm glad a discussion was sparked regarding this issue. This alone took all the words out right of my mouth, and I couldn't agree more. Not to mention that Unaware is unable to tank setup sweepers that are equipped with Power Trip / Stored Power. What I found most effective in dealing with setup sweepers was cheese-trapping them (i.e. ImpForm or Perish Song) since most of them do not carry a pivot move. But even that is stopped by Substitute or Ghost-type (Tera or not) setup sweepers. The only good thing here is that Perish Song guarantees their pressure will be gone after 3 turns, but that doesn't mean they can't just setup again (assuming they didn't let their setup mon die to Perish Song). Even with the stall team I shared, I had a Darkceus Poison Heal setup sweeper. Setup is just very strong in this current meta. With that being said, I would personally be careful with the bans because one wrong ban can turn the meta into either a hyper-offensive one, or a stall meta. I agree with banning VQD but more of like a temporary ban and then re-open the case once Pokemon Home arrives.I feel that discussion on this issue isn't prevalent enough relative to the problem posed on the metagame. Whilst there is discussion, it is largely limited to Discord and doesn't impact many actions or adaptions within the current meta.
The Set-Up Problem
What is the problem?
In short, the set-up problem revolves around bulky boosters and the inability to beat them long-term in a meaningful capacity. Most commonly, this takes the form of Poison Heal or Moody stacking, with the goal of overwhelming counterplay methods in the long term and breaking through the opposing defences. Usually, this setup is in the form of Victory Dance or Quiver Dance (henceforth VQD), and can often by supplimented by Terastallizing.
What causes the problem?
In my opinion, the problem has 3 root causes - the amount of options available for bulky boosters, lack of options for counterplay methods (particularly in the long term), and the lacking ability to force them out via raw damage. A large amount of Pokemon are able to viably run bulky boosting sets, which throws off counterplay as blanket checks become significantly less effective and reliable - there are some bulky boosters that are more common than others, such as Poison Heal Arceus forms, however the sheer variety of options means that you are never truly safe. Gen 9 took away many key counterplay options in Topsy-Turvy, Spectral Thief, and Core Enforcer, making setup more threatening and harder to punish - in the same vein, the new Victory Dance (when conbined with Quiver Dance) means that these wincons are incredibly difficult to force out through raw damage, as anything that can do meaningful damage to a boosted threat likely dies in 1 or 2 hits.
What counterplay exists to these threats?
Counterplay is mostly similar across threats, with some of the most common options being Unaware, Haze, Phazing, Entrainment/Worry Seed, Imposter, and winning faster.
If this counterplay exists, why are bulky users still a problem?
- Unaware aims to blanket check set-up users by ignoring their boosts and brawling with them through raw damage. Both their offensive boosts are ignored, meaning that the Unaware user has an easier time surviving and doesn't need Haze, and their defensive boosts are ignored, meaning that the Unaware user can deal meaningful damage back.
- Haze removes the boosts of any set-up threat, opening a small window where the threat is spending turns accumulating boosts again. It can also be used to feasibly PP stall Victory Dance (which has 16 PP unlike Quiver Dance's 32).
- Phazing aims to force the target to switch, removing any boosts they carry in the process. Both attacking phazing (Dragon Tail / Circle Throw) and status phazing (Roar / Whirlwind) are used.
- Entrainment/Worry Seed encourage the target to switch by removing their ability, which is often crucial to their attempts to set up - this means Poison Heal users are forced to switch to not die to Toxic, and Moody users aren't able to accumulate boosts anymore.
- Imposter aims to force the target out by dealing more damage than it takes, meaning the set-up user has to switch out to stay alive. Eviolite Imposter packs higher raw bulk to take hits with, but Toxic Orb Imposter takes advantage of the defensive boosts and Poison Heal better.
- Winning faster (usually with dangerous offensive threats) means set-up sweepers are largely denied the opportunity to start setting up in the first place. In this vein, the set-up users are never given a chance to be a problem.
To put it bluntly, this counterplay is largely flawed - either it's passive, it's exploitable, or it loses long-term. Additionally, a large majority of teams are only able to pack 2 of these at most, essentially creating a lottery where the opponent might have a hard counter to your counter, or they don't and now it's a fairer playing field (but, often, far from a guaranteed win).
What can be done about it?
- Unaware suffers from the issue of threat coverage - it's not possible for an Unaware user to both feasibly live every set-up threat, and also to feasibly counter-attack against every threat. These suffer from passivity issues and a limited health pool, which coverage like Precipice Blades eats through very quickly, and also do not appreciate Taunt or Substitute in any capacity.
- As mentioned above, Haze can feasibly PP stall Victory Dance and also goes through Substitite. However, whilst Haze might PP stall setup, the user's limited health pool with 8 Recovers likely can't. This, similarly to the above, can also lead to issues with set-up threats fishing for a good matchup into your Prankster mon (the main Haze user on your team), meaning it can be relied on for a much shorter time. Taunt also forces Haze users to switch, meaning something on the team is forced to take hits in order to get the Haze user back in safely.
- Phazing largely has issues with Substitute and Taunt, blocking attacking phazing and status phazing respectively. These aren't particularly reliable in the first place, since the user is forced to take a hit in order to use the moves, and set-up Pokemon often cary Tera Ghost or Tera Fairy which can completely blank Circle Throw or Dragon Tail.
- Entrainment/Worry Seed, commonly used by Prankster Pokemon, excel at forcing set-up users out in the short term as with Prankster (or Bounce) they bypass Taunt. However, the aforementioned Substitute is used specifically because it blocks these from working (and it can be incredibly difficult to both break the substitute and get the Entrainment user in with the sub still down), and the Prankster user has to take a boosted attack if they want to force the opponent out before they simply switch after the Haze. Also has issues with Dark-types fishing for the immunity to these.
- Imposter, whilst it can abuse the booster's defensive boosts, also suffers from this problem in reverse - the defensive boosts mean that the Imposter user often struggles to damage the opponent meaningfully, especially after Poison Heal. Toxic Orb Imposter loses less quickly than Eviolite but often still loses long-term due to the PP disadvantage and simply not being able to kill the opponent. Substitute existing also makes this less reliable than would be hoped.
- Winning faster is often the most reliable option since you largely don't have to deal with the variation in set-up users and can attack before the boosts get out of hand. With these sorts of teams, however, getting off of the back foot is incredibly difficult unless you have a golden matchup, and random variation in Tera or coverage can be mortally damaging.
There's a few tiering decisions that can be made to ease the problem.
I hope that this is able to spart discussion about the issue. I've also got a survey on the current BH meta coming out at some point tomorrow where we're hoping to gauge the community's views on the current situation, so we can make more informed decisions.
Lead with this guy, he's the best at breaking teams open and should usually be your tera because you can easily let imposter believe it's checking you while accruing crucial boosts. 
If they have a prankster not weak to groudon, try using these guys to beat it up, if it's not weak to groudon that means zacian can likely poison it, and if you can do neither, it's probably weak enough for arceus to power through, don't tera arc if they have an imp.
use this guy to clean up against stall teams once the prank is gone, it also baits ting lu which is passive as shit and you can usually boost up against.
this guy improofs groudon and mewtwo and can whirlwind out opposing boosters imposter is imposter use it to check offensive threats if your moody mons don't get the right boosts, it basically acts to give you more chances to proc moody properly
Ty I just learned g tactics isn’t banned lol
I don't think it's that the council didn't take Gorilla Tactics seriously, it's that GT is likely already going to be quickbanned but the council hasn't shared that action yet because they want to get more feedback on other stuff first so multiple votes can be held. I doubt feedback would have mattered regarding Gorilla Tactics which is why it wasn't mentioned.
Honestly I think that Victory Dance and Quiver Dance boosting defense makes PH too hard to break offensively. I've always looked at move bans having much less of an impact on a meta than ability bans, although I'm sure some people will disagree. Tidy Up is the exact same as Dragon Dance, which isn't normally an issue.
| XxLazzerpenguinxX | quojova | cityscapes | Tea Guzzler | TTTech | Result (ban - sus - dnb) | |
| Poison Heal | do not ban | do not ban | do not ban | do not ban | do not ban | 0 - 0 - 5 |
| Quiver / Victory Dance | do not ban | suspect | do not ban | suspect | suspect | 0 - 3 - 2 |
| Terrastalize | suspect | do not ban | do not ban | suspect | do not ban | 0 - 2 - 3 |
| Zacian-Crowned | do not ban | suspect | suspect | suspect | suspect | 0 - 4 - 1 |
| Orichalcum Pulse | do not ban | do not ban | do not ban | do not ban | do not ban | 0 - 0 - 5 |
| Moody | do not ban | do not ban | suspect | ban | suspect | 1 - 2 - 2 |
| Miraidon | do not ban | do not ban | do not ban | do not ban | do not ban | 0 - 0 - 5 |
Lonely ensures you can outspeed +1 neutral-natured Arceus after Shift Gear, but if this isn't a concern then Brave works. Circle Throw Arceus-Fire can help deal with Poison Heal users. Likely slot to replace is Heal Bell. If Gorilla Tactics isn't your thing, other damaging sets like Sword of Ruin or Ruination/Taunt can also work. Poison Heal Arceus is annoying, particularly Arceus-Dark as it's immune to Entrainment. Keeping Enamorus healthy is your best form of counterplay. Ground-types are naturally trouble since the Fur Coat wall is a Fire-type, so using Dondozo as a semi-replacement can work.
Tera your Groudon and cope with Water Spout, or try to out-offense it with Zacian.
Heavily agree with this. We all agree that there is something broken about Poison Heal rn, and while council (and several others in discord) are leaning towards VQD being more troublesome, I strongly disagree with it, as banning VQD is not only a worse option than banning PH, but it also doesn't solve the problem.
