Pokémon Barbaracle

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If your main use will be stab SE, wouldn't a sniper/scope lens set be viable? The average damage is actually higher than LO and no recoil.
 
Do you think maybe he can run a somewhat gimmicky set where he has Shell Smash and then a White Herb that leaves him with no item, but with Pickpocket ability he could steal an opponents item. Could be useful under some circumstances
 
Do you think maybe he can run a somewhat gimmicky set where he has Shell Smash and then a White Herb that leaves him with no item, but with Pickpocket ability he could steal an opponents item. Could be useful under some circumstances
It could be, but then his power is lessened. Tough claws helps a lot with razor shell/cross chop/x-scissor/poison jab and stuff. It's a fine idea, but makes it less sweeperly.
 
If your main use will be stab SE, wouldn't a sniper/scope lens set be viable? The average damage is actually higher than LO and no recoil.
Are you sure it's higher? With Tough Claws you get a much more consistent boost in power, and the nerf to Critical Hits is pretty significant compared to last gen. To me the best item choice would be White Herb if you're running Shell Smash (Which you should), or Leftovers as the OP stated. With Tough Claws and the +2 in attack I doubt he'd really need that boost from critical hits to merit its' use, the most you'd need is some residual damage from SR or spikes or something.
 
Are you sure it's higher? With Tough Claws you get a much more consistent boost in power, and the nerf to Critical Hits is pretty significant compared to last gen. To me the best item choice would be White Herb if you're running Shell Smash (Which you should), or Leftovers as the OP stated. With Tough Claws and the +2 in attack I doubt he'd really need that boost from critical hits to merit its' use, the most you'd need is some residual damage from SR or spikes or something.
Stone Edge doesn't make contact, so tough claws has no effect. But I was just trying to find a way to use his rock stab more effectively. While the high crit rate is pretty nice, stone edge's mediocre accuracy makes it unreliable. I'm trying a set with hone claws, but it seems to be generally inferior to shell smash.
 
For a Shell Smash set, Focus Sash is worth serious consideration as an item, especially since it doesn't mind the sand that's such a help to Excadrill.
 
Has anyone mentioned the fact that this guy is rock, and his SpDef is boosted in sand? I think this could be useful for allowing him to survive while he shell smashes, his base SpDef is pretty low. A TTar seems like a pretty good partner for him.

Rain is also a decent possibility since it boosts his razor shell, 50% tough claws + 50% rain + shell smash = dead pokemon.
 
50% tough claws + 50% rain + shell smash = dead pokemon.
Did you do that in your head? Wow guys, we might have a genius here! That was the most impressive damage calc I've ever seen (sorry for the sarcasm, I really couldn't resist)

Anyway, this guy could work on one of those dual weather teams that people are trying out. The idea is that you have Politoed and Hippowdon on the same team (or something to the effect) and if anyone counters one weather, you bring in the other. Most people tend to dislike the amount of prediction and team support necessary, but I think its a completely viable set that could be worth a try.
 
Did you do that in your head? Wow guys, we might have a genius here! That was the most impressive damage calc I've ever seen (sorry for the sarcasm, I really couldn't resist)

Anyway, this guy could work on one of those dual weather teams that people are trying out. The idea is that you have Politoed and Hippowdon on the same team (or something to the effect) and if anyone counters one weather, you bring in the other. Most people tend to dislike the amount of prediction and team support necessary, but I think its a completely viable set that could be worth a try.
HE HE
 
So stupid question: Does Stone Edge get the Tough Claws boost? I always saw it was an attack that didn't make close contact. Just looked it up on Bulbapedia and they say it does not make contact... so.. no TC boost?

Barbaracle the incredibly ugly was one of my first EV training projects when I played around with core training at first. I need to make a stronger one and was thinking...

Adamant
Tough Claws
@ Wide Lens
Stone Edge
Cross Chop
Razor Shell
Shell Smash

The biggest problem with Barbaracle is all the attacks it needs to use in order to get Tough Claws boost (SE?) have REALLY dismal accuracy. Wide Lens helps this.
 
It's probably mainly relevant to Barbaracle but everything is pointing towards high crit move + Scope Lens being a 50% critical rate at the moment far as recent research is concerned making Sniper a pretty good ability in fact. 50% of the time it's basically getting a 2.25x damage boost which when compared to Tough Claws/LO and considering that half the time it'll fail is still roughly the same damage boost on average. Except you get a boost on your main STAB (Stone Edge) and Night Slash and Cross Chop so overall it's a lot stronger. Worth a consideration eitherway.
 
I've always been a Cloyster fan and Barbaracle seems like a really great option with Shell Smash. The non-contact Stone Edge kind of makes me think Sniper is the better option here although Razor Shell doesn't come with a +1 crit. I assume the only egg moves available are those listed and there aren't any more undiscovered... i was really hoping for ice punch for the coverage and to punish grass types... Anyway, I´m breeding one at the moment and thinking about using this moveset:

Barbaracle @ Scope Lens
Sniper
Jolly 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Speed
Shell Smash
Razor Shell
Stone Edge
Cross Chop

Other options I´m considering

Barbacle @ White Herb/Focus Sash
Tough Claws
Jolly 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Speed
Shell Smash
Razor Shell
Stone Edge
Cross Chop

Barbacle @ White Herb
Tough Claws
Adamant 252 HP/252 Atk/6 Speed
Shell Smash
Razor Shell
Stone Edge
Cross Chop

What do you think?
 
I like the idea of a Barbaracle centred around sniper and crit moves. I've checked out what it learns with a high crit ratio. They are: Stone edge, Cross chop, Slash, Night slash, and Shadow claw. Does scope lens increase their chances of a critical hit, or is it like kings rock and only works with moves without a critical bonus?
 
I like the idea of a Barbaracle centred around sniper and crit moves. I've checked out what it learns with a high crit ratio. They are: Stone edge, Cross chop, Slash, Night slash, and Shadow claw. Does scope lens increase their chances of a critical hit, or is it like kings rock and only works with moves without a critical bonus?

King´s Rock gives you a small chance of making the target flinch, you need Scope Lens or Razor Claw for crits.
 
Does Barbacle get Head Smash? It would get a Tough Claws boost there if it did, which would be really nice despite the recoil.
Unfortunately, it does not.

More importantly, though, how much Speed investment does Barbaracle really need? 252 Speed EVs seems rather excessive for a Jolly +2 Collectivemon, unless I'm missing some key matchups for +1 (Sticky Web, I guess).
 
Barbaracle has no excuse ever to not invest in full speed, it has a 68 speed base which means it already loses to the likes of the average Cloyster and Breloom with or without boosts as it is. 68 is simply too contentious a speed base where if you do not max speed you will lose to even the average 95 base +speed Scarf user even with +2 and occasionally even a speed invested Machamp/Scizor of all things before Smash and that is a pretty shit thing to lose to.

If you want to assume Sticky Web is in play Barbaracle no matter how it runs things will always lose to +speed base 130 and above, however can barely edge the win against +speed base 120-125's, Weavile, Swellow, Alakazam, Sceptile and the such. Also for obvious reasons you'll lose to all Scarf users of the 70+ range.

There is simply no compromise, SS Barbaracle must always be +Speed 252.
 
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I wouldn't be so sure. 68 base speed with a Jolly nature maxes out at 258, putting Barbaracle at 516 speed after a Shell Smash. +Speed 252 Scarf Mienshao sits at 508, and is probably the fastest thing Barbaracle should ever worry about outspeeding. Base 95 Scarfers can only hit 475 Speed with a positive nature.

If Sticky Web is in play and Barbaracle is stuck at +1, it'll reach 379 Speed. 252+ base 120s only reach 372 without a boost, while base 125 Pokemon will always be faster if fully invested, since they max out at 383. The fastest unboosted threat you're capable of outspeeding at +1 would be +Speed 252 Greninja, who sits at 377.

Scizor and Machamp have 65 (max: 251) and 55 base speed, respectively. Even if you only run enough Speed IVs to beat +1 252+ base 105s after a Shell Smash, you should always be faster than those two unboosted. I would say that Jolly Barbaracle can usually get away with only running 240 Speed EVs, unless you have an irrational phobia of facing Greninja after getting Sticky Webbed.

EDIT: I messed up, +1 Barbaracle hits 387 Speed. That's what I get for doing the 1.5x in my head...
 
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Wait. What? A +Speed 252 +1 Barbaracle has 387 speed, what wizardry is this that Barbaracle now has 379 speed at +1? Did I screw up something?

EDIT:
Also slightly related but Adamant Scarf Diggersby also hits the maxed base 125 speed tier and is one of the most relevant things you want to beat at the moment since it is utterly devastating.
 
Wait. What? A +Speed 252 +1 Barbaracle has 387 speed, what wizardry is this that Barbaracle now has 379 speed at +1? Did I screw up something?

EDIT:
Also slightly related but Adamant Scarf Diggersby also hits the maxed base 125 speed tier and is one of the most relevant things you want to beat at the moment since it is utterly devastating.
Ah, whoops, you're right. I messed up on my mental math. Still, that's 4 points higher than max base 125s and Adamant Scarf Diggersby at +1, meaning you could probably get away with running 8 fewer Speed EVs. They aren't doing anything for you save letting you tie with another +1 max Barbaracle, which shouldn't ever happen, since an unboosted Barbaracle switching in on one that's already set up or is in the process of doing so is probably going to get crushed before it can do anything else, and Scarfing one of these bad mofos seems like a very unwise decision.
 

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So if the Scope Lens + High Crit move having a 50% crit rate thing is true, is Sniper more worth it than Tough Claws, if you chose Cross Chop, Stone Edge, and Night Slash as your attacking options? I never used this guy and was working on breeding one, and go figure I actually got one with Tough Claws and one with Sniper, and I'm kinda unsure which way to go with it.
 
So if the Scope Lens + High Crit move having a 50% crit rate thing is true, is Sniper more worth it than Tough Claws, if you chose Cross Chop, Stone Edge, and Night Slash as your attacking options? I never used this guy and was working on breeding one, and go figure I actually got one with Tough Claws and one with Sniper, and I'm kinda unsure which way to go with it.
A 50% crit rate with Sniper averages a 62.5% increase in power to appropriate moves. Tough Claws gives a 33% increase to appropriate moves, and LO gives a 30% increase to all moves, totaling a 73% increase, while being more reliable and working with a different STAB.

Of course, LO does have an HP penalty. But then there's the question of if a Shell Smash user actually wants an offensive item as opposed to something like Focus Sash, White Herb, or Lum Berry. I'd be hesitant to give that up for a random power boost. If Barbaracle needs that crit to kill a foe, it works out to be a 50% chance of dying and ending the sweep there - or more often, a 60% chance, because Stone Edge and Cross Chop have poor accuracy already. Those are not good odds to bank on.
 
I tested this guy ingame and I find it terribly underwhelming.

Even after a shell smash he doesn't do enough damage.
And I run it fully invested in speed and atk (jolly with focus sash).
Maybe I should run EQ instead of night slash.
 
It's got pretty good base stats, so what about just not using Shell Smash?

I slapped An Assault Vest on my Barbaracle, and it's shown to work really well. Monstrous 115 Defense and 86 Sp. Defense is definitely not too bad, especially when boosted by Assault Vest.

105 Attack isn't the greatest, but its still really good, and not quite in need of boosting.
 
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