Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread

[julian113]

Wanna give my thoughts a few mons in this really fun meta so far (don’t ban blaziken plz)


Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Protect
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz

Loaded up one of my first games of bdsp and took out an azumarill on the switch with an unboosted crit stone edge from 75%. This sums up my experience with blaziken in bdsp so far, fantastic. It is a lot more of a consistent sweeper/breaker without lando, pex, or fini in the tier. I think bread and butter gen 5 blaziken (plus cc obviously) is the best way to go, since protect really helps u out vs more offensive teams, and swords dance helps to ohko a lot of the dragons running around. Stone edge was more necessary with drizzle in the tier because of the prominence of pelipper and mantine, but since the targets of this move are rocks weak (mence, mantine, dnite) it’s not exactly difficult to get chip to put them in range of +2 cc. Night slash can be used to hit slowbro harder (Starmie and latis die at +2 to stab anyway, but it makes it an easier kill). I’ve actually been having fun with uturn on sd sometimes, to hit slowbro hard at +2 and dodge the scald damage, or to pivot on expected switches when you don’t want to risk an sd in case they stay in (twave jirachi, offensive ttar, etc).


Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Healing Wish

Anyone looking for a extraordinarily reliable revenge killer and a demon vs dragon spam should look no further. Gardevoir is one of the only fairies in a meta suffering from several top tier dragon types. I started using this set when I got swept by kingdra one too many times and it’s impressed me greatly even in a no drizzle meta. It reliably revenge kills chomp, latios (comes in on this one comfortably), non-scarf infernape (can come in on mixape decently), victreebel/venusaur, and is a great cleaner overall in most mus. Set is pretty self explanatory, strong stabs, focus blast for steels, and healing wish to heal up a teammate in a pinch. You can afford to run modest since there’s no major targets between those tiers (unless ur a crackhead who switches straight into the blaziken sd and you don’t wanna risk the speed tie) and the extra power helps it pick up ko’s with focus blast. This set is best suited to offensive teams that can’t afford to cover all bases defensively and need a rkiller in a pinch for threatening mons like chomp and latis that applies strong offensive pressure as well.

I’ve been using these mons on a sun team I’ve really been liking. Don’t have the paste but it was something along the lines of
Tork/vic/blaziken/zard/glisc/gardevoir

 

[RextheNoname]

Thoughts on different parts of the Meta:

I'm really glad with how this ban turned out, as there were numerous rain abusers. Manaphy never really swept under rain, and I feel was a bit blown out of proportion on Rain due to the concept of Hydration + Tail Glow. Manaphy is now at its best on Webs for its pretty solid Speed and access to Tail Glow. Weather Manaphy is actually broken on webs is a discussion for a different day, as Latios makes Webs significantly worse due to levitate and its massive Special Attack Stat.

Blaziken has been talked about extensively as being super overpowered due to Swords Dance and Speed Boost. I personally don't find Blaziken to be nearly as overbearing as some say it is. For starters Blaziken can easily be dealt by doing the following steps:

Step 1: Hit Blaziken with an at least somewhat Hard Hitting Attack
Step 2: Switch in a physically bulky mon to take a hit or two.
Step 3: Sac a mon or saftely switch into a mon with Priority if Blaiken isn't already dead after chip damage from Step 2.

When you take into consider Life Orb, Flare Blitz Recoil, and Hazards, Blaziken is super easy to chip down to Priority Range. That being said I wouldn't be entirely opposed to a Blaziken Ban, as Blaziken is a monster in the right hands. Though I'm trying to point out that Blaziken isn't impossible to stop, given that most teams have priority to revenge kill it.

Latios is way to overbearing for the tier. Lati is near impossible to switch in no matter the set, and the only real counter is Blissey. Not feeling like predicting? Click Draco Meteor and KO anything that comes in! If you're reading this you likely already know that this thing does far to much damage no matter the set. If that weren't enough this thing Gets Surf and Thunderbolt so have fun destroying everything while it's still around

After Latios and maybe Blaziken are taken care of these should probably be looked into, I've seen Special Mence + Scizor being looked at as a great core and Garchomp Destroys everything that isn't named Skarmory. Both seem pretty nutty, but the others should be taken care of first



Sun

Following the banning of Drizzile Sun has been looked at to replicate the dominance that Rain had. Though after using it most of us came to the conclusion that Sun is nowhere near as easy to spam as Rain. It's harder to replicate the force that Kingdra's Draco Meteor's had, but I don't think sun is bad. Sun is simply requires more brain power than spamming a +2 Draco Meteor in Rain. Here's my thoughts on the picks.

Reliable setting of sun, but not very thretening to most teams.

Tales is the opposite of Torkoal, very threatening but not super reliable due to the lack of bulk.

A solid Addition to any sun team, though it lost weather ball making it less than optimal

Less bulky than venu, but you do get Weather ball making it a nice alternative.

Yeah, go ahead and switch this thing in when every team has rocks on it. I wish you good luck.

Strong Scarfer under sun and Eruption destroys everything.

This meta is better without rain but still has some bad apples holding it back.

 

[Patar136]

Wanna give my own thoughts on mons that I really enjoy seeing in this meta. Please don't ban Blaziken btw.

Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

My favorite Pokemon is definitely a fun fight to see in OU. With one round of Dragon Dance, it can hit a speed of 382 and an attack of 508. With this, it can OHKO a lot of threats including Blaziken, Infernape, Tyranitar, Rotom-Heat, Gliscor, Magnezone, Metagross and Empoleon that don't have berries to resist Earthquake. It also seems to be able to OHKO most dragons except the Yache Berry variants, who still take massive damage. Waterfall also does respectable damage on many steels including Scizor, Skarmory and Magnezone and Earthquake OHKO's the later. If you get lucky and get 2 DDs, you can kill OHKO Blissey easily, the Lati twins and any Clefable not using unaware. Ice Punch destroys the dragon spam with a DD up and life orb just adds even more kill power, though you need a DD first and Dragonite only dies when chipped by rocks. The biggest issues it has is getting worn down by rocks on repeated switching in and out and unaware mons definitely cause issues as they negate any boosts from DD. With rain gone, (a decision I believe was rushed btw), sun teams are also a hindrance as they ensure that waterfall isn't nearly as strong. Players can add a lum berry in remove status afflictions, which Feraligatr also dislikes, but Life Orb is usually the preferred item for extra power. Scarf users can cause issues but if Feraligatr can take a hit it will usually OHKO the revenge killer after a boost. In terms of priority, it resists both Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch which is especially useful against Scizor. This is a fairly strong wallbreaker and it is a sight to see this Johto mascot ripping through teams. Common checks so far include Breloom, Zapdos, Raikou, Multiscale Dragonite and Scarf Gengar though all of these mons are afraid of one of the coverage options Feraligatr packs. The best check is probably Gyarados with Intimidate and Rotom Wash.

Typhlosion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Solar Beam
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast

While not as usable as Feraligatr, requiring dedicated team support, Typhlosion finally has a small niche in OU. While inferior in power compared to Solar Power Charizard, Typhlosion has two things and two things only going for it: not being as damaged by Stealth Rock and STAB Eruption. In the sun, Eruption is very strong and can rip through mons that don't have a useful resist. On offensive teams, Typlosion is a good special revenge killer that will open up holes for its teammates. Steel types hate eruption and if you can get the prediction right this offers immediate killing power. Fire Blast is for low health (though Overheat is possible for a single attack) and is reasonably powerful. The other two moves are for coverage, with Focus Blast used primarily for Heatran and the rare Houndoom and Solarbeam being useful in the sun to catch certain mons like Azumarill, Rotom Wash, Rhyperior and especially Gastrodon off guard. Biggest issues I have with Typhlosion is keeping hazards off the field. While less vulnerable to them than Charizard, hazards cut into Eruption's power and since that is the main reason to run this set you need to provide team support. A defogger and spin support from Torkoal is usually required to get the most out of Typhlosion. It also can't hurt special walls well aside from Slowbro and Slowking in sun and gets whittled down by priority, especially aqua jet and extremespeed. I run blaze to ensure that fire blast has that extra power when weakened and to ensure that Gardevoir and other tracers can't just come in on eruption for free by tracing Flash Fire. With dragon spam common on teams, it is not easy to use Typhlosion and can't be slapped onto any team without thought. Outside sun, water types wall it pretty hard. Most Heatran also wall this set, as Focus Blast can only 2HKO which is hard to pull off with the low accuracy. But with careful strategy, this mon is once again a sight to see on the battlefield.

 

[Patar136]

Thoughts on different parts of the Meta:

I'm really glad with how this ban turned out, as there were numerous rain abusers. Manaphy never really swept under rain, and I feel was a bit blown out of proportion on Rain due to the concept of Hydration + Tail Glow. Manaphy is now at its best on Webs for its pretty solid Speed and access to Tail Glow. Weather Manaphy is actually broken on webs is a discussion for a different day, as Latios makes Webs significantly worse due to levitate and its massive Special Attack Stat.

Blaziken has been talked about extensively as being super overpowered due to Swords Dance and Speed Boost. I personally don't find Blaziken to be nearly as overbearing as some say it is. For starters Blaziken can easily be dealt by doing the following steps:

Step 1: Hit Blaziken with an at least somewhat Hard Hitting Attack
Step 2: Switch in a physically bulky mon to take a hit or two.
Step 3: Sac a mon or saftely switch into a mon with Priority if Blaiken isn't already dead after chip damage from Step 2.

When you take into consider Life Orb, Flare Blitz Recoil, and Hazards, Blaziken is super easy to chip down to Priority Range. That being said I wouldn't be entirely opposed to a Blaziken Ban, as Blaziken is a monster in the right hands. Though I'm trying to point out that Blaziken isn't impossible to stop, given that most teams have priority to revenge kill it.

Latios is way to overbearing for the tier. Lati is near impossible to switch in no matter the set, and the only real counter is Blissey. Not feeling like predicting? Click Draco Meteor and KO anything that comes in! If you're reading this you likely already know that this thing does far to much damage no matter the set. If that weren't enough this thing Gets Surf and Thunderbolt so have fun destroying everything while it's still around

After Latios and maybe Blaziken are taken care of these should probably be looked into, I've seen Special Mence + Scizor being looked at as a great core and Garchomp Destroys everything that isn't named Skarmory. Both seem pretty nutty, but the others should be taken care of first



Sun

Following the banning of Drizzile Sun has been looked at to replicate the dominance that Rain had. Though after using it most of us came to the conclusion that Sun is nowhere near as easy to spam as Rain. It's harder to replicate the force that Kingdra's Draco Meteor's had, but I don't think sun is bad. Sun is simply requires more brain power than spamming a +2 Draco Meteor in Rain. Here's my thoughts on the picks.

Reliable setting of sun, but not very thretening to most teams.

Tales is the opposite of Torkoal, very threatening but not super reliable due to the lack of bulk.

A solid Addition to any sun team, though it lost weather ball making it less than optimal

Less bulky than venu, but you do get Weather ball making it a nice alternative.

Yeah, go ahead and switch this thing in when every team has rocks on it. I wish you good luck.

Strong Scarfer under sun and Eruption destroys everything.

This meta is better without rain but still has some bad apples holding it back.

I agree with this analysis a lot. Blaziken is indeed strong but I don't think it is ban worthy. I would be in favor of banning the Lati twins though as they seem to be absurdly powerful. And Manaphy for that matter. They seem to be the biggest culprits behind rain being so powerful as Kingdra and other sweepers in rain are pretty useless outside of it.

Other sun abusers I would like to see examined include Dragon Dance Tropius which might be viable in sun, Jumpluff (whom I believe is the fastest chlorophyll abuser) which could probably disrupt set up with encore and sleep powder despite its frailty, Trangrowth which is especially bulky with the reliable means of sponging hits and battling ground types and Cherrim among others. Sun isn't nearly as strong as rain but it is certainly usable and viable in the hands of a skilled trainer.

 

[ausma]

Hey everyone, it's about time I've made my debut. As a member of the council, I'd really like to give my thoughts on the metagame and sort of the big things that we've been seeing/I've been trying, and of course I would also like to use this as an opportunity to create some transparency as to what I see as being an issue or underrated. I will also be sure to provide sets for all Pokemon I mention so you can try them out yourself, and I will order them top to bottom, which represents best to worst respectively.

Polarized Threats
Pokemon that I currently see as being extremely threatening in the current metagame and hugely polarize progress made in games.


While the Rain ban has hurt it, Latios remains a very popular and incredibly dangerous force in the current metagame, and it's not at all surprising to see why. When viable Fairy-types are incredibly sparse, its Draco Meteor is obscenely difficult to consistently pivot into. Many of our Steel-types do a solid job keeping its Dragon-type STAB capstoned, though all not named Scizor get smitten by Thunderbolt, Surf, and/or Shadow Ball, and/or can get overwhelmed pivoting into its Draco Meteor in the long term. In fact, Latios singlehandedly is hugely responsible for a lot of the Steel-type cores we are seeing right now since it has so many combinations of options to break and overwhelm them. However, we've also seen Magnezone as a very popular partner to form the classic DragMag, which abuses a lot of Latios's standard checks for wallbreaking opportunities and/or forces critical ranges against things like Scizor and Jirachi thanks to Magnet Pull.

Aside from an incredibly nuclear Draco Meteor, Latios's premium Speed tier, access to boosting/utility, an added STAB in Psychic to pressure Fairy-types, and ability to stay healthy with Recover to outlast several of its checks makes it an incredibly reliable long term wallbreaker and win condition that almost always makes progress. While it can be beat feasibly, scouting it can be dangerous and will typically lead in very devastating progress being made due to how spammable its Draco Meteor generally is, and how its access to other options can lead to standard Draco Meteor checks being shut down or more readily overwhelmed. In my eyes, it is most certainly a top 3 Pokemon in our metagame.

Viable Sets

Specs Wallbreaker
Latios (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Psychic
- Surf / Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball

3a + Recover
Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt / Surf / Shadow Ball
- Recover

Choice Scarf
Latios (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt / Surf / Shadow Ball
- Memento / Thunderbolt / Surf / Shadow Ball

Calm Mind
Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Surf / Thunderbolt
- Recover

---


Garchomp is an infamous return to a Generation 4-based metagame, and has taken it by storm as one of its best wallbreakers alongside Latios with a brutal dual STAB combination, great speed tier/natural bulk, Swords Dance, and effective coverage. Losing out on Scale Shot has relegated it back into its classic role of a wallbreaker and offensive Stealth Rock setter, however numerous of its checks have been snapped away in this limited metagame, which has been a net positive for it and making it much more egregious to keep at bay without dedicated answers. A major plus side is that there are a fair amount of options to revenge kill it, so it isn't going to consistently seize games mercilessly. However, a set I've been using and believe is its best set is SubSD. Substitute allows Garchomp to abuse its nice bulk, typing, and ability to force switches in order to safely wallbreak and make it easier to avoid being revenge killed, and Earthquake + Stone Edge covers the entire metagame outside of stray Bronzong and Skarmory. Garchomp has been a very popular abuser alongside Latios on DragMag structures; while it is much more self sufficient as a wallbreaker, having Magnezone to force pressure against Scizor and Bronzong, while abusing Clefable in tandem with a Latios of your own makes it even more difficult to hold down.

Viable Sets

SubSD
Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

SD + 3 Attacks
Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Choice Band
Garchomp @ Choice Band
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Claw

Choice Scarf
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Fire Blast

---


Alakazam is one of the best wallbreakers in the game, though has yet to have its breakout due to Latios's prevalence as a more damning Psychic-type. Both, however, can shine together to form a devastating PsySpam core which is absurdly difficult to keep at bay. Magic Guard allows it to make use of a Life Orb to freely break with perfect neutral coverage provided by Psychic/Psyshock + Focus Blast + Shadow Ball; even without a Nasty Plot or CM boost, Life Orb alongside its incredible speed tier make it a premier revenge killer and win condition that is relatively difficult to safely revenge kill itself without priority or a Choice Scarf, or even pivot into without a Scizor. While its defensive utility can be fairly moot, to underestimate it is a criminal mistake, as it can violently seize games. While 3a is by far its best set, Recover and Magic Guard can let it pull off some nasty endgames by exploiting its speed tier, inherently defensively-inclined Steel-types, and great coverage.

Viable Sets

3 Attacks
Alakazam @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot / Calm Mind
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball

Recover + 2 Attacks
Alakazam @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Focus Blast / Dazzling Gleam
- Recover

---


Even though it lost Knock Off, the generally lower power level of the current metagame is much to Blaziken's benefit, as its dual STABs at +2 are more than enough to cleave past resists and thus letting it afford Protect to also operate as a flexible revenge killer. Since it can now more freely run Protect, it has a lot more room to set up by forcing more switches. Once it gets going, it is very hard to stop without Unaware or a Slowbro, and both Unaware users are still forced into critical ranges in order to stop it. While it takes a bit more to get going than Alakazam, there is very little to really stop it once it does due to its resistances to every relevant priority move and maddening power.

Viable Sets

Swords Dance
Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Protect

---


Manaphy was one of the biggest losers of the Rain ban, but even with it gone its access to Tail Glow and insane natural bulk lets it maintain its role as a bonafide fat shredder. Thanks to a single Tail Glow boost giving it sufficient power and its very solid coverage options letting it beat Water-type resists, it's an offensive Pokemon with a lot of options to be mixed and matched, letting it fit on a wealth of structures as a top tier win condition. However, without Drizzle, its ability to keep up the pressure against more offensive balances with Rest + Hydration is mitigated, however it is an absolute pick machine, taking very violent trades and forcing critical damage on Water-type checks. It's unsurprising to see so many structures with dedicated answers, and while it is much more readily shut down by offensive structures than it was pre-Drizzle, it is still a monster worth prepping for.

Viable Sets

Salac Berry
Manaphy @ Salac Berry
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Energy Ball
- Substitute
- Surf

RestTalk
Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpA / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Tail Glow
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

3 Attacks
Manaphy @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Energy Ball
- Ice Beam
- Surf

ChestoResto
Manaphy @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpA / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Energy Ball / Ice Beam
- Tail Glow
- Rest

---


Its access to Magnet Pull lets it trap Steel-types, either outright removing them or critically damaging them to open up Dragon-types like Latios in the endgame. Magnezone has now lost Body Press alongside Hidden Power, but its Choice Specs set is maddeningly strong in a metagame with very few switch-ins, and Rabia 's sauce Thunder Wave + Protect set is an underrated set that can scout Choice locks amazingly and debilitate pivots like Latias, while utilizing full paralysis and Protect to win some pretty silly 1v1s against things like Jirachi and Scizor. Its sets are somewhat limited but it is still amazing at what it does, and is in some respects better off.

Viable Sets

Choice Specs
Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Explosion

Thunder Wave + Protect
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Thunder Wave
- Protect

Honorable Mentions:
/ - Dragon Dance sets are beastly
- +2 Shadow Ball is egregious to pivot around and it has coverage up the ass
- SubPunch is a comical breaker that takes advantage of Rotom-Wash structures, Swords Dance takes picks like fuck
- Banded and DD sets are really good
- One of the few viable Fairy-types, Belly Drum and Banded are silly and its dual STAB combination is near unwallable
- Losing out on Knock Off and Triple Axel is a monumental loss, but its speed tier and powerful STAB combination make it a terrifying Band user as evidenced by the Charity Bowl
- SD is outclassed by Blaziken, but choice sets and nasty plot are still highly viable in their own right.

Highly Viable Picks
Pokemon that aren't necessarily polarizing, but still are incredible picks in their own right worth considering on teams for their combined offensive and defensive merits.


Scizor is in my eyes probably the best (or at least most consistent) Pokemon in the metagame due to its insane role compression making it a top-tier glue and wild defensive profile that keeps a gigantic range of threats at bay. Between access to boosting, STAB U-turn/priority, recovery, Defog, and being probably the best Steel-type in the tier that prominently beats the Latis, it is crazy how many structures it can find itself on with a wealth of roles that it can consistently fulfill. Losing out on Superpower and Knock Off is really awful for it, but truthfully its defensive profile is really what lets it shine as well as it does, and it's something that can feasibly be considered in nearly every team either as a wallbreaker, defensive pillar, and/or pivot.

Viable Sets

Defensive Pivot
Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Roost
- Swords Dance / Defog

Swords Dance + 3 Attacks
Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Quick Attack
- Brick Break

Choice Band
Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- X-Scissor / Night Slash
- Brick Break

---


Gliscor was the most hyped threat going into BDSP OU's eclipse, and while it is definitely not broken, to call it bad is far from the truth. It is behind Scizor as being one of the best Pokemon in the metagame for fairly similar reasons, boasting some beastly role compression, boosting options, and of course its iconic Poison Heal shenanigans making it obscenely difficult to make progress against. Unsurprisingly, Gliscor is a very customizable threat with STAB Earthquake, Facade, U-turn, and Ice Fang, great utility, and splashability letting it slot onto virtually every structure. However, in such a Dragon-type centric metagame, it can either do a lot or very little; however, to me, Gliscor will always be a premier pick and will likely grow even stronger in viability once the polarity of the offensive metagame begins to stabilize.

Viable Sets

SpDef Utility
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 220 SpD / 44 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock / Defog
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Roost

Swords Dance
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 116 Def / 148 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Facade
- Earthquake
- Roost

---


Bluntly, Heatran has seen better days. Losing out on Toxic, many Magma Storm targets, and a crippling vulnerability to Gliscor/Garchomp make it hard to consistently get value out of on a game-to-game basis. Though, this being said, Heatran is still a highly viable pick as a very solid Latios check, Stealth Rock setter, and progress maker. While trapping may not be as in the cards as it used to be, Roar and Protect give it very solid disruptive abilities that can throw off setup and let Magma Storm/Stealth Rock chip pile up consistently. Offensive sets have also seen heavy use on Sun structures and VoltTurns, and the standard Heatran answers such as Garchomp and Gliscor that throw off its defensive variants have a much trickier time pivoting around them. Torment Heatran is a fire set which exploits the fact that most Pokemon lack more than one move to break Heatran, and one that has had new life breathed into it thanks to Lumari and Eve; I'm not ashamed to say I got put down hard by it, especially when paired with Toxic Spikes to exploit the empty turns that TormentTran creates.

Viable Sets

Stealth Rock
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Magma Storm / Lava Plume
- Roar
- Protect

Choice-locked
Heatran @ Choice Scarf/Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Solar Beam / Magma Storm / Flamethrower

Torment
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Torment
- Substitute
- Protect

---


Starmie has it amazing in this metagame and is a premier pick on offensive structures as offensive removal. Having such a powerful speed tier is really good in a Lati-infested metagame, its Rapid Spin utility is great as always, and its Analytic-boosted Scalds and coverage options are egregious to pivot around.

Viable Sets

Offensive Removal
Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin
- Recover

3a + Recover
Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt / Psychic
- Recover

---


Clefable's loss of Soft-Boiled and Knock Off is greatly unfortunate, but consequentially it has become a much more dynamic defensive Pokemon since it has to rely on the inconsistent Moonlight or rely on Wish, also requiring Protect if used on its own. Funnily enough, in this metagame, Unaware is by far the superior variant due to the rampant setup sweeping we see from Garchomp, Lati@s, and Manaphy, however Magic Guard remains viable on offensive variants. Despite some debilitating losses, being a viable Fairy-type is really important to deter Outrage and Draco Meteor spam, and of course it still brings quite a bit of utility to the table that it's highly known for and it loves the lower Heatran usage. It is not a top tier pick and its respective movesets are fairly structure-dependent, but it is still highly viable as a Calm Mind win condition and defensive pillar for teams in need.

Viable Sets

Utility
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Moonlight / Protect

CM + Unaware
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 36 SpD / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
- Moonlight

---


Tentacruel is a criminal sleeper pick that picks up the slack in a meta lacking Toxapex. Tentacruel is one of few Pokemon that kept Knock Off in the shift to BDSP, viably Rapid Spins, and has an insane defensive profile that beats Infernape/Blaziken, Azumarill, and Scizor while making very safe progress with Scald/Knock Off. It did lose out on Toxic/Toxic Spikes, but Knock Off and Rapid Spin do wonders for it and allow for it to thrive on structures that appreciate Steel-type disruption, reliable removal, and safe progress-making.

Viable Sets

Defensive
Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Knock Off
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Protect

Honorable Mentions:
- Defensive variants are great Rocks setters and great Special walls
- Blissey does Blissey things
- Underrated physical wall with wide utility, Regenerator, and ability to stone wall Blaziken/Infernape
- Lack of recovery sucks, but it boasts a great defensive typing, a powerful Scald, a lot of utility, and surprisingly potent offensive variants
- One of the better anti-Manaphy measures in the tier, but cripplingly passive and exploitable. Checks non-Thunderbolt Latios well
- An undiscovered menace with Neutralizing Gas + Toxic Spikes, stone walls breakers like Breloom and punishes ability-reliant Pokemon very well
- Decent glue with a premium defensive profile, but gets overwhelmed easily due to lacking Pain Split

 

[Red Raven]

Been playing this for a couple days now so wanna give my two cents on this



As others already mentioned, dragons are insane in this metagame. This is what ou should be. Where fire breathing monsters rule the tiers instead of some damn pixies that are somehow immune to said monsters. While the loss of a bunch of moves hurt, at least the fire breathing monsters are the gods of the tier

Mence in particular is one of my favorite to spam. It has the strongest banded outrage which destroys just about everything and has moxie which makes it even more difficult to switch into. Even steels have trouble stomaching its hits. Salamence has always been the incarnation of offense given its high attacking stats and it's really good to see it so strong once more

Flygon is an interesting one. I haven't used it much because Garchomp exists but I've been enjoying this with Mence. Salamence hates hard switching in to something so Garchomp's older brother makes a good partner. Dragmag is a thing but I refuse to stoop that low to spam my dragons. I think scarf is probably the best set as Flygon's little brother probably does the other stuff way better than it

In all honesty, I rarely run into Latias and I find it rather difficult to use compared to its brother. I mean, if you're just gonna use one Lati, why not the one that hits harder? There's probably a bunch of stuff I'm missing about it but running double Lati for double draco trouble is really fun



In many ways, Raptor is just like Mence, only this time, it's stabs hits harder thanks to reckless. Staraptor is without a doubt, a very difficult mon to switch into especially without the likes of Toxapex to withstand its hits. On the other hand, it also dies really quickly so I guess it isn't too bad but man does it hurt

Out of all the mons in the tier, I find Mamoswine to be the biggest pain in the ass. Its ice shard almost ensures that no fire breathing monster will sweep your team and it still has freeze dry which just makes Rotom regret trying to wall it. Being able to threaten the ever obnoxious Gliscor with instant death is also a huge plus. I haven't used it enough but I would say that Mamo is almost as threatening as the dragons are just because of its insane stab combination. My favorite set is nmi with sub, stabs and freezy dry, ala Kyurem. Depending on the team, I would replace freeze dry with ice shard but given that sub provides a ton of protection, I rarely use ice shard

What happens when there is no pursuit? Yeah, Gengar becomes a menace. It's a shame that gamefreak didn't give it levitate back but without a certain child abusive ghost type, Gengar is one of the most annoying mons. Specs or nasty plot just destroys everything and its stabs is near unresisted. I haven't run into a single Tyranitar so my Gengar has been having a field day

Starmie is one of my favorites rn. Surf, spin, boltbeam is just a fun and simple set. Suddenly, that scarf Lati is slower and now dies and it threatens Mamoswine with instant death. For one reason or another, I've been having difficulty finding hazard removal options and on every team, I just use Starmie. It can clean up so hard at the end of the game

You gotta love to see it. In gen four, fire monkey completely outclassed fire chicken and now, the tables have turned. If there is one mon that can clean up harder than Starmie, it is Blaziken. Slowbro isn't that common, as far as I've seen, and it can threaten to immediately drop a slightly chipped and ever obnoxious Gliscor with sd boosted flare blitz. It even gets shadow claw for the Latis and Slowbro. Without Pex, this thing is a huge pain that it makes me wonder if it's gonna get banned



Ahh, the 'fuck poison' mons. As always, Gliscor's poison immunity still makes it the biggest pain in the ass but surprisingly, it isn't too hard to deal with since Starmie and the Latis are everywhere. I was actually expecting this to be the most irritating thing in existence but I am genuinely surprised that it's not. One thing I will say though, it is good to finally have Heatran's one true counter back and if swsh and bdsp ou are ever gonna be merged or something, I would really look forward to making Heatran as miserable as possible

Somehow, Breloom is even more annoying that Gliscor. Spore is just a ridiculous move imo and it's passive recovery is annoying. I've been copying some old bw movesets for it and this mon is just hilarious. Sub + focus punch just dents everything while sd + technician mach punch also dents faster threats, even resists if they're low. Too bad that it gets kinda overshadowed by the dragons in the tier



Of the entire tier, I find that these two are the strongest and easiest to use. I can't even decide if it is Garchomp or Latios that is the best mon in the tier rn. I didn't group them together with the other dragons as I think they are better than the others and can just fit on every god damn team

Latios in particular just spams draco meteor and steels can barely take it without losing nearly half their life. It's the one mon that makes you glad you put Jirachi on your team because it almost ensure that Latios is never gonna do too much. While it is strong, I'm not too sure if it's banworthy. Then again, I put Jirachi on all my teams so there's that. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets banned as its dracos are so strong

In a lot of ways, Garchomp is like the physical version of Latios. They both have the exact same main offensive stats and are faster than most of the threats. My favorite set thus far is salac berry with substitute or endure. The choice between the last move sucks. Endure guarantees the salac boost while sub provides safety especially against Mamoswine but can sometimes be unreliable. Scarf sets are also very strong cleaners and sd is sd. Everyone else already said how good this mon is so I'm not gonna say too much. I will say that the only reason I don't play this tier that much is simply because I'm so salty that Garchomp didn't get dragon fucking dance. Jesus christ

 

[Morkal]

So something that I've been experimenting with in Sword and Shield's OU metagame turns out to be just as nice in BDSP OU's metagame as well. This is just going to be a quick little post, nothing too over the top.

Yawn

Yawn is an overlooked move that essentially acts as a two-turn sleep inducer. Your opponent enters a "drowsy" state when you use the move, then on the next turn (if they don't fall asleep), they fall asleep. This move is essentially either an assured sleep or switch, meaning that you instantly shift momentum into your favor arguably in some situations more than traditional sleep moves like Sleep Powder. On top of this, Yawn bypasses accuracy checks, so it's technically a more accurate sleep inducer than Spore is.

There's a massive list of Pokemon that have Yawn, some notable ones include all of the Eeveelutions, the Slowtwins, Gastrodon, Hippowdon, Walrein, Snorlax, Togekiss, Kingdra, Empoleon, Torkoal, and Uxie.

As a bonus, I'm gonna talk about one of the Pokemon I've been using Yawn with, Jolteon.

Jolteon

130 Speed, 110 Special Attack, Volt Absorb's electric immunity + recovery, access to STAB Volt Switch along with STAB Discharge/Thunderbolt, and nice coverage in Shadow Ball (Lati Twins, Slowtwins, Gengar, Starmie, etc). Yawn is an excellent tool to force out the Ground switch-ins, allowing you to Volt Switch out of a predicted switch or to manually switch if you're predicting they stay in. Jolteon has issues but is actually really good right now.

Jolteon @ Expert Belt
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Shadow Ball
- Yawn
- Volt Switch

This is the main set I've been running. Expert Belt is to avoid LO recoil while wearing down the opposing team (hence why we're going with Discharge, the 30% para chance is really nice here. Shadow Ball for the coverage, Yawn for the reasons I listed above, and Volt Switch for momentum utility. If you want a set that outputs more damage with Yawn, swap out the item for LO and swap Discharge with Thunderbolt. Aka, this

Jolteon @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Yawn
- Volt Switch

I'll post more as I experiment more in the metagame. I don't have any preliminary thoughts to share about the state of the metagame as a whole as of right now, except one deeply profound thought, which I shall put in the spoiler tag below.

Spoiler

Fuck Stall

 

[Pabloaram]

Jolteon KEKW..

In a more serious note, the metagame is more fun to play now that Kingdra and friends are out of the picture (maybe manual rain is something??) but still exist mon that define the metagame bc of the brokeness conbine with the lesser amount of pokemon and the worst moveset (looking at you Zapdos).


This two dragons and magnet thing are everywhere. Dragmag is stronger than ever and this two lizards are the two big guns. One break, the other sweep


This mon is still a demon but now that isn't inmune to status have become more easily to check with defensive teams. 100 speed is slow in this meta but the 100/100/100 bulk is still serviceable, surviving things like CB Brave Bird from the Raptor, if max Hp


The OG fire/fighting starter, the burning chicken has come back to redemee herself with his shiny speed boost ability, cleaning umprepared teams left and right


Go fast and hit hard.. 3 fast special attacker that you have to acount for rn bc you can't pursuit trap anymore. Gengar doesn't compete with Dragapult, Alakazan shines in this reduce format and Starmie is the offensive hazzard control of the tier


The lizzard in the tier doesn't really like ice cream and this two are the stronger of the bunch, utilizing they great secondary STAB to presure a giant part of the tier


The pink queen his unaware of all the Draco Meteor and Outrage flying around.


This infamous core is back in business making Stall of all thing viable in this new meta.


Sun is surging rn bc his wet cousing his ban, but the hazzard weakness and resist being everywhere make a liability most than a staple.


This "new" duo is back after the dexit and they are abnouxius has ever. Gliscor love that Lando isn't here to take his place when Breloom blast trought the tier with his little arm.

That is for now glads. Looking to see how this new face of a old gen is gonna evolve

 

[alkazoth]

Just wanted to post about a mon who IMO is severely underrated and not getting enough praise, which is Vileplume.

​

With Breloom being such a prominent threat, I felt like trying a mon who walls it dead to rights. I could've gone for Venusaur>Vileplume due to its superior physical bulk, but Plume has one thing Venu doesn't have: Strength Sap. People might not have realized that it kept strength sap in BDSP, which I can say is a fair reason for not noticing it, as without this one move I would've ignored it too. But this move allows for it to screw over top tier physical attackers, and its the reason why I prefer it over Venu for defensive roles. Physdef Plume is a great physical wall who prevents Loom and Azu from breaking teams open, and has useful utility on top of that. Here's the set I've been using:

@ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed / Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Strength Sap​

Physdef Plume allows for it to check key physical threats, mainly Loom and Azu, but I've also used it to check mons like Gliscor, Dnite, Gyara, Chomp, Sciz, and more. Strength Sap is the MVP in this set, allowing for it to lower their attack while getting itself back to full, slowly weakening them. Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb are its STABs, both of which are important to have (Giga for grounds and waters and Sludge for Clef). The last move is interchangeable between Leech Seed and Sleep Powder. I personally prefer Leech Seed because it allows it to wear down Scizor over time and can also help in healing other teammates. However, Sleep Powder is great at nullifying a potential game-changing threat, allowing for much safer switch ins to teammates. Overall, a great defensive answer to some of the hardest hitting physical mons in the meta due to Strength Sap, its utility in Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, and its typing in Grass/Poison. Would highly recommend trying it out for yourself, because I truly do think it has lots of potential in the new meta (especially worth noting since it wasn't this good in the original DPP OU meta) and surprisingly isn't too hard to fit on teams since the mons it checks are extremely relevant to the meta. Would also love to see if people have other viable sets for it, because I'd like to try those out as well.

 

[zakurenai]

lol you guys really gave in to the fearmongering
I figured Swift Swim + Drizzle on the same team would be banned since the braindead Swift Swim mons outspeeding everything in Rain is obviously the problem, not the entire ability Drizzle. How does that even make sense when the other 3 auto-weather abilities still exist? So people will just run auto-Sun now that the counterplay of auto-Rain is gone, ok lol. I understand y'all hate doing "complex bans" and prefer to ban a single thing that deals with all problems at once, but y'all should've just banned Swift Swim + Drizzle then just yeeted Manaphy out of the tier, as it's the only mon that's broken with JUST Drizzle. Oh well.

 

[ausma]

lol you guys really gave in to the fearmongering
I figured Swift Swim + Drizzle on the same team would be banned since the braindead Swift Swim mons outspeeding everything in Rain is obviously the problem, not the entire ability Drizzle. How does that even make sense when the other 3 auto-weather abilities still exist? So people will just run auto-Sun now that the counterplay of auto-Rain is gone, ok lol. I understand y'all hate doing "complex bans" and prefer to ban a single thing that deals with all problems at once, but y'all should've just banned Swift Swim + Drizzle then just yeeted Manaphy out of the tier, as it's the only mon that's broken with JUST Drizzle. Oh well.

Complex bans have not been done in generations and there is a reason for that: it sets a very dangerous precedent. If we believe the key issue is Drizzle + Swift Swim, then consequently ban it, then what is the objective reason to stop there? WIth other potentially broken threats, just don't use certain abilities on certain Pokemon and they'll be fine, surely. This can also apply conversely with Pokemon already banned. There are other things that could be in theory not broken that could be freed; for example, freeing cover legendaries provided we ban the use of their STAB moves, which follows this precedent. Ultimately, what comes of this is a slippery slope of tiering policy, where precedent to do more complex bans to address specific problems come to play, and it becomes a spiraling chain of different suspects and interactions that create messy tiering precedents and in many cases do not truly remedy the core issues. The consequences of this have already been shown with BW's meta back when it was a current generation, and many people argue BW OU to be one of our most messy and fragmented formats.

Assuming we did entertain this idea, though, it still would not address the elephant in the room. Kingdra is one of Rain's best abusers, but to say that Swift Swim is the core issue shows a general lack of understanding of how Rain has been optimally abused in the Charity Bowl and on the ladder prior to its ban. A solid amount of abusers use Rain to augment their coverage (in Latios's case), or to augment the breaking power of their STAB moves (Azumarill, Manaphy, Crawdaunt). The issue was the combination of these abusers that completely warped building, and while Swift Swim abusers are certainly very good, Water-type checks were still completely overloaded by not just Kingdra, but other Water-type wallbreakers that made it extremely difficult to contain even with dedicated counter-play. As a result of this and the effects Rain had on non-Rain teams in the latter half of the Charity Bowl, it was demonstrated that the issue was the archetype itself as opposed to any one abuser. And, lastly, we didn't target Damp Rock because Rain abusers still had more than enough time with even just 5 turns to make irreparable levels of progress against Water-type checks. This is why we chose to ban Drizzle, and we believe this will allow us to focus more on specific threats that disrupt the flow of the metagame going forward. If Manaphy shows to be a problem, as you briefly mentioned, then action will be taken.

 

[zakurenai]

Complex bans have not been done in generations and there is a reason for that: it sets a very dangerous precedent. If we believe the key issue is Drizzle + Swift Swim, then consequently ban it, then what is the objective reason to stop there? WIth other potentially broken threats, just don't use certain abilities on certain Pokemon and they'll be fine, surely. This can also apply conversely with Pokemon already banned. There are other things that could be in theory not broken that could be freed; for example, freeing cover legendaries provided we ban the use of their STAB moves, which follows this precedent. Ultimately, what comes of this is a slippery slope of tiering policy, where precedent to do more complex bans to address specific problems come to play, and it becomes a spiraling chain of different suspects and interactions that create messy tiering precedents and in many cases do not truly remedy the core issues. The consequences of this have already been shown with BW's meta back when it was a current generation, and many people argue BW OU to be one of our most messy and fragmented formats.

Assuming we did entertain this idea, though, it still would not address the elephant in the room. Kingdra is one of Rain's best abusers, but to say that Swift Swim is the core issue shows a general lack of understanding of how Rain has been optimally abused in the Charity Bowl and on the ladder prior to its ban. A solid amount of abusers use Rain to augment their coverage (in Latios's case), or to augment the breaking power of their STAB moves (Azumarill, Manaphy, Crawdaunt). The issue was the combination of these abusers that completely warped building, and consequentially showed that the issue was the archetype itself as opposed to any one abuser. This is why we chose to ban Drizzle as opposed to any one abuser, and we believe this will allow us to focus more on specific threats that disrupt the flow of the metagame going forward. If Manaphy shows to be a problem, as you briefly mentioned, then action will be taken.

Drizzle + Swift Swim was banned in BW OU (Gen 5). Smogon has made exceptions before.
In any case, if you think Azumarill and Crawdaunt getting their intended power boost from a weather condition while keeping their mediocre Speed and bulk (Aqua Jet doesn't fix everything) is enough to ban the entire ability Drizzle, then I really have nothing else to say. You're the boss here. Just know that they aren't nearly as threatening as Swift Swim + Drizzle and can be dealt with much easier in comparison, which is why they weren't even on my radar.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Drizzle + Swift Swim was banned in BW OU (Gen 5). Smogon has made exceptions before.

The consequences of this have already been shown with BW's meta back when it was a current generation, and many people argue BW OU to be one of our most messy and fragmented formats.

Drizzle + Swift Swim being banned in Gen 5 is a major reason for why Smogon has tried its damnedest to make sure that never happens again.

 

[Katy]

Hey, I wanna talk about a great Lead Pokemon in BDSP Ou, apart from the standard Colbur Berry sets, these are sets I figured can be helpful / useful in different circumstances.

The Pokemon I am talking about is Azelf - It was already great back in the DPP OU days as being a great Lead Choice or a Pokemon with a great role compression, being able to outspeed alot of common threats in the metagame gives it the edge over most Pokemon in the metagame, but lets dive into some sets I think can be great options:


Azelf @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- U-turn

Choice Specs hits pretty hard and with U-turn its able to go out of unfavorable matchups. Grass Knot hits Tyranitar for great amount of damage even under its Sandstream, fire Blast can hit Steel-types like Skarmory, Magnezone, Metagross, and Jirachi for super effective damage. Furthermore Psychic Choice Specs-boosted hits everything pretty hard which doesn't resist it. Although this set misses out on hitting Houndoom for great damage, as it is immune to Psychic and Fire Blast, but in overall this Pokemon (Houndoom) isn't that common anyway. But this Azelf set can be pretty interesting to use.


Azelf @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

Light Clay Azelf is a great set, as with its good Speed tier it can set the Dual Screens pretty reliable, Taunt is useful against opposing entry hazard setters and Stealth Rock further helps the rest of the team to break past and to secure OHKOes or 2HKoes in the progress. Reflect and Light Screen work very well together and can be useful on hyper offense team structures. I think it is definitely worth a try with partners like Dragon Dance Dragonite, Swords Dance Weavile, Swords Dance Breloom, Swords Dance Garchomp, Nasty Plot Rotom-forms, Belly Drum Azumarill, Calm Mind Clefable, Blaziken, and Tyranitar.


Azelf @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot

Life Orb Azelf can work well on the above mentioned structure hyper offense or even on offense with pivots to bring it in safely. Nasty Plot boosters Azelfs great offensive SpA stat of 125 to insane levels and with Psychic, Fire Blast, and Grass Knot it hits a majority of the tier for super effective damage. I think this Azelf set is worth a try also with partners such as Rotom-forms, Weavile, Flygon, Gengar, Gliscor, Garchomp, and Gyarados.


Azelf @ Heat Rock / @ Damp Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sunny Day / Rain Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Psychic
- U-turn

Manual Sun / Rain Azelf can also be an option, even with the ban of Drizzle, it can extend Sun / Rain turns due to Heat Rock and Damp Rock. Stealth Rock furthers the options for the team and Psychic + U-turn go well and hand in hand. Azelf can be used on Automatic Sun to help the weaker Ninetales out or on Rain to help out Manaphy, Kingdra, and Azumarill as great choices. Even tho manual Rain isn't the same as auto-rain, but it is worth a try.

I think these Azelf sets can be useful not only in theory but also in practice. They're definitely worth a try and the last set can be used as an alternative for the weather teams or to help them out further in the later aspect of the game when Torkoal / Ninetales are heavily weakened or KOed, so the sun abusers can have more turns to be deadly sweepers or wallbreakers.

Another Pokemon set I want to talk about is Rotom-Wash with the following set:


Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Nasty Plot

Fast Offensive Plot-Tom is a great and surprising set, which can demolish most Pokemon in the metagame such as Tyranitar, Mamoswine, Magnezone, Skarmory, Azumarill, Heatran, Gyarados, and many other common Pokemon can be hit hard with this set. Volt Switch can be used at the start / midterm of the game to Pivot aroudn and to get yourself with your Pokemon into a great position, whereas Nasty Plot is pretty effective for breaking in the mid- and late-game and to offensively pressure many common Pokemonin the metagame.

Other Pokemon which I do think have potential in the current metagame are:

hits hard, has a great STAB in Sacred Fire and with Choice Band it can put alot of pressure on common switch-ins.
fast electric-types can be great in the current metagame and with Scald, Thunderbolt, Clam Mind, and Substitute it is able to take advantage of Pokemon such as Magnezone.
was great in DPP and is still great in BDSP OU. Suicune is pretty much a no brainer and can play a good role on bulky offense teams.

Other notable Pokemon, which CAN play a role:








Underrated Pokemon which may can play a role in this tier:





​

This is it from me, and I hope you try out the Azelf and Rotom-Wash set. The Rotom-Wash set can also be utilized on non-Washtom Rotom-forms to catch people by surprise, as fast Rotom-forms aren't that common at the moment, therefore it's a nice surprise factor.

Have a great day everyone and have fun! :)​

 

[dhelmise]

lol you guys really gave in to the fearmongering
I figured Swift Swim + Drizzle on the same team would be banned since the braindead Swift Swim mons outspeeding everything in Rain is obviously the problem, not the entire ability Drizzle. How does that even make sense when the other 3 auto-weather abilities still exist? So people will just run auto-Sun now that the counterplay of auto-Rain is gone, ok lol. I understand y'all hate doing "complex bans" and prefer to ban a single thing that deals with all problems at once, but y'all should've just banned Swift Swim + Drizzle then just yeeted Manaphy out of the tier, as it's the only mon that's broken with JUST Drizzle. Oh well.

we aren't doing any complex bans any time soon. thanks for understanding and move on. any further posts on this will be deleted.

 

[R8]

Just wanted to post about a mon who IMO is severely underrated and not getting enough praise, which is Vileplume.

​

With Breloom being such a prominent threat, I felt like trying a mon who walls it dead to rights. I could've gone for Venusaur>Vileplume due to its superior physical bulk, but Plume has one thing Venu doesn't have: Strength Sap. People might not have realized that it kept strength sap in BDSP, which I can say is a fair reason for not noticing it, as without this one move I would've ignored it too. But this move allows for it to screw over top tier physical attackers, and its the reason why I prefer it over Venu for defensive roles. Physdef Plume is a great physical wall who prevents Loom and Azu from breaking teams open, and has useful utility on top of that. Here's the set I've been using:

@ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed / Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Strength Sap​

Physdef Plume allows for it to check key physical threats, mainly Loom and Azu, but I've also used it to check mons like Gliscor, Dnite, Gyara, Chomp, Sciz, and more. Strength Sap is the MVP in this set, allowing for it to lower their attack while getting itself back to full, slowly weakening them. Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb are its STABs, both of which are important to have (Giga for grounds and waters and Sludge for Clef). The last move is interchangeable between Leech Seed and Sleep Powder. I personally prefer Leech Seed because it allows it to wear down Scizor over time and can also help in healing other teammates. However, Sleep Powder is great at nullifying a potential game-changing threat, allowing for much safer switch ins to teammates. Overall, a great defensive answer to some of the hardest hitting physical mons in the meta due to Strength Sap, its utility in Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, and its typing in Grass/Poison. Would highly recommend trying it out for yourself, because I truly do think it has lots of potential in the new meta (especially worth noting since it wasn't this good in the original DPP OU meta) and surprisingly isn't too hard to fit on teams since the mons it checks are extremely relevant to the meta. Would also love to see if people have other viable sets for it, because I'd like to try those out as well.

While i do agree that Vileplume has probably a niche, i think it is worth mentioning it has to compete with Tangrowth. While Tangrowth doesn't check Belly Drum Azumarill and Scizor (tbh unsure if it really checks Scizor, can't it just SD forever if something is already asleep?) and cannot punish contact moves, it checks everything else you mentionned, and sporting a ground resistance and regenerator gives it a better matchup against stuff non-fire blast Garchomp, Crawdaunt, and choiced users in general. Tangrowth also has access to the currently super rare Knock Off.

I don't wanna diss Vileplume too much though, since it's a better Breloom check than Tang, which can sometimes be overwhelmed by Poison Heal Breloom (Tangrowth's sludge bomb doesn't do enough damages - which is why I think Aerial Ace on it is a fine tech on Tang if you want to threaten Breloom better), and anyone who played that meta can attest how annoying that mon can be.

 

[pix]

Just wanted to post about a mon who IMO is severely underrated and not getting enough praise, which is Vileplume.

​

With Breloom being such a prominent threat, I felt like trying a mon who walls it dead to rights. I could've gone for Venusaur>Vileplume due to its superior physical bulk, but Plume has one thing Venu doesn't have: Strength Sap. People might not have realized that it kept strength sap in BDSP, which I can say is a fair reason for not noticing it, as without this one move I would've ignored it too. But this move allows for it to screw over top tier physical attackers, and its the reason why I prefer it over Venu for defensive roles. Physdef Plume is a great physical wall who prevents Loom and Azu from breaking teams open, and has useful utility on top of that. Here's the set I've been using:

@ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed / Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Strength Sap​

Physdef Plume allows for it to check key physical threats, mainly Loom and Azu, but I've also used it to check mons like Gliscor, Dnite, Gyara, Chomp, Sciz, and more. Strength Sap is the MVP in this set, allowing for it to lower their attack while getting itself back to full, slowly weakening them. Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb are its STABs, both of which are important to have (Giga for grounds and waters and Sludge for Clef). The last move is interchangeable between Leech Seed and Sleep Powder. I personally prefer Leech Seed because it allows it to wear down Scizor over time and can also help in healing other teammates. However, Sleep Powder is great at nullifying a potential game-changing threat, allowing for much safer switch ins to teammates. Overall, a great defensive answer to some of the hardest hitting physical mons in the meta due to Strength Sap, its utility in Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, and its typing in Grass/Poison. Would highly recommend trying it out for yourself, because I truly do think it has lots of potential in the new meta (especially worth noting since it wasn't this good in the original DPP OU meta) and surprisingly isn't too hard to fit on teams since the mons it checks are extremely relevant to the meta. Would also love to see if people have other viable sets for it, because I'd like to try those out as well.

yo dawg, I think I played you on ladder as far as I remember I think your vileplume got 2hko by my play rough azumarill after belly drum but vileplume looks like a mon worth using

 

[5camp]

Yo let me tell you all about my new best friend: M A N U A L R A I N

Firstly anyone who thinks Drizzle shouldn't have been banned should try out some M A N U A L R A I N because it turns out the playstyle is totally legit and still ploughs through much of the ladder. I mean, have you ever tried looking through all the Pokemon who can learn rain dance? How about like literally 90% of them, or at least something close to that. Pick any OU Pokemon and chances are they learn rain dance. Let's throw out a few ones who are already some of the best Pokemon in the meta just to show you how many mons get the move.

Garchomp: Great speed, can set rocks as well, forces switches constantly, still gets chip off with rough skin. Ain't nobody gonna switch Torkoal into Garchomp to reset the weather lol.

Scizor: I've been using this with great success. Amazing roll compression with defog, can slow u-turn out to bring in your abusers, weakens the fire moves aimed at it.

Latias: Speed, great bulk, can double as a defog and heal with roost like Scizor. Even has the ability to healing wish to bring back a rain sweeper up to full.

Jirachi: Big collection of everything from above. Rocks, steel typing, u-turn or healing wish. Can even use Thunder for perfectly accurate move with a 60% chance to para.

And that's barely scratching the surface. You have suicide leads like Azelf and Aerodactyl, or even more niche options like Crobat, Froslass or even (god forbid) Jolteon. There's general bulky mons with regenerator like Tangrowth or Slowbro that can come in repeatedly to set the rain. There's the irritating shits like Prankster Sableye or magic bounce Xatu or even just use the free turns Blissey generates to set rain. That's before we even get into the abusers who are all perfectly happy to set it for themselves like Kingdra, Manaphy or Raikou. Even if they die while taking something down, in comes their team mate to use the remaining 2 turns to fuck things up further.

I'd like to hear what folks think are the best potential M A N U A L R A I N setters in the meta, because it's something I've only ever mucked around with in lower tiers so seeing it be completely viable in a top tier is kinda wild.

 

[air_dan]

I feel like banning damp rock would have been a better first step and see how that play out before banning drizzle. The games have been barely out plus its not even suspect tested. Drizzle should not have been banned.

 

[RaikouLover]

Manual Rain I gave a try for a few dozen battles. Not awful, but not good either. It gives up a lot of momentum. And you really don’t have time to let fricking Latios in for free.

So far in trying other strategies.. Latios and Manaphy are still broken pieces of shit that are warping the tier. In the end I predict both will end up banned anyway. It begs the question… can we wish upon a star for a Drizzle retest when that inevitably happens?

 

[pix]

yo, I would like to talk to you guys bout my fav lead in BDSP OU



Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Trick
- Will-O-Wisp

this is thing is a pain for stall, all sort of hazard leads and set up teams with trick and will-o-wisp being able to shut down phy attackers like scizor and garchomp. Volt switch allows it to keep its momentum while Hydro Pump checks Blaziken and other stuff. Tho I wish it still had pain-spilt I still think this thing is good rn.

 

[serif_Aizawa]

Drizzle ban is admittedly not something I expected but I think is necessary for the format. Manaphy has absolutely got to go though; if it's not broken now it'll become unbearable later when it doesn't even need Skill Swap to beat Mantine once it gets HP Electric

 

[JTD783]

I made it to top 20 on the ladder earlier today and I’ve decided to share my observations.

LO Alakazam is fantastic. Its speed tier and damage output are both excellent for harassing offense and a lot of teams don’t match up against it well. I’ve been using Recover + 3 Attacks (Psychic, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball) but Nasty Plot 3 Attacks and Nasty Plot Recover seem like they’d be good too.

LO Starmie functions like LO Alakazam but is slower and weaker and has Rapid Spin. By far the best spinner in the game and a total bitch to switch into if it’s Hydro Pump + BoltBeam. Balance could maybe use max HP + Recover like from ORAS?

Physdef is a nice answer to Garchomp and Breloom and a good pivot in general. It has to use lefties since Rocky Helmet isn’t in the game. Sleep Powder is clutch.

Scizor can spam U-Turn mindlessly and Bullet Punch (priority in general) is very useful. I like SpDef because it beats Lati@s and Alakazam. Physdef isn’t great imo. It’s also a reliable Defog user.

Unlike U-Turn, Volt Switch is easily punished by the multiple viable grounds in the tier. However, Raikou, the best electric in the tier imo, is a menace if they’re dealt with. It will be much better if Garchomp is ever banned.

Azumarill is a decent band user, especially because of Aqua Jet. Very helpful for pressuring fat teams.

Calm Mind sets are probably good, but Unaware sets are great right now. I hate playing against this thing.

Scarf Rotom is such a pain. Hydro Pump + Volt Switch is basically unpunishable since you always smack something and/or grab momentum. It’s also the only viable Trick user (other mons lost access) so it’s great against both fast and slow teams. I don’t know what goes in the last slot but it doesn’t really matter.

Roserade is a proxy for Spikes, which look excellent albeit hard to fit on teams. Roserade itself is one of the few viable Spikes users. If/when I ever use it I’ll try Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb/Spikes/filler, with Natural Cure over Technician because all it can use is Magical Leaf lmao. Skarmory is also viable but it’s too passive for anything outside of balance. Except for custap leads of course.

I look forward to playing this tier even more but I’ll have to wait because somehow all of my teams got erased today. Ideally I don’t have to rebuilt hundreds of teams across various metas.

 

[dunderguy]

Starmie is undoubtedly one of the best spinners, with it hard to spinblock due to a powerful Hydro Pump being blasted at any Ghost switch-ins. But I found one Ghost type to be very useful for attempting to stop Starmie in its tracks. Mismagius is bulky enough to combat Starmie and attempt to kill it/force it out.

Mismagius @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 104 HP / 236 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball / Mystical Fire / Power Gem

This Mismagius acts as a Scarfer, and is surprisingly strong too. The 104 HP EVs guarantees Mismagius to survive a Life Orb Analytic Hydro Pump from Starmie. With it being Scarf, it can OHKO Starmie with Shadow Ball. Also with the Scarf, it is EVed to outspeed a Jolly Gyarados at +1 what poor soul is using Jolly Gyarados? The last move is filler, but I like Energy Ball for Quagsire/Gastrodon.

Mismagius @ Custap Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 104 HP / 160 SpA / 244 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball / Dazzling Gleam / Thunderbolt / Mystical Fire / Power Gem

Now THIS Mismagius set has the same function as the above set, but it opts for Custap Berry, working as a one-time outspeed for Starmie. Unlike the above set, it can combat Blissey via Taunt and Pain Split. The speed is to outspeed base 90s BUT that unfortunately leaves Mismagius a very slim 4% chance to NOT OHKO Starmie if it was not Life Orb. Taking 4 of the HP EVs was too risky, as Starmie has a small chance to OHKO you. Again the last move is filler depending on what you want for your team.

Despite Gengar being the better offensive Ghost option in the tier I find Mismagius to have a small niche on teams that have many hazards to stop mons from spinning them away.

 

[Dreadfury]

Played a bit more BDSP OU after the Drizzle ban (thank you!) and I'm actually quite a fan of this meta now! I don't think it's necessarily perfect, but I haven't really found anything apart from maybe Latios particularly overbearing. I'm seeing a very surprising lack of mons like Salamence and Blaziken that should be amazing in theory (and probably are excellent in practice) and honestly can't say how good or bad they are as a result. Regardless, here are a few mons I've really seen putting in a lot of work lately:


Latios is, without a doubt, one of the best mons in OU at the moment. Its Speed tier is incredibly useful, its Draco Meteors and Psychics hurt like nothing else, and it has some pretty decent coverage options to boot. That said, nothing about Latios screams "this needs to get quickbanned immediately" at the moment; its 3-attacks set is amazing and Scarf is fantastic as well, but Latios feels a lot more linear because it can't run Trick or some of its coverage moves it loves in other metagames like Aura Sphere and Mystical Fire/HP Fire, so while it's incredibly strong and incredibly threatening its movepool issues hold it back just a tad in my eyes.


To nobody's surprise, Garchomp is an incredible mon. It's a good breaker and a good Scarfer, and it leverages a fantastic movepool alongside its good base stats to be incredibly threatening. I originally expected Chomp to be outright broken in this meta, but I'm pleasantly surprised to find that it really isn't broken whatsoever. It's incredibly deadly after a turn of setup, sure, but more offensive teams have plenty of tools to deal with it while Unaware Clefable anchors any defensive team nicely so Chomp doesn't just win for free. Outrage isn't at all a spammable move in this metagame, and as such Chomp has to rely on the much weaker Dragon Claw instead. Its Earthquake is amazing, of course, but it's always forced to choose between Yache Berry, Haban Berry, and Life Orb so if it wants to be able to handle threats that might revenge kill it or eat a hit and nail it with an Ice Beam it has to sacrifice a ton of damage to do so, and if it wants to maximize its breaking potential it gets picked off by priority (which this tier has a metric fuckton of) more easily instead. I think Garchomp has a very positive influence over this metagame currently.


I fucking wish we had this mon in SwSh, but I digress. Stallbreaker extraordinaire, with some legitimate offensive presence thanks to its great bulk/typing/Speed combination, and a mon that I firmly believe holds virtually any team archetype together. Almost any team is made immediately better by slapping Gliscor on it, which may be a problem later on, but at the moment I don't particularly mind it because it gets caught in the Dragon vs. Ice crossfire a fair bit. It can also check Chomp in an emergency, which just adds to the long list of things this mon contributes to a team. Easily a top 3-5 mon IMO, but I'm not entirely sure if it's the best mon in the tier.


I've been used to metagames that lacked Rapid Spin for a while now, so seeing Starmie come back with a vengeance and fulfill the same old role that made it iconic for generations is a bit cathartic. It's fantastic offensively, has a fantastic Speed tier, and has access to that now-buffed Rapid Spin for some additional pressure against weakened offensive teams since a +1 Starmie is basically impossible to outpace and OHKO. It can be bulky with Natural Cure if one wants it to last a while, or it can hit hard with a Life Orb and even Analytic to make sure nothing bar Blissey has any business eating a hit from it. It's a great mon that fills a role that I really missed from some of the other OU metagames we've had in the past.


Loom hasn't been talked about here enough, IMO, and I'm really struggling to see why. Both Poison Heal and Technician are fantastic abilities and Breloom once again abuses Spore to make the most out of its specialized movepool alongside those abilities. SubSeed+Focus Punch sets with Poison Heal have deceptive amounts of survivability while hitting like a fucking nuke, and it can always run more offensively-oriented Spore+Focus Punch sets as well as Spore+SD Technician sets as well. I would easily argue that Breloom is a top 5 mon in this metagame, and it's just so splashable to the point where, like Gliscor, it can fit on a laundry list of teams and put in plenty of work each game.