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Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Eve
- Start date
It's in the OP of this thread.
I was originally going to wait until I was eliminated from Summer Seasonal to write this post, but my impatience got the best of me, so I'm starting to write it now instead.
May I present to you all...
The Moltres Manifesto
For those of you who remember, Moltres is a mon that I first mentioned in a random post nearly a year ago now. Like many of my 'random unranked pokemon' posts at the time, this was mostly based off of speculation with little to no actual testing done prior. Since then, I have been building and experimenting with Moltres on and off, and have come to the conclusion that Moltres has a worthwhile niche in the metagame. I'll be using this post to outline Moltres' qualities, explain what niche those qualities let it fulfill, list out possible sets that Moltres can use, list good teammates alongside Moltres, show replays of its successes, and lastly, its downsides.
And one last thing before we get started,
I can't guarantee this but we'll see if I can keep it to a minimum
We'll start by looking at Moltres's qualities: its typing, stats, and abilities.
Typing:
Moltres' typing of Fire/Flying has been infamous since the days of DPP for its x4 weakness to the ever present sneaky pebbles, this horrible weakness is part of the reason why it is often led to be a lower tier mainstay since gen 4. Beyond the crippling weakness to geology, however, lies a surprisingly potent defensive typing.
(took me way too long to figure out this command lol)
Having only three weaknesses isn't all that bad, granted, one of them is a quad weakness that must be accounted for, and being weak to Water and Electric (Volt Switch in particular) can be rather annoying. However, Moltres also has a x4 resistance to Bug and Grass, as well as resistances to Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Steel, and an immunity to Ground, all of which are attacking types seen on common pokemon in the metagame. The Fighting resistance and Ground immunity in particular are notable, as our premier defensive Fire type, Heatran, is weak to both of those types, meaning Moltres isn't completely outclassed by Heatran's Fire/Steel typing defensively. Another thing to note is that Moltres is a Flying type not weak to Ice, meaning it isn't automatically threatened out by Weavile and Mamoswine, in fact, its Fire STAB moves let it threaten them out instead of the other way around.
Stats:
Moltres' stats are all around solid, nothing in particular stands out aside from the 125 base Special Attack, with everything else being below base 100 aside from its unused Attack stat. This doesn't mean that Moltres' bulk and speed are poor however, 90/90/85 bulk is still quite solid, it has more special bulk than Gliscor, as a matter of fact, and a base 90 Speed stat is still capable of outrunning a decent portion of the metagame even without maximum investment. Moltres can afford not to invest in its Special Attack due to it already being naturally high, letting it invest a lot into its bulk and speed, making it rather flexible defensively. That last point will be explored a bit more in-depth later, when we're looking at sets.
Abilities:
Anybody who has played BDSP OU before knows of the prominence of Flame Body Heatran, and as it turns out, Moltres has access to that very same ability. This of course lets Moltres be a great way of punishing contact moves such as U-Turn, Close Combat, and various other moves which Moltres' bulk lets it be capable of taking. Moltres' access to reliable recovery in Roost, something Heatran notably lacks, also helps in letting it take more hits over the course of the game, letting it potentially spread more Flame Body burns.
Pressure is another solid ability, albeit one that is mostly overlooked on anything not named Suicune. Being able to burn your opponent's PP twice as fast can be useful in certain situations, especially in regards to low PP moves such as Magma Storm, Close Combat, and even weaker Hydro Pumps in a pinch. This ability is overall less useful compared to Flame Body, but it can be the crux of some sets, as we will see later on.
Now that we've gone over Moltres' qualities, this begs the question:
In my testing, I have come to the conclusion that Moltres' main niche in BDSP OU is that of an alternative to Gliscor on certain stall teams, to be more precise, Moltres acts as a sort of in-between of Gliscor and Heatran. The primary reason to use Moltres instead of Gliscor is its better matchup spread into top tier mons such as Scizor, Clefable, Weavile, and Grass types such as Tangrowth due in part to its Fire typing, both offensively and defensively, as well as its ability to effectively spread burns with Flame Body and Will-O-Wisp. I'll list below the mons in the meta that Moltres can counter and check, with the current VR being the reference for this list.
(No Stone Edge/Thunder Punch)
(No Knock Off, maybe even with Knock Off)
(Doesn't like Sleep Powder but that's about it)
(No Stone Edge)
(No Stone Edge)
(Only here because Taunt can be annoying as hell, otherwise you're fine)
(You only switch into Play Rough but that's the same as Heatran really)
(Only here because Spore and Rock Tomb on the switch really mess you up)
(At best you speed tie, and Sleep Powder can suck)
(Scarf, no Thunder Punch)
Everything else we'll consider "Doesn't like switching in to Moltres but still threatens/beats it" or simply "Not worth mentioning (Most of C rank).
That list consists of quite a few mons, and a good portion of whom are strong in the current metagame, which shows that Moltres does indeed have a good defensive profile for the metagame. You do have to go a bit out of your way to support Moltres in the builder and in battle, but it can be well worth it in my experiences.
Physically Defensive
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 140 Def / 120 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- Roar
Perhaps the most basic set listed here, but I also find it to be the most effective out of the ones listed. The set is simple, a physically defensive spread with Will-O-Wisp and Flame Body in order to spread burns as much as possible. Roar is used on the set to phaze out any counters trying to switch in to Moltres while hazards are up, and hopefully drag in something that Moltres threatens. Roar is also useful in order to deal with Clefable, as this lets you prevent it from receiving any Wishes it has set up, while also preventing it from setting up with Calm Mind or Cosmic Power. I find that Moltres appreciates a healthy dose of Speed investment in order to outrun threats that could otherwise get the jump on it, such as Breloom, Heracross, and Magnezone. I listed those three in particular because they can be annoying for stall teams to face, and while Moltres isn't a perfect answer to them, it can provide the team with a solid check to them while still being generally useful elsewhere.
Defog
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 80 SpD / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- Defog
This next set trades the utility of Flame Body burns and the phazing capabilities of Roar for a more support oriented build with Defog and Pressure as its ability. Since Moltres actually has a surprisingly good matchup into a decent amount of hazard setters, as well as Pressure depleting hazard PP twice as fast, this set isn't as reliant on team support in order to deal with Stealth Rock. This set prefers Special Defense investment to Physical Defense, as many common hazard setters are either Special or Mixed attackers, Will-O-Wisp is useful here in order to shore up your physical bulk, alongside the obvious benefits of chip damage. Though it isn't necessary to go all in on SpDef EVs, you'll need a minimum of 56 in order to take two Draco Meteors from Life Orb Garchomp from full (252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Moltres: 323-382 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- not a KO). Below I'll list off the hazard setters in the metagame, and how Defog Moltres fares against them, using the Role Compendium as a reference.
: Poor MU, it will either taunt you and/or boom-kill itself before you can defog away its hazards.
: Neutral MU, the most it can do to you is Thunder Wave and fish for paralysis while clicking Seismic Toss, which can be dealt with via cleric support, you don't threaten it much in return though.
: Good MU, same situation as Blissey, but Celebi is less likely to carry Thunder Wave, and you threaten it with Flamethrower.
: Good MU, unless your opponent chooses not to run Wish+Protect as recovery, it is literally incapable of harming you, Protect can be annoying when it comes to blocking Defog but that's about it.
: Good MU, most it can do to you is Knock Off, and hates Will-O-Wisp with a passion, EQ on a Roost can be dangerous however.
: Neutral MU, Moltres can soft-counter the mixed hazard setter set through bulk, Roost, and Pressure, but SD/dual STABs/Stealth Rock can be more of a threat to Moltres since it can't reliably switch in to this set, acting more as a check. Either way Moltres can take any non-Stone Edge hit and burn Garchomp with Will-O-Wisp.
: Neutral MU, only saying this because it depends on two things: Does the Gliscor have Knock Off (i.e. can it deal consistent damage) and is Moltres faster than Gliscor (can it EQ after your Roost). If the answer to this first question is no, then the second likely does not apply, and the MU is Good.
: Neutral MU, very annoying MU for Heatran, as Pressure burns through Magma Storm PP like nothing. However, this MU is also very annoying for Moltres, because Taunt can shut down multiple Defog attempts. Oh and if it's Flash Fire then you do literally nothing back rip.
: Good MU, Stealth Rocks sets are incapable of fitting in an attack capable of truly harming Moltres, at most it can maybe run Taunt on these sets.
: Good MU, what applies to Celebi applies here too.
: Neutral MU, it's a Mew, you think I can give a definitive answer on this? 
: Good MU, Skarmory is melted by Flamethrower, and is easily out sped, so you can hit it with a Will-O-Wisp in order to break Sturdy on HO teams and be able to Defog before it can Taunt you.
: Poor MU, get hit with Rock STAB lmao.
: Poor MU, Scald/Hydro Pump hurts too much and Moltres is incapable of threatening Empoleon enough to prevent it from setting hazards.
: Good MU, funnily enough, the standard hazard setter set doesn't carry Stone Edge, opting instead for Crunch/Ice Beam/Flamethrower. Crunch does decent damage but is nowhere near threatening enough to stop Moltres from clicking Defog in Tyranitar's face, that being said, scouting for Stone Edge beforehand is recommended. If it does end up carrying Stone Edge, consider the MU Poor.
: Good MU, Sleep Powder can be annoying for Moltres but it is also immune to Spikes/Toxic Spikes and can threaten Roserade with STAB Flamethrower.
From what we can see on the list above, Moltres has positive matchup spreads versus a decent portion of the hazard setters in the metagame. While there is some variation in some of the matchups, generally you can expect Moltres to have either a good or neutral MU into the opposing hazard setter. It should be noted though that the two most common hazard setters in the tier, Heatran and Garchomp, are only neutral matchups, so it may not be wise to rely solely on Moltres in order to deal with these two, but more on that later.
Once again, Pressure on this set really helps in winning the hazard game, as not only do you burn through the opponent's hazard PP, but their Defog PP as well, preventing them from removing your hazards much quicker.
Offensive
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Hurricane
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
This was actually the very first set I tried out when I first started looking into Moltres. The main allure was STAB Hurricane, as this gives Moltres the strongest Special Flying STAB move outside of Ubers. STAB Flamethrower compliments Hurricane quite nicely, as it beat down the Steel types which resist Hurricane, and Hurricane hit Fire resists for solid damage. Roost gave the set longevity and Will-O-Wisp gave Moltres some utility in punishing would be safe switch-ins with burns. I eventually started looking away from this set after realizing that relying on a 70% accurate move in order to threaten Fire resists kind of sucked, especially against strong breakers like Starmie, Crawdaunt, Latias, and Garchomp. This set can probably be used to some success, but it's definitely less viable than defensive sets imo.
Specs Breaker
Moltres @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Hurricane
- Overheat
- U-turn
Only putting this here because I know a certain someone will bug me to no end if I don't. Never used Specs Moltres myself, and I don't see much reason to, because despite its high damage output, your complete lack of recovery as well as heavy reliance on 70% accurate Hurricanes to hurt Fire resists means that the set is too high risk to be truly worth it. This wouldn't be so bad if you didn't also have to play the hazard game non-stop so your breaker doesn't lose half its health upon switching in, only to miss a Hurricane and be forced out.
SubPressure
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Roar
Okay, back to my usual theorymonning. I haven't actually tested out this set yet, though I have been trying to build a team with it recently, in an attempt to see if Moltres can function well outside of stall as well. The idea would be to pair this set with Toxic Spikes and use Moltres as a means of abusing them, hiding behind a Substitute and Pressure stalling or phazing the opponent around, generally just being a nuisance to deal with. This helps since Moltres threatens the Steel types immune to Toxic Spikes, and the Poison Types either lack recovery (Nidoking, most Roserade) or are weak to Moltres' Flamethrower (Roserade in general lol).
Starmie
Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Recover
Starmie, specifically bulky Rapid Spin Starmie, is an amazing Moltres partner. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's mandatory to run if you want to use Moltres to some degree of success. Being the best and most consistent hazard remover in the tier, it's an amazing form of support for a mon who detests Stealth Rock as much as Moltres does. It has positive matchups into popular hazard setters such as Heatran and Garchomp, which although Defog Moltres can handle, it would not be advised to rely solely on Moltres to remove hazards vs those two. It can also act as a decent pivot into bulky Water types such as Milotic, the Slowtwins, and even opposing Starmie. The relationship isn't one-sided, however, as Moltres threatens the Grass types which Starmie hates to face so much, Roserade and Celebi in particular, as they are hazard setters who threaten Starmie. Moltres being able to check threats such as Weavile and Magnezone is also something Starmie appreciates.
Bulky Grass Types
Multiple Grass types can work for this role, such as Tangrowth, Shaymin, and Celebi. The main point is having some sort of bulky grass type covers the matchup versus Water types and having somewhat of an Electric Resistance. This also ends up forming a Fire-Water-Grass core between Moltres, Starmie, and the Grass type of choice, which is neat.
Tangrowth
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
Perhaps the best bulky Grass type option to pair alongside Moltres, Tangrowth is a staple on balance and stall teams because of its immense physical bulk, utility in Knock Off and Sleep Powder, the sheer absurdity of Regenerator, and because its like one of three things that can consistently switch into Crawdaunt. I don't think there's too much to say that isn't already known when it comes to Tangrowth, so I'll leave it there.
Shaymin
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Leech Seed
- Rest
- Air Slash/Aromatherapy
Personally, I'm not a fan of Shaymin in OU, but it can be used as an alternative to Tangrowth if you're feeling that way. It does worse into Choice Band Crawdaunt, but does better into the mixed Life Orb variant, so that's something to keep in mind. Seed Flare is also really good into Water types, Leech Seed healing is always useful, and Aromatherapy can be good as a cleric option. What sucks is that Shaymin lacks any recovery aside from Rest and the rather underwhelming Synthesis, alongside not being able to carry Leftovers in order to deal with Crawdaunt better.
Celebi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- U-turn
- Healing Wish
Honestly I think Celebi works best if you're deciding to run the offensive Moltres set, because I can't really see a way for it to fit on the bulkier stall teams the defensive sets fit best on. Good answer to Water types, both offensive and defensive, and can lure in the Steel types which Moltres does so well against.
It's possible Roserade can be a decent option on some balance teams, but as I've said before, I have yet to try out Moltres on those sorts of teams, so I won't comment on it much here.
Clefable
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Calm Mind
If there's one thing Clefable hates, it's Steel types. Moltres' ability to threaten these Steel types, namely Scizor, Lucario, Magnezone, and to a lesser extent, Heatran, makes it a nice partner for Clefable. Its ability to punish the contact moves of the aforementioned Scizor and Lucario with burns also means that Clefable becomes more comfortable staying in on these big threats. This can ultimately let Clefable set up for an endgame Calm Mind sweep, which can be difficult to stop once a stall team has outlasted and worn down the opposing team enough. Clefable, in turn, benefits Moltres by being able to check and counter set up sweeper like Belly Drum Azumarill, Dragon Dance Dragonite, Calm Mind Latias, and many others. Not only that, but Clefable's Wish support can help Moltres in a pinch if it needs to heal up but is struggling to find a good opportunity to click Roost.
Skarmory
Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog/Brave Bird
- Roost
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
Moltres' appreciation of Starmie's spinning capabilities means that spike stacking becomes a more effective option on the stall teams which Moltres finds itself on. Once again, Moltres can check the Magnezone which Skarmory oh so hates, while Skarmory in turn can act as a generally sturdier switch in to the likes of Mamoswine, Weavile, Staraptor, and Tyranitar. It can also act as a secondary Defogger if so desired, which can help take the pressure off of Starmie for removing hazards, which is something Moltres always appreciates.
Of course, there are always downsides. After all, if there weren't any, Moltres would have been an OU staple this whole time. These factors are why Moltres can only function on certain teams and, while good, is on the niche end of the viabilty spectrum in my opinion.
Stealth Rock
I've been trying to avoid this term as much as possible to see if it was possible to write a whole post about Moltres without saying it, but I fear that I can't shy away from it no longer. Stealth Rocks are by far the biggest limiting factor for Moltres, and are a massive reason why Moltres' viability has never really been discussed in OU. Not only do you need to prepare solid hazard removal in the builder, but you also need to play in order to keep the sneaky pebbles off your side of the field as much as possible, which can be exploited. This is why I believe stall is the best playstyle for Moltres to fit on, since not only can you fit bulky Starmie, but usually you can afford to fit a second hazard remover if needed, which gives Moltres more opportunities to come in without being mauled to death by Rocks.
Stall kinda sucks
It's a known fact among the devoted BDSP OU player base that stall is the weakest playstyle in the tier, and that is a fact that Moltres cannot hide from. While I don't believe that ruins Moltres' viability, it is a hard blow when your best play style is rarely seen and kinda stinks. From threats ranging from Crawdaunt, Magnezone, Nasty Plot Togekiss, Heracross, offensive Heatran, and many more, running stall means you run the risk of encountering a match up where you're playing on the back foot most of the game. This ultimately means that running a Moltres team is inherently risky due to the nature of the teams it fits best on.
Water types
Water types, both offensive and bulky, are plentiful in this tier, and Moltres struggles heavily against them. While it can burn them with Will-O-Wisp to nullify Leftovers recovery and cripple their attacks, it can't do much beyond that. This means that its utility vs these mons is often limited to burning them once at most, and having to fall back on its teammates in order to deal with them. Once again, having to rely on teammates isn't a death sentence for Moltres' viability, but it does limit its usefulness in certain matchups.
Conclusion
All in all, after experimenting with Moltres for the past year, I've come to the conclusion that it is a worthwhile mon in the BDSP OU metagame. It fits a clear niche on certain stall teams, an alternative to Gliscor with better matchups into various top tier mons, such as Scizor, Clefable, and Weavile, making it a sort of in-between of Gliscor and Heatran. It has just enough set variety within its rather shallow move pool thanks to its stats and abilities, which means it isn't a rigid mon capable of running only a singular set. I've seen much success with it the past year, in particular during the ongoing Summer Seasonal, so I don't think this is just a case of "good on paper but bad in practice", I think it's genuinely viable. Its flaws cannot be ignored, however, which is why it's a niche mon, and should be wielded by more experienced players who know how to bring out the best in niche mons. I hoped this post opened your eyes to Moltres' viability in this tier, and I hope more people are willing to try it out in the future.
May I present to you all...
The Moltres Manifesto
And one last thing before we get started,
I can't guarantee this but we'll see if I can keep it to a minimum
Moltres' Qualities
We'll start by looking at Moltres's qualities: its typing, stats, and abilities.
Typing:
Moltres' typing of Fire/Flying has been infamous since the days of DPP for its x4 weakness to the ever present sneaky pebbles, this horrible weakness is part of the reason why it is often led to be a lower tier mainstay since gen 4. Beyond the crippling weakness to geology, however, lies a surprisingly potent defensive typing.
(took me way too long to figure out this command lol)
Having only three weaknesses isn't all that bad, granted, one of them is a quad weakness that must be accounted for, and being weak to Water and Electric (Volt Switch in particular) can be rather annoying. However, Moltres also has a x4 resistance to Bug and Grass, as well as resistances to Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Steel, and an immunity to Ground, all of which are attacking types seen on common pokemon in the metagame. The Fighting resistance and Ground immunity in particular are notable, as our premier defensive Fire type, Heatran, is weak to both of those types, meaning Moltres isn't completely outclassed by Heatran's Fire/Steel typing defensively. Another thing to note is that Moltres is a Flying type not weak to Ice, meaning it isn't automatically threatened out by Weavile and Mamoswine, in fact, its Fire STAB moves let it threaten them out instead of the other way around.
Stats:
Moltres' stats are all around solid, nothing in particular stands out aside from the 125 base Special Attack, with everything else being below base 100 aside from its unused Attack stat. This doesn't mean that Moltres' bulk and speed are poor however, 90/90/85 bulk is still quite solid, it has more special bulk than Gliscor, as a matter of fact, and a base 90 Speed stat is still capable of outrunning a decent portion of the metagame even without maximum investment. Moltres can afford not to invest in its Special Attack due to it already being naturally high, letting it invest a lot into its bulk and speed, making it rather flexible defensively. That last point will be explored a bit more in-depth later, when we're looking at sets.
Abilities:
Anybody who has played BDSP OU before knows of the prominence of Flame Body Heatran, and as it turns out, Moltres has access to that very same ability. This of course lets Moltres be a great way of punishing contact moves such as U-Turn, Close Combat, and various other moves which Moltres' bulk lets it be capable of taking. Moltres' access to reliable recovery in Roost, something Heatran notably lacks, also helps in letting it take more hits over the course of the game, letting it potentially spread more Flame Body burns.
Pressure is another solid ability, albeit one that is mostly overlooked on anything not named Suicune. Being able to burn your opponent's PP twice as fast can be useful in certain situations, especially in regards to low PP moves such as Magma Storm, Close Combat, and even weaker Hydro Pumps in a pinch. This ability is overall less useful compared to Flame Body, but it can be the crux of some sets, as we will see later on.
Now that we've gone over Moltres' qualities, this begs the question:
What niche does Moltres fulfill?
This is a good question to ask, to be fair. After all, a mon can have a bunch of solid qualities on paper, but if it can't fill out an effective niche in the metagame, there won't be much reason to use it.
In my testing, I have come to the conclusion that Moltres' main niche in BDSP OU is that of an alternative to Gliscor on certain stall teams, to be more precise, Moltres acts as a sort of in-between of Gliscor and Heatran. The primary reason to use Moltres instead of Gliscor is its better matchup spread into top tier mons such as Scizor, Clefable, Weavile, and Grass types such as Tangrowth due in part to its Fire typing, both offensively and defensively, as well as its ability to effectively spread burns with Flame Body and Will-O-Wisp. I'll list below the mons in the meta that Moltres can counter and check, with the current VR being the reference for this list.
(No Stone Edge/Thunder Punch) (No Knock Off, maybe even with Knock Off) (Doesn't like Sleep Powder but that's about it) (No Stone Edge) (No Stone Edge) (Only here because Taunt can be annoying as hell, otherwise you're fine) (You only switch into Play Rough but that's the same as Heatran really) (Only here because Spore and Rock Tomb on the switch really mess you up) (At best you speed tie, and Sleep Powder can suck) (Scarf, no Thunder Punch)Everything else we'll consider "Doesn't like switching in to Moltres but still threatens/beats it" or simply "Not worth mentioning (Most of C rank).
That list consists of quite a few mons, and a good portion of whom are strong in the current metagame, which shows that Moltres does indeed have a good defensive profile for the metagame. You do have to go a bit out of your way to support Moltres in the builder and in battle, but it can be well worth it in my experiences.
Moltres sets
Physically Defensive
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 140 Def / 120 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- Roar
Perhaps the most basic set listed here, but I also find it to be the most effective out of the ones listed. The set is simple, a physically defensive spread with Will-O-Wisp and Flame Body in order to spread burns as much as possible. Roar is used on the set to phaze out any counters trying to switch in to Moltres while hazards are up, and hopefully drag in something that Moltres threatens. Roar is also useful in order to deal with Clefable, as this lets you prevent it from receiving any Wishes it has set up, while also preventing it from setting up with Calm Mind or Cosmic Power. I find that Moltres appreciates a healthy dose of Speed investment in order to outrun threats that could otherwise get the jump on it, such as Breloom, Heracross, and Magnezone. I listed those three in particular because they can be annoying for stall teams to face, and while Moltres isn't a perfect answer to them, it can provide the team with a solid check to them while still being generally useful elsewhere.
Defog
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 80 SpD / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- Defog
This next set trades the utility of Flame Body burns and the phazing capabilities of Roar for a more support oriented build with Defog and Pressure as its ability. Since Moltres actually has a surprisingly good matchup into a decent amount of hazard setters, as well as Pressure depleting hazard PP twice as fast, this set isn't as reliant on team support in order to deal with Stealth Rock. This set prefers Special Defense investment to Physical Defense, as many common hazard setters are either Special or Mixed attackers, Will-O-Wisp is useful here in order to shore up your physical bulk, alongside the obvious benefits of chip damage. Though it isn't necessary to go all in on SpDef EVs, you'll need a minimum of 56 in order to take two Draco Meteors from Life Orb Garchomp from full (252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Moltres: 323-382 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- not a KO). Below I'll list off the hazard setters in the metagame, and how Defog Moltres fares against them, using the Role Compendium as a reference.
: Poor MU, it will either taunt you and/or boom-kill itself before you can defog away its hazards.: Neutral MU, the most it can do to you is Thunder Wave and fish for paralysis while clicking Seismic Toss, which can be dealt with via cleric support, you don't threaten it much in return though.: Good MU, same situation as Blissey, but Celebi is less likely to carry Thunder Wave, and you threaten it with Flamethrower.: Good MU, unless your opponent chooses not to run Wish+Protect as recovery, it is literally incapable of harming you, Protect can be annoying when it comes to blocking Defog but that's about it.: Good MU, most it can do to you is Knock Off, and hates Will-O-Wisp with a passion, EQ on a Roost can be dangerous however.: Neutral MU, Moltres can soft-counter the mixed hazard setter set through bulk, Roost, and Pressure, but SD/dual STABs/Stealth Rock can be more of a threat to Moltres since it can't reliably switch in to this set, acting more as a check. Either way Moltres can take any non-Stone Edge hit and burn Garchomp with Will-O-Wisp.: Neutral MU, only saying this because it depends on two things: Does the Gliscor have Knock Off (i.e. can it deal consistent damage) and is Moltres faster than Gliscor (can it EQ after your Roost). If the answer to this first question is no, then the second likely does not apply, and the MU is Good.: Neutral MU, very annoying MU for Heatran, as Pressure burns through Magma Storm PP like nothing. However, this MU is also very annoying for Moltres, because Taunt can shut down multiple Defog attempts. Oh and if it's Flash Fire then you do literally nothing back rip.: Good MU, Stealth Rocks sets are incapable of fitting in an attack capable of truly harming Moltres, at most it can maybe run Taunt on these sets.: Good MU, what applies to Celebi applies here too.: Neutral MU, it's a Mew, you think I can give a definitive answer on this? : Good MU, Skarmory is melted by Flamethrower, and is easily out sped, so you can hit it with a Will-O-Wisp in order to break Sturdy on HO teams and be able to Defog before it can Taunt you.: Poor MU, get hit with Rock STAB lmao.: Poor MU, Scald/Hydro Pump hurts too much and Moltres is incapable of threatening Empoleon enough to prevent it from setting hazards.: Good MU, funnily enough, the standard hazard setter set doesn't carry Stone Edge, opting instead for Crunch/Ice Beam/Flamethrower. Crunch does decent damage but is nowhere near threatening enough to stop Moltres from clicking Defog in Tyranitar's face, that being said, scouting for Stone Edge beforehand is recommended. If it does end up carrying Stone Edge, consider the MU Poor.: Good MU, Sleep Powder can be annoying for Moltres but it is also immune to Spikes/Toxic Spikes and can threaten Roserade with STAB Flamethrower.From what we can see on the list above, Moltres has positive matchup spreads versus a decent portion of the hazard setters in the metagame. While there is some variation in some of the matchups, generally you can expect Moltres to have either a good or neutral MU into the opposing hazard setter. It should be noted though that the two most common hazard setters in the tier, Heatran and Garchomp, are only neutral matchups, so it may not be wise to rely solely on Moltres in order to deal with these two, but more on that later.
Once again, Pressure on this set really helps in winning the hazard game, as not only do you burn through the opponent's hazard PP, but their Defog PP as well, preventing them from removing your hazards much quicker.
Offensive
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Hurricane
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
This was actually the very first set I tried out when I first started looking into Moltres. The main allure was STAB Hurricane, as this gives Moltres the strongest Special Flying STAB move outside of Ubers. STAB Flamethrower compliments Hurricane quite nicely, as it beat down the Steel types which resist Hurricane, and Hurricane hit Fire resists for solid damage. Roost gave the set longevity and Will-O-Wisp gave Moltres some utility in punishing would be safe switch-ins with burns. I eventually started looking away from this set after realizing that relying on a 70% accurate move in order to threaten Fire resists kind of sucked, especially against strong breakers like Starmie, Crawdaunt, Latias, and Garchomp. This set can probably be used to some success, but it's definitely less viable than defensive sets imo.
Specs Breaker
Moltres @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Hurricane
- Overheat
- U-turn
Only putting this here because I know a certain someone will bug me to no end if I don't. Never used Specs Moltres myself, and I don't see much reason to, because despite its high damage output, your complete lack of recovery as well as heavy reliance on 70% accurate Hurricanes to hurt Fire resists means that the set is too high risk to be truly worth it. This wouldn't be so bad if you didn't also have to play the hazard game non-stop so your breaker doesn't lose half its health upon switching in, only to miss a Hurricane and be forced out.
SubPressure
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Roar
Okay, back to my usual theorymonning. I haven't actually tested out this set yet, though I have been trying to build a team with it recently, in an attempt to see if Moltres can function well outside of stall as well. The idea would be to pair this set with Toxic Spikes and use Moltres as a means of abusing them, hiding behind a Substitute and Pressure stalling or phazing the opponent around, generally just being a nuisance to deal with. This helps since Moltres threatens the Steel types immune to Toxic Spikes, and the Poison Types either lack recovery (Nidoking, most Roserade) or are weak to Moltres' Flamethrower (Roserade in general lol).
Good Teammates
No Pokemon is a monolith, and Moltres is no exception. Having solid teammates will ensure that Moltres is supported to the best of its abilities, and so it can do the same for its partners in battle.
Starmie
Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Recover
Starmie, specifically bulky Rapid Spin Starmie, is an amazing Moltres partner. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's mandatory to run if you want to use Moltres to some degree of success. Being the best and most consistent hazard remover in the tier, it's an amazing form of support for a mon who detests Stealth Rock as much as Moltres does. It has positive matchups into popular hazard setters such as Heatran and Garchomp, which although Defog Moltres can handle, it would not be advised to rely solely on Moltres to remove hazards vs those two. It can also act as a decent pivot into bulky Water types such as Milotic, the Slowtwins, and even opposing Starmie. The relationship isn't one-sided, however, as Moltres threatens the Grass types which Starmie hates to face so much, Roserade and Celebi in particular, as they are hazard setters who threaten Starmie. Moltres being able to check threats such as Weavile and Magnezone is also something Starmie appreciates.
Bulky Grass Types
Multiple Grass types can work for this role, such as Tangrowth, Shaymin, and Celebi. The main point is having some sort of bulky grass type covers the matchup versus Water types and having somewhat of an Electric Resistance. This also ends up forming a Fire-Water-Grass core between Moltres, Starmie, and the Grass type of choice, which is neat.
Tangrowth
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
Perhaps the best bulky Grass type option to pair alongside Moltres, Tangrowth is a staple on balance and stall teams because of its immense physical bulk, utility in Knock Off and Sleep Powder, the sheer absurdity of Regenerator, and because its like one of three things that can consistently switch into Crawdaunt. I don't think there's too much to say that isn't already known when it comes to Tangrowth, so I'll leave it there.
Shaymin
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Leech Seed
- Rest
- Air Slash/Aromatherapy
Personally, I'm not a fan of Shaymin in OU, but it can be used as an alternative to Tangrowth if you're feeling that way. It does worse into Choice Band Crawdaunt, but does better into the mixed Life Orb variant, so that's something to keep in mind. Seed Flare is also really good into Water types, Leech Seed healing is always useful, and Aromatherapy can be good as a cleric option. What sucks is that Shaymin lacks any recovery aside from Rest and the rather underwhelming Synthesis, alongside not being able to carry Leftovers in order to deal with Crawdaunt better.
Celebi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- U-turn
- Healing Wish
Honestly I think Celebi works best if you're deciding to run the offensive Moltres set, because I can't really see a way for it to fit on the bulkier stall teams the defensive sets fit best on. Good answer to Water types, both offensive and defensive, and can lure in the Steel types which Moltres does so well against.
It's possible Roserade can be a decent option on some balance teams, but as I've said before, I have yet to try out Moltres on those sorts of teams, so I won't comment on it much here.
Clefable
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Calm Mind
If there's one thing Clefable hates, it's Steel types. Moltres' ability to threaten these Steel types, namely Scizor, Lucario, Magnezone, and to a lesser extent, Heatran, makes it a nice partner for Clefable. Its ability to punish the contact moves of the aforementioned Scizor and Lucario with burns also means that Clefable becomes more comfortable staying in on these big threats. This can ultimately let Clefable set up for an endgame Calm Mind sweep, which can be difficult to stop once a stall team has outlasted and worn down the opposing team enough. Clefable, in turn, benefits Moltres by being able to check and counter set up sweeper like Belly Drum Azumarill, Dragon Dance Dragonite, Calm Mind Latias, and many others. Not only that, but Clefable's Wish support can help Moltres in a pinch if it needs to heal up but is struggling to find a good opportunity to click Roost.
Skarmory
Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog/Brave Bird
- Roost
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
Moltres' appreciation of Starmie's spinning capabilities means that spike stacking becomes a more effective option on the stall teams which Moltres finds itself on. Once again, Moltres can check the Magnezone which Skarmory oh so hates, while Skarmory in turn can act as a generally sturdier switch in to the likes of Mamoswine, Weavile, Staraptor, and Tyranitar. It can also act as a secondary Defogger if so desired, which can help take the pressure off of Starmie for removing hazards, which is something Moltres always appreciates.
Replays
Now it would be rather silly to make such a long post about how a mon has worth in the meta without showing off any actual proof of its successes. So this section will consist of various replays, whether they be from friendlies, room tours on Showdown, or the ongoing Summer Seasonal, and analyzing Moltres' impact in each of the replays. Some of these replays are not of the highest quality, I will admit that now, however I still believe they showcase Moltres' capabilities well enough that they will suffice for this post. This will consist of a lot of replays, so I'll put them in a spoiler tab like the previous lists.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1842268304-w8ym2u2jl9i2ef4lejt1thnfjwuk6w2pw
From a friendly
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1840936915-jdp9g5d2t71s7pan8y400elosplfpt6pw
From a friendly
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1842408102
From a friendly
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1918589280
From a room tournament
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1890480850-k6zi3idiv8jrmnlz9ymzx465xah3qvxpw
From RoA Spotlight tournament
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1930382435-b8k9ikflur5kflld9z5a8yzezvtedtxpw
From Summer Seasonal Round 2 Winners bracket
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1930387712-4f5fnby26xdasdgq3hnx9smmk4qoxripw
From Summer Seasonal Round 2 Winners bracket
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1934329415-d28w1bv9y1o2kx2o1n5jsorjj72w053pw
From Summer Seasonal Round 3 Winners bracket
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1934334763-uwb4gchuy0uu0efbx9z3g1zd11v7wripw
From Summer Seasonal Round 3 Winners bracket
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1946261130-dmurn5wbfxrgf9uxbjx1mwn8nufzewupw
From Summer Seasonal Round 6 Winners Bracket
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1946266728-etlpvx6jgdm4u8e5gs5m9rg598ehp9apw
From Summer Seasonal Round 6 Winners Bracket
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-722822
From Summer Seasonal Round 8 Winners Bracket Finals
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1964462654-a4b0vkl30fcerc5928s02qgfi96vf8ipw
From Summer Seasonal Round 8 Winners Bracket Finals
From a friendly
In this replay...
- Moltres burns Slowking with Will-O-Wisp, nullifying its Leftovers recovery
- Moltres switches in to +2 Scizor with hazards up, takes the hit, and burns Scizor with Flame Body, healing up before Scizor U-turns out
- Moltres burns Garchomp with Flame Body, rendering Will-O-Wisp pointless lmao
- Moltres burns Azumarill with Will-O-Wisp on the switch, while still having the bulk to take a hit from Staraptor if it decided to stay in and attack
- Moltres switches in to Gliscor with hazards up as it clicks Swords Dance, takes the +2 Facade, and phazes it out
- All of the above sets up for the CM Clefable endgame
From a friendly
In this replay...
- I make my friend weep by bringing stall in a friendly
- Moltres switches in to Scizor multiple times, eventually getting a Flame Body burn
- Moltres switches in to Heatran on Magma Storm and gets solid damage on it with Flamethrower
- Moltres phazes out the incoming Latias, bringing back in the Heatran which it can win against 1v1
- Moltres stays in vs defensive Rotom-Wash, burns it with Will-O-Wisp to deny Leftovers recovery, and takes the Volt Switch nicely
- Ignore the scuffed Heatran set
- Moltres threatens out the +2 Scizor
From a friendly
In this replay...
- Moltres switches in to Weavile Assurance (no hazards up) and threatens it out
- Moltres switches in to Scizor U-turn and punishes it with a Flame Body burn
- Moltres switches out of Garchomp after a predicted Stone Edge
- Scizor being burned, alongside the paralyzed Heatran, make a CM Clefable endgame possible
From a room tournament
In this replay...
- Moltres comes in against Lucario as it Swords Dances and threatens it out
- I misplay hard against a mixed Crawdaunt and Moltres takes big damage from Knock Off
- Some value is still able to be extracted from Moltres as it gets a sacrificial Flame Body burn against the +2 Lucario
- The burn on Lucario lets Clefable and Skarmory withstand Lucario's assault
From RoA Spotlight tournament
In this replay...
- Moltres phazes out a +2 Gliscor after taking a boosted Facade
- Switches in to Scizor U-turn multiple times and punished it with a Flame Body burn
- KO's Scizor with Flamethrower
From Summer Seasonal Round 2 Winners bracket
In this replay...
- You would think I'm actively trying to throw around turns 15-22
- Moltres switches in to a Weavile Ice Punch
- Switches in to an offensive Scizor with hazards up as it clicks Swords Dance and proceeds to threaten it out
- Phazes out the Blissey which cannot threaten Moltres
- Takes another Ice Punch from Weavile and KO's it with Flamethrower
From Summer Seasonal Round 2 Winners bracket
In this replay...
- Moltres defogs away Blissey's hazards with ease thanks to Defog and Pressure
- I swap out like an idiot with Moltres while hazards go up
- Unfortunate paralysis on Starmie makes spinning away hazards impossible
- Moltres switches in to Breloom with hazards up, takes the Bullet Seed, and Defogs away hazards as Breloom is threatened out
- Moltres chip heals back to roughly 50% through Leftovers recovery while hazards are not up
- 0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 270-318 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO Moltres manages to miss this roll on Weavile after taking a Throat Chop
- Moltres takes a +2 Mach Punch from Breloom and KO's it with Flamethrower
- Moltres successfully stalls Blissey of all its hazard PP
- Moltres KO's Scizor with Flamethrower to end the game
From Summer Seasonal Round 3 Winners bracket
In this replay...
- Moltres fucking dies because I don't scout for Stone Edge on Infernape at lead
From Summer Seasonal Round 3 Winners bracket
In this replay...
- Moltres switches in on Clefable as it clicks Wish, phazes out the incoming Rotom-Wash who would have received the Wish, revealing the opponent's intentions
- Forces Clefable to low health with Flamethrower and the threat of Roar, as Flamethrower isn't something anything on the team aside from Latias would want to switch into at this point
- Switches in to a choice locked Earthquake from Mamoswine and threatens the Tangrowth coming in on a double
- Tangrowth switches into CB Icicle Crash way more than you would expect
- Moltres is able to out speed and KO Mamoswine late game with Flamethrower
- Phazes out the Latias with hazards up and a bit of paralysis luck
- OHKO's Tangrowth with Flamethrower
From Summer Seasonal Round 6 Winners Bracket
In this replay...
- Moltres switches in on a Garchomp Fire Blast, takes the follow-up Draco Meteor, and burns it with Will-O-Wisp, neutralizing it as a threat
- Switches easily into Weavile after it had its Choice Band knocked off and threatens it out
- Gets solid chip damage on Nidoking with Flamethrower and hazards
- Switches in to Heatran, gets a bit of chip damage with Flamethrower, and phazes it out with Roar
From Summer Seasonal Round 6 Winners Bracket
In this replay...
- Moltres completely walls Gliscor as it doesn't have Knock off
- Moltres successfully stalls all of Gliscor's hazard PP
- Moltres takes multiple Volt Switches from offensive Rotom-Wash over the course of the game and heals off the damage with Roost
- Due to some poor prior play, Moltres has to stay in vs Choice Band Tyranitar and burn it with a Will-O-Wisp, this works out better than expected though as Stone Edge ends up missing
- Moltres takes a Future Sight which was set up prior and heals off the damage the following turn
- Moltres takes a Hydro Pump from offensive Rotom-Wash and heals off the damage with Roost
From Summer Seasonal Round 8 Winners Bracket Finals
In this replay...
- Moltres threatens out a sleeping Scizor, and threatens a Flamethrower or Will-O-Wisp against a team with only one decent switch in to those moves this early on (Bulky Latias)
- Moltres burns the Latias with Will-O-Wisp the second time it comes in on and threatens out Scizor, nullifying its Leftovers recovery
- Moltres switches out against a Magnezone, while it was able to pick up a KO with Flamethrower I feared missing the roll and losing Moltres early on unnecessarily 0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 254-302 (90.3 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
- While I can't be sure, I think this caused my opponent to believe Moltres was slower than Magnezone, despite this not being the case
- Tangrowth gets some chip on Magnezone with Giga Drain, putting it into Flamethrower range
- Moltres KO's Magnezone with Flamethrower, which was by far the biggest threat to my team
From Summer Seasonal Round 8 Winners Bracket Finals
In this replay...
- I play this game horribly and like an absolute idiot
- Moltres threatens Scizor out and invites in Latias, letting Blissey come in and get the opportunity to set hazards
- Moltres phazes out Latias with hazards up, bringing in the Garchomp which Moltres checks easily
- Moltres burns Latias with Will-O-Wisp, nullifying its Leftovers recovery
- This is the only game in Summer Seasonal where I brought Moltres and lost
The Downsides
Of course, there are always downsides. After all, if there weren't any, Moltres would have been an OU staple this whole time. These factors are why Moltres can only function on certain teams and, while good, is on the niche end of the viabilty spectrum in my opinion.
Stealth Rock
I've been trying to avoid this term as much as possible to see if it was possible to write a whole post about Moltres without saying it, but I fear that I can't shy away from it no longer. Stealth Rocks are by far the biggest limiting factor for Moltres, and are a massive reason why Moltres' viability has never really been discussed in OU. Not only do you need to prepare solid hazard removal in the builder, but you also need to play in order to keep the sneaky pebbles off your side of the field as much as possible, which can be exploited. This is why I believe stall is the best playstyle for Moltres to fit on, since not only can you fit bulky Starmie, but usually you can afford to fit a second hazard remover if needed, which gives Moltres more opportunities to come in without being mauled to death by Rocks.
Stall kinda sucks
It's a known fact among the devoted BDSP OU player base that stall is the weakest playstyle in the tier, and that is a fact that Moltres cannot hide from. While I don't believe that ruins Moltres' viability, it is a hard blow when your best play style is rarely seen and kinda stinks. From threats ranging from Crawdaunt, Magnezone, Nasty Plot Togekiss, Heracross, offensive Heatran, and many more, running stall means you run the risk of encountering a match up where you're playing on the back foot most of the game. This ultimately means that running a Moltres team is inherently risky due to the nature of the teams it fits best on.
Water types
Water types, both offensive and bulky, are plentiful in this tier, and Moltres struggles heavily against them. While it can burn them with Will-O-Wisp to nullify Leftovers recovery and cripple their attacks, it can't do much beyond that. This means that its utility vs these mons is often limited to burning them once at most, and having to fall back on its teammates in order to deal with them. Once again, having to rely on teammates isn't a death sentence for Moltres' viability, but it does limit its usefulness in certain matchups.
Conclusion
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Cores, Sets, and Other Ideas I Have:
Just because I've been eliminated from LCQ and am not qualifying for the playoffs doesn't mean I can't conceptualize ideas for BDSP teams! I'll throw some ideas for cores or sets that you can build around and would like to hear your thoughts on these ideas!
Basically, this Breloom takes advantages of the fact that many teams lacking Tangrowth or Shaymin have to absorb sleep with Spore (usually with Scizor), before switching into their Breloom check (like Latias). However, after Breloom sleeps the first switch-in, you unleash Stun Spore to paralyze the Breloom switch. This can open up many avenues for both Breloom and Breloom's teammates. Paralyzing a Starmie immediately makes it vulnerable to Breloom itself, while paralyzing a Gliscor makes it so that it can't activate Toxic Orb, significantly hindering its longevity. Something like Latias or Dragonite resists both of Breloom's STABs, but teammates like Infernape that also get checked by these two appreciate them getting paralyzed.
Offensive Mew will forever be an underrated threat in BDSP OU. Its combination of Fire- and Ice-type coverage lets it hit a lot of Pokemon really hard. One of the best switches to Mew is specially defensive Heatran, who sometimes likes to invest in enough Speed to outrun offensive SD Scizor and cut its assault short. However, Thunder Wave will punish a Heatran switch with paralysis that makes it easier for Mew's teammates to beat Heatran. Mew's Modest nature and Expert Belt are to increase the amount of damage that it can dish out, and Roost lets it stick around for a while (although if you want to run a third coverage move like Energy Ball or Thunderbolt for Water-types, that is also feasible).
This combination was actually inspired by TyCarter, when he tested a team that was Thunder Wave Togekiss paralyzing my bulky Heatran for his offensive Scizor to take advantage of. I developed this core from that idea since I thought it was neat, while also giving me an excuse to try out offensive Mew.
I actually took this from an ORAS OU team, and I thought that it might be a better direction to push Gliscor instead of the faster utility sets that are the most common variants currently. I find that those sets don't quite have the bulk to take attacks from Garchomp and Heatran that you want it to. Additionally, I figured that the passive stall teams would really dislike Taunt Gliscor, which can sit on and PP stall Unaware Clefable as it Swords Dances to +6 to beat down the rest of the team with Facade. Of course, the immense Special Defense investment it now has lets it take various weak special attacks from defensive Heatran, Clefable, and weak Scalds from bulky Water-types. Pairing it with a Water-type that takes on offensive Heatran and Starmie is an intuitive pairing for this Gliscor (maybe a Milotic that does well against offensive teams).
If Keldeo has taught me anything, it's that even offensive Pokemon can make good use of Scald to deal damage. Because Suicune doesn't really have better move options, Scald fills the last spot on this offensive set. It's helpful since Hydro Pump is unreliable as a sole STAB move, although you will have trouble dealing with defensive Water-types like Milotic and Rotom-Wash. However, Suicune can take a hit for offensive teams, and that can often be enough for these teams to strike back with offense, especially with Suicune's STAB Hydro Pump and the complementary Ice Beam. I think that this Suicune can pair with other Water-types like Starmie and offensive Rotom-Wash that can overwhelm many of their shared checks, although you will need a plan for Blissey (which is why Vincune is the most popular Suicune set as of now).
There's also no real reason why Choice Specs Suicune can't work, although you'll need to really think about its last move - my instinct is Sleep Talk, but Suicune is a really risky sleep absorber since the best user of the move is Breloom. Apart from that, Suicune's best special moves are Extrasensory and Hyper Beam. Maybe you just put Sleep Talk on there anyway and just never click it.
Just because I've been eliminated from LCQ and am not qualifying for the playoffs doesn't mean I can't conceptualize ideas for BDSP teams! I'll throw some ideas for cores or sets that you can build around and would like to hear your thoughts on these ideas!
Basically, this Breloom takes advantages of the fact that many teams lacking Tangrowth or Shaymin have to absorb sleep with Spore (usually with Scizor), before switching into their Breloom check (like Latias). However, after Breloom sleeps the first switch-in, you unleash Stun Spore to paralyze the Breloom switch. This can open up many avenues for both Breloom and Breloom's teammates. Paralyzing a Starmie immediately makes it vulnerable to Breloom itself, while paralyzing a Gliscor makes it so that it can't activate Toxic Orb, significantly hindering its longevity. Something like Latias or Dragonite resists both of Breloom's STABs, but teammates like Infernape that also get checked by these two appreciate them getting paralyzed.
Mew @ Expert Belt
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Brick Break
- Quick Attack
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Brick Break
- Quick Attack
Offensive Mew will forever be an underrated threat in BDSP OU. Its combination of Fire- and Ice-type coverage lets it hit a lot of Pokemon really hard. One of the best switches to Mew is specially defensive Heatran, who sometimes likes to invest in enough Speed to outrun offensive SD Scizor and cut its assault short. However, Thunder Wave will punish a Heatran switch with paralysis that makes it easier for Mew's teammates to beat Heatran. Mew's Modest nature and Expert Belt are to increase the amount of damage that it can dish out, and Roost lets it stick around for a while (although if you want to run a third coverage move like Energy Ball or Thunderbolt for Water-types, that is also feasible).
This combination was actually inspired by TyCarter, when he tested a team that was Thunder Wave Togekiss paralyzing my bulky Heatran for his offensive Scizor to take advantage of. I developed this core from that idea since I thought it was neat, while also giving me an excuse to try out offensive Mew.
I actually took this from an ORAS OU team, and I thought that it might be a better direction to push Gliscor instead of the faster utility sets that are the most common variants currently. I find that those sets don't quite have the bulk to take attacks from Garchomp and Heatran that you want it to. Additionally, I figured that the passive stall teams would really dislike Taunt Gliscor, which can sit on and PP stall Unaware Clefable as it Swords Dances to +6 to beat down the rest of the team with Facade. Of course, the immense Special Defense investment it now has lets it take various weak special attacks from defensive Heatran, Clefable, and weak Scalds from bulky Water-types. Pairing it with a Water-type that takes on offensive Heatran and Starmie is an intuitive pairing for this Gliscor (maybe a Milotic that does well against offensive teams).
If Keldeo has taught me anything, it's that even offensive Pokemon can make good use of Scald to deal damage. Because Suicune doesn't really have better move options, Scald fills the last spot on this offensive set. It's helpful since Hydro Pump is unreliable as a sole STAB move, although you will have trouble dealing with defensive Water-types like Milotic and Rotom-Wash. However, Suicune can take a hit for offensive teams, and that can often be enough for these teams to strike back with offense, especially with Suicune's STAB Hydro Pump and the complementary Ice Beam. I think that this Suicune can pair with other Water-types like Starmie and offensive Rotom-Wash that can overwhelm many of their shared checks, although you will need a plan for Blissey (which is why Vincune is the most popular Suicune set as of now).
There's also no real reason why Choice Specs Suicune can't work, although you'll need to really think about its last move - my instinct is Sleep Talk, but Suicune is a really risky sleep absorber since the best user of the move is Breloom. Apart from that, Suicune's best special moves are Extrasensory and Hyper Beam. Maybe you just put Sleep Talk on there anyway and just never click it.
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What are people's opinions on Staraptor recently? I ask because I feel like it's a mon that you don't often hear brought up in discussions and when it does it's often just a quick remark or two. Personally I've always found Staraptor to be a rather weird mon, it's something you don't really think about in the teambuilder, both as a member of your team and as an opposing threat, but it always has the potential to cause some major damage when it does show up both due to sheer strength and because most of the defensive metagame currently has a rather poor time switching into its attacks.
Regarding the Choice Scarf set, which is what most people's "go-to" Staraptor set is, it has definitely fallen off quite a bit in my eyes recently. While it is devastatingly powerful for a scarfer, it's often worn down way too quickly by hazards and recoil damage for it to make any meaningful impact most of the time I find. Most teams I feel are able to "cheat" their matchup versus Scarf Staraptor for this reason, which really hampers what I believe Scarf Staraptor is best at; trading 1 for 1 against offense and hopefully more (maybe I've got the wrong idea on raptor there but idk). Scarf can still work on the right team and in the right matchup but overall it has taken a hit I find.
Sky Render (Staraptor) @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Double-Edge/Facade
- Close Combat
- Roost
I've been using this set recently and I find that it's probably the best Staraptor set in the metagame right now. Xilefi was the one who first told me of this set, though I don't know where he got it from so yea. You lose the speed of Choice Scarf but the power boost to Brave Bird from Sharp Beak let's you muscle past usual defensive answers to Staraptor while also just generally being harder to switch into than before. Roost helps alleviate Staraptor's longevity issues and can usually be used on something that's being forced out by Staraptor or on moves like Clefable's Protect. Not being bound by a choice lock is very helpful too since it lets you break past Flying resists more easily, especially since most people expect Scarf Staraptor when they see it on preview, so they'll be more willing to keep in their
/Defensive 
/
in on a Staraptor which just clicked Brave Bird into them. Lum Berry is maybe a possible item on this set instead of Sharp Beak if you don't want to risk being immediately crippled by Flame Body/Static, though the damage drop on Brave Bird means defensive checks like Slowbro and Physdef Gliscor will once again give you trouble.Choice Band is the worst set in my opinion mostly due to the fact that the above set pretty much accomplishes the same goal of breaking past defensive cores while not immediately deleting itself whenever it clicks an attack into something bulky. If you absolutely need the sheer immediate damage of Band though, it could work.
I've been noticing that recently a lot of teams have been using
and/or as their Flying resists, which Staraptor loves because Close Combat and Double-Edge do serious damage to them and they both lack recovery outside of leftovers, making them easy to wear down over time. The decrease in popularity of Choice Scarf on Rotom-Wash also helps Staraptor since it doesn't have to rely on Choice Scarf itself as often in order to outspeed and threaten Rotom with Double-Edge. This in conjunction with the fact that usually solid defensive checks to Staraptor such as Slowbro, Physdef Gliscor, and Jirachi have declined in usage, while Grass types threatened by Staraptor like Tangrowth and Roserade increase in popularity, making it far easier for Staraptor to break through the defensive cores of many teams. Of course Staraptor's total lack of defensive utility makes it a hard mon to fit onto teams and to use to its fullest extent compared to other breakers, but I still find Staraptor to be a solid mon in the metagame, albeit one that can be overlooked at times.Apologies if this post is a bit of mess, it was mostly just me rambling about my thoughts on Staraptor in a rather unorganized way. Like I said at the beginning, I'm curious about what others think of Staraptor right now, so if you have anything you'd like to share I'd love to hear it!
I believe the Sharp Beak set originated from Lily around the time of the first BDSPPL. But wrt to Staraptor itself, base 100 speed is a weird speed tier for it mostly because it misses out on some threats it wants to beat without a scarf. Scarf is still a decent lead to start the game off to scout and it crucially outspeeds scarf tom. Regen cores are usually what makes Raptor difficult to fully utilize so yes roost can alleviate these issues. It's a bit of a give and take but adamant on non scarf sets means it's outspeed by something like Roserade which could sleep it. I think part of its decline has to do with some of its favorite targets to snipe like Zam having declined over time.
What are people's opinions on Staraptor recently? I ask because I feel like it's a mon that you don't often hear brought up in discussions and when it does it's often just a quick remark or two. Personally I've always found Staraptor to be a rather weird mon, it's something you don't really think about in the teambuilder, both as a member of your team and as an opposing threat, but it always has the potential to cause some major damage when it does show up both due to sheer strength and because most of the defensive metagame currently has a rather poor time switching into its attacks.
Regarding the Choice Scarf set, which is what most people's "go-to" Staraptor set is, it has definitely fallen off quite a bit in my eyes recently. While it is devastatingly powerful for a scarfer, it's often worn down way too quickly by hazards and recoil damage for it to make any meaningful impact most of the time I find. Most teams I feel are able to "cheat" their matchup versus Scarf Staraptor for this reason, which really hampers what I believe Scarf Staraptor is best at; trading 1 for 1 against offense and hopefully more (maybe I've got the wrong idea on raptor there but idk). Scarf can still work on the right team and in the right matchup but overall it has taken a hit I find.
Sky Render (Staraptor) @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Double-Edge/Facade
- Close Combat
- Roost
I've been using this set recently and I find that it's probably the best Staraptor set in the metagame right now. Xilefi was the one who first told me of this set, though I don't know where he got it from so yea. You lose the speed of Choice Scarf but the power boost to Brave Bird from Sharp Beak let's you muscle past usual defensive answers to Staraptor while also just generally being harder to switch into than before. Roost helps alleviate Staraptor's longevity issues and can usually be used on something that's being forced out by Staraptor or on moves like Clefable's Protect. Not being bound by a choice lock is very helpful too since it lets you break past Flying resists more easily, especially since most people expect Scarf Staraptor when they see it on preview, so they'll be more willing to keep in their
Choice Band is the worst set in my opinion mostly due to the fact that the above set pretty much accomplishes the same goal of breaking past defensive cores while not immediately deleting itself whenever it clicks an attack into something bulky. If you absolutely need the sheer immediate damage of Band though, it could work.
I've been noticing that recently a lot of teams have been using
Apologies if this post is a bit of mess, it was mostly just me rambling about my thoughts on Staraptor in a rather unorganized way. Like I said at the beginning, I'm curious about what others think of Staraptor right now, so if you have anything you'd like to share I'd love to hear it!
While
is more on the "niche" side but Flame Body Heatran being a regular staple of the metagame. You could run something like aroma support from Clef to alleviate these issues of being status'ed. You would probably want to pair it with another breaker such as offmie that could threaten regen cores.The other barrier Staraptor generally has to overcome in the builder are strong priority users in the metagame that can threaten it such as offensive
, , 
and even that all threaten a Revenge Kill given Raptor will almost always never be at full health. While my opinion on Staraptor has gradually declined over time, it's moreso a mon that requires a bit more help to adequately support, although I still like it as a scarfer since offmie doesn't run spin as frequently and it can get in a position to clean up in endgame.(Because I think the other scarfers have its own weird issues like Scarf Tom mostly just tricking and not possessing enough of a threat offensively unlike specs and Scarf Bi is mid if not downright bad because of how shit it is at making actual progress [a separate rant] and Scarf Chomp having undesirable moves to lock into sometimes)
TLDR: Staraptor is ok but kind of weird to build with as each of its sets have a major give or take that comes with it. But it still has traits that can make it worth using, just not something you slap on randomly and call it a day.
A Blissful BDSP Discussion
A TEDTalk on Blissey's state in BDSP
A TEDTalk on Blissey's state in BDSP
Hello fellow BDSPers, I am here to present to you a mon that I think is currently under the radar. I think that, given the recent developments in the metagame, it has been given more opportunities to become viable recently. That mon, of course, is the pink blob of pink blobs: Blissey.
Now, to better understand why this mon might be more prevalent in today's metagame, I think it is important to understand criticisms that Blissey has had recently.
The main criticism that this mon has received is what people have been saying about Blissey for generations: it is too passive. It's ability to create offensive pressure leaves a lot to be desired, and taking a simple toss is far from devastating, even for offensive mons. Blissey either walls a mon, or is ultimately decimated by its presence and is left with no choice to retreat and let something else likely receive a deadly blow. Blissey is, to say the least, exploitable amongst higher skill players, and even when its in, it's not a devastating threat to a team due to its putrid damage output.
However, what I would argue is that Bliss is actually still able to apply pressure onto opposing teams. Getting Bliss in safely can create a great reward due to the utility it can bring to teams, its ability to sponge hits, and its unique diverse movepool.
Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
Now, to those who have played the tier for a while, you will recognize this Blissey set very well. It is a rather standard blissey set, but this is more to show how it can provide utility to its teammates. The main moves I will be talking about are Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave.
Stealth Rock might not sound amazing at first, a lot of useful mons already get the sneaky pebbles such as: Heatran, Gliscor, and Garchomp. Aside from maybe Clef, these three are the most common rockers in the game, and for good reason. They give teams a great defensive presence (in Garchomp's case it also gives offensive pressure). However, they seem to falter at the sight of one remover in particular: Starmie. Starmie's rise in BDSP has been nothing short of rapid. BDSP went from a defog only metagame into one of slapping on Mie (especially with Rose teams) and spinning to keep hazards on the opponent's side of the field. With the lack of ghosts in the tier, Starmie is really hard to prevent spinning, and the three rockers of BDSP all but encourage Mie to come in and freely spin them away. It's an upwards hazards war that has become really important in recent BDSP. Even when Mie isn't spin, its offensive set often leads to these rockers being the first mons sent to the shadow realm.
Blissey, however, can absorb these hits and threaten to fire back with Thunder Wave. Yes, Mie will heal the Paralysis with the use of Natural Cure. However, forcing Starmie out will allow for rocks to go up. Blissey also has Natural Cure itself, and on more offensive teams, provides a scald switch in that those archetypes need (as well as a mon that can come in on the threatening Magnezone). On stall teams, Blissey can help out in the form of Aromatherapy, and prevent easy progress from Scald burns (just make sure your Gliscor isn't knocked off). Reminder that Starmie also is not in any way the most defensively decorated mon and can easily be pressured by other teammates offensively.
Thunder Wave doesn't help with just Mie, but also prevents the likes of Sciz U-turning and getting free momentum, it prevents Clef spamming CM as a wincon, it could be a deciding factor in winning the 1v1 vs Heatran that it hates to engage in otherwise, and punishes mons that try to set up in front of it such as NP Canadian Airlines (Fuck you igiveuponaname). Now, ground mons are of course, immune to TWave, so that would naturally mean Gliscor and Garchomp come into Blissey for completely free right?
Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled
Not necessarily.
While Blissey won't want to switch in into Garchomp, Ice Beam will ensure these mons will think twice before coming into Blissey. It's more than enough to prevent them from coming in. Gliscor becomes a PP war that Blissey wins, and one Ice Beam on Chomp will deal great damage that will cripple it for the rest of the game (Its no Heatran in that aspect after all). While it certainly shouldn't be relied on, Ice Beam fishing can also freeze, which could help get out of otherwise PP stall wars that Blissey could get into lategame.
Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Def / 92 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
If you're ever tired of mons getting ready to take advantage of Blissey, be sure to give this set a try. Flamethrower, along with 92 Speed EVs, allows it to lure in and effectively take out both Scizor and Garchomp.
+1 0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 240 SpD Scizor: 284-336 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 348-412 (97.4 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth RockThe best part is, it doesn't have to lure in these two mons. Want to punish Clef who thinks it can come in safely because of Unaware? Slap on Serene Grace Thunder and fire away. Want to punish Sub Mismag who thinks it can troll you because it has Sub? Go right ahead and slap on Shadow Ball and fire away a move that almost nothing in the tier actually resists. Blissey has the potential to provide unpredictability. While it isn't as unpredictable as the infamous Mew, its not as straightforward as many players make it out to be.
Does Blissey have its flaws? Of course, it does, it can still easily get overwhelmed by mons such as Crawdaunt, Lucario, and Heracross (the latter, admittedly, isn't as popular). As well as having the passive trait of being overwhelmed throughout the course of a game. However, Blissey can find a way through even the toughest of pinches with good positioning (and can establish a psychological effect on the opponent if a near dead Blissey is able to get back to even 50%). However, unlike a lot of passive mons in the tier, Blissey has the ability to establish these weaknesses into potential strengths thanks to its element of surprise.
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I'm postponing my post (read: essay) about Breloom to talk about a Pokemon that I find very difficult to prep against:
Starmie
Offensive Life Orb Starmie is an absolute menace that I find is nearly impossible to switch into. The sheer damage from Life Orb, Analytic, and its great coverage combine to create a Pokemon with very few switch-ins. No Pokemon faster than Starmie (Alakazam and Weavile most notably) want to switch into Starmie, nor do Scarfers since they will get pounded by those brutal attacks. Hydro Pump, after Life Orb, Analytic, and STAB, has an effective base power over 275, and combined with Starmie's solid Special Attack of 100, it puts numbers into even bulky neutral targets like Scizor. Ice Beam complements Hydro Pump, since it smacks Grass and Dragon types that resist Hydro Pump, like Roserade, Breloom, and Latias. Finally, Thunderbolt hits Waters that resist Hydro Pump and Ice Beam like opposing Starmie, Slowbro, and Milotic. This 3 move coverage is so good that its last move is very flexible. The lack of Ghost types in the tier means that it can support its team with Rapid Spin, but the most dangerous option is Recover, which takes away the ability for opposing teams to let it wear itself out with its own Life Orb.
Starmie's list of switch-ins is very sparse, basically limited to Gastrodon, Blissey, specially defensive Rotom-Wash, specially defensive Celebi, and specially defensive Mew. I looked through the teams in my builder (which consist of not only my own teams but also teams taken from other players) and found that the majority of the offensive teams (which comprise the best and most common team style in the metagame) get absolutely drowned by Starmie. The defensive and balanced teams tend to pack Blissey, which checks 90% of special attackers anyway, but I realized that the majority of teams had physically defensive Rotom-Wash so that it can more easily burn the physical attackers that it's checking. I then checked the samples and what I found was shocking:
Hyper Offense
Semi DragMag + DemonClef
DragSpam + SteelSpam
SD Garchomp + BD Azumarill
I'm not going to analyze the hyper offense teams because their gameplan doesn't revolve around being able to switch around opposing offense anyway.
Offense
Spikes Roserade + Assurance Weavile
The gameplan against Starmie revolves around Weavile, two Water resists that are each weak to Ice, and a bulky Starmie weak to Thunderbolt.
Mix Infernape Volturn
The Rotom-Wash here is physically defensive, so it gets pounded by Thunderbolts while only having Leftovers and Protect for recovery. Apart from that, the only check to Starmie here is Weavile.
Nidoking + Beat Up Weavile
Same story as before, the Rotom-Wash is Choice Scarf so it really doesn't switch into Starmie, but at least the team has two revenge killers instead of only one.
Bulky Offense
LO Recover Starmie + Togekiss
This team resorts to... offensive Starmie speed ties and Scarf Garchomp as the true revenge killer. Yikes.
Dragon Spam BO
This team's only specially defensive Pokemon is Heatran, with 0 revenge killers and a physically defensive Rotom. I think this may be the most Starmie-weak team among the samples.
LO Recover Starmie + Demon Clefable
Again, no switch-ins and Weavile is the only revenge killer.
Balance
Toxic Spikes Roserade + VinCune
Roserade and Suicune still get stung bad by Ice Beam and Thunderbolt, so they have to be in pristine shape in order to withstand its attacks. Suicune does nothing back, but Roserade could maybe Giga Drain in return, fine. Weavile is still the only revenge killer.
Milotic + Mix Mamoswine
Milotic, like Suicune, can take Thunderbolt decently well but it does no damage in return so Starmie can just recover off the damage. Apart from that, not a single revenge killer in sight.
Blissey + Tangrowth Balance
Finally, an actual switch-in to Starmie, although that switch-in is kind of a cop-out when you consider that Blissey counters nearly every special attacker. Just put a Blissey on every team?
Defensive Infernape Balance
The only revenge killers here are Weavile and Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet.
Stall
Poliwrath+Salamence Stall
This team has a Sticky Hold Gastrodon, instead of a Storm Drain Gastrodon. I guess it still is 3HKOed by Starmie and 2HKOes it in return with Earth Power and Starmie's Life Orb. The Mew is physically defensive so it doesn't take Hydro Pump very well.
Slowking + Quagsire Stall
This team has a Blissey, so it checks out.
As we can see, the sample teams stack several Pokemon that absolutely get destroyed by Starmie (Heatran, Garchomp, Scizor, Gliscor, Infernape, etc.) and usually only pack a revenge killer or two to handle it (if at all). That revenge killer is usually Weavile, which is itself a controversial threat. If Weavile is banned from the tier (an outcome I would agree with since it is also a fast and powerful Pokemon with limited counterplay), then the majority of teams lose a popular and splashable offensive check to Starmie. Thus, if Weavile gets banned from the tier, Starmie will only blast a wider variety of teams. Therefore, if Weavile does get banned, I would also advocate for Starmie to get removed from the tier.
In conclusion, you can take one of many things from this post:
Starmie Offensive Life Orb Starmie is an absolute menace that I find is nearly impossible to switch into. The sheer damage from Life Orb, Analytic, and its great coverage combine to create a Pokemon with very few switch-ins. No Pokemon faster than Starmie (Alakazam and Weavile most notably) want to switch into Starmie, nor do Scarfers since they will get pounded by those brutal attacks. Hydro Pump, after Life Orb, Analytic, and STAB, has an effective base power over 275, and combined with Starmie's solid Special Attack of 100, it puts numbers into even bulky neutral targets like Scizor. Ice Beam complements Hydro Pump, since it smacks Grass and Dragon types that resist Hydro Pump, like Roserade, Breloom, and Latias. Finally, Thunderbolt hits Waters that resist Hydro Pump and Ice Beam like opposing Starmie, Slowbro, and Milotic. This 3 move coverage is so good that its last move is very flexible. The lack of Ghost types in the tier means that it can support its team with Rapid Spin, but the most dangerous option is Recover, which takes away the ability for opposing teams to let it wear itself out with its own Life Orb.
Starmie's list of switch-ins is very sparse, basically limited to Gastrodon, Blissey, specially defensive Rotom-Wash, specially defensive Celebi, and specially defensive Mew. I looked through the teams in my builder (which consist of not only my own teams but also teams taken from other players) and found that the majority of the offensive teams (which comprise the best and most common team style in the metagame) get absolutely drowned by Starmie. The defensive and balanced teams tend to pack Blissey, which checks 90% of special attackers anyway, but I realized that the majority of teams had physically defensive Rotom-Wash so that it can more easily burn the physical attackers that it's checking. I then checked the samples and what I found was shocking:
Hyper Offense
Semi DragMag + DemonClef DragSpam + SteelSpam SD Garchomp + BD Azumarill
Offense
Spikes Roserade + Assurance Weavile
Mix Infernape Volturn
Nidoking + Beat Up Weavile
Bulky Offense
LO Recover Starmie + Togekiss
Dragon Spam BO
LO Recover Starmie + Demon Clefable
Balance
Toxic Spikes Roserade + VinCune
Milotic + Mix Mamoswine
Blissey + Tangrowth Balance
Defensive Infernape Balance
Stall
Poliwrath+Salamence Stall
Slowking + Quagsire Stall
As we can see, the sample teams stack several Pokemon that absolutely get destroyed by Starmie (Heatran, Garchomp, Scizor, Gliscor, Infernape, etc.) and usually only pack a revenge killer or two to handle it (if at all). That revenge killer is usually Weavile, which is itself a controversial threat. If Weavile is banned from the tier (an outcome I would agree with since it is also a fast and powerful Pokemon with limited counterplay), then the majority of teams lose a popular and splashable offensive check to Starmie. Thus, if Weavile gets banned from the tier, Starmie will only blast a wider variety of teams. Therefore, if Weavile does get banned, I would also advocate for Starmie to get removed from the tier.
In conclusion, you can take one of many things from this post:
- Starmie is very fast and powerful with great coverage.
- Starmie has very limited switch-ins because of this.
- Many popular offensive, bulky offense, and balance teams fail to pack one of these limited Starmie switch-ins or a revenge killer that threatens out Starmie (or both).
- Weavile, one of Starmie's best offensive checks, will be voted on. If Weavile leaves the tier, Starmie is going to get even more dangerous.
- Specially defensive Rotom-Wash should become the standard set while Starmie still is in the tier (while you're at it, give it 52 Special Attack EVs to break +1 VinCune's Substitutes and also 8 Speed EVs to outrun Adamant Crawdaunt). It's also nice for handling offensive variants of Heatran.
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Quick note is that Spdef Celebi with rocks up dies to Analytic Ice beam into Ice Beam. So its a very shaky answer anyway
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 200-237 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 153-182 (37.8 - 45%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 153-182 (37.8 - 45%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And also, Gastrodon is horrible vs Recover Offensive Starmie. It basically hopes for Scald burns or Earth power spdef drops and achieves little to nothing. Being a momentum sunk, so, and in conjunction with the other checks except by Blissey, these are not pokemon that are splashable in the common structures, Starmie checks are limited and also rare to have a good build with them.
Expect my Garchomp post soon.
Here before Codex posts Garchomp post (get morbed idiot).
In light of the recent survey (and no one else wanting to write about this mon) I have decided to write about one of the most glaring mons in the metagame for quite a while: Weavile.
Now imagine this was a mon a competitive environment. You could make a relatively "safe" play of switching into it and it will do very little to you and soon be forced out without a problem, and maybe you'll have a chance to U-Turn and gain momentum for yourself. However, you could make those same two plays and wind up losing your mon because on that specific turn you switched out they clicked a different button.
Welcome to the world of Weavile! Where all damage calcs are irrelevant and vibes are the best counter outside of running some shitmon for copium.
Theavile (Weavile) @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Throat Chop
- Assurance
What's really crazy about this set is that you know it's coming before a move is even revealed. Sure, there might be a Beat Up Weavile every once in a while, (which when played right can really be threatening), but you can usually tell by team composition when Weavile will have Beat Up. However, it is really hard to switch into reliably. Ice and Dark stabs allow Weavile to hit every relevant BDSP mon for at least neutral damage except for the following mons
Azumarill
Crawdaunt
Infernape
Lucario
Other Weavile
Poliwrath (?)
Of these pokemon, 4 of them don't really want to take a hit. BD Azu is in a skeptical spot even after pulling off BD. Crawdaunt is a roll to get 2HKOed by Crash. Infernape could in theory come in and kill with Mach, but it usually wants to be healthy in order to fufill its role as a breaker/u-turner reliably. Lucario needs HP in order to be a relevant wincon. Poliwrath does wall Weavile, but that and Crawdaunt is the only reason why it’s ever used in the BDSP OU, and most other MUs will typically leave it as deadweight.
But what about other forms of priority? I mentioned how Infernape could kill Weavile with Mach, surely other mons could do the same. Scizor is one of the most common mons in the metagame, and even without Sciz, rocks can chip Weavile down quickly due to its weakness of them into priority range for other users to revenge kill it.
Well, yes and no.
The thing with rocks is that, despite being weak to one of the most important moves in the game, Weavile is the best abuser of rocks with the use of the move Assurance.
Assurance is what takes Weavile from an already good mon and makes it a great mon, and one that is arguably a broken presence in the meta game. With rocks up, Weavile gains the lost art of trapping. While yes, the mon it's trapping isn't actually trapped and can switch out as it may please, it must be taken into account that whatever mon is coming in is about to take a lot from the incoming Assurance. That includes what probably is the most reliable Weavile "counter" in the game, Heatran.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Assurance vs. 248 HP / 100+ Def Heatran: 219-258 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
While losing up to almost 70% certainly isn’t a death sentence for Heatran, as it is a mon infamous for finding ways to passively get health back, it certainly limits its usefulness in what it can actually switch into throughout a longer game. Heatran's best way of dealing with Weavile is by coming in and hoping that if Weavile gets a strong dark STAB move in Throat Chop or Assurance off on it, that it can somehow pull off a flame body proc and render Weavile useless. It would be one thing if Heatran was statistically expected to get a burn off with enough opportunities to switch in, this may have been the case a year ago, but with Weavile constantly using Assurance to tell Tran to bug off, the Heatran player isn't expected to pull off the burn in the first place. So is it really worth it to risk one of your best team members for a 30% chance of a status?
The last paragraph is a constant conundrum of Weavile both in the builder and in games. You have your best Weavile check that's very much splash able, but is it really enough to have a consistent team? If you have a Gliscor out against a Weavile and a Heatran in the back, do you stay in in prediction of the incoming assurance and try to knock them off or use U-Turn to get another mon safely, but also risk your EQ immune to what seems to be very obvious icicle crash? Or do you switch into Tran to take minimal damage, but also lose the opportunity to burn it and risk the possibility of getting hit by Assurance?
If you swap Skarm or Clef in on Icicle Crash, how long do you stay in in order to stay healthy for other teammates? If you switch out immediately, Weavile just threatens to kill it with a potential Icicle Crash as soon as the next time it comes out. If you stay in, you risk getting flinched and being forced out anyways. If Sciz comes in on assurance, do you roost to keep it healthy by roosting (while also risking losing Sciz) or bullet punch to kill the Weavile but risk a counter coming in and forcing Sciz out at a very low percentage?
There are plenty of scenarios where the play to make isn't obvious. However, in most of these scenarios, the Weavile player has less to lose. Being wrong as the Weavile player just means you will have to wait for another opportunity to deliver a hefty blow later in the game. Being wrong as the non-Weavile player can lead to losing a mon, and potentially losing the game soon after. The non-Weavile player is just trying to make it through the turn and is hoping to live to see another turn. The Weavile player is the aggressor, and just needs one turn to get it right and the entire game could potentially change.
Just like Voltorb Flip, with Weavile out, you are playing not to lose, because the house always wins.
Disclaimer: I am not in any way encouraging gambling or any gambling products.
In light of the recent survey (and no one else wanting to write about this mon) I have decided to write about one of the most glaring mons in the metagame for quite a while: Weavile.
THE GOLDENROD GAME CORNER: SMOGON EDITION
Does anyone remember that Voltorb Flip game in HGSS? The game that was essentially minesweeper? You'd have a 5x5 table and every tile would have one of two results. You could get coins from clicking a tile, which is dependent on how close to a Voltorb you were, or how close you were to failing the game. The other option is that you get a Voltorb, which ends up blowing in your face and you end up losing all of your hard worked coins that you have built up throughout the game.
Now imagine this was a mon a competitive environment. You could make a relatively "safe" play of switching into it and it will do very little to you and soon be forced out without a problem, and maybe you'll have a chance to U-Turn and gain momentum for yourself. However, you could make those same two plays and wind up losing your mon because on that specific turn you switched out they clicked a different button.
Welcome to the world of Weavile! Where all damage calcs are irrelevant and vibes are the best counter outside of running some shitmon for copium.
Theavile (Weavile) @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Throat Chop
- Assurance
What's really crazy about this set is that you know it's coming before a move is even revealed. Sure, there might be a Beat Up Weavile every once in a while, (which when played right can really be threatening), but you can usually tell by team composition when Weavile will have Beat Up. However, it is really hard to switch into reliably. Ice and Dark stabs allow Weavile to hit every relevant BDSP mon for at least neutral damage except for the following mons
Azumarill
Crawdaunt
Infernape
Lucario
Other Weavile
Poliwrath (?)
Of these pokemon, 4 of them don't really want to take a hit. BD Azu is in a skeptical spot even after pulling off BD. Crawdaunt is a roll to get 2HKOed by Crash. Infernape could in theory come in and kill with Mach, but it usually wants to be healthy in order to fufill its role as a breaker/u-turner reliably. Lucario needs HP in order to be a relevant wincon. Poliwrath does wall Weavile, but that and Crawdaunt is the only reason why it’s ever used in the BDSP OU, and most other MUs will typically leave it as deadweight.
But what about other forms of priority? I mentioned how Infernape could kill Weavile with Mach, surely other mons could do the same. Scizor is one of the most common mons in the metagame, and even without Sciz, rocks can chip Weavile down quickly due to its weakness of them into priority range for other users to revenge kill it.
Well, yes and no.
The thing with rocks is that, despite being weak to one of the most important moves in the game, Weavile is the best abuser of rocks with the use of the move Assurance.
Assurance is what takes Weavile from an already good mon and makes it a great mon, and one that is arguably a broken presence in the meta game. With rocks up, Weavile gains the lost art of trapping. While yes, the mon it's trapping isn't actually trapped and can switch out as it may please, it must be taken into account that whatever mon is coming in is about to take a lot from the incoming Assurance. That includes what probably is the most reliable Weavile "counter" in the game, Heatran.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Assurance vs. 248 HP / 100+ Def Heatran: 219-258 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
While losing up to almost 70% certainly isn’t a death sentence for Heatran, as it is a mon infamous for finding ways to passively get health back, it certainly limits its usefulness in what it can actually switch into throughout a longer game. Heatran's best way of dealing with Weavile is by coming in and hoping that if Weavile gets a strong dark STAB move in Throat Chop or Assurance off on it, that it can somehow pull off a flame body proc and render Weavile useless. It would be one thing if Heatran was statistically expected to get a burn off with enough opportunities to switch in, this may have been the case a year ago, but with Weavile constantly using Assurance to tell Tran to bug off, the Heatran player isn't expected to pull off the burn in the first place. So is it really worth it to risk one of your best team members for a 30% chance of a status?
The last paragraph is a constant conundrum of Weavile both in the builder and in games. You have your best Weavile check that's very much splash able, but is it really enough to have a consistent team? If you have a Gliscor out against a Weavile and a Heatran in the back, do you stay in in prediction of the incoming assurance and try to knock them off or use U-Turn to get another mon safely, but also risk your EQ immune to what seems to be very obvious icicle crash? Or do you switch into Tran to take minimal damage, but also lose the opportunity to burn it and risk the possibility of getting hit by Assurance?
If you swap Skarm or Clef in on Icicle Crash, how long do you stay in in order to stay healthy for other teammates? If you switch out immediately, Weavile just threatens to kill it with a potential Icicle Crash as soon as the next time it comes out. If you stay in, you risk getting flinched and being forced out anyways. If Sciz comes in on assurance, do you roost to keep it healthy by roosting (while also risking losing Sciz) or bullet punch to kill the Weavile but risk a counter coming in and forcing Sciz out at a very low percentage?
There are plenty of scenarios where the play to make isn't obvious. However, in most of these scenarios, the Weavile player has less to lose. Being wrong as the Weavile player just means you will have to wait for another opportunity to deliver a hefty blow later in the game. Being wrong as the non-Weavile player can lead to losing a mon, and potentially losing the game soon after. The non-Weavile player is just trying to make it through the turn and is hoping to live to see another turn. The Weavile player is the aggressor, and just needs one turn to get it right and the entire game could potentially change.
Just like Voltorb Flip, with Weavile out, you are playing not to lose, because the house always wins.
Disclaimer: I am not in any way encouraging gambling or any gambling products.
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Hello fellow BDSP enjoyers! The ones that are left at least, I want to address one of the Pokemon that its on the survey right now. And one that hasnt been seen by the community as a problem, but its one that is imo the best Pokemon in the tier atm. A powerful presence that is splashable and versatile. The OG DPP demon in BDSP.
Garchomp has been a dominant force since the beginning of the meta. Now, with a lot of meta development Garchomp has customised to different sets performing as a premiere breaker and a fearful sweeper. Its one of the best if not the best progress maker in the game. Its dual STAB + coverage and utility options is very hard to manage. And deceptively hard to counter, people have resorted to checks that if you look deeper, aren't actually doing the job of checking it. Lets show some sets and what is considered as answers.
As you can see, Garchomp has a plethora of sets that fit on most common archetypes. Some defensive answers, Gliscor, Clefable, Skarmory, Tangrowth and Rotom-Wash, and more that would be called answers, can get overpowered depending on the Garchomp set, and most importantly, Garchomp player always has the advantage, both in the builder and in play, to burst through what it needs to for itself or a partner, or a partner for it to sweep. Its wonderful typing, speed and offensivess just allow it to pick and even burst through more than one check if needed, or those pokemon have to fulfill other roles in the game so when they face Garchomp they become overwhelmed already. We'll have a look at the so-called checks.
1. Fake answers
Long story short: All these guys suck at checking Chomp, you need Clefable + one of these to make a good defensive core vs one pokemon
Lets inspect each of them.
is a defensive pivot that sweats when the opposing Chomp SDs on the switch. Garchomp player has all the advantage, in a test with Skittyrox. We observed that the 1v1 ends up with Chomp alive at +4 with around 30% of health and Gliscor dead, the latter being fully physically defensive. Whereas Chomp was just SD leftovers. This shows how unrealiable Gliscor is as a check, especially if it isn't U-turn or Ice Fang, if it switches in it would simply lose, it doesn't even allow it to trade with Chomp
is the most controversial here. Most players would say this is the mon that stops Chomp from going crazy, but does it? Thanks to Garchomp's multiple opportunities to setup in front of Heatran, locked Rotom, Gliscor, Blissey and sometimes even Scizor. Clefable has been cornered to use its less superior ability, Unaware. Which yeah, ignores Garchomp boost but barely holds in for it to be broken by Garchomp.
And theres two common scenarios where Garchomp just bypasses Clef, hazards, Clef because unaware will get worn down by hazards, and with rocks and/or spikes up cannot switch into any boosting item Chomp. The second is just predicting clef and let it low. Heres a replay with my friend Skitty where Garchomp single-handedly put Clef from an answer to a useless mon by itself. Clicking Poison Jab on the switch.
Clefable is one of the most shaky answers to Garchomp and it cannnot withstand it on its own, you need both offensive and defensive answers.
These are simply packed by any Chomp that runs Fire Blast on it, which is common enough. Even Jolly Fire Blast is enough. And you can still run SD on those sets.
0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 158-186 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Phys def Mew is something uncommon cuz they are usually designed to take on Starmie and Nidoking, but I think is worth mentioning since it does stop a Chomp from sweeping you, still will be hurt badly after a boosted EQ or Outrage.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Mew: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Another thing to note is that none of these pokemon actually threaten Chomp out. Even if you get a play wrong, clef isn't likely to moonblast a chomp at full. It will wish up. So even if you got one turn wrong you will be fine. Garchomp is just that good.
2. Water 'answers'
Might be one of the best Chomp answers, but its rarely seen in common builds. It can sponge Chomp strong attacks and heal back with Regen, it lives a LO +2 EQ after rocks, which is not something even mon can do. But even under those circumstances. It seems players have not adopted this pokemon on their builds to take on Garchomp. Also Slowbro usually dies to Chainchomp combination of Draco + EQ
The recent milotic sets have driven to a more Spdef oriented set, being able to take on Latias and Heatran better, a phys def set can work as a blanket but it will be forced to recover after coming on a Chomps EQ. And it honestly just does Slowbro but worst in the battle vs Chomp. Dont get me wrong, Milotic is far better pokemon imo. Underrated, but its a shaky answer nonetheless
Is old reliable, everyone knows this alone doesnt check Chomp but it can status it and blanket EQs with levitate. Still, lately Rotom has shifted to more offensive sets, and even spdef ones for Starmie. And if you are old school, Lum negates all the progress Rotom made, and Willo makes it not run other relevant mons like Protect or Twave. Hydro does decent damage. But Rotom suffers from SD boosted attacks and specially Chainchomp.
Defensive is an interesting case that in can come hard in because it outspeeds Garchomp and force it out cuz it threatens it back. But the problem is that is way less bulkier than the others. So at best in can come once, recover and then its barely a switch again. Specially with rocks up and you having no room to Spin.
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 56 Def Starmie: 230-270 (71.8 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
3. Offensive checks
This part is way easier to understand. Outspeed or priority kill it. The problem is that no Pokemon here wants to switch in on it. Except for Togekiss, which Ill address here.
is inmune to both STAB combination and its usually a useful answer vs Chomp but even then, its most consistent set is currently scarf. And you will not consider this mon as a defensive answer. Togekiss is purely offensive, and it needs the speed and Fairy move to revenge kill. Alongside is weak to rocks so it comes in limited amount of times.
is interesting cuz if you have balls you can use this to come hard in paired with a heatran. Which is quite a common core, but I would say the Chomp player has the advantage in that scenario anyway. If you get that play wrong you'll lose your Chomp reliable revenge killer and you'll be in a losing position.
Of course there is more to it, can force it out if its at full and has Jet for a weakened Chomp, faster mons like 
and can hit it hard for good damage. Scarfers like 
and the aforementioned can also ease the pain, and I guess also (?
My analysis on Garchomp is that even if it is an S mon without a doubt, its still underrated in its capability of just winning games easily and breaking common teams. Its virtually unwallable, extremely splashable and fit so many roles in the same Pokemon. Its too consistent, too good.
That it might be the actual problem that we need to tackle. I'll like to hear your thoughts about it!
SD Rocks (Garchomp) @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
SD Fire Blast (Garchomp) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
SD PJab (Garchomp) @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
Band (Garchomp) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge / Poison Jab
Chainchomp (Garchomp) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
Sub SD (Garchomp) @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Substitute
Scarf (Garchomp) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Claw
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
SD Fire Blast (Garchomp) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
SD PJab (Garchomp) @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
Band (Garchomp) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge / Poison Jab
Chainchomp (Garchomp) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
Sub SD (Garchomp) @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Substitute
Scarf (Garchomp) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Claw
As you can see, Garchomp has a plethora of sets that fit on most common archetypes. Some defensive answers, Gliscor, Clefable, Skarmory, Tangrowth and Rotom-Wash, and more that would be called answers, can get overpowered depending on the Garchomp set, and most importantly, Garchomp player always has the advantage, both in the builder and in play, to burst through what it needs to for itself or a partner, or a partner for it to sweep. Its wonderful typing, speed and offensivess just allow it to pick and even burst through more than one check if needed, or those pokemon have to fulfill other roles in the game so when they face Garchomp they become overwhelmed already. We'll have a look at the so-called checks.
1. Fake answers
Long story short: All these guys suck at checking Chomp, you need Clefable + one of these to make a good defensive core vs one pokemon
Lets inspect each of them.
is a defensive pivot that sweats when the opposing Chomp SDs on the switch. Garchomp player has all the advantage, in a test with Skittyrox. We observed that the 1v1 ends up with Chomp alive at +4 with around 30% of health and Gliscor dead, the latter being fully physically defensive. Whereas Chomp was just SD leftovers. This shows how unrealiable Gliscor is as a check, especially if it isn't U-turn or Ice Fang, if it switches in it would simply lose, it doesn't even allow it to trade with Chomp is the most controversial here. Most players would say this is the mon that stops Chomp from going crazy, but does it? Thanks to Garchomp's multiple opportunities to setup in front of Heatran, locked Rotom, Gliscor, Blissey and sometimes even Scizor. Clefable has been cornered to use its less superior ability, Unaware. Which yeah, ignores Garchomp boost but barely holds in for it to be broken by Garchomp.And theres two common scenarios where Garchomp just bypasses Clef, hazards, Clef because unaware will get worn down by hazards, and with rocks and/or spikes up cannot switch into any boosting item Chomp. The second is just predicting clef and let it low. Heres a replay with my friend Skitty where Garchomp single-handedly put Clef from an answer to a useless mon by itself. Clicking Poison Jab on the switch.
Clefable is one of the most shaky answers to Garchomp and it cannnot withstand it on its own, you need both offensive and defensive answers.
These are simply packed by any Chomp that runs Fire Blast on it, which is common enough. Even Jolly Fire Blast is enough. And you can still run SD on those sets.0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 158-186 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Phys def Mew is something uncommon cuz they are usually designed to take on Starmie and Nidoking, but I think is worth mentioning since it does stop a Chomp from sweeping you, still will be hurt badly after a boosted EQ or Outrage.+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Mew: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Another thing to note is that none of these pokemon actually threaten Chomp out. Even if you get a play wrong, clef isn't likely to moonblast a chomp at full. It will wish up. So even if you got one turn wrong you will be fine. Garchomp is just that good.
2. Water 'answers'
Might be one of the best Chomp answers, but its rarely seen in common builds. It can sponge Chomp strong attacks and heal back with Regen, it lives a LO +2 EQ after rocks, which is not something even mon can do. But even under those circumstances. It seems players have not adopted this pokemon on their builds to take on Garchomp. Also Slowbro usually dies to Chainchomp combination of Draco + EQ The recent milotic sets have driven to a more Spdef oriented set, being able to take on Latias and Heatran better, a phys def set can work as a blanket but it will be forced to recover after coming on a Chomps EQ. And it honestly just does Slowbro but worst in the battle vs Chomp. Dont get me wrong, Milotic is far better pokemon imo. Underrated, but its a shaky answer nonetheless Is old reliable, everyone knows this alone doesnt check Chomp but it can status it and blanket EQs with levitate. Still, lately Rotom has shifted to more offensive sets, and even spdef ones for Starmie. And if you are old school, Lum negates all the progress Rotom made, and Willo makes it not run other relevant mons like Protect or Twave. Hydro does decent damage. But Rotom suffers from SD boosted attacks and specially Chainchomp.Defensive
is an interesting case that in can come hard in because it outspeeds Garchomp and force it out cuz it threatens it back. But the problem is that is way less bulkier than the others. So at best in can come once, recover and then its barely a switch again. Specially with rocks up and you having no room to Spin.252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 56 Def Starmie: 230-270 (71.8 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
3. Offensive checks
This part is way easier to understand. Outspeed or priority kill it. The problem is that no Pokemon here wants to switch in on it. Except for Togekiss, which Ill address here.
is inmune to both STAB combination and its usually a useful answer vs Chomp but even then, its most consistent set is currently scarf. And you will not consider this mon as a defensive answer. Togekiss is purely offensive, and it needs the speed and Fairy move to revenge kill. Alongside is weak to rocks so it comes in limited amount of times. is interesting cuz if you have balls you can use this to come hard in paired with a heatran. Which is quite a common core, but I would say the Chomp player has the advantage in that scenario anyway. If you get that play wrong you'll lose your Chomp reliable revenge killer and you'll be in a losing position.Of course there is more to it,
can force it out if its at full and has Jet for a weakened Chomp, faster mons like and can hit it hard for good damage. Scarfers like and the aforementioned can also ease the pain, and I guess also (?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My analysis on Garchomp is that even if it is an S mon without a doubt, its still underrated in its capability of just winning games easily and breaking common teams. Its virtually unwallable, extremely splashable and fit so many roles in the same Pokemon. Its too consistent, too good.
That it might be the actual problem that we need to tackle. I'll like to hear your thoughts about it!
I do not believe Garchomp to be broken, at least in our current metagame.
Stacking counterplay for Garchomp, both offensive and defensive, is something lots of teams can accomplish naturally (especially since a lot of Garchomp checks synergize so well with each other) without compromising themselves versus other threats in the tier, which I believe is the point where the 'stacking checks' strategy starts to fall into problematic territory.
There's also the fact that its set variety can seem a lot larger and fearsome on paper rather than in practice, sets you listed such as Substitute or Choice Band are much rarer in actual games and are more novelty than anything, and item choices like Lum or resist berries don't offer as much as they should when you give up more useful items like Leftovers and Life Orb. There's also the conversation to be had about how good Choice Scarf Garchomp is right now with bulkier balance teams that can play around it rather well being more common than they were before.
It is true that Garchomp is very strong, but I do not believe it to be so strong as to be banworthy since checks are plentiful throughout the tier and are good beyond their ability to check Garchomp. It's not something you can blatantly ignore in the builder but you're never so hard pressed to fit answers that you end up with a worse team, it's a strong presence in battle but you should never be instantly screwed whenever it hits the field.
There is maybe something to be said about how it would fare if Weavile and/or Starmie were to be banned, but that's a bridge that can only be crossed if/when we reach there.
At least that's my opinion on the matter.
Stacking counterplay for Garchomp, both offensive and defensive, is something lots of teams can accomplish naturally (especially since a lot of Garchomp checks synergize so well with each other) without compromising themselves versus other threats in the tier, which I believe is the point where the 'stacking checks' strategy starts to fall into problematic territory.
There's also the fact that its set variety can seem a lot larger and fearsome on paper rather than in practice, sets you listed such as Substitute or Choice Band are much rarer in actual games and are more novelty than anything, and item choices like Lum or resist berries don't offer as much as they should when you give up more useful items like Leftovers and Life Orb. There's also the conversation to be had about how good Choice Scarf Garchomp is right now with bulkier balance teams that can play around it rather well being more common than they were before.
It is true that Garchomp is very strong, but I do not believe it to be so strong as to be banworthy since checks are plentiful throughout the tier and are good beyond their ability to check Garchomp. It's not something you can blatantly ignore in the builder but you're never so hard pressed to fit answers that you end up with a worse team, it's a strong presence in battle but you should never be instantly screwed whenever it hits the field.
There is maybe something to be said about how it would fare if Weavile and/or Starmie were to be banned, but that's a bridge that can only be crossed if/when we reach there.
At least that's my opinion on the matter.
Hey yall. Its me again. I started to upload content on YouTube. And I did a vid on my current thoughts of the metagame. Including the survey thats ongoing now. So yes this is spam but its also on topic. Please go check it out! I'll appreciate all types of support
Now that Circuit playoffs are (FINALLY) over, I can put up the usage stats for the games:
BDSP OU
BDSP OU
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Scizor | 49 | 72.06% | 51.02% |
| 2 | Clefable | 33 | 48.53% | 54.55% |
| 3 | Gliscor | 27 | 39.71% | 62.96% |
| 3 | Heatran | 27 | 39.71% | 40.74% |
| 5 | Latias | 26 | 38.24% | 53.85% |
| 5 | Garchomp | 26 | 38.24% | 46.15% |
| 7 | Rotom-Wash | 24 | 35.29% | 41.67% |
| 8 | Weavile | 17 | 25.00% | 35.29% |
| 9 | Roserade | 12 | 17.65% | 83.33% |
| 9 | Infernape | 12 | 17.65% | 66.67% |
| 9 | Starmie | 12 | 17.65% | 41.67% |
| 12 | Crawdaunt | 11 | 16.18% | 59.09% |
| 13 | Skarmory | 9 | 13.24% | 66.67% |
| 13 | Tangrowth | 9 | 13.24% | 33.33% |
| 15 | Lucario | 8 | 11.76% | 62.50% |
| 16 | Magnezone | 7 | 10.29% | 57.14% |
| 16 | Mew | 7 | 10.29% | 42.86% |
| 18 | Milotic | 6 | 8.82% | 83.33% |
| 18 | Blissey | 6 | 8.82% | 58.33% |
| 18 | Celebi | 6 | 8.82% | 25.00% |
| 21 | Suicune | 5 | 7.35% | 70.00% |
| 21 | Togekiss | 5 | 7.35% | 60.00% |
| 21 | Dragonite | 5 | 7.35% | 40.00% |
| 21 | Azumarill | 5 | 7.35% | 40.00% |
| 21 | Alakazam | 5 | 7.35% | 40.00% |
| 21 | Nidoking | 5 | 7.35% | 0.00% |
| 27 | Tyranitar | 3 | 4.41% | 66.67% |
| 27 | Raikou | 3 | 4.41% | 33.33% |
| 27 | Azelf | 3 | 4.41% | 33.33% |
| 27 | Staraptor | 3 | 4.41% | 33.33% |
| 31 | Slowbro | 2 | 2.94% | 50.00% |
| 31 | Mismagius | 2 | 2.94% | 50.00% |
| 31 | Mamoswine | 2 | 2.94% | 50.00% |
| 31 | Crobat | 2 | 2.94% | 50.00% |
| 31 | Breloom | 2 | 2.94% | 50.00% |
| 31 | Gastrodon | 2 | 2.94% | 50.00% |
| 31 | Volbeat | 2 | 2.94% | 0.00% |
| 31 | Qwilfish | 2 | 2.94% | 0.00% |
| 31 | Kingdra | 2 | 2.94% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Aerodactyl | 1 | 1.47% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Blastoise | 1 | 1.47% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Jirachi | 1 | 1.47% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Feraligatr | 1 | 1.47% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Moltres | 1 | 1.47% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Poliwrath | 1 | 1.47% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Salamence | 1 | 1.47% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Machamp | 1 | 1.47% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Cresselia | 1 | 1.47% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Bronzong | 1 | 1.47% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Rhyperior | 1 | 1.47% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Ludicolo | 1 | 1.47% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Slowking | 1 | 1.47% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Quagsire | 1 | 1.47% | 0.00% |Round 1
(1) Elfuseon vs (16) SpaceSpeakers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735864
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735865
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735866
(3) dunoks vs (14) Scarf Kricketune
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735318
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735328
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735338
(4) Banbadoro vs (13) Trogba Trogba
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735547
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735551
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735549
(5) Huargensy vs (12) AstilCodex
No games (really Huargensy?)
(6) igiveuponaname vs (11) Skitty (Skittyrox)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735471
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735472
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735473
(7) AquaticCarlie vs (10) ToasterBoi420
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735016
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735017
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735018
(8) MTB vs (9) Boopi_Bappi
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735252
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735256
Quarterfinals
(1) Elfuseon vs (8) MTB
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-736174
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-736175
(2) TyCarter vs (7) AquaticCarlie
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-736176
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-736177
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-736179
(3) dunoks vs (6) igiveuponaname
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2014542525-elqyia2mmhv5ptjmqub9xu8zet77ofdpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2014555732-70rvgmw28tip24qympz8tbcaa9y7nb2pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2014558332-9mu4f0zrl968xbujzq3r0zizcqm5x7dpw
(12) AstilCodex vs (13) Trogba Trogba
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2022763077-ugtxwhwkrwoqbtko0ltjuyl1zp4kr2qpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2022776291-mnxzn2wrm9085fe9g921pcndyjjkrncpw
Semifinals
(1) Elfuseon vs (12) AstilCodex
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-738085
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-738104
(2) TyCarter vs (3) dunoks
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2035183777
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2035188249?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2035192254
Finals
(1) Elfuseon vs (3) dunoks
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2047961181-83brwnedzczmdflere76xn5kg2l6w4wpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2047987533-k65paxhqabvqt7pda3ktjcknhwsvf3kpw
(1) Elfuseon vs (16) SpaceSpeakers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735864
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735865
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735866
(3) dunoks vs (14) Scarf Kricketune
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735318
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735328
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735338
(4) Banbadoro vs (13) Trogba Trogba
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735547
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735551
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735549
(5) Huargensy vs (12) AstilCodex
No games (really Huargensy?)
(6) igiveuponaname vs (11) Skitty (Skittyrox)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735471
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735472
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735473
(7) AquaticCarlie vs (10) ToasterBoi420
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735016
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735017
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735018
(8) MTB vs (9) Boopi_Bappi
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735252
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-735256
Quarterfinals
(1) Elfuseon vs (8) MTB
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-736174
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-736175
(2) TyCarter vs (7) AquaticCarlie
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-736176
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-736177
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-736179
(3) dunoks vs (6) igiveuponaname
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2014542525-elqyia2mmhv5ptjmqub9xu8zet77ofdpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2014555732-70rvgmw28tip24qympz8tbcaa9y7nb2pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2014558332-9mu4f0zrl968xbujzq3r0zizcqm5x7dpw
(12) AstilCodex vs (13) Trogba Trogba
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2022763077-ugtxwhwkrwoqbtko0ltjuyl1zp4kr2qpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2022776291-mnxzn2wrm9085fe9g921pcndyjjkrncpw
Semifinals
(1) Elfuseon vs (12) AstilCodex
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-738085
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-738104
(2) TyCarter vs (3) dunoks
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2035183777
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2035188249?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2035192254
Finals
(1) Elfuseon vs (3) dunoks
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2047961181-83brwnedzczmdflere76xn5kg2l6w4wpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-2047987533-k65paxhqabvqt7pda3ktjcknhwsvf3kpw
Interesting to see the three mons that were discussed as being broken all having sub 50% winrates. I wonder what exactly is the reasoning behind this. Was it the massive popularity of mons like Scizor and Clef for the case of Weavile? People not using them enough (or at least not the 'broken' sets) in the case of Starmie? Simply poor performance from the players using them, or simply bad luck?
Of course one tournament doesn't cover the bigger picture, but it's still interesting to think about especially when this was the last tournament of the 2023 circuit.
Nobody watch this replay.
Made a new vid about Assurance Weavile! Hope you check it out! And check my other vids as well<3
Disclaimer: I'm absolutely serious about this post and nomination (will do a post in VR thread soon) so I'd like it to be taken seriously and with a open mind apporach. Especially on future VR updates and for council.
So, I'm gonna be posting a lot these days. But I wanted to start with a essay-like post of a Pokemon that I've used in seasonal a few times, and currently has an 100% WR in my hands. And I think it deserves to be considered.
Introducing Miltank to BDSP OU
Miltank fulfills a unique role I was struggling to come up in the builder, which is basically a reliable Weavile check thanks to Thick Fat, that let me perform my Steel-types like Heatran and Scizor in a more offensive way without worrying, also helping with Mamoswine in the same regard, and being one of the best if not the best Heatran switch-in in the tier. Miltank also is one of the few Mons who can cleric, which is underrated and very appreciated in this tier currently, as pokemon like Clefable and Blissey struggle to slot it in as much as they would want to. And its also like Blissey, a normal type with instant recovery in Milk Drink. In any case, Miltank performs better in balance cores, as I will show you below.
In general, I think bulky normal types are in its best right now, like Blissey and Snorlax, but Miltank is more oriented to tank hits on the physical side.
-
Its stats distribution is quite useful and decieving, it has a fantastic bulk in 95/105/70. And an outstanding speed tier for a wall in base 100. Its ability, the most useful and the one that gives it the niche in OU is Thick Fat. Letting it come as a reliable answer on Heatran, Weavile, and Mamoswine, as said before. Even locked in Infernape.
Amaze yourself with the cow's bulk:
As you may have seen, I don't have max Defense on those calcs, though you can definitely go max. But I made a spread that allows me go get the best of the blanketing of Miltank capabilities while also making use of its high speed tier.
This is the set I was running, 96 Spe Jolly allows it to outspeed base 80s. So Jolly Mamoswine, Togekiss, Timid Heatran. Having the option to heal first than getting hit by a second move or a Taunt is huge in favor of Miltank defensive capabilities. EQ is for Heatran and Magnezone Ofc. Body Slam I prefer to hit and spread paras tho it can use Seismic Toss too, recovery ofc and Heal Bell which is very valuable to have. Miltank gets other utility moves in Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave too, but I wouldn't use a slot of Miltank as there other mons that can pair with her and do better at that.
Good partners.
Scizor and Clef hate being statused, they also don't like coming on Weavile as they would prefer to be used in other roles and not get worn down. And also they get completely countered by Heatran. Scizor + Clef + Miltank is a fantastic core, it allows Scizor and Clef to use different sets and more offensive oriented ones if need be. Heatran also doesn't want to come on Weavile and Miltank dealing with it and opposing Heatran lets your Heatran run offensive too.
Any viable Psychic-type in any performing role appreciates having Miltank as a reliable answer to Weavile and Heatran, for obvious reasons. In the case of Starmie, Mew and Latias, Removal for Miltank is very appreciated. Celebi, Mew and Latias can also perform as an answer to Offensive Starmie, which Miltank struggles with.
Phys def Gliscor is a great teammate that can Defog for Miltank and help VS fighting types like Infernape and Lucario, as Miltank will come on Heatran, Gliscor has an opening to run physically defensive.
(again)
Offensive water types love the ability of Miltank to come in on Weav, heatran and Mamo, letting them keep their health and recuding the times they'll come hard to take a hit and be hindered.
Replays:
Vs Skittyrox - Friendly
Miltank puts an insane amount of work here. Clearing both Paras on Lati and Clef. Then later in the game, Miltank successfully 1v1s a Mamoswine starting at 40% and eating an EQ crit. Then proceeds to tank a +6 Azumarill AJ and paralyzed it back with Body Slam
vs Banbadoro - Seasonal Round 8
Same situation here, Miltank exceeds in its roll as a Heatran answer that can also punish back and tank physical hits, its effectively unbreakable by Banbadoros team at some point, Miltank even trades turns with Garchomp clicking EQ on her. Gliscor can't do much back. And even a boosted Flash Fire offensive Heatran isnt enough. Miltank remains alive and lets SD offensive Scizor win the game after Starmie got paralyzed.
I have another replay of it tanking a CB Knock from Crawdaunt and forcing it out as Itemless Miltank 1v1s but that is up there in the calcs already.
In conclusion, Miltank is a discoverment I made throughout the course of the last seasonal and it really impressed me on how good its role was, it was far from a meme, and I decided to bring it twice in later rounds in the seasonal because it was performing solidly. The miltank squad remains with 100% WR and I think Miltank should be considered to be tiered.
So, I'm gonna be posting a lot these days. But I wanted to start with a essay-like post of a Pokemon that I've used in seasonal a few times, and currently has an 100% WR in my hands. And I think it deserves to be considered.
In general, I think bulky normal types are in its best right now, like Blissey and Snorlax, but Miltank is more oriented to tank hits on the physical side.
Its stats distribution is quite useful and decieving, it has a fantastic bulk in 95/105/70. And an outstanding speed tier for a wall in base 100. Its ability, the most useful and the one that gives it the niche in OU is Thick Fat. Letting it come as a reliable answer on Heatran, Weavile, and Mamoswine, as said before. Even locked in Infernape.
Amaze yourself with the cow's bulk:
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 109-130 (27.6 - 32.9%) -- 92.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage. Reminder that its faster than Timid Heatran and can EQ back.
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Miltank: 175-208 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Thick Fat Miltank: 75-90 (19 - 22.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Thick Fat Miltank: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Miltank: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Thick Fat Miltank: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Miltank: 262-309 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Miltank: 280-330 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Miltank: 351-413 (89 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Miltank: 271-321 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Miltank: 175-208 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Thick Fat Miltank: 75-90 (19 - 22.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Thick Fat Miltank: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Miltank: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Thick Fat Miltank: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Miltank: 262-309 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Miltank: 280-330 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Miltank: 351-413 (89 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Miltank: 271-321 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As you may have seen, I don't have max Defense on those calcs, though you can definitely go max. But I made a spread that allows me go get the best of the blanketing of Miltank capabilities while also making use of its high speed tier.
MommyMilkers (Miltank) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Milk Drink
- Earthquake
- Body Slam
- Heal Bell
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Milk Drink
- Earthquake
- Body Slam
- Heal Bell
This is the set I was running, 96 Spe Jolly allows it to outspeed base 80s. So Jolly Mamoswine, Togekiss, Timid Heatran. Having the option to heal first than getting hit by a second move or a Taunt is huge in favor of Miltank defensive capabilities. EQ is for Heatran and Magnezone Ofc. Body Slam I prefer to hit and spread paras tho it can use Seismic Toss too, recovery ofc and Heal Bell which is very valuable to have. Miltank gets other utility moves in Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave too, but I wouldn't use a slot of Miltank as there other mons that can pair with her and do better at that.
Good partners.
Scizor and Clef hate being statused, they also don't like coming on Weavile as they would prefer to be used in other roles and not get worn down. And also they get completely countered by Heatran. Scizor + Clef + Miltank is a fantastic core, it allows Scizor and Clef to use different sets and more offensive oriented ones if need be. Heatran also doesn't want to come on Weavile and Miltank dealing with it and opposing Heatran lets your Heatran run offensive too.
Any viable Psychic-type in any performing role appreciates having Miltank as a reliable answer to Weavile and Heatran, for obvious reasons. In the case of Starmie, Mew and Latias, Removal for Miltank is very appreciated. Celebi, Mew and Latias can also perform as an answer to Offensive Starmie, which Miltank struggles with.
Phys def Gliscor is a great teammate that can Defog for Miltank and help VS fighting types like Infernape and Lucario, as Miltank will come on Heatran, Gliscor has an opening to run physically defensive.
Offensive water types love the ability of Miltank to come in on Weav, heatran and Mamo, letting them keep their health and recuding the times they'll come hard to take a hit and be hindered.
Replays:
Vs Skittyrox - Friendly
Miltank puts an insane amount of work here. Clearing both Paras on Lati and Clef. Then later in the game, Miltank successfully 1v1s a Mamoswine starting at 40% and eating an EQ crit. Then proceeds to tank a +6 Azumarill AJ and paralyzed it back with Body Slam
vs Banbadoro - Seasonal Round 8
Same situation here, Miltank exceeds in its roll as a Heatran answer that can also punish back and tank physical hits, its effectively unbreakable by Banbadoros team at some point, Miltank even trades turns with Garchomp clicking EQ on her. Gliscor can't do much back. And even a boosted Flash Fire offensive Heatran isnt enough. Miltank remains alive and lets SD offensive Scizor win the game after Starmie got paralyzed.
I have another replay of it tanking a CB Knock from Crawdaunt and forcing it out as Itemless Miltank 1v1s but that is up there in the calcs already.
In conclusion, Miltank is a discoverment I made throughout the course of the last seasonal and it really impressed me on how good its role was, it was far from a meme, and I decided to bring it twice in later rounds in the seasonal because it was performing solidly. The miltank squad remains with 100% WR and I think Miltank should be considered to be tiered.
Last edited:
It's been quite a long time since my last post. Touching grass and being tier leader don't help to contribute as much as I would like to the metagame discussions. Nonetheless I have some thoughts as BDSP OU Council member that I really want to share today. People who know me well know my lack of enjoyment playing BDSP OU since quite a long period now. This opinion of mine kinda goes against a vast majority of the playerbase who answered to the survey at the beginning of the year.
Competitiveness is supposed to be an objective metric, unlike enjoyability, of a metagame. Truth is it is only the most objective metric that we have, thus we can work with. Competitiveness is in fact determined by the gathered opinions of a representative playerbase. You only need to read any suspect test thread to realize that competitiveness is still an opinion. I think BDSP competitiveness is decent but can be improved in regards on my own criterias.
At different stage of the two last years, 3 pokémon have been the topic of being potentially bannable:Weavile, Garchomp and more recently Starmie. 
Manaphy also has been a topic as being potentially fine for the metagame mainly because it didn't seem a problem in last year BDSPPL II when it was featured in the first two weeks in the OU Suspect slot. Playerbase opinion is that none of them is deemed broken and I agree.
My point of view lies elsewhere, and the further it progresses, the stronger my opinion becomes. I really have liked the creativity people have shown to find new ways to win. We don't need to look far back in this thread to find interesting innovations (s/o to my beloved AstilCodex ). Though, most if not all innovations have consolidated one and only playstyle: Balance. Chess masters have taken a lot of fun lately to grind any game by spreading status and chiping opposing mons bit by bit. Meanwhile, all other playstyles to different degrees have struggled to be proficient. There is no single culprit to this but multiple reasons that, aggregated, made the BDSP OU metagame quite unhealthy. Among them, Weavile, Garchomp and Starmie between else contributes to this and I don't think Manaphy would solve anything. On this point, I am open to develop my argument much more if asked to but I didn't want to make even longer what is already an essay.
That all being said, I and TyCarter ackowledged the fact that, if the playerbase was not pushing for tiering action at all cost, it was not disagreeing either. Mainly it was disagreeing on the course of actions to take. That's why we have not discarded the option of using the next BDSPPL, its third iteration, as a playground for experimentation.
Our main objective is to begin a course of actions where we can reduce the overall disagreement without altering what makes BDSP OU an enjoyable metagame for everyonebut me. If we think all the previous mentioned mons could deserve to be on the chopping block, it seemed to us that Weavile has not been the most discussed recently and Garchomp never reached any consensus. On the other hand, Starmie and Manaphy seemed more suited as first focal points. Starmie because it has really warped team structures recently without dethroning Balance as the only proficient playstyle smh, and due to how close the original vote was back when it was suspected and given the environment around it having changed Manaphy's case feels worth revisiting. In any case, if any of them should be suspected, a thread would be opened on the topic with more in-depth explanations.
I will in the very near future share my personal opinion about what should look like the OU Suspect slot if it was meant to be in next BDSPPL in the format discussion thread.
Edit: the said post
Competitiveness is supposed to be an objective metric, unlike enjoyability, of a metagame. Truth is it is only the most objective metric that we have, thus we can work with. Competitiveness is in fact determined by the gathered opinions of a representative playerbase. You only need to read any suspect test thread to realize that competitiveness is still an opinion. I think BDSP competitiveness is decent but can be improved in regards on my own criterias.
At different stage of the two last years, 3 pokémon have been the topic of being potentially bannable:
Weavile, Garchomp and more recently Starmie. Manaphy also has been a topic as being potentially fine for the metagame mainly because it didn't seem a problem in last year BDSPPL II when it was featured in the first two weeks in the OU Suspect slot. Playerbase opinion is that none of them is deemed broken and I agree.My point of view lies elsewhere, and the further it progresses, the stronger my opinion becomes. I really have liked the creativity people have shown to find new ways to win. We don't need to look far back in this thread to find interesting innovations (s/o to my beloved AstilCodex ). Though, most if not all innovations have consolidated one and only playstyle: Balance. Chess masters have taken a lot of fun lately to grind any game by spreading status and chiping opposing mons bit by bit. Meanwhile, all other playstyles to different degrees have struggled to be proficient. There is no single culprit to this but multiple reasons that, aggregated, made the BDSP OU metagame quite unhealthy. Among them, Weavile, Garchomp and Starmie between else contributes to this and I don't think Manaphy would solve anything. On this point, I am open to develop my argument much more if asked to but I didn't want to make even longer what is already an essay.
That all being said, I and TyCarter ackowledged the fact that, if the playerbase was not pushing for tiering action at all cost, it was not disagreeing either. Mainly it was disagreeing on the course of actions to take. That's why we have not discarded the option of using the next BDSPPL, its third iteration, as a playground for experimentation.
Our main objective is to begin a course of actions where we can reduce the overall disagreement without altering what makes BDSP OU an enjoyable metagame for everyone
I will in the very near future share my personal opinion about what should look like the OU Suspect slot if it was meant to be in next BDSPPL in the format discussion thread.
Edit: the said post
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Ok so yes Imma do second post, following the Miltank one and trying to mix all of my thoughts before dropping the one in the VR with the noms, so I dont gotta explain everything there. Idk how I'm even gonna make this post cohesive at all. But lets just roll with it.
This is my final conclusions and experimentarion after getting Runner-Up in Winter Seasonal. Will provide showcasing if I have it. So, I encourage you to have a deep look at each:
Imma do it in order of my own priority
Labelling so you get the idea:
New set of already high viable Pokemon:
Certified Starmie Answer:
New low tiered Pokemon set to higher viability:
LETS START
1. Offensive Pivot Scizor
Scizor @ Metal Coat
Ability: Technician
EVs: 156 HP / 132 Atk / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- U-turn
- Roost
New set of already high viable Pokemon:
Certified Starmie Answer:
New low tiered Pokemon set to higher viability:
LETS START
1. Offensive Pivot Scizor
Scizor @ Metal Coat
Ability: Technician
EVs: 156 HP / 132 Atk / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- U-turn
- Roost
Shoutout to Skitty (Skittyrox) for coming up with this idea, even if this existed already, it wasnt really pulled off much since him and I use it in solid teams. This my personal spread of it. This Scizor set is meant to be a late game wincon while still offering some of the defensive capabilities that Scizor often does. This set takes advantage of the new trends in the meta, like Bulky Latias, the prevelance of Roserade, and offensively checking Alakazam and Weavile. Even if its frailer, it still use the bulk that Scizor has with its amazing typing. The speed lets it outspeed Crawdaunt and Modest Magnezone, also outpseeding Starmie after Para. And outspeeding 220 Scizors.
The Atk + Metal Coat is for this calc: 132+ Atk Metal Coat Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 210-248 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Allowing Scizor to break through Unaware Clefable with a 2hko after lefties + Protect lefties.
Showcasing:
Skitty vs Carter - Round 6 Winter Seasonal
Scizor performs its role of late game sweeper perfectly in this match, Carter is caught off guard by the offensive Scizor letting Clefable in, one turn of it SDing meant that Mew couldn't come in hard on it now, basically giving the game for Skitty. If Scizor was SD but 0Atk lefties, Clefable could have stalled or simply it wouldn't have killed Mew at say, +4.
Me vs Skitty - Round 7 Winter Seasonal
Scizor enters to tank a CB Outrage and SD on the switch, takes advantages of the Flame Body proc and SD on the Lucario, Bullet Punch kills Lucario at -1 from 78% and cleans from there.
2. Specially Defensive Mew
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 236 HP / 236 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Roost
- Volt Switch / Flamethrower
- Toxic / Defog / Stealth Rock
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 236 HP / 236 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Roost
- Volt Switch / Flamethrower
- Toxic / Defog / Stealth Rock
Mew is a top mon in my opinion right now, youll see where I rank it in my VR noms. Mew is a fantastic specially defensive wall and pivot that isnt passive and performs best on balanced/BO teams. This guy it meant to blanket potent special attacking threats like Latias, Starmie, Heatran (if Volt Switch), Nidoking Magnezone. Also blanketing and 1v1ing, Rotom-Wash (watch out for Trick), Togekiss, Roserade, Clefable (With Toxic), Tangrowth while also forcing out / not letting common Pokemon to stay in like Scizor, Gliscor, Garchomp. etc.
Mew is customizable to your team needs. It can be the rocker or removal, pivot or toxic spreader. And it performs every single role very well. Its a fantastic tool and asset to have in your team that imo its a staple for balance and just a relevant as say Clefable in the builder right now.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Mew: 185-218 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Ofc the next hit isn't Analytic boosted so you always live two.
Showcasing:
IgiveUp vs Banbadoro - Round 6 Seasonal
IgiveUp vs Seraphz - Round 8 Seasonal
IgiveUp performs Mew in this team as his SpDef wall and rock setter, and its used in both replays to come on Defensive and offensive Mie while keeping up Rocks and using Volt Switch to pivot out.
Me vs Tbolt - Round 6 Seasonal
FlameTox Mew has an insanely good MU vs Tbolt team, being able to wall both Nidoking and Starmie, Toxic Clef and 1v1ing Rotom while having Flame for Scizor. It basically 6-0d Tbolt and his team was unprepared for this set.
3. 3-Atks Roost Mew
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 236 HP / 56 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Roost
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 236 HP / 56 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Roost
This Mew set its kinda a mix of the Spdef Mew and the MU Mew set, taking advantage of Mews great movepool, pivoting capability and solid bulk and Speed tier. BeamFlame picks out Scizor, Gliscor, Garchomp, Magnezone, Grass types in general, and Volt switch hits water types for solid damage. Speed is for outspeeding base 90s so Jolly Lucario, Roserade, Rotom-Wash and below. This set is pretty effective to break balance and having a overall great foundation mon.
Banbadoro vs Me - Round 8 Seasonal
Shoutout to Banbadoro who came up with this set and I liked it a lot and took it to build for R9. Idk your spread but this is mine. In this game I saw Volt switch + Ice beam so I assumed no Fire move and stayed in with Scizor, huge mistake and I got punished. Then I thought this was an AoA Mew but they reveal Roost mid-game. It almost made the comeback after a Hydro miss, really cool set.
Me vs Baddy - Round 9 Seasonal
The core of Gliscor Scizor Tangrowth gets completely negated by this mew, Crawdaunt and Weavile cant come in as the former gets Volt on and Weav can be hit with a Flamethrower, Baddy has to resort to use Defensive Ape and the Mew just wins on its own.
Me vs Seraphz - Round 9 Seasonal
Scouting for a Mew set is really tough, as in the first battle, this set lures for it not having a fire move. KOing Scizor and having a free way into all of Seraphz team. Nothing is faster and it just gets free hits, effectively winning the game too.
4. Spdef MGuard Clef
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Thunder Wave / Calm Mind / Encore
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Thunder Wave / Calm Mind / Encore
This Clefable set is meant to gets full use of its typing and special bulk to become a special wall and sponge well, special hits. This set came up in an urge to find something that wasn't punished by hazards while switching in on Offensive Latias, Alakazam and most importantly, Starmie. Can also sponge in VS Togekiss, Washtom and Mew if need be, and also isn't completely squishy in the Physical side either. Thunder Wave is my way to go with this set cuz it cripples said special threats for the rest of the game, but Calm Mind can be an option as you would outsetup them.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You are not taking any hazards or burn damage, so this Clef set always beats Starmie no matter what. You dont even gotta Protect to be out of the next hydro.
Edit: thx to Tbolt for reminding me to slot Encore as a possible 4th slot.
Showcasing:
Me vs Skitty - Round 7 Seasonal
Cannot seem to find the replay I want but I brought it here and it could effectively blanket zam and spread a T-wave on raptor while Wishing comfortably. I wanna move on cuz I have a lot more to show but trust me on this one. Ive used it a shit on of times vs Skitty (Skittyrox) he can confirm is good.
5. Snorlax
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Slam / Facade
- Sleep Talk / Earthquake / Gastro Acid
- Curse
- Rest
With the thrive of balance, players have come to find out new ways to play around Starmie and Heatran, Snorlax if im not mistaken started as a Boopi_Bappi idea. Shoutouts fren, and other players have gotten into this trend, like me, Skitty and IgiveUp who have performed Snorlax in the seasonal. Snorlax performs as a specially defensive wall that servers as a blanket for special hits but also acts as a very scary wincon. BO teams and fat cores struggles with it only clicking Curse once, it has fantastic stat distribution and it has 100% WR in this seasonal being used 4 times at least (it was brought in previous rounds where replays werent mandatory, Igiveup and boopi brought them) and I seriously think this mon should be ranked way higher.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Slam / Facade
- Sleep Talk / Earthquake / Gastro Acid
- Curse
- Rest
Showcasing:
IgiveUp vs Baddy - Round 7 Seasonal
Me vs Banbadoro - Round 8 Seasonal (Set 1)
Me vs Banbadoro - Round 8 Seasonal (Set 2)
Not explaining just showing replays where Snorlax puts in work against common high tiered mons and its a wincon that makes progress mid and or late game (Sorry banba you just got Lax'd the most)
6. Choiced Lucario
Lucario @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Justified / Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Crunch
- Copycat / Extreme Speed
Lucario @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Justified / Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Crunch
- Copycat / Extreme Speed
Choiced Lucario has exceed in now Bulky offense teams which prefer to run this as a breaker or a revenge killer. Even if the roles of a Scarfed and CB set are different, i put them in the same slot to explain how Lucario has made its way into compositions that aren't HO. Lucario has such amazing dual STAB combination that in can fit on Bulky Offense or Offense just fine. CC is very spammable when Clefable its scared to come in, Crunch hits Latias and Starmie for solid damage. CB prefers Extreme speed, whereas Copycat its a good alternative for combining with U-turn users like Scizor and Gliscor. You can also slot Sleep Talk there if u are afraid or Rose for sure.
Showcasing:
Skitty vs Me - Round 7 Seasonal
Me vs Tbolt - Round 6 Seasonal
Me vs Baddy - Round 9 Seasonal
Me vs Scarf Kricketune - Round 3 Seasonal (G2 on my YT vid)
All these replays just show Lucario morbing. Not expecting a Choice Item and getting a wall down or destroying late game. Lucario is the goat.
7. Miltank
MommyMilkers (Miltank) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Milk Drink
- Earthquake
- Body Slam / Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell / Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock
Redirecting to my previous article for references.
8. Do-Nothing Latias
Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 60 SpD / 196 Spe or just 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam / Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt / Defog
- Recover
- Thunder Wave / Defog
MommyMilkers (Miltank) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Milk Drink
- Earthquake
- Body Slam / Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell / Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock
Redirecting to my previous article for references.
8. Do-Nothing Latias
Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 60 SpD / 196 Spe or just 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam / Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt / Defog
- Recover
- Thunder Wave / Defog
Ahh... my favorite Latias set, the one that gives everything free turns. But does it? Latias is a great blanket as its typing allows it to basically T-wave everything, and can potentially Defog and keep common threats on check thanks to its high speed tier and just good old reliable bulk. Its not a guaranteed Starmie answer as Analytic Ice Beams ofc hurts a lot. But it can come in on it for sure and without rocks it does live 2 always. I run enough speed for Garchomp tho that leads being slower than Infernape and opposing Latias, but nonetheless you are checking Ape just fine and you aren't killing Lati back so for me is fine having that extra special bulk
There's a shit ton of players who have perform this I just wanted to slot it here because its a trend, its there, be ready and aware. Because at 4am when u wake up and hungry, you go to the fridge and you hear someone whispering. You may have encountered ... Do-Nothing Latias.
9. Spdef Celebi
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 236 HP / 236 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain / Leaf Storm / Grass Knot
- Recover
- Thunder Wave / Leech Seed / Psychic / Future Sight / U-turn / Stealth Rock / Perish Song / Heal Bell / Healing Wish
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 236 HP / 236 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain / Leaf Storm / Grass Knot
- Recover
- Thunder Wave / Leech Seed / Psychic / Future Sight / U-turn / Stealth Rock / Perish Song / Heal Bell / Healing Wish
Ok so as you can see, Celebi has such a versatile movepool to choose on its 2 other slots that I would only consider Grass move + Recover mandatory. Its a good asset for sure to have and the best set for it imo. Scarf Celebi doesn't provide much now in the meta whereas Spdef Celebi is a great wall for again, special threats like Latias, Starmie and Alakazam, while also completely negating Rotom-Wash, coming on Clefable and crippling it. Coming on Milo, even Magnezone, Mew, ofc Suicune and others.. I like Grass Knot because it hits every water type hard without having a negative effect except Rotom, and rotom u would beat anyway. Leech Seed I think is huge to punish Heatran and 1v1ing Latias and Blissey. You can find your best moves to run on this guy and roll with it. Solid mon for sure.
Showcasing:
Skitty vs Carter - Round 6 Seasonal
This guy has been used in a lot of other battles like the circuit playoffs finals last year (nice crit btw) but this is the one I remember. Celebi performs as the Special wall of skitty negating Raikou of ever sweeping and tanking hits from MU Mew.
10. 3atk Slack Off Ape
Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Slack Off
Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Slack Off
Again huge shoutout to Skitty (Skittyrox) for bringing this set out. Infernape as popped out again as a fantastic breaker of common balance and fat cores. But the problem of it is its frailness and how it gets worn down so easily by hazards and Life orb Damage. However, LO Infernape is such a threat that will forces switches as the fact that it can switch moves will make u pivot around it. Letting Slack off come into play. Slack off over Rocks makes Infernape last longer in those 50+ games and still there as a breaker that its harder to deal with. Amazing call by Skitty.
Showcasing:
Skitty vs IgiveUp - Round 3 Seasonal (I believe so. My YT vid)
I think by far the best display of this set was in the G2 of this MU. Infernape gets one Slack Off and then its impossible to wall for IgiveUp fat squad. Forming an amazing Voltturn combo with Washtom, like in old days.
11-12. Specs and Spdef Washtom
| Rotom-Wash @ Choice Specs Ability: Levitate EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Volt Switch - Hydro Pump - Trick - Nasty Plot / Thunderbolt | Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers Ability: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 248 SpD / 8 Spe Calm Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Volt Switch - Hydro Pump - Discharge / Rest / Thunder Wave - Protect / Sleep Talk / Thunder Wave |
Ok so let me get this straight, STOP USING PHYS DEF, PHYS DEF SUCKS (Well it doesnt suck but its the worst set by far rn imo). Ok, now moving on. Specs Washtom is such a fantastic wallbreaker. It can easily disguise itself as a Scarf set and demolish a team that doesn't have a Roserade, or Spdef Celebi or sometimes Do-nothing Latias, but none of them except Rose appreciate getting tricked. It tricks Blissey / Snorlax just as Scarf would do. And nothing else likes to switch into Specs Boosted Hydros, 2shoting even Spdef Mew with rocks, doing like 90% to chomp. Tbolt is a great asset to just bypass bulky waters such as opposing Rotom-Wash, Milotic and such. If you dont wanna trick which unless you see an aforementioned mon you most likely wont do.
Regarding Spdef Washtom, its def a good mon. A bulky pivot that fits better the current meta trends imo. Its a great para spreader as no Ground wants to come in on it. Also it disguises as phys def so Chomp can be afraid of it. And ofc it helps with the demon that is Starmie.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psychic vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 142-169 (46.7 - 55.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If you do come on this situation of them having Psychic, this is how much you are taking. Psychic has started to pop off in Offensive mie sets due to this guy specifically, thats why I like Protect / Resttalk. Cuz it lets u come in more consistently. Ofc you dont get 2hkod cuz the next Psychic aint killing you. And you click T-wave / Discharge. Thats how you deal with Starmie. Do not Volt Switch.
Showcasing:
Me vs Banbadoro - Round 8 Seasonal (Miltank game)
This is the same Miltank game is just a great display of Specs Rotom, 2hkoing opposing Rotom with Hydro, doing 90% to Chomp and breaking through Spdef Scizor. Basically winning + Miltank when Starmie got paralyzed.
Didn't find any good Spdef Rotom showcasing. But source: Trust frfr
13. No missing Zam
Alakazam @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Encore / Recover
Alakazam @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Encore / Recover
Ok this is something I've thought of but saw Mada and Oblivion Wing bring so shoutout to them. Even though Seraphz was indeed running Focus Blast, I wonder. What do u need Focus Blast for? You are almost never clicking it, Weavile is not coming hard in, Ttar doesnt exists. You can Psyshock Blissey. And more importantly, you just need to put Scizor and Heatran on +2 ShadowBall, just having a neutral hit on steels is enough when boosted. This mon having its 4th slot free with its speed tier and access to Encore, and it longer games, even with the frailness of Zam, having Recover, its huge. I recommend trying runnning Zam with no Focus Blast and let a utility move perform it a lot better.
Showcasing:
Oblivion Wing vs IgiveUp - Round 8 Seasonal
Seraphz pulls out the Encore on Blissey and forces it out, it would have won inmediately if it didnt got para and come hard on a Scald. But still put in a massive amount of work allowing Seraphz to take this game.
Mada vs Me - Round 8 Seasonal
So Mada basically destroyed me in the endgame with NP Recover zam cuz I couldnt do anything with my team, everything was slower and unfort my Clef was rocks so univested Moonblast just gets pp stalled.
14. Shuca Willo Heatran
Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Will-O-Wisp
Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Will-O-Wisp
So the idea behind this set is basically luring Ground types into come hard on it and getting inmediately punished by Will-O-Wisp, which is a super underrated move on Heatran btw, and by Ground types I mean Garchomp and especially Gliscor if it hasnt activated Toxic Orb, getting the burn on Gliscor is basically a useless Gliscor and a W for Heatran. Shuca Berry is more for when they are burnt you can stay in since healthy Garchomp kills you through Shuca anyway, and its more too for the Heatran mirror, Flash Fire meaning you can come comfortably on Heatran and at worst they EP on your shuca. Still, it wont be expected since Flame Body is so common now.
Showcasing:
Me vs Banbadoro - Seasonal Round 8 (Set 2)
So this is the only time I brought this, thats why its low on priority. It didn't do what it was supposed to and it missed a Willo on Scizor Lmao. But in any case, we build this squad with my man Skitty and came up with this set.
15. Bulky Espeon
Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic / Stored Power
- Wish / Morning Sun
- Protect / Shadow Ball
- Yawn / Calm Mind
Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic / Stored Power
- Wish / Morning Sun
- Protect / Shadow Ball
- Yawn / Calm Mind
Ok hear me out on this one, in our current metagame. We have 5 consistent removal options. This being, Gliscor, Starmie, Scizor, Latias and Mew. Slotting Defog is really annoying and it really hurts to not have another move especially in the latter 3 mentioned. In the urge of finding a way of dealing with Roserade stack and also fat/stall. Espeon came into mind. Why Espeon over Xatu? You might ask, well, Xatu sucks. Its bulk its actually worse than Espeon (Xatu is 65/70/70 and Espeon 65/60/95) and being flying just makes it worst, and its slower. Espeon 110 speed tier makes it actually use its utility better. Espeon performs as a switch on common hazard setters that struggle to punish it thanks to Magic Bounce. CM sets 1v1 Heatran as you cannot taunt it. Letting Espeon Recover with either Wish or Morning Sun forever, it comes on Roserade quite nicely, and on other Rockers / status spreaders like Blissey, Clefable, Mew, Skarmory, Celebi and Do-Nothing Latias.
Unfortunately the showcase I had of Xilefi getting destroyed on his RoseCune balance by Espeon is lost in the archive. It was a rather old replay yes but Rose stack and fat still as relevant so this is a good option you can think of putting in your team. It also allows Scizor to freely run SD which is very appreciated.
16-17 Unaware and Water Absorb Quagsire
| Quagsire @ Leftovers Ability: Unaware EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Relaxed Nature - Scald / Counter / Curse - Toxic - Recover - Earthquake | Quagsire @ Leftovers Ability: Water Absorb EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD Sassy Nature - Scald / Haze / Yawn - Toxic - Recover - Earthquake |
Gastrodon and Swampert fucking sucks, let me introduce you to the only good Water/Ground type in the tier, that performs the role of those fake mons a lot better. (Except SR pert but pert is dogshit). Ofc both of this sets perform completely different roles.
Phys def Unaware is actually meant to take on the likes of Garchomp, Infernape, Lucario, Azumarill, SD Scizor, etc. Is basically wins VS most HO compositions on its own, and for those Pokemon in particular its better than Unaware Clefable, ofc this doesnt provide the late game wincon and wish support, but it does have Toxic, being of the few good Toxic users in the tier. (With Mew and Nidoking, yes Nidoking, but thats for future references).
Spdef Water Absorb completely shiftes the pool of Pokemon Quagsire is supposed to come into, this being well, Water types such as Rotom-Wash, Starmie, Milotic. And special threats like Heatran, Magnezone, Mew, Nidoking, and Suicune (If Haze/Yawn). Quagsire ofc puts on a timer every mon here with toxic and just takes on Heatran and Magnezone with its typing. Dont Toxic Mew lol. And heres a proof of its special bulk being actually good.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Next one doesnt kill you.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 175-208 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Just pair this with a good removal and you are good to go.
18. Rotom-Heat
Rotom-Heat @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Nasty Plot
- Trick
Rotom-Heat @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Nasty Plot
- Trick
I think this mon is underrated in how it can be a good alternative to Rotom-Wash or Mow (Which isnt as appealing now tbh cuz Grass types are so good, better than it). Rotom Heat just its an electric type that beats Grass types and its inmune to EQ so its also free on Gliscor too. Its actually better into the fat compositions of Clef Blissey Growth Gliscor. etc. The only problem is being weak to rocks, but it gets free setups on Clef and Heatran which run Flame Body anyways. And your Water type just dont wanna take a Volt Switch, this is obviously worse VS offensive teams that have Craw/Azu as you get AJ. But considering it bringing it when you want to take out that Rose/Celebi/Growth in your way. Its harder to build a team without Heatran, but it can pay off, especially your fire type revenging Starmie (if Scarf) is quite nice.
I dont have a replay showcasing but I was going to load it on G3 vs igiveuponaname and it never happened unfort. But heres the team if you are interested, it was meant to destroy stall.
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THANKFUCK IM DONE OK umm imma use this post to refer to a future post coming that will be VR nominations and also to the format discussion of BDSPPL.
Regarding Starmie, as you may have seen, we have 7 , 8 with Blissey. So options for Starmie you do have, offensively and defensively.
See ya ^^
THANK
Regarding Starmie, as you may have seen, we have 7
, 8 with Blissey. So options for Starmie you do have, offensively and defensively.See ya ^^
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SpDef Rotom-W is a great set, though I personally prefer a spread of 248 HP / 52 SpA / 200 SpD / 8 Spe (also with a Calm nature) so that you can break +1 Suicune's Substitute with Volt Switch. It also just generally improves its damage output against most things. I also very much still like Will-O-Wisp on this set, as Rotom is such a great spreader of burns since Fire-types don't like switching in on it thanks to the STAB Hydro Pump and theburn can still shore up its uninvested physical bulk.
Edit: other comments
10. 3atk Slack Off ApeAgain huge shoutout to Skitty (Skittyrox) for bringing this set out. Infernape as popped out again as a fantastic breaker of common balance and fat cores. But the problem of it is its frailness and how it gets worn down so easily by hazards and Life orb Damage. However, LO Infernape is such a threat that will forces switches as the fact that it can switch moves will make u pivot around it. Letting Slack off come into play. Slack off over Rocks makes Infernape last longer in those 50+ games and still there as a breaker that its harder to deal with. Amazing call by Skitty.
Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Slack Off
Slack Off on mixed Infernape was a known quantity a year prior to this. The main difference on this set versus the one I ran is that this is more physically oriented with U-turn and max Attack, whereas the one I ran is more specially oriented, with Fire Blast instead of Overheat, Grass Knot, and max Special Attack.
6. Choiced Lucario
Lucario @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Justified / Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Crunch
- Copycat / Extreme Speed
Choiced Lucario has exceed in now Bulky offense teams which prefer to run this as a breaker or a revenge killer. Even if the roles of a Scarfed and CB set are different, i put them in the same slot to explain how Lucario has made its way into compositions that aren't HO. Lucario has such amazing dual STAB combination that in can fit on Bulky Offense or Offense just fine. CC is very spammable when Clefable its scared to come in, Crunch hits Latias and Starmie for solid damage. CB prefers Extreme speed, whereas Copycat its a good alternative for combining with U-turn users like Scizor and Gliscor. You can also slot Sleep Talk there if u are afraid or Rose for sure.
Can vouch for Scarf Copycat Lucario's ability to pair well with switch move-using teammates and hazards (also peep Feraligatr being ass).
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yoinking this from the other thread real quick since it gives me a reason to talk about a Mismagius set that I think can be cool on occasionTaunt Mismagius
A thing that I noticed was that many Blissey in this tier can't actually hurt Mismagius, since, because Gengar isn't in the tier, a coverage move to hit Ghost-types isn't necessary. However, if you use Taunt with Mismagius, then it kinda just sits there. I wasn't sure what the best way to exploit this was, but I tried Calm Mind to set up and take advantage of Mismagius's teammates; Nasty Plot is just better, though, since it requires fewer turns to become actually threatening.
Mismagius @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 28 Def / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
Like Tbolt said the vast majority of Blissey in this tier cant do any damage to Mismagius at all leaving them to instead click Thunder Wave and cripple them with paralysis. With Taunt you shut down that as an option but you're still left unable to harm the Blissey, but when paired with hazards you can use this set to wear down Blissey with Will-O-Wisp cutting off Blissey's leftovers recovery and Pain Split shredding through its massive hp stat early on, and with them being unable to heal thanks to Taunt you can effectively break through Blissey without being able to inflict any direct damage towards it.
It's a cool set in my eyes though it does come with its downsides. For starters it really only fits well on fatter Skarmory based hazard stack teams, in particular ones that desperately want to keep hazards up in the face of Starmie and would thus need Mismagius's Rapid Spin blocking capabilities. Without spikes the value of spin blocking and the pressure put on Blissey by this set decrease dramatically which makes it far less viable to run on other team styles. Another issue is a bit more well known when it comes to Mismagius but it is poor defensively even with hp investment and without any sort of boosting move or item its damage output is underwhelming to say the least. Heatran also sits on this set hard.
Like I've said already, I think it's a cool set. It can work well against slower teams that rely on Blissey as their special check but it is also very limited in what kinds of teams it can be run on and needs to be piloted properly in order to get the most out of it.