I agree. Blaze can run a FAR better SD set, but Infernape still runs a very strong Nasty Plot set
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Blaziken
- Thread starter manav95
- Start date
I still prefer Infernape. It has more speed off the bat, and Close Combat is more reliable than Hi Jump Kick. If you undervalue those two things, perhaps you should try playing with Infernape and notice how he outspeeds and forces out tons of shit that would otherwise outspeed and KO Blaze.
On the other hand, if Blaziken can get a single free turn (oh hey Nattorei everywhere), then it's faster than Infernape. Infernape is a better revenge killer and a somewhat better special sweeper thanks to NP and a better special movepool, but I'd choose Blaziken for physical or mixed sweeping any day.
I've always advocated using Infernape as a lead or scarf user.
HJK's accuracy is hardly ever an issue for me, and with Blaziken resisting a few priorities, I like keeping his defenses intact.
And Infernape does outspeed quite a bit, I'll admit that, at least initially. Salamence, Volcarona, Garchomp, etc, are all viable threats to outspeed, but I nearly always pack a Garchomp (usually scarved) who will take care of these for me. Outside of that role, Blaziken will find the same set up opportunities and gives more payoff in the long run, IMO.
Regarding Nasty Plot, I've said it before and I'll say it again - it doesn't really "differentiate" Infernape all that much because when you break it down, it is equivalent to using SD. Fire Blast = Flare Blitz, CC = Focus Blast, and the coverage move is variable. Blaziken's SD set is consistently stronger than both Infernape's set-up sets, and KOs the same targets with the exception of Slowbro (there may be one or two more, but these are offset by the things Blaze outruns after setting up, including Starmie, the Lati twins, Gengar, and the Musketeers, all of which can cause Nape some issues).
I don't see why everyone assumes I'm referring to accuracy when talking about reliability. The fact that a ghost can switch in or a random Protect costs you 50% of your health is huge. Meanwhile, Infernape can spam Close Combat, not giving a shit if you switch in Burungeru because of the entry hazard damage it might be taking and finishing it with Grass Knot.
I never run a set up move on Infernape. U-turn / Fire Blast / Close Combat / Stone Edge help differentiate it from Blaziken while breaking walls. There is no replacement for that. Blaziken is obviously the better set up sweeper (due to Speed Boost; if you are using a set up move why not get +1 speed?) but that's not the argument at hand.
I never run a set up move on Infernape. U-turn / Fire Blast / Close Combat / Stone Edge help differentiate it from Blaziken while breaking walls. There is no replacement for that. Blaziken is obviously the better set up sweeper (due to Speed Boost; if you are using a set up move why not get +1 speed?) but that's not the argument at hand.
Prediction, especially with Team Preview. If you know they're going to Protect or switch to a ghost, that's a free turn of set up. Half the time I face a team with Burungeru, I end up sweeping entirely because of that, because apparently nobody realizes that Blaziken can use Shadow Claw.
^Pretty much that. If I have the sun up and blaziken in, and my opponent switches in either jellicient or gliscor, then it's gg. Random pokemon such as Blissey switching in just tells me to use another move instead of hi jump kick. The only time this isn't safe is when I'm facing torment tran, who usually doesn't carry earth power anyway.
when using SD blaziken i always find myself spamming flare blitz instead of HJK. its just too dangerous to use until you make sure to remove all ghosts on the enemy team and i know no ghost capable of surviving a +2 flare blitz\shadow claw, and by the time i allow myself to use HJK the enemy team is damaged enough to be dealt with without the use of HJK.
Blaziken's really better used as a late-game sweeper anyway, when you know your opponent's play style and have taken out or weakened its counters (for example, if I'm running Blaze Kick over Flare Blitz, I need to be sure to take care of Gliscor first).
It is really easy to see if they have a ghost thanks to team preview, and prediction goes both ways. If they can predict a HJK, I can predict their ghost and simply SD a second time or go for the stone edge.
And as noted, SDKen is better just as lategane begins, much like SDLuke last gen. Unless it is Mixken of course.
And as noted, SDKen is better just as lategane begins, much like SDLuke last gen. Unless it is Mixken of course.
If high jumP kick is predicted that much would it be worth it to not run it at all and run like flare blitz/swords dance/shadow claw/ stone edge
exactly. Though I use him in the sun, where he does OHKO tentacruel with flare blitz. So yeah, retardedly strong regardless and usually takes down 3-4 pokemon with it.
That doesn't get very good coverage, though; you're going to have a hard time getting through most fire resists, particularly bulky waters. Shadow Claw doesn't hit most things very hard and Fire/Rock gets a lot of redundant coverage. Fire would actually be the better STAB to drop, since both Fighting/Rock and Fighting/Ghost are good combinations.
Yeah, Blaze works well as a late game sweeper as everyone has said. He'll be strong enough to live through priority hits (in the sun, he can tank an azumarill aqua jet) and his raw power can easily mop up weakened teams. Admittedly, I ignore intelligence and throw out Blaziken early game, doing as much damage as I possibly can before getting him out of there. Then I use either a shaymin, doredia, latias, or jirachi to healing wish back into blaziken late game. Eventually it got to the point where Blaziken was the only sweeper on the team, and the victories netted from him were oh so satisfying.
Now, I've gone back to using him to make room for Venusaur. The combined resistances to all priority attacks in the game (save for e-speed, quick attack, and shadow sneak) are nice, but the shared weaknesses to psychic and flying are crippling at times.
Now, I've gone back to using him to make room for Venusaur. The combined resistances to all priority attacks in the game (save for e-speed, quick attack, and shadow sneak) are nice, but the shared weaknesses to psychic and flying are crippling at times.
and they would probably work real well on a sun team seing as blazikens fire attack gets an extra boost, water is weakend, and venesaur has chlorophyl now
So yesterday, I decided to be experiment and slapped hidden power ice on blaziken over shadow claw. Jellicient is still ohko'd by +2 Blaze kick in the sun, and offensive latios and latias are ohko'd by the hi jump kick anyway. With a JOLLY nature, gliscor is taking 91% minimum from the hp ice, so I thought, "why not?"
In the very first match I tried this in, I was walled by a shandera. Before I take this as a sign and go back to using shadow claw/stone edge, can anyone tell me if it's worth using hp ice for anything other than gliscor?
In the very first match I tried this in, I was walled by a shandera. Before I take this as a sign and go back to using shadow claw/stone edge, can anyone tell me if it's worth using hp ice for anything other than gliscor?
I don't think Blaziken can worth staying in on any dragon except Haxorus and Hydreigon...
Mostly since Haxorus is outsped and Hydreigon has a typing disadvantage. IMO HP Ice seems pointless, but it should still be put there, since it allows for Blaziken to kill Gliscor.
What are the calcs for non -SpA nature HP Ice on Gliscor?
Mostly since Haxorus is outsped and Hydreigon has a typing disadvantage. IMO HP Ice seems pointless, but it should still be put there, since it allows for Blaziken to kill Gliscor.
What are the calcs for non -SpA nature HP Ice on Gliscor?
Pointless? Hardly. On a Swords Dance set, it isn't needed, but the mixed set can make good use of it. It hits the Lati twins, Mence, Garchomp, Landorus, Dragonite, etc. Blaziken can 2hko most of those on the switch but it can't OHKO them all, which HP Ice helps with. Since it lessens the need for Stone Edge, you can run Protect as well, which is nice.
Garchomp dies to HJK, and most of the others die if you have the appropriate coverage move. Possibly not Multi Scale Dragonite, but I haven't done the calcs, and that's not an issue with SR support.
If you're adding HP Ice and removing Stone Edge, how does that possibly free up a slot for Protect?
Here's my Blaziken set of choice, it's basically unstoppable on a Drought team.
Blaziken @ Life Orb
Adamant, 252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
-HJK
-Flare Blitz
-Stone Edge
-Protect
Basically, it's really hard to get a SD boost when using Blaziken because it's hard to get the first Speed Boost. With Protect, you can guaranteed get one (usually two) boosts and start smashing walls. In my opinion, Blaziken's better as a wall breaker than a sweeper, leave the sweeping to something else. If you predict a counter, you will usually 2KO anything not named Slowbro. HJK is your main attack because of the high power and no recoil, but if Team Preview shows a ghost I will usually Flare Blitz or Stone Edge, depending on how bulky the Ghost is. Jellicent will lose if it comes in on a Stone Edge, Gengar cannot take a hit at all, and Dusclops is so rare that it's barely a factor. Not many common pokemon can beat this set, and it usually dies to recoil taking out 2 or 3 pokemon.
Politoed takes a crapton from HJK, Tyranitar lol, and Hippowdon I would never stay in on.
Blaziken @ Life Orb
Adamant, 252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
-HJK
-Flare Blitz
-Stone Edge
-Protect
Basically, it's really hard to get a SD boost when using Blaziken because it's hard to get the first Speed Boost. With Protect, you can guaranteed get one (usually two) boosts and start smashing walls. In my opinion, Blaziken's better as a wall breaker than a sweeper, leave the sweeping to something else. If you predict a counter, you will usually 2KO anything not named Slowbro. HJK is your main attack because of the high power and no recoil, but if Team Preview shows a ghost I will usually Flare Blitz or Stone Edge, depending on how bulky the Ghost is. Jellicent will lose if it comes in on a Stone Edge, Gengar cannot take a hit at all, and Dusclops is so rare that it's barely a factor. Not many common pokemon can beat this set, and it usually dies to recoil taking out 2 or 3 pokemon.
Politoed takes a crapton from HJK, Tyranitar lol, and Hippowdon I would never stay in on.
Fire Blast / Hi Jump Kick / HP Ice / Protect.
HP Ice would take the place of HP Electric, and since it already covers Mence and Nite, Stone Edge isn't as necessary. Chandelure and Gyara are relatively rare this gen, and Protect allows you to revenge much more prominent threats such as SDGarchomp and LOTerakion.
I'm not really sure why you would use this over the mixed set or SD set. Blaziken is an excellent sweeper, I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Nabbing the SD isn't really that difficult either because Blaziken forces out quite a bit, and the added power under drought allows it to wreck crazy stuff like Max/Max Bold Suicune and Jellicent. SD > Protect on physical Ken, Protect should really only be run on HP Ice Mixken (HP Electric MixKen will want Stone Edge).
What is the ideal spread for Blaziken? I'm seeing two builds now, one running 60 Att /252 SpA /196 Spd and another running 80 Atk / 200 SpA / 228 Spd which begs the question which speed tier I should want to hit.