SPOILERS! Brilliant Diamond & Shining Pearl Data Dumps

Maybe not the place to talk about it, but I find it extremely frustrating that BDSP Thanos snapped the compatability of TM06 Toxic. I know that it still remains compatible on all Pokémon (except VGC formats), but it still comes across as a lazy choice instead of trying to balance it with the tools they already have present in game.

If they wanted to remove it almost completely to desensitize degenerate stall plays, I don't see why they wouldn't make it more of a high risk high reward move with a sinister downside. If they wanted to make it "make sense" by having only a handful of relevant Poison/Poison-adjacent Pokémon learn it, then I think it's a bit too late for that.

My take on how the move should work takes both of those points in mind.

I think Toxic should be re-made available to all Pokémon who could previously learn it, but it should be brought back down to it's previous 85% accuracy (or even down to 70%). Furthermore, if the user's Toxic should miss the opponent, I think it should badly Poison the user. This sounds awful, and would almost completely decensitize the usage for Pokémon like Landorus-T or Hippowdon, but it would offer some unique interactions.


Firstly, it would be a nice mirror to how Toxic always hits when used by a Poison type. Otherwise, Steel types would still be unaffected, albeit the lower accuracy would balance the issue a bit more.

The poster children of stall and serial Toxic usersChansey and Blissey wouldn't suffer too badly since they have Natural Cure as their primary ability and would be able to switch out to remove the harm done to themselves. Other Pokémon with Natural Cure like Altaria who often use Toxic would also share this unique interaction and be more favorable as Toxic spreaders in their respective tiers.

Mentioning those 3 prior Pokémon reminded me that they all have access to either Heal Bell or Aromatherapy, as do other great Pokémon like Clefable or Mew. Clerics could become a bit more of a niche in consequence to players wanting to use Toxic on mons like Lando and Hippo.

Clefable amongst others also has Magic Guard to avoid damage completely.

Another fun interaction would be Poison Heal Breloom or Gliscor holding an item other than Toxic Orb to benefit from either poisoning the target, getting poisoned by missing and therefore healing passively, and also holding a viable/non-wasted hold item like Lefties or HDB.

Marvel Scale Pokémon like Milotic and (Eviolite) Dragonair could also benefit from accidentally being poisoned, though to a lesser extent than Breloom and Gliscor.


None of these interactions make the move better than it currently is, and that isn't the point. The side effect of badly poisoning yourself will almost never be good, but as a way to desensitize the move as a whole, I think it works and it still provides room for some Pokémon to use the move either completely or almost completely unhindered.
I'm sorry not to add anything relevant after what you just said, but I had to respond to say that it's actually a really good idea, and I'd like to see that. Apart from that, you're forgetting that they can just make it so only Pokemon captured in Galar and onward can be transfered, in future game, thus removing compatibility with old CT spreading like Toxic. I don't think that's a good play, but that's one play.
 
I'd just point you that Toxic isn't a first for this, other moves have appeared and disappeared as far as compatibility goes between generation (notably, mostly-Tutor-specific moves like Tailwind and Knock Off come and go, and notably both are absent this generation).

You'd be used to this if you ever played the actual competitive format instead of the unsupported ripoff that Smogon is.
6v6 singles doesn't exist. 6v6 doubles also doesn't exist.

The only competitive scenario is 4v4 doubles and 3v3 singles with generation-specific rules (aka, no transfer moves, ever).*
And "cutting" former TMs from movesets isn't new, someone probably remembers how Mega Kangaskhan went from broken to barely viable in a single Power Up Punch.


edit: * = Outside of the very rare occasional special event where they allow old generation pokemon or normally unallowed mythicals for the special vgc mode.
I 100% understand what you're saying, amd I'm familiar with VGC and the restrictions. But what you're saying isn't entirely true. Moves like Tailwind, SR, Defog, the Elemental Punches, Roost, and Knock Off are examples of moves that have all been absent from certain games that didn't use them as TMs or tutor moves. XY is an example. Blaziken was in XY and couldn't learn Thunder Punch or Knock Off naturally in these games, and could only learn them in Gen 6 when ORAS reintroduced them as move tutors. For purpose sake, we won't be talking about transferring mons from previous gens, since we should all be well aware that these mons will most likely be able to us Toxic if taught in previous gens.

The difference with Toxic is that is is back as a TM, and almost all previous users are unable to learn it via TM. As far as I'm aware, we have never had an instance where a previous TM or tutor move was reinstated in the game and a Pokémon who was able to learn it before is no longer able to.

Let's look at SWSH. SWSH removed Toxic from the TM/TR pool, which effectively neutered it's availability without transfer. It just wasn't in the game, and this example is more in line with what you're talking about.

In BDSP, Toxic is back (like we've seen with old tutor moves), but I'm going to reiterate that with it being back, the majority of Pokemon that used to be able to learn it simply CANNOT be taught it via TM anymore.


*someone referenced some Gen 1 and 2 inconsistencies that I forgot like Reflect, for example. Just wanted to add this so nobody else comments about it
 
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Has anyone determined the rate at which underground pokemon spawn w egg moves?

Want to hunt for a Roselia/Budew with extrasensory for play through but don’t want to waste toooo much time
 
*someone referenced some Gen 1 and 2 inconsistencies that I forgot like Reflect, for example. Just wanted to add this so nobody else comments about it
The thing is, the weirdest part about the Gen I Reflect TM being available to a large chunk of Pokemon, is that Let's Go gave the move back to all of those same Pokemon, only for Sword and Shield to take it away again. Not to mention Toxic was in Let's Go and everything that could learn new moves via TMs still got it.
 
There have been a few examples here and there, with Gen 1 Reflect certainly being the biggest; but stuff like Toxic here is by far the biggest example of what's being noted. I don't think that's unfair to point out.

Is Deoxys not obtainable currently? Likewise for Celibi? I'm assuming future events for them.
Those two plus the remaining Gen 4 mythicals are indeed the only currently unobtainable Pokémon between both versions
 
There have been a few examples here and there, with Gen 1 Reflect certainly being the biggest; but stuff like Toxic here is by far the biggest example of what's being noted. I don't think that's unfair to point out.


Those two plus the remaining Gen 4 mythicals are indeed the only currently unobtainable Pokémon between both versions
Guess we have to wait for events. Was hoping there were other ways to get other in game.
 
I'd just point you that Toxic isn't a first for this, other moves have appeared and disappeared as far as compatibility goes between generation (notably, mostly-Tutor-specific moves like Tailwind and Knock Off come and go, and notably both are absent this generation).

You'd be used to this if you ever played the actual competitive format instead of the unsupported ripoff that Smogon is.
6v6 singles doesn't exist. 6v6 doubles also doesn't exist.

The only competitive scenario is 4v4 doubles and 3v3 singles with generation-specific rules (aka, no transfer moves, ever).*
And "cutting" former TMs from movesets isn't new, someone probably remembers how Mega Kangaskhan went from broken to barely viable in a single Power Up Punch.


edit: * = Outside of the very rare occasional special event where they allow old generation pokemon or normally unallowed mythicals for the special vgc mode.
I mean..the fact that fans have to make their own meta tells you how shitty the "official" ones are. (And how popular that fan meta is) Honestly, I seriously wonder wtf you are even doing on this site. Everytime I see you post it is either an attack on someone, or an attack on the site.
 
The results are in.

First, let's understand the method. I pulled in a Togepi at 155 Happiness. The threshold for evolution is 160, so this was guaranteed to be under the cap.

As for how I got it above 180, I used Swift Feathers. According to Bulbapedia...
View attachment 386647

Source (With the other things that would break the cap in SwSh if you wanna check those): https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Friendship#Generation_VIII

Vitamins and Feathers do not break the cap in SwSh, otherwise, we'd certainly have heard an uproar about it now that Vitamins are the fastest way to EV train.

The choice of Togepi was also deliberate since Togetic is a happiness evo and I know for a fact you can have Togekiss without Affection boosts in SwSh since I have one.

I promptly chucked 30 Swift Feathers to it and ran to the first trainer I found, which by coincidence, were the Twins in front of Floaroma.

Togepi clearly shifted side to side while Shinx didn't move an inch. That's a clear sign of Affection kicking in.

After that, there was a message during the battle saying "Togepi looks like it wants to be petted..." And that was the kiss of death. Didn't even have time to evolve it. It was clearly between 180-219 Happiness and had affection boosts on it.

Therefore...

The Happiness caps present in SwSh to avoid Affection boosts are NOT present in BDSP.

As soon as any Pokémon hits 180 Happiness, regardless of method, it will have Amie boosts.



Following Pokémon are not a trigger, but will likely increase Happiness even faster.
For those who aren't checking the Playthrough thread...

Affection is nigh-unavoidable now. Happiness caps don't exist like in SwSh.
 
There are a lot of weird things going on with the moves. Return not being properly advertised is exactly why I mentioned it. It was on screen for one second, but why? It's not even in the game apparently, so why include it being used in a trailer?

Also, doesn't someone's Milotic have Calm Mind in their moveset? A move that Milotic has never been able to use? That's weird, almost as weird as me not realizing Milotic never had Calm Mind.

I wonder what'll happen to these moves and movesets when the game releases.
Is this true? Does Milotic really get Calm Mind now?? Holy.

I just saw it's also stated at serebii that there is a character in the game who uses calm mind milotic. Yet it does not appear that milotic can learn calm mind by TM at all? This is very odd and puzzling.
 
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As some of you may know, I was softlocked for a week because of Drifloon.

Since i have both Diamond and Pearl, i pulled out a big brain. I put my pearl on thursday 18, a few hours from friday 19, did the playthrough to galaxia team, defeated them, waited some hours and it worked and I've Drifloon.

If there's someone in my situation, and doesn't have a way of finding Drifloon online, tell me and I'll give you one to help you out of this shitty softlock.
 
I have given up on Burmy. Vespiquen & Cherrim will be my new best friends.

Also guess I'm using Ponyta because the fire type would be really nice for all these bronzors. I was going to get one out of the underground but suddenly all the pokemon are like level 27 and this game has the SWSH catch penalty anyway so I just grabebd one on route 206.

I'm probably going to pick up Swinub as my last one but uhhh later, when I am not running into level 29 swinubs.
 
I have given up on Burmy. Vespiquen & Cherrim will be my new best friends.

Also guess I'm using Ponyta because the fire type would be really nice for all these bronzors. I was going to get one out of the underground but suddenly all the pokemon are like level 27 and this game has the SWSH catch penalty anyway so I just grabebd one on route 206.

I'm probably going to pick up Swinub as my last one but uhhh later, when I am not running into level 29 swinubs.
The good news re:penalty is that either I'm the luckiest man ever or the catch rate penalty isn't a thing in the park (which has mostly level 70s so thank goodness?). It does feel like the Underground has the penalty though, yes.
 
The good news re:penalty is that either I'm the luckiest man ever or the catch rate penalty isn't a thing in the park (which has mostly level 70s so thank goodness?). It does feel like the Underground has the penalty though, yes.
The Penalty in SWSH is removed when you collect all the gym badges (or maybe beat Leon? cant remember) I believe.
 
I have given up on Burmy. Vespiquen & Cherrim will be my new best friends.

Also guess I'm using Ponyta because the fire type would be really nice for all these bronzors. I was going to get one out of the underground but suddenly all the pokemon are like level 27 and this game has the SWSH catch penalty anyway so I just grabebd one on route 206.

I'm probably going to pick up Swinub as my last one but uhhh later, when I am not running into level 29 swinubs.
It has the WHAT!?

How does it even work? I thought Under levels scaled on badges!
 
The Penalty in SWSH is removed when you collect all the gym badges (or maybe beat Leon? cant remember) I believe.
Really? Interesting, that would explain it then.

Yeah, catching Pokemon in the Underground right after a gym badge is usually rough if you aren't really overleveled. They seem to be based on what level they expect you to be at for the next gym. Gyms 2 and 3 have a huge gap so yeeeeaaaaahhhh....
 
It has the WHAT!?

How does it even work? I thought Under levels scaled on badges!
1 badge earned16-20
2 badges earned25-29
3 badges earned29-33
4 badges earned33-37
5 badges earned36-40
6 badges earned39-43
7 badges earned42-46
8 badges earned50-55
Elite Four Defeated58-63

You can do the mental math on how this shakes out

I actually noticed it before Gardenia when I tried to catch a couple level 20 mons and saw that they were just instantly breaking out. But I also thought it woudl stick around the early 20s for longer...oops!
 
How does it even work? I thought Under levels scaled on badges!
It does... but by scaling to a level way higher than the ones from the last Gym Leader. Imagine beating Gardenia's Level 22 Roserade, wanting to catch something in the Underground and then BAM! Level 29 Wild Pokémon.

At the same time, though, if you know your matchups, it's the best leveling spot in the game.
 

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